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Asher
02-07-2010, 11:12
Lumping dozends of models into one unit is quite a paradigm change for WHFB.

It's proably something most people aren't used to, given the rules of the previous editions and I'm still tinkering what units have potential as a horde and which look impressive but don't deliver.

There are quite a few open questions on horde units (at least for me), like what's the ideal formation? Ten wide to get an other rank fighting or just 5 wide to make it manuveralbe? Or how to equip them? Charging or taking the charge? Etc.

Discuss!

Tokamak
02-07-2010, 11:33
A horde unit without 10 wide isn't a horde unit.

I'm going for two orc units of 60 in my army.

Eternus
02-07-2010, 11:45
With my Vamps it won't matter if I charge or get charged - Zombies and Skeletons have such low Ld they will almost always strike last, unless they are affected by Miasma of Deathly Vigour or Vanhals - in which case they ASF - all or nothing really, keeps it simple I suppose. One thing that did occur to me is that with such big units and so many casualties being suffered, I'm gonna have to invest some serious power dice to keep a Horde going - adding 6-7 Zombies to a unit of 25-30 is fine, but when a Horde cutting down 15-20 per combat phase it's a drop in the ocean.

Odin
02-07-2010, 11:46
A horde unit without 10 wide isn't a horde unit.

I'm going for two orc units of 60 in my army.

^ what he said ^

However, there is definitely a place for units which are 5-wide and many ranks deep, as effective anvils (keeping BSB close of course).

Generally you'll want units with a bit of punch 10-wide (marauders with GWs or flails, halberdiers). Units which can't dish out much damage (any average troops with HW & shield, zombies) will be far better off in deep, narrow units. Spearmen are a bit different, as being a horde means they benefit from a massive amount of attacks - 5 ranks of 10 HE spearmen can potentially all attack! - so it may depend upon their enemy (don't forget you don't have to set up 10-wide in every game, or even stay in the same formation during the game). Units which are stubborn or unbreakable anyway can afford to go wide even though they haven't got much hitting power (skaven with screaming bell or plague furnace for example).

Nocculum
02-07-2010, 11:47
A horde gets nothing more than an additional row of supporting attacks when charged in the front.

They get no additional CR, and whilst they're threatening to the front, if you can get around these large, unwieldy units, they break just like any other unit (gross simplification for illustration purposes).

25-30, 30-35 at most seems in my eyes to be the optimal unit sizes for most armies - Empire, Skaven and Dark Elf warriors included.

The next time I see someone suggest 50 Stormvermin or 50 Eternal Guard, I'm going to poke them.

Eternus
02-07-2010, 11:54
Units which are stubborn or unbreakable anyway can afford to go wide even though they haven't got much hitting power (skaven with screaming bell or plague furnace for example).

Except units that suffer from crumbling because going wide instead of deep will give away combat res to the enemy and make them drop faster. Though going wide may be good for blocking multiple enemy units.

Sharkboy
02-07-2010, 12:01
With my Empire force I'm going with 2 x 40 halberdiers in horde, they'll die in droves but go down swinging. Swordsmen I think will be 30 in 6x5 formation to survive combat longer and for ranks.

MY WoC it's only really marauders who seem ideal to go horde, (all the talk of MoK plus GW), I'm a mono Nurgle army so that's not an option but 1 unit of 40 might attract a lot of firepower from other units who would rather not take a cannonball to the face.

But with 8th edition magic and template weapons horde units can be whittled down in a instant, those movement trays could be looking pretty sparce by the time they got into combat.

Oberon
02-07-2010, 12:06
Take multiple movement trays so you can remove a whole tray each time the enemy shoots them. That way the tray will never look empty! :D

For me, a horde=unit that could benefit from going 10 wide but might not choose to. For example, I field 35-40 marauders of khorne, they could go 10 wide but as the only unit with more than 1 rank they often serve the army better by forming ranks and negating steadfast so my warriors can break the enemy. Of course they can kill quite a few enemies while doing so.

GenerationTerrorist
02-07-2010, 12:15
Neither of my armies can really afford to splash out ridiculous amounts of points on Horde formation infantry :-(

40 Chaos Warriors with HW and Shield in a 10*4 formation, and full command, comes in at just under 700pts! No thanks. Marauders, maybe, but I don't have any in my list except for the mounted version.

