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EmperorEternalXIX
01-07-2010, 08:35
So...I was just discussing the pitiful state of the Chaos Marine in another thread, and it got me to thinking. With my design abilities I could easily BUILD a whole official-ish codex for Chaos to bring them in line with the fifth edition armies. Of course this wouldn't be official no matter what, but I will also point out to all of you that I love to do layout for books and such, and wouldn't mind even going to work for GW or going on myself as an amateur games designer. So bearing this in mind, I got a curious idea.

What if I were to produce a lofty, impressive codex for Chaos, and then send it directly to Games Workshop themselves? As sort of a...suggestion, I guess. I could include a simple letter saying that they could use everything in it if they so chose, and that I would not distribute it myself (not publicly, anyway...).

How do you all think this sort of thing would go down?

ForbidMetal
01-07-2010, 10:48
Now, I could be completely wrong, but if I remember correctly, it says somewhere on GWs legal section on the website, any materials you send to them will automatically belong to them and they may use it in whatever way they like without your permission and without crediting you.

I could be wrong and that may just be artwork but I'm not 100% sure.

It's a cool idea, but I think it'll get ignored by GW :/

Good luck anyway.

Thanatos_elNyx
01-07-2010, 11:01
Yeah I had planned on doing something similar but concentrating on a Thousand Sons codex.

In the past GW have said they prefer people to send them complete codexs rather that simple unit ideas etc, That includes fluff and art. :(

Isfimbur
01-07-2010, 11:52
Yeah I had planned on doing something similar but concentrating on a Thousand Sons codex.

In the past GW have said they prefer people to send them complete codexs rather that simple unit ideas etc, That includes fluff and art. :(

lol? Is this actually something that GW has asked for? "Send us a complete product so we can sell it and make a ******** of money without sharing profit or credit!" :wtf:

Tsavo
01-07-2010, 11:54
lol? Is this actually something that GW has asked for? "Send us a complete product so we can sell it and make a ******** of money without sharing profit or credit!" :wtf:

can you blame them?? hell i would if i ran something like that.

Noserenda
01-07-2010, 12:21
lol? Is this actually something that GW has asked for? "Send us a complete product so we can toss it in the bin and forget about it!" :wtf:

Fixed that for you ;)

Erwos
01-07-2010, 12:31
Now, I could be completely wrong, but if I remember correctly, it says somewhere on GWs legal section on the website, any materials you send to them will automatically belong to them and they may use it in whatever way they like without your permission and without crediting you.
They can write whatever they want, but disclaimers like that are unenforceable legally, since there was never any discrete act of agreement. Put a strong notice of copyright on it, and it'll be reasonably protected.

The truth is, there needs to be an entire "Internet Codex Project" (ICP) that does this for all armies. IMHO, it should be sublists (Exodites, Legions, Craftworlds, IG regiments, etc.) rather than whole lists to begin with, but it could move into full-blown new armies (Mechanicus, Squats) if it proves successful with the smaller stuff.

Let me suggest the following concepts:
1. New units should be supported from fluff, and the fluff needs proper references. (Think about how Lexicanum handles things.)
2. New lists generated by the ICP should not be more powerful than existing (updated) official lists. They don't need to be super weak, but they should not be overturning the current dominant codexes.
3. Similarly, new units should not be "top of their class". If we have a unit that can kill EVERYTHING in assault or shooting, it does not belong in an ICP list.
4. New units should either be simple conversions (thunder hammer on a CSM terminator) or use OOP Citadel miniatures (Squats, Exodites). Stuff that's completely new should be avoided, at least at first.
5. No allies. (Controversial, but this seems to be GW's new direction, and we should follow it.)
6. No new special characters, at least at first. Any new sublists should be usable without special characters.
7. Non-mature releases have expiration dates on them. Mature releases will have strong disclaimers that the newest version is on the ICP website.
8. Avoid rewriting existing lists, at least at first. DH might need a huge overhaul, but that's for GW to do, not us.

Thanatos_elNyx
01-07-2010, 12:37
lol? Is this actually something that GW has asked for? "Send us a complete product so we can sell it and make a ******** of money without sharing profit or credit!" :wtf:

Well I was paraphrasing; but they were saying that people were sending in lots of unit ideas with just a special rule or something.
And they complained that that was useless if you wanted to send them a new unit you would have to do a full fluff work up etc so that they wouldn't have to do all the work.

