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RunepriestRidcully
04-07-2010, 14:11
It is simple really, why do Khorne Berserkers and Death Guard get all the love from Games Workshop (plastic kit for beserkers, forge world for both of them, consistently decent rules and plenty of attention and support.) When Thousand Sons and Noise marines consistantly get either poor rules, low competitiveness, stuck with metal plastic hybrids, that at least with the Thousand Sons, requires a sacrifice of skin from your fingers to assemble, (also with Thousand Sons, the 2nd edition models were so much nicer and more detailed then the current ones)
I am not a competitive player, but I am starting to get fed up of a single Storm raven librarian dreadnought being enough to overwhelm my anti tank defences in a 1000pts, whilst Beserkers or Deathguard could handle them on their own.
so I just want to know, why the lack of love for the two coolest, most interesting of the cult legions?
P.S "A Thousand Sons" whilst good, is not much compared to the attention the Berserkers and Walking corpses have recieved over the years.
So any ideas?

DeviantApostle
04-07-2010, 15:08
-sighs- I'm afraid there are multiple reasons here, which I know as a Tzeench/Slaanesh player who has been a fan of those Gods since Realm of Chaos.

Khorne is the favourite son because of the whole 'Blood for the Blood God' uber-mucho masculine military appeal. There are ALOT of Khorne players, which means there's a bigger cash cow pleasing them. You can see this all the way through from 2nd edition and even Epic. Just check out how many daemonic war machines Khorne gets compared to the others in Epic.

Father Nurgle's second in popularity, I think in part because he speaks to the little boy in all of us who remains fascinated by picking his nose. It helps that Nurgle's emphasis on physical toughness shines through on the battlefield, making Plague Marines consistently effective due to their tenacity.

Going for the trifecta, both have 'cool' colour schemes and models, the Bloodthurster is just about the best mascot you could offer a wargamer. Nurgle offers a great deal of relatively easy converting opportunities as well as challenging paint scheme effects. Their overall themes are also quite understandably evil.

First of all, Tzeench and Slannesh don't have cool colour schemes. Blue, purple, pink, white? The Lord of Change has an awesome name but... he's a big vulture thing ripped straight out of DnD and Dark Crystal... the iconic 'Evy Metal paintjob really doesn't help being blue and white. Not exactly what people first think of when talking about a scion of evil magic.

Further with Tzeench, the Great Mutator might be the God of Magic but his psykers are really **** poor across almost every rule set I've ever seen. There's some hope for this with the Warriors of Chaos and Chaos Daemons books for fantasy, like they've suddenly woken up and realized that a Tzeenchian Sorcerer PERHAPS should be better than a Space Wolf Runepriest. Certainly, they should be on par with a Farseer. There's also an artefact of the the transition from 2nd to 3rd where psykers recieved a gigantic and much needed nerf while recieving a completely unneeded price hike. Psykers are only just coming back into balance in 5th but until we shake off the 4e codex and the rediculous price tag on the Aspiring Sorcerer we're stuck with an outdated notion that psykers are unduely awesome.

Some people might be scoffing at the moment considering the Bolt of Change but seriously, what's the point of an overcosted lascannon that might not go off in a squad of AP3 Boltguns? Particularly when you can buy an actual lascannon for less points, better strength, greater range and better synergy that doesn't need a roll just to fire?

Most importantly, someone wasn't thinking of sales when they came up with Pink Horrors. How the hell are you going to sell PINK forces of evil outside Hello Kitty? In the Grim Dark future of the 41st milennium... horror is PINK. Yeah... sorry, doesn't work.

Slaanesh suffers from another problem aside from the Pavane of Pinkness. S/he's the god of perverse sex, lust, hermaphrodites and other such things the 12 year olds GW's marketing campaign is aiming for shouldn't really see. There's a guy who's Slaanesh army was banned from my local GW because HIS CONVERSIONS WERE TOO GOOD. You can't take his fluff and make it kiddy friendly, which seems to have been the focus of much of Chaos' development since Warhammer's average player age has gone down from twenty-somethings to tweens.

