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Malakai
03-07-2010, 22:09
Ok, I admit that it's been a while since I've played any Warhammer. 40K and Epic is where I've spent my gaming hours over the past couple of years, but still I've played Warhammer on and off since 3rd or 4th (HE Spearmen and Goblin set). Still I ;don't really get where GW is going with this living terrain thing.

On the surface the new edition seems cool. HUGE book=great. More background and art=awesome. Full color=about time. Still reading through the current WD everyone keeps going on about how magick has infused the land and even a stone wall can be a death trap, wtf. Is this because they're trying to compensate for the fact that fantasy is all taking place on one world?

Catch me up guys. I haven't really been keeping up that much with fantasy so admittedly I don't know all of the nuances that some of the veteran players may have picked up on.

I guess what I'm asking is, what is the direction of the new Warhammer and more imp[ortantly why the hell is Matt Ward the author?

~PrometheuS~
03-07-2010, 22:59
Make the game more interesting?

KrisPicman
03-07-2010, 23:40
Just my opinion here but the new terrain rule are F$%^&*@ retarded.

Grimstonefire
04-07-2010, 00:06
They knew they wanted to sell more terrain, so in order for people to need to buy as much as possible it had to have multiple rules. Or something like that.

Another reason why (and I blame all the design team for this, Phil included), is because they have extended the area of warping from the cataclysm (when the gate collapsed) to cover ever single square inch of the warhammer world.

Perhaps it was always like this, but the fact that fluffwise this is a huge leap (imo) makes the terrain rules themselves stupid.

Considering that each soldier is supposed to represent 20, it means that the crazy terrain is really that close together in the warhammer world because of their proximity on our battlefields, which is completely insane.

I.e. if you imagine you were playing with 20x as many troops, the terrain features would mostly be much larger (to compensate), and yet they would all still be within the battlefield.

House rule it.

NitrosOkay
04-07-2010, 00:12
I kind of enjoy the terrain actually having an impact on a battle.

Line up armies opposite pitched battle no terrain worth mentioning gets boring after awhile.

RichBlake
04-07-2010, 03:10
They knew they wanted to sell more terrain, so in order for people to need to buy as much as possible it had to have multiple rules. Or something like that.


Not really, any Forest can represent any of the forests listed.

OK if you want to use the random terrain generator chart then yes you do need to spend a lot if you want to do it properly as you'd need something like 8 different buildings, 6 different statues, 3 different temples, 4 different forest etc etc.

If you're playing with friends and you own maybe one building, a few hills and a couple of forests thats fine too, the only rule you'll need to follow is rolling on the chart as you enter the forest.


Another reason why (and I blame all the design team for this, Phil included), is because they have extended the area of warping from the cataclysm (when the gate collapsed) to cover ever single square inch of the warhammer world.

Perhaps it was always like this, but the fact that fluffwise this is a huge leap (imo) makes the terrain rules themselves stupid.

Not really, as far as I'm aware the Fantasy setting of Warhammer has always been "this place is lousy with magic". In fact it's so lousy with magic that it comes down on the wind (like the smell of the sea I guess).

There have always been spooky forests, mystical rivers and mythological creatures, they have simply put the emphasis on the fact that the Warhammer World is nothing like say 16-18th centuary Earth, it's totally bizarre and out there and all the races deal with that in their own way.



Considering that each soldier is supposed to represent 20, it means that the crazy terrain is really that close together in the warhammer world because of their proximity on our battlefields, which is completely insane.

I.e. if you imagine you were playing with 20x as many troops, the terrain features would mostly be much larger (to compensate), and yet they would all still be within the battlefield.


What? It's been a long time since Warhammer models represented some abstract number of troops. Unless it says that each trooper represents 20 in the new edition it's been like for like for some time... The new rules in the new edition represent this better I feel.


House rule it.

Of course no matter what I nor the GW design team thinks or says everyone who disagrees can always house rule it. In fact I'd encourage them to do so as long as they don't plan on going to tournaments, even then only because you'll be used toa different game.

Lord Dan
04-07-2010, 03:30
I'm torn. While I enjoy the concept of random events during a battle, the idea that literally EVERY piece of terrain has been warped by chaos (and by extension, fluffwise, every road, every house, every front lawn...) is just a little overwhelming.

