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Chris_Tzeentch
04-07-2010, 08:19
Welcome to the Tactica Daemons of Chaos for 8th Edition Warhammer.

In 7th Edition, Daemons were the most powerful list in Warhammer. When the 8th Edition rumours started circulating, it was suggested that Daemons were going to get badly beaten by the Nerf bat.

Has this actually happened? The answer for me is a definite No. There is no doubt aspects of running a daemon list have been reduced in effectiveness, but it is still a good list.

Feel free to share your experiences here.

Chris_Tzeentch
04-07-2010, 13:41
I have noticed that Plaguebearers have lost a lot in terms of resilience as a result of being either to take the ward save or the regeneration save.

immortal git
04-07-2010, 15:06
bloodletters however have doubled in greatness, back rank attacks, thats a lot of strength five KBs.

Plaugebearers have dropped greatly, if they cant last they cant win to be fair, they have poor ws and their only thrength four

Daemonettes - oh yes! great initiative and with a herald they have asf too so they get rerolls to hit

Horrors - yeah they seem to be better, now if the winds of magic got well they can throw three - four dice at flickering fire.

Kerill
04-07-2010, 16:37
Hounds should also be a bit worse now with step up and support attacks facing a mere 5+ ward to get wounds back for CR. Khorne heralds on juggers now get no LOS unless they are near a sizable unit of crushers. Thirsters may actually be better, other greater daemons are a bit toned down at 2000/2250 since they can't be fully tooled.

Flamers are now better with march and shoot. Not that they needed a boost.

Rare slots are a lot more free now and a pair of single fiends are good for war machine hunting and wizard hunting without taking up rare slots.
- all theoryhammer btw...

SevenSins
04-07-2010, 18:12
So any thoughts on what, if any, units will you take in larger blocks (as opposed to 7th) 6x4 bloodletters/demonettes? T3 will still make these loose a fair bit to shooting.

ranked fiends? 3x3 with buckets of attacks and even a few stomps.

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 19:37
Here's what I think is still good:

Heralds of everyone minus Nurgle
All the Great Daemons minus Nurgle, with Khorne and Slannesh in front
Skulltaker, Masque, Blue Scribes
Bloodletters are great, Daemonettes are great, Horrors..eh, Nurgle Last
Fiends are up there, so are Flamers, Steeds of Slannesh is just 'ok' and Bloodcrushers are better.
Flesh Hounds now have a 2+ save vs magical.. which is quite fantastic.

Zaustus
04-07-2010, 20:05
Here are my thoughts on the relative value of daemon units in 8th. The standard caveats apply: I could easily be wrong about any of them, and they're just my opinions as of right now.

Bloodletters and Daemonettes benefit from the fighting in ranks, but they'll have to watch out against large units. There, the ranks + casualties removed from the back will allow the enemy far more return attacks than they used to receive. Since the daemons are only t3 with a 5+ save, lots of attacks can hurt you.
VERDICT: Use them, but don't put them up against hordes.

Plaguebearers take a big hit in this edition. They've lost their one attractive feature: the double save. Now there's very little reason I see to take them, short of a mono-Nurgle themed list.
VERDICT: These guys need to hit the showers. They'll be sitting this edition out.

Horrors no longer generate stupid power dice for you, but they're still useful. Large units will be decent wizards that don't worry much about miscasts, and now will be effective tarpits with the new Steadfast rule. Keep them 5-wide and they should last a while.
VERDICT: Still one of the most effective core choices in the game.

Furies have Ld2. That means that you'll have to keep them near your general if you ever want them to flying march. That's a pretty big drawback for a unit that's intended to hunt skirmishers and warmachines.
VERDICT: Don't use these guys... not that you did anyway.

Flesh Hounds still do a lot of damage, but you'll have to be more careful with them now. They make good warmachine hunters, and they'll be useful as wound-causing flankers, possibly even in ranks. Because they'll get to fight in 2 ranks, that becomes a more attractive proposition than before.
VERDICT: Still useful, but not as abusive as they were in 7th.

Screamers don't change much. They'll have to pass Ld tests now to fly-march, but their leadership score isn't too bad. Slashing attacks are nice, though as always a prepared opponent won't leave their characters out in the open. They're pretty handy for monster hunting. They're very fragile against low-strength shooting, though, and that got a boost in 8th.
VERDICT: It's hard to recommend these expensive guys when they'll get shot down by simple arrows so easily. The slashing attacks are super good when they work, though.

Nurglings stuffer from the same problems other skirmishers face. The loss of 360° line of sight hurts them. They make decent harassers and marchblockers, but with marchblocking nerfed I think their role is largely passé.
VERDICT: Not particularly effective. I'd spend the points elsewhere.

Seekers of Slaanesh are still really fast, and now get a 12" pre-game move. That might be enough to make them useful as hunters of warmachines and soft targets. Their inability to flee isn't as important now, since redirection is devalued in 8th edition.
VERDICT: Could be useful; consider taking a unit.

Bloodcrushers don't gain much from 8th. They're too expensive to take more than a few, and their offensive output isn't enough to get through steadfast units. They're definitely cool, at least, and getting new plastics soon.
VERDICT: If you like them, take a small unit joined by a Herald and use them to hit flanks.

Flamers lose their 360° line of sight, but more than make up for it by gaining the ability to march and shoot. They still pump out an ungodly number of good-strength shots at a high ballistic skill.
VERDICT: Still an absurdly powerful unit.

Beasts of Nurgle suffer from the same problem as Plaguebearers, losing a good part of their previously impressive survivability. They'll still be a pretty good tarpit, just not as good as before.
VERDICT: Still useful, despite being nerfed.

Fiends of Slaanesh seem to suffer at first glance, since they don't have much in the way of survivability. What I don't know is how they're classified in the new book. If they count as monstrous infantry, then they're actually not bad. Still, the second rank would only get 3/4 of their attacks, which seems like a waste. Still, stomp attacks may close that gap.
VERDICT: These guys seem pretty decent, and much more survivable hunter-killers than Seekers, and stronger attacks too.

Heralds are still strong, with Tzeentch Heralds probably the best. Their access to Master of Sorcery at a bargain-basement price is incredible, considering the power of the new BRB lores. Being able to take multiple Spell Breakers is another huge advantage for the servants of change, and for Daemons in general.
VERDICT: Khorne and Slaanesh heralds are still good leading units of their kin. Nurgle heralds are pretty bad now. Tzeentch heralds are super good; expect to see a lot of them.

The Bloodthirster is unique among the greater daemons in that you can still afford him fully tooled up at 2250+. Thunderstomp increases his killing power, though he can't just break ranked units by himself any more.
VERDICT: Still an unparalleled killer, but you'll need to support him now.

The Lord of Change is an extremely powerful wizard, especially with Master of Sorcery. The only problem is that his cost makes him impossible to tool up in smaller games. You really need to play 2750+ to make full use of him, while Kairos exactly fills the lord cap at 2500.
VERDICT: Fantastic in big games, though people will always be tempted to use Kairos instead. The Lord of Change is tougher and capable in melee though, so don't rule him out.

The Great Unclean One doesn't come standard with regeneration, so he doesn't suffer as much as his underlings do. Still, in 7th he was the least popular greater daemon because of his slow speed. Trappings of Nurgle isn't very exciting any more, but he still has good toughness and a crazy number of wounds. You won't be able to make a L4 caster out of him except in very big games.
VERDICT: Mostly for Nurgle theme lists. In terms of pure power, the other 3 greater daemons are better.

The Keeper of Secrets gets a fair bit deadlier with virtual perma-hatred (yay for I10) and S6 thunderstomps. It's harder to leadership-bomb now without the terror bubble, and the BSB allowing re-rolls of everything does hurt, but Siren Song + Great Icon of Despair is still a very mean combo. Again, you can't kit him out for big magic in outside of big games.
VERDICT: Super killy and access to some nasty gifts means this guy will still be worth taking. Expect to see him combined with Heralds of Tzeentch to make up for his reduced casting power in 8th.

Daemon Princes still suck. That's the verdict on them.

Skip
04-07-2010, 21:26
Khorne heralds are nice to tool up big blocks of bloodletters, Tzeentch heralds to get some nice spells with master of sorcery and the 4++ for the 40 horrors (the lvl4 wizzard to block enemy magic).

The blue scribes are your powerdice source :D
The 2W6 are too unpredictable

Flamers for some supporting firepower and slaanesh beasts for flank attacks. the rest is cosmetics ;)

fubukii
04-07-2010, 23:36
One of the Huge weaknesses of the daemonic Infantry (Daemonettes/Letters) can easily be fixed using some augment spells from either LIFE/BEASTS or some hexes to reduce enemy str. We get access to whatever spells we want with kairos or any MOS spell caster and we should take advantage of this to boost our survivabilty as our troops offensive power is very impressive

alphamale
05-07-2010, 10:16
Keeper of Secrets ASF + I10 = D6 thunderstomp(normally ASL) at I10

I saw someone post this I believe this is correct as the ASF cancels out the ASL. Something to think about.

immortal git
05-07-2010, 15:29
does seem that the popularity of greater daemons is gonna shift to
keeper
thirster
Bigbird
unclean

Chris_Tzeentch
05-07-2010, 16:13
Here as an 8th Edition 2250 list I have been doing well with.
Fiends are a must.


I have tried a unit of 6 in a 3 by 2 block, and they were excellent. I am looking forward to using these again.

Kalandros
05-07-2010, 16:21
I might use 6 fiends at 3000+ pts, but I prefer 2 small units of fiends, either 1 fiend or 2 fiends, as WM hunters or CR generators.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265182
Here's a list I made for 2k points.

Zaustus
05-07-2010, 19:47
It's the same as 2d6. I'm guessing Skip is a German-speaker, because in German "dice" translates to "Würfel."

Skip
05-07-2010, 20:09
It's the same as 2d6. I'm guessing Skip is a German-speaker, because in German "dice" translates to "Würfel."

Damn, you're right - sry :D

Any ideas about bloodletter squad sizes? How many models and how many ranks does everyone prefer in future games?

fubukii
05-07-2010, 22:15
im gonna assume 24/30 in ranks of 6 same with daemonettes.

Daemonic infantry are a little to pricey to do horde with, but hey with a musician you could always reform to get eextra attacks if needed.

w3rm
05-07-2010, 23:55
Stupid 8th trying to make me pick up daemons again! Are they still gonna be the cheesmonsters they were in 7? I was thinking like

Herald of Khorne- 190
Armour of Khorne, Juggernaut, Firestorm Blade

Herald of Khorne- 190
Armour of Khorne, BSB, Banner of Sundering

Herald of Khorne- 115
Armour of Khorne

31 Bloodletters-402
Full Command

23 Bloodletters-306
Full Command

23 Bloodletters- 306
Full Command

10 Flesh Hounds- 350

10 Flesh Hounds- 350

3 Blood Crushers- 285
Full Command, Skull Totem

Charachters-19.8%
Core- 40.56%
Special-30%
Rare-11.4%

Or is 20 Flesh hounds a little much for 1 army. its 2500 btw

fubukii
06-07-2010, 00:07
id run more hounds TBH at least 12 man units.

Simo429
06-07-2010, 20:52
Gonna go with Demons when picking up fantasy for the first time any tips from people one what to pick up from the store first

Seems nurgles off the table completely which I don't mind because it doesn't appeal

noT_Him
07-07-2010, 10:35
I'm trying to get the sizes of the units - I think I'll run 23 Demonettes ( Herald ) and 23 Bloodletters ( Herald )

Is Obsydian Armour still so broken ? ( I mean does herald on jugger has 2+ save 5 word and opponents doesnt get to use his magic weapons on him ? )

Whats everyones take on the bloodcrushers - I want to run substantial unit - thought about 4 with herald - would that be to much ?

TurboDzan
07-07-2010, 11:15
Obsidian Armor + Juggernaut will give him a 1+ save in 8th. Not as good as the old 0+, but what can you do?

Bloodcrushers kinda suck. They are really expensive and the least armored heavy cavalry in the game. Fleshhounds are much cheaper, hit almost nearly as hard and have a 2+ ward vs magic.

noT_Him
07-07-2010, 11:59
Ok but Flashound dont have KB and on top of it bloodcrushers can have 25 pts standar that allowes them to go extra D6 on charge ( I think thay get stomp also ).

Apart from that I would like to hear what you think about glean magic - someone told me that the spell is cast like a bound spell so in 8ed you would have to cast glean magic then use another set of dice to cast the other mage spell - but in my copy its written "the spell is cast on its value" nothing about it beaing "bound" item ? If so - can you choose the "level" of the spell ? I think this would be totaly cheese factor - Immagine 3 to 4 Tzeensch sorcerrors with master and all casting extra dice on 2 dices then gleen magicking away ... - oh the horror ...

Kalandros
07-07-2010, 16:50
you only get the base level of the spell, not the higher levels.

The Black Wolf
10-07-2010, 10:02
The Keeper of Secrets gets a fair bit deadlier with virtual perma-hatred (yay for I10) and S6 thunderstomps. It's harder to leadership-bomb now without the terror bubble, and the BSB allowing re-rolls of everything does hurt, but Siren Song + Great Icon of Despair is still a very mean combo. Again, you can't kit him out for big magic in outside of big games.
VERDICT: Super killy and access to some nasty gifts means this guy will still be worth taking. Expect to see him combined with Heralds of Tzeentch to make up for his reduced casting power in 8th.



I will apologise if anyone has thought of this and posted it here, but keepers are AMAZING now, with their asf and initiative 10 they have 6 attacks which re roll to his and if you give it Soul Hunger for the re rolls to wound. And then because he has the asf special rule which cancels out the asl of the thunderstomp it gets to strike with thunderstomp at initiave 10! How sick is that?


Ok but Flashound dont have KB and on top of it bloodcrushers can have 25 pts standar that allowes them to go extra D6 on charge ( I think thay get stomp also ).

Apart from that I would like to hear what you think about glean magic - someone told me that the spell is cast like a bound spell so in 8ed you would have to cast glean magic then use another set of dice to cast the other mage spell - but in my copy its written "the spell is cast on its value" nothing about it beaing "bound" item ? If so - can you choose the "level" of the spell ? I think this would be totaly cheese factor - Immagine 3 to 4 Tzeensch sorcerrors with master and all casting extra dice on 2 dices then gleen magicking away ... - oh the horror ...

Glean magic does not cast the spells it steals at a bound level, it is cast automatically and at the lowest casting value of the spell, sick eh?

Cheers
Matt:angel:

kaintxu
10-07-2010, 17:47
mmmm, i think thunderstomp is a SPECIAL attack that allways goes last, even if you have ASF, thats for my understanding. ASF affects your normal attacks not those special attacks.

Anyhow, i might be wrong aswell

gork or maybe mork
10-07-2010, 18:40
I've seen some people at my flgs using 50 man bloodletter hordes in 3k. It worked quite well offensively but they were vulnerable to shooting and combo charges. What are your thoughts on hording with (very expensive) demons?

mattcrask9
11-07-2010, 18:15
the right units letters and deamonettes just make you have lore of life to bump up the numbers agen

The Black Wolf
11-07-2010, 18:47
mmmm, i think thunderstomp is a SPECIAL attack that allways goes last, even if you have ASF, thats for my understanding. ASF affects your normal attacks not those special attacks.

Anyhow, i might be wrong aswell

The rule for stomp (thunderstomp) is that it is a special close combat attack that has the ASL rule, but which would come under the character (or monster) attacking so therefore the special rules of the character affect the thunderstomp. So the ASL an ASF cancel each other out, meaning he strikes in initiative order with thunderstomp.

And by this ruling i have come up with the following build for my keeper of secrets:
Keeper of Secrets
Level 2, Siren Song, Enrapturing Gaze, Soul Hunger 560pts

So i get my 6 attacks at ASF with a re roll against most things and re rolls to wound and then my thunderstomp at initiative 10 with re rolling to wound also :)

Cheers
Matt

kaintxu
11-07-2010, 21:48
I like it, but do you think the soul hunger is necesary, its going to wound almost allways at 2's, so that should be enough

The Black Wolf
11-07-2010, 22:05
it could be, but going up against a ranked unit or something hard could mean the difference.
Oh, and my luck is quite awful so re rolls are always useful :)
Although, even with the luck, the 6 games of 8th ed that i have played i have the record of 5 massacres and 1 minor loss...

Cheers
Matt

kaintxu
11-07-2010, 22:19
Guys since the Thunderstomp rules goes per base S and so a Bloodthister with the +1 S and flaming attacks would make D6 thunder stom S6 attacks, but, would they be flaming?

The Black Wolf
11-07-2010, 22:35
No they would not, the weapon is what gives the flaming attacks, not a gift that makes all close combat attacks flaming.
Good idea though :)

Cheers
Matt

kaintxu
12-07-2010, 00:19
no, i rather it not being flamig, that way you can deal with stuff inmune to flaming, the other way around your screw.

But since icons are not magic weapons, but just that icons, the icon gives you flaming attack so due to your own interpretation all close combat attacks are flaming

jspyd3rx
12-07-2010, 01:10
Say guys, I really want to run Bloodcrushers and try to make them work. How should I construct my list around them and how many can I get in 2.5k? I know a lot of people say they suck, though I really like the models coming out soon.

blackjack
12-07-2010, 01:44
My crushers stomped face this weekend. 4 with a herald on a jugger, full command and icon of +1d6 charge.

So far Daemons are still sick filth in 8th, which is a shame as I would like to play them.

jspyd3rx
12-07-2010, 13:56
Was your list centered around your juggers?

badguyshaveallthefun
12-07-2010, 22:35
Here's a question that I would like to pose to everyone: with the changes to magic now, what do you think is better for the LoC, twin-heads or Tzeentch's will? I know it's probably going to boil down to personal preference, but I'm curious what others think.
Personally I'm still a fan of Tzeentch's will, as being able to prevent the [now] much nastier miscasts goes a long way towards keeping my general alive.

mattcrask9
13-07-2010, 14:42
fatewaver u get both lol and whos still using nurgle cause i know i am

_Ashdil_
14-07-2010, 10:12
I have been thinking of how to use Bloodcrushers. I love the model, and now with plastics coming, I will be drooling over them like a teen first discovering girls!

Now, can they be used in big numbers?
As they are monstrous cavalry, the back rank only gets 1 attack each, as the juggers themselves cant attack, right!?
So running a unit of 6, or 5 with Herald, and full command. A preatty big investment in points. And the back rank can maximun give you +4 in combat res. 3 A and one rank. Is that worth it? I would say no, but the look of it would be awesome. But perhaps two units of 3 is better, however in a 2250p game you cant give both FC and the +D6 Icon. And you have to leave you Flamers at home aswell.

The idea with the big unit is to have a Tzeencth Herald with lore of light. So that we get the only movement spell in 8ed core Lores. With that they can get an impressive 32" move first turn! Without the spell they can get a 25" charge if they have the banner.
So big unit worth it? Or scrap that (most likely) and go with a smaller unit + Herlad and then some other rare? I think that latter works best, but how well do you think that massive unit will do on the battlefield?