Eternus
02-07-2010, 12:25
Neither of my armies can really afford to splash out ridiculous amounts of points on Horde formation infantry :-(

40 Chaos Warriors with HW and Shield in a 10*4 formation, and full command, comes in at just under 700pts! No thanks. Marauders, maybe, but I don't have any in my list except for the mounted version.

Now you see this is where a list that perfers to leave out Marauders in favour of Horsemen, Warriors and Knights may fall down, because as you say, they are the only option for a Horde unless you want to spend an Elven Princes ransom in points. It's another subtle example of how 8th 'encourages' more balanced/varied lists. I'm sure that gamers will work out how to get the most out of the infantry light forces soon enough though, and it will probably come down to maneuverbility.

Rogzor87
02-07-2010, 12:30
It really depends on the unit honestly some will work out well... some won't... some will be really expensive... others will be rediculously cheap.

I myself am planning on doing a Horde of Skaven Slaves... or just maybe a massive block to tarpit forever and come out with Templates to kill whatever is stuck fighting them.

Ultimate Life Form
02-07-2010, 13:01
I will at least once take the chance and unite my 4 separate units of Clanrats into a single horde of 100, just for the pure awesome... :D

Nocculum
02-07-2010, 13:02
It is fairly amusing that you can now have a 3 unit army now, at any points level :D

VonUber
02-07-2010, 13:04
It doesnt really work at the moment, I'm waiting to see the first 8th ed army book, not just done with 8th in mind before I say its crap.

How ever, the horde unit is funny when you go up to it and breath on it, no partials? well thats 30 hits at S5 :D

Eternus
02-07-2010, 13:38
It doesnt really work at the moment, I'm waiting to see the first 8th ed army book, not just done with 8th in mind before I say its crap.

How ever, the horde unit is funny when you go up to it and breath on it, no partials? well thats 30 hits at S5 :D

This will be the big counter to the Horde - especially stuff that ignores armour saves. Some units will almost be too big to miss!

Razhem
02-07-2010, 15:02
the problem with the horde formation is that you have more models per rank, and as such, less ranks being stubborn. This of course can be compensated for when you see you might get heavy losses and reforming trough a leadership test (I'm with the supposition that you can reform in combat), but can still bite you in the ass. Second, it requires a huge unit to get any real benefit and finally, on strenth 3 units, your damage output barely even goes up, you go from killing 2 empire swordsmen with a unit of clanrats with spears 5 wide to killing 4 with one in horde formation, just not worth the cost for the marginal benefit. Swordmasters go from 11 kills to 22 in horde or something equaly scary, but they cost a ******** of points.

I'm only seeing horde work with the current books on marauders and other semi cheap hiperkilly units.

Odin
02-07-2010, 15:28
the problem with the horde formation is that you have more models per rank, and as such, less ranks being stubborn. This of course can be compensated for when you see you might get heavy losses and reforming trough a leadership test (I'm with the supposition that you can reform in combat), but can still bite you in the ass. Second, it requires a huge unit to get any real benefit and finally, on strenth 3 units, your damage output barely even goes up, you go from killing 2 empire swordsmen with a unit of clanrats with spears 5 wide to killing 4 with one in horde formation, just not worth the cost for the marginal benefit. Swordmasters go from 11 kills to 22 in horde or something equaly scary, but they cost a ******** of points.

I'm only seeing horde work with the current books on marauders and other semi cheap hiperkilly units.

Generally I agee, but two things may mean it's not that simple:

1) A lot of spells now give a unit a big boost in close combat. The Mind Razor spell turns a horde unit of spearmen into the most destructive force on the battlefield. Even the Flaming Sword (+1 to wound and flaming attacks) is a significant boost.

2) The horde units you mention are particularly vulnerable to other horde units, because of their lack of armour. 60 Goblin Spearmen against 40 Marauders of Khorne with great weapons (approx equal points) is a combat which the Marauders will almost certainly win in the second round, but only after the goblins have killed around half the Marauders, making them a far less effective unit, and one which can be taken out with a flank attack.

