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PsympleJester
04-07-2010, 03:22
Ok so this is a mini rant about the leafblower list...
But this one is different, this is from a new players perspective.

I as a player am old school for my age but the difference being I have not played since I was 14...
For the last 5 years I have lived a happy Warhammer free life...
Then I move house, find all my old models and instantly fall back in love with the small figures that gave me and my brother hours of fun!

Now I have a girlfriend (of 3.5 years) and I know she too would LOVE to paint these figures (art student) so I decide to buy her a codex and a box set for her birthday, I set her up with a rule book and tell her to pick her favorite army and its hers.

She picks chaos and I decide to go with Imperial guard, she just LOVES the idea of slaaneshi/nurgle spacemarines and I am infactuated with the idea of Steel Legion.

So we both get a codex and I buy her a box set.... great...

A few months later she has built with some help from me a rather effective CSM army and I have built what I have now learnt to be a leafblower army!

Great...

What a terrible time to get into Warhammer 40k again, not only have I built an army that apparently is the bane of all 40k players in the entire world ever but I dont even get credit for it as unbenown to me it was already INFAMOUS for being the army of beary gits who enjoy making players squirm!

So now I have spent so much money on MANY chimeras to own an army NO ONE wants to play against, I dont get any credit for designing such an army because its so famous and my girlfriend thinks she is terrible at warhammer as she cannot beat my army.....

GREAT!!!!!

---------- End of Rant ----------

ehlijen
04-07-2010, 03:31
Beardy lists are 3 parts attitude and only one part the actual list.

If you don't want to play a beardy list, you're already mostly on the way to not doing so anymore. How about rearranging your list to use more men and less chimearas? Or simply lower the points level and leave them out?

Don't care about what the internet says. It says a lot of things. One of the things it says is 'leafblower' which, apart from being a superfluous rake replacement, doesn't acutally mean much at all.

cKerensky
04-07-2010, 04:25
Pretty much my sentiments. I got into IG because I wanted to play IG. I had done the Eldar thing, and now I wanted IG. Don't let anyone tell you anything else.

big squig
04-07-2010, 04:32
Well, almost every guard player inadvertently ended up building the leaf blower list, so you're not alone.

Second, It's a good army, but I don't think it's "that" tough.

AngryAngel
04-07-2010, 04:57
As said, just cut back on the transports if its not fun. While Steel Legion is a mech force, they'd have their foot sloggers too. Use what vehicles you have for aggressive manuver and use platoon blobs with a commissar for an anvil to hammer upon, everyone likes killing scores of guardsmen !!

PsympleJester
04-07-2010, 05:07
The problem is though, I dont think Steel legion would have that...
Not to mention I went full out fluff, poor men in tin boxes LOVE IT...

And also not to mention my army line is even more crazy tanks than the apparent leafblower IG army already is...
++++ ontop of that why would you not use chimeras you have spend Ģ20 each on...

My 1000 point army alone is 7 chimeras and 1 leman russ.... Convert that to 2500 and my army would be some crazy tank block of doom....
I already planned on making my 2000 pts army have 11 chimera and 4 leman russ.... its just abit crazy.... Makes me sad I cant use my men in boxes army :(.

No2Wookie
04-07-2010, 05:08
A quick and easy solution is to overupgrade your units when playing for fun. Give your chimeras extra armor, a heavy stubber, camo netting, whatever you can give them. Make sure all your sarges have power swords. Rack up those redundant upgrades!

AngryAngel
04-07-2010, 05:12
Why not use your expensive transports ? Because it is making your opponent unhappy ? Sometimes you need to take blows in army set up if you want to keep some opponents. It is afterall a game, both people should be having fun. If they are not, something needs to be done. I like my guard list too, however I'll alter it up for the sake of fun.

Firmlog
04-07-2010, 08:37
I've done a full steel legion infantry force with just leman russ's. worked fine. probably shouldn't have sold it off.

actually, in general guard armies run by experienced players of any type are going to be difficult for new players. Personally I don't think I've beaten a guard army or certainly not often, since second ed.