Invid
16-07-2010, 19:22
If Thunderstomp Give you "Always Strikes Last" and "Always Strikes First" is cancelled out from this- You Would get the D6 attacks at I10 from Thunderstomp- HOWEVER Part of the "Always Strikes First" rule is the rule that allows you to reroll hits.

So a Keeper of Secrets Always attacks at I10, 6 Base Attacks plus D6 Thunderstomp attacks, with no rerolls to hit.

Can anyone substantiate or refute this claim?

fubukii
16-07-2010, 19:33
you only get the ASL when your thunder stomping it does not effect your usual attacks...


so the KOS gets rerolls as normal.

TheTrueSloth
20-07-2010, 14:29
Here's a question that I would like to pose to everyone: with the changes to magic now, what do you think is better for the LoC, twin-heads or Tzeentch's will? I know it's probably going to boil down to personal preference, but I'm curious what others think.
Personally I'm still a fan of Tzeentch's will, as being able to prevent the [now] much nastier miscasts goes a long way towards keeping my general alive.

I'd go with tzeentch's Will TBH especially as in this edition the miscast is horrendous and the LoC adds his magic level to the casting roll as it is already.

On a side note, I overheard someone in the local GW talking about taking plaguebearers in 3 ranks of ten in their 1000pt army with Full Command and a Tzeentch Herald with master of Sorcery (using Lore of Beasts) so he can cast Wyssan's Wildform on them, making them T5 infantry throwing out 21 S5 attacks against other units with wide facings. The other advantage being that he also has access to the Bolt thrower spell, a hex to reduce WS, a massive buff for himself and a spell to turn his Wizzie into a Mountain Chimera. Seemed somewhat gimmicky, but then he did have a unit that just couldn't be shifted come hell or high water.

I'm struggling to pick a lore I like for my daemon army (only recently picked them up so haven't had much chance to play with them). I'm stuck between four main lores (this is, of course, on a tzeentch Herald with Master of Sorcery, probably in a chariot):

Lore of Beasts - the signature augment spell on daemonettes looks like it could help a hell of a lot. Plus I'm a fan of any of my wizzies turning into Mountain Chimeras or Dragons :). I'm not a fan of Pann's Impenetrable Pelt and I quite like Savage Beast of Horros but the rest of the spells I'm really fond of.

Lore of Life - I was actually reading this one over earlier and was somewhat gobsmacked. An augment that would double my Bloodletter's move and attacks as well as giving them the ASF ability? A magic net that murders skinks in particular but mainly any fast cav/shooty/skirmishy unit (Dryads maybe excepted) for trying to moves/shoots/casts spells? The several direct damage light spells are pretty cool and Pha's Protection seems like another good way of trying to get squishy daemons into combat without dying too much. Would the Light of Battle spell work on our instability tests (assuming we lose a combat)?

Lore of Death - seems better in a Tzeentch themed list TBH but then the various hexes are really cool, the Purple Sun of Xereus IMO is...entertaining, the character assassination spells are always nice but IMO the ability to generate more power dice (potentially) is what makes the lore thoroughly tempting, I still feel either Life or Beasts would probably work better as an all round lore rather than just magic focused.

Lore of Shadows - Not entirely sure how I feel about this, personally I think Melkoth's Mistifying Miasma might be the second best spell in the entire lore as even augmented it really nerfs your opponent's stats. But really the only spells to have really caught my eye were the Pit of Shades (definitely one of those spells you need dramatic music for) and Okkam's Mindrazor (daemonettes wounding nearly everyone on a 2+). But I'm not sure.

So what magic lores is everyone else thinking of taking (as tbh I think right now the BRB lores are probably overall better than all of our daemon ones)?

Toodles

3lwap0
20-07-2010, 15:44
I have been thinking of how to use Bloodcrushers. I love the model, and now with plastics coming, I will be drooling over them like a teen first discovering girls!

Now, can they be used in big numbers?
As they are monstrous cavalry, the back rank only gets 1 attack each, as the juggers themselves cant attack, right!?
So running a unit of 6, or 5 with Herald, and full command. A preatty big investment in points. And the back rank can maximun give you +4 in combat res. 3 A and one rank. Is that worth it? I would say no, but the look of it would be awesome. But perhaps two units of 3 is better, however in a 2250p game you cant give both FC and the +D6 Icon.

I can assure you that units of three blood crushers with the +D6 charge banner are amazing. One of the first demon games played, they survived enough shooting to crush right into the back ranks/flank of a mean dwarven army by turn 2. The guy's flank crumbled, as they methodically destroyed a warhmachine a turn. I can't advocate two ranks personally, but three seemed plenty killy to me.


Personally, I think 3-4 Seekers with a Herald, + the "You charge me" 25 point gift, + the banner that says they can only take hold reactions is clutch. If you get first turn, take your 12 inch vanguard move, march next to a weaker unit (archers, thunderers, bowmen, etc.) and wait until his turn, then make them charge you. You can negate a huge unit of shooting, and crush them. If you go second, it could be much worse, you'll have to survive a turn of shooting/magic with the unit. It's risky, but it's got real potential I think.

Sandals
20-07-2010, 17:11
fatewaver u get both lol

can we assume not everyone has jumped on the "i'm allowed to use SC so i will" bandwagon?

thanks

i always used to go two heads, but i only had my LoC at lvl 3 so used to be able to only use 4 dice. the extra score was needed. now i'll probably go for will, but not sure.

not going to be touching the daemons for a while though, got the ogre love at the moment :)

Soul of Iron
20-07-2010, 18:23
Fateweaver is WAY too cheap for his points. I can't wait to get the model but I don't think I'll use him as Kairos unless it's a Hard Boyz type fight.

McBane
22-07-2010, 14:27
Little background: I was away from the hobby for the better part of 6 years. I only played 3-5 games of 7th edition and now have played 3 games of 8th all against the same opponent - Empire.


On a side note, I overheard someone in the local GW talking about taking plaguebearers in 3 ranks of ten in their 1000pt army ... Seemed somewhat gimmicky, but then he did have a unit that just couldn't be shifted come hell or high water.

Yeah, that seems kind of cheesy to me. I think as Daemon players being accused of cheese recently, we need to fight against that perception. One thing I definitely have found bizarre is how much people use special characters now. I mean, most special characters are underpriced and using one in anything less than about 3000pts seems cheesy to me. Why is Khorne going to send out Karanak to hunt some piddly Empire Captain in 1000pts?


I'm struggling to pick a lore I like for my daemon army (only recently picked them up so haven't had much chance to play with them).

I've had this same struggle myself. I think that I have it down to Beasts or Death. Life isn't evil enough for my taste, even though I could take it with the rules as they are. I tried shadow last night and found myself wishing I had other stuff to cast.

I think buffs in beasts would help out your characters and units a ton. Strength 6 bloodletters or Strength 4 Daemonettes would cause a lot of death even against armored troops and toughness 4 is always a plus. The problem to me with Beasts is damage dealing capacity. It's good to be able to whittle down tough enemy units.

Death is intriguing because of the extra dice and the way it deals wounds and while the buffs aren't great, one of the hexes duplicates some of the effect of wildform on a 9 instead of 10 and doom and darkness means even steadfast leadership 9 enemies break on a perfectly average roll.

As far as unit choices, this is based on my 3 games at 1200pts against Empire. My flesh hounds have been amazing. They've held up entire units of Empire statetroops on their own in a unit of 5 and one game (through some above average dice rolling) held up empire knights for 3 turns after being charged.

I would never field an army without bloodletters because I think every army needs that hitting power. That may be a style choice though.

I've abandoned my poor plaguebearers in favor of daemonettes, but I think a unit of plaguebearers is still really tough. I realize they only get the regeration or ward save, but, most of the time you will still have a 4+ save to ignore everything and toughness 4 doesn't hurt. I think they still have a use to hold units up so higher offensive stuff can get in.

Daemonettes + ASF is a no brainer imo.

Flamers are unreal. My little unit of 5 kept a unit of 30 empire statetroops busy for 3 turns as they moved around them shooting. Once the statetroops finally charged something else, the flamers charged in to push the combat into a victory for the daemons. They are not horrendous in close combat as WS 2 isn't as bad as it seems.

When I was putting together bigger armies, I found myself unable to put in my bloodcrushers. They are just too expensive when I can take more flesh hounds.

I'm going to try converting some fiends from the daemonettes boxed set and some spiders or something. The fiend models are just abhorrent, however, they do seem to be a must have.

Anyway, those are my opinions. Any reaction? I think I've agreed with a lot of people who posted all ready.

badguyshaveallthefun
22-07-2010, 15:41
I too cannot stand the look of the fiends. If they haven't released them in plastic by the time it comes around to do the slaanesh element of my daemons, then I'm planning on converting some from some kind of plastic monster kit (trolls or minotaurs ATM, although I'm still holding out that there might be something better out there) and the Chaos Spawn box.
I recently tried out the lore of life, and have found it to be very much to my liking. Bloodletters don't really need any additional killing power (although it helps) between hatred and the spell which gives +2/+4 toughness, they chew through anything. And with all the multi-wound models that we have in the list, when a herald casts ANY spell, you can heal one wound on a model within 12". Bonus.
If life isn't evil enough for you you could always just make up some sort of fluff saying it's some kind of unholy lore that the daemon has learned to use. It fills the caster/models nearby with unholy vigour (regain wounds) makes them practically immune to pain as they bask in the darkness and despair (+2/+4 T) attacks enemies nearby with tendrils of shadow or waves of revulsion (S3/S4 hits against models in base contact). The sky is the limit.

Von Wibble
22-07-2010, 16:07
You could also add that teh lore of life is about creation, which is a branch of change. It is very much linked with Tzeentch. Look at the old WOC special character Aekold Helbrass (one of the best backgrounds going) as an example.

I would have to agree that the lore of life looks great for DOC. That said, with the casting so much easier I think there is a place for the gods lores too. With fear and terror toned down people don't feel the need to take as much ITP so the Slaanesh lore's traditional weakness is gone.

McBane - Plaguebearers in 3 ranks of 10 is not cheesy at all. Every army can have flaming attacks on at least one of their units thanks to banner of eternal flame so regeneration is out. Also plaguebearers have to rate as one of the worst units in terms of ratio of kills to points costs.

I think flesh hounds and bloodletters do look good - but bloodletters need to be careful against high I hard hitting armies (such as elves) as they can't usually afford to horde up and maintain their strikes after casualties.

Daemonettes need to be careful even with ASF. Run the numbers against cheap horde infantry and you'll see what I mean. They hit hard against lightly armoured troops but if the enemy gets return strikes (very likely full attacks ni this instance) they inflict a lot of pain in return.

Also whilst a lot of Daemon special characters are underpriced I wouldn't say this is true in general (Tiq Taq To anyone?), and that there are some examples of special characters that genuinely have an effect on army build and add an extra dimension to the game as a result, or are simply interesting rather than just a different version of a lord choice (both TK characters, Morghur, Green Knight to name but a few).

It is sad that all the daemon special characters are very well written in terms of rules, but some are simply not accurate in points cost. Oh and also that there is only 1 Slaanesh character (why no Azazel?).

McBane
22-07-2010, 17:40
McBane - Plaguebearers in 3 ranks of 10 is not cheesy at all. Every army can have flaming attacks on at least one of their units thanks to banner of eternal flame so regeneration is out. Also plaguebearers have to rate as one of the worst units in terms of ratio of kills to points costs.


My bad, I didn't quote the entirety of it. Here is the rest of the paragraph:
"On a side note, I overheard someone in the local GW talking about taking plaguebearers in 3 ranks of ten in their 1000pt army with Full Command and a Tzeentch Herald with master of Sorcery (using Lore of Beasts) so he can cast Wyssan's Wildform on them, making them T5 infantry throwing out 21 S5 attacks against other units with wide facings. The other advantage being that he also has access to the Bolt thrower spell, a hex to reduce WS, a massive buff for himself and a spell to turn his Wizzie into a Mountain Chimera. Seemed somewhat gimmicky, but then he did have a unit that just couldn't be shifted come hell or high water."

I also suppose the original poster was more accurate with "gimmicky" than my sentiment as I read it again. I just wouldn't want to sink 530 points into a gimmick at 1000pts. I am more just up in arms over the rampant special character use. Obviously they give your army more flavor, but why would I take a fully outfitted herald of khorne when I get skulltaker for the same price?

You make several other good points about the heartiness of the units. I personally think it's pretty ridiculous that if I kill half of a unit of 20 in ranks of 5 they would still get full attacks, but I guess almost everyone would play the high init races then and it would be overpowered. With their high move speed, Daemonettes may be a better flanker than primary attack unit.

I also like the lore of life spin. A little closed-minded on my part to think about it the other way. Maybe I'll reconsider, but I think I'm going to try death tonight.

JCF
23-07-2010, 02:13
All magic stems from Tzeentch, I'm not sure why lore wise people have an objection to using life. The only thing I find really funny is how nobody is going to use the lore of Tzeentch itself when for 25 points you have access to 7 spells which nearly all have two casting values.

southpaw
23-07-2010, 05:01
Can a hero join a unit of Fiends of Slaanesh? If so, the herald of Slaanesh on a steed w/ Siren's Call (a.k.a. you charge me) gift in a unit of 6 fiends would be pretty wild. M10 I6 4A each front rank and 3A each second rank plus stomp. Back this up with a Lore of Beast or Lore of Life Tzeentch Herald near by and they become pretty tough to kill too.

Darth Bobo
23-07-2010, 06:48
All magic stems from Tzeentch, I'm not sure why lore wise people have an objection to using life. The only thing I find really funny is how nobody is going to use the lore of Tzeentch itself when for 25 points you have access to 7 spells which nearly all have two casting values.

Personally I see great irony in Daemons using the lore of life, which in itself is a reason to take it.

Regarding the Lore of Tzeentch I'm sure it will be used. A big block of Horrors thowing out Bolts of Change anyone?

But otherwise you are right I think. The big bird will have access to the full lore of Tzeentch so his versatility is secured but Heralds gain much from taking a lore from the book, because it nets them a versatility for having access to 7 spells from a lore of choice as opposed to 2 random spells from the Lore of Tzeentch. Also having access to a full lore gives you the advantage of knowing beforehand what your Herald can do allowing for a tactical advantage when constructing army lists. IF MoS allowed me to pick the Lore of Tzeentch and have all the spells of the lore I'd take it in a jiffy and it would easily be in my top 3 or four picks.

So: Full Lore = Perdictability and Versatility = Full knowlegde og Herald capability beforehand = Better optimization of army list and tactics.

Sandals
23-07-2010, 09:09
especially with how Glean Magic was FAQd to work - that's just nasty now!

Seth the Dark
23-07-2010, 13:00
I am looking to run a mono Slaanehi army. Any advice on them?

mortiferum
23-07-2010, 15:46
Siren Song on Heralds / Keepers & Daemon Princes - how do people use this Daemonic Gift on their Heralds / Keepers and Princes?

badguyshaveallthefun
23-07-2010, 16:27
With the random charge distance and being always able to measure distances this gift got even nastier. Park yourself to where your opponent will have to roll boxcars in order to reach you, and then force him to either charge, or flee. Chances are the unit will end up just moving the roll of a dice forward. It's a great way to open up your opponents battle line and get his units all staggered and not able to properly support each other. Use it on a flank to bait his supporting units away from the main line and open themself up to a combined flank charge next turn. Or use it to get some of his units to move in front of each other, forcing him to waste a turn of movement to get things back together. Or use it to force a unit to expose it's flanks to you for a next turn flank charge.

Although it did just occur to me that a lot of this doesn't work anymore because now all he has to do is pass a LD test and he can redirect the charge in any direction he wants. Oh well. I'll have to practice with it some more, I've been having too much fun with Khorne daemons lately. (just got the FW Bloodthirster and the FW Khorne Daemon Prince and herald)

Archibald_Godboldt
23-07-2010, 17:36
As far as lores go, has anyone considered Metal? All units withing 12" getting +1 to hit and a 5+ scaly skin? On top of that you have Final Transmutation for dealing with any pesky horde units.
I myself have been waffling between Life and Shadow. Either raising my toughness or lowering their strength. Seems about the same to me.
Sorry, I'm kinda rambling but... Well, there it is.

badguyshaveallthefun
23-07-2010, 18:35
The 5+ scaly skin buff does wonders for bloodcrushers...:evilgrin:

I do like the lore of metal a lot, and the fact that one of my regular opponents plays WOC and HATES Marauders helps all the more. :)

I'm finding that I cannot take enough HoT's to get at all the lores that I want, as to put it simply, I WANT TO TAKE THEM ALL. (Except fire, boy do I not like that lore)

I find that with this edition, I'm going more towards buffs/debuffs than for direct damage. With the majority of our core units being T3, step up has really hurt Daemons, and using these types of spells helps to keep my troops alive. And just about ALL the lores have useful buffs and debuffs that I see working well in given situations. Kudos (again) to GW for a well designed edition of Fantasy.

Archibald_Godboldt
24-07-2010, 07:20
So I played a 2500 pts. game today with this list:

Skulltaker
HoS: Many Armed Monstrosity
HoT: Flames of Tz, MoS (Shadow)
HoT: Flames of Tz, MoS (Metal)

30 Bloodletters: Full cmd
24 Daemonettes: Full cmd, Siren Stand.
18 Daemonettes: Full cmd
30 Horrors: Full cmd, +1 cast banner

6 Fiends
5 Flamers: champ

He played Grudge Thrower/ Thunderer Dwarfs...
It did not go well. He had a horde of 40 Longbeards with 3(!) characters in it. the few spells I got past his dice stealing, +2 dispel banner having BSB were very effective, unfortunately they were just not enough.
The Bloodletters were stellar as only 12 reached his line but wiped out 20 Ironbreakers and 2 grudge throwers. The Daemonettes were quite good despite a poor charge roll which left my Fiends unsupported. They held up the horde for quite a while though.
In summation, not a great barometer except to say that this build gets wrecked by gunline armies, which I already knew.

Hope this gives some insight. If anyone has any questions about details of the game, I would be happy to answer. PM me.

Cheers

Vegeta365
24-07-2010, 11:47
As far as lores go, has anyone considered Metal? All units withing 12" getting +1 to hit and a 5+ scaly skin? On top of that you have Final Transmutation for dealing with any pesky horde units.
I myself have been waffling between Life and Shadow. Either raising my toughness or lowering their strength. Seems about the same to me.
Sorry, I'm kinda rambling but... Well, there it is.

Well lowering the strength for other armies units is better in a way as it lowers the armour save modifier, but thats not the case for the daemons with 5+ ward.

The issue I have had so far is that having toughness 5/7 realy helps daemons stay in the fight, but in youre opponents turn you drop back down to T3 when they dispell the remains in play. Then you take huge casualties. We need to win combats and win them quickly.

Ways to do this I guess are to remove youre opponent from having steadfast by having more ranks of daemons and ensuring you win the combat by enough to make them fail the LD test (and probably the reroll too).

