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Mott
03-07-2010, 17:30
I've been away from the hobby for a while and am curious, are all terminator armies possible with any of the current dex's?

Im not expecting a very competetive list, but with all the fantastic terminator and dreadnought models out now Its a very tempting proposition!

toonboy78
03-07-2010, 17:37
the only stanadard game one i can thing of is a deathwing list using belliel (sp?)

Charistoph
03-07-2010, 17:53
Technically, all Terminator army isn't possible.

However, with the Dark Angels and Space Wolves codecies, it is possible to have them as Troops with the right Special Character. Also, Orks can do Deffwings with Mega-Armoured Nobs, too, without Special Characters.

Some tournaments will allow those SC's, because of this reorganization, but not always.

So keep that in mind when building your force.

self biased
03-07-2010, 17:55
Space Wolves and Dark Angels can field all terminator armies. Both require you take a special character: Logan Grimnar, and Belial respectively. The effective and operational differences between 'Wolfwing' and 'Deathwing' armies are open to debate.

self biased
03-07-2010, 18:03
Technically, all Terminator army isn't possible.

However, with the Dark Angels and Space Wolves codecies, it is possible to have them as Troops with the right Special Character. Also, Orks can do Deffwings with Mega-Armoured Nobs, too, without Special Characters.

Some tournaments will allow those SC's, because of this reorganization, but not always.

So keep that in mind when building your force.

I would like to politely tell you that you're wholly wrong.

While army composition can be modified by any Tournament Organizer, there haven't been any special characters that require an opponent's permission to use for quite some time. Nowhere in the Dark Angels codex does it say that Belial can only be fielded with an opponent's permission the way it used to with many characters from second edition.

Some groups still play with the "no special characters" as a house rule, which is cool (whatever floats your boat, really). However, it's only a house rule; not something hardwired into the main rules.

Charistoph
03-07-2010, 18:11
I would like to politely tell you that you're wholly wrong.

While army composition can be modified by any Tournament Organizer, there haven't been any special characters that require an opponent's permission to use for quite some time. Nowhere in the Dark Angels codex does it say that Belial can only be fielded with an opponent's permission the way it used to with many characters from second edition.

Some groups still play with the "no special characters" as a house rule, which is cool (whatever floats your boat, really). However, it's only a house rule; not something hardwired into the main rules.

No where did I say opponent's permission, I said Tournament, and that's how I left it. Every Tournament is different, with some of them being real anal, and I made that point just so the OP would be prepared for the eventuality.

self biased
03-07-2010, 18:46
Outside of a few very specifically themed tournaments, I've never encountered such a thing in all my days. I wholly acknowledge that there may be events that use strange and unusual army composition.

bobafett012
03-07-2010, 18:47
I've been away from the hobby for a while and am curious, are all terminator armies possible with any of the current dex's?

Im not expecting a very competetive list, but with all the fantastic terminator and dreadnought models out now Its a very tempting proposition!

Yes, deathwing, from the dark angels codex, and wolfwing from the space wolves codex. At the moment the SW version is far superior, and will likely continue to be superior till the DA codex gets an update.

I have seen a few wolfwings make it to the finals of ard boyz, but that doesn't mean its an easy feat, or an easy army to play.


Technically, all Terminator army isn't possible.

However, with the Dark Angels and Space Wolves codecies, it is possible to have them as Troops with the right Special Character. Also, Orks can do Deffwings with Mega-Armoured Nobs, too, without Special Characters.

Some tournaments will allow those SC's, because of this reorganization, but not always.

So keep that in mind when building your force.


Please do not come on here and out and out lie. where in the world would you get that all terminator armies aren't possible?? I have been playing deathwing for over 13 years in local shops, local tourneys, big tourneys and everything in between, and the only time there were ever rules in the dex's about using SC's was 2nd, and 3rd edition. SC's are allowed in every army now with no opponents permission needed because many of the armies in 40k need a SC to even differentiate them from vanilla marines. It was a design change by GW that is quite clear now that anyone and everyone can and are actually welcome to do so simply to gain their armies "special abilities" and or "unlock" a certain army build. (Belial, sammael, logan, shrike, cantor, he'stan, calgar, khan, dante, astorath, Ghazghkull, wazdakka, and the list goes on and on)

Now having said that, you MIGHT run into a small local tourny from time to time that doesn't allow SC's which i personally find to be against any rational thought, because of the way the game is setup theses days. IMO, these tournaments should be avoided, they are not in the spirit of the game. I would be seriously angry if i ever showed up with my DW army of 13 years and they said I couldn't use it because there are no SC's. I have yet to ever run into that situation ever and doubt i ever will.

Mannimarco
03-07-2010, 18:48
Thats it pretty much covered: wolfwing, deathwing and deffwing.

If planetstrike is your thing then pretty much all marines can do it as you get 6 elites and no troops needed as the attacker IIRC. Fond memories of Zhufor with his berserker terminator retinue and 30 khornate marked termys rampaging around.

expensive as hell but planetstrike termy armies are a sight to behold

Grimtuff
03-07-2010, 20:43
No where did I say opponent's permission, I said Tournament, and that's how I left it. Every Tournament is different, with some of them being real anal, and I made that point just so the OP would be prepared for the eventuality.

