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Death_to_the_Xenos
04-07-2010, 12:40
in my opinion is that 25% of army can be used for lords is stupid as in a 1500pt game u can use 375pts on a lord:cheese: who will destroy large portions the enemies army

I like the percentage system but the 25% lords i dont like

if it was like 40% characters and can have a lord for every 2 or 3 character sounds like a more reasonable army composition

how do u guys feel about the army composition?

Urgat
04-07-2010, 12:41
I was hoping the 25% for ALL characters was true. That's my opinion.

Ultimate Life Form
04-07-2010, 12:45
Not this again. There I was glad that the character percentage discussions were finally gone.

Yes, you can take 375 points of Lord but that means you have to leave your big bad monster at home. Or alternatively turn up without an army to speak of. Fire away! The Lord still comes out of your total allowance and supreme lordyness means you have to make cuts elsewhere. I'm very glad I can finally take a Vampire Lord under 2000 points, but that at the same time means that he'll probably be the only Vampire character in my army.

Nocculum
04-07-2010, 12:49
I'd love it if you turned up to a 1,500 point game with a 375 point Lord model, given the changes to kill ratios and how easy it is to run a character through without adequate protection or a place to hide.

I raise your single, game losing model (if it dies that's 475 points for me!) 12 deployment choices, enough magic defence to rebuke your Caster Lord and plenty of chaff to slow your combat grinder down.

Lords arn't feasable in most armies (except Skaven and Empire and Greenskins) until 2,000, and if you take two or more from then on, your army size is diminished greatly. Before you cry cheese for either of the cheap lord armies, remember that their stats are abysmal in the bast majority of cases, and a single Lord from most armies could feasibly take on two or three Warlords or Generals of the Empire.

peterburstrom
04-07-2010, 12:51
Heh, I'm just looking forward to be able to use my Tomb King chariots in smaller games, since I need a Tomb King in order to use them as core.

By the way, what sort of game-breaking lords are we talking about here? 375 points is not a tooled up Star Dragon by far, nor anything like it. Also, I think that 8th will be about the blocks. Sure, get your 375 points Chaos Lord going, the stubborn blocks of 50 guys will still continue to be stubborn. With the leadership of the General. And re-rolls from the Battle Standard.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 12:56
375 points is not a tooled up Star Dragon by far, nor anything like it.
It gets me a Supreme Sorceress with lvl 4 upgrade, Sacrificial dagger and Pendant of Khaeleth :angel:.

Ultimate Life Form
04-07-2010, 12:57
Well a Vamp Lord is 205 naked, and the rest will go into a survival kit and a few Magic upgrades... Should be pretty nasty. I may add a few Necros to support Magic and a fighty Wight King, that's roughly 33 percent of my army... but 33 very tough percent. And if the enemy kills my general... well, as Vampire I've lost anyway in that case, so I'd rather have a Vampire Lord as General than a measly run-of-the-mill bloodsucker. I've had a few incidents in the past...

peterburstrom
04-07-2010, 13:11
Sure, but then again, there's absolutely no terrain to hide in, and you have to take into consideration the added charge ranges of most units. If I were to come up against your sorceress in a unit, I'd do the same thing that I do whenever I find more or less immobile casters; I hunt them down with suicide units of chariots. I get 3 of those for 375 pts. If I really want you killed (or in case of Vampire Lords), the Ushabti got themselves a nice boost with 4 guys fighting on a small frontage and being able to charge a bit longer.

All theoryhammer of course.

Ooh, wasn't there something about that Death Spell, as well? Leech, or whatever?

Falkman
04-07-2010, 13:13
Sure, but then again, there's absolutely no terrain to hide in, and you have to take into consideration the added charge ranges of most units. If I were to come up against your sorceress in a unit, I'd do the same thing that I do whenever I find more or less immobile casters; I hunt them down with suicide units of chariots. I get 3 of those for 375 pts. If I really want you killed (or in case of Vampire Lords), the Ushabti got themselves a nice boost with 4 guys fighting on a small frontage and being able to charge a bit longer.

All theoryhammer of course.

