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CKO
28-06-2010, 14:01
Several sources says that the Emperor instructed Rogal Dorn on how to build the Golden Throne, but it never says who built it.

Who do you think built the Golden Throne?

Stonerhino
28-06-2010, 14:18
Personal, I think the Golden Throne is an Old One invention to allow the creation of new Webway tunnels. This come mainly from "A Thousnad Sons" where the Emperor is using it to become "Master" of the Webway.

Project2501
28-06-2010, 14:19
Either the Ad-mech with Dorn supervising/lending a hand, or Best Buy's Geek Squad.

Kage2020
28-06-2010, 14:21
I just leave it as a remnant of older experiments by the Golden/Dark Age of Technology scientists that the Emperor subsequent co-opts. That isn't to say that it couldn't be an Old Ones invention, but my personal preference is to stay away from making the Old Ones--or the C'tan/Necrons--responsible for everything about the current 40k universe.

YMMV, though.

Oh, and it sucks as a device that was meant to preserve the life of the Emperor (even if it preserves his mind). Well, unless the Emperor was as dry as a stick before he went into the darned thing. :shifty: :eyebrows:

Kage

Iuris
28-06-2010, 14:26
Wasn't there a bit somewhere stating that the stasis cocoon that was used immediately on the emperor became the core of the golden throne?

Essentially, start with a simple stasis field generator used to preserve wounded, then work on supplying the soul within with energy in spite of the body dieing, and with time, thing becomes able to process thousands of psykers at a time.

Makaber
28-06-2010, 14:34
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor#The_Golden_Throne

Stonerhino
28-06-2010, 14:34
While I'm normaly quik to shoot down Old One/C'Tan theories too. In a Thousand Sons it sounds like it's a device that can create new Webway gates. This is something the Eldar can't even do anymore. It's also said that the Emperor found it and was trying to repair it.

So basicly it's older then the Emperor and uses warp technology that's greater then the Eldar's. Which screams Old Ones did it.

Despite the the seemingly lack of inventiveness of the Old Ones did it. The book was writen by the Golden pen of Graham McNeill and so will be carried over to more cannon sources at some point.

Kage2020
28-06-2010, 14:49
Wasn't there a bit somewhere stating that the stasis cocoon that was used immediately on the emperor became the core of the golden throne?
Well, excepting that it didn't do too good of a job since we are also given to understand that the Emperor could keep in contact with the material world while "some of his cells were alive" (paraphrased, Lost and the Damned around p271 or so). His communications became less and less frequent, so more and more cells were dying...

Other than that, I pretty much agree. :D


In a Thousand Sons it sounds like it's a device that can create new Webway gates. This is something the Eldar can't even do anymore.
This is a contentious statement since there is some evidence that they can create new Webway portals, even if it is circumstantial at best. (Watson's Harlequin and the construction of the craftworld/stage with all the Webway portals therein...)

Even if you take it as a fact that they cannot create Webway gates any more (which might suit the theme of the Eldar) they could do it in the past. Well, that depends on how much you buy into the fact that the Old Ones "did it" (create the Webway) and that the Eldar are really just a bunch of a parasites living off their technology. Each has some traction in the 'fluff.'


It's also said that the Emperor found it and was trying to repair it.
Which certainly doesn't exclude the fact that it is remnant technology from the G/DAoT (or the War in Heaven, for that matter).


So basicly it's older then the Emperor and uses warp technology that's greater then the Eldar's. Which screams Old Ones did it.
Errrr... I'm not sure about that "greater than the Eldar's" bit, but then again I still haven't forced myself to read through Collected Visions. Of course, that a publication focused on the Imperium would end up belittling the technology of the Eldar would not be a surprise to me (cf. Dark Mechanicum).

Of course, YMMV. This is simultaneously the most fun and most frustrating thing about the 40k universe. :D

Kage

will564752
28-06-2010, 14:59
A Thousand Sons states that the Emperor unearthed the Golden Throne from a desert on Terra during the Unification Period. As to who originally created it, we havn't a clue - although from its location it would have likely been a remnant of the Dark/Golden Age of Technology it would seem.