I would have been happier if one piece of terrain was randomized to be influenced by chaos or something. The idea of walls biting my troops is a bit too trippy.

chamelion 6
04-07-2010, 03:34
I think it was added as just one more element in fleshing out the edition's portrayal of the Warhammer world. For me a wecomed addition to the game.

Remember, as a gaming group you can use it as you see fit, add modifiers to other terrain to make it more mundane but difficult. Let your imagination run with it.

I already have some ideas for scenarios that will showcase some of this magical terrain and make it factor into the objective of the game.

Imagine the old Sinbad movies... Two waring parties fighting to get to the magic oracle that grants some random benefit... or curse.

TheGreatWhiteRat
04-07-2010, 07:30
Does the terrain have to be magical all the time in the Warhammer world? To me it seems like this is something that tends to happen when the winds of magic blow over a battle field. All those intense emotions and wizards taping the winds is bound to have some side effects.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-07-2010, 08:19
Because the designers thought it would be a fun thing to add to the game?

Have to admit it's one of the things that have made me more interested in trying Warhammer again, it sounds like it could be good fun.

Now every piece of terrain all the time does sound like a bit much but then you can always not use it. The terrain rules have traditionally always been the area with the most house rules (in fact no gaming group I've ever been a part of have used the terrain rules exactly as they are in the rulebook) so it's hardly a big problem.

So it's more like "this is some extra stuff you can use if you think it would be fun" rather than "you have to use this on the pain of death!"

Jedi152
04-07-2010, 08:42
I believe it's an attempt to try and make Warhammer different to other 28mm fantasy rulesets.

They're really pushing it with the 'moving, groaning mountains' and 'rains of skulls' in Phil Kelly's Youtube video.

Denny_Crane
04-07-2010, 08:47
I have read stuff from other editions about people complaining terrain doesn't do enough in game and so on. Now terrain is actually doing stuff people complain that terrain is too much. WTF?

Skalfgrimm
04-07-2010, 11:35
I have read stuff from other editions about people complaining terrain doesn't do enough in game and so on. Now terrain is actually doing stuff people complain that terrain is too much. WTF?
1. You assume that the people complaining about about the new terrain are the same that complained about the old.

2.You assume that any change should satisfy complainers. There were specific complains that will not be and should not be satisfied by any odd change.

I hope you see the dishonesty in your post.

Lord Dan
04-07-2010, 11:43
I have read stuff from other editions about people complaining terrain doesn't do enough in game and so on. Now terrain is actually doing stuff people complain that terrain is too much. WTF?

First people complain about the city being too populated. Then we kill everyone in the city and people start complaining about that too. Wtf?

Grimstonefire
04-07-2010, 12:34
My main gripe with the rules is the number of crazy things that can happen on a single battlefield because of the number of terrain features. I think having fewer features, but forcing a bigger 'footprint' would have been the way to go.

Having say a maximum of 2 crazy things going on would be more realistic imo. They could have made it simpler by saying that all terrain features of the same type have the same effect when rolled for. (e.g. all forests become mushroom forests etc). Fluffwise this would show that the 'forest' on this battlefield is more than just a few trees, but it is actually the same forest covering 25% of the board etc.

This is one thing my group will house rule. Once we get a proper look at the book we'll make our rules into a pdf.

darkstar
04-07-2010, 12:35
Magical terrain is an awesome concept, especially if, as we seemed unable to find one, there is an absence of terrain limiting movement for the most part. And not every bit of terrain is magical, there are D6 tables for each terrain type most of which have mundane terrain 1/3rd the time.

horror
04-07-2010, 12:45
Me and my friends will probably play with 1 - 2 pieces of living terrain max.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 12:59
It's a bit silly if you use the terrain generator without actually thinking.
But if you just place the terrain yourself and deploy some normal woods and lakes and then maybe 1-2 special pieces it's great fun.

Malakai
04-07-2010, 13:14
And not every bit of terrain is magical, there are D6 tables for each terrain type most of which have mundane terrain 1/3rd the time.

Terrain is magical 2/3rds of the time?! :wtf:

Wow. That's just..silly. It'll be interesting to see how pick up games will be affected by the new terrain rules. Personally I think they will be largely ignored.