Then you've just contradicted yourself. If every Tournament is different (which they are) how can you make a blanket statement on how they operate? :eyebrows:

Tournaments could ban all red painted armies if they wanted to.

Schismotive
04-07-2010, 03:21
Don't get me wrong, I love terminators, and sure going all terminators is possible, but its rough. Fielding terminators in general can be pretty risky, you've got low model count, and you really feel the loss when one of them dies. They sure can kick some ass though, so I still like the idea.

Charistoph
04-07-2010, 05:38
Please do not come on here and out and out lie. where in the world would you get that all terminator armies aren't possible?? I have been playing deathwing for over 13 years in local shops, local tourneys, big tourneys and everything in between, and the only time there were ever rules in the dex's about using SC's was 2nd, and 3rd edition. SC's are allowed in every army now with no opponents permission needed because many of the armies in 40k need a SC to even differentiate them from vanilla marines. It was a design change by GW that is quite clear now that anyone and everyone can and are actually welcome to do so simply to gain their armies "special abilities" and or "unlock" a certain army build. (Belial, sammael, logan, shrike, cantor, he'stan, calgar, khan, dante, astorath, Ghazghkull, wazdakka, and the list goes on and on)

I did not lie, and I'm not incorrect, but then, I guess it depends on how you define an all [blank] army. You cannot have Terminator Devastators, Jump Terminators, Bike Terminators, Terminator Vanguards, Terminator Predators, or Terminator Razorbacks. I will concede that my statement was a little misleading, but then it depends on the points level that you will be playing at. Terminator squads are expensive units and they can fill up the points requirements very quickly, especially when they count as Troops.


Now having said that, you MIGHT run into a small local tourny from time to time that doesn't allow SC's which i personally find to be against any rational thought, because of the way the game is setup theses days. IMO, these tournaments should be avoided, they are not in the spirit of the game. I would be seriously angry if i ever showed up with my DW army of 13 years and they said I couldn't use it because there are no SC's. I have yet to ever run into that situation ever and doubt i ever will.

Agreed, the tournament scene has changed to reflect this change that GW has instituted. I also agree that any tournament that denies use of Special Characters that allow for force reorganization, should be avoided. It's also possible that the OP will never every play in a tournament. At which point, the advice about it is a moo point, either way. But, I mentioned it so the OP is aware of the situation, nothing more.


Then you've just contradicted yourself. If every Tournament is different (which they are) how can you make a blanket statement on how they operate? :eyebrows:

Tournaments could ban all red painted armies if they wanted to.

I did not contradict myself, I said SOME tournaments, with no blanket statements involved. You ascribed something that is not there. I don't have a force assembled that is tournament worthy, yet I pay attention to what people say, both at my LGS, and on sites such as this. If I have learned something, I feel it is in my best karmic interest to pass that along. That is all that is intended by my statements. I have no intention of misguiding anyone. But, as with all things internet, it is easy for statements to be misconstrued, misinterpreted, and then blown out of proportion.

AndrewGPaul
04-07-2010, 10:39
I did not lie, and I'm not incorrect, but then, I guess it depends on how you define an all [blank] army. You cannot have Terminator Devastators, Jump Terminators, Bike Terminators, Terminator Vanguards, Terminator Predators, or Terminator Razorbacks.

Eh? What does that have to do with anything? "All-Terminator army" simply means an army with nothing but Terminators in it. Of course it doesn't have tanks, Assault Marines or bikers; that's the point.

Justicar Valius
04-07-2010, 10:45
Although most (most that I have seen to be more precise) Deathwing armies feature either dreadnoughts or Land Raiders or both as they are very much part of the Deathwing, even if they are not all terminators.

Grimtuff
04-07-2010, 10:49
I did not lie, and I'm not incorrect, but then, I guess it depends on how you define an all [blank] army. You cannot have Terminator Devastators, Jump Terminators, Bike Terminators, Terminator Vanguards, Terminator Predators, or Terminator Razorbacks.


Please Warseer, can I have a facepalm emoticon for my birthday? :rolleyes:

spaint2k
04-07-2010, 11:13
moo

Moo!


Please Warseer, can I have a facepalm emoticon for my birthday? :rolleyes:

I'd like a popcorn-eating emoticon.

Godzooky
04-07-2010, 11:40
I'd be all over a Wolfwing army if Logan wasn't such a terrible model. Has anybody ever seen a DW/WW head-to-head, by the way?


Please Warseer, can I have a facepalm emoticon for my birthday? :rolleyes:

Happy birthday, Grimtuff:

Grimtuff
04-07-2010, 11:43
Happy birthday, Grimtuff:

It's not for another 3 months but thanks anyway! :D

Mozzamanx
04-07-2010, 11:46
Deathwing aren't necessarily outclassed, both sides have their ups and downs.

Deathwing:
- Cheaper Chainfists
- Fearless
- Belial is cheap and cheery
- Cheap Venerable Dreadnoughts (Deathwing, not pure Terminator)
- The Apothecary. OH GOD THE APOTHECARY!

