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Trick
28-06-2010, 20:01
Couldn't find anything on this in the forums, but...
Can I take Ogre Kingdoms DoW units in an Empire army using the current book?
The OK entry states you need the army book to include DoW as an option in the Rare section, which Empire does not. Does this therefore discount Maneaters and the like as an option?
Cheers,

Trick

shelfunit.
28-06-2010, 20:05
As there are no options in the Empire book to take any dogs of war I personally would think the answer is no. Although I'm sure someone will disagree.

Lordsaradain
28-06-2010, 20:24
I'd say yes as it is stated in the OK book that units can be fielded as rare choices in other armies, but I'm not positive what has precedence.

Magos Saphentos
28-06-2010, 20:26
i may be wrong but under 8th ed which isn't too far away, you can take allies and i believe ogres are one of the 'neutral' lists that can be taken as allies so they should be available to the empire . I can't remember for certain so don't quote me on this ;)

Tokamak
28-06-2010, 20:27
No it can't, if an army can't do DoW, which all the 7th edition books can't, the ogres are being phased out. There's hope the new armybook comes up with a less stupid rule though.

Tae
28-06-2010, 20:30
i may be wrong but under 8th ed which isn't too far away, you can take allies and i believe ogres are one of the 'neutral' lists that can be taken as allies so they should be available to the empire .

The allies rules are intended for multi-player team games, rather than 2 armies as part of the same list. Though obviously people are permitted to do what they want against their friends, just don't expect it to be acceptable in a pick up and play game.


I can't remember for certain so don't quote me on this ;)

Whoops :p

SilentCivilian
28-06-2010, 20:43
I regularly play against an Empire army that fields Iron Guts. In fact he is taking this army to a store tournament to try win a copy of the new book. So under 7th yes you can Sadly this argument may not be valid once 8th comes out. In theory and having not read the new book yet i would say the allies system should allow it at least until the new OK book is released. Ask your opponent or event organiser first though. Usually the safest bet when it comes to these situations. If it was the diffrence between getting a casual game and not then i think most people would be ok with it.

GodlessM
28-06-2010, 20:49
As there are no options in the Empire book to take any dogs of war I personally would think the answer is no. Although I'm sure someone will disagree.

This is the official answer alright ut people still play it otherwise.

shelfunit.
28-06-2010, 21:24
It even states in the ogre book that "this unit may be taken as a DOW choice in an army list with the appropriate option" so unless a book still has DOW as a rare choice option - Dwarfs for example - then no they can not be taken.

Trick
28-06-2010, 21:54
Cheers guys. Shame about that, seemed like a characterful choice. Will see if anything comes of the erratas in the future.

Thanks again.

Trick

decker_cky
28-06-2010, 21:58
That's not even the official answer. GW had posted on the website previously that the DoW entry was sufficient. And read the ogres mercenary rule - it says they can be taken in any army. Not just armies with the Dogs of War entry.

shelfunit.
28-06-2010, 22:13
That's not even the official answer. GW had posted on the website previously that the DoW entry was sufficient. And read the ogres mercenary rule - it says they can be taken in any army. Not just armies with the Dogs of War entry.

The quote was just that - a quote. From the ogre army book. Infront of me. It says the same thing on pg 67, which I assume is what you are refering to.

EDIT: Also what is this "ogre mercenary" rule? The only sections in the ogre book describe ogres in other armies are as DOW choices

kramplarv
29-06-2010, 01:58
No. The rules for DoW are now found in the DoW documents. There are no more any need for the army book to have DoW-options. The DoW-document will tell which armies who can take which units and what slot they take.

That's the official stance of GW. Find your DoW-unit, read it's rules. If it says you can take it in an army, you can. Regardless of what the empire book or OnG book says. (for example. the DoW-giant. it can be fielded in an Empire army. or whatever.)

