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Darwin_green
28-06-2010, 02:46
hey there, I'm thinking about joining the High elf bandwagon and I was planning on picking up a high elf Battalion. Since you would save around 35 bucks on it, the only thing you really get a deal on is the "free" Silver Helms.

so, is it really worth it, and what do I do with the silver helms? I was originally thinking of converting them into reavers with some extra quivers and other details.

also, what are the new bolt thrower rules like now, I keep forgetting to look at that section in the book at my LGS when I'm there.

HeroFox
28-06-2010, 14:26
The only thing Silver Helms are worth is for converting or counting as Dragon Princes.

WarhammerNoob4ever
28-06-2010, 16:51
i think ppl r really underestimating Silver Helms in 8ed....

in 7th, ya, DP > SH all the time

but now that u need 2 ranks to break ranks, i think SH arent bad

i can get 13 SH for the pts of 10 DP (assuming no command, which only favours SH anyways)

that means i can take 3 deathes w the SH for 0 dead from the DP before i lose rank breaking

if lookin at just 5-6 man units as missiles than yes, DP > SH, but as a flankin units, SH do have their place.....

and while SH might not be as killy as DP, they are still WS 4, STR 5 INT 5 ASF on the charge.... thats aint bad in any way

HeroFox
29-06-2010, 02:17
Um.. no. They're still lesser in every single way.

1. Dragon Princes have Ld.9.
2. Dragon Princes are immune to fire.
3. Dragon Princes are WS5. Hitting on 3s vs. WS4 is huge.
4. Dragon Princes have 2 attacks each.
5. Dragon Princes have I6.
6. Dragon Princes can carry a magical standard.
7. Dragon Prince Champions can carry items worth a damn.

You're wrong on the command favoring SHs since Musicians are a vital part of 8th, Champions can carry anything from a Gem of Courage, to a Skeinsilver to a Potion of Strength for S8 on the charge. Banners, Silver Helms wouldn't know a damn thing about Banners because they can't carry any.

Edit: Just noticed your name. Maybe what I just typed was a waste :(

TheDarkDaff
29-06-2010, 02:50
Um.. no. They're still lesser in every single way.

1. Dragon Princes have Ld.9.
2. Dragon Princes are immune to fire.
3. Dragon Princes are WS5. Hitting on 3s vs. WS4 is huge.
4. Dragon Princes have 2 attacks each.
5. Dragon Princes have I6.
6. Dragon Princes can carry a magical standard.
7. Dragon Prince Champions can carry items worth a damn.

You're wrong on the command favoring SHs since Musicians are a vital part of 8th, Champions can carry anything from a Gem of Courage, to a Skeinsilver to a Potion of Strength for S8 on the charge. Banners, Silver Helms wouldn't know a damn thing about Banners because they can't carry any.

Edit: Just noticed your name. Maybe what I just typed was a waste :(
Your points aren't really all that definative when you consider 8th Ed.
1. And the general on Large Target (which High Elves do quite nicely) gets an extended Ld bubble meaning this is worth less now
2. Breath Weapons are 1 use only so all you really have to look out for are Runed warmachines, some magic items and Daemons.
3. Depends what you are charging. Anything with WS4 or worse will most likely be a large stubborn infantry block which won't really care.
4. Only has any effect in the front rank, which means you are paying more for attacks you don't get to use. Sure you could go wider but then you don't break ranks.
5. Really only matters against Elves
6. This will just make the unit more expensive
7. Again just makes the unit more expensive

Reavers are also taking a hit with the new rules for breaking ranks, although they can now get out onto the flank very quickly now. Silver Helms would be a nice unit to pair up with some of your elite infantry to help them break the larger horde units. This is all making the assumption that a unit that has had it's flanks broken can't benefit from the new steadfast rule.

HeroFox
29-06-2010, 02:59
Cavalry in general got a hit in 8th Ed. There's no point stating the obvious.

Silver Helms and Dragon Princes are both cavalry. Moving into 8th, they are still cavalry. The only logic step is to compare unit vs unit.

The Dragon Princes are flat out better, worth more than the 7 extra points you pay for a Silver Helm.

316 points for a unit of 12x Silver Helms in FC.
410 points for a unit of 12x Dragon Princes in FC.

Silver Helms give you: 13 attacks at WS4 I5 S5 + horses.
Dragon Princes give you: 19 attacks at WS5 I6 S5 + horses.

vs. WS3, T3/4 units, Dragon Princes win.
vs. WS4, T3/4 units, Dragon Prices win more.
vs. anything with higher armor, Dragon Princes win more.
vs. Elves or equiv, Dragon Princes win.

Oh, and I'll add the fact that Lore of Metal/Fire doesn't facerape Dragon Princes in the way of Silver Helms.

Silver Helms are dismissed. I already stated my points above.

WarhammerNoob4ever
29-06-2010, 04:07
Cavalry in general got a hit in 8th Ed. There's no point stating the obvious.

Silver Helms and Dragon Princes are both cavalry. Moving into 8th, they are still cavalry. The only logic step is to compare unit vs unit.

The Dragon Princes are flat out better, worth more than the 7 extra points you pay for a Silver Helm.

