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Dark Hippie
01-07-2010, 06:02
Hello There!

I am starting a new army called the Black Wolves, who are an entire company of the Space Wolves Blood Claws that turn to chaos (Khorne) after they encounter an army of Khorne Beserkers. I have two questions that I hope you guys can answer to help me create the fluff of my new army.

1) Do you think that it would be reasonable that all of the Blood Claws in the Company would turn to chaos if they were lured into the sweet grasp of Khorne?

2) Would the Veteran units of the chapter also turn, or would their be a civil war within the chapter?





Thanks to all those that help me!


Have a wonderful day!

Pacorko
01-07-2010, 06:42
First off and most important: it's your army, thus it's your call.

Going on canon-mode I have got to say that the Space Wolves would immediatelly destroy the traitor company if it was noticed. So, yes there would be a internecine war (not civil, as these are soldiers) amongst the loyal Space Wolves and the Khornate apostates, and I doubt the Veterans would follow the foolish and heretic young pups unless it's to hunt them down.

Finally, your army is just one of the GREAT COMPANIES, not the whole Space Wolves Chapter. So, it is possible that yours could be just one more among the 12 companies to have fallen by the wayside.

You can go and claim that the your Black Wolves are one of these various companies that have walked to the 13th stone, thus becoming yet another plausible part of the fabled 13th. Company.

Or something like that.

Just go read the Space Wolves' fluff, check the Codex Astartes and use them for ideas for your project.

Have fun and be well.

Scalebug
01-07-2010, 09:43
Seems like an OK theme hook to me... THe Space Wolves have their Great Companies, in whole or in warbands drawn from one, out on missions without contact with Fenris HQ for years at a time.

If such a force had recently had their ranks replenished before leaving Fenris, they would consist of a large portion of Blood Claws, and as they run into something big and bad, like a massive cult, daemon lord or khornate artifact, those guys would likely be the ones with least resistance to it.

Then the wild and youg guys overpower the relatively few Grey Hunters and Long Fangs, and proclaim their new aligeance with sacrifices of the old geezers..

Blood for the Blood God!

I would probably limit myself to a small warband rather than an entire Great Company, it wont really make a difference from the perspective of building an army, (think; the warband is about what you actually put on the table), and it goes more smoothly with the canon. They will be hated by the rest of the space wolves, but it wont really tear the chapter apart in a massive war.

Think a small force that was seconded to a Rouge Trader or Inquisitor, originally for a specific mission investigating an anomaly, but something went wrong.

gwarsh41
01-07-2010, 13:33
I would probably limit myself to a small warband rather than an entire Great Company, it wont really make a difference from the perspective of building an army, (think; the warband is about what you actually put on the table), and it goes more smoothly with the canon. They will be hated by the rest of the space wolves, but it wont really tear the chapter apart in a massive war.


I second this, for the reason stated, as well as that I cannot fathom an entire company of blood claws. Do they never get better in battle and become GH with the +1WS/BS? If they do, do they transfer out?

I really dislike the idea of wolves going to chaos, bloodclaws though, I could understand (plus i dont like them) I could agree with something like maybe a corrupt wolf priest takes a large warband of scouts on a training mission where they are corrupted. Lucas does his thing and the result is corruption in the recruits.

But yeah, a whole great company falling seems pretty far. It is your army though.

jlmb_123
01-07-2010, 13:37
I second this, for the reason stated, as well as that I cannot fathom an entire company of blood claws. Do they never get better in battle and become GH with the +1WS/BS? If they do, do they transfer out?


Isn't that what the 13th Company is, though, where there's no avenue for promotion due to no recruitment procedure?

I seriously think that I'd not worry about promotion within the warband - why would they car when they've severed their ties to the organisation which imposes this structure upon them?

Pacorko
01-07-2010, 17:45
WAAAAIT!

No Wolf priest would ever be corrupt! Never! Don't even try to imply that! Don't!

...

O.K., I'm all right now. :p

The thing is, a per the Codex, there have been lots of companies that have been either annahilated, destroyed, purged, fallen or lost, and they are collectively referred to as having "walked to the 13th. stone" in the background.

So, yes. There's the implication on an official document that complete companies may indeed fall and turn to Chaos worship.

The bit about a complete company of Blood Claws, is a bit dodgy a per canon, but as pointed out it's easily resolved with it being a replacement company for a recently lost one or a severely decimated one, thus having lost of rookies and a handful of veterans amongst them.

Maybe that's why the loyal vets were bested, so little capacity for strict supervision finally got to the point where the increasingly-savage blood claws were tainted and became apostates. Or worse and far more sinister, they harboured an affinity for Khorne that none of the tired vets could detect until it was too late.

Culven
01-07-2010, 18:06
I think that fluff-wise, it would be better to think of the Veteran units as having risen to their position after the Company/Warband turned renegade.