Honestly, as if terrain wasn't hard enough to find time to model (let alone buy in addition to the army) you are now encouraged to make specialty features like bloody trees and rivers of lava. Pure silliness GW.

Usually I'm excited with the release of new editions (barring 3rd ed 40K), but for the first time with WFB I'm feeling apprehensive.

Hopefully when the starter box comes out I'll look more favorably on it.

CrystalSphere
04-07-2010, 13:14
I donīt like the terrain rules, mainly because it is all random (that word goes along with many things in 8th edition) and many times it makes no sense.

I remember in the 6th edition rulebook that there were several ways of generating terrain depending of the part of the warhamemr world the battle was on. For example in lustria there was a high chance to play with forests and lakes, while in nehekhara there was a dry river and oasis.

What i would like is a system when you first pick where the battle takes place, and then you roll dices to see exactly which elements you get. There could be some elements that you must always get, like forests in athel loren. Then there could be a army wide rule depending of the place, like enviromental hazard in the desert of chaos, or extreme heat in nehekhara (anyone remember that scenario from the 6th edition rulebook? The one about mercenaries escaping from the tomb kings).

Things like that would make the terrain interact with the game, but not scary blood trees coming out of nowhere, but things that makes sense depending of where the battle takes place. I donī t think it is so hard to make the pitched battles more interesting, GW just opted for the easy route to make terrain affects the battle with totally random and weird effects, no sense in it at all.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-07-2010, 13:20
What i would like is a system when you first pick where the battle takes place, and then you roll dices to see exactly which elements you get.

Sounds good, why don't you write up a few random terrain lists that does that then? You can even adapt it to your actual terrain collection then and make it really useful.

If the complaints is about the random terrain generator in the book then the simple answer is change it or don't use it.

I couldn't care less what they put in there as I don't imagine I'll ever use it. We will probably do what we always have done, set it up in some mutual agreeable manner, including deciding how many/if any magical pieces of terrain.

Skalfgrimm
04-07-2010, 13:21
Terrain is magical 2/3rds of the time?! :wtf:
For forrests and rivers it is 5/6, not 2/3.


Wow. That's just..silly. It'll be interesting to see how pick up games will be affected by the new terrain rules. Personally I think they will be largely ignored.
Letīs hope so.

Dungeon_Lawyer
04-07-2010, 13:38
Of course no matter what I nor the GW design team thinks or says everyone who disagrees can always house rule it. In fact I'd encourage them to do so as long as they don't plan on going to tournaments, even then only because you'll be used toa different game.

IMO the new terrain rules will be the first thing that the Indy GT's will get rid of.

The "official" GW run events I imagine will keep it-Since they will be ordered to do so, but the indy GT's ? No.

The new terrain generator set-up rules and the actual magic terrain itself is a really unweildy aspect of the new edition.

Greymarch
04-07-2010, 14:35
Personally I'd just make a maximum number of living terrain equal to the number of mages in play. Winds of magic stirred up and all that.

Hellebore
04-07-2010, 15:14
Warhammer is infused with magic, but the only place talking mountains etc exist is at the polar chaos wastes. There are places in the warhammer world where dark magic has pooled and corrupted the trees etc, but you'll be hardpressed to read about every hedge and thicket attempting to eat passersby in any Warhammer story, in army books or otherwise (excepting Wood Elf and Chaos books).

I don't see a problem with there being SOME terrain that is wierd, because there WILL be some, but it's highly unlikely that every copse of trees, mountain etc is a mutant freak.

And the idea that the one mutant mountain is being fought beneath continuously is silly as well. Raining skulls only happens within the chaos wastes, or when Morrslieb is brightest, not every tuesday at 5pm.

The warhammer world's economies and governments couldn't function if every forest, glade, hedge, rock, moor and mountain was out to get them - some of the most famous places are BUILT on these kinds of areas.

I can just imagine all the people in Middenheim having daily discussions with the Faustschlag about the weather... :rolleyes:

Hopefully the descriptions given have been hyperbolic rather than an indication of where GW wants the Warhammer world to go. Placing the entire planet in the chaos wastes would be one of the dumbest things they could do, rendering the whole setting meaningless as every bookshelf and oak tree starts crying acid blood that turns everyone into yellow goo... :eyebrows:

What happened to the 'last vestiges of order holding back the night'?