Using Slaanesh spells, masque and BSB to reduce units LD has been the best idea for me. With these you can then ignore steadfast a bit and just ensure you win combat and they should run. Solo Fiends help with this with rear/side charges to aid combat res and for cutting down the opponent.

DaemonReign
24-07-2010, 12:13
One of the Huge weaknesses of the daemonic Infantry (Daemonettes/Letters) can easily be fixed using some augment spells from either LIFE/BEASTS or some hexes to reduce enemy str. We get access to whatever spells we want with kairos or any MOS spell caster and we should take advantage of this to boost our survivabilty as our troops offensive power is very impressive

Yes, in my first game of 8th Ed I took a horde of Plaguebearers and managed to cast Birona's Timewarp on them in their first round of combat - they completely annihilated the opposing horde of dwarves.

In the same game, I had a horde of 55 Bloodletters + a Herald - and there was no stop in that unit either (even though this is because my opponent concentrated his fire on my warmachine-hunters and a Bloodthirster).

I basically agree with what most seem to be saying here.

1 - Nurgle has taken a nosedive but if you want to gamble with Augments then Plaguebearers can be turned into absolute monstrosities.

2 - I actually find Fiends and Bloodcrushers have FINALLY become worth their points in 8th Edition - making an 18 model horde with each of those troop-types over the comming months (the new Errata gives them both Monstrous Support, and sure Fiends lose 1 attack in the second and third rank but they will still be scary). Bloodcrushers were never anything but expensive good looks to me in 7th - I'm glad getting a bunch of them anyways is gonna pay off in 8th.

3 - FleshHounds. I don't think they're that much worse in 8th Ed. They get Monstrous Support so of course you'll have to spend points on bigger units but they'll get the same job done (I typically fielded them 8 models in each unit in 7th, now I'm making trays for 15).

4 - Beasts, Nurglings.. Didn't use Nurglings much, and Beasts were IMO never worth concidering at 100pts/model - not in 7th and certainly not in 8th.

5 - I'm having a hard time seeing how Screamers and Furies will do much good. Still, a usually spend a small portion of points on them anyways because the opponent is usually suckered into blasting them off the table when he really has more pressing matters to attend.

All in all, I don't feel that Daemons were nerfed by 8th Ed. I just feel it's now more fun to play with them. The multi-spam of minimal horror-blocks is a bygone, instead I get a reason to paint up tons of new core-troops and field armies that "really look like armies".

And the same goes for everyone else.

I know there's this incessant "politically correct" opinion about Daemons being broken etc but I never had that experience in our games, so in our group things will just continue as before. More fun for everyone. Daemons included.

badguyshaveallthefun
24-07-2010, 16:10
The issue I have had so far is that having toughness 5/7 realy helps daemons stay in the fight, but in youre opponents turn you drop back down to T3 when they dispell the remains in play. Then you take huge casualties. We need to win combats and win them quickly.



(Emphasis mine)

Flesh to Stone is not a remains in play spell, it lasts until the beginning of your next magic phase. Your opponent shouldn't be able to dispel it in his phase, only at the time of casting.

I too am finding that small units just aren't doing it. I'm still running my bloodletters in units of 18, trying to find ways of making them work, but I think I might have to buff my units up to 24/30.

I've started fielding my horrors in units of 30, but I was just wondering if people thought MSU's might still work. The reason being: More channeling attempts, and you need only throw one die at flickering fire (especially now that they would get +1 anyway), if you fail to cast it, oh well, that's the only spell they know. Thoughts?

Archibald_Godboldt
24-07-2010, 16:25
The other thing I found in my game yesterday was that I didn't really want to save dice for the horrors in most cases. There were times when I planned to use them first but usually it was for Gift of Chaos when I got into the middle of his line. Agree with more channeling though.
More games must be played...

DaemonReign
24-07-2010, 16:56
I too am finding that small units just aren't doing it. I'm still running my bloodletters in units of 18, trying to find ways of making them work, but I think I might have to buff my units up to 24/30.

I've started fielding my horrors in units of 30, but I was just wondering if people thought MSU's might still work. The reason being: More channeling attempts, and you need only throw one die at flickering fire (especially now that they would get +1 anyway), if you fail to cast it, oh well, that's the only spell they know. Thoughts?

Personally I think the circumstances under which I will field Bloodletters in 8th Edition without making use of the Horde-rule will be very few indeed. I feel a unit size of 10 wide 4-5 deep will be my new standard for them.

The 3x6 blocks is something that could still work on the flanks with Daemonettes - but with Daemons I believe the competative tendency will be for Core units to form a fat killy centre of 2-3 units and then have Specials/Rares swarm on the fringes of the table. I feel this is really the way to go with all cores in the book.

30-blocks (or thereabout) was always my prefered setup with Horrors. Spamming many small units in order to channel dice is probably not statistically valid - sure you might get one or two extra dice but those Horror-units are completely useless in themselves.

Then again, it will of course be hilarious to turn all this upside down in the larger battles that my group often plays - having a centre made up of a horde of Bloodcrushers and letting the core choices mop up the flanks instead, stuff like that.

I think Augments is the new black for Daemons. Field your core-choices in hordes and for each horde make a Herald of Tzeentch on Disc with Corona/MoS - designate each HoT to a horde unit and also pick the opportunity to knock out warmachines (this build excels at this). The Lore of Light and Beasts are current favorites, but others are good too.

badguyshaveallthefun
24-07-2010, 19:34
Daemonreign- You're probably right with the bloodletters and fielding them in LARGE units. One thing I've noticed with trying to field units of 18 is that there are more units than I have buff spells, and I simply cannot buff all my units. Having fewer, larger units allows for multiple buffs on the same unit, and it allows all your units to be buffed at the same time. I think I will experiment with this next game that I play.
Archibald- I noticed that too, that I end up not saving any dice for my horrors, and I end up using them more as a tarpit for my bloodletters to hit the flank of.
I'm really trying to like horrors and keep them in the list, but it's getting harder and harder for me to justify keeping them in there, right now the only Tzeentch element that I see myself keeping are flamers, screamers, and heralds. And that's a shame as I have two Lords of Change and I absolutely love them, how can I justify calling myself a Tzeentch cultist if the core of my army consists of only bloodletters? With new plastics coming soon I want to add more horrors to my list, but I don't know if that's the wisest course of action.

What balance do you guys strike with heralds? My 2500 point list has 3 heralds, two Tzeentch and one Khorne. Tzeentch heralds both ride discs, and the Khorne herald rides a jugger; he's also my battle standard bearer.

Archibald_Godboldt
25-07-2010, 03:45
Archibald- I noticed that too, that I end up not saving any dice for my horrors, and I end up using them more as a tarpit for my bloodletters to hit the flank of.
I'm really trying to like horrors and keep them in the list, but it's getting harder and harder for me to justify keeping them in there, right now the only Tzeentch element that I see myself keeping are flamers, screamers, and heralds. And that's a shame as I have two Lords of Change and I absolutely love them, how can I justify calling myself a Tzeentch cultist if the core of my army consists of only bloodletters? With new plastics coming soon I want to add more horrors to my list, but I don't know if that's the wisest course of action.

What balance do you guys strike with heralds? My 2500 point list has 3 heralds, two Tzeentch and one Khorne. Tzeentch heralds both ride discs, and the Khorne herald rides a jugger; he's also my battle standard bearer.

Which begs the question... Why are they there? I love the new plastics and have preordered many boxes but...
The three games I have played with them, I found myself wishing they were something else. Almost anything else.
Maybe I will use them for 40K?

I am currently using Skulltaker, 2 Tzeentch, 1 Slaanesh

Vegeta365
25-07-2010, 11:34
So do neither of you find heralds of khorne neccessary for youre large blocks of bloodletters? Do you think the large blocks are working well enough without hatred?

Obviuosly we only have so many points to spend on heralds so if you are not taking kairos then you need the heralds of Tzeentch I guess.

DaemonReign
25-07-2010, 13:16
So do neither of you find heralds of khorne neccessary for youre large blocks of bloodletters? Do you think the large blocks are working well enough without hatred?

Obviuosly we only have so many points to spend on heralds so if you are not taking kairos then you need the heralds of Tzeentch I guess.

The whole idea of the Daemon's List seems to be that the optimal set-up is to have a Herald in each core-unit (hell, you won't afford it but naturally you'd like to have a Herald in Every unit).

Still, in the case of the Khorne Herald: If I had to choose between having a Herald of Khorne in a Horde of Bloodletters OR having a Herald of Tzeentch on Disc supporting this unit I would probably go for the latter option.
- The Khorne Herald is singular in purpose, and fairly easy to kill.
- The Tzeentch Herald can, with a little luck and tact, Augment that unit of Bloodletters in a way that makes re-rolls in the first CC-round look like a joke. Of course there is no guarantee for this, whereas the Khorne Herald's hatred is something you can count on.
- The Herald of Tzeentch is much more flexible and can be thrown in to take care of warmachines and what not. The Iridescant Corona + Master of Sorcery Gift makes for a very unpredictable unit (as far as you're opponent is concerned).

DaemonReign
25-07-2010, 13:27
Which begs the question... Why are they there?

Speaking of Horrors.

When the new Plastic Horrors arrive I'll have 120 Horror Models in total. What I am keen on trying out (and this is easy since my group Only plays what people would call "friendly" games) is to go Massive Horde with them in a battle or two.

Say a unit 10 wide 6 deep, with an Icon of Sorcery. This unit has +5 on casting so that's almost Twice the dispel dice to stop anything I manage to cast, add to this the fact I can role like crazy because Horror-units that size couldn't care less about miscasting.

Inside this unit I will stick something like a HoT with some BrB-Lore (Beasts, depending on adversary).

Then just throw in another Horde of Bloodletters, and have another HoT on Disc flying around making himself usefull with further Augments.

Oh well, just on vacation daydreaming about the beautifull armies I'll be able to field a few months from - suffice to say I think the only use for Horrors that is dead in buried are those multiple mini-units of 10 + Icon of Sorcery because just like you guys are saying yourselves you'll never have PD's for them, and even if you do Flickering Fires isn't really "all that".

Vegeta365
25-07-2010, 17:29
The whole idea of the Daemon's List seems to be that the optimal set-up is to have a Herald in each core-unit (hell, you won't afford it but naturally you'd like to have a Herald in Every unit).

Still, in the case of the Khorne Herald: If I had to choose between having a Herald of Khorne in a Horde of Bloodletters OR having a Herald of Tzeentch on Disc supporting this unit I would probably go for the latter option.
- The Khorne Herald is singular in purpose, and fairly easy to kill.
- The Tzeentch Herald can, with a little luck and tact, Augment that unit of Bloodletters in a way that makes re-rolls in the first CC-round look like a joke. Of course there is no guarantee for this, whereas the Khorne Herald's hatred is something you can count on.
- The Herald of Tzeentch is much more flexible and can be thrown in to take care of warmachines and what not. The Iridescant Corona + Master of Sorcery Gift makes for a very unpredictable unit (as far as you're opponent is concerned).

So what ways do you make use of that set up for the herald of Tzeentch. I can see some big advantages to the disc for movement (especially as he hasn't got a unit of horrors to hide in and instead is just sitting behin/to the side of bloodletters etc) but what ways do you use him? I can see the use of warmachine hunting. Never thought of that before as I just use solo fiends for that task, but this is another option for 20pts and frees the fiends up even more for flank/rear charges.

Why iridescent corona? Hae I been overlooking this gift. I always thought it seemed very overcosted for 25pts. str3 attacks vs warmachines needs 6s to wound. That doesn't seem too reliable. Other than that why would you want him in combat were he may die, with his main use being using flesh to stone etc?

DaemonReign
25-07-2010, 18:14
Why iridescent corona? Hae I been overlooking this gift. I always thought it seemed very overcosted for 25pts.

For the longest time I found Iridescant Corona overcosted as well.

You're right, in most cases it won't make a licking difference if the HoT has those automatic S3 hits before any blows are struck, and you are also correct about Warmachines being hard to wound. But here's an example of why Iridescant Corona can sometimes tip the scale of chance in your favor:

A was playing against Dwarves, and I had a HoT on disc going about his business buzzing around my main core blocks trying to Augment them at the right moment to do more damage, on one flank my opponent had two organguns and a unit of quarellers so that's where my Fiends and Seekers got deployed and that's where they were tighed up (mostly shot-up) for the relevant part of the battle. My HoT on disc, however, suddenly found itself behind enemy lines able to charge a Grudgethrower that kept landing these irritating Direct Hits on my Thirster, so I charged with my HoT.

The HoT is weak in combat. 2 pretty useless attacks, and the Disc got another Attack that is equally useless - out of those three attacks I scored one Wound on the Warmachine crew (meaning that normally 2 guys would have been left standing pounding back at my HoT) - however, with the Iridescant Corona I got to begin the CC-phase by rolling 3 dice, one scored a 6 and voila - only one guy left trying to fight back.

Now that's something even a HoT can handle. In this particular case I had just killed the Dwarf BsB and I had the Standard of Despair within range so the Grudgethrower bailed in a way that it might not have normally - but the point is that without Iridescant Corona I would never have dared charging it to begin with, and it would have gotten off at least another round or two of pounding my units with those "no guess required" shots.

Not to mention what Iridescant Corona will do if you happen to catch a lone enemy-wizard in a charge - my empire-friend has a tendency to field those on them flying horses for example.

Other than that, I mean, you're right, Iridescant Corona won't make a licking difference if you're boxed into a unit fight and there's a million hits and wounds about to distributed anyways.

Soul of Iron
26-07-2010, 18:15
Something just dawned on me guys and it kind of blew me away somewhat.

I was flipping through the book and it refers to the 2 unit upgrade (Changling & Karanak) are unit champions. They can be brought back with Life magic when killed.

It's kind of awesome. The Khorne/Tzeench combo I've been brewing over just may happen now...

Archibald_Godboldt
26-07-2010, 19:17
That's... terrible. Really really scary. Nice catch!

Heimagoblin
26-07-2010, 19:21
C'mon, you don't need to sink that low when playing daemons.

DaemonReign
26-07-2010, 19:47
C'mon, you don't need to sink that low when playing daemons.

My group don't use Special Characters (including the Changeling and Karanak) but if you do use them there is nothing low about it: The Errata clearly states that they are unit champions in every respect.

Concerning the changeling (I guess he's pretty good, no?) I suppose this somewhat of a boost. Concerning Karanak he seems to cost a ridiculous amount - I mean, I wouldn't WANT to take Karanak even if I played with SC's - so reviving him as a unit champ seems to be a small comfort.

_Ashdil_
26-07-2010, 20:03
I can assure you that units of three blood crushers with the +D6 charge banner are amazing. One of the first demon games played, they survived enough shooting to crush right into the back ranks/flank of a mean dwarven army by turn 2. The guy's flank crumbled, as they methodically destroyed a warhmachine a turn. I can't advocate two ranks personally, but three seemed plenty killy to me.


Personally, I think 3-4 Seekers with a Herald, + the "You charge me" 25 point gift, + the banner that says they can only take hold reactions is clutch. If you get first turn, take your 12 inch vanguard move, march next to a weaker unit (archers, thunderers, bowmen, etc.) and wait until his turn, then make them charge you. You can negate a huge unit of shooting, and crush them. If you go second, it could be much worse, you'll have to survive a turn of shooting/magic with the unit. It's risky, but it's got real potential I think.

With the new FAQ out, where the backrank on Blood Crushers get all thier attacks, I am still unsure if the beasts get that aswell. But still, thats a hell alot better! so 5 with a herald is looking alittle better now!

badguyshaveallthefun
26-07-2010, 22:27
Yes, bloodcrushers just got really good, they might acutally be worth all the points that you pay for them now. I've been planning on running a unit of six once the plastic models come out; cast Birona's time warp, and you'll actually get to use all 19 of those attacks! (plus the crushers)

@Ashdil: only the back rank of riders get the attacks, sadly the second rank of crushers won't be attacking.

I've never taken Karanak, I think he's way too expensive, and I hate the model, so he's out.

I've never used the changeling, more from a 5th edition "special characters only when approved" mindset, but I might try him out when the new model comes out, I was planning on just using it as a Tzeentch herald on foot, but I think it will be fun to mess around with my opponents :evilgrin:.

Malladorin
27-07-2010, 10:36
What does everyone think is the optimum size for units of daemonettes? Also, is it worth having a herald in there, or are they just too killable?

Discord
27-07-2010, 11:45
The way I read it, bloodletters on juggernauts count as monstrous cavalry, letting only the riders in back ranks strike with up to three attacks. As they only have two, seems like 70 points is quite steep a price for that, plus an added vulnerability to cannons.

RMacDeezy
27-07-2010, 13:58
@ mallodorin

i run my main daemonette blocks in a 6x4 or 5x5 and the support blocks in 5x3. i like 6x4 because they still throw out a lot of attacks but still have ranks against elites. against hordes i reform them to 12x2 now. watching a 12x2 formation of daemonettes face off with 40 stormvermin and kill 15 in the first round of combat was inspiring!

Anardakil
27-07-2010, 14:23
I will probably use a unit of six bloodcrushers. Mainly because they are so freaking cool :D but I think they'll be pretty good too, although maybe a bit expensive.

Von Wibble
27-07-2010, 20:31
Having taken out bloodcrushers easily in the shooting phase of every game I have faced them (and considering I am using high elves, one of the worst shooting armies in the game, that's saying something) I would say they're just to vulnerable for the points, and advise fiends instead.

Horrors do have a use if you go magic lite in that you wouldn't be using the pool dice anyway so might as well get their spell off, and you get a bonus to dispel. This gives you a bit more freedom when choosing characters. With their flaming attacks they are also a good utility unit for if the enemy take something like trolls or a hydra.

R MacDeezy - I don't quite understand why 12 wide - with big bases against stormvermin's smal bases you won't get all of them in contact (10 is the maximum possible with 2 attacking on the diagonals) and just invite a chariot charge or the like.

Archibald_Godboldt
28-07-2010, 16:48
I had a 6x4 and a 6x3 unit of Daemonettes in my last game and they did ok. They bigger unit had a Herald which helped some. Once I cast Wissan's Wildform on them they chewed through 2 units of 6 Ironguts. I have concluded that I will be using Beasts and Light as my lores of choice for the forseeable future. Pha's Protection is stellar and if you couple that with Speed of Light, most things will hit you on 6's. Very exciting.
Now I'm just trying to figure out what I'm gonna take instead of Horrors. Flesh Hounds maybe?

mattcrask9
29-07-2010, 20:40
i used in a 1k HofT with master of sorcey, HofS 30 deamonettes with full command 5 flesh hounds and 4 fiends and the list worked well i took lore of death and when units are -1T and -1S deamonettes are much better. coupled with doom and darkness and purple it just gets better. i think i will use beast and transformation spell and see how we go.

mattcrask9
02-08-2010, 02:49
are 6 fiends or 5 crushers with a hearld more effective

Archibald_Godboldt
02-08-2010, 06:07
I think 6 fiends is more effective simply by cost. However, when you factor in that your stomps have killing blow with 'crushers. Tough to say. I have been using 6 fiends in my list alongside 3 'crushers and I usually wish that the 'crushers were something else. Might be I'm not using them correctly as I've only really played 4 games with Daemons, but I usually love the Fiends and hate the 'crushers.