Hunger
01-07-2010, 13:06
I'm all for this. I already have a complete Codex: Lost And The Damned ready to go - was going to post it on the net sometime soon anyway.

Godzooky
01-07-2010, 13:19
So...I was just discussing the pitiful state of the Chaos Marine in another thread, and it got me to thinking. With my design abilities I could easily BUILD a whole official-ish codex for Chaos to bring them in line with the fifth edition armies. Of course this wouldn't be official no matter what, but I will also point out to all of you that I love to do layout for books and such, and wouldn't mind even going to work for GW or going on myself as an amateur games designer. So bearing this in mind, I got a curious idea.

What if I were to produce a lofty, impressive codex for Chaos, and then send it directly to Games Workshop themselves? As sort of a...suggestion, I guess. I could include a simple letter saying that they could use everything in it if they so chose, and that I would not distribute it myself (not publicly, anyway...).

How do you all think this sort of thing would go down?

Stick in a bit of fluff with a Chaos Lord wedgying The Nightbringer and they might even take you seriously and put you on the books.

Honestly, though, I'm pretty sure you won't have been the first person who believes you can do a better job than GW's designers can. I reckon anything you send them would hit the shredder rather than JJ's desk.

People don't like being told you think you can do something better than them, no matter how overtly philanthropic your intention appears to be.

Still, good luck. :)

ashc
01-07-2010, 13:22
As long as Abaddon curbstomps an Avatar I'm in, you know, have to keep your codex relevant ;)

Realistically? - A homebrew codex is a good idea, and people on the internet would no doubt appreciate it.

Games Workshop however won't give two shiny shades to you sending it to them...

DuskRaider
01-07-2010, 18:14
I made Death Guard and World Eaters codices, I can email them to you if you're interested.

x-esiv-4c
01-07-2010, 18:35
Unless you can make a codex that is designed to push new product better then they can you won't really care at all.

EmperorEternalXIX
01-07-2010, 19:13
Actually I can do all of these things.

For one, not to sound arrogant, but this would be similar to my campaign in that it would be a full-bore, ready-for-print codex. They would get a bound and completed BOOK, not just like, a printed word document with some basic stuff in it.


Honestly, though, I'm pretty sure you won't have been the first person who believes you can do a better job than GW's designers can. I reckon anything you send them would hit the shredder rather than JJ's desk.

People don't like being told you think you can do something better than them, no matter how overtly philanthropic your intention appears to be.

Still, good luck. I'm actually not looking to outperform or circumvent them. I would want to assist them and work with/for them. I don't want to do it because I feel like the Chaos Codex is bad, I just would like to do it in order to give them a properly scary 5th edition update. The idea of a Matt Ward Chaos Codex possibility haunts me at night...


Unless you can make a codex that is designed to push new product better then they can you won't really care at all.This wouldn't be hard with what I plan. My campaign, if you read it, actually does this indirectly. I love the game and would love to do anything that would help the company out.

If I produce the codex it will only be the later Units/rules sections, as I feel like the actual fluff part of the codex, I am not qualified to write or include.

It would be an interesting idea to try. I think I may go forward with this. If I do it would be a coupled LotD/Chaos army where the actual Chaos Marines and cult troops are powerful options that you can use in conjunction with some Guard-like cultists and mutants. Highly customizable Aspiring Champion kits could be released to accommodate the idea of me making Aspiring Champions an actual purchased unit with no force org slot (i.e. you can take one for every squad). This along with cultist and traitor box sets could make a good chunk of money for GW.

I think I might go forward with this, hopeless though it may be. I have no problem with GW claiming ownership of the item; I will simply poor-man's-copyright it to myself before sending it to them. All I would want is some credit, and maybe a job (though I would probably get fired quickly for yelling at Matt Ward all the time).

gwarsh41
01-07-2010, 19:19
I acknowledge that chaos marines are missing a few things (drop pods) but I dont feel that they are a bad army. One of the best players in the area over here runs chaos marines and does fine.

Mannimarco
01-07-2010, 20:52
I think MVS made a pretty comprehensive chaos dex over in rules developments.

There was all kinds of weird and wonderful stuff in it.