Hellebore

Cherrystone
04-07-2010, 15:27
Agree with the above.
In all the novals and countless source books and WFRP books the mental stuff only really appears on a regular basis near the Realms of chaos.
Magic, supernatural entities, monsters are to most common folk myth and legend - such talk and the witchhunters be after you (the last wfrp bestery released 3 or 4 years ago emphized this point).

Maybe 1 in 6 chance for the games sake but now 'normal' woods (and rivers etc) are what is rare, turning a gritty low fantasy (on the surface) world into a d&d high fantasy setting seems to be the new approach. Maybe they should of just started again on a different world.

Lord Dan
04-07-2010, 19:20
Raining skulls only happens within the chaos wastes, or when Morrslieb is brightest, not every tuesday at 5pm.

This is awesome.

Malakai
04-07-2010, 20:43
The way in which they've described the terrain in the Warhammer world (at least in WD) seems as if they are trying to retroactively say that in the fluff it has always been this way. That irks me.

I can understand GW wanting to make the Warhammer world unique to other fantasy worlds, but this seems like an asinine way to go about it. Surely the design staff could have brainstormed up something more subtle than this.

And yes I read the rivers ratio a few hrs ago. It had escaped me before. 5/6ths of the time it is magical?! :eyebrows: Christ on a stick! What are they thinking?

Oh well, welcome to the era of Matt Ward. Wow I miss Alessio.. :(

O&G'sRule
04-07-2010, 20:44
I love the terrain rules. Anything that prevents one game being as close to a replica to the last time you played the same army has to be good. I like the fact that you have good and bad elements, but then I'm an O&G player so enjoy the unexpected. I guess if you're an undead, dwarf or elf player you might be less accustomed to things being slightly out of your control, and having something else to think about.

chamelion 6
04-07-2010, 20:52
This is one of the easiest things to fix if you don't like it. For normal terrain use the old rules or some modification of them. Develop a table of terrain modifiers for your games.

Start the game with a pre roll for each piece of terrain. Depending on where on the map the game is determins the roll required for gettin magical terrain. For instance only on a six, otherwise it is normal and no roll on the terrain chart is used. On a six you roll to see what it is................

Or at the beginning of the scenario decide on a percentage and roll percentage dice to see if you wind up with magical terrain.

Take that a step further. Decide that there is only maybe a 5% chance of anything magical... roll a percentage dice and if it falls outside of that 5% move on and just use normal terrain.

Just takes a little imagination.....

Witchblade
04-07-2010, 21:10
I believe it's an attempt to try and make Warhammer different to other 28mm fantasy rulesets.

They're really pushing it with the 'moving, groaning mountains' and 'rains of skulls' in Phil Kelly's Youtube video.
While the greater importance of varying and multiple terrain pieces is a nice move marketing-wise, I agree they seem to have gone rather overboard with the new terrain rules. They don't add to the game or make it more 'immersive' for me. Maybe if you have 10 different game boards and 100 terrain pieces at your disposal...

xxRavenxx
04-07-2010, 21:19
Removing the randomness is SO easy. Roll on the terrain table. If it says woods. Put down *normal* woods.

If it says magic river, drop the regular type down.

Same for buildings, ruins, etc.

Drop the item, but dont use the "extras".


I much prefer the rules to exist for those who would like to use them (I personally dont) than for them to be left out.

Its win/win this way round.

decker_cky
04-07-2010, 21:32
I don't mind the mysterious woods, rivers and swamps, but it shouldn't be an always type thing. On the table generation, it should be something like 1-3 normal woods, 4-6 mysterious making less than 25% actually magical (there are a number of mundane mysterious results).

chamelion 6
05-07-2010, 00:45
I don't mind the mysterious woods, rivers and swamps, but it shouldn't be an always type thing. On the table generation, it should be something like 1-3 normal woods, 4-6 mysterious making less than 25% actually magical (there are a number of mundane mysterious results).

So do it that way.

;)

JDman
05-07-2010, 01:39
I cant wait, it definitely goes along the lines of "warhammer 8th edition is all about the fun".