Iuris
28-06-2010, 15:14
Well, excepting that it didn't do too good of a job since we are also given to understand that the Emperor could keep in contact with the material world while "some of his cells were alive" (paraphrased, Lost and the Damned around p271 or so). His communications became less and less frequent, so more and more cells were dying...

Other than that, I pretty much agree.

No one says they kept the stasis field ON all the time, just that is started that way. Hmm, actually, I do wonder exactly how stasis fields affect primarchs and Emperors. After all, Papa Smurf on Macragge seems to be ignoring the stasis if he's healing slowly... IF he is healing slowly...

will564752
28-06-2010, 15:16
Hes not healing slowly though he is, its impossible in stasis. After all who would believe the eye-witness accounts of deluded and fanatic pilgrims?

Hunger
28-06-2010, 15:24
Swisshorn Watches made this one (http://www.numismaticnews.net/ideas/content/binary/golden%20bathroom.jpg).

Idaan
28-06-2010, 15:36
In a Thousand Sons it sounds like it's a device that can create new Webway gates. This is something the Eldar can't even do anymore.

Eldar do it all the time, from the portable gates used by Ulthwe Strike Forces, through larger ones mounted on Storm Serpents and starships, up to the biggest ones. It's just that don't rebuild it in entirety because they're too fractured as a race and have more immediate concerns.

Stonerhino
28-06-2010, 15:43
The problem with the Golden Throne being from the Dark Age of Technology. Is that if the Humans had the means to create Webway gates then why wouldn't they??? Also if the technology existed durring that time frame then the Emperor would know how it worked and simply repaired it. Since he was alive way before that.

We know that the Webway itself dates back to the Old Ones. And they used it to travel across the galaxy, maybe further. To do this they would either need to travel FTL to another planet and build a gate there. Or have a means to create a gate from their point of origin and "Tunnel" to the new planet. The problem with the first one is that Warp FTL travel would have been a lot slower back them. We know that durring the time of the Old Ones, the warp was calm. Without the warp currents to speed up travel it would take longer to get from point A to B. But both are still possible. If the second idea is correct then it sheds new light on how powerful an item such as the Golden Throne could be.

The Eldar can not make new Webway gates and have in the past destroyed them to prevent the Dark Eldar from using it. What the Eldar can do however is create tempory portals. Such as the DE webway Portal and the Eldar super heavy tank with a portal on it's back. (Forgot it's name) Both of these require some Eldar force to be present at the target location.

Iuris
28-06-2010, 15:47
Hes not healing slowly though he is, its impossible in stasis. After all who would believe the eye-witness accounts of deluded and fanatic pilgrims?
What other source of news is there, anyway? :)

ryng_sting
28-06-2010, 17:38
It seems the Emperor found the Golden Throne rather than building it himself, or getting the AM to do it. That's not to say he didn't tinker with the thing, make a few modifications here and there.

For my money, it probably was the Old Ones. It makes more sense than having the dying Emperor telling Dorn how to build the thing straight after his scrap with Horus.

Idaan
28-06-2010, 17:48
We know that the Webway itself dates back to the Old Ones. And they used it to travel across the galaxy, maybe further. To do this they would either need to travel FTL to another planet and build a gate there. Or have a means to create a gate from their point of origin and "Tunnel" to the new planet. The problem with the first one is that Warp FTL travel would have been a lot slower back them. We know that durring the time of the Old Ones, the warp was calm. Without the warp currents to speed up travel it would take longer to get from point A to B. But both are still possible. If the second idea is correct then it sheds new light on how powerful an item such as the Golden Throne could be.
Nope. The current Webway was created by Eldar:

Created with technologies once taught to the Eldar by the races known as the Old Ones


The Eldar can not make new Webway gates and have in the past destroyed them to prevent the Dark Eldar from using it. What the Eldar can do however is create tempory portals. Such as the DE webway Portal and the Eldar super heavy tank with a portal on it's back. (Forgot it's name) Both of these require some Eldar force to be present at the target location.
Source maybe?