@shelfunit: the ogre mercenray rule are found at the DoW-ogres. Which can be found on GW websites. They say something like "A unit of Iron Guts may be taken by any army for X cost and they will use up an rare slot in your army".

it is a VERY common misconception that DoW are "not allowed " or "outphased". In fact, they DoW have been expanded last 5 years. :)

edit: Below I will quote from the official Dogs of War rules written by Alessio Cavatore.

first how to hire hired swords. They say in the DoW document that they have changed the process from how it was in the beginning. So the "dow-entry" in the army books have no meaning anymore. look below.


the rules for fielding Dogs of War and Regiments
of Renown in non Dogs of War armies are clearly explained
in this article and in the For Hire paragraph of each
regiment in the following Regiments of Renown section.

then

Fielding ‘Dogs of War’ units
in other Warhammer armies

Empire, any Chaos, Dark Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts, Khemri,
Dwarfs, and Lizardmen armies can field any unit from the Dogs
of War army list.

so. An empire army may take a unit of iron Guts as a Rare choice. A unit of maneaters takes two rare choices. Since the iron Guts and amneaters are dogs of war and thus follows the Dogs of war rules. Which have been changed since the Ogre Kingdom book came out. The DoW rules are those we use here since they clearly define how to select Dogs of war.

shelfunit.
29-06-2010, 07:59
That's the official stance of GW. Find your DoW-unit, read it's rules. If it says you can take it in an army, you can. Regardless of what the empire book or OnG book says. (for example. the DoW-giant. it can be fielded in an Empire army. or whatever.)

@shelfunit: the ogre mercenray rule are found at the DoW-ogres. Which can be found on GW websites. They say something like "A unit of Iron Guts may be taken by any army for X cost and they will use up an rare slot in your army".

it is a VERY common misconception that DoW are "not allowed " or "outphased". In fact, they DoW have been expanded last 5 years. :)

edit: Below I will quote from the official Dogs of War rules written by Alessio Cavatore.

so. An empire army may take a unit of iron Guts as a Rare choice. A unit of maneaters takes two rare choices. Since the iron Guts and amneaters are dogs of war and thus follows the Dogs of war rules. Which have been changed since the Ogre Kingdom book came out. The DoW rules are those we use here since they clearly define how to select Dogs of war.

If so then all and sundry have my appologies, do you have a link to the DOW rules you mention? I can't seem to find them on the GW site.

shelfunit.
29-06-2010, 08:10
@shelfunit: the ogre mercenray rule are found at the DoW-ogres. Which can be found on GW websites. They say something like "A unit of Iron Guts may be taken by any army for X cost and they will use up an rare slot in your army"."

Fielding ‘Dogs of War’ units
in other Warhammer armies

Empire, any Chaos, Dark Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts, Khemri,
Dwarfs, and Lizardmen armies can field any unit from the Dogs
of War army list.

so. An empire army may take a unit of iron Guts as a Rare choice. A unit of maneaters takes two rare choices. Since the iron Guts and amneaters are dogs of war and thus follows the Dogs of war rules. Which have been changed since the Ogre Kingdom book came out. The DoW rules are those we use here since they clearly define how to select Dogs of war.

If you are refering to the DOW army book in WD, then your quote in bold sadly defeats your argument, as ironguts and maneaters are not in the DOW army list, they are in the Ogre army book.

Walgis
29-06-2010, 08:14
i hope they will let take ogres in 8 ed i would realy like a horde unit of them in my LM army :)

shelfunit.
29-06-2010, 08:19
i hope they will let take ogres in 8 ed i would realy like a horde unit of them in my LM army :)

Indeed. and sorry for all the rules "lawyering" I seem to be attempting. Personally I would love the erratas to re-introduce all the options for DOW (say 10% points) for appropriate armies. The empire should have access to all ogres and numerous other units, as should most other races.

Trick
29-06-2010, 10:55
I couldn't find any Dogs of War documents on the GW UK site, but this FAQ entry in the Ogre Kingdoms FAQ references their inclusion in Orc & Goblin armies which also lack the DoW option in the Rare section...

Q. If a unit of Ironguts is selected as a Dogs of War unit,
may they choose a magic standard? If yes, may they
select it from the army they are being included with?
For example, if selected in an Orcs & Goblins army,
may they select the Banner of Butchery? Or, may a unit
of Ironguts selected as a Dogs of War unit select a
banner from the Ogre Kingdoms book?

A. A single Irongut Dogs of War unit per army may select
a magic banner from the Ogre Kingdoms or Common
magic item lists as described in their entry.