Lacrimosa
07-08-2010, 14:04
Hi! :)

So I've finally succumbed to my bf:s wishes and decided to get into WFB, and my sight is set on DoC after hours and hours of contemplating.

I've red this thread and also their armybook throughout and figured it was time to get some advice from people that actually play daemons.

Now, the only thing I'm really set on are the flamers, fiends and KoS.

Core I'm very iffy about. I like the horrors, but the opinions about them seem very different. Also a block of 30-40 seems to be the way to go (if you're taking them ofc), accompanied by a HoT and Icon of sorcery.

I'm equally interested in both letters and nettes, so I'd like to hear some thought about them from more experienced players.
Hounds... well I can't make up my mind if I like them or not.

When coming to characters I like Blue scribes and skulltaker. Don't know which one to take tho, guess it depends on the rest.

Well, thats about it.
The point limit is set to 2500 pts.

Remember I'm a clean slate, and hopefully you guys can enlighten me some into the world of "must have" daemons :angel:

Thanks in advance.

fubukii
07-08-2010, 14:40
Hi! :)

So I've finally succumbed to my bf:s wishes and decided to get into WFB, and my sight is set on DoC after hours and hours of contemplating.

I've red this thread and also their armybook throughout and figured it was time to get some advice from people that actually play daemons.

Now, the only thing I'm really set on are the flamers, fiends and KoS.

Core I'm very iffy about. I like the horrors, but the opinions about them seem very different. Also a block of 30-40 seems to be the way to go (if you're taking them ofc), accompanied by a HoT and Icon of sorcery.

I'm equally interested in both letters and nettes, so I'd like to hear some thought about them from more experienced players.
Hounds... well I can't make up my mind if I like them or not.

When coming to characters I like Blue scribes and skulltaker. Don't know which one to take tho, guess it depends on the rest.

Well, thats about it.
The point limit is set to 2500 pts.

Remember I'm a clean slate, and hopefully you guys can enlighten me some into the world of "must have" daemons :angel:

Thanks in advance.

Horrors can be good in larger blocks, but then you lose out on combat potential. I prefer blocks of blood letters and daemonettes personally. Letters work in 25-50 man blocks, and gain great benefit from the lore of life and horde rule. Daemonettes are best in 30 man blocks or so with shadow supporting them. i would keep your main stay core the same (either all letters or all nettes) then support with HOT/LOC with the correct lore of choice.

As for other must haves, hounds make excellent active cr flankers, i would probably use a unit of 6 just to stack up kills and active CR. FIends are also very good either as a single man unit (for redirecting/warmachine hunting) or a larger unit to negate ranks and such (2 ranks of 3 or 2 ranks of 4).

Flamers are a amazing support unit for daemons, being able to march and shoot makes them very deadly. In addition in a pinch you can flank/rear charge with them for extra CR.

I would suggest avoiding the following units if you are going for competitive play:
Daemon prince, Plaguebearers, Nurglings, beasts of nurgle, screamers, and furies

Sandals
07-08-2010, 20:20
I used a big block of horrors in the last edition and it worked quite well. under teh new rules though i haven't taken the daemons for a spin yet, but i can see it being a solid choice in this edition too. i used to take them to complement my Birdie, and as a second wizard they were awesome. i would suggest at least 30 to get well into the Level 3 bracket. Don't worry too much about going for Level 4, the spell is awful and the extra +1 to cast isn't worth it in my opinion. just give them the icon as you say and it makes up the difference.

As it's your first army and a new rules system, i say get whatever you like the look of. you'll find out your play style after a few games - whether you like big units or lots of fast stuff or focused on characters - and then you can tailor your army to match.

Have fun!

Hammer49
08-08-2010, 09:23
Has anyone tried out seekers this edition. I quite like the new models and have been contemplating getting some.

Falkman
08-08-2010, 10:38
However, when you factor in that your stomps have killing blow with 'crushers.
No they don't, special rules don't apply to Stomps, see the rulebook FAQ.

mattcrask9
08-08-2010, 15:42
@hammer49

i am using them in a campgian on thursday a unit of 9 with a hearld BSB charge me of flee and -2 leadership but with a hearld of tzeencth aswel using beasts of death. to boost stats mainly strength. i will see how it goes. to back them up in combat 6 fiends and 12 flesh hounds

RonCrazy
08-08-2010, 16:26
if i run bluescribes and roll a school, can i then choose to make that spell the signature spell ?

dsem
09-08-2010, 01:48
Just curious. Is a mono-Tzeentch DoC army remotely viable?

PeG
09-08-2010, 11:26
I have tested mono tzeentch and found it a bit unreliable. My kills mainly came from flamers (still an amazing unit) and magic. Horrors dont do much in close combat and cost to much to get steadfast. IF you roll well for powerdice a combination of tzeentch casters and flamers can kill almost anything.

dsem
09-08-2010, 12:59
Mmm. Thanks for the insight. :)

Oseru
10-08-2010, 22:30
A couple of quick questions:

How many attacks per model do khorne dogs get from their second rank?

Has anyone mounted an HoT on a chariot of tzeentch to give it a secondary ability to act as a warmachine hunter?

Falkman
11-08-2010, 00:12
Flesh hounds get one attack each from the second rank.

I don't really see a HoT on chariot as viable, with only a 10" move he's still much worse than Furies or Seekers at getting to (and killing) war machines.

Citadel97501
11-08-2010, 01:02
Keeper of Secrets ASF + I10 = D6 thunderstomp(normally ASL) at I10

I saw someone post this I believe this is correct as the ASF cancels out the ASL. Something to think about.

Unfortunately the FAQ for the BRB, has said that special rules do not apply to Stomp or Thunder Stomp. . .

brother slaughterer
11-08-2010, 07:40
time to dust off the old daemons for a 1st foray in to 8th.

Will mono-khorne list be viable?

thinking: 3 blocks letters, doggies (10), crushers (5) and a couple of heralds for 2k

Viable, workable option in 8th Ed?

Cheers

Sandals
11-08-2010, 08:44
Has anyone mounted an HoT on a chariot of tzeentch to give it a secondary ability to act as a warmachine hunter?

I have a HoT on a chariot from 7th that was ace, but with the reduction in flying moves i think i'm going to be leving it. if i want a flying character i think i'll go for the disc

Wade Wilson
11-08-2010, 10:15
Hi guys. im a 40k vet new to Fantasy (well, Skaven 14 years ago but things have changed ever so slightly) and giving serious thought to starting a DoC army. Just have a few questions. (and i apologise completely if i am posting in the wrong area)
I will be mostly playing games around 2000 points and as much as i would love to field a Lord i would rather boost my core units with a herald in each of them.

Im looking at using:

Herald of Khorne - Obsidian armour - 150
Herald of Tzeentch - MoC - 140
Herald of Slaanesh - Battle standard - 115

with 95 points left i was debating whether to add a Daemon Icon (like the great standard of sundering or Icon of Despair) or if i should A. give my Herald of Slaanesh MaM for extra attacks or make her/him/it a level 1 wizard. I thought that Acquiescence plus an icon of despair might be quite a nasty combo but alas i wont have the points as my characters will go over 25%(unless i change obsidian armour for armour of khorne and flaming sword).

These heralds will be leading units of core models;
Bloodletters (23, standard, musician) - 294
pink horrors (29, standard, musician, icon of sorcery) - 381 (mainly for the level 3 spell, the level 4 one seems kinda meh and spawning a small unit of Pink Horrors is kinda naff when you need at least 6 to cast a spell...)
Daemonettes (23, standard, musician, siren standard) - 319

Along with these units i want to be nasty and include:
x6 flammers of tzeentch - 210
x3 Bloodcrushers (standard, musician) - 240 (i have read what people have been saying about these guys on this forum and lets face it they look amazing and may have plastics out soon, but is a unit of 3 too small?)

This will leave me with over 150 points to add 12 extra troops to share between my core regiments or an extra bloodcrusher and 6 troops to share (or alternatively add standard icons, unit champs etc).

How do people feel about units of blood crushers as opposed to fiends, hounds and seekers? Rather than using Bloodcrushers i was considering using a unit of 5-6 fiends or 3 fiends and 5 hounds.

Sorry for the large post, if this is in the wrong place i will move it.

mattcrask9
11-08-2010, 22:23
in last post i put a 1.5k list up and i used it today and it was insane. made a unit of darkelves leadership 3 did slicing shards on the unit wiped out the unit and his army ran. i was a lilltle embrassed buy it

Killjoy00
13-08-2010, 00:43
Here's my 3k list:

LoC with master of sorcery, power vortex, dark magister (lore of life)

herald of Tz on chariot w/MoS and dispel (lore of death)
herald of Sl w/ siren song and blade
herald of khorne bsb with icon of despair and obsidian armor
skulltaker
~30 bloodletters w/full command and icon of war
18 daemonettes w/ full command
~10 bloodletters w/musician and banner
~10 bloodletters w/musician and banner

6 flamers
6 flamers
6 flamers
1 fiend
1 fiend

Xenolith
15-08-2010, 19:58
I played my first game with a buddy last night. We each had 1,000 points. I have a mono-Nurgle army and he had a Vampire Counts army.

I ran about 30 Plaguebearers in a block with a Herald of Nurgle and Epidemius. They were deployed as a horde because I wanted to learn the relative strengths and weaknesses of that formation. I had some Nurglings and a Beast of Nurgle to lend support / act as decoys.

The first thing I learned was that a horde of Plaguebears is not very agile, so I decided to plant them in the middle of the battlefield. The second thing I learned is that the Tallyman is very, very useful in this version of the rules. The extra attacks from the back ranks skyrockets the tally, so the automatic wound on 4+, the 3+ regeneration for the unit (as long as the Herald is around), and the other benefits come fairly quickly. I also took the banner (Seeping Decay?) that allows re-rolls of failed to wound rolls.

They seemed pretty tough once the battle got going, but that was against VC. Epidemius was tough enough to keep the enemy vampire preoccupied in a challenge. I plan to purchase Daemonettes to act as a flanking force, once the big unit of Plaguebearers is engaged.

One of the enemy units was a horde of skeletons with spears, and I do think that some of the other demon types wouldn't have held up as well against all those attacks.

Well, as we play more I'll learn more. Maybe Plagueberers won't hold up against Brettonians or Beastmen?

w3rm
16-08-2010, 00:35
Why not those two? I really need to convert some plaguebeaers for my Daemon army mainly because they are so useful. WS4 str 4 t4 regen and poisoned is nothing to be sniffed at. I think that the only reason they woundnt hold up to brets is flaming arrows.

Xenolith
16-08-2010, 01:44
Those are the other two armies my friend owns. :)

Hashulaman
16-08-2010, 07:57
I myself do not like horrors. You can't have obscene amounts of dice anymore, and the new lores are in ways better than the Daemon lores. One reason im not bothering with making a KoS a wizard, kit it out for close combat. You can't take Kairos in under 2500 points games here and the store here has made sure that local tourneys stay at 2250 for such a reason.

I still think PB are a very good unit, if you go horde. So they lost ward and regen, that still have a 4+ regen and T 4 compared to T3 Horrors, Letters and 'nettes with a 5+ ward. So a unit of plaguebearers with a herald has the same save as horrors with a herald but is tougher. Yes flaming attacks negate regen but that is splitting hairs.

You can make all your core units better with the new lores though, Light has things like timewarp. Beasts have Wildform, and Lore of Life has flesh to stone, good to make those core more survivable. Then you got regrowth, perhaps my new favorite spell. Put on a tzeentch herald behind a horde unit and just keep bringing back dead daemons.

ChrisIronBrow
16-08-2010, 23:16
I'm a new Daemon player, and struggling to use my Daemons effectively. Mainly My army right now consists of Daemonettes, though the idea of mixing and matching units doesn't bother me at all. I figure The more the merrier! It's a Chaos Slumber Party!

Anyway, on to the topic. I've really been struggling using my daemonettes so far. Basically It seems that the Daemonettes are great on paper, but they seem to die like mad on the table. I love their speed, but with their low strength attacks, and frailness, I'm left asking what role they have in a Daemon Army.

In an attempt to Quantify them and assign them a proper role I've been going over their pros and cons.

It seems that the biggest pro is Always Strike First. Combined with Initiative 5 they are going first with Re rolls to hit on most units out there. This of course requires they have a Herald. Which introduces what I consider their biggest Con. They are frail. So Even the Herald seems to die very rapidly in combat and then the unit loses it's ASF.

This seems to lead to them doing very poorly in drawn out fights as they are expensive and easy to kill. With the 8th edition encouraging large units it seems that more and more this is an issue, as even if they kill 20 models of a 50 man unit they still get full attacks back against them. Which leads to them being wiped out while in small units, and severely injured in Large units.

The other big advantage that I see is their speed. Move 6 is great for infantry! Unfortunately it seems that this just leads to them charging to their own death faster!

So, Overall it seems to me that they might be good in either very small (suicide) units, or Very large (horde) units, Moving along the flanks to take advantage of the speed, and targeting small vulnerable units for removal.

What I seem to be failing at, is using them in any form of a traditional infantry role. Since I have 50 of the Devils, I'd like to hear other thoughts on possible uses, and what's working for Everyone here.

w3rm
17-08-2010, 05:01
I dont use daemonettes in my army but I'd run at least 2 heralds in a unit of 30 horde Daemonettes with torment blades. Maybe give them lvl 1.

Ok throwing out a question here. Is LD bomb without the masque that bad? Because I reaaaaally like the idea with all those ld based attacks of slaanesh and I love the models and stuff.

for a 2500 point army I was thinking

KoS- 585
Allure of Slaanesh, Temptator, Entrapping Gaze, Lvl 2

Herald of Slaanesh- 215
Steed, BSB, Icon of Despair

Herald of Slaanesh- 145
Torment Blade, Lvl 1

Herald of Slaanesh- 145
Torment Blade, Lvl 1

Herald of Slaanesh- 115
Allure of Slaanesh

28 Daemonettes- 366
Full Command

23 Daemonettes- 306
Full Command

5 Furies- 60

6 Seekers- 174
Full command

9 Seekers- 271
Full Command, Sieren Standard

Feind- 55

Feind-55

So its redonkulously fast. The plan is for the Feinds and the 6 lady seeker unit to hunt bsbs and warmachines. Hopefully I can get Phantasmagoria. I absolutely love that spell and Temptator is just too cool not to have. I dont think this list is over the top at all but a very finesse list that requires skill to use. And its definatly not a one trick pony. Becuase I cant wait to see those ld 6 goblin big bosses trying to hit me with phantasmagoria going or else they start killing thier own unit!

Falkman
17-08-2010, 06:43
ChrisIronBrow: Daemonettes pretty much require some sort of buff spell to work well. Top contenders are Wyssan's wildform, Okkam's mindrazor and Flaming sword of Rhuin, they all increase their damage output. The entire lore of life is also great, since it can greatly increase the staying power of your units.

w3rm: That list looks fine, I find that in 8th ed us Daemon players don't have to be as restrictive as before, since our army is quite beatable now. Your army consists almost entirely of frail T3 models, it shouldn't be over the top at all.

ChrisIronBrow
17-08-2010, 12:12
ChrisIronBrow: Daemonettes pretty much require some sort of buff spell to work well. Top contenders are Wyssan's wildform, Okkam's mindrazor and Flaming sword of Rhuin, they all increase their damage output. The entire lore of life is also great, since it can greatly increase the staying power of your units.



That's one of the big conclusions I'm coming to as well. In fact it almost seems like taking a Herald of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery over a HoSlanesh makes sense.


That leads me to try to divine what special advantages Daemonette's bring. The only thing that comes to mind, is the 2x attacks. It just seems that if I'm relying on buffs that other troops form a better core choice. Bloodletters seem to be the Stand out option to compare against.

Movement 5 vs. 6
Attacks 1 vs. 2
Strength 5 vs. 3
Initiative 4 vs. 5

And bloodletters get Killing blow and Magic resistance on top of it.

I just don't see a situation where Daemonette's are the better Core choice.. maybe I'm wrong.

mortiferum
17-08-2010, 14:19
Daemon Lore of Tzeentch - anyone still use this in 8th or should we all be purchasing Master of Sorcery and then picking one of the 8 lores in the BRB?

Lord of Change / Herald of Tzeentch - who (point for point) benefits the most from this Lore (if any)?

Any Daemonic Gifts / Icons that are must haves / must avoid to complement this spell Lore (if any)?

Any further magic strategies / cautionary tales etc. for using Lore of Tzeentch?

Killjoy00
17-08-2010, 19:25
ChrisIronBrow -

Daemonettes are going to be slightly better against unarmored rank and file. Think empire or something.

But especially compare against Marauders. Marauders are generally going to have very little armor, and have i4. Often these days they are getting flails, which means they are going simo with your 'letters and doing a good bit of damage. Letters aren't getting that great advantage out of killing blow, and while the str helps, it isnt as good as it is versus armored ppl. Meanwhile daemonettes are getting more attacks and first. Plus they are more easily going to get the charge off.

These also ignores locus. ASF is probably going to get you rerolls now, making it essentially straight up better than Hatred. But, the Khorne bsb is more survivable b/c it can get armor.

Don't get me wrong, I think 'letters are generally superior. But one unit of ASF daemonettes definitely has a place.

ChrisIronBrow
17-08-2010, 19:44
Yeah, I'm starting to work out the situations where ASF Daemonettes are better. Basicly I think you right. Anything with low armor and initiative less than 5 seems to be their niche. In addition, they probably can tarpit other ASF and high Inititive Troops Better than bloodletters. For example If given the choice of Bloodletters or Daemonettes to match up against High Elf Spearmen, it seems the Daemonettes have a better chance of inflicting more casualties.

w3rm
18-08-2010, 02:14
Daemonettes kill cheap infantry and bloodletters kill cav and elites.

FoolsJourney
18-08-2010, 07:08
Does no one else feel uneasy picking non congruous Heralds and lores? I play daemons, and it just doesn't sit cleanly with me having a practically all Khorne army (who despise magic), with nothing but non Tseentch wielding Tseentch Heralds who in turn use light, life etc. Never been THAT desperate to win a game. I can see it with Kairos, and even The Blue Scribes, but c'mon? I just wouldn't do it unless my opponent was an over competitive cock who tailored his lists equally unfluffily.

Yes, it's perfectly legal. No, it's not cheating. I'd still feel unclean fielding some of these lists.

Falkman
18-08-2010, 08:17
The army isn't designed to be played mono-god, you're supposed to mix and match.

FoolsJourney
18-08-2010, 08:28
Mix and match yes, but I also think neither the game nor the fluff were designed with the intention that Tseentch heralds would be standing in all Khorne rank and file units. I play mixed chaos, and also all Khorne for a change occasionally, but I don't attach heralds to other gods' core units at the start of a game. I guess it's just me.

narrativium
18-08-2010, 08:36
I dunno, I can see it working.