Kage2020
28-06-2010, 18:39
The problem with the Golden Throne being from the Dark Age of Technology. Is that if the Humans had the means to create Webway gates then why wouldn't they???
One possible justification would be in the realisation that quite simply the G/DAoT society just didn't realise that it could be used for such an end as creating a Webway portal.


Also if the technology existed durring that time frame then the Emperor would know how it worked and simply repaired it. Since he was alive way before that.
Alternately, he didn't become aware of the Eldar Webway before that. Another alternative to that is that before the Fall, the Eldar were quite simply way too powerful for him to begin stepping on their toes in such an overt fashion.


We know that the Webway itself dates back to the Old Ones.
While there is some evidence for that in the 'fluff,' there is also evidence that the Eldar took up the Old Ones' mastery of psychic engineering and refined it beyond even what they had achieved. One common fan speculation is that this means that the Webway is a derivative of the older and slightly shakier "Warp Gate Network" that was mentioned in the original WFB/WFRP background.


To do this they would either need to travel FTL to another planet and build a gate there. Or have a means to create a gate from their point of origin and "Tunnel" to the new planet.
The Eldar can use both possibilities, as far as I'm aware. I do know that the Eldar can use conventional warp drives, even if they are want to do it. IIRC it is also possible for them to shape portals without the need of a direct gate, but my sourcing on that would be a bit more shaky.


If the second idea is correct then it sheds new light on how powerful an item such as the Golden Throne could be.
Or, alternatively, it's just a highly experimental warp drive that can operate in a gravitational well.


The Eldar can not make new Webway gates and have in the past destroyed them to prevent the Dark Eldar from using it.
In terms of fan speculation, I have my doubts about this and, once again, can only cite the example from Harlequin.

Kage

Vikingkingq
29-06-2010, 01:42
Several sources says that the Emperor instructed Rogal Dorn on how to build the Golden Throne, but it never says who built it.

Who do you think built the Golden Throne?

Keep in mind that there are two definitions of built the Golden Throne.

There's the question of who built the artifact that the Emperor was going to use to construct a human webway for the Imperium, and there's the question of who adapted the now-broken artifact (thanks a lot, Magnus) into the life-support device for the Emperor.

For the first, most of the options have already been discussed.

For the second, it's most likely that Dorn plus some AdMechs built the thing from the God-Emperor's instructions.

Stonerhino
29-06-2010, 14:23
Nope. The current Webway was created by Eldar:Nope it was the Old One's master of the webway that allowed them to defeat the Necrontry~Necron codex. This was long before the creation of the Eldar.

It was created by technology once taught to the Eldar by the Old ones~Eldar codex. Just because the Old ones taught the Eldar to create new webway tunnels does not mean that the Eldar scrapped the old Old One's webway and created their own. Nor does it mean that the Eldar still are able to build them. The shape and form of the webway is not understood by modern Eldar (Also in the Eldar codex). If they still had a full working knowledge of the Webway then they could just create new paths instead of possibly getting lost in some forgotten tunnel.


Source maybe?I believe it was in the Eldar codex just before codex craftwold Eldar. It's been a long time so it may even be an artical from a WD. But the story goes an Eldar force goes to destroy a Webway gate. When the farseer is asked why. She says because their Dark Kin will one day use it and they don't have the strength of arms to keep a constant vigil.


Alternately, he didn't become aware of the Eldar Webway before that. Another alternative to that is that before the Fall, the Eldar were quite simply way too powerful for him to begin stepping on their toes in such an overt fashion.While I will agree that the Emperor would tread lightly. The human race would not. Lets face it we have a "Manifest Destiny" to do what we what reguardless of the long term outcome. This would inclued stepping on Eldar Toes. At least long enough to **** them off and get smaked back down.

