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timff8
01-07-2010, 03:40
With 8th edition right around the corner, I figured I'd get the ball rolling with tactics for our vavorite little green friends in the next incarnation of WHFB. Some things look promising to me for this new set of rules, so let's jump in and explore them.


#1: HORDES

At the time I heard about this, I had my Daemons list on my mind, and I was sure there was no way I was going to be able to afford running giant blocks of Plaguebearers, but for Goblins and NG's, this is not at all a problem. 40 models in a unit? That's smaller than some units I've seen run in 7th! 40 goblins(either kind) with spears will run you, what, 160 points? plus command? That's nothing for 40 attacks, and simply an inprovement on the same tactics we're already running.

On a side note, Volley Fire, which I think of as the ranged version of hordes, is great for Night Goblin Archers. The ability to rank-up for combat and maneuverability, while still firing 75% of your models(in 4 ranks I'm assuming) is fantastic.


#2: Speed Freaks

With 8th edition randomizing charges, anything and everything that gives you a definite number of something is great. The basic ability of O&G, that to call a WAAAGH!, is great. A definite movement that happens before you actually move makes sure that your charges connect, and although it's less effective on Gobbos, it's still awesome. In this as well is the Little WAAGH's spells, the Hand of Gork being especially useful. shooting a unit across the board can easily bring a combat into view that was otherwise unviable.

#3: Initiative: Night Goblins get a comeback?

In 7th, Night Gobbos had it tough, with their lighter armor and low Ld, but that could be turned around. With combats going in Initiative order, there might be somthing to taking them. the ability to sling those dozens of attacks faster might easily chew-up the enemy, making that lower LD value so much less important. Orcs, Gobbos, Undead, Dwarves, Ogres, Nurgle, and others all going after these cave-dwelling maniacs could make a sea of spears much more deadly, and should amuse their cackling generals as well.

#4: tank rank flank spank

In 8th, five-man units of cav. slammign into the flank of an enemy will no longer be viable. Now that two full ranks are needed to stop the enemies' rank bonuses and get yourself bonus combat res, 6-man units of heavy knights won't be breaking up the party come late July. Never fear! Gobbos have some of the cheapest cavalry out there, and fifteen spider riders or wolf riders are a fine investment. One can easily field a big flanking unit, boost in up 12" before the game starts, and be busting flanks by turn 1 even!


There's much more to be discussed, and I only touched on what I could think of at the moment, so let's hear what you've got to say.

Cheers,

Timff8

PurchasedPig
01-07-2010, 08:49
I wish I collected Goblins merely for my favourite unit in the new rules. 100 Night Goblin Archers, ranked 10x10. Thats 60 shots a turn with volley fire and 3 ranks fighting in combat for 300pts+command. It's hilarious. Especially when you take 3 units of them and focus fire. No number of 2+ saves will save you from THAT many shots.

I also agree entirely with Wolf Riders. Units of 15 for less thn 200pts is excellent for flanking and you can even take a unit of Horde cavalry if you were so inclined. 50 Wolf Riders led by 2/3 Goblin Warlords with Great Weapons? Relatively cheap for a horde cavalry unit I think.

I think Gobbos have got it very good in the new rules and the only reason they won't be tier2 or even 1 is the animosity rule which is funny enough to ignore. Remember tot ake as many Bolt Throwers/Rock Lobbers as you can! Artillery is awesome now.

-PurchasedPig-

uga bug
01-07-2010, 10:47
Another very good alteration for goblins of all kinds is the increased number of characters available.
With a 3000 point game you could easily get 10 characters in! This will be most useful for night goblins who will be able to have a higher LD character in every unit.

rtunian
01-07-2010, 12:45
what's wrong with the 200+ post, 11 page thread already going for o&g 8th ed?
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260653

timff8
02-07-2010, 04:24
I'm definitely looking forward to the ranged possibilities in the next edition. I may forego melee units altogether and just smother my enemies in arrows, rocks, bolts, and some miscellaneous debris.

Character swarms will be pretty fun, just one guy after another stepping up to the plate. The hard part will be finding new gear combinations for all of them!

@rtunian:
The reason I started this one seperately is because playing Goblins is different than playing O&G together, and I'd like to see more Goblins armies in the future, as they are more than capable of fighting without Orcs. I dislike most O&G lists beacuse it's not so much Orcs and Gobblins as it is ORRRCCS!............
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...and Goblins(?).
Generally an O&G army is 90% Orcs and 2 units of Goblins, and I just like Goblins more, so I made a thread for running them in a higher percentage. I don't dislike Orcs, or have anything against you or anyone else.


Sorry to any viewers that had to sit through my schpiel.

Cheers,

Timff8

ftayl5
02-07-2010, 04:43
Agreed, Timff88, I like your style ;)
I've been running a night goblin list for a few months (2) now coz they're awesome, and I love their big green noses sticking out of that hood like a big green nose sticking out of a black hood....