Tactics I've started to see: daemons taking huge units of core - not so much because they've got some deadly attacks, though they do, as because you need to kill all of them to score any victory points.

Take 40 Horrors, maybe with an Icon of Sorcery, and add a Herald of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery. Make your first spell Flickering Fire, roll one power dice for it. A third of the time it'll naturally fail, but you don't care much because it's only one power dice and you weren't planning for them to use any more dice than that. The rest of the time it's been cast on an 7-11 so you need to spend two dispel dice to reliably get rid of it, and that gives the Herald more power.

HalfEvil333
18-08-2010, 09:04
Does no one else feel uneasy picking non congruous Heralds and lores? I play daemons, and it just doesn't sit cleanly with me having a practically all Khorne army (who despise magic), with nothing but non Tseentch wielding Tseentch Heralds who in turn use light, life etc. Never been THAT desperate to win a game. I can see it with Kairos, and even The Blue Scribes, but c'mon? I just wouldn't do it unless my opponent was an over competitive cock who tailored his lists equally unfluffily.

Yes, it's perfectly legal. No, it's not cheating. I'd still feel unclean fielding some of these lists.

I always have a hard time with mixing aligned Chaos units, but the use of any of the BRB lores doesn't seem that odd for me. The various lores are just aspects of Chaos, so it makes sense that the beings made of pure Chaos know how to manipulate them.

The ones that really get me are the armies that only mix 2 Gods, but from opposing factions, like Khorne/Slaanesh or Tzeentch/Nurgle. You rarely see Tzeentch/Nurgle, but Khorne/Slaanesh seems to be really popular these days (probably because of the plastic core kits).

pippin_nl
18-08-2010, 09:34
That's one of the big conclusions I'm coming to as well. In fact it almost seems like taking a Herald of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery over a HoSlanesh makes sense.


That leads me to try to divine what special advantages Daemonette's bring. The only thing that comes to mind, is the 2x attacks. It just seems that if I'm relying on buffs that other troops form a better core choice. Bloodletters seem to be the Stand out option to compare against.

Movement 5 vs. 6
Attacks 1 vs. 2
Strength 5 vs. 3
Initiative 4 vs. 5

And bloodletters get Killing blow and Magic resistance on top of it.

I just don't see a situation where Daemonette's are the better Core choice.. maybe I'm wrong.

Daemonettes also have armour piercing attacks and if you can keep the herald alive, rerolls to hit against almost any unit.

They are also easier to boost with magic, there are plenty of spells that increase strength, decrease toughness or improve chances to wound. Getting extra attacks is possible with only one spell.

mortiferum
18-08-2010, 09:58
Mix and match yes, but I also think neither the game nor the fluff were designed with the intention that Tseentch heralds would be standing in all Khorne rank and file units. I play mixed chaos, and also all Khorne for a change occasionally, but I don't attach heralds to other gods' core units at the start of a game. I guess it's just me.

This can't be legally done - check out the grey box titled Daemonic Characters on page 30 of the Daemon Army book - second paragragh specifically.

Killjoy00
18-08-2010, 15:03
You can put the special characters in any unit though. IE, skulltaker can go in daemonettes.

Asymmetric
18-08-2010, 15:13
How do people feel about running a line breaker unit of of Bloodcrushers.

Herald on Jugger (with armour and fire storm blade) + 7 bloodcrushers with full command. 4 wide, 2 deep. Possibly even throwing skulltaker into the mix as well. Not cheap by any means of course, but scary.


Basically I like the idea of a total sledgehammer unit to smash Temple Guard/Phoenix Guard/Grave Guard/etc, to get at Slann/Telcis/Vampire/etc.

Dakka Dan 42
18-08-2010, 18:16
I have a question/concern if anyone is willing to lend their expertise.

I'm starting a mono Tzeentch list and I want to have two of my Heralds zipping around the board so that they can always be where they need to be. Is it better that I use Discs of Tzeentch or the Chariots?

The extra 4 wounds from the chariot seem like a big help, but at 60 pts I'm just not sold yet.

Any advice?

ChrisIronBrow
18-08-2010, 21:54
Honestly, Avoid the Chariots at all costs. Last edition they were great. This edition they recieved a terrible nerf. With the changes to flying movement, Flying Chariots aren't allowed to march the other 10 inches. So now your Fly move is reduced to a maximum of 10 inches.

Either a disc, or winged horror are better options. Winged horror might have some real promise considering it keeps you herald an "infantry" troop type, so that he can get a 4+ look out sir roll and then his 4+ ward.

Venkh
19-08-2010, 00:01
I used a unit of 40 horrors tonight with the Banner or Sorcery and the Tzeentch herald with MOS and Spellbreaker.

Despite being hit with becalming cognition for most of the game the horrors were still able to get quite a few spells through and weaken the Slanns unit enough to make it harmless in combat vs the Horrors.

I had taken the Banner of Sundering on by Khorne BSB as well and this caused the slann all sorts of problems with miscasts. I did not do this deliberately but it is a good precaution against the horrible damage caused by light spells

I also trialed a unit of 30 Bloodletters in Horde formation with the Herald and really made a horrible mess of a big saurus unit.

My Herald challenged and killed the unit Champion
I directed 4 attacks at the saurus hero in the unit and got him with a killing blow.
The remainder of my attacks caused something like 13 wounds including 7 killing blows.

Snakeyes were required but were not forthcoming.

My Flamers were able to eliminate enemy support units very effectively and all in all I was very satisfied with my armies performance.

40 Horrors plus herald make for a very tough unit with great spellcasting ability
30 horde bloodletters scared the bejeezus out of my opponent. He diddnt want to get anywhere hear them but felt that he had to try any kill the horrors instead.

Happy days!

w3rm
19-08-2010, 00:38
Sounds like a nasty anti slaan list. Slaans are pretty ridiculous and having his casting prowess reduced to that of a lvl 2 is just great.

PeG
19-08-2010, 06:46
I still have to face a Slann without cupped hands and with cupped hands the miscasts seems to be bouncing back again :(

Sandals
19-08-2010, 07:29
My slann doesn't have it :D

Ereinion
19-08-2010, 12:43
Been reading through this thread to catch up, and has helped loads so far.

One thing i want to know if anyone has any experience in is use of chariots?
Now i know discussions concerning the tzeentch one being less optimal due to new flying rules, but have many people tried them?
And has anyone used the khorne or slaanesh heralds on chariots?

Dakka Dan 42
19-08-2010, 13:04
Honestly, Avoid the Chariots at all costs. Last edition they were great. This edition they recieved a terrible nerf. With the changes to flying movement, Flying Chariots aren't allowed to march the other 10 inches. So now your Fly move is reduced to a maximum of 10 inches.

Either a disc, or winged horror are better options. Winged horror might have some real promise considering it keeps you herald an "infantry" troop type, so that he can get a 4+ look out sir roll and then his 4+ ward.

Oh man, I didn't even think of that! I completely forgot that I'd be taking the limitations of the Chariot movement. :(

Yeah, I'm thinking the zippy Heralds are going to be getting either wings and hopping around with the units or discs and zooming around with the Screamers.

Thanks for the advice. :D

Venkh
19-08-2010, 23:32
Well I had a 3k game vs warriors of chaos tonight and managed a decisive win.

The Keeper is the only thing in my list that can really take down a hellcannon. I got a turn 2 charge and killed it off in 2 rounds of combat.

The horrors were great as well. I have found that unless my opponent has something specifically tooled to take them out, they will survive the game.

Another thing to note about Chaos Warriors, they always have to issue challenges. This means that the Herald of Tzeentch in the unit can always refuse and hide at the back of the unit.

I used the banner of sundering again and again, it was great. I used it against Slaanesh magic tonight and saved my horrors from a couple of nasty no ward save spells.

Finally i tried a unit of 10 Flesh Hounds.

I know that having a rank sounds weird but having 15 S5 attacks just seems to swing combats vs infantry in your favour.

It diddnt help that my opponent coundnt roll dice to save his life but so far I am really impressed with the efficacy of:

Flamers - Of Course
Kipper with Sprirt swallower - Immortal and lethal vs virtually anything
40 Horrors with Banner of Sorcery - A 1 unit killer magic phase
30 Bloodletters - Still did very well vs nurgle warriors and the chaos lord. They were losing combat but sticking around due to steadfast.
Single Fiends - Good for getting cheeky flank attacks and generally messing with enemy units charges.
10 Flesh Hounds. Not good on paper but the did well tonight.

I think that all I need to to is lose the furies and a few daemonettes and get myself a couple of Nurgling bases to deal with war machines, still a huge threat to all demon armies!

daa6
20-08-2010, 02:28
Venkh: have you had any thought to running the Changling in with your horrors? save the herald jumping back...

"although does keep him/it safe..." hadn't thought of that......

Hashulaman
20-08-2010, 04:14
Most armies I feel were made by GW with the intention of runnin certain combonations of units. If you run XXX it is best to take XXX to compliment them and/or to make up for XXX's weaknesses.

Venkh
20-08-2010, 09:06
@daa6.

I dont use special characters but a good suggestion :)

The Horrors can be tackled. Watch out for templates and spells that deny ward saves.

So far i have come across:

Pit of Shades (i think?)
Dwellers
Purple Ball
Ecstatic Seizures (WoC Slaanesh)

w3rm
20-08-2010, 17:43
The dreaded 13 spell as well.

ChrisIronBrow
20-08-2010, 19:41
Oh man, I didn't even think of that! I completely forgot that I'd be taking the limitations of the Chariot movement. :(

Yeah, I'm thinking the zippy Heralds are going to be getting either wings and hopping around with the units or discs and zooming around with the Screamers.

Thanks for the advice. :D

Yeah, the other thing worth considering, is that without slots more points spent on hero mounts means less heros.

Instead of 2 Tz heralds on chariots, you could have 2 TZ heralds, and 2 Slannesh Heralds with Torment blade. And then use them as single units to warmachine hunt and stuff.

gork or maybe mork
20-08-2010, 19:51
Also the lore of gold highest spell denies ward saves.

ChaosPuppet
21-08-2010, 13:45
I'm playing in a 3k tournament this week and wondered if anyone had any suggestions for a non-comped 3k list as I've only played the one game of 8th with my daemons so far and this tournament is going to see some horrendous lists!

I'm planning on going with two hordes of core (40 strong) in horrors and bloodletters but I'm worried the bloodletters may be too fragile even with skulltaker and a bsb herald in there. Its a lot of points and I want to make sure I get the best out of them and supporting units so I would appreciate any feedback from people who have used them like this.

Already had to drop my planned Jugger BSB herald due to no LOS! roll...

Vegeta365
21-08-2010, 16:54
What are you planning on using for lord/heralds?

This will allow others to help.

For example if you are using Kairos or some MOS heralds of tzeentch, I would say the bloodletters are amazing. You can get rid of the one main weakness of them (low toughness) with flesh to stone.

Killjoy00
21-08-2010, 18:35
Also take as many flamers as possible. 6x3 or 5x4. I like 6x3 and then a stray fiend or two for warmachine hunters. Avoid hounds - flamers are basically strictly better.

ChaosPuppet
21-08-2010, 21:45
I am planning taking a BT and heralds in both blocks. HoT has MoS and the HoK is my BSB. Also taking Skulltaker to beef up the Bloodletters and the changling in with horrors to give cc opponents a fright, he took out a hydra last weekend! I've got enough points left to take possibly the Masque or Blue Scribes. With MOS I can use the extra PD. I've currently got a unit of 5x2 fleshhounds, 5 seekers, a fiend and 5 flamers. Perhaps another fiend and an extra flamer would be more useful than the the masque or blue scribes...

ChrisIronBrow
22-08-2010, 03:55
So, I played two 1k games tonight with my daemons, and it comfirmed alot of my suspicions about daemons and 8th. I had a Wipeout loss to skaven, and managed (just barely) a draw against high elves.

I had:
HoT; MoS (life)
HoS; Torment blade
40 Daemonettes; full command
3 flamers
4 nurglings

Sadly Even with a Herald Daemonettes can't even beat Skaven slaves.. Sure I kill a lot, but my opponent was fielding units of 50 5x10. So, while I'd killed 10-15 a turn, his attacks back took 3-6 daemonettes. With only 6 turns in a game I can't win with those numbers.

Nurglings were completley useless in a fight, flamers barely caused any damage since all the units were so big, and honestly the only unit that seemed to work was my HoT, and that's because I kept getting off the good remains in play spells.

Basicly after these games I'm having a hard time seeing how using anything other than one minimum sized unit of Horrors for core makes sense.

It looks like Daemons are now even more of a "glass cannon" then high elves.

So, It seems that our troops are practically worthless in a fight against any cheaper horde unit, and all of our choices are very easy to remove with shooting...

I'm left struggling to figure out where to go from here? MSU? since units will die make the opponent target lots of them? Deathstar? Several Heralds of Tzeentch in a block of 60+ horrors?

Ehh, I don't know. I don't even think the Greater daemons look worth it anymore...

Your Mum Rang
22-08-2010, 10:38
I think that engaging those hordes is going to be a real issue. We'll still take casualties whilst causing lots of inconsequential casualties to them.

I like the Soul Swallower Kipper to slam into a big, not-too-cheap unit and chew through it.

ChaosPuppet
22-08-2010, 12:01
So, I played two 1k games tonight with my daemons, and it comfirmed alot of my suspicions about daemons and 8th. I had a Wipeout loss to skaven, and managed (just barely) a draw against high elves.

I had:
HoT; MoS (life)
HoS; Torment blade
40 Daemonettes; full command
3 flamers
4 nurglings


At lower point games I always found it difficult with daemons against armies which can field a lot more models, especially since its so much harder to get them to break now and also with the restriction on hero points.

I'd leave the Nurglings at home personally, I'm not a fan of any of the nurgle units in this edition. I'd rather take a Fiend or 2 for warmachines/wizard hunting and they can also be used in the flanks to help you get combat res.

The Daemonettes are probably better off split into two groups one larger unit perhaps 5x5 or 6x4 with the herald with the siren song gift and a smaller unit you could use for negating ranks at 5x3; you pull in the large block of enemies who have to roll very high to actually get into combat and you set your troops up to give you flank charges into it. It can then be combine charged on your turn with everything else you have - negating ranks and putting them at a massive tactical disadvantage, meaning you will almsot certainly break them in the first round of combat and be caught and killed. At 1k I can't imagine your opponent will have too many big combat blocks and this should leave you with plenty on the board to take on what he has left.

With the rest of the points I'd make a flying herald of Tzeentch who can charge around zapping things with his signature tzeentch spell and whatever else you roll. Who knows you might get bolt of change...

dimetri1
22-08-2010, 17:13
Also take as many flamers as possible. 6x3 or 5x4. I like 6x3 and then a stray fiend or two for warmachine hunters. Avoid hounds - flamers are basically strictly better.

The most flamers you can take in a unit is 6.

ChrisIronBrow
22-08-2010, 17:27
meaning you will almsot certainly break them in the first round of combat and be caught and killed. At 1k I can't imagine your opponent will have too many big combat blocks and this should leave you with plenty on the board to take on what he has left.


See, that's actually my issue, my last too games I was outnumbered both by skaven, and high elves.

My group has finally caught onto 8th, and are taking lots of large units of infantry.

Skaven are taking 100-150 slaves at 1k, and high elves are taking 50-100 spearmen at 1k...

Basicly, I'm winning almost every fight, but my opponents are allways steadfast..

My skaven opponent had 2x 50 slaves, and a 40 clanrat

and the high elf had 2x 30 spearmen and a x20 phoenix guard.

ChrisIronBrow
22-08-2010, 17:30
The Daemonettes are probably better off split into two groups one larger unit perhaps 5x5 or 6x4 with the herald with the siren song gift and a smaller unit you could use for negating ranks at 5x3; you pull in the large block of enemies who have to roll very high to actually get into combat and you set your troops up to give you flank charges into it.

It seems that units of 20 daemonettes are getting killed in 2 turns of shooting in my experience.. And The only Issue I have with siren song, is that it no longer gives a for sure charge. And a failed charge is such a low movement amount.. just the one dice rolled... so it seems to rarely actually pull them out of position.

w3rm
22-08-2010, 19:31
Why not use Plaguebearers supported by a life HoT to tie up hordes? A unit of 19 with a herald with Noxious Vapors. Eat on my T8 4+ Regen hordes!

ChrisIronBrow
22-08-2010, 21:40
Why not use Plaguebearers supported by a life HoT to tie up hordes? A unit of 19 with a herald with Noxious Vapors. Eat on my T8 4+ Regen hordes!

HaHa! I actually think Noxious Vapors and nurgle in general are really under estimated so far in 8th. However, I still think That Horrors are it for hordes. With a Herald they also get a 4+ and theirs doesn't go away from fire, and while they are 1 toughness less, and don't fight as well, I think they support the whole army more.

Your opponent can choose to ignore Plaugebearers, but is forced to deal with Horrors because of thier magic-shooting, and The horrors provide some backup if you fail to cast on your wizard. Plus they are a serious threat once the battle is all jumbled in the middle with their Area affect spell.

Killjoy00
22-08-2010, 23:32
The most flamers you can take in a unit is 6.

Yes, I mean 3 units of 6 flamers, or 4 units of 5 flamers.

Oseru
22-08-2010, 23:42
Here's my opinion on 8th Daemons....

I think the most important thing in 8th is to put bodies on the field. A straight cost comparison causes this to make sense.

HoK (100pts) = 8 1/3 core troops
HoT (115pts) = 9 1/2 " "
HoS (90pts) = 7 1/2 " "
HoN (115pts) = 9 1/2 " "

I think the total of damage i could cause with 8 full bloodletters will be greater than the HoK. In addition, I have a greater total of wounds with which to absorb damage.

So our character usage should be based on the weight of the effect they lend to our troops.

HoT, would most likely rank first as it offers access to more useful lores of magic (the lore of life being my personal favorite). In addition, an extra 16% chance to save against nearly all wounds is fantastic.

HoS, in my mind, ranks second because ASF on 2 attack troops is incredible. The daemonette often has higher initiative than its opponent and will get rerolls in every round so long as the herald remains alive.

HoK makes a good BSB because of access to cheap quality armor. In contrast to this the hatred he confers to his unit has little value, as we will force a ld check on troops who remain steadfast through greater ranks.

HoN also serves as an effective BSB, because even when he doesn't regenerate he has a natural toughness of 5. I personally think, that conferring regen to his troops is of great value, but as has been often noted, this can be negated.

HoT and HoS are my preferred characters as they have the greatest benefit for their cost beyond their stat line. But even then i try to use them sparingly and keep as many decent sized units of core troops on the table.

Just my two cents on the function of our army in the new edition.

dimetri1
22-08-2010, 23:44
Yes, I mean 3 units of 6 flamers, or 4 units of 5 flamers.

Ok, that makes sense.

Lord Inquisitor
23-08-2010, 00:17
I play mono-Slaanesh, so bear in mind my observations are through my pink-tinted glasses...