Kage2020
29-06-2010, 14:54
Nope it was the Old One's master of the webway that allowed them to defeat the Necrontry~Necron codex. This was long before the creation of the Eldar.

It was created by technology once taught to the Eldar by the Old ones~Eldar codex. Just because the Old ones taught the Eldar to create new webway tunnels does not mean that the Eldar scrapped the old Old One's webway and created their own. Nor does it mean that the Eldar still are able to build them. The shape and form of the webway is not understood by modern Eldar (Also in the Eldar codex). If they still had a full working knowledge of the Webway then they could just create new paths instead of possibly getting lost in some forgotten tunnel.
One thing to throw out into your sphere of consciousness, if you were not aware of it already, is that there is alternate 'fluff' that is as equally valid that states quite categorically (read: it can be interpreted!) that the Eldar took up the technology of the Old Ones (well, Old Slann) and went beyond it and in so doing created the Webway (Harelquin article, WD 105 or 115). Again, there are numerous ways to interpret it since, now, that is just once source against a balance of materials that has only really been touched recently.

So, yes, some people take Codex Necrons at face value, a publication which seems somewhat clearly to try and tie everything to the War in Heaven, and thus the Eldar are little more than dying caretakers. Others see the material that states that the Eldar created the Webway and went beyond the work of those whose technology they took as their own. Yet others try and negotiate the 'fluff,' hence the idea that the Old Ones/Slann create the Warp Gate Network (which at least partially collapses in the War in Heaven), and the Eldar look to this with their advancing "science" and create the Webway over its framework; they go beyond it, but base it on earlier materials.

When constructing ones interpretation of the 40k universe nothing is really that clear cut. Sure there are some things that everyone agrees on, such as the Emperor is a corpsicle, the Space Marines are uber, the Eldar are dying, etc. etc. What varies is just which bits of 'fluff' are used to support the individual interpretation. Cherry picking is a necessity in the 40k universe when you begin to look beyond the superficialities. (Of course, there are some that do not believe this is the case, which is yet another interpretation and perspective. :D)

Which is to say that you're right... and wrong... from a certain perspective. Take for example your paragraph:


I believe it was in the Eldar codex just before codex craftwold Eldar. It's been a long time so it may even be an artical from a WD. But the story goes an Eldar force goes to destroy a Webway gate. When the farseer is asked why. She says because their Dark Kin will one day use it and they don't have the strength of arms to keep a constant vigil.
Just as presented above, there are many different potential interpretations as to the reason why this might occur. For example, one might point out that Webway gates can and are sealed, and this technique is used in the Eye of Terror to "seal away" the Crone Worlds and Daemon Worlds. One might counter that with the idea that they will open to Eldar, and Dark Eldar are Eldar. One could then counter that with the idea that it would not be unreasonable to leave another type of guard (cf. A Thousand Sons) or create some form of magical shield...

Just throwing out some options. I wouldn't want to guess which one is correct.


While I will agree that the Emperor would tread lightly. The human race would not. Lets face it we have a "Manifest Destiny" to do what we what reguardless of the long term outcome. This would inclued stepping on Eldar Toes. At least long enough to **** them off and get smaked back down.
That is certainly another interpretation.

Kage

MagosHereticus
29-06-2010, 15:05
i prefer the notion that the emperor built the darned thing from the ground up using knowledge that he had uncovered over the aeons and possibly using artefacts he found during the great crusades to help him finish it off, as in he was retracing the foot steps of the old ones on his path towards divinity (the old ones blending science and magic in a way that took them beyond that limitations of mere mortals and made them they gods they became)

then again i'm an emperor fanboy and i always prefer the interpretation that portrays the emperor as as the most godly and most powerful

Idaan
29-06-2010, 15:20
Nope it was the Old One's master of the webway that allowed them to defeat the Necrontry~Necron codex. This was long before the creation of the Eldar.Hence my use of "current". It's not unthinkable for the Old One webway to collapse during the Enslaver Plague or 59 millions of years of disuse after they disappeared and before the Eldar empire emerged.