316 points for a unit of 12x Silver Helms in FC.
410 points for a unit of 12x Dragon Princes in FC.

Silver Helms give you: 13 attacks at WS4 I5 S5 + horses.
Dragon Princes give you: 19 attacks at WS5 I6 S5 + horses.

vs. WS3, T3/4 units, Dragon Princes win.
vs. WS4, T3/4 units, Dragon Prices win more.
vs. anything with higher armor, Dragon Princes win more.
vs. Elves or equiv, Dragon Princes win.

Oh, and I'll add the fact that Lore of Metal/Fire doesn't facerape Dragon Princes in the way of Silver Helms.

Silver Helms are dismissed. I already stated my points above.

Im sorry, i have read ur HE blog and ur posts in the tactica, but it is posts like this that make new ppl fearful to post and assume units are better than others without actually looking at whats on paper....

ur unit of 12 DP is 100 pts more than the unit of 12 SH.... thats another BT or 2 eagles.... or 24 DP vs 24 SH, is 200 pts.... which is 4 eagles or 2 BT or even a unit of 12 white lions.....

in 7ed, yes, DP > SH, the 7 ppm in units of 5-6 was nothing, but 8ed is about bigger units in a lot of cases (due to breaking ranks, more shooting/increased TLOS, more extended combats etc) where those 7 pts start adding up.....

My post was not to say that SH > DP, just that with the lose of slot restrictions and the new game that is 8ed, SH need to be re-looked at, and not just dismissed out of hand bc they werent that great in 7ed.....

and that comment bout my name somehow making my post/ur response meaningless is just pathetic and sad..... i mean its a damn name on a forum.... it has no baring on the quality of my post....

Edit: Yes, SH are lesser than DP.... also lesser points....

HeroFox
29-06-2010, 04:34
Can you please form a complete sentence? Reading your posts physically hurts my eyes.

The point difference between SH and Dragon Princes is 100 points well spent.

You're saying that DP > SH in 7th Ed? What difference does that change in 8th? Cavalry rules changes both of them. Logically if they are both classed as cavalry, function in the same manner, are used in the same way, then it remains that DP still > SH.


Yes, SH are lesser than DP.... also lesser points....

Yes. People figured that out 3 years ago.

Send me a PM in a couple of months and let me know how they compare to Dragon Princes.

TheDarkDaff
29-06-2010, 07:17
Cavalry in general got a hit in 8th Ed. There's no point stating the obvious.It isn't just cavalry that got hit, units with multiple attacks also got hit. It is also very important because it fundamentally changes how to use Cavalry. In fact the most important aspects of cavalry are now movement, survivability and cost.


Silver Helms and Dragon Princes are both cavalry. Moving into 8th, they are still cavalry. The only logic step is to compare unit vs unit.Lets do that and compare the stats that actually matter for cav now.


The Dragon Princes are flat out better, worth more than the 7 extra points you pay for a Silver Helm.


316 points for a unit of 12x Silver Helms in FC.
410 points for a unit of 12x Dragon Princes in FC.

Silver Helms give you: 13 attacks at WS4 I5 S5 + horses.
Dragon Princes give you: 19 attacks at WS5 I6 S5 + horses.

vs. WS3, T3/4 units, Dragon Princes win.
vs. WS4, T3/4 units, Dragon Prices win more.
vs. anything with higher armor, Dragon Princes win more.
vs. Elves or equiv, Dragon Princes win.
These are useless in most cases. Let's compare the important stats.
Both have the same M value
Both have the same T
Both have the same armour save
DP's are immune to fire based attacks
SP's are significantly cheaper

SP's win because they are more survivable (ie cheaper means their are more of them to do the only really important thing for them to do in combat which is break an enemy's ranks).

Oh, and I'll add the fact that Lore of Metal/Fire doesn't facerape Dragon Princes in the way of Silver Helms.

Silver Helms are dismissed. I already stated my points above.
Lore of Metal has a 1 flaming spell out of 7 and there is no point even aiming a Fire wizard at DP so why bother. Shoot them with anything and once the unit is less than 10 strong it can almost be ignored.

geldedgoat
29-06-2010, 09:56
HeroFox, is your point so important that you must resort to being a complete jerk?

Darwin_green
29-06-2010, 23:53
...ok. let's imagine Dragon Princes don't exist. How would you use a unit of 8? Is the extra 4 attacks worth the lost of a rank bonus?

TheDarkDaff
30-06-2010, 01:05
...ok. let's imagine Dragon Princes don't exist. How would you use a unit of 8? Is the extra 4 attacks worth the lost of a rank bonus?

Simple answer is you wouldn't as anything less than 10 models strong is basically useless except as a warmachine hunter and to clear out enemy fast cav. You can do both things cheaper and better with other units. Buying an extra box for a 15 strong unit (covert the spare into a mounted noble) as you have a unit that can break ranks and stand up to a bit of punishment before it becomes to weak to function properly.

edit: It might actually be worth it to pick up 2 Battalion's which would give you a very solid base of a High Elf army. A single lare unit of 30 Spearmen (or covert them into Seaguard), 15 Silver helms to break ranks, 3x 10 man Archer units to provide some shooting with 2 bolt Throwers. Pick up a Mage or 2 and you are on your way.