GodlessM
02-07-2010, 15:31
The Horde rule really isn't all that effective. When you think about it, going wide is best for units that hit hard and rely on kills, whereas at the same time it is also only worth it in cost with units that are bit cheap. So when you put those together you get Orcs and only Orcs. In other cases either you are spending too much or else you are hindering yourself by depleting your rank bonus faster.

Odin
02-07-2010, 15:35
The Horde rule really isn't all that effective. When you think about it, going wide is best for units that hit hard and rely on kills, whereas at the same time it is also only worth it in cost with units that are bit cheap. So when you put those together you get Orcs and only Orcs. In other cases either you are spending too much or else you are hindering yourself by depleting your rank bonus faster.

And Marauders, and to a certain extent Empire Halberdiers. And as I mentioned above also units in armies which have good magic support to buff them.

inq.serge
02-07-2010, 15:36
I'm gonna try 17 trolls + throgg (18, 6x3 formation.)

Monster infantry FTW!

However, 60 pikemen (fight in 6 ranks!) + mindrazor + basic beast buff = 60 st 8-9 ASF attacks when being charged.

Odin
02-07-2010, 15:37
I'm gonna try 17 trolls + throgg (18, 6x3 formation.)

Monster infantry FTW!

Well, that's a pretty scary unit. You won't be very happy when you fail a stupidity test though!

inq.serge
02-07-2010, 15:41
Well, that's a pretty scary unit. You won't be very happy when you fail a stupidity test though!

My general has a good LD (9, can get 10 if killing enough stuff) and Throgg has the same effect as a BSB for all Monsters and monstrous infantry and other beasty critters. And I'll have a real BSB too.

the problem is that I have to face a unit of at least 8/7 wide to be able to attack with all of them.

plantagenet
02-07-2010, 15:42
I agree ranks are important risk mitigator if you loose combat and have more of them than your opponent you get the new stubborn ability. however the aDvantage of the horde rule is it gives you a tool that makes it easier to win the combat in the first place. So if we take the example given before where the horde formation only gave two more kills opposed to being in a deeper formation. That deeper formation would have stubborn but that is still something that can be failed the unit in horde formation won the combat and therefore has 0 chance of running.

I realize this very simplistic and certain match ups extra attacks will not help and you will loose either way so better to be stubborn although i would suspect the horde formation would often be stubborn against these type of troops.. This is the balance you must find in your army though I will be taking at least one horde formation in my army.

Eternus
02-07-2010, 15:52
If being a Horde 'merely' allows an additional rank to provide supporting attacks and a model can only support a model in the front rank that is itself in a position to attack, then you are only going to get the most out of a Horde if it attacks the widest enemy unit possible to maximise those supporting attacks, right? Then again, I suppose getting the most out of a unit simply requires the unit to win combats.

theorox
02-07-2010, 16:11
O&G:

40 arrerboyz, FC. 270p. 20 shots per turn, 30 with salvo fire. That's some kills.

Then 31 attacks that are str4 in the first round of combat. (Does the boss have str4?)

Ouch.

Dwarfs:

30 Dwarf warriors, GW's, FC. 325p. Could go with 35, wich is 375p.

30 str 5 attacks.

Win! :D

Theo

Odin
02-07-2010, 16:15
O&G:

40 arrerboyz, FC. 270p. 20 shots per turn, 30 with salvo fire. That's some kills.

Then 31 attacks that are str4 in the first round of combat. (Does the boss have str4?)

Ouch.

Dwarfs:

30 Dwarf warriors, GW's, FC. 325p. Could go with 35, wich is 375p.

30 str 5 attacks.

Win! :D

Theo

Ah yes, forgot about Dwarfs! Quarrelers work pretty well too, as they can take GWs can't they? 30 of them, 10 wide will dish out 20 shots per turn and up to 30 S5 attacks in close combat.

Voss
02-07-2010, 16:33
One thing to keep in mind is that horde units, particularly those with spears, will start losing attacks to casualties unless the horde is truly enormous. A 30 model unit will lose attacks as soon as they take wounds, (40 with spears, 50 if also high elf spears). So if you really want attacks back, you need a safety measure- 50 models base, +10 for each additional rank that can attack!