ODINM4
01-07-2010, 21:22
i was going to do black wolves aswel but was going to doit a different way .you idea is good i think it can work using the above ideas mentioned .

i was going to have a black wolves force,the reason they are called black wolves is the wolf lord is kia all his wolfguard are kia so they are all mourning such a great loss hence the black armour thay will crusade until anihaltion then they will have made the journey to the 13th stone

Hive Mind 33
01-07-2010, 21:50
I second this, for the reason stated, as well as that I cannot fathom an entire company of blood claws. Do they never get better in battle and become GH with the +1WS/BS? If they do, do they transfer out?

I really dislike the idea of wolves going to chaos, bloodclaws though, I could understand (plus i dont like them) I could agree with something like maybe a corrupt wolf priest takes a large warband of scouts on a training mission where they are corrupted. Lucas does his thing and the result is corruption in the recruits.


Scouts are veterans though, blood claws are more corruptible them them.

Dark Hippie
01-07-2010, 23:47
Thanks for all of the great insight guys! In response to ODINM4, is there already a Space Marine or chaos group already called The Black Wolves?

Culven
02-07-2010, 01:49
I don't recall hearing of a "Black Wolves" group. There is a chaos warband called Skyrar's Dark Wolves (for which I actually have a small warband).

ODINM4
02-07-2010, 02:00
as far as i know there isnt a chapter called black wolves mentioned in books ive read .go with your idea its a good theme for an army:evilgrin:

Michael M.
02-07-2010, 02:56
We had discussed this many times in the past. The point is, that SW are more resistable against the influence of chaos then most other SM. It has something to do with their Canis Helix and the Curse of the Wulfen. The ongoing strugle against their inner beast makes them mentally very strong and it seems that the Canis Helix does the same with their body. The best example is the 13th Great Company, the Wulfen Company. They fight the traitor scum deep in the Eye of Terror for 10000 years now and they´re still loyal. It´s very unlikely that a whole Great Company would turn traitor, not to mention that no GC completly consist only of BC.
For the Lost Companies i can say that it doesn´t mean that those companies had become traitors. They had simply refused to return to the Fang or to accept orders from the current Great Wolf. The Wolf Lords didn´t swear on the Great Wolf, but on Russ and the Emperor. That means that they´re still loyal for the rest of the Imperium. For the Great Wolf means it only that he´s no longer responsable for the deeds of a Lost Company.

gwarsh41
02-07-2010, 17:05
Scouts are veterans though, blood claws are more corruptible them them.

I totally spaced out on that one. I meant a large warband of bloodclaws on a scouting mission. Brain farted and forgot scouts were a unit type!

Corrupt priest takes the new guys out on a training mission and corrupts them. There, no brain farts.
Although the post above provides a great point. In SW lore, the taint of chaos will cause the canis helix to go crazy. SW will succumb to the curse of the wulfen when that happens. The 13th company are all in the warp, constant chaos has caused them all to go the way of the wulfen. However in one of the books you meet the 13th company. All of the hardened men were able to hold off on ite wulfen crazy. Their bodies have still transformed, but their minds are fine.

Blood claws, being the new guys, would probably go full on wulfen.

GW really did not want chaos wolves with the fluff they wrote.

Aedes
02-07-2010, 21:57
Have a look at the "Dornian Heresy" mentioned in this forum and on Bolter and Chainsword...Khorne Wolves, finally believeable after what they did on Prospero!
;)

spetswalshe
03-07-2010, 00:50
As a renowed Wolf-hater, I fully support any move that tarnishes their incorruptible Grey-Knight-a-like image.

While I can see the SW 'resistance to chaos' in a generalised sense - resistance to mutation, mind domination, hostile thought transference, that kind of thing - the Canis Helix doesn't define a Marine's personality, and hence shouldn't actually affect this kind of thing. Willpower - which is probably on-par with the Blood Angels, both of them having to fight a genetic predisposition to savagery - isn't necessarily going to come into play at this point; many Chaos renegades are extremely strong-willed, after all. Willpower would only come up if the potential-renegade was actively trying to reject turning traitor - and if you've got a Space Wolf strapped to a chair, he's probably not going to give in, regardless of what you might say or do.

I could see the Space Wolves - like the Blood Angels - actually being more likely to turn traitor because of their famous willpower. Pride is a huge, huge deal for the SWs; pride alone could turn them against the Imperium. Picture an arrogant Guard commander, who refers to the SWs in dispatches as savage sons of dogs - say the SWs intercept that message; they're not going to just ignore it.

Even the great Logan Grimnar came very, very close to fighting Imperial forces on Armageddon - not out of pride, but out of loyalty to his fellow man, which is just as dangerous. Imagine if Ulrik hadn't been there to stop him - civil war would have broken out planetside. Chances are the Imperium would have diplomatically taken the SWs side and had a few Administratum scapegoats executed, but if the High Lords were having a bad day, it could easily have seen Logan and his company declared traitors. Would his brethren have turned on him in blind loyalty to the Imperium, like they did on Prospero? Unlikely, since their chapter loyalty tends to come first. But if a company is declared traitor, their fellows certainly will be suspicious, and keep their distance.