Space Wolves:
- Counter Attack
- Cheaper base cost
- Better Wargear, at higher prices
- Logan is hardass


Ultimately its down to taste. Space Wolves are much more customisable, but pay more for each upgrade. If you know how to build it you're sorted, if not then you're stuck with 63pt Hammer-Shield Terminators.
I personally prefer Deathwing. God damn I love my Apothecary.

Thoume
04-07-2010, 12:06
Deathwing aren't necessarily outclassed, both sides have their ups and downs.

Deathwing:
- Cheaper Chainfists
- Fearless
- Belial is cheap and cheery
- Cheap Venerable Dreadnoughts (Deathwing, not pure Terminator)
- The Apothecary. OH GOD THE APOTHECARY!

Space Wolves:
- Counter Attack
- Cheaper base cost
- Better Wargear, at higher prices
- Logan is hardass

Orks:
- More expensive
- Extra wound and attack per model
- Furious Charge
- Kombi-skorchas
- 2 warbosses, 2 meganobz mobs as troops and 3 as elites are your max.
- Warbosses in mega armour are cheaper than both SCs
- Lack of invunrable save. You can take Grotsnik to get it but it means one less mob as troops
- Slow and Purposeful
- Open topped transports making assaults easier

Added Deffwing to the list :p

Mott
04-07-2010, 18:44
I think deathwing sounds right for me, as I was planning on including Dreadnoughts in the force (should have clarified.) Probably not a landraider.

Plus I hate space wolves. Space marines riding wolves.... :eyebrows:

Firmlog
04-07-2010, 21:05
from my experience deathwing works best with 2 squads of bikes to help them teleport in accurately.

if you are playing with landraiders instead that's different though and I haven't played them that way so I can't say.

Bookwrak
04-07-2010, 22:06
Please Warseer, can I have a facepalm emoticon for my birthday? :rolleyes:

I now feel obligated to make a razorback in tactical dreadnought armor.

bobafett012
04-07-2010, 22:17
I think deathwing sounds right for me, as I was planning on including Dreadnoughts in the force (should have clarified.) Probably not a landraider.

Plus I hate space wolves. Space marines riding wolves.... :eyebrows:

if you want to run a successful deathwing army, plan on running LR's(thats plural), well at least if you want to be a purist, if not, then you can run whatever you want out of the DA codex. Pure deathwing, which most of us veterans play, consists of models in terminator armor, dreads(DW dreads should be venerable), and LR's(any variant out of the DA codex, LRC is by far the best).

We play this way because prior to the most rescent DA codex, there was rules limiting a DW army to dreads, LR's and models in term armor actually in the codex, and, well, old habits die hard :D



from my experience deathwing works best with 2 squads of bikes to help them teleport in accurately.

if you are playing with landraiders instead that's different though and I haven't played them that way so I can't say.

This isn't pure deathwing, or an "all terminator army", its doublewing, and its a mixture of ravenwing, and deathwing.

mughi3
05-07-2010, 02:55
Like some of the other posters here i have in the past run a pure DW army for many many years,

It's sad but it's true the wolves do a far better deathwing now than deathwing. the points costs differences are minor, however the performance is like night and day.

I built a proxy adeptus mechanicus army using the wolfwing list for fun so in comparison i find it far more effective in real game experience.

At 2K i only have 15 terminators. one 10 man on foot, one 5 man in a pod. everybody save the characters have a combi-melta. every squad has cyclones(2/1) and every model save 2 with chainfists are rolling with frost blades.
then i toss in logan, njal, arjack(upgrade in the pod) 2 podding venerable dreads with melta/flamer&fist wolf tooth and tail talismans.

Logan's ability to grant his squad special skills every turn (relentless/fearless/tank hunter/prefered enemy)

Njal just simply being on the table causing weather effects

arjacks hammer, counter charge for the entire force and the general improved wargear walk all over anything my DW could do with the current DA dex.

It more than makes up for the slightly higher cost.

Grand Master Raziel
06-07-2010, 15:57
Deathwing:
- Cheaper Chainfists
- Fearless
- Belial is cheap and cheery
- Cheap Venerable Dreadnoughts (Deathwing, not pure Terminator)
- The Apothecary. OH GOD THE APOTHECARY!


Let's not forget the Deathwing Banner. +1 attack to every model in a Terminator Squad? Yes, please! :D


Added Deffwing to the list :p

Begone, xenos scum! No one cares about your pale, heretical imitation of the storied 1rst Company of the Emperor's oldest and greatest chapter! :p

Mentat
06-07-2010, 16:42
Dont forget Deathwing Assault. I have ran Deathwing for a while, and I own the Space Wolf Codex. Wolfwing is different, but not necessarily better in every situation. I like using Deathwing Assault, and I like Fearless. Fearless has always worked out great for me. I generally use only terminator squads (SGT, Assault cannon/PF, LC, SB/PF, SB/CF) with 1 "command" terminator squad (DW banner w/LC, LC/CML, Apoth. w SB/CF, LC, LC). I do have land raiders and dreadnaughts, but I prefer having as many durable troop choices as possible so most often go all infantry.

micf2302
06-07-2010, 17:00
Why oh why do most people run frostblade in there pupwings?!?!?!?!