Sygerrik
02-07-2010, 17:21
Horde units are much better when shooting, as you don't have to worry about a clumsy frontage and can instead simply fire with 2.5 ranks. I use units of 25 slaves with slings, and yes they're horribly inaccurate, but they make their points back every time. How can they not? They're the cheapest thing out there!

Idle Scholar
02-07-2010, 18:08
More importantly if most units are still only 5 wide yu're not going to get all your attacks in. So the arrerboyz will only get 19 attacks against a 5 wide 20 mm based unit. Ok for shooters it's more worth it but horde units are generally only going to give out between 6 and seven more attacks at the expense of a minimum of 9 blokes twiddling their thumbs.

I'd guess that barring high point games hordes will be reserved for very cheep troops, particularly those with missile weapons or bows and a sort of median points vs troop cost sweetspot occupied by the likes of Marauders with GW or SV. The more elite you go the bigger the chance of a single spell or artillery weapon ruining your game. That said I guess those armies that can protect their elite deathstars from said ranged attacks (Chaos warriors with MoT, halberd and ward save banner, with a L4 somewhere on the board and a character with the Collar of Khorne maybe?) will have an irritatingly unbeatable unit that murderises all who stand before it.

Odin
02-07-2010, 18:11
Of course, if you know you won't get all your attacks in, or you take too many casualties to be an effective horde, you can always consider reforming.

Oberon
02-07-2010, 18:35
Of course, if you know you won't get all your attacks in, or you take too many casualties to be an effective horde, you can always consider reforming.

Just remember to do that before combat, you can't reform in CC so that the models in contact decrease. Reducing frontage to increase ranks most certainly dos that and is therefore a no-no. Just wanted to mention this, your post isn't the only one by far that mentions reforming for ranks... :rolleyes:

RichBlake
02-07-2010, 21:47
Just remember to do that before combat, you can't reform in CC so that the models in contact decrease. Reducing frontage to increase ranks most certainly dos that and is therefore a no-no. Just wanted to mention this, your post isn't the only one by far that mentions reforming for ranks... :rolleyes:

Unless of course you're fighting a unit 5 wide, in which case you can assume you have 7 in B2B and you can remove 3 people from each rank and put them at the back, thats enough for an extra rank if you have 3 ranks total. This would increase your rank bonus from +2 to +3...

Justicar Valius
02-07-2010, 21:49
The place for 40 marauders with great weapons and the mark of Khorne is in combat ;)

Lordmonkey
02-07-2010, 23:37
Hmm.

Does a High Elf Spear unit deployed 10 wide fight in 4 ranks with ASF and rerolls due to (probably) having higher initiative??

Nocculum
02-07-2010, 23:47
Hmm.

Does a High Elf Spear unit deployed 10 wide fight in 4 ranks with ASF and rerolls due to (probably) having higher initiative??

Yes.

To put it to the point.

(Bad pun is bad :)).

jioop
03-07-2010, 02:11
I heard that the HW 'n Shield ward is stackable with wards you already possess, so I have many fears now - Tzeench marauders in unit of 40 shield and FC 240 points... 5+ ward save. Another horde unit I would fear is Savage Orcs with HW 'n Shield 40 models strong with FC - this is 390 points, potentially 30 attacks, of which 28 is St4 first turn and 3 is St5 from the champion. Make them Big 'Uns and lose the champ, then you have 30 attacks with St5 first round for 535 points and they all have 5+ ward save with T4! If Phoenix Guards could have handweapon and shields, we would be in for a treet, 3+ ward there, but thank heavens that they can't.

Can someone please tell me that the ward save from HW 'n Shield does NOT stack so I don't have these nightmares any more? :cries:

jet_palero
03-07-2010, 02:19
Hmm.

Does a High Elf Spear unit deployed 10 wide fight in 4 ranks with ASF and rerolls due to (probably) having higher initiative??

Normal spears fight 4 ranks in horde. But I thought High elves got to have an additional rank, making 5 ranks of attacks?

Darktan
03-07-2010, 02:19
it'd stack with the tzeen mark.

jioop
03-07-2010, 02:29
Normal spears fight 4 ranks in horde. But I thought High elves got to have an additional rank, making 5 ranks of attacks?