It was created by technology once taught to the Eldar by the Old ones~Eldar codex. Just because the Old ones taught the Eldar to create new webway tunnels does not mean that the Eldar scrapped the old Old One's webway and created their own. Nor does it mean that the Eldar still are able to build them. Why would Phil Kelly phrase it like that then, rather than saying that it was created by OOs and maintained by Eldar? The way it is now, clearly implies that it was Eldar who built it.

The shape and form of the webway is not understood by modern Eldar (Also in the Eldar codex). If they still had a full working knowledge of the Webway then they could just create new paths instead of possibly getting lost in some forgotten tunnel.
The shape and form of it is not understood because they have no maps and the tunnels have fallen into disrepair, some have shrunk or collapsed during the Fall, and some have gained strange abilities, like making time stand still (The Crossroads of Inertia). That doesn't mean they can't create new tunnels, just that they don't have time and resources to repair it completely. Just like the fact that Russians have no complete maps of Moscow underground doesn't mean they can't create new subway tunnels.


I believe it was in the Eldar codex just before codex craftwold Eldar. It's been a long time so it may even be an artical from a WD. But the story goes an Eldar force goes to destroy a Webway gate. When the farseer is asked why. She says because their Dark Kin will one day use it and they don't have the strength of arms to keep a constant vigil.I meant source for the statement that they can't create new tunnels anymore. The story you mentioned (Codex Eldar 3e, p33) doesn't mention that. It just says that although they know the place of the attack, they don't know the time and so can't afford to guard it indefinitely. Still nothing about not being able to create new portals and tunnels.

Stonerhino
29-06-2010, 17:31
The story you mentioned (Codex Eldar 3e, p33) doesn't mention that. It just says that although they know the place of the attack, they don't know the time and so can't afford to guard it indefinitely. Still nothing about not being able to create new portals and tunnels.If destroying the gate stops the DE from EVER using it. Implies that once destroyed a gate can NEVER be reopened. If it was as simple as just creating a new gate on the planet then there would be no point in destroying it in the first place.


Why would Phil Kelly phrase it like that then, rather than saying that it was created by OOs and maintained by Eldar? The way it is now, clearly implies that it was Eldar who built it.Yet it predates the Eldar by thousands if not millions of years. The simple fact is that the Old Ones created the Webway and then taught the Eldar how to use and build new tunnels. Also, I'm not saying that the Eldar never knew how to build gates. Just that at present as a greater whole they can no longer do it. The Harliquin probably can and with enough research in the Black Library you could probably did up how to do it.

But if you want more reasons as to believe that the Eldar can not longer make gates. In the newest Eldar codex, it states that the Eldar can use "Normal" warp travel. It also states that it is "Extremely difficult" for the Eldar to reach worlds that have no Webway gates on them. If it is so hard for the Eldar to reach non-gate worlds why would they not just make a gate and make travel there safer and faster in the future. I mean why risk Eldar lives traveling through the Warp when it's so dangerous for them???

Just as it's not unthinkable for the Old One's Webway to collapse. It's just as likely that it's the same Webway. The birth of Slaanesh did not destroy the Webway even if it broke down the barriers in some places. The crazy stuff that happened durring the fall was way worse then the Enslavers. Since the Enslavers still exist in modern 40k.

Edit:
Not trying to rude or say that sighting a source is pointless. But the most current fluff is what's cannon. So compairing a WD from the late 80's vs a newer codex, the newer codex wins out.

Kage2020
29-06-2010, 20:04
Not trying to rude or say that sighting a source is pointless. But the most current fluff is what's cannon. So compairing a WD from the late 80's vs a newer codex, the newer codex wins out.
I really don't want to drag this up again and again, but this is merely stating the stance of "Revisionism," or the idea that "new is true." It has been multiply indicated from numerous individuals that this is not the case, or at least the universe is built on "half lies and truths," a statement that has then extended to the idea of "What is canon?" and the simple response of it's all relevant and equally true... or false. This makes many people uncomfortable, but it's simply just how it seems to operate in the 40k universe and which has a positive and negative side. On the positive side, as above, you get to cherry-pick an interpretation of the universe that you prefer. On the negative side you're going to get people tell you that the 'fluff' isn't true, isn't true any more, that your interpretation is nothing like what the 40k universe is (they just don't speak the "for them" caveat), etc.