People are already dismissing it and are going to miss out, but thats ok warhammer is a beer and pretzels game and you can choose to play how you want.

Hellebore
05-07-2010, 02:03
The problem is more the implications about the SETTING, which for some of us is the only reason we actually PLAY warhammer.

The warhammer world is screwed up, but it's not ALL the realm of chaos where custard rains from the sky and people bleed mice.

The implications actually cause far more problems than they 'solve' - which in this particular case seem to be shallow reasons like 'our Warhammer is TOTALLY different cuz it has skull rain!'.

A world could not have functioning coherent civilisations if all that random crap was happening continuously. just look at the peoples living in the chaos wastes; wandering hunter gatherers incapable of building permanent civilisations because one day the ground might decide to be the sky and turn into pus.

Hellebore

Gekiganger
05-07-2010, 02:17
I believe it's an attempt to try and make Warhammer different to other 28mm fantasy rulesets.

They're really pushing it with the 'moving, groaning mountains' and 'rains of skulls' in Phil Kelly's Youtube video.

I agree, I'd expect that kind of stuff in the chaos wastes / other heavily magic saturated areas, but all over is a stretch.

I think a better solution would have been to have a normal terrain piece on a roll of 2-6 and an 'interesting' one on a roll of a 1 or some such system. Might house rule that in eventually depending upon how things play out.

Ronin_eX
05-07-2010, 02:30
It's nice to have some good terrain ideas but I have never, ever used random terrain generation rules in any wargame because they tend to lead to disjointed battlefields without any real theme.

Normally we get one guy to set terrain up (usually someone not playing) in an interesting fashion and they apply some rules to a few places.

That the random gen rules come up with weird results doesn't bug me so much because I've never been happy with any random generation terrain method. I'm glad that it is a relatively unheard of practice outside of GW games myself.

So if you don't like the terrain rules then just skip them. People ignore scenario rules all the time in war games (or make up their own) so out of all the rules in the game it seems like the easiest to ignore while having almost no impact on the game.

I wouldn't read too much into it setting-wise either. Chances are the designers just wanted the default game as they imagined it to have a lot of interesting effects in play and went a little overboard. Personally I'm just glad WFB has terrain other than obstacles now, that the random gen table is too random is of little consequence as I would never have used it anyways.

Feefait
05-07-2010, 02:38
It's just going back to an older school feel. I like it. I miss the days of a mystical bog being thrown down by some fool in the middle of the table is maneuvering to get away from it. No sarcasm, I;m serious. It was stupid and annoying but it was fun and that's been missing from the game. i also miss my skaven with giant leeches. Really looking forward to 8.

grumbaki
05-07-2010, 03:18
I play in stores, so here is what I plan to do. Use the terrain effects, and think up my own reasons for them. Buildings that kill you? It is fortified by the enemy and the troops need to fight to hold it, or the troops are looting it and quit the battle. Woods killing you? Goblins, beastmen or bandits in there. Lakes killing you? It is the rainy season and there is bad flooding happening.

There we go, 'natural' reasons for dangerous terrain. I personally refuse to accept 'a wizard did it', even if the rulebook says so.

indytims
05-07-2010, 04:00
Does the terrain have to be magical all the time in the Warhammer world?

Nope!

You and your buddy you're about to play against can agree that the terrain does anything you want - maybe each time you or your opponent move a unit into the terrain, you have to take a shot of vodka in real life?

It's up to you. I know for the guys I play with, if the terrain rules end up being too wacky, we'll adjust it to suit us.

random600
05-07-2010, 05:00
I play in stores, so here is what I plan to do. Use the terrain effects, and think up my own reasons for them. Buildings that kill you? It is fortified by the enemy and the troops need to fight to hold it, or the troops are looting it and quit the battle. Woods killing you? Goblins, beastmen or bandits in there. Lakes killing you? It is the rainy season and there is bad flooding happening.

There we go, 'natural' reasons for dangerous terrain. I personally refuse to accept 'a wizard did it', even if the rulebook says so.

For a fluff perspective i like this idea.