The good news is that 4e did alot for Tzeench and Slaanesh in terms of making them somewhat viable, they're just not as competitive as the Khorne/Nurgle/Lash DP/Oblit combo that everyone raves about (which I have issues with these days, with the reliance of Mech in 5th). Hopefully, when Chaos' turn comes around, things will get better.

AndrewGPaul
04-07-2010, 15:22
(also with Thousand Sons, the 2nd edition models were so much nicer and more detailed then the current ones)

Not sure which models you're talking about here; before the current box set came out, there was precisely one model described as a "Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marine", and he was stood at attention, gripping his boltgun. In any case, that was a Rogue Trader marine.

I imagine Khorne are more popular because it's the easiest Chaos Power to describe - he's the god of killing stuff, pure and simple. As to why Nurgle was the next one to get a wole range of minis, it's probably because Plague Marines are the most visually distinct from the standard CHaos Space Marine look.

Mind you, I'm not seeing how Nurgle's getting "love". The one thing they have that Tzeentch or Slaanesh Chaos Marines don't is a standard bearer. Plus their Cult Troops box set is the worst value for money out of all 4.

As to Forgeworld, I imagine that's just down to the designers' whims. Someone must just like buboes and running sores, because there's two Nurgle dreadnoughts available. :) Never fear; Slaanesh and Tzeentch will have their day in an IA book.

MrGiggles
04-07-2010, 15:32
Well, I can't really speak to Thousand Sons since I've never seen them fielded, but I know I've seen lots of Noise Marines from my buddy who plays Chaos.

They basically started when he got a bunch of the old Noise Marines with the skull helmets and I painted them up. I didn't really know much about the sort of de facto colour schemes at the time, so they got done up a la Black Legion an they looked good. Granted those were great models, but they were also one of my early paint jobs and being able to make something that looked consistently good was nice. It's certainly something I still look back fondly on. Moving on from there though, it didn't take Sean long to learn that Noise Marines, geared up, do pretty well on the table top. So, with those two things in mind, he got more. Once he gets everything painted, he'll have more Noise Marines than Berserkers.

In terms of the tabletop, the greatest strength of any Marine is their ability to stand there and accurately shoot. Granted, Noise Marines are higher initiative Marines which are fearless (and just as well received for that), but they really come into their own as a bunch of Marines who you can give a better gun to. Having to buy the additional sonic weapons packs is kind of dirty, but on the table top, Noise Marines are basically the CSM version of Lootas. I've seen Sean blow entire units off the table with those things so many times that I'm honestly surprised that I'm not seeing a rash of Slaaneshi armies at my FLGS. It might just be Sean having good luck with the Noise Marines or nobody planning for them, but looking at them objectively, the can definitely be a heavy support unit in a troop choice.

Berserkers and Plague Marines definitely get more love as it were though.

Darthvegeta800
04-07-2010, 15:33
Being a fan of the Thousand Sons, I always regretted the priceyness and lack of strength of such a force. I'd give them a try otherwise. Pricey Elite Units backed up by powerful Sorcerors... in theory. In practice they're weak along the line.

barrangas
04-07-2010, 15:43
Tzeentch saw love between the brief gap between C:CSM 4.0 and 5th ed. They had a 4+ Invul and AP 3 Bolters which could do a number on most units. 5th Ed provided good and easy cover saves which cut back on their effectiveness.

Noise Marines are a solid unit with some great weapon options and Initiative 5, which doesn't suck. The problem is that they are lackluster compared to the rest. I mean they get access to only a few AP 3 shooting attacks, which is what most people care about.

Raven1
04-07-2010, 15:47
I don't think it's much a lack of love although Noise Marines and 1k Sons carry a lot of potential. One of the reasons I think that Khorne and Nurgle are so popular with the fan base is death and disease lend themselves to war very naturally.