If you don't like that? Well, I can empathise with that. It's simultaneously the most frustrating and yet most empancipating part of GW publications. :D

On the bright side it stimulates discussion and creation; on the negative side, it can lead to arguments rather than debates. In short, "Buggered if you do, buggered if you don't." It just comes to a point that you have to realise that never the twain shall meet (interpretations, that is). Thus, is it a question of being right or of exploring possibilities and thoughts?


If destroying the gate stops the DE from EVER using it. Implies that once destroyed a gate can NEVER be reopened. If it was as simple as just creating a new gate on the planet then there would be no point in destroying it in the first place.
Yes, you're right. There is no point in destroying it in the first place. The 40k 'fluff' is not consistent on this point, with some sources suggesting that they can be built and others indicating that there is some difficulty, or even that it might be impossible.

Personally? I would imagine that the constructing of a static Gate is something that has a substantial knock on effect--it's not just about one gate. Of course, we're automatically getting into fan interpretation, which means that it is getting less relevant to what is or what isn't said. Of course, since both stances have been mentioned anyway...


In the newest Eldar codex, it states that the Eldar can use "Normal" warp travel.
This has been a part of the 'fluff' for quite some time.


If it is so hard for the Eldar to reach non-gate worlds why would they not just make a gate and make travel there safer and faster in the future.
Why do they want to go to the world in the first place? Is it a one off? Do they wish to waste the resources to build one (there's a glitch in this question!)? Again, there are a number of possibilities.


I mean why risk Eldar lives traveling through the Warp when it's so dangerous for them???
Why risk Eldar lives in paper armour if it is so dangerous? :P


Just as it's not unthinkable for the Old One's Webway to collapse. It's just as likely that it's the same Webway.
Except some of the collateral 'fluff' indicates that the Old Ones Warp Gate Network--call it Webway if you must--did collapse, or at least partially so. Of course, this brings in older 'fluff' and the tenuous connection to the Old World of WFRP/WFB, but at the same time while the distance has increased (and is amusingly closing once again) it was there at one point.

Now? It just becomes fan speculation either way.


The birth of Slaanesh did not destroy the Webway even if it broke down the barriers in some places. The crazy stuff that happened durring the fall was way worse then the Enslavers. Since the Enslavers still exist in modern 40k.
That very much seems to be a value judgement on your own behalf. I'm not saying that you're wrong, even if I disagree with you, but there are certainly other interpretations and perspectives to be had in this.

Given the direction that this is taking, I must just agree to disagree and go back to writing a fan supplement. :D

Kage

randian
29-06-2010, 23:37
For my money, it probably was the Old Ones. It makes more sense than having the dying Emperor telling Dorn how to build the thing straight after his scrap with Horus.
I believe the life preservation bit was built by Dorn. I don't think that was originally part of the webway creation device, though why it needed to be attached to the webway creation device is unclear. Given the Emperor's allegedly mortal wounds, I do wonder how Dorn could possibly have constructed such a complex device in a day or two (timeframe implied by severity of wounds).

But that leads to another question: why couldn't the Emperor heal himself or get another psyker to do it for him? The fluff makes no mention of this even being attempted. Healing even near-fatal wounds is a well-known psyker ability, and as far as I can tell the Emperor possessed every "school" of psyker ability. Presumably he would have had strong psykers in his retinue other than Malcador. It makes me wonder whether the description of the Emperor being down to "his last few cells" is made out of ignorance, and the Emperor couldn't be healed because he doesn't have a biological body like a human does.

ashendant
29-06-2010, 23:54
maybe they can rebuild the "door" but not the "corridor".

