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Yehoshua
04-07-2010, 03:27
Hey guys, 8th ed allows characters to form units together, and with the new point allowances, we may see some pretty crazy units. I wanted to see if anyone else had some good ideas - the Lizardmen guys have talked about Scar-Vet units, which are pretty cool.

I had the idea, however, of Big-Boss Gigantic Spider Cavalry. Because the Giant Spiders are Monstrous Beasts according to the 8th ed rulebook, when ridden they become Monstrous Cavalry, which use the highest wounds characteristic of both profiles.

You can get 4 for 300 points (with no items added), and each Boss gets 3! wounds. That's 24 attacks, and the unit can be tweaked to have an answer for almost any situation.

ftayl5
04-07-2010, 05:53
:eek:
I haven't seen this rule, but all I have to say is ouch.

EDIT: and Tomb Prince/King Chariot units :)

Ramius4
04-07-2010, 06:02
With no Look out Sir! ? No thanks... Anything character that's cheap enough to get 4 or 5 into a unit on their own probably isn't going to last very long.

Darwin_green
04-07-2010, 06:23
wow, that's like in 5th ed where wights and wraiths were actual character units.

but neat idea.

Tenken
04-07-2010, 07:41
How about a paladin on Pegasus unit? Costly, but maneuverable, good save, lots of attacks, good strength. Might be fun for ***** and giggles once.

KHolbourn
04-07-2010, 08:01
Well its only 390 points for a unit of 5 Empire captains with 1+ save, lances and warhorses.

Expensive but still cheap enough to try once or twice...

Darwin_green
04-07-2010, 08:24
i think a scary idea is to have all of them attached to a regular unit for the rank bonus.

Stonewyrm
04-07-2010, 09:48
There is no reason to have 5 in a unit, that's just a preconception. There is also no reason to have them 5 wide, your not going to get ranks with a char unit.

Let's say I have a unit of 2 Paladins, a BsB Pally and a Damsel (Brets). I could go 2x2 and put the normal Paladins up front with their 2+ AS (or 1+ re-rollable with items). The BsB and the Damsel would be "forced" into the second rank and thus still able to use their special abilities. There is no rule forcing me to go 4 wide with them. My BsB and Damsel would be safe (the first round anyway) but still give the +CR and such.

Granted against shooting it would still be randomised, cannons can go through ranks, bolt throwers too but wouldn't if they fail to wound the 1st row. Against templates you can hope that they only do 1 wound.

I for example will be using a "Wing" of Paladins on Pegasus (2). I had 1-2 in my list already and now they will just fly together. Against tougher targets they attack as a unit and against lighter targets they split off and join together after.

This new rule is very cool but you need to get creative with it, don't start thinking unit = 5+.

Your pale companion
04-07-2010, 10:04
Well its only 390 points for a unit of 5 Empire captains with 1+ save, lances and warhorses.

Expensive but still cheap enough to try once or twice...
Basicly chaos knights with 2 wounds and no fear...

Nocculum
04-07-2010, 10:48
The lack of fear can easily be rectified.

I'd go with Goblin Bosses personally, 35 points base a model and full gear on each and you're still laughing all the way to running off the field to a panic test, oooops.

Oberon
04-07-2010, 11:30
Heroes that are or ride on a monster/chariot cannot join units. Heroes can join units/heroes that are infantry/monstrous infantry/-cavalry/cavalry/beast or monstrous beasts. There's no joining to flyers, monsters, chariots of swarms. There seems to be no rule saying you can't join a unit if you can fly yourself.
Pegasus paladins could not join each other though, as the other paladins are flyers themselves...

Stonewyrm
04-07-2010, 14:44
So your telling me that a Paladin on Pegasus can join a unit of Grail Knights in Lance formation but CAN'T join themselves or a unit of Pegasus Knights?

So after my 55pt Pegs lose 360' sight, now have to rank up in the retarded skirmisher formation, gain fast cav rules but not the new ranks for fast cav because they are still skirmishers that would at least allowed them to break ranks.......after all that, they write a rule like above?

Monsterous Cavalry, Flying Cavalry, Skirmishers, Fast Cavalry, Knight's Vow. Normally a long list of special rules is a good thing but with with half of them conflicting the other half this is just silly.