I mean WC is better against most toughness value and you should have 1-2 chainfist per squad to deal with MC/vehicle. So I don't get why people equip there termies with Frostblades. Frosblade are better than Wolf claw if you use a pistol, which termies can't get!

bobafett012
06-07-2010, 18:11
Dont forget Deathwing Assault. I have ran Deathwing for a while, and I own the Space Wolf Codex. Wolfwing is different, but not necessarily better in every situation. I like using Deathwing Assault, and I like Fearless. Fearless has always worked out great for me. I generally use only terminator squads (SGT, Assault cannon/PF, LC, SB/PF, SB/CF) with 1 "command" terminator squad (DW banner w/LC, LC/CML, Apoth. w SB/CF, LC, LC). I do have land raiders and dreadnaughts, but I prefer having as many durable troop choices as possible so most often go all infantry.

fearless is only good if you play a shooty DW army though. If you play a CC DW army you don't want fearless.

Unfortunatly, I tend to agree with mughi3, I have been playing DW for over a decade and the wolfwing is far superior. The ability to mix and match all kinds of weapons such as the wolfclaws with a SB, for alot cheaper i might add too, logan is sooo much better than belial(captain useless) and easily worth the extra cost imo. Basically, the wolfwing can do everything the DW can do but better AND cheaper.


Why oh why do most people run frostblade in there pupwings?!?!?!?!



I mean WC is better against most toughness value and you should have 1-2 chainfist per squad to deal with MC/vehicle. So I don't get why people equip there termies with Frostblades. Frosblade are better than Wolf claw if you use a pistol, which termies can't get!

I agree %100. Mathhammer will tell you the WC is better is every case except something that is toughness 6+, and with the ability to re-roll hits instead of wounds it becomes much more versitile against things like banshees, daemonettes etc etc that have better WS but low T where the re-roll to wound would be wasted.

burad
06-07-2010, 18:24
Clearly the Deffwing needs Zogwort to turn Logan into a squig to even the odds some.

Mentat
06-07-2010, 18:36
Why wouldn't I want fearless for my HtH guys? Never had a problem with it due to the small squad sizes. The situations where fearless would be a disadvantage to my DW close combat squad are so rare as to not be an issue at all. As far as I know, its only conventional wisdom on the Internet that "Faerless SUX", not in real games.

Orcboy_Phil
06-07-2010, 18:49
Why go for a Termie army when you can have a wrath of Kan. Termies are so 4thed now. Its all about the Dreads now.

Elios Harg
06-07-2010, 19:04
Why wouldn't I want fearless for my HtH guys? Never had a problem with it due to the small squad sizes. The situations where fearless would be a disadvantage to my DW close combat squad are so rare as to not be an issue at all. As far as I know, its only conventional wisdom on the Internet that "Faerless SUX", not in real games.

Agreed, I never run into an issue where fearless is bad for my termies. Ravenwing on the other hand...

thebaz
06-07-2010, 19:15
I would also like to point out if your opponent allows it you are allowed to use a Mortis Patern Dreadnought, which is a heavy weapon on each arm. This is a Dark Angel only Dreadnought, the Rules are in one of the Imperial Armour books. Im not 100% sure which one it is but its something to consider.
The one downside of the Terminator Armies is that they a have a very small amount of numbers, but If you take them all armed with Storm Bolters then they can actually put out a fair ammount of shots.
Mainly its an army you need to use smart much more than others

AndrewGPaul
06-07-2010, 23:52
Quad autocannon are an option for Dreadnoughts in Codex: Space Marines. Quad heavy bolters or lascannon and twin missile launchers are still Mortis-pattern only.

thebaz
07-07-2010, 00:33
Twin Assualt Cannon too I think:)

but its a deffinate way to either add some real AT or AI in the army that has minimal of both and remember

In the old rules you were allowed to take Dreadnoughts as Elites and Heavy I believe, Which would be really nice in the new rules.

Considering the amount of Dreads that BA can wield I don't get why DA can't have but thats just my opinion

spaint2k
07-07-2010, 03:49
Why oh why do most people run frostblade in there pupwings?!?!?!?!



I mean WC is better against most toughness value and you should have 1-2 chainfist per squad to deal with MC/vehicle. So I don't get why people equip there termies with Frostblades. Frosblade are better than Wolf claw if you use a pistol, which termies can't get!

I run a frostblade for three reasons:

1. Not enough wolf claws to equip every model.
2. Looks cool on the model.
3. Might as well burn the extra five points to round out the army.

herostoaces
07-07-2010, 07:58
Go Deathwing. They are still competitive. I see them do well in the local game nights and still stand well in tournaments. Space Wolf is good to. I think their models still look lame and story sucks.

mughi3
07-07-2010, 11:10
Why oh why do most people run frostblade in there pupwings?!?!?!?!
Considering logan can give his unit prefered enemy already for free, i don't need a WC to re-troll to hit, secondly the boost in strength is a huge asset against everything you will encounter. more so than re-rolling to wound.