From the game perspective i don't feel its has a huge impact on the game so you could ignore it if you wanted to. I personally love the random terrain generator and rules. I've had two battles with the new rules and both have been decently enjoyable (well one kinda sucked because it was a daemon magic heavy army). We had a forest that made units starting their movement phase in it stupid, a rive that gave a unit that was in it or moved through it poison, and a bog that if you started your movement phase in it you took d6 worth of i tests and if you failed one your unit took a wound. For one game we ended up with 6 houses, a forest, bog, settlement of order (one house, church of light, blazin barricade, and a holy bulwark), and a weirding well. All this in a pass fight, It looked real cool and offered many challenges for us as commanders.

Geep
05-07-2010, 09:23
I don't see the need (or logic) in every wood/ river/ etc. being weird and magical. Most of the time I'd agree with my opponent to make 1 or 2 things on the table weird, otherwise: Roll a D6- on a 5 or 6 roll on the table for that terrain type (so you may roll a 1 and still have it normal).

I am looking forward to making some themed terrain though- Sphinxes sure seem like an odd thing to be scattered about so commonly, but statues of Gork and Mork can take their place perfectly, right down to the challenge rule. Don't appease both gods well enough and the other'll give you a kickin'.

Roba-Fett
05-07-2010, 09:46
Here's my guess. Horde units is the way they wanted it to go. Horde units mean less room to move. Less room means less strict terrain, without movement impairing effects. GW suddenly panic that this is boring. AHA!

Yeah, doesn't sit all that well with me either. I like the thought of using unusual terrain, but not every game.

Commissar Vaughn
05-07-2010, 11:36
I dont like the new terrain rules, and if I ever play another game will quietly forget them...

Problem is that to get anywhere in life humans and their technology need some kind of consistency: if everything keeps changing unpredictably how on earth would you ever make a sword? every time you hit the raw iron with the hammer both it and the hammer turn into something else and periodically attempt to eat you.

Some trees going for a walk in deepest athel loren or rains of bloodskulldeaths in the wastes, fair enough, but if it happened everywhere humans would have been lost long ago due to a lack of landmarks to tell em how to get home....which would probably have gotten up and walked away in the night anyway....and theyd all have to carry iron umbrellas or be contsantly getting knocked unconscious (any idea how hard a skull hits at terminal velocity? And whats watering the plants? )

The world doesnt work without some kind of internal consistancy.

Oh and why are the normal humans unaffected by this? If the crops and the trees and lampposts can randomly walk around, attack things, fly away, change shape, talk, etc etc why not the humans too?


This sounds like the way a world trapped in the eye of terror might work, or the Realm of chaos itself, or that bit of the discworld where you tend to wake up a different species from the one you were when you went to sleep, but for a world that hasnt been abandoned it just doesnt work.

RichBlake
05-07-2010, 12:09
My main gripe with the rules is the number of crazy things that can happen on a single battlefield because of the number of terrain features. I think having fewer features, but forcing a bigger 'footprint' would have been the way to go.

Having say a maximum of 2 crazy things going on would be more realistic imo. They could have made it simpler by saying that all terrain features of the same type have the same effect when rolled for. (e.g. all forests become mushroom forests etc). Fluffwise this would show that the 'forest' on this battlefield is more than just a few trees, but it is actually the same forest covering 25% of the board etc.


It would make more sense if the first time you entered a Forest you rolled to see what type of forest all forests were, as you are in a particular area of the Fantasy world. Then again with true line of sight I think unless your board is covered in trees it's more accurate to bescribe the GW sets as a "patch of trees" rather than a forest.




This is one thing my group will house rule. Once we get a proper look at the book we'll make our rules into a pdf.

Best of luck to you. Never really been into house ruling over stuff myself, just to clear up ambiguity.


IMO the new terrain rules will be the first thing that the Indy GT's will get rid of.


Not so sure about that, the random forest effect rule is a very slight nerf on scouts, meaning they CAN start in a forest but it's possible it might turn out to be a bad decision.

willowdark
05-07-2010, 12:30
Although I generally try to avoid indulging in populous rhetoric like this, I would like to point out that the more complicated and involving the rules are, and the more they diverge from any precedent set by 6th or 7th ed, the more likely it is that each individual player actually goes out and buys they're own copy of the book.

They streamlined the movement rules to make them easier. I think they wanted to compensate for this by making the Terrain rules all-encompassing with a lot of depth to increase the 'need' factor in terms of each player owning the book.