Herald in every unit. Particularly ASF, but the other loci are just as good. Don't leave home without one in each unit. For big units I would consider two to maintain redundancy. Their combat/magic potential is a bonus to their loci effects!

One thing I would point out as this mistake seems to be made several times in this thread, the ASF rule gives you re-rolls if your Initiative is equal to or higher than your opponent. So Daemonettes get re-rolls against everything that's not I6 or higher (and there aren't many rank-and-file troops with I6!). My daemonettes got quite a bit better against Chaos Warriors when I realised this!

Fiends are just flat out amazing. Units of 6 or 8 are powerhouses.

Seekers aren't bad, you just need to take units big enough to soak up some casualties. 12 or 15 strong. With the siren standard you can roll through enemy lines picking on weaker units that would try to flee.

The Lore of Slaanesh doesn't seem too mean anymore ... but phantasmagoria is as brutal as ever. With Phantasmagoria, Icon of Dispair, Masque and potentially Doom and Darkness from a Tzeench herald, you can make ranked units flee despite Steadfast and if you can stack them you can do it even with the BSB/general in range.

Hashulaman
23-08-2010, 01:34
I do not like Horrors much and think they are overhyped. Mainly because you are capped at 12 dice, you will never be able to pull off the insande magic damage like before. I think bloodletters or plaguebearers with aformentioned Lore of Life Tzeentch herald is a better choice.

Killjoy00
23-08-2010, 04:01
Here's my opinion on 8th Daemons....

I think the most important thing in 8th is to put bodies on the field. A straight cost comparison causes this to make sense.

HoK (100pts) = 8 1/3 core troops
HoT (115pts) = 9 1/2 " "
HoS (90pts) = 7 1/2 " "
HoN (115pts) = 9 1/2 " "

I think the total of damage i could cause with 8 full bloodletters will be greater than the HoK. In addition, I have a greater total of wounds with which to absorb damage.


The problem with this analysis is that first, bloodletters are the best core troop. Plus hatred really helps them because they have only one attack.

Furthermore, getting a herald with an armor save makes him a lot more survivable than the rest of the 'letters. A 3+ is very nice in combo with your 5++.

ChrisIronBrow
23-08-2010, 07:14
The problem with this analysis is that first, bloodletters are the best core troop. Plus hatred really helps them because they have only one attack.

Furthermore, getting a herald with an armor save makes him a lot more survivable than the rest of the 'letters. A 3+ is very nice in combo with your 5++.

While I agree that bloodletters are good, what makes you say they are the best? I'm curious.

It seems that we are going to have to take at least %25 core for a while, so we had better figure out what that 1/4 of our army is going to do to help us win..

I think we will be unable to field the numbers required to break steadfast, and as such many of the advantages of Infantry are lost too us.

For example, everytime I run the numbers on Bloodletters, I just come up with Slower Flesh hounds..

Killjoy00
23-08-2010, 13:09
I thought we had this discussion a few pages back? :) There everyone thought it was obvious you would only take 'letters and I had to argue for one unit of daemonettes! :)

Anyway, you shouldn't really be comparing hounds to 'letters since you have to take 25% core. (Hounds should be compared to flamers, where they always come up short.) Just for ***** and giggles though - for 11 more points than 2 'letters, hounds give you 3 additional movement, 1 additional toughness, 2 additional magic resistance, swiftstride but lose killing blow. They also don't have the ability to take command and can't get hatred. MR is pretty useless, so you have an extra ~4.5 move on the charge and an extra toughness. But KB is very nice. Probably worth 11 points, but not a no brainer (esp. when you can take the magic banner to give extra d6 on first charge).

The better comparison is vs other core. There, they shine. Compare to daemonettes, they are -1 move, +2 str, -1 init, -1 attack. KB >> armor piercing, esp since they have better than AP. Essentially, against any unit that has armor better than 6+ or toughness better than 3, 'letters are going to kill more. I like one unit of daemonettes for those units though. ASF is nicer than hatred though, if you look at herald bonus.

PBs are -1 move, -2 ws, -1 str, +1 toughness, -3 init. Poison is worse than KB. Regen is a lot worse than hatred now. So is 1 toughness worth all that? I don't think so.

Horrors are situational. In the right army, I could agree that they might be better than 'letters. However, if you have 4+ levels of magic already, or more than 1 Master of Sorcery, I'd leave the horrors at home. Their spells aren't that amazing and you'll rarely have enough dice to really take advantage of them. Where I like them is if you go 'Thirster or Keeper, some fighty Heralds and only one HoT. A huge block of horrors is reasonable then.

Venkh
23-08-2010, 13:25
Match a daemonette and a bloodletter side by side and they fight equally well well. Killing blow gives the bloodletter a slight edge.

Consider the supporting attack rule though and the letters pull ahead

10 letters attacking our human with a 5+ save kill 5.5
10 Daemonettes kill 4.1

Factor in hatred and you get 5.5 and 7.9 respectively.

In addition the Khorne herald is hugely more resiliant. The Slaanesh herald dies unless she is in a challenge.

This said, my first choice for core is always Horrors. They provide a magic phase and are equally tough as nettes or letters. The demon list has other units which can provide kills for combat res.

Not sure about plagubearers though. Never used em and most players that ran one are retiring their walls of Nurgle without finding out how they do. They might just sneak in and push the nettes to the bottom of the pile.

Oseru
23-08-2010, 14:45
The problem with this analysis is that first, bloodletters are the best core troop. Plus hatred really helps them because they have only one attack.

Furthermore, getting a herald with an armor save makes him a lot more survivable than the rest of the 'letters. A 3+ is very nice in combo with your 5++.

That is a very survivable character, i don't disagree. But......

I just hate watching troops get steadfast for multiple rounds when they would have likely broken without that bonus. I prefer the ranks to characters when we have such effective rank and file, especially against horde units.

BTW:
Lord Inquisitor, props to you for pointing out ASF working with equal or higher initiative. I completely missed that....

ChrisIronBrow
23-08-2010, 15:11
This said, my first choice for core is always Horrors. They provide a magic phase and are equally tough as nettes or letters. The demon list has other units which can provide kills for combat res.


That's the same conclusion I'm reaching. Bloodletters can put out a bit more close combat damage, but in my opinion our special and rare choices can put out more damage.. So it seems the use for infantry in our list should be to get as many wounds-bodies-resilence on the table as possible, while also supporting our "killy" units.

As such I think a big Horror bunker with a MoS HoT (life) is ideal. Especially since the Changling actually can cause some combat damage.

In 2k probably take 40 horrors with full command-Banner of sorcery.

It depends though. a 10 unit of Letters while frail, puts out 10 Killing blow attacks for 120 pts... That seems like a good answer to high armor -regen units like trolls.

Although I think the Interesting thing to see, is if we go with plaugebearers with the reroll wound banner, and use that as a bunker for all of our special characters since they can join other units.

So, epidemus, Skulltaker, Giving each of them rerolls on wounds sounds... good... Plus a herald in the unit to take away ASF, and Give ASL... Tasty way to kill anything it touches.

Venkh
23-08-2010, 16:33
As such I think a big Horror bunker with a MoS HoT (life) is ideal. Especially since the Changling actually can cause some combat damage.

In 2k probably take 40 horrors with full command-Banner of sorcery.

That is basically the core of my army.

The next core unit I take is a big block of 30 bloodletters with herald.

After that core = Daemonettes. I dont have any Plaguebearers.

I have some nurglings in the Post. Im going to be taking them instead of Furies from now on. I have found myself not wanting to charge ANYTHING with them recently. Just not hitty enough and too prone to popping.

Killjoy00
23-08-2010, 16:34
That is a very survivable character, i don't disagree. But......

I just hate watching troops get steadfast for multiple rounds when they would have likely broken without that bonus. I prefer the ranks to characters when we have such effective rank and file, especially against horde units.

BTW:
Lord Inquisitor, props to you for pointing out ASF working with equal or higher initiative. I completely missed that....

I find the best answer to steadfast is killing more people. If your 'letter units are large enough, those "8 extra" aren't really providing more attacks. The herald is going to be giving you a few more kills off of hatred and more kills off his extra 2 attacks, str and ws.

Plus the Khorne Herald is by far the best choice for your BSB. Which you should be taking (giving those steadfast units -2 leadership helps make them break even when stubborn).

ChrisIronBrow
23-08-2010, 23:25
so, shameless bump, but I'd love opinions on my new DoC list at 1250 for a league I'm in. here it is.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272740

I'm at the bottom of the league so any help is appreciated. :P

I have to agree that Killing more is imo the best way of breaking steadfast. So it seems to take the killiest units possible, and whatever support units can help them survive.


I know their has been some discussion on it already, but what do we all think of the Blue Scribes now? I'm trying to figure if it's worth including them in lower games to help get a few power dice for my Herald with MoS, or maybe just go for another herald.

Hashulaman
24-08-2010, 00:02
KB is practically uselss unless you face off against alot of units with regen or armor saves of 4+ or better. The average armor save is 5, S5 nerfs that by virtue of armor save modifier. Bloodletters are still vicious in close combat, but I still think regeneration beats Killing blow. Id switch from plaguebearers to bloodletters but Im not running hordes of horrors, unless I intend to augment the hell out of them and actually make them worth something in combat.

Dreadgrass
24-08-2010, 00:10
I don't get why all the Plague Bearer Hate?

They have the 2nd best strength value of our core troops, they have the best Toughness (and are the ONLY core choice with Toughness 4). The only problems they have are low Initiative and mediocre WS...

Que Lore of Light buffs! One gives WS/I 10, the other ASF and +1 A.... so both get over the lack of speed, one makes hitting more likely, the other increases the number of attacks (and thus, the number of potential hits) and if you get both off on the same unit...

All in all, I think Plague Bearers are right up there As one of the best options. Especially if your looking for a large unit without heralds, and if your looking at magically buffed units they gain a lot from almost any buff out there!

Venkh
24-08-2010, 00:31
KB is practically uselss unless you face off against alot of units with regen or armor saves of 4+ or better.

I see quite a bit of that about in WoC, Lizzies, Brets, Dwarfs. It also comes in handy for killing off enemy characters who normally have a decent armour save. All in all I think its marginal till you find yourself in horde formation looking at putting 9 KB attacks on the enemy general :)

On plagubearers. The loss of the double save and the importance of the I stat hurt them quite a bit. All armies can now have flaming attacks too and will usually have at least 1 flaming unit in an all comers list.

Hard for me to say whether they are any good given that I dont own any though.

dimetri1
24-08-2010, 00:55
I don't get why all the Plague Bearer Hate?

They have the 2nd best strength value of our core troops, they have the best Toughness (and are the ONLY core choice with Toughness 4). The only problems they have are low Initiative and mediocre WS...

Que Lore of Light buffs! One gives WS/I 10, the other ASF and +1 A.... so both get over the lack of speed, one makes hitting more likely, the other increases the number of attacks (and thus, the number of potential hits) and if you get both off on the same unit...

All in all, I think Plague Bearers are right up there As one of the best options. Especially if your looking for a large unit without heralds, and if your looking at magically buffed units they gain a lot from almost any buff out there!




I build my lists with every scenario in mind. So I always include 1 block of Nurgle.

Killjoy00
24-08-2010, 04:30
I presume you are talking about the watchtower scenario? I found that 20 bloodletters or daemonettes do fine, steadfast and a lot of dangerous attacks coming out of the 'tower. :)

As for Dreadgrass' comment - I much prefer to take Lore of Life, which is the better overall lore, and pump the toughness of my 'letters... rather than take a less-good lore and pump up my 'bearers WS, I and attacks.

Dreadgrass
24-08-2010, 04:46
Life is good (hence I have 2 Tzeentch heralds in every list ;) ) But I think for Daemons Light is every bit as good.

Pha's Protection gives a huge boost to anti-shooting to all units within 12"

WS/ I 10 means theres a good chance most opponents will be hitting on 5's and you'll be striking first

The damaging spells are decent

The Net is awesome

ASF and +1 A is gold anywhere, but added to slaanesh troops (those who don't have it already) or even Letters/ Plague Bearers/ Fleshounds or the Thirster can make a whole lot of trouble.

Also, who wouldn't want to use Life on Nurgle troops? Re-raising Bearers? A T8/10 Great Unclean one? T6/8 Bearers? All sounds good to me! ;)

Hashulaman
24-08-2010, 07:39
I see quite a bit of that about in WoC, Lizzies, Brets, Dwarfs. It also comes in handy for killing off enemy characters who normally have a decent armour save. All in all I think its marginal till you find yourself in horde formation looking at putting 9 KB attacks on the enemy general :)

On plagubearers. The loss of the double save and the importance of the I stat hurt them quite a bit. All armies can now have flaming attacks too and will usually have at least 1 flaming unit in an all comers list.

Hard for me to say whether they are any good given that I dont own any though.

Meh, The majority of players here are elves all 3 kinds and Empire so I see little use for killing blow.

cookiescrumble
24-08-2010, 11:42
Does anyone have any experience of running a pure Khorne army in 8th Edition?

Looking at running this list at 2400pts for a Tournament in October.

Bloodthirster of Khorne
Obsidian Armour
Immortal Fury
Firestorm Blade

550

Herald of Khorne
Armour of Khorne
BSB

140

Herald of Khorne
Armour of Khorne

115

Herald of Khorne
Armour of Khorne
Juggernaught

165

24 Bloodletters
Full Command

318

25 Bloodletters
Full Command

330

10 Bloodletters
Standard Bearer

132

5 Flesh Hounds 175

5 Flesh Hounds 175

3 Bloodcrushers
Standard Bearer
Musician

300

That list is 2400 exactly.

Venkh
24-08-2010, 12:29
Critically, I think it lacks magic defence and doesnt have the tools to mage hunt. It can do nothing at range and will find itself being severely messed with by armies with units that can flee or angle to take a charge. Delaying melee for one or two turns allows for shooting and magic to take its toll.

You have 2 cannon targets of whom the thirster is the most obvious. I would not want to take him on in CC so he would be the focus of my attention! Obviously look out for Dragon princes when using him. He wont be hurting them at all. Nor anything else immune to flaming attacks.
I would drop the Firestorm blade for all comers.

The Jugger Herald gets hit if I get the chance. He lacks a LOS option so he can be picked out by the usual stuff.

I reckon I could neutralise one of the bloodletter units with magic and shooting and deal with the other with my own combat units.

That leaves the Fleshies which are good units but pose much less of a threat than they used to.

I note that you have no BSB so arent planning to take any instability tests!

I admire your confidence! I think that this would be an interesting list to play against but generalship aside, not really intimidating apart from the Thirster.

cookiescrumble
24-08-2010, 12:48
I have a battle standard in the list, upgraded one of the Heralds to carry one.

I know that this list is not the best daemon build but wanted a pure Khorne force, will be a challenge to use and some serious flaws but should be able to take on any combat orientated armies.

Venkh
24-08-2010, 13:08
Sorry missed the BSB

Totally agree, this will outfight most combat orientated lists. I think this is an intersting challenge to play and face.

I am still in the optimising phase myself, once Im out of it I might try something like this myself. I can do mono Slaanesh but without using the Ld nerfing stuff I dont see how it is viable.

Killjoy00
24-08-2010, 14:48
Not a big fan of the all khorne list, but at least take Standard of Sundering on your BSB for some extra magic defense.

ChrisIronBrow
24-08-2010, 16:34
Not a big fan of the all khorne list, but at least take Standard of Sundering on your BSB for some extra magic defense.

Yeah, I agree, if you can find the points Standard of Sundering will more than make back it's points for you by protecting your army, and letting those Letters get to combat.

Lord Inquisitor
24-08-2010, 17:13
I am still in the optimising phase myself, once Im out of it I might try something like this myself. I can do mono Slaanesh but without using the Ld nerfing stuff I dont see how it is viable.

Slaanesh without the Ld bomb is viable, but not as competitive.


Keeper is a beast. Re-roll missed hits? Yes please!
Daemonettes are an excellent core. Slightly less killy than bloodletters, but faster and strike first, pretty much a wash.
Seekers are fragile, but so fast. Small units can hunt war machines, large units with a herald are pretty mean in combat.
Fiends are powerhouses.


It's viable without the Ld bomb, although much of the magic and gifts that rely on Ld tests aren't worth it without the Ld reduction ability. Need to rely on heralds with etherblades and the keeper to deal with heavy armour, but it works.

Venkh
24-08-2010, 19:24
Daemonettes are an excellent core. Slightly less killy than bloodletters, but faster and strike first, pretty much a wash.

Totally agree on all point except this one. Daemonettes seem like the worst core unit right now. Unless enhanced by magic they struggle to wound and cant take the hits themselves. Most enhancements you could put on a daemonette would equally boost any of the other demon core.

The banners and Herald powers are decent but I always find that i have more success with Horrors or Letters in their respective fields.

Plaguebearers got the biggest nerf but although I havent used them they still seem pretty viable especially with the Herlad palanquin counting as infantry

Lord Inquisitor
24-08-2010, 20:24
Horrors have magic and a 4+ ward. But otherwise they're hands down the worst in combat, with only 1 attack, WS3, S3, T3. They're the only way to get a Level 4 wizard at low points, but they're so expensive I really don't see what anyone wants them for.

Plaguebearers are indeed good these days. Ward or Regen hurt them (effectively giving them the same 4+ save as Horrors with their Locus) but they gained a great deal from step up and two ranks. Now they can really throw out those poisoned attacks. Very useful against monsters and the like.

Both of the above are only M4, with crappy initiative. They strike last, and are vulnerable to certain spells (Plaguebearers should fear the purple sun!)

Bloodletters have come into their own and deal the most damage, particularly against high toughness opponents with their S5 and killing blow. Better movement, better initative plus hatred - very reliable.

Daemonettes have the most attacks, good WS, best Initiative with ASF re-rolls, best movement. Just low strength.

For comparison of actual combat damage, assuming 5x2 attacking, below are the average wounds for three sample targets in the first round of combat. Each assumes a Locus.

Attacking Daemon -- Hor / Pla / Blo / Dae
Goblin spear/shield: 2.8 / 4.4 / 7.4 / 6.7
Greatswords: ........ 1.3 / 2.6 / 6.4 / 4.4
Chaos Warriors...... 0.8 / 2.2 / 4.4 / 2.5

Note that this is for the first round, Bloodletter damages reduce to 5.6 against goblins, 4.8 against Greatswords and 2.9 against Chaos Warriors after they lose hatred in the second round.

Of course, return attacks are there, assuming a 5x2 (5x3 for gobbos) return attacks (warriors using halberds):
Against: Daemon -- Hor / Pla / Blo / Dae
Goblin spear/shield: 1.9 / 1.3 / 1.7 / 1.7
Greatswords: ........ 2.8 / 2.2 / 2.8 / 2.8
Chaos Warriors...... 4.2 / 3.3 / 4.2 / 4.2

Overall the three combat lesser daemons do quite equivalently. Bloodletters I think are top, although they don't have the resilience of the bearers or the speed of the nettes. Bloodletters are clearly the choice for heavy armour, but otherwise the plaguebearers or daemonettes do pretty equivalently to the bloodletters. The daemonettes do better especially in the second round against anything T3 or less, the plaguebearers are great for high toughness opponents thanks to their poison. As a combat unit, the horrors suck pretty badly, so make sure you get the most out of their magic.