I imagine you will have a difficult time building a guard army list that won't be difficult to beat unless you let up on her. Try not taking all the powerful assault weapons, go with grenade launchers and missile launchers. Go light on troops, so they can be taken out easily and shoot at inappropriate targets for the weaponry... ie. str. 6 weapons at av 12 stuff. In the end I think the current chaos codex is slightly inferior to the new guard codex.

also, you could allow her chaos to bring demons from the demon codex as allies, like the inquisition can with guard. Not exactly legal, but a whole lot more characterful and may add some power.

xerxeshavelock
04-07-2010, 08:48
Use more terrain, maybe twice as much. Or try adding a piece each game until te battles are more even.

Bloodknight
04-07-2010, 10:55
I don't really get how the "Leafblower" got famous anyway or how anybody could take credit for it. If you're not playing a horde of footslogging Guardsmen, it's the obvious build since it does the same as every other mech army.

Commissar Davis
04-07-2010, 11:06
Build up her Anti-Tank, and get her to take more in the way of Defilers. Has she got Havok Launchers on those Rhinos? Those should mince your Chimeras.

Mech is not that great when you opponent starts racking up the AT, and MEQ can shoot a hell of a lot better than IG.

It may also do to guide her through a few games, and swap armies a few times.

daboarder
04-07-2010, 11:17
I don't really get how the "Leafblower" got famous anyway or how anybody could take credit for it. If you're not playing a horde of footslogging Guardsmen, it's the obvious build since it does the same as every other mech army.

It got famous because when darkwynn took it to ard boyz not one game was over an hour, thats a 2500 pt game in less than an hour. the phrase leafblower came from one of his opponents who said is was like have a leafblower blowing his models off the table. the only solace in the existance of leafblower is that it doesnt scale down as well, and standard 1500 pts its hard, very hard but not unberably cower in fear doom hard.

Eulenspiegel
04-07-2010, 11:27
The problem is though, I dont think Steel legion would have that...
Not to mention I went full out fluff, poor men in tin boxes LOVE IT...

And also not to mention my army line is even more crazy tanks than the apparent leafblower IG army already is...
++++ ontop of that why would you not use chimeras you have spend Ģ20 each on...

My 1000 point army alone is 7 chimeras and 1 leman russ.... Convert that to 2500 and my army would be some crazy tank block of doom....
I already planned on making my 2000 pts army have 11 chimera and 4 leman russ.... its just abit crazy.... Makes me sad I cant use my men in boxes army :(.
So, you refuse to tone down your army to give your new-to-the-game girlfriend an easier time because of ... fluff reasons? :eyebrows:

Leafblower IS rough, and 7 Chimerae in 1000 points IS hard to tackle for most armies, very hard. I donīt believe you played that many transports back when you started.

Thud
04-07-2010, 11:54
The problem isn't your Chimeras. It's playing at 1,000 points.

At that point level your girlfriend with her Chaos Space Marines just can't get the tools she need to deal with that kind of army. But don't worry, when you hit 2,000 points things even out quite a bit, and I'm sure that after fighting an uphill battle ak 1k points she'll have picked up the skills to teach you a thing or two about just how quickly an IG army can be taken apart.

susu.exp
04-07-2010, 12:22
I fall somewhat in the middle of the two fractions on leafblowers. Some restrict the term to the specific build of the ard boys list, some throw it around for all mech guard. For me what makes a leafblower is not simple the presence of chimareas, but I also donīt restrict it to a single list. A leafblower has:
All infantry in Chimerae.
At least two skimmers in fast attack and nothing but skimmers in fast attack.
At least two chimera chassis artillery pieces (including hydras) in heavy support and nothing but chimera chassis artillery pieces in heavy support.

If you have LRBTs in your list itīs not a leafblower.
If you have Sentinels or Hellhounds, itīs not a leafblower.