Agreed, I never run into an issue where fearless is bad for my termies. Ravenwing on the other hand...

Considering the new dex reduced squad size and firepower feerless was just one more unneccisary kick in the teeth given 5th ed changes to CC. 5 man termi squads are far to easy to take out for thier points.

As much as i still love the DA background , until they get a new dex they will not be comparable in performance with the wolf list.

P.S. deathwing assault is over-rated and hardly usable especially without a mixed wing list. and even then it is iffy.

eyescrossed
07-07-2010, 11:20
secondly the boost in strength is a huge asset against everything you will encounter. more so than re-rolling to wound.
What? Str4 with rerolls to wound vs T4 is 75% of hits wounding, whereas Str5 vs T4 is 66% of hits wounding.

Mentat
07-07-2010, 14:28
I don't know how people are using Deathwing assault, but I have found it quite useful. Maybe the Internet way is to deep strike everything in your opponents face in front of a gunline or something. I have found that it is useless if you do that.

Just some examples of how I use DWA:

Deny your opponent a turn of shooting (if you go second, which I usually try to do).
Mass my forces on one side of the board if the opponent is spread out
Mess up Space Marines drop pod assault

The area I usually deep strike into is usually just forward of my deployment zone or near objectives if they are in the middle area of the board. This lets me get into position to capture objectives and be in the 24" range of the assault cannons. Sometimes I hold my entire force in reserve, other times half.

spaint2k
07-07-2010, 17:08
Considering logan can give his unit prefered enemy already for free, i don't need a WC to re-troll to hit, secondly the boost in strength is a huge asset against everything you will encounter. more so than re-rolling to wound.


S5 with no reroll is statistically better than a S4 with reroll only for opponents of toughness 6 or toughness 8 (which are unwoundable with S4).

For all other toughness values, S4 with reroll to wound is more likely to injure your opponent (except T9 or T10, obviously).

micf2302
07-07-2010, 19:38
I run a frostblade for three reasons:

1. Not enough wolf claws to equip every model.
2. Looks cool on the model.
3. Might as well burn the extra five points to round out the army.


Fair enough but I was under the impression you had 10 WC in the box.

Using 5 pts to buy melta bomb is also nice to mess with wound allocation for your SB+WC terminators



secondly the boost in strength is a huge asset against everything you will encounter. more so than re-rolling to wound.

And this is yet another evidence that Mathammer trump experience.


As this shows:


What? Str4 with rerolls to wound vs T4 is 75% of hits wounding, whereas Str5 vs T4 is 66% of hits wounding.

S5 with no reroll is statistically better than a S4 with reroll only for opponents of toughness 6 or toughness 8 (which are unwoundable with S4).

spaint2k
07-07-2010, 21:06
Fair enough but I was under the impression you had 10 WC in the box.


I can't remember offhand but I'm pretty sure you get 8 (four pairs) of WCs in a wolf guard box.

Anyway, my 15 wolfguard and three lone wolves are scrounged from two boxes and a whole bunch of bits that I had from other projects. :)

mughi3
08-07-2010, 11:13
Quote secondly the boost in strength is a huge asset against everything you will encounter. more so than re-rolling to wound.
And this is yet another evidence that Mathammer trump experience.

Actually it is a matter of experience beating out mathhammer. my old DW list had a dedicated claw/hammer squad. and the FB wolf list is just plain better in my book. the strength bonus may not get a re-roll to wound but it makes up for it in the large array of things it becomes more dangerous for.

spaint2k
08-07-2010, 12:02
Actually it is a matter of experience beating out mathhammer. my old DW list had a dedicated claw/hammer squad. and the FB wolf list is just plain better in my book. the strength bonus may not get a re-roll to wound but it makes up for it in the large array of things it becomes more dangerous for.

You must face a lot of T8 enemies then. As I said above, the frostblade is statistically inferior against all Toughness values except T6 (marginally better than WC with reroll) and T8 (which a WC cannot hurt). An experience which says otherwise is statistically unlikely, while an opinion that the frostblade is better is simply contrary to reality.

Zweischneid
08-07-2010, 12:31
An experience which says otherwise is statistically unlikely,


That is plain wrong.

S4 w/reroll has a much smaller Standard Deviation from a smaller mean in a positively skewed distribution. S5 w/o reroll has a much greater variance on a normal distribution. If you base your mathhammer on small-n calculations, as the law of large numbers tends not to give an accurate representation of a 40K game with only 5 or 6 turns, superiour outcomes of the Frostblade are not at all statistically unlikely.

Badger[Fr]
08-07-2010, 12:42
I fail to see how Fearless is an issue for Deathwing Terminator squads. More often than not, they will win combat, and if they don't, well, it means that there isn't much left of your five-man squad in the first place.

Malagate
08-07-2010, 13:36
;4800207']I fail to see how Fearless is an issue for Deathwing Terminator squads. More often than not, they will win combat, and if they don't, well, it means that there isn't much left of your five-man squad in the first place.