RunepriestRidcully
04-07-2010, 16:39
@Deviant Apostle, I think you have hit the nail on the head, I have always thought the pre 5th Psyker were overcosted, I started late third so could you please tell me what happened in third. Also how do I put stuff in my sig, what you said about the horrors is brilliant, but I cannot figure out how to put stuff in my sig, tried looking on my profile, but didn't see anything, and I must agree with you on the horror problem, and the new models look like they will only make the problem worse, is GW determined to destroy the daemons range or something?
@AndrewGPaul I did not know it was that old, I thought it was 2nd edition, thank you, it means I have a rogue trader model:) (praise ebay) But whilst yess, the pose may look a bit bland after the nth Thousand Son, but the detail on it's shoulders, arms, legs and helmet far out pace the ones on the current kit,the Tzeentch bolters on each are nice though.
A thing the plague marines have though is a way to at least deal with tanks that does not cost them more then an obliterator, only worse, and can easily be shut down by your opponent.

Erwos
04-07-2010, 17:32
Lack of love? The poll differs with you, sir:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264615

Really, they're just suffering in terms of game effectiveness compared to the other Chaos choices, especially given the 5E metagame of mech, cover, and movement. Give 1k Sons the ability to ignore cover with their inferno bolts and Noise Marines the ability to take a couple more blastmasters, and they'd be in far more armies.

DeviantApostle
04-07-2010, 17:40
@Deviant Apostle, I think you have hit the nail on the head, I have always thought the pre 5th Psyker were overcosted, I started late third so could you please tell me what happened in third. Also how do I put stuff in my sig, what you said about the horrors is brilliant, but I cannot figure out how to put stuff in my sig, tried looking on my profile, but didn't see anything, and I must agree with you on the horror problem, and the new models look like they will only make the problem worse, is GW determined to destroy the daemons range or something?

Before anything else, check under 'User CP' at the top left of the forum then under 'Settings and Options' on the menu at the left hand side of the screen you'll find 'edit signature'. I'd suggest clicking the 'quote' button on my post, then delete everything except the exerpt and anything in the QUOTE brackets then copy/paste from there and it should be hunky-dory. :D

To fully explain the psyker situation, in Rogue Trader and 2nd ed. Psykers were godly. Examples of powers from this era include Temporal Distortion with which you could re-take an entire phase from scratch! Or Vortex of Doom, which insta-killed any model in its path and was famous for eating whole armies by itself. There's a second edition Blood Angels vs. Orks batrep in a White Dwarf where a 4th level Space Marine Psyker (Psykers used to be more like Fantasy wizards, there was even a whole psychic phase like there is in Fantasy) teleported across the board and won the game ON HIS OWN because the rest of the army died.

Back in 2nd edition, the big complaint on everyone's lips was "NERF CHARACTERS". Essentially, hero units won and lost games, to the point where the rest of the army was entirely superfluous. At the head of the pack was the imbalance of psykers. Everyone took a level 4 psyker despite the fact that one guy could set you back 400+ points because anything else was suicide. Of course, back then, the average army was 3000pts rather than 1500, so there was room for them.

So, 3rd edition came around and GW had to address the problem. As is the want of game designers everywhere, they overreacted and made psykers completely useless. As one of the launch armies for 3rd, the Dark Eldar codex has NO psykers, I believe to show their commitment to nerfing psykers into the ground. At least, Gav Thorpe came out and said straight out that Dark Eldar had no psykers to prove that you didn't need them in 3rd. All of a sudden, NOBODY was fielding psykers. At all. They simply didn't do anything everyone else could do better. On top of that, their comparable costs were through the roof compared to the effectiveness of a simple Chaplain or Captain in the case of SM. Smite really isn't impressive at all on a 100+pt model, even if you didn't have to roll a Ld test for it to go off... and that was THE option you got in the 3rd edition marine 'dex.