Say it isn't Logan's company, but just a primarily Blood Claw warband. Turned on by their allies, abandoned by their comrades, and attacked at every turn - simply defending themselves is an act of rebellion. Why wouldn't they turn to Khorne? It doesn't take a lack of willpower to make the best of a bad situation - in fact, declaring yourself an enemy and taking the fight to the Imperium that has betrayed you is a very Space Wolf thing to do.

Hence, being immensely strong-willed has little to do with it - putting your head in the sand and trying to outrun your attackers while still doing their bidding goes counter to everything a Blood Claw's life has been about. Turning round, making a stand, saying that you're not going to put up with it anymore and if you have to die, you're damn well going to drown in blood? That's more their style. And if Khorne sends them a telegram along the lines of "I APPROVE ENORMOUSLY [STOP] IF YOU EVER NEED ANY AMMO OR CHAINSWORD FUEL YOU'VE ONLY GOT TO ASK [STOP] I COULD ALSO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THOSE FRUITY BEARDS YOU GUYS TEND TO GROW BUT I REALISE YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOURSELVES IN YOUR OWN WAY [STOP] IT'S JUST SOME OF THE GUYS ARE STARTING TO TALK AND THEY'RE SAYING YOU'RE OVERCOMPENSATING I'LL LEAVE IT AT THAT [STOP]"...

warpoet
03-07-2010, 03:37
Another "check out if it's cool that my marines are super shiny this way" topic.

I am going to sound like a pus-sack here, but why do people ask the internets for permission when they make an army?

The fluff is out there. Either you adhere to it, or you don't. You get to choose.

My marines all have third eyes in the small of their backs, but since their backpacks cover them up, they use special Martian fiber optics to wire their third eyes to the palms of their hands, which means they have super-buff other hands, which are so strong, they use chainswords with extra-angry teeth, and the Emperor was so afraid of them, he banished them to the Ghost Stars, but they fought their way through anyway to prove their loyalty, but accidentally turned to Chaos because I like the Daemon Prince model. And they're red.

JeffJedi
03-07-2010, 06:53
It would make more sense if a chapter called the Black Wolves were made from the Space Wolf geneseed and went to Chaos for some reason.

jlmb_123
03-07-2010, 08:25
My marines all have third eyes in the small of their backs, but since their backpacks cover them up, they use special Martian fiber optics to wire their third eyes to the palms of their hands, which means they have super-buff other hands, which are so strong, they use chainswords with extra-angry teeth, and the Emperor was so afraid of them, he banished them to the Ghost Stars, but they fought their way through anyway to prove their loyalty, but accidentally turned to Chaos because I like the Daemon Prince model. And they're red.

I think that that's a bit rude. Dark Hippie has only asked some questions about the structure of a warband if it turned to Chaos, not gone full-on special snowflake.

I'll second what spetswalshe on this (and something similar was agreed upon a couple of months ago regarding the Tau): corruption by Chaos and turning to Chaos are two separate things. One involves the Warp actively influencing the individual, the other is a definite (pragmatic?) choice on the part of the individual.

Stonerhino
03-07-2010, 10:57
Your idea is fine, but using Blood Claws as your main force is kind of off.

If you are planning on using the Space Wolf codex then just make them some company that left the main chapter for what ever reason you want.

If you are planning on using the Khorne Bezerkers (Chaos Codex) and say they are blood claws. Then I don't think it would work. 2nd edition Space Wolves maybe but the new Space Wolves are not better in melee then other Marines. And their Blood Claws are only crazy scouts in power armor. If you want to go this route. Then say a Wolf Lord broke off his company from the Chapter and IoM. Later his army became desperate for supplies. So they started raiding Imperial planets and eventualy other chapter's outpost. The responce from loyal forces forced them to turn to chaos forces for aid. Since the Space Wolves have their own special spot in the Traitor's hearts they had to keep fighting and fighting and fighting. This eventualy lead to the Warband's image of very elite melee specialist (Khorne Bezerkers have +1ws, +A and FC) and gifts from Khorne. For the skulls they have taken.

I would not use a deamon weapon as the corrupting force. It's been played out and the SW take weapons from fallen chaos champions and use them. This has not had that effect yet. Logan Grimnar's, axe is an example.

warpoet
03-07-2010, 17:58
I think that that's a bit rude. Dark Hippie has only asked some questions about the structure of a warband if it turned to Chaos, not gone full-on special snowflake.

Just a bit rude? I was worried it was full-on *******.

One of the things I like about WH40K is that there's enough room for everything under the sun.

I can have a third-eye marine force if I want.

I don't need permission.

A quick flip through the Chaos SM Codex, and the dear departed Lost and the Damned Codex, proves that whatever Dark Hippie wants to do is perfectly fine.

It's a good thing. Keeps him off the streets and not hacky-sacking.

So, to be more constructive and not just *******, I suggest Mr. Hippie peruse that Lost and the Damned Codex (the book was called "Eye of Terror"). It's no longer valid for army composition, but is an interesting read.