Not really right? Spears fight in two ranks if not charging. Horde gives an extra attack from the rank behind (in reality, the spear users behind hits twice don't they? :p)
High Elves add another rank of fighters for spears, thus 3, and 4 ranks in horde.
End

Darktan
03-07-2010, 02:31
fight in two ranks standard, 3 spears, 4 Helf, 5 horde.

zuriel45
03-07-2010, 02:49
I'm gonna try 17 trolls + throgg (18, 6x3 formation.)

Monster infantry FTW!.

In theory it sounds fun (and scary) but the third rank of trolls get 1 attack, not 3. Only the second rank of monstrous infantry get 3 attacks. I'd rather 7-9 ogres or dogres + throgg than 17 trolls and throgg. Cheaper, almost the same hittyness, only downside is no mutant regen.

chivalrous
03-07-2010, 02:58
I think a Hero with a Black Dragon Egg just got a bit more effective ;)

As cheap as Dark Elf spearelves are at the moment, I don't think I'll merge my standard two blocks of 24 into one big block, the loss in manoeuvrability and redundancy in exchange for one monster unit is a bit too much, especially if it gets hit by anything that forces a panic check.
Still, if I'm trying to refuse a flank, a unit that size might prove a worthwhile risk.

jioop
03-07-2010, 03:01
fight in two ranks standard, 3 spears, 4 Helf, 5 horde.

Ah didn't count the fact that you already fight in two ranks now... My bad never mind

Sygerrik
03-07-2010, 03:16
I think a Hero with a Black Dragon Egg just got a bit more effective ;)

As cheap as Dark Elf spearelves are at the moment, I don't think I'll merge my standard two blocks of 24 into one big block, the loss in manoeuvrability and redundancy in exchange for one monster unit is a bit too much, especially if it gets hit by anything that forces a panic check.
Still, if I'm trying to refuse a flank, a unit that size might prove a worthwhile risk.

There is an item in the BRB that gives you +3 for one round for 20 points. The Egg does give you a BW, but BWs are less effective now on non-flying models, because with potentially enormous charge ranges you're more likely to be engaged before you can use it. If you're still engaged on your turn, you can use it, but if you eat it before you charge you risk failing the charge (much more variable now) and wasting it.

It's still a good item, especially with the boosts to BWs in CC, but it takes finesse to use.

@jloop: It only stacks with MoT, which specifically states that it stacks with other ward saves. No other stacking.

I've played two games against extremely infantry-heavy armies that horded up their elite troops (units of 25 Swordmasters, 30 White Lions, 25 Slayers, 37 Hammerers, 30 Longbeards, 30 Warriors, 30 Spearmen). It's really really really nasty. Yeah, you lose a rank, but this unit chews through enemies with the sheer number of attacks you can bring to bear, even if the enemy is only 5-6 wide.

chivalrous
03-07-2010, 03:33
There is an item in the BRB that gives you +3 for one round for 20 points. The Egg does give you a BW, but BWs are less effective now on non-flying models, because with potentially enormous charge ranges you're more likely to be engaged before you can use it. If you're still engaged on your turn, you can use it, but if you eat it before you charge you risk failing the charge (much more variable now) and wasting it.

I don't want it for the toughness boost, I want it for the breath weapon and potentially forced panic test :evilgrin:
Most horde units are going to be low toughness, low armour save troops. I doubt I'll see many Chaos Warrior or Dwarf hordes... or Ogres for that matter.

ftayl5
03-07-2010, 04:28
I think people are under-estimating horde units. Remember if someone wants a Horde unit they're gonna expect people to want it dead. Therefore to make sure it gets to combat with all fighting ranks intact the will probably take more than 40 or 50 guys.
Jind_Singh was saying that an Empire army at a unit of 70 Halberdiers.
Not only does that unit get 30 (assuming all models in contact) attacks, it has 7 ranks, if your unit does not have 7 ranks, those Halberdiers are stubborn, might have a LD 8+ character and there's probably a BSB somewhere nearby.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BREAK THAT UNIT??????

The bane of horde units of course is the 'no partials' rule

random600
03-07-2010, 07:04
Can someone please tell me that the ward save from HW 'n Shield does NOT stack so I don't have these nightmares any more? :cries:

It does not Stack. Just gives you a 6+ ward. Makes my dwarfs cry as it reduces there chance of saving by a bit.