My only hope now is for a decent errata

immortal git
04-07-2010, 15:02
herald of khorne, jugger, fun!

Oberon
04-07-2010, 16:59
So your telling me that a Paladin on Pegasus can join a unit of Grail Knights in Lance formation but CAN'T join themselves or a unit of Pegasus Knights?

So after my 55pt Pegs lose 360' sight, now have to rank up in the retarded skirmisher formation, gain fast cav rules but not the new ranks for fast cav because they are still skirmishers that would at least allowed them to break ranks.......after all that, they write a rule like above?

Monsterous Cavalry, Flying Cavalry, Skirmishers, Fast Cavalry, Knight's Vow. Normally a long list of special rules is a good thing but with with half of them conflicting the other half this is just silly.

My only hope now is for a decent errata
Grail knights are of a different unit type than a pegasus paladin, so of course not.

lord opium
04-07-2010, 18:28
What about hero infantry? gnoblar honchos are only 20pts ;)

inq.serge
04-07-2010, 18:56
I always wanted a unit of Boobsnake cavalry.

Is it possible to have 4 heroes (one of them BSB) and 1 lord in as the unit?

Stonewyrm
04-07-2010, 19:08
Grail knights are of a different unit type than a pegasus paladin, so of course not.


Why not? I didn't say they got LoSir I just said they could join acording to the rules. Otherwise you couldn't put a mounted char in infantry either.

Oberon
04-07-2010, 19:53
Good point, and after reviewing the character rules, apparently your conclusion was almost correct. Pegasus paladin cannot join pegasus knights as they can fly, but he can join grail knights. He won't be able to fit into lance formation though, as I think he has 40mm base? So he'll be the fourth man on front, creating a weid looking formation that already had its own rules. The rule for not joining units with a flying mount seems to be entirely missing.

Stonewyrm
04-07-2010, 22:13
Yeah that is what I meant, what his is allowed to do is silly and isn't rational. Like trying to put a Paladin on a 40x40 base in the Lance formation, in a unit of infantry or with mounted yeomen.

On the other hand the logical place to put him is with others that have the same rules, the same base size and the same catagory. Like in a unit of Peg Knights and/or with another Paladin on Pegasus. But that is flat out banned.

I guess I can understand the ban on chars in flying units. It's probably to prevent abuse like some sick winged vampire hiding in fellbats (or whatever the better of the two VC flyers are called) or some Supreme Sorceress flying around with harpies. Teradon riders were probably exemted because they don't hit hard.

I guess im just a bit sad that I feel my favorite model (Pegasus w/rider) appear to have been nerfed. Against armies without shooting they wrecked havoc but were never overpowered considering their high cost. Against armies with shooting I had a hard time trying to keep them alive (my main opponent is a very good HE/Skaven player) even in 7th.

In 8th with Tlos, shoot through forest, shoot in 2+ ranks, better warmachines ect. I can't see a reliable way to keep them alive beyond the 2nd or 3rd round. Now that they only have 90' Los and flee using ground movement manouvering with them will become even more difficult.

Rochr
04-07-2010, 22:28
Three Exalted Heroes of Khorne on Juggernauts. Equip them with Flails for 15 Strength 7 attacks and then another 9 attacks at strength 5 from the Juggers. Initiative 6 aswell. 1+ armour save and ward save against magic.

Expensive? Yea.
Worth it? Probably not.
Fun? hell yea.

Tae
04-07-2010, 22:35
A unit of 20 Skaven Engineers for a mere 300 points.

Have fun randomising your hits!

Ramius4
04-07-2010, 22:55
On the other hand the logical place to put him is with others that have the same rules, the same base size and the same catagory. Like in a unit of Peg Knights and/or with another Paladin on Pegasus. But that is flat out banned.

Flyers have never been able to join any units. It's strange that they're allowed to all of a sudden.

I guess I can understand the ban on chars in flying units. It's probably to prevent abuse like some sick winged vampire hiding in fellbats (or whatever the better of the two VC flyers are called) or some Supreme Sorceress flying around with harpies. Teradon riders were probably exemted because they don't hit hard.