I agree with this. I can see how fearless will screw over easily wounded units like swarms and will screw up multi-charges where a tough but small unit charges alongside a numerous but easily killed fearless unit, but how does fearless screw over small and tough units like terminators? Especially if the entire army is made up of small and tough units?

Also whilst I can see how str 4 attacks with re-rolls to hit can be better than plain ol' str 5 attacks, that still doesn't address str 5 attacks with re-rolls to hit. Thanks to Logan granting preferred enemy, who you have to take because it's a wolfwing list, you can get those str 5 re-rolls for at least one squad. Don't write as if he won't be there.

Of course, the ultimate question would be if wolf claw rules and preferred enemy can stack...re-roll to hit with preferred enemy, re-roll to wound with the claws...ouchies. Still, preferred enemy from Logan could still work out better for stuff you really want to land hits with, like chainfists.

spaint2k
08-07-2010, 13:47
That is plain wrong.


Can we just agree then that it (a superior outcome from the Frostblade) is LESS likely (than a superior outcome with a Wolf Claw)?



S4 w/reroll has a much smaller Standard Deviation from a smaller mean in a positively skewed distribution. S5 w/o reroll has a much greater variance on a normal distribution. If you base your mathhammer on small-n calculations, as the law of large numbers tends not to give an accurate representation of a 40K game with only 5 or 6 turns, superiour outcomes of the Frostblade are not at all statistically unlikely.

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining it.



Also whilst I can see how str 4 attacks with re-rolls to hit can be better than plain ol' str 5 attacks, that still doesn't address str 5 attacks with re-rolls to hit. Thanks to Logan granting preferred enemy, who you have to take because it's a wolfwing list, you can get those str 5 re-rolls for at least one squad. Don't write as if he won't be there.

I don't see how this is relevant because this:



Of course, the ultimate question would be if wolf claw rules and preferred enemy can stack...re-roll to hit with preferred enemy, re-roll to wound with the claws...ouchies.

is a given. Why wouldn't it be?

In other words, the same squad (equipped with either single Wolf Claws or Frostblade) and also accompanied by Logan will either have:
S4 attacks, rerolling to hit AND rerolling to wound.
S5 attacks, rerolling to hit.

Since both units have the same probability of hitting, we simply come back to the problem of rolling to wound.

mughi3
08-07-2010, 21:51
You must face a lot of T8 enemies then. As I said above, the frostblade is statistically inferior against all Toughness values except T6 (marginally better than WC with reroll) and T8 (which a WC cannot hurt). An experience which says otherwise is statistically unlikely, while an opinion that the frostblade is better is simply contrary to reality.

Again it is the broad spectrum of the game, a higher strength makes you more of a threat to everything-bikes, T3 you now wound on a 2+ , rear AV 10 on vehicles (which re-rolls from WCs to wound do not apply to) and of course higher toughness units. it's a general overall increase to all units not just how it performs against T4 units.

I build my armies as a standard RTT style-take all comers list(we have a 40K league), if i only battle marines all the time i could see the need for WCs, however since i need to be able to deal with everything FBs become a better choice.

marshal odysseus
08-07-2010, 22:44
with my experience with wolf wing well in my case chaos wolf wing, is far more powerful than deathwing the combat ability of counter attack is an excellent addition and means you can hang back and pummel opponents with firepower and not have to worry about charging them, also just by the fact of having 3 lonewolves with chain fists and storm shields is to die for :P !

eyescrossed
09-07-2010, 07:17
Again it is the broad spectrum of the game, a higher strength makes you more of a threat to everything-bikes, T3 you now wound on a 2+ , rear AV 10 on vehicles (which re-rolls from WCs to wound do not apply to) and of course higher toughness units. it's a general overall increase to all units not just how it performs against T4 units.
Besides vehicles,

No it doesn't :eyebrows:

spaint2k
09-07-2010, 07:57
Again it is the broad spectrum of the game, a higher strength makes you more of a threat to everything-bikes, T3 you now wound on a 2+ , rear AV 10 on vehicles (which re-rolls from WCs to wound do not apply to) and of course higher toughness units. it's a general overall increase to all units not just how it performs against T4 units.


I had thought about the vehicles but really, that's what a chainfist is for.

And really, against the other toughness values (again, except for T8 and T6) the frostblade is inferior. You can do the math yourself.

S4 vs T3 wounds on a 3+
So it fails to wound 2 times out of 6.
With a reroll, your chance of failing to wound is 2/6 * 2/6 = 4/36 (1/9). In other words, you'll wound 88.89% of the time.

S5 vs T3 wounds on a 2+
Which means that you will wound 83.33% of the time.

And I'm not a statistician, but perhaps Zweischneid can put in his 2 cents to show that the wolf claw will be the more reliable choice of the two in this situation (I'm not sure, but I *think* it should be, if I understood his previous post correctly).