In the manner of hordes though, i feel they are very situational. The fact is your only ever going to get a facing of 7 wide in most games. Which makes hordes a bit less powered than they originally seemed. The defiantly are not good with people with slow I, as they will lose there fighters quicker and then be at a bigger combat res disadvantage. If you take 30 wide unit, someone just needs to do more than 3 wounds to be eating your fighters. then you start losing extra attacks and since you didn't have full ranks you lose combat res there as well. Hordes need to know they can crush there opponents the first turn of combat or they start losing there effectiveness for the rest of the game. Just my opinion on it so far. I've played two games of 8th and haven't fought a horde yet but this is my theories on it.

snottlebocket
03-07-2010, 08:58
In theory it sounds fun (and scary) but the third rank of trolls get 1 attack, not 3. Only the second rank of monstrous infantry get 3 attacks. I'd rather 7-9 ogres or dogres + throgg than 17 trolls and throgg. Cheaper, almost the same hittyness, only downside is no mutant regen.

So vomit :p

That's pretty decent amount of no armoursave, str5 autohits.

Odin
03-07-2010, 11:05
Can someone please tell me that the ward save from HW 'n Shield does NOT stack so I don't have these nightmares any more? :cries:

It doesn't stack. People seem to have got confused over this. The only ward saves I know of which can stack are the Mark of Tzeentch (which can therefore stack with the parry save from shields giving you a situational 5+ ward), and the Magic Resistance boost to ward saves (MR2 for example now gives you +2 to any ward saves when you're saving against magical attacks).

Odin
03-07-2010, 11:07
In theory it sounds fun (and scary) but the third rank of trolls get 1 attack, not 3. Only the second rank of monstrous infantry get 3 attacks. I'd rather 7-9 ogres or dogres + throgg than 17 trolls and throgg. Cheaper, almost the same hittyness, only downside is no mutant regen.

When you think about how many wounds you will get to regenerate on that troll unit, and the number of times you'll therefore roll for mutant regeneration, you'll realise that unit will get spectacularly good very quickly if your opponent tries to kill it. Losing mutant regen would actually be a big loss.

shortlegs
03-07-2010, 14:45
We do have a lot of threads on multiple sub-forums talking about the horde rule, don't we?

I'll say this again like I said on other threads: if your troops are cheap enough to buy 40-50 of them without breaking a bank, AND they are not facing against an opposing horde formation that outfights them, then mathematically speaking it is almost always better to go horde.

People keep thinking horde only adds 6-7 attacks. Its more than that. A 5-wide unit has 10 attacks against another 5-wide unit. A horde unit has 21 attacks against the same 5-wide unit. Thats 11 more attacks, or over 100% more attacks. That is not insignificant. And it only gets better the wider the enemy is.

For simplicity's sake, let's say you have 2 50-men units of roughly the same fighting capability, one 10x5 and the other 5x10. Mathematically speaking, the horde unit will win combat EVERY ROUND because it racked up more kills, and it would have almost obliterated the other unit by the time it starts to lose either ranks or attacks.

Unless you are facing another horde unit that out-fights you, like goblins against marauders, then you should go deep to last longer, since going wider grants your opponent stronger attacks compared to your weaker attacks. Also, make sure your unit has sufficient numbers to still go relatively deep despite being in horde (for example a 10 man unit in horde is not a good idea). If you have the numbers, and you're fighting against a similarly matched opposing unit(s), always go horde.

Horde isn't for every type of unit, but for those that can AND not facing a stronger horde unit, it really is the way to go. I think many people are underestimating it.

twistinthunder
03-07-2010, 15:25
it may be >100% more attacks be that doesn't mean that you will necessarily get >100% more hits, or even wounds. not to mention that the 10 wide horde unit will either A) cost A LOT more than the 5 wide unit, B) it will probably have a lower initiative,toughness,armour save,strength than the 5 wide unit.

you'll have taken casualties and if you take too many your attack number starts to drop (4 casualties for a ten wide unit to lose an attack) AND the fact that the 5 wide unit is probably just road blocking you.

shortlegs
04-07-2010, 02:12
it may be >100% more attacks be that doesn't mean that you will necessarily get >100% more hits, or even wounds. not to mention that the 10 wide horde unit will either A) cost A LOT more than the 5 wide unit, B) it will probably have a lower initiative,toughness,armour save,strength than the 5 wide unit.
Of course you won't get 100% more hits or wounds, that's just common sense right? But you DON"T need 100% hits or wounds to win the combat. For a horde unit with 2-3 ranks, all you need is 1-2 more casualties than the enemy to win combat. The extra attacks will allow you to achieve that.