My friend and I tried a few games (bretonnians vs. wood elves) where we tested it out. It quickly got rediculous, and we were only allowing pegasi and great eagles to do this, no hippogriffs or dragons. Banner of the Lady on a flying battle standard in a unit where he couldn't be picked out was over the top. And believe it or not the wood elves were able to create an even more devastating death star.

I guess im just a bit sad that I feel my favorite model (Pegasus w/rider) appear to have been nerfed. Against armies without shooting they wrecked havoc but were never overpowered considering their high cost. Against armies with shooting I had a hard time trying to keep them alive (my main opponent is a very good HE/Skaven player) even in 7th.

there's this thing called cover you see... :p

In 8th with Tlos, shoot through forest, shoot in 2+ ranks, better warmachines ect. I can't see a reliable way to keep them alive beyond the 2nd or 3rd round. Now that they only have 90' Los and flee using ground movement manouvering with them will become even more difficult.

I hate to break it to you, but characters on mounts of any kind only ever had a 90' LOS. The 360' degree LOS was only ever used by units of skirmishers, single models on foot and flying cavalry.

Rochr
05-07-2010, 01:24
I hate to break it to you, but characters on mounts of any kind only ever had a 90' LOS. The 360' degree LOS was only ever used by units of skirmishers, single models on foot and flying cavalry.

Fast Cavalry had 360 degree LOS to shoot didn't they?

sulla
05-07-2010, 04:31
The lack of fear can easily be rectified.

I'd go with Goblin Bosses personally, 35 points base a model and full gear on each and you're still laughing all the way to running off the field to a panic test, oooops.The point about joining units still stands though... those 5 guys would be a lot better with 20 or so goblins, a standard and a netter helping them out.

Stonewyrm
05-07-2010, 05:12
I hate to break it to you, but characters on mounts of any kind only ever had a 90' LOS. The 360' degree LOS was only ever used by units of skirmishers, single models on foot and flying cavalry.

Sorry I should have been more specific, the model is the same for both the unit and the hero but my comments were about the unit.


Banner of the Lady on a flying battle standard in a unit where he couldn't be picked out was over the top.

Yes that might seem to be over the top but you can put him in a unit of Knights and he can't be picked out either. He is flying but therfore only has a 4+ AS.


Flyers have never been able to join any units. It's strange that they're allowed to all of a sudden.

I didn't make the rules im just trying to apply them to my favorite armies and units. If it comes across as a whine, sorry. It just seems to me that Pegesus Knights (the unit) got quite nerfed by the new rules. In itself this is ok, I know some get better some get worse, that's life.

But what annoys me is that the other new rules that would slightly compensate for the lost abilities somehow don't apply to this specific unit.

They got fast cav ok, why would I want to flee with a unit that cost 55pts per model and lose their ward save when they do? The only other good thing about fast cav that would be useful for PK is the ability to get ranks and therefore also break them if I have 6+ models (at above pt cost) BUT they are still skirmishers so they can't get ranks.

Flyers are allowed to join units but mine can't join the unit that makes the most sense. Based purely on what looks good and makes sense I would like to put my Paladins on Pegasus with other Pegasi and not in a unit of Bowmen or something.

P.S I never have ran RAF, the most I have ever used is 4 PK + 1 Pally on Peg

Ramius4
05-07-2010, 05:59
Flyers are allowed to join units but mine can't join the unit that makes the most sense. Based purely on what looks good and makes sense I would like to put my Paladins on Pegasus with other Pegasi and not in a unit of Bowmen or something.

P.S I never have ran RAF, the most I have ever used is 4 PK + 1 Pally on Peg

And it's not the only army this happens to. Wood Elves have the same thing. Until the last Lizardmen book they couldn't either. I have been saying for years that I felt it was something the game designers could certainly have playtested and eliminated any big imbalances with it. Obviously they don't feel the same way, or don't want to put in the effort. No biggie.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say above however. I've never felt put out rules-wise that flyers couldn't join units, but yes, it never made sense. It's purely a game balance decision (which is a good thing).