Korras
09-07-2010, 08:06
as for the wolfclaw vs. Frostblade discussion.. with a Frostblade, you leave room for a pistol, or, for more points, a stormshield. I'd say that should factor in, too. alternatively, you could drop an attack, and go frostblade/wolfclaw. I'm not entirely sure of this, but doesn't this give the model S5 attacks, and rerolls? I thought those characteristics were 'awarded' to the model, not the arms.

eyescrossed
09-07-2010, 08:12
You can't use 2 special weapon effects, otherwise you could take a Powerfist and Lightning Claw to reroll to Wound at Str8.

spaint2k
09-07-2010, 08:14
as for the wolfclaw vs. Frostblade discussion.. with a Frostblade, you leave room for a pistol, or, for more points, a stormshield. I'd say that should factor in, too. alternatively, you could drop an attack, and go frostblade/wolfclaw. I'm not entirely sure of this, but doesn't this give the model S5 attacks, and rerolls? I thought those characteristics were 'awarded' to the model, not the arms.

Terminators can't use pistols. You can't get an extra attack in combination with the frostblade unless you took another frostblade or power weapon instead of a ranged weapon (and why would you do that?)

A model equipped with a single wolf claw could take a stormshield just as easily as one equipped with a frostblade.

If you were equipped with a frostblade+wolf claw combo you would have to choose which weapon you were using for the combat.

Korras
09-07-2010, 09:58
oh, whoops.. I somehow missed the part that this was about termies.. my bad..

AndrewGPaul
09-07-2010, 12:48
Terminators can't use pistols.

It's not that they can't, just that there's only one character who's allowed to use one.

micf2302
09-07-2010, 17:35
Again it is the broad spectrum of the game, a higher strength makes you more of a threat to everything-bikes, T3 you now wound on a 2+ , rear AV 10 on vehicles (which re-rolls from WCs to wound do not apply to) and of course higher toughness units. it's a general overall increase to all units not just how it performs against T4 units.

I build my armies as a standard RTT style-take all comers list(we have a 40K league), if i only battle marines all the time i could see the need for WCs, however since i need to be able to deal with everything FBs become a better choice.


Whatever...

This is pure non sense. As everyone tries to show you, against tanks and T8 you better off with frostblades (and T6 actually, with non chessex dices). If you want to use a Frostblade for these reasons fair enough... But stop pretending it's better VS ANYTHING ELSE. IT IS QUITE SIMPLY NOT TRUE (Well over a large sample. But your whole wargaming experience is a freaking large sample!)

Seriously, there should be laws against people saying nonsense over the internet!



That is plain wrong.

S4 w/reroll has a much smaller Standard Deviation from a smaller mean in a positively skewed distribution. S5 w/o reroll has a much greater variance on a normal distribution. If you base your mathhammer on small-n calculations, as the law of large numbers tends not to give an accurate representation of a 40K game with only 5 or 6 turns, superiour outcomes of the Frostblade are not at all statistically unlikely.

LOL and that is also nonsense. Even if 2 random variables had the same distribution, standard deviation AND expected value it would still be extremely unlikely for the two RV to come out with the same mean in a small sample (assuming that the standard deviation does not tend toward 0).

I understand your point, but it brings nothing to the discussion apart from confussing people who are already confused about this issue (ie: mughi3).


Over a large sample (which all of your games of WH40k put togeter will be) the Wolf Claw will beat the frostblades against most things. Granted, T8, T6 and vehicles are the exception.

But people need to stop claiming that Frostblades are better against a much wider range of T(WE ARE TALKING ON TERMIES HERE). This is simply not true no matter what a small sample experiment as shown you (And actually, since chessex dice don't have an equal probability for every outcome, I have been told that they have a higher probability to get a 1, WC are probably even that much better than what I am claiming!).



Here are the numbers:
With probabilities 1/6 for every possible events on a D6
T 2 3 4 5 6
FB 83% 83% 67% 50% 33%
WC 97% 89% 75% 56% 31%



With porbability 29% for a 1 on a D6 and even for the rest (which is what I believer are true probabilities on standard chessex dices)
T 2 3 4 5 6
FB 71% 57% 43% 28% 14%
WC 92% 81% 67% 49% 26%


The tables shows the probabilities of wounding with a hit of the given weapon. Since probability to hit is equal for both type of weapons (as is Number of attacks), WC clearlies come out on top. If you are using skewed, read chessex, dices your even better off with WC.


Also keep in mind that WC are 5 pts cheaper

bobafett012
09-07-2010, 19:13
;4800207']I fail to see how Fearless is an issue for Deathwing Terminator squads. More often than not, they will win combat, and if they don't, well, it means that there isn't much left of your five-man squad in the first place.

I didn't say it was some big issue, I merely said:


If you play a CC DW army you don't want fearless.


It was more of a blanket statement for any CC army(mainly marine CC armies since we can't be swept)


Its not going to come into play too often I agree, but first off, DW terms with power fists or TH aren't the best CC units in the world. we only get 4+ invul IN CC ONLY, and they will get eaten by almost any dedicated CC unit, specially ones that higher I than them. So on the chance that you lose 2-3 terms(or 4, even a single term is a scoring unit in DW after all) after getting charged and lose combat, it would be nice to break.