As for cost, I did mention that not all units are suitable for horde (such as expensive, elite troops). But those that are should go horde when they can. I also said that a horde vs non-horde of the same size (and thus same cost) will always win.

50 slaves are 100 points. 50 NG with FC is 210 points. 50 halberdiers with FC is 320. 50 orc boys with shield and FC is 330 points. The dreaded 5- khorne marauders with GW and FC is 300 points. Hardly breaking the bank here, are we?

I totally do not get your point of the lower stats. I'm comparing between horde and non-horde formations of the SAME troop, thus there is NO difference in stats whatsoever. It seems that you are comparing a horde unit of cheapish troops vs a similar point cost of expensive elites. In such a case, provided the elite unit is not in horde formation itself, you should still go horde if your numbers are big enough. To give an example, orcs with dual choppas vs 5-wide swordmasters. In non-horde, the orcs do a paltry 3 wounds or so vs the swordmaster's 8. In horde, the orcs do almost the same 8 wounds. Just think how much faster the swordmasters will crumble. A little overly simplified example, but adequate to illustrate my point.


you'll have taken casualties and if you take too many your attack number starts to drop (4 casualties for a ten wide unit to lose an attack) AND the fact that the 5 wide unit is probably just road blocking you.
I wonder where on earth you got the 4 casualties from. If you are a 40-strong horde unit, you need to lose >10 casualties before your attacks start dropping. For 50-strong, you need to lose 20! A non-horde enemy will need quite a few combat rounds to chew through that many surplus troops. And if you say that my numbers can be reduced by shooting or magic, so can my enemy's. I'm talking solely in the context of horde vs non-horde for a given large unit, with all other factors and confounders being equal.

Even if you're facing a smaller, non-horde unit functioning as a road block, by going horde yourself it allows you to chew through that unit over twice as fast. A truly small roadblock unit will not have many ranks left to be steadfast especially if you are 5-deep yourself.

But hey, if you still feel so strongly against going horde, be my guest.. ;)

lelandchaska
04-07-2010, 02:36
Just had my cherry popped on my MoK Marauder unit earlier today. I went up against Bretonnia and of particular concern were 11 Grail Knights with general and bsb in the front rank. I had a unit of 50 marauders MoK with GW, standard and musician. The Grail Knights hit, did 19 wounds, marauders failed to do one wound back (some attacks were forced to go against his characters, but only had three models to choose from anyway). The marauders broke and got ran down. No steadfast because the Knights actually had more ranks.

Ouch.

SilasOfTheLambs
04-07-2010, 02:42
I think basic s3 infantry should not horde, because no matter how many attacks it puts in, it's very unlikely to get through anybody's armor.

Hordes seem to me to increase in potency as the strength of their constituent units increases. Halberdiers (especially with a priest causing them hatred) are more effective. Greatswords are more effective yet, but 40 of them cost a cool 430 pts with command.

Units that have lots of attacks benefit less due to the supporting attacks rule limiting them to 1.

I've seen hordes in three of the 5-6 games I've played. They've all been of halberdiers (empire ones in two cases, bret Men at arms in one case). They didn't really perform that well, and the problem is that they are HUGE and difficult to maneuver, without reforming them into a 5-wide block. Today my team lost a game largely because a 10-man halberdier troop sat there looking at 2 crucial combats... it was well within charge range, but it couldn't avoid friendly units in either one to get into the other one.