EmperorEternalXIX
01-07-2010, 21:01
Maybe if it is on the money I could just "bookify" such things for them?

TheOmiTsuki
01-07-2010, 21:13
I have had the same idea and I actually sat down and made it.

Funny part is it took all of 20 mins to get everything inline with 5thed as well as put the option to be able to allign your armyr with what ever god you liked. By that I mean more then just lol this guy has an icon....

It makes me sad that GW has let this pos of a codex live for this long its just sad.


I would put in fluff and art and send it in but why bother? GW has taken alot of stuff from the fans and never really given them the credit.

Look at all there FAQs for instance.

If I could get at least my name on the last page of the dex I would be more then happy to but even that is asking alot from them.

Tyron
01-07-2010, 21:31
As people have said be prepaired for GW to not listen, though it is a good idea to start one.

I made a website and 5 legion codicies and haven't done the other 3 with full printable pdf's support forum for play testers ect basically a community site to develope it.

However things get in the way and so I stopped the site for a while, though it will come back up at some point.

Should be interesting to watch your progress ;)

EmperorEternalXIX
01-07-2010, 21:52
I have to say, it is sad how easy this is to do. I have already reworked all the cult troops and come up with a mechanic for Aspiring Champions that will sell kits like hotcakes, and I'm not even 5 pages in yet.

Saunders
01-07-2010, 22:17
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but submitting unrequested materials to GW is more likely to result in your ideas not being reflected in new releases. Even if you give permission for its use, such things present legal vulnerabilities challenges that no prominent company would want to entangle themselves in.

Wishing
01-07-2010, 23:32
When it comes to this kind of question, I always think of what Privateer Press states on their website somewhere, which paraphrased is something like: "We do all our own rules development and don't use unsolicited submissions. We specifically make sure that all unsolicited submissions are disposed of without being read, to reduce the risk of players thinking that we used their ideas without giving them credit".

While GW have a history of using fan-submitted material in publications like Citadel Journal, and so might have a different approach, I imagine that a lot of the above would still apply for legal reasons.

Still, no harm in sending it to them, you might get a reply back saying that they think you did a good job or something.

EmperorEternalXIX
02-07-2010, 03:18
I guess since my primary motivation might be to get noticed and maybe get a job offer of some kind, it couldn't hurt either way.

ashc
02-07-2010, 07:29
Why not... apply for a job? and move to Nottingham Uk :angel:

Godzooky
02-07-2010, 08:00
I guess since my primary motivation might be to get noticed and maybe get a job offer of some kind, it couldn't hurt either way.

Just another thought, mate.

It sounds like you really have some good ideas that have got your imagination firing. Why give them away to someone? Use them. Have you thought about putting that creativity into developing your own games system?

In 5 years you could be the head of a successful games company avoiding all the pitfalls you see other companies falling into.

Bring out some good minis and bingo. :)

EmperorEternalXIX
02-07-2010, 09:11
I actually already have a very solid idea and backstory for what I would call a "dark fantasy" setting for a wargame. Though the setting is fantasy I have developed a rich original background that has no inspiration from Tolkien-style Fantasy (so no dwarves, no elves, etc).

The idea of creating a whole subgenre of fantasy appeals to me. "Dark fantasy" would be characterized by the setting, namely, it is "post-apocalyptic." Much like the 40k universe, the situation in a dark fantasy setting is very grim and has deteriorated to a point where it is uncertain the world will ever recover.

Mechanically, the game is meant to be a more realistic and less technical fantasy game. It had more depth than 40k, but operated under the same idea of being very cinematic, cool and visual, while also being lean and quick and easy.

I suppose you may have a good point. I created the game because I feel the fantasy wargame genre is in dire need of something to oppose the current, very limited genre of fantasy wargaming, something that has a bit more "rule of cool" to it then "Chess Strategy," if that makes sense. Maybe the community might receive such a thing well.

Godzooky
02-07-2010, 09:36
I actually already have a very solid idea and backstory for what I would call a "dark fantasy" setting for a wargame. Though the setting is fantasy I have developed a rich original background that has no inspiration from Tolkien-style Fantasy (so no dwarves, no elves, etc).

The idea of creating a whole subgenre of fantasy appeals to me. "Dark fantasy" would be characterized by the setting, namely, it is "post-apocalyptic." Much like the 40k universe, the situation in a dark fantasy setting is very grim and has deteriorated to a point where it is uncertain the world will ever recover.