CSM have a lot of options for taking out Chims, Meltaguns aplenty, Oblits, Havocs, Preds, Vindis, Fists, Winged Princes, Krag grenades... a 3 strong unit of Termies with 2 Combi-melters, 1-2 fists and a heavy flamer is a 115-125 point unit that will work very well against that list. The combination of lots of chimeras with artillery that can pulverize a good chunk of any army on turn one and some "contest that objective at the end of the game" fast skimmers are what makes the LB nasty. If you are playing steel legion by the fluff, you wonīt put in air cavallery and that alone will take a lot of bite out of the list and if you play Russes rather than Manticores and Medusae it also makes the list less hard (you almost never get cover saves against the artillery and not needing LOS helps them as well - and with so many low AP and/or high strenght pie plates MEQs suffer and the expensive cult troops suffer even more).

Erwos
04-07-2010, 13:32
For me what makes a leafblower is not simple the presence of chimareas, but I also donīt restrict it to a single list. A leafblower has:
All infantry in Chimerae.
At least two skimmers in fast attack and nothing but skimmers in fast attack.
At least two chimera chassis artillery pieces (including hydras) in heavy support and nothing but chimera chassis artillery pieces in heavy support.

If you have LRBTs in your list itīs not a leafblower.
If you have Sentinels or Hellhounds, itīs not a leafblower.
This, excepting that I would add in the allied inquisitor and 2 mystics.

IMHO, Chaos' best counter against "mechanized, bombard from deployment zone" IG armies are outflanking Chosen with meltaguns in Rhinos. And, speaking of Rhinos, is she popping smoke at the end of her first turn? That's hugely important against this kind of army.

Grand Master Raziel
04-07-2010, 14:51
What's your girlfriend got? There's a lot of things in Codex: Chaos Space Marines that would be good for wrecking a Chimera-heavy list. Just off the top of my head: Obliterators, outflanking Chosen, Havocs with autocannons, DSing Raptors with meltaguns, etc, etc.

FabricatorGeneralMike
04-07-2010, 15:56
I don't really get how the "Leafblower" got famous anyway or how anybody could take credit for it. If you're not playing a horde of footslogging Guardsmen, it's the obvious build since it does the same as every other mech army.

I totally agree, I've been playing guard since RT days. We finally get a non-crap codex, and suddenly its the most abusive thing in the world if you take mech guard.

How long did we suffer with such crap as doctrines, anyone remember Warrior Weapons?? So we finally get a top teared codex and 'on the internet' anyways its the doom of 40k the most broken thing since the last SpaceMarine 'dex... of course YMMV ;)

Almost any codex can be abused if you really try at it, how many vendetta's do you have in your list? Do you ally with DH to get the two mystics? Do you have the elite =][= in there with the old Psy Hood ? Is your army all vets in chimeras with three melta guns? Do you use Abhumans?

I just got IA 8, and I love the Elysian's in it, I want to do a air-cav army, does this make it a 'leafblower'? While for the point cost its better to have Vendetta's then Vulture's, I love the look and feel of vultures. Does this make me stupid for not taking the 'most effective units for the point cost'?

I think the 'leafblower' is mostly 1/10th good list building, 3/4 awsome looking models and 7/3 internet hyperbowl.

Just remember 7 of the 5 voices in my head say im sane. ;)

PS I would kill for my GF to be into 40k take a shmuck list and over do it like it was said before, take all those grenades, Powerswords, and other junk that most 'competive' people don't bother with. Maybe you could let her ally with the Chaos Daemons dex, just for a more 'fluffy' army like it used to be...sighs...

Also scale your games up to 2000 points. If money is a problem do a army builder campaign with her. Make it so that each week or month you 'scale up' the games by however many points you want eg 250pts.It makes for alot of fun, and who doesn't love campaigns.