So yeah, Bloodletters might be top of the hill but daemonettes are very close behind and that extra point of movement might prove to be critical...

Oseru
24-08-2010, 20:37
Love the math break down:D

It's nice to have some hard fact to base decisions on.

Venkh
24-08-2010, 21:15
Yeah, brillant beakdown, much better than the one i did on the previous page.

The extra point of movement does make a difference or rather it has in a couple of games I have played with my nettes.

The other issue with the Daemonettes is the vulnerability of the Herald. I give mine Etherblades and try and get her in a challenge if i can just to keep her alive.

Once I have finished my all comers Ill try out the all Slaanesh list. It sounds like a lot of fun.

cookiescrumble
25-08-2010, 06:40
Well, I've just bitten the bullet and ordered the army! I have about 8 weeks to play test and tweak the list. I'll let you know how I get on with it :)

Hashulaman
25-08-2010, 07:52
lol, for some reason mathhamer does not work with me. It seems that the dice intentionally try to defy mathhamer.

cookiescrumble
26-08-2010, 09:07
I think you guys are right. That standard would be really useful. I'm thinking of dropping the command on the Bloodcrushers and then 2 bloodletters which will give me 54 points for the Standard of Sundering on the BSB. Any thoughts on this? Where would you guys find the points from?

Demrak
26-08-2010, 10:31
Any advice to a newbie player of Daemons.. face ork\gobo mostly and how do you deal with mass lobbers and spear chuckers ?.. with them so cheap you can field a silly amount of them with 25% of your points.. The gobo player tools up with a very good amount of anti magic getting silly amounts of bonuses to dispel dice that make magic a non starter as I found out yesterday...

LordoftheBrassThrone
26-08-2010, 10:59
I'm also trying an almost all Khorne list, except I'm trying to convert a flying herald of Tzeentch from a bloodletter and a flamer.

Skulltaker

HoT-winged horror and master of sorcery

35 bloodletters- full command and icon of endless war

5 flesh hounds- +karanak

4 boodcrushers

so the herald chooses the lore of life, and uses flesh to stone on the bloodletters. He then flies round all battle dodging wizard hunters, and the T5/7 letters with skulltaker crack everything open, the lore attribute and regrowth reviving karanak and skulltaker if necessary.

not added up the points exactly but it fits roughly into 1250

Storak
26-08-2010, 12:14
Attacking Daemon -- Hor / Pla / Blo / Dae
Goblin spear/shield: 2.8 / 4.4 / 7.4 / 6.7
Greatswords: ........ 1.3 / 2.6 / 6.4 / 4.4
Chaos Warriors...... 0.8 / 2.2 / 4.4 / 2.5



thanks for the math!

as you factor in the locus, it would be great to add the damage by the heralds. just in case you don t know what to do with your spare time! thanks again in advance!

narrativium
26-08-2010, 12:28
Horrors have magic and a 4+ ward. But otherwise they're hands down the worst in combat, with only 1 attack, WS3, S3, T3. They're the only way to get a Level 4 wizard at low points, but they're so expensive I really don't see what anyone wants them for. 4+ ward with a Herald. If you opt for a Master of Sorcery and the right lore, the Horror profile can improve in scary ways. Also, so long as they remain level 2, they've got a rather nasty area-effect spell which can hurt the unit they're in base contact with.

As to what you want them for: nasty spells and survivability. It'll take a while to eat through them all, if you take enough of them to start with.

ChrisIronBrow
26-08-2010, 12:37
4+ ward with a Herald. If you opt for a Master of Sorcery and the right lore, the Horror profile can improve in scary ways. Also, so long as they remain level 2, they've got a rather nasty area-effect spell which can hurt the unit they're in base contact with.

As to what you want them for: nasty spells and survivability. It'll take a while to eat through them all, if you take enough of them to start with.

Yeah, that's what I'm seeing. I got a 1500 pt game in tonight, and my 27 horrors with Herald were super resilient. They lasted through multiple direct comet hits etc..

There basicly Plaugebearers with a ranged attack. Also a few times the +3 dispel instead of 2 really saved me.


That being said, I'm learning that you cannot rely on magic. I played against empire tonight, and with 2 warrior priests and Luthor huss He had +4 Dispel dice, and had plenty of points to drop in a LVL 4.

PeG
26-08-2010, 14:13
Any advice to a newbie player of Daemons.. face ork\gobo mostly and how do you deal with mass lobbers and spear chuckers ?.. with them so cheap you can field a silly amount of them with 25% of your points.. The gobo player tools up with a very good amount of anti magic getting silly amounts of bonuses to dispel dice that make magic a non starter as I found out yesterday...

So far I havent had a problem with spear chuckas due to that they usually doesnt hit much, no bonus for hitting large targets, rolling on BS usually means 6+ to hit anything and when they actually do hit they usually dont do to much damage.

Templates on the other hand does hurt and especially if you bring blocks of t3 models to the table (nettes and letters). OnG has a very reliable version since they can compensate for scattering.

Best way of dealing with them depends on the rest of his army. I usually bring a couple of min sized, cheap flyers (I know they are not great and doesnt count for core) that are good for activiting possible fanatics as early as possible in the game. They are also decent at taking out goblin warmachines.

As many flamers as possible is good against everyone (maybe not if you want to be friendly but in 8th it is less of a problem).

Casters with lore of life to buff and heal your own units will usually not trigger all maigc defence since you are not attacking enemy units although goblins have some tricks here as well.


Killing enemy characters, always important but especially important against low LD armies. Take out the BSB and possibly the general and you will see them running away a lot more.

-LD banner potentially in combination with the masque works also in 8th. There is a big difference of being steadfast at LD7-8 or at LD 3-5 and you shouldnt really have any problems with winning combats.

Anardakil
26-08-2010, 15:01
The doom diver isnt really a template though :) but yeah theyre still scary, rock lobbers too.

CharlyGordon
26-08-2010, 15:16
Against Elves.

I have had a couple of games against High Elves in recent weeks. Although I wouldn’t say I’ve played enough to know for sure, the fiends and Deamonettes canceling out the rerolls on the elves ASF has made a big difference. The lore of beast buffs turned them and the herald into absolute killers.

The bloodletter herald is very good against taking out elf characters (especially Wizards) but the unit he’s in has only really severed as a character delivery unit against elves. Too many get cut down and don’t get enough attacks back to grind well.

Soul of Iron
27-08-2010, 15:51
LI: Thanks for posting that. I love when people post data to support their statements. People speculate WAY to much on this site. It's maddening sometimes.

I picked up some 'Netts just the other day. My only fear is the Herald is more attractive to kill due to the bonus she grants.

ChrisIronBrow
27-08-2010, 19:36
I picked up some 'Netts just the other day. My only fear is the Herald is more attractive to kill due to the bonus she grants.

Yeah, I'm finding my Heralds have huge targets on them. I think you can get some protection by challenging, or by having a champion to accept challenges, and by maximizing damage, with Aetherblade or Siren Song to choose fights. I always give Torment blade as well for the extra attack. The good news is that a Herald of Slannesh with torment blade is 95 points, without slots you can double them up in units of Daemonettes fairly easily, causing resilience and offense to go up. ASF honestly causes daemonettes to put out a lot of damage. Unfortunatley they can't really handle elite troops with high toughness-armor-regen-ward.

So far The best "horde" unit I've run is Daemonette's x40 with full command (banner of Ectasy) and double Heralds. They died alot, but asf caused them to put out good damage for every round of the fight. That one unit held and ground down 3 High elf units (2x spears, 1x phoenix guard) Taking like 28 casualties, but finishing off the elves.

ChrisIronBrow
27-08-2010, 19:42
Any advice to a newbie player of Daemons.. face ork\gobo mostly and how do you deal with mass lobbers and spear chuckers ?.. with them so cheap you can field a silly amount of them with 25% of your points.. The gobo player tools up with a very good amount of anti magic getting silly amounts of bonuses to dispel dice that make magic a non starter as I found out yesterday...

I think the key is Multiple small units of war machine hunters. units of 1 fiend of slanessh, units of 1 Blood crusher, Units of 3x flamers. these are all fast moving, hard hitting units that are cheap and force your opponent to shoot at them, or lose his warmachines on turn 2.

Soul of Iron
27-08-2010, 19:46
It will be some time before I add them to my army. I'm going to experiment with a full Tzeentch force just to see how they do. That and I have it all painted.

Torment Blade grants an extra attack?

w3rm
27-08-2010, 20:48
I think so. Its a hand weapon and the herald already gets a hand weapon.

Lord Inquisitor
27-08-2010, 21:08
Urgh. This is a can of worms. YES it technically leaves a herald or keeper with two hand weapons, but it seems clear that this wasn't intended (5 points!) and the 8th ed rules leave this rather dodgy (as you can't gain the additional hand weapon bonus if using a magical hand weapon - the daemon hand weapons certainly are magical attacks, bit of a grey area as to whether they count as magical hand weapons or not).

Best assume they don't provide the extra hand weapon bonus, if you want my advice. I for one have never even attempted to argue the extra attack, even at tournaments. It's pretty obviously not intended to give +1 attack and on a Keeper it's positively rude.

ChrisIronBrow
27-08-2010, 21:55
I think so. Its a hand weapon and the herald already gets a hand weapon.

Yeah, there are some players out there who might argue with you over it, but the rules as written are clear that it grants an extra attack. The entire argument against it is that they don't think it was intended to do so because it's inexpensive.

If it said "great weapon" instead no one would try to argue it didn't grant +2 str, and ASL.

druchii
27-08-2010, 22:15
So I'm making movement trays.

I've got two units of 26 bloodletters in my army. Each includes a herald on a jugger (one has armor of khorne, and firestorm blade, the other obsidian armor and the icon of -2 ld).

What formation should I run them? 5x6 or 6x5. The biggest thing I'm concerned with is having MORE ranks than my opponent so they're no longer stubborn, and in this case the 5x6 seems very appealing to me (as I'm only losing two attacks, to essentially gain more ranks). I'm not overly worried about BLs losing combat to somethihg, so the 6x5 seems almost wasteful to me.

But I figured I'd ask you guys.

Thanks!
d

Lord Inquisitor
27-08-2010, 22:40
The entire argument against it is that they don't think it was intended to do so because it's inexpensive.
Under 8th ed rules, you can only get the extra hand weapon bonus if you aren't using a "magical hand weapon." While it's still a grey area in rules terms it isn't clear-cut anymore that it is 100% legal as the torment blade is certainly a hand weapon that provides magical attacks. It's always been a clear easter egg, and not to be encouraged (or at least clear it with your opponent before the game).


What formation should I run them? 5x6 or 6x5. The biggest thing I'm concerned with is having MORE ranks than my opponent so they're no longer stubborn, and in this case the 5x6 seems very appealing to me (as I'm only losing two attacks, to essentially gain more ranks). I'm not overly worried about BLs losing combat to somethihg, so the 6x5 seems almost wasteful to me.
Five ranks deep is more than enough, I would have thought - indeed, with a unit that big you should probably be thinking about 10x3 to maximise damage output, only reforming to deeper for steadfast breaking against certain enemies.

However, as far as a 5x6 or 6x5 formation ... does it matter? The tray is the same size, you could just turn it around by 90 degrees... ;)

druchii
27-08-2010, 22:59
[COLOR="magenta"]Five ranks deep is more than enough, I would have thought - indeed, with a unit that big you should probably be thinking about 10x3 to maximise damage output, only reforming to deeper for steadfast breaking against certain enemies.

However, as far as a 5x6 or 6x5 formation ... does it matter? The tray is the same size, you could just turn it around by 90 degrees... ;)

Actually as soon as I posted that, I looked at my modular tray and was like DOH! But really I was asking more for tactical reasons (I've got a stack of SIX unopened GW modular tray boxes).

10x3 seems like a terrible idea to me. Most people will be running 5xwhatever blocks (or 6xwhatever with killy stuff on 25mms) so the 10 is way overkill. From playing two to three games a week, since the new rules came into existence, I've noticed that the entire game is about steadfast, and breaking that in your opponent.

Horde units make me laugh because they're on the whole pretty terrible, and I'm not sure why I'd ever do it with demons.

Thanks though!

d

Lord Inquisitor
27-08-2010, 23:18
With hard-hitting infantry like Bloodletters, horde can work well. Even if you only get 6 models in contact, 18 Bloodletters attacking can make quite a mess. 50% more damage!

It's situational, but with a musician you can reform quickly. Against any foe that you don't hope to match in ranks (e.g. 5x10 formation), or that is low on ranks but heavy one combat power (e.g. chaos warriors or monsters), then horde formation is definitely the way to go.

Hashulaman
27-08-2010, 23:24
What if you already have magical attacks? Could you get an extra attack if you take another weapon that also granted magical attacsks? We also have to take into consideration these are Daemonic gifts and do not count as magic itmes, only the standards do now.

ChrisIronBrow
27-08-2010, 23:37
Under 8th ed rules, you can only get the extra hand weapon bonus if you aren't using a "magical hand weapon." While it's still a grey area in rules terms it isn't clear-cut anymore that it is 100% legal as the torment blade is certainly a hand weapon that provides magical attacks. It's always been a clear easter egg, and not to be encouraged (or at least clear it with your opponent before the game).


So, I don't want to be insulting, but that's just not true.

Torment blade is a "Daemonic Gift" and a "hand Weapon", a Daemon has "magical attacks" because of the "daemonic" rule, not because of the weapon. In fact it's clearly explained that Torment Blade is not a "magic" weapon. Some Daemonic gifts-Icons are magical items, because they specify that they are. It's like trying to claim that The VC bloodline power that gives a great weapon, gives a "magical" great weapon.

Furthermore, if what you claim is true, then it would also have to apply to the "Flaming Sword of Rhuin" since that gives a unit Magical flaming attacks. If it were used on a unit with Extra Hand weapons, then by your reasoning it would prevent them from granting "extra attack".

Lord Inquisitor
28-08-2010, 00:00
I said it was a grey area. But you're saying that the torment blade, a blade made out of magic, wielded by a magical being that inflicts magical attacks with the hand weapon that is itself a gift, is not a "magical close combat weapon"... that's pushing things. They're not "magic items" per se but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not magical.

Yes, I understand the implications it would have for the flaming sword, but nevertheless, it's getting very dodgy to say that a hand weapon that inflicts magical attacks is not a magical hand weapon. I understand the logic, but it's really splitting hairs on the definition of a magical hand weapon. Under 7th ed, yeah, this little gimmick worked. Under 8th, I'm not convinced as there is no definition of what a magical weapon constitutes. You can certainly argue it, the RAW works under your interpretation, but it's getting more and more like a desperate attempt to gain an unfair advantage.

It's a prime example of ruleslawyering. You claim that it grants an extra attack, despite being costed about 10-20 points too little for this ability, despite the fact that it doesn't state "additional" hand weapon like 99% of additional hand weapons out there, that it doesn't count as a magical hand weapon because it's just a mundane weapon with magical properties due to being a gift and being wielded by a beast with magical attacks... well, after all that, you want to use it as an extra combat weapon for a Keeper? Hey go ahead. I wouldn't, and I regard it as exploiting a rules loophole. Now, not to derail this thread any more, that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Killjoy00
28-08-2010, 01:23
I think it is pretty clear that it is not a magical weapon. For instance, you can give a 'Thirster the axe and the blade. They aren't magical weapons - they are gifts. You can also give multiple people the torment blade - something you can't do with a magical weapon. It can't be destroyed by items that destroy magical weapons. It isn't turned off by Obsidian armor. It is not a magical weapon.

I don't deny that it is a bit of a loophole and I would expect (hope) it to be faq'ed. But in no way is it a magical weapon.

ChrisIronBrow
28-08-2010, 03:26
It's a prime example of ruleslawyering. You claim that it grants an extra attack, despite being costed about 10-20 points too little for this ability, despite the fact that it doesn't state "additional" hand weapon like 99% of additional hand weapons out there, that it doesn't count as a magical hand weapon because it's just a mundane weapon with magical properties due to being a gift and being wielded by a beast with magical attacks... well, after all that, you want to use it as an extra combat weapon for a Keeper? Hey go ahead. I wouldn't, and I regard it as exploiting a rules loophole. Now, not to derail this thread any more, that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

So, since this is a tactics Forum I'll also let this go, since I've said my piece. However, It honestly sounds to me like your the one making a "rules lawyer" argument. Since the blade is pretty clearly a Hand weapon, and according to the rules hand weapon + Hand Weapon= extra attack.

Either way, It's not personal.

Back to Tactics!

I've been thinking that Daemonettes are most effective for their role of Providing a LoS roll to the Siren song Herald. The more I think about it Siren Song gives us the tools to deal with things that we struggle with.

I think I'm going to run 2x 20 with Siren Herald next game and see what happens.

Killjoy00
28-08-2010, 04:31
What things do you like using Siren Song on?

Lord Inquisitor
28-08-2010, 04:56
Enemy fliers
Lone characters
Enemy monsters
Units at the limit of their charge so they fail charge and are pinned in place for your flank charge
Enemy missile troops (twofold bonus - they can't shoot and the Siren unit can't be shot)

There's a great multitude of uses for siren song it's really very powerful.

ChrisIronBrow
28-08-2010, 06:39
What things do you like using Siren Song on?

yeah, at first I was leaving it off the Heralds, but every game I've had it it was my MVP.

One trick is march 12", their turn SirenSong, Either they get into combat, or next turn you charge(with the banner preventing flee. At most the enemy gets one turn of shooting at your Daemonettes.

Great on warmachines, characters outside of units, bunker units with weak characters so you can direct attacks against them in combat. And even just for pulling a unit out of position.

Great on Units defending Obstacles, towers, garisoned, etc.

The more I use it, The more I Think it's better than taking a HoT with MoS.

My new 1250 list has 2x HoS with SirenSong and uses Horrors for magic.

Azmodian
28-08-2010, 09:19
This is random, and probably not related to what anyone is talking about at the moment. However I will post it for joy... I just got Daemons, and both fantasy and 40k armybook/codex... I'm also looking forward to the look of my opponent as I set up 10 bloodcrushers, or deep strike 10 behind him for 4k.

Any thoughts? (btw for 40k the unit size is 1-8 (the extra 2 of them are going to be heralds making the unit size to 10))

Killjoy00
28-08-2010, 13:02
Does Siren Song work on warmachines anymore? The BRB specifies that they cannot charge.

And units in a building cannot charge out of it. Would it work on them?

RMacDeezy
28-08-2010, 13:52
i'm gonna say negative on the song vs war machines/buildings. the unit must be able to charge according to the BRB which as you said, states they cannot.

Leth Shyish'phak
28-08-2010, 18:04
So, what do you think: 2 units of 29 Bloodletters each with herald and full command or 1 unit of 59 Bloodletters with 2 heralds and full command?