As a whole, the flying cav haven't lost anything but a wider LOS. You neglect to mention what they do gain:

They can now see over most troops using TLoS. Enabling more charges against troops you wouldn't have been able to see before.

They also gained Stomp attacks.

They can also get a +1 combat res for just 1 model hitting a flank or rear.

If you want to buy a larger unit now, you can actually get the ones in the back 'rank' to fight in combat with their full attacks (HUGE!!!)

So before you go off half-cocked, you may want to think a bit more about what it is you've gained with the new rules.

PS. I play a Bretonnian army too. I just don't want you to think I'm picking on you for ranting about your army;)

McBaine
05-07-2010, 06:20
Banner of the Lady on a flying battle standard

That wouldn't be possible as the banner of the Lady states "model on foot or bretonnian warhorse only". So no rank negating pegasus bsb... sadly...

but a unit of cheap paladins... I might try that just for fun...

Scythe
05-07-2010, 07:12
wow, that's like in 5th ed where wights and wraiths were actual character units.

but neat idea.

Hmm, I can field Wight Lord units again... interesting. A Wight Lord on steed with lance is about 90 pts. It doesn't hit quite as hard as a Blood Knight, but still has 3 S6 attacks. More importantly, it is vastly more durable with T5, W3 and can ignore terrain and has killing blow.

Still too expensive to be really viable (and it kills hero allowance), but fun nontheless.

immortal git
05-07-2010, 15:31
rochr, ide question the worth it side of them, theyd slap a unit of infantry, they hit back, oh no one up save.

Stonewyrm
05-07-2010, 17:21
As a whole, the flying cav haven't lost anything but a wider LOS. You neglect to mention what they do gain:

They can now see over most troops using TLoS. Enabling more charges against troops you wouldn't have been able to see before.
This goes both ways, anything I can see (Warmachines ect.) can see me too. But yes there are a couple of good tricks like "hiding" behind a unit of cav for +2 cover and then charging over them. If you use something like a Tzeentch Disk which is Cav you get +2 hard cover and 4+ LoSir.
They also gained Stomp attacks.
Sorry that is a boost that I neglected. 1 S4 attack at end of combat per model.
They can also get a +1 combat res for just 1 model hitting a flank or rear.
+1 for flank and +2 for rear if im not mistaken but even though everyone can do that Pegs are the best at it other than monsters/chars.
If you want to buy a larger unit now, you can actually get the ones in the back 'rank' to fight in combat with their full attacks (HUGE!!!)
This is where I think you are wrong, it would be huge IF it was true. I don't have the book yet but am under the understanding that Cavalry only get the rider's attack(s) from the back row so 1 S5 attack per 55pts. I actually thought long and hard about using a large unit but without getting ranks or breaking ranks it doesn't seem to be worth it.
So before you go off half-cocked, you may want to think a bit more about what it is you've gained with the new rules.
Sorry if I came across like that, I was actually trying to be civil about it. I am generally optimistic about 8th ed but I guess Pegasi are one of the few things that get to me emotionally.
PS. I play a Bretonnian army too. I just don't want you to think I'm picking on you for ranting about your army;)

I would like to apologise to everyone for getting off track, my first couple of posts were about the original topic of Hero Cavalry but I drifted off to an issue with units. I guess I saw both the Heros and the unit as having somewhat "funny" rules. I still think it's silly that 2 Pallies on Pegs could seperatly join a Damsel on foot or a Knight on a Horse but not join each other.

Stonewyrm

Edit: I must admit I am biased about Pegs abilities. My weekly opponent is a very good tourny player (Top 5 every time) and he throws almost everything he can at my Pegasi (both unit and Hero). My Pegs get tons of S4 AP attacks thrown at them if I peek too far out of cover (leaves me with 5+ 6++ saves). The only other defence is to get into CC as soon as posible. Losing 360' hurts me more (just an opinion) than the new rules give me. The above mentioned new formation rules, cover and Tlos issues don't help either.

stashman
06-07-2010, 14:40
Crazy Gobbo Cavalry 381 pts

8 Wolfriders, Musician, Banner, Spear, Shield
3 Big Boss, Spear, Shield
1 Warboss, Spear, Shield

6 wide = 13 S5, 8 S4, 6 S3 attacks