Mechanically, the game is meant to be a more realistic and less technical fantasy game. It had more depth than 40k, but operated under the same idea of being very cinematic, cool and visual, while also being lean and quick and easy.

I suppose you may have a good point. I created the game because I feel the fantasy wargame genre is in dire need of something to oppose the current, very limited genre of fantasy wargaming, something that has a bit more "rule of cool" to it then "Chess Strategy," if that makes sense. Maybe the community might receive such a thing well.

If you build it, they will come.

Follow your bliss, brother. :)

Thanatos_elNyx
02-07-2010, 09:45
Sounds like a slightly darker A Song of Ice and Fire.

(which is a good thing)

big squig
02-07-2010, 09:49
A 5th ed chaos codex? That's easy. Just do it the robin cruddance way!

Khorne Berzerkers with triple run, rending that works on a 5+, rage with different rules, wrist mounted poison grenade launchers, and aspiring champion powers that for some reason require a psychic test.

Plague Marines with T7, FNP on 3+, vomit attacks, and an alternate fire mode that lets them use their bolters as flamers. Plague bolts!

Thousand Sons who can re-deep strike every turn, all have their own psychic powers, have new slow and purposeful rules called "slow and ponderous", and all have psychic hoods.

Noise Marines with all new sonic weapons that are simply better than the old sonic weapons, I10 even with powerfists, fleet, and can only be attacked if the enemy passes a LD test on 3D6.

Done!

pringles978
02-07-2010, 09:58
i think the majoity of stuff sent to gw will indeed end up being discarded, but if what you send in is of sufficient quality it may see some circulation round the staff and get some attention.

i know if i worked there, id ditch all the obvious chaff and show my mates all the good stuff.

gw has to be aware of the current... displeasure... around the chaos dex, and understands the need to keep its customers happy (ish). if we keep sending them good quality stuff, who knows... just dont send it to gav thorpe.

Gutted
02-07-2010, 10:18
If you want to make a community codex, I'd just host it on a website/blog. If it is good enough the community will notice, if it gets enough attention than GW will notice. Alternatively put togeather a port folio and show it to a GW game designer in person, sending it straight to GW I suspect is not the way to go.

Erwos
02-07-2010, 11:47
A 5th ed chaos codex? That's easy. Just do it the robin cruddance way!

Khorne Berzerkers with triple run, rending that works on a 5+, rage with different rules, wrist mounted poison grenade launchers, and aspiring champion powers that for some reason require a psychic test.

Plague Marines with T7, FNP on 3+, vomit attacks, and an alternate fire mode that lets them use their bolters as flamers. Plague bolts!

Thousand Sons who can re-deep strike every turn, all have their own psychic powers, have new slow and purposeful rules called "slow and ponderous", and all have psychic hoods.

Noise Marines with all new sonic weapons that are simply better than the old sonic weapons, I10 even with powerfists, fleet, and can only be attacked if the enemy passes a LD test on 3D6.

Done!
I have to admit, this was funny... and true.

I don't want Chaos to be super-powerful. I just want Chaos to be competitive. I don't need to deep-strike on a dime, lay down fifty pie plates a turn, and/or have special characters that buff everyone on the board into insane killing machines (besides being such a device themselves).

I just want points costs adjusted, dreads that reliably work, and some fast attack worth taking. It's not so much to ask, really. If we get daemons back, that would just be icing on the cake.

Garven Dreis
02-07-2010, 12:28
I hope this idea comes to fruition.

barrangas
02-07-2010, 13:54
I guess since my primary motivation might be to get noticed and maybe get a job offer of some kind, it couldn't hurt either way.

If GW is like any other publishing company then I wouldn't get my hopes up to high. I know a number of authors and they get a heck of a lot more rejections then they ever get published.


I don't want Chaos to be super-powerful. I just want Chaos to be competitive. I don't need to deep-strike on a dime, lay down fifty pie plates a turn, and/or have special characters that buff everyone on the board into insane killing machines (besides being such a device themselves).

Yeah, the last thing we need is another Chaos 3.5. I got sick of "Yes the Chaos Dex is cheesy. If you look at my list you'll see that there are no Daemonic Stature Princes of Khorne and I'm not playing Iron Warriors".