When Chaos' 'dex came around, this gave Khorne a HUUUUUUGE boost gameplay wise. Tzeench as a magic-reliant army just curled up and died because psykers were overcosted crap. The Bloodthurster problem from 2nd ed just got worse, Bloodthursters being the most powerful model in the entire game for a loooooooong time, every Chaos player fielded one. Ironically, Farseers didn't change much between the editions because their powers were always buffs to other units rather than offensive in their own right.

Back in 2nd ed, Tzeench still wasn't great but at least the psychic powers made up for the pants 1K Sons who DIED ON THEIR OWN WITHOUT HELP FROM THE ENEMY. But Noise Marines got guitars... damn, they were cool back then.

susu.exp
04-07-2010, 19:02
Donīt forget 2nd Ed. Blastmasters rocked harder than the hardest rocking noise marines, being pretty much man-portable battle cannons. Of course they were Heavy, so you put them on Termies, which could fire them on the move. Of course such units got Expensive, but a 3+ on 2D6 and the ability to wipe out anything (8+3D6 penetration, just a little worse than a lascannon, which had 9+3D6), the option to split fire to some degree by carfully turning the models the right way that 2nd Ed. allowed made this a unit that could kill pretty much anything. And of course they were infantry so you could take as many of them as points allowed...
Tseentch was rather powerful through the use of GDs (the only way to have multiple psychers with the same Power) and they came with the Boon of Tseentch - allowing you to use more psychic powers, including the bolt of change (more badass than Jaws - no saves of any kind and the target had to roll under their toughness with 2D6) and the pink fire (huge template, S5 hits for anything, no saves, for every 3 wounds a horror gets placed).

The issue with Slaanesh right now is that Noise Marines are stuck between roles: excellent weapons make them shooty, the boost to their Initiative helps them in CC. No matter how you use them, you sacrifice something you pay for. Tseentch has an even bigger problem: The Thousand Sons have a rather peculiar history and representing rubrics is a completely different thing from representing other Tseentchian marines. While a lot of followers of Khorne end up berzerkers, a lot of Nurgle followers end up pleague marines and Slaaneshi followers Noise Marines, the Rubric is unique to 1k Sons. So getting both right would take twice the work for the others (and then people would complain Tseentch is getting all the love). A speculation: When Pete Haines wrote 3.5 he found an envelope by Jervis: "You canīt get Tseentch right". When Gav wrote 4 he found an envelope by Peter and now, somewhere in the studio thereīs an envelope with "to whoever writes the next CSM codex" in Gavs handwriting ready to be opened...

That being said: FW did do some slaanesh stuff (vehicle sonic weapons) and Iīm sure theyīll do conversion kits for the two missing gods at some point (after all they did Khorne first, then got to Nurgle).

wazatdingder
04-07-2010, 20:23
Not sure which models you're talking about here; before the current box set came out, there was precisely one model described as a "Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marine", and he was stood at attention, gripping his boltgun. In any case, that was a Rogue Trader marine.



I got 3 squads of that 1 model, I feel it is an excellent representation as to what a Rubric Marine is. They are not prone to individuality and striking poses,

As for noise marines, they butchered them with the pink and black goth makeover on CSM models (when the P-Funk vibe was working). That and only having 2 NM weapons in a box. If I want to play NMs, I don't want bolters.

susu.exp
04-07-2010, 21:21
Thatīs why you donīt buy the box, but the bitz pack. 5 SBs and a BM for a decent price tag.

AndrewGPaul
04-07-2010, 22:04
I'm just not keen on the Noise Marine models. To me, it's not a proper Noise Marine if it doesn't look like this:

http://www.cop.ufl.edu/safezone/doty/dotyhome/40k/nmarine.jpg

zendral
04-07-2010, 23:11
I would just like to see some love for them on forge world. Khorne and nurgle have the seat there.