Ooh, wasn't there something about that Death Spell, as well? Leech, or whatever?
Did you miss where I said she had the Pendant? ;).
The Death spells are horrible though, I give you that. Problem is that my Supreme sorceress probably casts them better than your wizard, unless he's a Vampire lord.

kramplarv
04-07-2010, 13:24
you are all fooled. the crimson king will win. He is da KINGLORD!
Chaos lord, Hellfire sword, juggernaut, enchanted shield.

He will SLAUGHTER YOU!!!!!! :D

Falkman
04-07-2010, 13:27
Why would you give him a shield? He already gets a 1+ save just by sitting on the jugger.

peterburstrom
04-07-2010, 13:37
Heh, that pendant always fools me. You would think that the only thing bonier than a skeleton bowman (i.e an elf) would be like cattle to the slaughter. But nooo. That bastard Kaeleth just had to sell his pendant on eBay for next to nothing. It must be that the economic collapse finally reached Naggaroth.

However, we Tomb Kings players are "blessed" with those low strength attacks of ours. I think that between 14 str 3 hits and 8 strength 4 hits (coupled with the impacts) could possibly at least do a dent in the ducking and waiving magician. (and yes, I assume that I charge and that my extra round of close combat goes through). And I got 3 of those units for the same cost as your sorceress, with points to spare.

The Crimson King (or is it Kinglord? I'd like that title) just need to worry about not showing up if someone actually tried that Leech spell. Or get into close combat with stubborn gnoblars or other cheap, 10-rank throwaways that the boards will be littered with come August.

Edit: Isn't it obvious why a Kinglord needs a shield worthy a man of his stature? It is magical! (and also, it is cheaper than a regular shield)

Falkman
04-07-2010, 14:01
(and also, it is cheaper than a regular shield)
No it's not, you use the point values given in the respective army books.
And what I meant was that a Chaos hero receives a 1+ save just by having his Chaos armour and mounting a Jugger, the shield (even a regular, non-magical one) does absolutely nothing and is just a waste of points.

Qemist
04-07-2010, 14:33
it gives him a 6+ ward save in combat.

Havock
04-07-2010, 14:40
No because parry, afaik, is only used when on foot.

Give him the necrotic phylactery instead :)

Dungeon_Lawyer
04-07-2010, 14:42
I'd love it if you turned up to a 1,500 point game with a 375 point Lord model, given the changes to kill ratios and how easy it is to run a character through without adequate protection or a place to hide.

I raise your single, game losing model (if it dies that's 475 points for me!) 12 deployment choices, enough magic defence to rebuke your Caster Lord and plenty of chaff to slow your combat grinder down.

Lords arn't feasable in most armies (except Skaven and Empire and Greenskins) until 2,000, and if you take two or more from then on, your army size is diminished greatly. Before you cry cheese for either of the cheap lord armies, remember that their stats are abysmal in the bast majority of cases, and a single Lord from most armies could feasibly take on two or three Warlords or Generals of the Empire.

You obviously have not run into Lord Goblin great shamen spam yet--Enjoy the foot of gorks ---everywhere!

Lord Malorne
04-07-2010, 14:47
Doesn't also effect the minuses incurred by strength?

skelezom
04-07-2010, 14:50
... And you could Cannon snipe him... The Juggernaut makes him very vulnerable.

Qemist
04-07-2010, 14:52
you cant have goblin shamans spamming foot of gork everywhere, because you cant have more than one magic user in the army with the same spell from the same lore, so only one goblin can have foot of gork. thats not spam.

and oh, i didnt realise parry was unmounted only. mahbad.

Lord Zarkov
04-07-2010, 14:57
No because parry, afaik, is only used when on foot.

Yep, and in addition is only usuable with a mundane shield and a Hand Weapon - so Crimson King fails here on all three counts

Falkman
04-07-2010, 15:30
Doesn't also effect the minuses incurred by strength?
No, the maximum save anyone can have is 1+, period.

Dungeon_Lawyer
04-07-2010, 15:40
you cant have goblin shamans spamming foot of gork everywhere, because you cant have more than one magic user in the army with the same spell from the same lore, so only one goblin can have foot of gork. thats not spam.