Make your own gameboard ( DO NOT BUY THE REALM OF BATTLE BOARDS they are crap and you can make something just as good for 1/50th the cost) if you don't know how just google making 40k game boards. Polystyerene is really easy to work with and its very forgiving. If you just need to have GW terrain, buy the imperial city, its a great deal, and you can make tons of buildings, and have heaps of stuff left over for conversions.


Just remember, have fun, you have what most of us would love to have, a GF/wife/ oldlady/ etc etc who plays with little toy army men....My gf just looks at me and smiles when I show her the stuff I have done with my little army men.

Mott
04-07-2010, 17:52
Buy your girlfriend more meltaguns\ reaper autocannons. Its cool that you got her into playing, my girl just thinks its silly.

Lord Damocles
04-07-2010, 17:58
internet hyperbowl
This. (And what Bloodknight said earlier).

The supposedly unstopable leafblower was/is really a fairly generic mechanised Guard list with some less than superb choices, played at a far larger than average points level, with a good deal of luck.

And that makes it so incredible, why, excatly?

Aliarzathanil
04-07-2010, 19:01
A lot of players want to play a Steel Legion army as all mechanized because this is the fluff for the Steel Legion. The following things are also fluff for the Steel Legion that get overlooked by players trying to justify their build:

-Steel Legion armies prefer grenade launchers and missile launchers (either for ease of use, manufacture, or the fact they fight orks so often).

-The Imperial Navy doesn't attach Valks to guard armies. The Imperium didn't have solid air superiority, and Valks would be risky to use.

-Steel Legion armies would not typically have abhumans, psykers, plasma armed vehicles or tanks with exposed drivers.

-Armageddon makes widespread use of ganger militia (could be represented as conscripts)

-As a mechanized infantry company, they would have junior officer command squads.

-the attrition rate is very high for Steel Legion armies. A full army of vets would be very rare in a multi-year warzone.

Russes, Bassies, and the like are attached to, but not strictly part of a Steel legion army.

Just some thoughts towards making a "fluffy" list. Try playing it as a pure mechanized infantry force without all the toys attached and its more fun for your opponent.

scar face
04-07-2010, 19:06
What is a leafblower list?

scar

Lord Damocles
04-07-2010, 19:09
What is a leafblower list?

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262968&highlight=leafblower
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257297&highlight=leafblower
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239654&highlight=leafblower

Vaktathi
04-07-2010, 20:28
-The Imperial Navy doesn't attach Valks to guard armies. They do in the case of airborne Regiments like Elysians, and they are often around providing close air support for other forces.


The Imperium didn't have solid air superiority, and Valks would be risky to use. This all depends on the particular warzone and opponent, many times the Imperium will have complete air supremacy, sometimes they will context skies, other times not.

Remember, there are probably more airborne IG regiments than Space Marine chapters, given that the IG outnumber such mighty heroes by millions to one.

Some warzones may have very little IN presence, others may be swarming with IN aircraft.

Aliarzathanil
04-07-2010, 20:40
I was referring to the Armageddon Steel Legion specifically. As Elysians rely on the IN to move from warzone to warzone (as do all other guard units) is doesn't much matter if they are "attached" or not. The Steel Legion fights on their own planet and wouldn't utilize Valks excepting stormtroopers which aren't actually part of the company in any case.

Aliarzathanil
04-07-2010, 20:46
Also, it's my interpretation, but I would assume that most guard airborne units deploy using craft much larger than the valk for the sake of efficiency.

Bloodknight
04-07-2010, 20:52
The Steel Legion fights on their own planet

You're confusing the Steel Legion with the Armageddon PDF. The Steel Legion is an Imperial Guard regiment, they fight wherever the Emperor sends them - and that's not always Armageddon.

Worsle
04-07-2010, 21:36
A lot of players want to play a Steel Legion army as all mechanized because this is the fluff for the Steel Legion. The following things are also fluff for the Steel Legion that get overlooked by players trying to justify their build

Just some thoughts towards making a "fluffy" list. Try playing it as a pure mechanized infantry force without all the toys attached and its more fun for your opponent.