Askari
02-07-2010, 15:03
I'd be all for anyone else who wants to make an improved Chaos Codex to send to GW, with a little note saying "This is what it could have been!"

And if you need any ideas, either ask or just look at my own homebrew codex (in my sig).

Mannimarco
02-07-2010, 15:15
Any new Chaos dex (going by current trends) will be just like the previous codex only better and cheaper.

Khorne berserkers will get rending on a 4, fleet, furious charge that works with counter attack and be cheaper than a tactical marine

there will be a new unit which allows FNP on everybody within.....whats the blood angel version 6? so this guy will have a 12' bubble

there will be a night lords character who gives his unit fleet scout infiltrate and move through cover, kinnda like shrike only better (and probably cheaper)

there will be an piece of equipment that halves the weapon skill and attacks of a whole unit (not just a character)

there will be some kind of cultist coven who can generate lesser daemons (kinnda like that tyranid only better)

all raptors will get hit and run and be able to deepstrike without scattering at all (kinnda like descent of angels only better) and will be cheaper than an assault marine

and the whole world over everybody from space wolves to necrons to tau will be using the chaos dex to represent their army "cuz it fits my theme innit"

EDIT: and fabulous bill can upgrade any and every chaos space marine in the army for free, this will not only ensure that model actually sells but will release a brand new plastic kit (probably 25 for 10) of all his upgraded marines which all we will all rush out and buy

sabreu
02-07-2010, 16:26
I would not make a new codex. GW will not -ever- use it. Don't kid yourself on that one. Instead, I would suggest making a campaign book with a definite focus and host it on a blog. More people are willing to try out a cool looking campaign book than a fully homebrewed fandex and you'll get more out of it too. If you guys decide to do something like, I'll definitely follow along to see what you come up with.

I'm currently working on something similar for Orks and Guard and I am 100 pages in at the moment.

big squig
02-07-2010, 19:33
Any new Chaos dex (going by current trends) will be just like the previous codex only better and cheaper.

Khorne berserkers will get rending on a 4, fleet, furious charge that works with counter attack and be cheaper than a tactical marine

there will be a new unit which allows FNP on everybody within.....whats the blood angel version 6? so this guy will have a 12' bubble

there will be a night lords character who gives his unit fleet scout infiltrate and move through cover, kinnda like shrike only better (and probably cheaper)

there will be an piece of equipment that halves the weapon skill and attacks of a whole unit (not just a character)

there will be some kind of cultist coven who can generate lesser daemons (kinnda like that tyranid only better)

all raptors will get hit and run and be able to deepstrike without scattering at all (kinnda like descent of angels only better) and will be cheaper than an assault marine

and the whole world over everybody from space wolves to necrons to tau will be using the chaos dex to represent their army "cuz it fits my theme innit"

EDIT: and fabulous bill can upgrade any and every chaos space marine in the army for free, this will not only ensure that model actually sells but will release a brand new plastic kit (probably 25 for 10) of all his upgraded marines which all we will all rush out and buy

Give this man a prize. GW's codex writing has gotten just awful since 5th edition.

TheOmiTsuki
02-07-2010, 22:51
As much as it saddens me this is prolly what will happen. Then myself and I am sure others will go from being the only chaos player at the store to being just one of the herd. Then you get to hear about how your a power gamer even if you have been playing them since they were an option to even play.


Really I just dont get why they dont put out a new CSM alonf with all the other dexs that so badly needed it. Updating the rules would be **** easy. Then put out a new dread and make the rules not suck. Plastic raptors with kewl rules and some plastic cult marines as well as allow cultis to up IG salse and hey look lots of money!


But really the same can be said for the few other crappy dexs that are out there.

AngelofSorrow
03-07-2010, 00:42
Or maybe if we raise enough hell like the guys @ drucchi.net did a few years back we may just get some recognition or even allow our input into the making of a new dex.

Remember there have been some staff changes with Gav and allesio gone maybe things like these will be received better. I'm in if you want to go for it.

SockMonkey
03-07-2010, 06:39
Other than a couple units the current chaos codex is anything but suck. Sure some units are no brainers ie daemon prince, but I was undefeated with my chaos when I cared enough to keep track. I think a few unit tweeks would do it.