What i mean is that they might be able to build portal to the nearest webway connection.

Stonerhino
30-06-2010, 13:45
call it Webway if you must--did collapse, or at least partially so.The back story in the Necron codex says "Webway portals"~just info.


I really don't want to drag this up again and again, but this is merely stating the stance of "Revisionism," or the idea that "new is true." It has been multiply indicated from numerous individuals that this is not the case, or at least the universe is built on "half lies and truths," a statement that has then extended to the idea of "What is canon?" and the simple response of it's all relevant and equally true... or false. This makes many people uncomfortable, but it's simply just how it seems to operate in the 40k universeWhile true in many ways there is also a down side. Basicly, if you consider everything ever said to still be cannon then you could end up with a complety different view of things then someone who just read all the current information. This is not to say that old fluff is meaningless. But when there is new fluff that says something different then old fluff. The new fluff wins out.


On the negative side you're going to get people tell you that the 'fluff' isn't true, isn't true any more, that your interpretation is nothing like what the 40k universe is (they just don't speak the "for them" caveat), etc.I still see this a positive. If everyone thought the same thing then there would be nothing to talk about.

SeaSwift
30-06-2010, 14:41
But that leads to another question: why couldn't the Emperor heal himself or get another psyker to do it for him? The fluff makes no mention of this even being attempted. Healing even near-fatal wounds is a well-known psyker ability, and as far as I can tell the Emperor possessed every "school" of psyker ability. Presumably he would have had strong psykers in his retinue other than Malcador. It makes me wonder whether the description of the Emperor being down to "his last few cells" is made out of ignorance, and the Emperor couldn't be healed because he doesn't have a biological body like a human does.

Hadn't he been wounded by the vessel of all 4 Chaos gods? That would be at least as powerful as the Anathema, which managed to all but kill Horus, and the wound couldn't be healed.

Kage2020
30-06-2010, 14:54
The back story in the Necron codex says "Webway portals"~just info.
Yes, I realise this. As I'm not a "revisionist," willing to discard the older materials for the newer ones as a matter of course, the word that they use isn't as meaningful as the interesting potentials that could be constructed by blending the various editions together (for me). After all "warp gates" can mean many things depending on which edition you're listening to.


While true in many ways there is also a down side. Basicly, if you consider everything ever said to still be cannon then you could end up with a complety different view of things then someone who just read all the current information.
Isn't this the situation that you describe that allows discussion?


But when there is new fluff that says something different then old fluff. The new fluff wins out.
Again, that is just your bias. My own is "reverse revisionism," or the idea that the material that I prefer (the older material) is true, and the newer material adds more information that should be considered in the context with all the older materials. If there is something that contradicts with this, I consider it and try and negotiate it.

It's not the 40k of everyone, but then again the latest version of 40k is not really 40k to me. Again, to me. Your mileage is almost certainly going to vary in this regard.

Indeed, one might say that all 'fluff' is there for is to offer inspiration for the fans to create background (personal interpretation). Again, though, YMMV and I'm certain that this is the case for some.


I still see this a positive. If everyone thought the same thing then there would be nothing to talk about.
So, then. What's the problem of using the older materials? "Revisionism" just becomes a point that can be brought out to say, "You're wrong" rather than just being another point of evidence in the discussion.

Ah well, suffice to say that we must agree to disagree. For now, though, I can see this delving into that "other discussion," where I would not want it to go. The current temp of the forums seems to be about what is right and what is wrong, rather than what could be...

/Kage

Idaan
30-06-2010, 16:02
This is not to say that old fluff is meaningless. But when there is new fluff that says something different then old fluff. The new fluff wins out.
So how about the new Eldar Codex being newer than Necron Codex? Clearly, it is both newer and in agreement with old fluff, like 2e and 3e. It's the Necron Codex that's the odd one out.

But yeah, mix-and-matching sources just to fit your vision and then trying to argue with people by arbitrarily discarding the sources they use is the way to go.