Here is the thing, how many regements of the steal legion are there? Are you telling me none of them will be fielding anything different? Really using fluff like that to straight jacket peoples lists just shows a limited imagination. Stuff like that annoys me, sure they might be good general guide lines but that is all they are. People don't have to "justify" their choices as there is more than enough free room in the fluff to do jjust about anything.

Helicon_One
04-07-2010, 21:58
All I ask is that you stop calling it 'leafblower' before I start my own ranting again.

Setesh
04-07-2010, 22:13
girlfriends always go for slaanesh

TheLaughingGod
04-07-2010, 22:26
If I hear "Leafblower" one more time, I'm gonna hurl chunks. What a stupid name..

Eulenspiegel
04-07-2010, 22:35
Itīs a nickname for a particular build. It achieves what a should: be recognizeable and exclusive.
Get over it.

Aliarzathanil
04-07-2010, 22:43
Actually, as their home planet is a vital manufacturing planet, the Steel Legion aren't sent off world as often as other regiments. When a planet is a in a war of annihilation, the difference
between a fighting PDF and guard wouldn't be as clear cut as all forces would be under the command of the highest ranking Imperial commander.

Abhumans are typically native to Armageddon, so ogryns would be rare. Guard units don't have artillery or tanks attached with the exception of the odd demolisher.

The number of Steel Legion regiments active planet side can be found in Codex Armageddon.

TheLaughingGod
04-07-2010, 22:43
Itīs a nickname for a particular build. It achieves what a should: be recognizeable and exclusive.
Get over it.

It's the name of Darkwynn's specific army in 'Ard Boyz. Now, it's anything BUT recognizeable and exclusive. It's become a synonym for Mech Guard. Which already existed, and already HAS a name. MECH GUARD.

Grimbad
04-07-2010, 22:47
http://web.archive.org/web/20010421113554/www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/imp_forces.html
See if there's any other regiments you like here. Give your steel legion some allies. Play these allies totally in-character to comedic extremes. Why not a footslogging platoon of Pyran Dragoons with a penchant for idiotic arrogance and no self-preservation? An Ork Hunters veteran squad who would rather kill the commissar and run for it than shoot the enemy? Savlar Chem-Dogs who double back to loot corpses instead of fighting their hardest? A Krourk Ogryn Auxilia who don't know how to use their guns and are afraid of chimeras?

Bloodknight
04-07-2010, 22:57
The number of Steel Legion regiments active planet side can be found in Codex Armageddon

Yes, 25 SL regiments in the 3rd Armageddon war. Pyran Dragoons and Cadians together also had 25 regiments on Armageddon.

The SL tithe regiments won't sit there and twiddle their thumbs all the time when there's not a war for Armageddon ;)


Abhumans are typically native to Armageddon, so ogryns would be rare

Not in a tithe regiment. It even says so in Codex:Armageddon.


Guard units don't have artillery or tanks attached with the exception of the odd demolisher.

40K isn't in 2nd edition anymore.
That's why a regiment (infantry or mech) usually brings an artillery or tank regiment from the same planet to the fight ;).




edit: my post took too long...dug up my Armageddon codex and got ninja'd. Slowly. ;)

Aliarzathanil
04-07-2010, 23:07
The tanks and artillery are still separate (Apocalypse as a source). Its still in the background as a way for guard forces to need too rely on other Imperial elements. I'm aware that it's not second edition anymore. Thanks for the smiley so I know you're not being condescending.

Aliarzathanil
04-07-2010, 23:08
Tithes are suspended when a planet is a warzone.

Bloodknight
04-07-2010, 23:13
Its still in the background as a way for guard forces to need too rely on other Imperial elements.

At least one thing the Imperium learned from the Heresy. :)


Thanks for the smiley so I know you're not being condescending.

I never am - or at least I try not to be. It's not one of my character traits. (If it seems that I'm not polite I usually missed some nuance - I'm not a native speaker). :)

Aliarzathanil
04-07-2010, 23:54
No worries.