I made it through a large portion of 7th without a core rulebook, and then only got by with the BfSP mini-book. I knew the game already well enough without it.

Not that I'm accusing GW of anything. I don't have a problem with 8th ed from a marketing point of view, since I think they tried hard to make a quality product, even though it includes pre-measuring as a rule. ;)

Grimstonefire
05-07-2010, 14:06
We've put together our pdf for feedback

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265167

Damocles8
05-07-2010, 14:13
I have an idea to roll a D6 on every piece of terrain, on a roll of 6 we'd roll on the magical terrain list (re-rolling mundane ones)

Odin
05-07-2010, 15:04
Sounds good, why don't you write up a few random terrain lists that does that then? You can even adapt it to your actual terrain collection then and make it really useful.


A very good idea, and something I think we will implement as a house rule.

One of the possibilities that comes up is Khemrian quicksand. That can go in our table for terrain when fighting battles in Khemri, but not in the Empire.

To start with I think we'll just roll a D6 for each piece of terrain, and on a roll of 1-3 then we'll roll on the crazy official table to see if the wood is made of floating trees or if the wall has grown legs and started attacking villagers.

Grimstonefire
05-07-2010, 15:55
I quite like that idea as well actually, I'm going to invent a terrain generator for fighting specifically in the dark lands I think.

Commissar Vaughn
05-07-2010, 18:55
There was one in the 6th ed rule book....


I always said it was the best edition.

willowdark
05-07-2010, 19:29
Every step they took in 7th to improve from 6th was overshadowed by the lack of scenarios and seige rules.

I know there were still scenarios and seige rules in the 6th book that you could use, but since they didn't change much in the core rules they could've made some improvements there while they were at it.

de Selby
05-07-2010, 19:53
I think it's actually a postitive change. Terrain was just a blank in the previous edition: the only effect on the game was that you had to remember not to get stuck in it. GW is also pushing the idea of the Olde World as a weird and wonderful place, so making terrain effects magical is killing two birds with one stone.

I agree that it's probably a little too magical for believability, but terrain is one of the things that has to be houseruled for practicality in many cases, so it's easy enough to tone down if you're unhappy. In the same way players often make a gentleman's agreement not to field armies made up of all the rarest and most powerful combinations available in the army books.

UberBeast
05-07-2010, 23:52
I think most of the living terrain is just supposed to represent rare pieces on the battlefield. There is a difference between ordinary woods and mysterious woods after all.

Grimstonefire
05-07-2010, 23:59
Statisically though the chances of rivers or forests being 'normal' is only 1 in 6. The normal stuff is rare, not the crazy stuff.

JDman
06-07-2010, 00:31
Statisically though the chances of rivers or forests being 'normal' is only 1 in 6. The normal stuff is rare, not the crazy stuff.

I think thats fine

UberBeast
06-07-2010, 00:34
Statisically though the chances of rivers or forests being 'normal' is only 1 in 6. The normal stuff is rare, not the crazy stuff.

No because only Mysterious :angel: forests and rivers need to be rolled on. Everything else remains just a normal version.

scarletsquig
06-07-2010, 02:19
I guess the skull rain is a good way to explain the RoB board.

After the weekly skull showers, the janitor of the local village gets his broom and sweeps them all into the skull pits before they start gibbering about twine and placenta.

Petey
06-07-2010, 03:02
They knew they wanted to sell more terrain, so in order for people to need to buy as much as possible it had to have multiple rules. Or something like that.

Another reason why (and I blame all the design team for this, Phil included), is because they have extended the area of warping from the cataclysm (when the gate collapsed) to cover ever single square inch of the warhammer world.

Perhaps it was always like this, but the fact that fluffwise this is a huge leap (imo) makes the terrain rules themselves stupid.

Considering that each soldier is supposed to represent 20, it means that the crazy terrain is really that close together in the warhammer world because of their proximity on our battlefields, which is completely insane.

I.e. if you imagine you were playing with 20x as many troops, the terrain features would mostly be much larger (to compensate), and yet they would all still be within the battlefield.

House rule it.

According to the first big red book, 3rd ed I think, it was 9 per base. They also state the ground scale is 1' = 10yards. If I remember correctly that is...