At a stretch, that says to me that Ogres are still fine to include in the relevant 7th edition books, as intended but I would prefer a more clearly defined ruling if anyone can link one...

Trick

kramplarv
29-06-2010, 10:57
They are all over the internet... Just search for them on google or any torrent-tracker adn you should be fine. They are freeware just like mordheim or necromunda etc. Otherwise I have'm on my hdd so I can send them over.

edit: @ogres being in Ok book. yes. the units themselves are in the armybook. But the OK armybook says that several units may be Dogs of War. And when they are dogs of war they follow dogs of war rules. :)

Freman Bloodglaive
29-06-2010, 11:09
Go to the Dogs of War (http://www.dogsofwaronline.com/forum/index.php) forum and ask Bilbo.

shelfunit.
29-06-2010, 11:11
They are all over the internet... Just search for them on google or any torrent-tracker adn you should be fine. They are freeware just like mordheim or necromunda etc. Otherwise I have'm on my hdd so I can send them over.

edit: @ogres being in Ok book. yes. the units themselves are in the armybook. But the OK armybook says that several units may be Dogs of War. And when they are dogs of war they follow dogs of war rules. :)

Which again say they may generally only be taken in the books with the appropriate choices for DOW in the rare, again this is poorly written and can be taken both ways. As for following the DOW rules, they say only those in the DOW army list may be taken, there is only a specific type of ogre in the DOW army list, not the one in the Ogre book.

EDIT: Due to the ambiguous (sp?) and contradictory nature of the rules that I have just read, I will just say here that I am just expressing my opinion of them, and not saying my views are fact.

EDIT 2 : And also as a gamer first, I would have no issue with someone actually playing DOW in their lists against me, as above all I feel that despite the ambiguity of the rules as written, their intent is (as I now see :) ) clear.

Trick
29-06-2010, 12:35
Go to the Dogs of War (http://www.dogsofwaronline.com/forum/index.php) forum and ask Bilbo.

Now I can't help but feel part of some mystical quest...

Trick

Frankly
29-06-2010, 12:43
Indeed. and sorry for all the rules "lawyering" I seem to be attempting.

Its great that there are people out there willing to look this stuff up for the rest of lazy fellas to lazy to do it themselves.

Me<<<<<lazy. :D

Wakerofgods
29-06-2010, 13:18
Well the wording of the rules does seem to imply that you can't (I just looked at my own ogres book)...But as for my personal take on it, I've always thought you could and I'm confident that the intention when written and current intention of GW is that you can do so.

But good luck with any of us seeing GW saying or implying one way or the other.

Kerill
29-06-2010, 13:38
GW made it clear (I think it was Gav) that the reason they removed the dogs of war entry from 7th edition books was because it was unnecessary because the rules for DOW in the DOW pdfs already included how to include the units and was therefore extraneous.

Now the ogre army book does indeed contain the line "option for dogs of war" so by RAW they can't be taken by any newer book. Going by RAI they can since they are DOW like the rest and that line was probably meant to exclude Bretonnia (didn't use dogs of war) and in case other armies wouldn't be allowed either. In out group taking ogres is fine. By RAW you can't

However, there is no doubt that you CAN take the ogres (and halflings) from the DOW list and use them in your empire army.

So to sum up for the OP:
Can you use Bulls, ironguts etc. in your army? DEPENDS ON YOUR GROUP. RAW no, RAI yes.
Can you use "ogres" in your army? Absolutely. They might not have ogre clubs or bull charge but they can take GW and have a very cheap command group.
Can you use Rhinox Riders in your army? Absolutely, they don't have the silly line that is in the ogre book (potentially further support for RAI)

And for empire you can use halflings, which are very cool and characterful. You can also use dwarves, basically by using DOW (and especially with the new % rather than slot restrictions) you can once field an empire army containing the three minority races therein.

Arkfatalis
29-06-2010, 13:40
This is a bit awkward, as some will let you and some wont. If you watch the video with Jeremy Ventock, he specifically talks about mercenaries, so if they aren't in an errata or the rulebook, then GW are definately planning something with mercenaries so expect something in the future.