Anyway, as you said Gobbo's are being largely advantaged by the new rules.
On the characters side of things, if we wanted to, we could just about get a Goblin ___Boss into each unit!

On the little waaagh making it to tier 2 or even 1, I wouldn't go that far, gobbo's still have that LD of 5 and animosity and fear of elves, and all the new LD dependent rules won't benefit goblins much. Then again, as I said, with the ability to take so many characters, low LD might not be such a problem.

And with the new common magic items, finding new gear combo's shouldn't be too hard

The new flanking - needing ranks rule- benefits us too, where most armies will have to pay about 100pts for that extra rank, we can pay about 70
Oh and 40 night gobbos with command is 140pts. Run 10 x 4 thats 41 attacks!!!!!.....! (spears, horde and supporting attacks)

timff8
02-07-2010, 22:38
Great to hear from you, ftayl5.

I am a bit worried that we're all being a bit too optimistic for 8th edition, but I can't help it; it's so exciting!

Life's not so bad when you can run a minimum gear gobbo warboss in every brick of dudes, so Ld 8 all around isn't that hard to get.

I think you forget that a spear is +1 point, so 4 x 40 + command is more than 140. Regardless, it's still cheap.

ftayl5
02-07-2010, 23:19
ah yeah, I forgot about spears, 180pts with spears, that's still amazingly cheap for such a huge unit

On the downside, 1 fanatic really isn't going to be doing much now as most enemy units are going to be big enough not to be scared by 1 flailing ball of death. 3 maybe, but 1 won't do anything.
And squig hoppers are pretty much useless unless they get fixed by the big Errata's coming out *crosses fingers*

DillonSIX
03-07-2010, 03:20
I like the idea of horde goblins, but I've been wondering if spears are really even necessary on night goblins, for the one point you gain an extra rank of attacks, but lose the 6+ ward from hw/shield, or the shortbow shots. I think that 4*10 units of shortbow NGs might be better, putting out a high volume of shots and having a decent return punch, well decent by gobbo standards at least.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
03-07-2010, 04:10
Spears don't stop you from taking bows.

DillonSIX
03-07-2010, 10:45
Spears don't stop you from taking bows.

Really? I don't have my book on me, but I thought it was an either-or upgrade. At least on night goblins, not sure about regular goblins.

BattleofLund
03-07-2010, 12:44
Really? I don't have my book on me, but I thought it was an either-or upgrade. At least on night goblins, not sure about regular goblins.

Both Hoodies and Commons have either-or. O&G p52-53.


Better Horde equipment for Common Goblins?

a) Nothing, just 50+ gobs with loincloths and a sharp rock each.

b) Spears

c) Shields

d) Spears and Shields (like my sixty painted ones, d'oh!) - expensivest!

Ghazbad_Facestompa
03-07-2010, 17:43
On commons, spear, shield, and shortbow are each 1 point upgrades; nothing stops you from taking them all. On NG, shortbows replace shields for no cost and spears are a 1 point upgrade; again, nothing stops you from taking spear and bow.

BattleofLund
03-07-2010, 20:07
On commons, spear, shield, and shortbow are each 1 point upgrades; nothing stops you from taking them all. On NG, shortbows replace shields for no cost and spears are a 1 point upgrade; again, nothing stops you from taking spear and bow.

My armybook is from 2006; has there been another one since? :eyebrows:

Common Goblins may have 'either spear or short bows', and Night Goblins may have 'either spears, or exchange their shields for short bows'. O&G, pages 52 and 53.

rtunian
03-07-2010, 22:28
no, ng may not use both.



any unit may either be equipped with spears for +1 pt/model, or exchange their shields for short bows at no additional cost

so you may either pay extra for spears or swap your shield for bows. you may not do both.

ftayl5
04-07-2010, 05:51
Oh I didn't know 'o&g army book, night goblins, options, pg. 54' had a warseer account, Anyway, I think shortbows are one of the best options. Has the range always been 18" or is that new? Anyway a large unit can get out quite a lot of shots (30+). Even with low BS and S3, 30 shots is gonna do something

How does the doom diver sit now? Still slightly more accurate than the lobber and a high strength (except for the S9 hit) but it only has D6 hits. The lobber (for cheaper) gets a small template with no partials - which can equal up to 18 hits.

Discuss. As usual I have probably missed something.

Frankly
04-07-2010, 10:40
I'm running units a 40 NGs with S.bows and command. The couple of games under the news rules they have been awesome for their points cost. Atm I'm running 3 units of them, hopefully adding another one.

I might make them 50 strong, we'll wait and see.

rtunian
04-07-2010, 12:50
Oh I didn't know 'o&g army book, night goblins, options, pg. 54' had a warseer account, Anyway, I think shortbows are one of the best options. Has the range always been 18" or is that new? Anyway a large unit can get out quite a lot of shots (30+). Even with low BS and S3, 30 shots is gonna do something

oh i didn't know you couldn't tell the difference between a member quote and a citation. shortbows have 16" range in 7th ed. buffed by 2" in 8th ed.