Still I agree with you. Also, did you get my response to that PM?

decker_cky
06-07-2010, 03:37
Statisically though the chances of rivers or forests being 'normal' is only 1 in 6. The normal stuff is rare, not the crazy stuff.

Well....the mushrooms and the poison aren't really all that out there. Nor is the glacial river and I think there was another normalish river. On hills, one of the 'special terrains' was just that it's a steep hill.

UberBeast
06-07-2010, 04:08
Many of the terrain results aren't nearly that "out there". The mysterious forest for instance has results that make a unit stupid(stubborn if goblins) and give them poisoned attacks but cause them to take a dangerous terrain test for moving through it. It isn't a 5/6 chance of unit dying as someone has claimed.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-07-2010, 06:31
The problem is more the implications about the SETTING, which for some of us is the only reason we actually PLAY warhammer.

I don't think there is any. The actual wargame rules have rarely been very indicative of the background. For instance looking at the wargame you would think that the most common soldier in the Empire was the elite swordsmen and that High Elf nobles had stopped going to war with the rest of the army.

The setting will still be defined by the writing about it, not by a randomly generated terrain chart and I really doubt it's meant as a way to alter the setting. It's something to put into the tabletop wargame, not something that features in the Warhammer setting.

HeroFox
06-07-2010, 06:43
I'll say it once and I'll say it again:

Random terrain is the worst thing in the book this edition. If they only took half that creativity and applied it in other areas of the game, it would of made this edition feel much more cinematic.

For example:
Give forests/terrain/buildings a D6 chart. Something like this:
1. Units inside cause fear.
2. Units that cross through it takes D6 S4 hits.
3. Units that are inside counts as being in hard cover.
4. Units inside move at half speed.
5. Units attempting to enter have to take a terror test.
6. blah blah blah

Instead, what they should of done, was given Warhammer a universal setting such as.. Time of Day or Weather conditions, or Winds of Magic on a D6.

1. Night battle, all shots have a -1 to hit modifier.
2. Winds of Magic are stirring, +1 to cast for all magic.
3. Winds are calm, -1 to cast for all magic.
4. Heavy fog, all units have to roll 2d6x3 to see the enemy..etc.
5. Heavy rain, all units are at -1 when charging or fleeing..etc.
6. .... blah blah blah

Just throwing quick ideas out of my head, but I think what I have kicks the teeth out of GW's current random terrain crap. What they have right now makes me want to house rule half of that crap out so we can get down to the battle and start rolling dice.

Thoras
06-07-2010, 06:57
1. Night battle, all shots have a -1 to hit modifier.
2. Winds of Magic are stirring, +1 to cast for all magic.
3. Winds are calm, -1 to cast for all magic.
4. Heavy fog, all units have to roll 2d6x3 to see the enemy..etc.
5. Heavy rain, all units are at -1 when charging or fleeing..etc.
6. .... blah blah blah

Just throwing quick ideas out of my head, but I think what I have kicks the teeth out of GW's current random terrain crap. What they have right now makes me want to house rule half of that crap out so we can get down to the battle and start rolling dice.

For starters, i love the weather idea, might try knocking up some rules for that just for fun. Very fluffy too.

As for everyone going on about terrain, well unless you're a too the letter man (or in a tournie) every rule is flexible, the terrain ones even more so.

Don't like the new terrain? Don't use it at all

Think too much of it ruins the game/is unfluffy, rule that you'll only have D3 or 1/2 pieces or something.

It's your game, tailor it how you like. Games workshop arn't going to send the police through your windows for not using it :)

wizbix
06-07-2010, 07:00
I'm just wondering what exactly is a normal hill and a normal forest? Warhammer isnt set in southern England with nicely formed rolling hills and neatly managed copses of trees scattered over the place. I'm quite looking forward to the new scenery rules myself and i'll be busy making a fair few pieces and I recon they'll be fun to make and play with.

Geep
06-07-2010, 07:16
Although I like the above weather idea, at least with terrain you can choose whether it affects you or not (you don't have to enter the forest or building).
A straight D6 which may limit line of sight or reduce shooting in other ways can be a real problem. This is what they had in the Albion Campaign- fun and all, but could completely stuff some armies. Personally, I'd see this as a worse way to go.