Im sorry I used the wrong terminology- You are of course right---The particular example I drew my post from was from a goblin team match.

peterburstrom
04-07-2010, 15:47
No it's not, you use the point values given in the respective army books.
And what I meant was that a Chaos hero receives a 1+ save just by having his Chaos armour and mounting a Jugger, the shield (even a regular, non-magical one) does absolutely nothing and is just a waste of points.

Well, I don't have the Chaos Warriors army book at hand, but I do believe that the enchanted shield is cheaper, or at least the same cost as, the regular variety. If that is not the case, my pal who plays Chaos Warriors has been fooling me for the last couple of years.

Your point still stands, though. It is absolutely unnecessary. But cool.

rtunian
04-07-2010, 15:50
Well, I don't have the Chaos Warriors army book at hand, but I do believe that the enchanted shield is cheaper, or at least the same cost as, the regular variety. If that is not the case, my pal who plays Chaos Warriors has been fooling me for the last couple of years.

Your point still stands, though. It is absolutely unnecessary. But cool.

shield is a five point upgrade for heros, and ten points for lords. the enchanted shield costs more than each, and as much as both

Lord Zarkov
04-07-2010, 16:06
It was less in the WD list after Daemons got taken away, but is more now.

Zaustus
04-07-2010, 16:17
For the points, I'd much rather have an Exalted Hero on a juggernaut. It's about half the cost of the Lord, and almost as killy. There's no longer any reason to take a shield on a juggernaut-mounted character, so just do something like MoK, juggernaut, BSB, great weapon, helm of many eyes, dawnstone (the re-roll armor saves common item). Season to taste with the magic items, and add a gift if you want. Stream of Corruption would be a good choice.

But that's just Chaos. For armies with cheap lords, you'll see more than one per army. Empire in particular can now get both an Arch Lector and a General, a very nice buff for them. For armies with expensive lords, you'll probably still only see one per army unless it's a 3k+ game.

peterburstrom
04-07-2010, 16:18
Oh, my friend will get what's coming to him. I stand corrected.

Tae
04-07-2010, 16:28
shield is a five point upgrade for heros, and ten points for lords. the enchanted shield costs more than each, and as much as both

New BRB Enchanted Shield is 5 points.

kramplarv
04-07-2010, 16:40
Why would you give him a shield? He already gets a 1+ save just by sitting on the jugger.

because I can :) he is AWESOME! :D He is not the best lord out there.. but he is the Crimson king. And probably the funniest lord choice ever. The tactic is to let him roam the battlefield on his own and just behold the awesomeness. HAIL KINGLORD!

Lord Zarkov
04-07-2010, 16:46
New BRB Enchanted Shield is 5 points.

IIRC if an common item appears both in the rulebook and the army book but with different prices then you use the army book price.

Damocles8
04-07-2010, 16:54
yep army book price...I'd rather pay more for the enchanted shield, but I'll take my cheaper War Banner as well

Sygerrik
04-07-2010, 17:21
Lords can no longer break units by themselves, even if they're riding on Dragons or some other large monsters. So whatever.

xv8
04-07-2010, 18:12
in some aspects its good but in others i could take two lion chariots korhil in a chariot and a prince with a 2+ rerollable armour save a 4+ ward in a tiranoc chariot thats str 7 or my lv 4 with the book of hoeth which most people in my area would hate thats why its only good if your not a power gamer

Aratus
04-07-2010, 19:36
Yea, until the FAQs are released i think the book of hoeth is game breaking.

375 points for a lord in 1500 points isnt that bad, it takes away from everything else so if you lose it you just dug yourself a 375 point shaped hole in the ground.

Nocculum
04-07-2010, 19:41
475 points, unless he's somehow not the Army general ;)

southpaw
04-07-2010, 19:43
I brought Grimgor to a 1500 point game. It was only my second game with O&G so I wanted to give him a go. After I chopped apart my opponent's Tyrant Lord in one turn I felt a little bad, well, just a little.