I can do either, not sure which would be best. Leaning towards one massive unit, as I've seen units of 30 and 40 Bloodletters and I don't think I've ever seen one of them destroyed. Ok, it would be target number 1 for all enemy shooting, but none of the "uberspells" can do that much to them with S5 and I4 and you'll really have to put in a lot of effort to kill 59 Bloodletters to get any points from them.

ChrisIronBrow
28-08-2010, 18:04
i'm gonna say negative on the song vs war machines/buildings. the unit must be able to charge according to the BRB which as you said, states they cannot.

Yeah, I agree. I overlooked the new rules.

Sandals
28-08-2010, 19:11
So, what do you think: 2 units of 29 Bloodletters each with herald and full command or 1 unit of 59 Bloodletters with 2 heralds and full command?

I can do either, not sure which would be best. Leaning towards one massive unit, as I've seen units of 30 and 40 Bloodletters and I don't think I've ever seen one of them destroyed. Ok, it would be target number 1 for all enemy shooting, but none of the "uberspells" can do that much to them with S5 and I4 and you'll really have to put in a lot of effort to kill 59 Bloodletters to get any points from them.

I'm gonna share something you said with you again, Leth.


I've seen units of 30 and 40 Bloodletters and I don't think I've ever seen one of them destroyed.

If units of 30 are rarely getting killed then i'd go with 2 units of 30 rather than 1 unit of 60. that way, they can be in 2 places rather than 1.

ftayl5
29-08-2010, 01:03
I see there's very little Daemon Prince discussion here, is this because they still suck? Because I honestly don't think they do. At 3000+pts I'm obviously gonna take a Thirster (khorne army) but at 2000 or less it's hard to fit one in so I think the daemon prince can make quite a good general at 2000pts, especially with some gifts that make him great in many ways but still cheaper than any greater daemon.

What do you guys think about him?

Xzazzarai
29-08-2010, 01:37
I see there's very little Daemon Prince discussion here, is this because they still suck? Because I honestly don't think they do. At 3000+pts I'm obviously gonna take a Thirster (khorne army) but at 2000 or less it's hard to fit one in so I think the daemon prince can make quite a good general at 2000pts, especially with some gifts that make him great in many ways but still cheaper than any greater daemon.

What do you guys think about him?

So how would you kit him out?

w3rm
29-08-2010, 01:42
I take one for funsises but he really hasnt done crap. I run him lvl 1 with ASF lore of death. He either dies to weak infantry and never kills anything. He's pretty bad.

Hashulaman
29-08-2010, 03:28
I've taken one in a fun game vs VC. He was a WoC one though, but it still was fun watching it tear though undead.

Lord Inquisitor
29-08-2010, 03:46
Daemon princes suck so hard it's not even funny. While they gained thunderstomp, they're still so inferior to any of the GDs for very little less points they're not worth it under any configuration.

Now if they could be upgraded to level 4 and stubborn like the WoC version, then there'd be a place for them, but as it stands - yeah take one for fun games or to give yourself a challenge but not competitive at all.

I think the best configuration if you are going to run one is unnatural swiftness, soul hunger and wings. Strikes first and rerolls hits and wounds against most opponents. Level 2 with one of the rulebook lores.

ftayl5
29-08-2010, 04:01
I think the best configuration if you are going to run one is unnatural swiftness, soul hunger and wings. Strikes first and rerolls hits and wounds against most opponents. Level 2 with one of the rulebook lores.

That's what I usually take except Collar of Khorne instead of wings and not a wizard obviously. They aren't competitive but they aren't that bad.

w3rm
29-08-2010, 19:23
I think the best build is Lvl 2 with Soul Hunger and Many Armed Monstrosity.

skabradisdead
29-08-2010, 21:47
are Bloodthirsters worth taking at 2600 points? Also if I had 50 letters should I run a horde or two units of twenty five?

w3rm
29-08-2010, 23:17
Seems like horde bloodletters are the way to go. And Thirtsters are allways worth taking whenever you can!

druchii
30-08-2010, 00:47
are Bloodthirsters worth taking at 2600 points? Also if I had 50 letters should I run a horde or two units of twenty five?

There's no way I'd run them as a horde. A pair of 25s seems the better way to do it. As a horde they've have 5 ranks, neat. Untill you run into a block of 100 slaves that are stubborn on 10s with rerolls.

That's a great application of points...

Two 25s gives you more of an ability to deal with multiple enemy units, less of a chance to get bogged down in a crummy combat, as well as providing multiple threats to your opponent.

A horde of 50 will destroy certain army builds, but be absolutely butchered by others, having two gives you more options and more versatility.

d

Hashulaman
30-08-2010, 07:54
Good luck taking a Greater Daemon in games you are not legally allowed to take one in because of percentages. Daemon Princes are good in small points games, if you want to just want to spam heralds then, that is a not a good idea in my opinion. You can't make up the difference with just heroes since you can't use that 25% used on lord on extra heroes.

ChrisIronBrow
30-08-2010, 11:16
Good luck taking a Greater Daemon in games you are not legally allowed to take one in because of percentages. Daemon Princes are good in small points games, if you want to just want to spam heralds then, that is a not a good idea in my opinion. You can't make up the difference with just heroes since you can't use that 25% used on lord on extra heroes.

I think the real issue though, is what does the Daemon prince actually provide to the Army? at a base of 300 points that's a unit of 25 Core troops, (letters, horrors,nettes, bearers)

What does the Prince give that makes him better than that? I think the answer is nothing. by the time you make a prince good, your spending 450+ points on him, and you should just take a "bare" greater daemon.

Wade Wilson
30-08-2010, 14:27
In games of 1500-2000 points would you guys recommend a nice big group of heroes/heralds as opposed to spending many points on a Lord with few demonic gifts?
The daemon prince seems rather expensive for what you get as its at least another 75-100 points to buff him out. The Greater Daemons all look nasty even without daemonic gift buffs (particularly the KoS) but at games under 2000 points I have an urge to run some heralds and have larger core units(with the points saved by not having a lord): e.g.
HoT - Wings, MoS (lore of Life), Army General (not sure what is better, wings or a disc o tzeentch? With wings can the HoT 'get look out sir' saves if in proximity of a core unit?)
HoS - Level 1 wizard
HoK - Flaming sword, Armour of khorne, BSB - Great standard of Sundering

the HoS and HoK would be leading units of daemonettes and bloodletters respecivly whilst the HoS would be flying behind them and magicly boosting/respawning units with spells from Lore of Life. Is it wise having a relatively weak HoT as my 'general' in smaller games? He will be a coward and a half by keeping his distance from enemy troops or at least having a core unit between him and them. Just getting started with my Daemon army tbh. Only have around 1000 points worth of models so far.
x1 HoT (converted changeling)
x1 HoS (converted daemonette Aluress)
x1 HoK/Skulltaker
x 20 bloodletters
x 20 daemonettes
x 6 flammers

PeG
30-08-2010, 19:11
I play a lot of games below 2k (and below 1800 you dont get any GD) and usually try to fill my hero points with heralds and scribes, as many flamers as possible, usually as few core as possible (mostly daemonettes so far), and then a mixture of cheap flyers, fiends etc.

Core are mandatory and although I have considered using a daemon prince I have never managed to convince myself that he is worth dropping something else for.

Lord Inquisitor
30-08-2010, 19:15
They aren't competitive but they aren't that bad.

They're pretty awful. I mean, with that config, I'm paying about 450 points ... in which case (as noted above) they're much worse than any of the Greater Daemons are naked.

However, even on their own merits, they're pretty appalling. Why would you take one? They'll give up 550 victory points when they die. What role do they have? Flying magic user? I'd rather take a Tzeentch herald with master of sorcery and wings. Combat unit? They've a few decent attacks but for that cost I can buy a unit of 8 fiends. I've been running a unit of 8 fiends for the ard boyz and this unit can front-charge virtually anything and rip through them like they were paper. 8 fiends in 4x2 config have 28 S4 armour piercing attacks at I6, plus a rank. General's Leadership - they're L8! :cries: You might as well have a herald who at least has the protection offered by a unit.

Seriously, Daemon Princes are such a horrific victory points liability that I think I would be more successful running an army that simply lacked 450 points and didn't take the Prince, because that meant that the opponent is denied those easy victory points. And that's the sign of a truly bad unit. If they had Ld9, Stubborn, options for a Level 4 or just cost 100-150 points less then there'd be a reason to take one. They really are that bad. Now, there's plenty of reason to take a "bad" unit for friendly games, but let's not give the poor daemon prince any real credit - for the time being, my daemon princes are sitting firmly on round bases... ;)

ChrisIronBrow
30-08-2010, 21:12
They're pretty awful. I mean, with that config, I'm paying about 450 points ... in which case (as noted above) they're much worse than any of the Greater Daemons are naked.

However, even on their own merits, they're pretty appalling. Why would you take one? They'll give up 550 victory points when they die. What role do they have? Flying magic user? I'd rather take a Tzeentch herald with master of sorcery and wings. Combat unit? They've a few decent attacks but for that cost I can buy a unit of 8 fiends. I've been running a unit of 8 fiends for the ard boyz and this unit can front-charge virtually anything and rip through them like they were paper. 8 fiends in 4x2 config have 28 S4 armour piercing attacks at I6, plus a rank. General's Leadership - they're L8! :cries: You might as well have a herald who at least has the protection offered by a unit.

Seriously, Daemon Princes are such a horrific victory points liability that I think I would be more successful running an army that simply lacked 450 points and didn't take the Prince, because that meant that the opponent is denied those easy victory points. And that's the sign of a truly bad unit. If they had Ld9, Stubborn, options for a Level 4 or just cost 100-150 points less then there'd be a reason to take one. They really are that bad. Now, there's plenty of reason to take a "bad" unit for friendly games, but let's not give the poor daemon prince any real credit - for the time being, my daemon princes are sitting firmly on round bases... ;)

To be honest, I think the only thing the Daemon prince needs to make it a viable choice(not optimal, but viable) would be if it was considered infantry instead of a Monster. Joining units would give him the versatility that the army is lacking in it's characters.

druchii
30-08-2010, 21:14
To be honest, I think the only thing the Daemon prince needs to make it a viable choice(not optimal, but viable) would be if it was considered infantry instead of a Monster. Joining units would give him the versatility that the army is lacking in it's characters.

Or, they could, yanno, make them like 200something points.

Which they, by all rights, should be anyway.

When I first looked at the demon book, years ago, and noted the price of the DP and his stats, I just chuckled, and moved on. I haven't looked at them since. I think I just gloss over their existence whenever I look at my book.

d

ftayl5
31-08-2010, 05:18
They're pretty awful. I mean, with that config, I'm paying about 450 points ... in which case (as noted above) they're much worse than any of the Greater Daemons are naked.

However, even on their own merits, they're pretty appalling. Why would you take one? They'll give up 550 victory points when they die. What role do they have? Flying magic user? I'd rather take a Tzeentch herald with master of sorcery and wings. Combat unit? They've a few decent attacks but for that cost I can buy a unit of 8 fiends. I've been running a unit of 8 fiends for the ard boyz and this unit can front-charge virtually anything and rip through them like they were paper. 8 fiends in 4x2 config have 28 S4 armour piercing attacks at I6, plus a rank. General's Leadership - they're L8! :cries: You might as well have a herald who at least has the protection offered by a unit.

Seriously, Daemon Princes are such a horrific victory points liability that I think I would be more successful running an army that simply lacked 450 points and didn't take the Prince, because that meant that the opponent is denied those easy victory points. And that's the sign of a truly bad unit. If they had Ld9, Stubborn, options for a Level 4 or just cost 100-150 points less then there'd be a reason to take one. They really are that bad. Now, there's plenty of reason to take a "bad" unit for friendly games, but let's not give the poor daemon prince any real credit - for the time being, my daemon princes are sitting firmly on round bases... ;)

Well this is the exact attitude that makes them good. When I deploy him the reaction is generally 'do you intend to win?' or 'ha.' Since everyone thinks they suck (which they do) they underestimate them and then when I charge his _____ with _____ on turn 2 and kill him with ease, now whos laughing?

However, I will never take a Daemon Prince if he totals more than 450pts, as as you said, a naked Greater daemon is better, and when percentages allow, I will always take a Greater Daemon over a prince.

I just like the new model and have very few herald models since there's only 1 model for each god, and most of them are actually named characters.

druchii
31-08-2010, 06:40
I just like the new model and have very few herald models since there's only 1 model for each god, and most of them are actually named characters.

Remember the heralds were meant to be made out of the plastic kits.

All the examples of the heralds in the books are made with the specifically neat looking bits out of the plastic boxes.

That, or I use older edition models to represent my heralds.

And really, there shouldn't ever be more than one or two heralds of a single god in a list..since you don't really have room for all that many...

d

ftayl5
31-08-2010, 07:59
And really, there shouldn't ever be more than one or two heralds of a single god in a list..since you don't really have room for all that many...

d

Except when you run a mono-god list *raises hand*

druchii
31-08-2010, 19:55
Except when you run a mono-god list *raises hand*

Well I run a predominantly Khorne list and there just aren't enough points to get you more than two. In 2k you're only allowed up to 500pts, and two heralds on Juggers with basic gear run you about 400ish.

I guess you could get a naked herald..but..why?

d

Lord Inquisitor
31-08-2010, 21:12
Well this is the exact attitude that makes them good. When I deploy him the reaction is generally 'do you intend to win?' or 'ha.' Since everyone thinks they suck (which they do) they underestimate them and then when I charge his _____ with _____ on turn 2 and kill him with ease, now whos laughing?
See, I like this attitude. I'm a huge fan of under-appreciated units. And yeah, I guess you can take a complacent enemy off-guard with one (charging one with ASF, soul hunger and wings into the front of a unit, you are very likely to win combat.) The problem is that the only real edge you have is a complacent enemy, as the Daemon Prince can't do anything a Greater Daemon can't do, and if the opponent responds to the Daemon Prince in the same way they would deal with any other (non-SC) Lord choice in the book, it'll work just as well if not better as the Daemon Prince is easier to kill. There's no "I've never seen one of those in play, what do I do against it" or "I didn't know you could use them like that!" sort of response that you might get with many other under-used units in the game.

That said, my favourite example is compare a Daemon Prince with an Ogre Tyrant, bearing in mind how mediocre the Ogre list is.

Daemon Prince
+2M, +2WS, +3I
Daemonic, Monster (i.e. thunderstomp), can be a magic user

Tyrant
+4BS, +1W, +1Ld
Monstrous Infantry (stomp, can join units & get Look Out Sir), Bull Charge, 100 point magic item allowance, has mundane armour and equipment

Now, if you're asking me to choose between these two guys purely on their own merits either for a daemon army or an ogre army, I think I'd pick the Tyrant. +1W and +1Ld are damned important for a general along with the ability to join units and take common magic items. Then you tell me that the Daemon Prince is one hundred points more :eek: ... there's just no contest.

I think the litmus test of whether any unit is severely underpowered is to offer it to an Ogre player to add to their list and they say "na, you're good". ;)


I guess you could get a naked herald..but..why?
Locus. Every unit, especially the line infantry, that can have a locus should have one. Absolutely vital, they're all improved so significantly by the presence of a hero, all the moreso in 8th. I would not field a basic infantry block without a herald, and if they have to be naked to get enough heralds to do it, then so be it. I regularly run naked Slaanesh heralds (heh, they are naked :D), for 90 points they're a bargain - sure, they're vulnerable but stick 'em on the corner or challenge and they usually make it through and if they don't... hey, they're only 90 points!

Leth Shyish'phak
31-08-2010, 22:07
I like to protect my Tzeentch herald bsb by deploying his unit 3 wide, putting him in the second rank, then reforming on the first turn to get a rank bonus. The Herald isn't forced to go to the front rank.

This is particularly good for Tzeentch Heralds as they don't actually lose effectiveness (well, one less Ws3 S3 attack :p ) and can be very useful if you're more concerned with keeping the locus rather than having your Herald kill stuff.

Lord Inquisitor
01-09-2010, 00:29
I like to protect my Tzeentch herald bsb by deploying his unit 3 wide, putting him in the second rank, then reforming on the first turn to get a rank bonus. The Herald isn't forced to go to the front rank.
This is ... dodgy. Yes, I understand completely the RAW, but we're in "rules loophole" and even "cheap trick" territory here. The rules clearly state that a character must be in the front rank, and that a character that moves into another rank via Make Way! is immediately returned to the front rank at the start of their next Movement phase. The intent here is clear that if a unit reforms then characters are placed at the front rank with the commmand group unless there is no room. Until this is resolved by errata (and I have no doubt that if it is addressed, the resolution will be that characters are pushed forward), I consider this an unsportsmanlike tactic. If you want to put your BSB in the second rank, then rank up three wide or put two other characters in the unit.

Toddums
01-09-2010, 05:45
I'm painting my mono nurgle army, looks like I will be in for a challenge :D

ftayl5
01-09-2010, 06:03
mono-nurgle? good luck.

On Heralds. I don't usually put them on mounts at-all, I recently experimented with a unit of 5 Juggers and a Herald on Jugger. It did okay but lost it's rank bonus from shooting before it got into combat so the whole point was defeated.

Anyway a Herald with 50pts of items isn't actually that expensive (unless you make them wizards) and if you have a horde of ______ you definitely want them _________

LordoftheBrassThrone
01-09-2010, 10:16
So i have an army with a horde of bloodletters, flesh hounds with karanak, skulltaker and 4 juggers.

I have another 162.5 points to spend on heroes. Would you recommend a HoK on jugger, or HoT with wings and master of sorcery (lore of life)?

ftayl5
01-09-2010, 10:31
if you're going with a khorne theme (:Ddo it:D) then definitely the khorne herald
if not, the herald of tzeentch would be helpful

Leth Shyish'phak
01-09-2010, 15:44
This is ... dodgy. Yes, I understand completely the RAW, but we're in "rules loophole" and even "cheap trick" territory here. The rules clearly state that a character must be in the front rank,

No, the rulebook does not say this.


and that a character that moves into another rank via Make Way! is immediately returned to the front rank at the start of their next Movement phase. The intent here is clear that if a unit reforms then characters are placed at the front rank with the commmand group unless there is no room. Until this is resolved by errata (and I have no doubt that if it is addressed, the resolution will be that characters are pushed forward), I consider this an unsportsmanlike tactic. If you want to put your BSB in the second rank, then rank up three wide or put two other characters in the unit.

Say what you want about intent, the rules quite clearly allow this and I've never yet met anyone who has had a problem with it. So unless this is changed by an errata, I'll continue to use this perfectly legitimate tactic.

I don't really want to get into a discussion about this, I can't see it achieving anything, I just want to point out this option to other players and they can use it as they want (and be prepared for someone else to use it).

ChrisIronBrow
01-09-2010, 17:25
(and be prepared for someone else to use it).

Agreed. It's important to note also, that many players feel that it is a "cheap" trick. So I'd also be prepared to be called out for it.