IMO, block infantry is not for killing things (except elites like black guard, hammerers, etc). Block infantry is for sticking things until something can come and kill them. Accordingly, I view a horde as a poor investment, and I'd rather take 2 25-packs of the same infantry than a 50-pack.

shortlegs
04-07-2010, 03:05
All I'm saying is that if you have a big unit, then it is almost always better to go horde formation than non-horde, with the caveats listed in my previous posts. It was because of the repeated posts that say horde doesn't give you much more punch that prompted my response. I'm just trying to prove that going horde DOES increase the offensive output very significantly, and as such, if you have a big unit going up against someone who doesn't outfight you, going horde is better than going deep if you have the numbers.

Now, whether you should bring such a large unit of guys is a totally different matter.. I'm arguing solely on the mathematical benefits of going horde, which seems to be missed by many. However, the practical considerations are an entire different ball game, from issues with maneuverability and having multiple smaller units for flanking purposes. But I would still think that it shouldn't be a problem having a single large unit in horde formation anchoring your center with small ones at the flanks. Horde is good, but too much of anything is bad. A mixture of different unit sizes will probably work best.

With the boosts to infantry making it much more dangerous for cavalry and monsters to charge in frontally, and the increased number of infantry attacks, I'll be surprised if infantry will not be doing much killing. Basic infantry attacks may not be strong individually, but those attacks may be sufficient especially when used in large numbers and against other infantry, which seems to be the focus of 8th (compared to say against knights or T6 monsters which were ever so popular in 7th).

shortlegs
04-07-2010, 03:16
Just had my cherry popped on my MoK Marauder unit earlier today. I went up against Bretonnia and of particular concern were 11 Grail Knights with general and bsb in the front rank. I had a unit of 50 marauders MoK with GW, standard and musician. The Grail Knights hit, did 19 wounds, marauders failed to do one wound back (some attacks were forced to go against his characters, but only had three models to choose from anyway). The marauders broke and got ran down. No steadfast because the Knights actually had more ranks.

Ouch.
Bretonnian deathstar.. But such a unit will be very dependent on getting the charge off to gain all those lance attacks, and with charges being so random, I can just see a botched charge roll leaving the hugely expensive unit stranded to be charged in return, especially with a flank THAT long...

But if it hits home, I agree, ouch.. But the outcome wasn't the fault of either your khorne marauders being weak or they being in horde formation. Anything being hit by that deathstar will feel the pain.

Oberon
04-07-2010, 11:31
Using a horde formation against 3-wide bretonnian grail knights is the worst case scenario by far. With 5 wide formation you would have had the same amount of attacs back, but still 6 ranks left and steadfastness for at least two more turns. After the charge, even grail knights can fail to win combats. Maybe next time, don't use your horde unit in a horde formation? :)

lelandchaska
04-07-2010, 13:05
Using a horde formation against 3-wide bretonnian grail knights is the worst case scenario by far. With 5 wide formation you would have had the same amount of attacs back, but still 6 ranks left and steadfastness for at least two more turns. After the charge, even grail knights can fail to win combats. Maybe next time, don't use your horde unit in a horde formation? :)

I learned that the hard way. Figured I'd post it so others don't have to suffer the same pain that I did.

"A wise man learns from his own mistakes. I lucky man learns from others mistakes." So sayeth the fortune cookie.

Oberon
04-07-2010, 13:56
Wise words from a cookie, the wonders of the world never end.

chilledenuff
04-07-2010, 16:03
I'm debating a true horde unit, 100 night gobbos with hand weapon and shield. 10 x 10
Ranks and width (and a ward save, who says hw&shield have been nerfed? that makes the gobbos SO much better!)
355 points with command and netters and all the benefits/drawbacks of such a large unit. Opinions?

Sygerrik
04-07-2010, 17:22
I'd instead go with 60 (10 x 6) and do two or three of these large units. Getting flanked by anything with ranks will ruin your day.

Leth Shyish'phak
04-07-2010, 17:55
I imagine that horde units will be fun with the scenario where you fight along the table rather than across.

You can't flank me when I cover the entire width of the board.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-07-2010, 18:37
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BREAK THAT UNIT??????

The bane of horde units of course is the 'no partials' rule

If I do build my Empire army there will be 2-3 mortars in it. That should neatly solve the problem of horde units.

If the big infantry units does become a feature of 8th edition I expect to see armies packing more and more template weapons as they should be really effective at thinning the numbers.

I expect it will equalise at big (25-35) but not huge units for the most parts.