O&G'sRule
04-07-2010, 19:47
There had to be this split for the lord choice away from just being 25% characters. Otherwise monstrous mounts and high point lords would be a thing of the past. Basically, GW would have lost alot of potential sales. Who'd buy a dragon? Azhag? The Ogre armies would have been ruined. Personally I like the layout. I think saying a lord will just destroy half the opposing army on his own at 1500 points I think is way off the mark (anyway theres nothing stopping both armies having a lord) I think the horde, steadfast rule gives single characters big problems

Falkman
04-07-2010, 19:57
Yea, until the FAQs are released i think the book of hoeth is game breaking.
How do you expect the FAQs to change the book?

twistinthunder
04-07-2010, 20:13
Did you miss where I said she had the Pendant? ;).
The Death spells are horrible though, I give you that. Problem is that my Supreme sorceress probably casts them better than your wizard, unless he's a Vampire lord.

of course you could fire off death spells better, he's a TK player.

xv8
04-07-2010, 20:14
there isn't much to change the rulebook says that you don't miscast when you role double of anything but 6's in this case the book provides a iresistable force on a sucessful cast that includes doubles but no a miscast

xv8
04-07-2010, 20:18
Yea, until the FAQs are released i think the book of hoeth is game breaking.

375 points for a lord in 1500 points isnt that bad, it takes away from everything else so if you lose it you just dug yourself a 375 point shaped hole in the ground.

well it really depends how your using that lord because a mage with the book can easily do alot of damage for example when using the purple sun on a lizardmen army:cheese:

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 20:19
Yea, until the FAQs are released i think the book of hoeth is game breaking.

Care to elaborate?

Tae
04-07-2010, 20:44
there isn't much to change the rulebook says that you don't miscast when you role double of anything but 6's in this case the book provides a iresistable force on a sucessful cast that includes doubles but no a miscast

Yep, both the Book of Hoeth and Ring of Hotek are already fully explained in the BRB so neither need an FAQ.

The BRB states that if you have an item which causes someone to IF on something other than a double 6, then they IF without the miscast.

Similarly if you have an item that makes someone miscast on something other than a double 6, then they miscast without the IF.

Lordsaradain
04-07-2010, 23:23
I was hoping the 25% for ALL characters was true. That's my opinion.

Mine too. I dislike herohammer.

Nocculum
04-07-2010, 23:36
With few exceptions, nothing has changed in regards to characters.

Even at 'Grand Army' level most non-horde armies can't push out 2 lords and 4 heroes like you can under 7th without seriously hampering army size and thus effectiveness.

At 1,500, you're lucky to get more than 2 equipped heroes, more if you go MSU/minimalist or have things like Goblins and Captains.

At 2,250/2,500 a hefty elven lord or Level 4 caster eats into your limited allowance.

All things said, it's not actually that different. Few armies below 3k will even bother to run two lords.

Havock
05-07-2010, 00:30
Mine too. I dislike herohammer.

I would actually have liked it, despite being really hard to work around with Chaos Mortals, as it would make for a decent attempt at creating a balanced game. Right now they do the same thing they always do: swing the pendulum in some direction different from it's current direction, prompting everyone to buy new stuff. Ok, almost everyone.

peterburstrom
05-07-2010, 01:03
And in response to O&G'srule: At 1500 points, you can easily fit in 2 bruisers, one of which is the BSB, fully tooled. Give the general the Mawseeker big name, a great weapon and some other nasty stuff that you can afford, and he makes mincemeat out of any cheap lord you can throw at him (except, of course, as always, anyone with the pendant of the bastard Kaeleth). Of course, if you prefer, you can always switch to a butcher instead of a battle standard waver. I do not consider the ogres getting a bad deal if the character cap would be cut in half, not at those kinds of points especially. However, it would go a long way to ensure that the slaughtermasters never see the light of day, at any game of a reasonable point level. I for one am anxiously awaiting the thay when I can break out the one non special character choice, from any army book, I have never seen anybody use in action.

Chiron
05-07-2010, 01:36
I rather like being able to use the Empire General at last, I run one with a Runefang (yay, its finally something I'd take!) and one with a Ward to act as the general

Its neat

xv8
05-07-2010, 14:02
i'm sorry but the ring of hotek could use a nerf in these rules if anyone gets near teclis with that he and his unit will explode

Lord Malorne
05-07-2010, 14:09
Why are you sorry?