I agree its better on squads such as my 10 man BA assault squads, but it comes up from time to time in my DW games too and i wish I could break, although since I play a shooty DW, I like fearless since it keeps me from breaking after taking shooting casualties.

mughi3
10-07-2010, 10:16
I didn't say it was some big issue, I merely said:




It was more of a blanket statement for any CC army(mainly marine CC armies since we can't be swept)


Its not going to come into play too often I agree, but first off, DW terms with power fists or TH aren't the best CC units in the world. we only get 4+ invul IN CC ONLY, and they will get eaten by almost any dedicated CC unit, specially ones that higher I than them. So on the chance that you lose 2-3 terms(or 4, even a single term is a scoring unit in DW after all) after getting charged and lose combat, it would be nice to break.

I agree its better on squads such as my 10 man BA assault squads, but it comes up from time to time in my DW games too and i wish I could break, although since I play a shooty DW, I like fearless since it keeps me from breaking after taking shooting casualties.

I think the examples given mistakenly assume a single 5 man DW squad is in the equation when in most cases it is multiple squads as DW can only really funtion as a pure force by focusing the entire force on one part of the enemy army. in this instance wounds spread across the entire combat ala 5th ed. force each squad to take multiple saves for being fearless if they loose combat. make them roll enough dice and 1s happen. more often than an un-modifieable LD 10 being failed with stubborn(like they used to be).


micf2302
first off this is a civil debate, or you predispose yourself to laws against people that disagree with your opnion.

As i stated previously because i do have to face many vehicles and higher T units the frost balde is a better option in my force. while i do have a chainfist or something akin to it in every squad. i prefer to give myself even a bit more of an edge by having more attacks that might do do something to said tough uinits than relying on one guy to get it done.

secondly you can run mathhammer numbers till your blue in the face, it's just a dice average and means literally nothing on the table. i routinely see dice hammer fail to reality randomness.

lastly your comparison is skewed because it fails to take into account things WCs cannot even hurt(or get a re-roll against) that FB can. this translates into more versatility.

eyescrossed
10-07-2010, 15:14
secondly you can run mathhammer numbers till your blue in the face, it's just a dice average and means literally nothing on the table. i routinely see dice hammer fail to reality randomness.
You know, that argument holds as much water as a bucket made of Swiss cheese. It's exactly the same as saying "Well I've seen a single Guardsman finish off a Bloodthirster in close combat, so charging my IG into combat with them is a viable tactic."



lastly your comparison is skewed because it fails to take into account things WCs cannot even hurt(or get a re-roll against) that FB can. this translates into more versatility.
The only things in the game the Wolf Claw can't hurt that a Frost Blade can?

C'tan
Wraithlords
3 Leman Russ variants, a Tau vehicle or two and Killa Kans, which the Frost Blade can only glance

That, and they cost 5 points more.

bobafett012
10-07-2010, 16:42
I think the examples given mistakenly assume a single 5 man DW squad is in the equation when in most cases it is multiple squads as DW can only really funtion as a pure force by focusing the entire force on one part of the enemy army. in this instance wounds spread across the entire combat ala 5th ed. force each squad to take multiple saves for being fearless if they loose combat. make them roll enough dice and 1s happen. more often than an un-modifieable LD 10 being failed with stubborn(like they used to be).

which all this goes right out the window when you GET charged. As i said, the situation doesn't come up all too often but not having fearless would help out on occasion.



secondly you can run mathhammer numbers till your blue in the face, it's just a dice average and means literally nothing on the table. i routinely see dice hammer fail to reality randomness.

This statement is akin to saying numbers lie. You can try to tell people that mathhammer "means litterally nothing on the table" till your blue in the face but you will lose all credibility. Mathhammer is a very importnat tool for the competative gamer. It helps you to see a great many things that you would not had you not known the numbers.

WC's are certainly better than frost blades in virtually every situation, the math will never lie. If you think by seeing games where mathhammer doesn't hold up proves your point, you don't understand averages. Mathhammer will always be right over time. You can't base your opinions off a few games, thats ludacris. If you played blackjack with out using math and following the numbers, you would never win consistently, and you would be lucky to win at all.

micf2302
10-07-2010, 22:21
secondly you can run mathhammer numbers till your blue in the face, it's just a dice average and means literally nothing on the table. i routinely see dice hammer fail to reality randomness.



This is the only part of your post that makes me angry and I'd really like people to stop saying that! You can say:

''I don't care about mathhammer''
''It's to complicated for me''
''I'd rather play like I like''

All of these line are all valide to me. It's just not true that Mathhammer WON'T improve your play. Knowing what will happen on average means that, by stacking the odds on your side you should start to win more and more games.

If I started arguing even more it's that you started saying that FB were better against T3, T5 etc. This is simply not true. And I will always come out when I see blatant mistake like that. If you don't care about Mathhammer, fair enough. But don't start throwing your onw biased mathhammer around!


Anyways, I just wanted you to stop pretending that FB are universaly better. Which you have admitted too and this discussion is over on my part. If people think it is a good idea to go hunt tank (or wraithlord) in melee with their terminators than by all mean go for the FB (why not PF or CF, i'm baffled but oh well, I have stoped to try and understand your logic).