Paul Nexus
04-07-2010, 23:18
Lash DP

Anyone else find this amusing, considering the patron?

Sorry, completely off topic there....

Most people pick the warrior over the mage, the spread of disease over the spread of pleasure. Particularly with the younger people. They understand the concept of a guy with a big axe, or turning people into zombies with plagues, a lot more than the subtlety of galactic/sensual manipulation. It wasn't too long ago for me.

I quite get Slaanesh myself, but I've been close to accidentally creating that entity myself...:evilgrin:

Garanaul the Black
05-07-2010, 03:54
Father Nurgle's second in popularity, I think in part because he speaks to the little boy in all of us who remains fascinated by picking his nose. It helps that Nurgle's emphasis on physical toughness shines through on the battlefield, making Plague Marines consistently effective due to their tenacity.



To be fair, a lot of Nurgle Devotees like myself are big zombie and horror fans. (The same could be said of Slaanesh with it's Clive Barker vibe).

When I first chose Nurgle it was all about the look of the figures. Those Third (?) edition Plague Marines (with the hoses and spikes on their helmets) really sold me. The fact that they're some of the most reliable troops in the game helps too, but I didn't realize that until later. ;)


On topic: I have a feeling (OK, I hope) our next Codex will even the playing field in unit selection, ideally doing away with 'no brainer' choices and reintroducing Thousand Sons and Noise Marines back into the mix as more competitive choices.

G

TemujinZero
05-07-2010, 04:08
I'd take them as part of a themed Thousand Son's or Emperor's Children list, bad rules be damned, but since the current codex is so bad at representing such forces I'll pass.

AndrewGPaul
05-07-2010, 07:14
I'd like to see the Cult rules as options for all the normal Chaos Space Marine units. Heck, do it via special characters like Codex: Space Marines, if you must.

I really don't like the 'dumbing down' of the exemplar Legions; apparently all World Eaters are Berserkers and all Thousand Sons are equipped with nothing but bolters? I want an army of Thousand Sons, and that includes fire support and vehicles, not just slow riflemen.

The same goes for Plague Marines - where are the Death Guard Havocs or Raptors? I'm not sure if the World Eaters or Emperor's Children are as one-dimensional; does the Codex say all World Eaters are Berserkers or all Emperor's Children are Noise Marines?

Born Again
05-07-2010, 07:15
I'm just not keen on the Noise Marine models. To me, it's not a proper Noise Marine if it doesn't look like this:

http://www.cop.ufl.edu/safezone/doty/dotyhome/40k/nmarine.jpg

Those are classic and still cool models, but for me the ultimate Noise Marine look is Jes Goodwin's concept sketch in The Gothic and The Eldritch book. Unfortunately, the models themselves haven't really captured that look.

Thanatos_elNyx
05-07-2010, 08:20
Yeah, I agree with almost everything that has been said here.

For me playing Thousand Sons; 60 points for an Aspiring Sorcerer that you still have to buy a power for it just way too much and the powers are weak.
I always go Doombolt just because it is the cheapest, but that is still 70 points for just slightly more firepower and a little more (or less) range than a 23 point Thousand Son.

If I were redoing them, I would drop their cost way down, make the Force Weapon optional, make the powers better and free.
And for the love of Tzeentch give the God of Magic some protection against enemy spells. Even the Talisman of Tzeentch would be something (make them stackable; let see you cast a spell with Ld6!).

DeviantApostle
05-07-2010, 08:25
To be fair, a lot of Nurgle Devotees like myself are big zombie and horror fans. (The same could be said of Slaanesh with it's Clive Barker vibe).

I understand this. I myself am a big zombie and horror fan. I'm a bigger Clive Barker fan though, however I feel that Dark Elder are a bit more Clive Barkerish than Slaanesh CSM or even Daemons.