As to the topic, I don't mind, will see how the games pan out and affect the meta-game.

Tae
05-07-2010, 15:35
i'm sorry but the ring of hotek could use a nerf in these rules if anyone gets near teclis with that he and his unit will explode

Just chose the Lore of Death and then roll 6 dice at either the no.2 or no.5 spells, kill the guy with the ring, then spam to oblivion. Since he ignores the first miscast every turn.

Alternatively, 6 dice Throne of Vines and then just 2+ every other miscast.

Leogun_91
05-07-2010, 15:46
475 points, unless he's somehow not the Army general ;)Well there are a few lord choices that may not be the general and some that don't need too. I doubt I'll use my Daemonprince as the general actually as he's soo much better at flying around causing mischief so then It's an Exalted hero that leads them.

peterburstrom
05-07-2010, 18:51
Yes, I believe that caster lords seldom are army generals except in special circumstances such as an all-mage list. You can nearly always take a fighter hero with the same Leadership as the caster lord and appoint him or her as the general. Makes them survive a bit longer, too.

GodlessM
05-07-2010, 19:20
Yep, both the Book of Hoeth and Ring of Hotek are already fully explained in the BRB so neither need an FAQ.

The BRB states that if you have an item which causes someone to IF on something other than a double 6, then they IF without the miscast.

Similarly if you have an item that makes someone miscast on something other than a double 6, then they miscast without the IF.

Page number? I have failed to find this ruling.

Falkman
05-07-2010, 19:57
Yeah the writing isn't as clear-cut as Tae makes it out to be.
He's talking about page 34, by the way.

Lazarian
05-07-2010, 20:34
In the new rules Teclis will probably solo many armies. He can pick lore of death, 7 to 8 dice cast the big sun, get all those dice back and probably have mowed through a unit or two with no fear of miscast... each turn.

This seems a bit rough

VilleVicious
05-07-2010, 20:41
Also being able to take two lords allows me to save points on characters with my HE as I can replace 2 lvl 2s with an Level 4 archmage. Giving me a still enjoyable magic phase and allowing with bit of skimping an the magic items to have the Ring of Hoeth lord on foot that is my favorite character in the 2250 points range.

Falkman
05-07-2010, 20:51
In the new rules Teclis will probably solo many armies. He can pick lore of death, 7 to 8 dice cast the big sun
What's up with people saying Teclis can use 7-8 power dice to cast a spell?
There is nothing in his rules that says he can use more dice than any other wizard, thus he is limited to 6 dice per cast just as everyone else.

WillFightForFood
05-07-2010, 21:36
Deleted Post

Nocculum
05-07-2010, 21:46
Why are people complaining that Teclis, the most powerful living mage is...shock horror, good at magic?

He finally lives up to his fluff on the board and suddenly it's in bad taste to be competant at your name sake.

High Loremaster of Hoeth and all :shifty:

xv8
05-07-2010, 21:49
teclis using 6 dice will mostly get any spell off use him for the purple sun and another mage to cast pit of shades and they can kill half an army in a turn ! i'm looking at you lizardmen

xv8
05-07-2010, 21:50
Why are people complaining that Teclis, the most powerful living mage is...shock horror, good at magic?

He finally lives up to his fluff on the board and suddenly it's in bad taste to be competant at your name sake.

High Loremaster of Hoeth and all :shifty:

he deserves it he was able to fight malekite alone and if he wasn't saved by moriathy malekite would have been killed (sorry about my spelling:()

peterburstrom
05-07-2010, 23:11
Wait, what was the topic initially? Oh, too many lords, right. What is this Teclisian techno-babble?

Just do the sensible thing, and ban him and all his special character colleagues, no matter what. Warhammer, with all its fun and amusement, way too close to break without them jumping up and down on top of it. (or rather, do as you please, but there are enough gaming communities that don't bother with them to go around for everyone that considers the wise guy of Hoeth too broken)

So: Lords. I generally think that the character caps are sort of spot on. The previous system really favoured heavily armed lords and their flying lizards, and the current one favours gnoblar head honchos. How can you be dissatisfied with a system like that?