Spiney Norman
04-07-2010, 14:58
Ok, I'm looking to move my Gobbos into 8th Edition. The thing I'm really not sure on is my general, what would be a good build as far as the general is concerned?

I'm thinking along the lines of Goblin Warboss, 2 NG shamen, and NG BSB. I've previously run Skarsnik for most of 7th, mainly because of the awesomeness of the gobbla model, will skarsnik still be viable in 8th given the crazy number of attacks some units could potentially allocate against him?

SevenSins
04-07-2010, 18:18
skarsnik is worth it both for Ld and tricksy traps?

and of course a very cool model

ftayl5
04-07-2010, 22:40
oh i didn't know you couldn't tell the difference between a member quote and a citation. shortbows have 16" range in 7th ed. buffed by 2" in 8th ed.

It was a joke....
OK, I though it used to be 16". I'd say Skarsnik is still worth it, though I've never used him myself :eek:

rtunian
05-07-2010, 12:19
It was a joke....

hmmm, guess i'd better take my snarkometer in for a tune up. thing's pretty sensitive these days

UberBeast
06-07-2010, 00:20
I still think the 50% point incease to the naked goblin that took place in the 7th edition book is preventing goblins from being as useful as say gnoblars, Orcs, Marauders, or DE warriors. Maybe if they threw the spears in for free?

timff8
06-07-2010, 02:29
Hey all, it's great to see many new commenters!

Goblins and Night Goblins are noth uselful to me. As far as mass hitting goes, I'd tatke NG's jsut beacuse of their higher initiative value; I3 allows them to actually hit simultaneously with some units!
As far as hard units go, Goblins with light, hand and shield are better, until you reach thirty or so NGs at which point netters become economical(netters on a roll of 2+ reduce enemies' strength by 1, but a roll of 1 reduces yours).

I've always had a soft spot for regular gobbos just because they are less common(due to the proliferation of the NG's from the fantasy starter kit) and the fact that they have actual leadership, making them useful ooutside of the general's Ld bubble. However, just like with NG's you shouldn't over-gear them; just take one upgrade, or they become more points than they can earn back.

I am entusiatically looking forward to volley firing with 40 NG's onto some unfortunate unit, looking up just in time to see the sky darken with arrow shafts. The efficiency of a short bow for 3 points can't be overlooked.

I'm on the fence currently between the Doom Diver and a rock lobba. The 'no partials' rule in the next ed. means that a small balst might be better than D6 wounds. I think though ultimately I'm gonna go with Doom Diver still, just because he can correct himself, which can save a miss, or, scatter him into a previously out-of-range unit!

Skarsnik is, to me, a double-edged sword. True, he has a HUGE base, 60mm wide is just ridiculous. This means that about 11 attack will be headed your way at minimum when you fight in melee. With his astounding 6+ save, he'll go down faster than a motion to bring Squats back. But, in character challenges, he is pretty nasty. Most enemy characters can't belt out enough to take kill him in one go. They usually go for high power, low number of attack, that can't take all of his SIX WOUNDS away, and then he's free to counter with Gobbla's killing blow hits. His lack of armor is of no consequence in the above situation, as most characters are kitted to ignore armor anyways.
That being said, his traps and schemes can alter the battle, and Ld 8 on a NG is pretty awesome. As far as leading a NG horde goes, he's head and shoulders above the competition. Try to get him into challenges, and he should be fine in melee. But DON'T expect him to be a deathstar leader; keep him well supported, and play smart. Then he will work his green, sneaky wonders.

As far as goblins being cheaper, that would put them at the same cost as slave rats, and clearly that's too cheap. I do think, however, that spears or some other piece of gear should be free.

Cheers,

Timff8

rtunian
06-07-2010, 13:30
Skarsnik is, to me, a double-edged sword. True, he has a HUGE base, 60mm wide is just ridiculous. This means that about 11 attack will be headed your way at minimum when you fight in melee. With his astounding 6+ save, he'll go down faster than a motion to bring Squats back. But, in character challenges, he is pretty nasty. Most enemy characters can't belt out enough to take kill him in one go. They usually go for high power, low number of attack, that can't take all of his SIX WOUNDS away, and then he's free to counter with Gobbla's killing blow hits. His lack of armor is of no consequence in the above situation, as most characters are kitted to ignore armor anyways.

skarsnik = cannon fodder w/o look out sir. so, unless you are facing an army w/o cannons or stone throwers, i wouldn't bring him.

cornonthecob
06-07-2010, 14:30
I've recently begun night gobbos. I'm using a 1000 point list with two warbosses, one bsb , one shaman , one 20 man gobbo hw and s unit , one 30 man gobbo spear unit , one 30 man gobbo shortbow unit , one 10 man orc arrer unit, a rock lobber and a spear chucka.

My general thought is to shoot from long range with orcs to whittle down units one model at atime , use the shortbows enmasse , keep the 20 man unit back for flanking and move the spear unit forward to attack units weakened by shooting.