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View Full Version : Vampire who loses a combat = a dead Vampire... or is he?



Balerion
02-07-2010, 09:03
Even deader than usual, that is.

I just posted about this in the VC tactica, but I thought it might be worth mentioning elsewhere since I hadn't seen any discussion about it.

The new special rule known as Unstable covers the crumbling mechanic we are all familiar with. However, this version of the rule explicitly prohibits the use of saves of any kind against the crumbling wounds. No ward, no regen, no nothing.

As a consequence, a Vampire who is part of a losing combat will take autowounds with absolutely no recourse. Doesn't matter if he's wearing Walach's Bloody Hauberk or toting the Drakenhof Banner. He's still toast.

There is one potential loophole, though. The new version of the Ethereal rule is not worded the same way as the original. It nows says that Ethereal units can lose combats, but nothing about them taking additional wounds because of it. Since an Ethereal vampire can only take wounds from magical effects, and crumbing is not explicitly defined as such, an Ethereal vampire could make a case for avoiding these wounds. Of course that opens up a huge can of worms with Wraiths who can wade into combat against mundane weapons and literally be invincible. Obviously not RaI, but I think the loophole might still be there.

Had troubling deciding whether to post this in general or in here, but I sense a potentially contentious issue and thought it would be a good time to kick off the debate. Am I on to something here, or is my interpretation faulty?


edit: And it should go without saying that no Undead unit actually uses the Unstable rule at this point. But considering that they deemed it worth including as a general special rule I think it's reasonably safe to assume that the errata will grant it across the board to all Undead units.

SkawtheFalconer
02-07-2010, 09:24
Im not blaming you for this, but it's nit picking of the BRB like this that nearly made me give up WHFB in 7th ed.

If this isn't errata'd, I'll be very disappointed.

Blekinge
02-07-2010, 10:16
You are correct in your reading of BRB rules. However, wraiths are neither BRB unstable or BRB ethereal for now. They are VC ethereal and VC undead. So, until the FAQ, wraiths perform as normal

Lord Zarkov
02-07-2010, 10:54
The unstable rule is there for the purposes of swarms, and I imagine future undead Army Books (like the rumoured upcoming TK)
Whether or not they errata current army books crumble to Unstable remains to be seen, but currently it is not the case.

The interesting case is Spirit Hosts who are swarms (so by definition unstable, unlike in 7th when this was only unbreakable swarms), but also Undead and so crumble. So should they take wounds from only one/both/the highest ?

gdsora
02-07-2010, 13:41
The unstable rule is there for the purposes of swarms, and I imagine future undead Army Books (like the rumoured upcoming TK)
Whether or not they errata current army books crumble to Unstable remains to be seen, but currently it is not the case.

The interesting case is Spirit Hosts who are swarms (so by definition unstable, unlike in 7th when this was only unbreakable swarms), but also Undead and so crumble. So should they take wounds from only one/both/the highest ?

Pretty sure the BRB stated
if they had their own specific combat rules (ie, being undead)

They do not have squish/unbreakable. they follow their own rules

theunwantedbeing
02-07-2010, 13:53
I doubt ethereal troops will be ethereal without also being unstable.(or being undead or similar)
Note that spirit host are swarms, which are unstable.
Although quite how you stamp on a ghost I dont know....presuambly spirit host are infact very small :)

But in the event they are, no crumble! :D
Although you can still break and run off (and be run down)

riotknight
02-07-2010, 17:23
Adding my agreement to everyone else; Unless specifically stated ( Like the new magic system), all rules from the Army Book still override the rule book, things that don't make sense will be Errata'd and FAQ'd. VC Undead/Ethereal remains unaffected.

Balerion
02-07-2010, 17:41
I would agree that the ruling on Break Tests in the VC special rules supercedes Unstable until an errata explicitly changes it, but wouldn't the new version of Ethereal automatically supercede the armybook version? It has the exact same name.

I'm aware of the the old Armybook > BSB equation, but I would imagine that if you're told to use a rule and there are two equally-applicable versions of that rule you would defer to the most recent one.


I'd be thrilled if the errata just left things alone, or even better, expressly told us to keep using the rules in the armybook. Invincible Wraiths would be cool and all, but totally gimmicky. Meanwhile my Vampires/Wight Kings would be dying every time they team up with a unit other than GG/Blood Knights.

Blekinge
03-07-2010, 09:07
Armybooks trump BRB. Them BRB says so

nonrelatedarticle
03-07-2010, 10:30
What is the new ethereal rule , how is it different from VC ethereal ?

Nocculum
03-07-2010, 13:01
I think that Ethereal losing crumbling or any combination of rules observations or changes discussed above would do very little to increase the effectiveness of the tiny amount of Ethereal units and options in the game at present.

With magic so much more present and powerful now, and with large infantry units being very hard to break and the extra attacks and sources of making them magical also increasing, I'd go as far as saying Spirit Hosts need to not crumble!

Sifal
04-07-2010, 20:24
Spirit Hosts are not swarms, is everyone going mental..... or am I? For that matter, Bat Swarms aren't 'Swarms' either.......

Balerion
04-07-2010, 21:20
Spirit Hosts are not swarms, is everyone going mental..... or am I? For that matter, Bat Swarms aren't 'Swarms' either.......
The new rulebook has an updated bestiary section that lists every unit in every army, and it classifies both of those units as Swarms.

Sifal
04-07-2010, 21:55
sweet, thanks for filling me in

HellRaid
05-07-2010, 17:45
Pretty sure the BRB stated
if they had their own specific combat rules (ie, being undead)

They do not have squish/unbreakable. they follow their own rules

Yup, I'm 99% certain I read that too (after a tiny "Oh sh-" moment when I read the Unstable rules).

So Undead keep their own version of crumbling.

Loq-Gor
05-07-2010, 23:29
This all assumes that Ethereal would in some way overrule Unstable, I don't see why that would be the case.

lord opium
06-07-2010, 00:32
Army book rules > rule book rules end of discusion

skario
06-07-2010, 05:39
Do you have the Faq that states, that the Vampires are Unstable? If not, then the rulebook of the army book persists, so the army books special rule for the Vampires remains. There is no problem in that.