Really, I don't begrudge Khorne and Nurgle players at all, let me make that clear. My frustration is that my own two favourite gods always seem to be left by the wayside. I don't want Tz/Sl to be better, I just don't want to feel like a ***** taking them.

Iracundus
05-07-2010, 10:11
Khorne is the favourite son because of the whole 'Blood for the Blood God' uber-mucho masculine military appeal. There are ALOT of Khorne players, which means there's a bigger cash cow pleasing them. You can see this all the way through from 2nd edition and even Epic. Just check out how many daemonic war machines Khorne gets compared to the others in Epic.

Father Nurgle's second in popularity, I think in part because he speaks to the little boy in all of us who remains fascinated by picking his nose. It helps that Nurgle's emphasis on physical toughness shines through on the battlefield, making Plague Marines consistently effective due to their tenacity.

I think GW has always had this sort of bias from the beginning. The "hulk smash" macho themes of Khorne easily appeal to male fantasies of omnipotence and empowerment, whereas the Nurgle zombie rotting corpse theme also easily appeals to those aiming for the "evil" look.

Tzeentch in particular though always described as the 2nd most powerful behind Khorne has suffered from the problem of making its magic both powerful yet balanced. It has also rarely had as much limelight due to the focus on manipulation and subtlety. Tzeentch's maddening aspects also get relatively little attention beyond just ending up looking weird.

Tzeentchian psychic powers unfortunately for the most part have had trouble moving beyond variations of "psychic" lascannon or psychic heavy bolter equivalent.

Shab
05-07-2010, 11:00
I think GW has always had this sort of bias from the beginning. The "hulk smash" macho themes of Khorne easily appeal to male fantasies of omnipotence and empowerment, whereas the Nurgle zombie rotting corpse theme also easily appeals to those aiming for the "evil" look.


I blame GW too, they have always had a soft spot for Khorne and Nurgle. They were amongst the three original chaos gods, don't forget that, Tzeentch and Slaanesh were only added later. GW have had an idea of what to do with these two from day one, their followers filling archetypal evil roles in the Warhammer world. Tzeentch and Slaanesh, well, they have always been somewhat more obscure.

Iracundus
05-07-2010, 11:14
I blame GW too, they have always had a soft spot for Khorne and Nurgle. They were amongst the three original chaos gods, don't forget that, Tzeentch and Slaanesh were only added later.

Slaanesh appeared with Khorne in the 1st Realms of Chaos, and Tzeentch appeared with Nurgle in the 2nd.

Slaanesh always suffered in comparison to Khorne. Partly this was the relative greater value of Strength and Toughness compared to higher Initiative. The value of psychic powers against Khorne was also heavily negated by things like the COllar of Khorne. In the Realms of Chaos, the original Beam of Slaanesh had special efficacy against Khornate daemons, causing Wounds instead of just inflicting stupidity like mortal targets, but such anti-Khorne measures have vanished since then. The value of non-lethal psychic powers such as many of Slaanesh's "de-buff" powers was always somewhat questionable given the limited turns available in a game to use powers.

The balance between Nurgle and Tzeentch wasn't too bad in RoC but has suffered since about 2nd edition onwards in 40K, with Thousand Suns being very underwhelming.

IJW
05-07-2010, 11:42
Khorne (and possibly some of the others) pre-date the Realm of Chaos books. I assume that's what Shab is referring to.

At the time, games didn't have limited numbers of turns so the de-buff powers were correspondingly more powerful.

Occulto
05-07-2010, 12:09
Tzeentchian psychic powers unfortunately for the most part have had trouble moving beyond variations of "psychic" lascannon or psychic heavy bolter equivalent.

I agree both hardly inspiring.

A move to more esoteric powers would make the army a lot more appealing. Slowing time so that enemies moved at half movement or the ability to reroll hits.

susu.exp
05-07-2010, 12:12
Khorne (and possibly some of the others) pre-date the Realm of Chaos books. I assume that's what Shab is referring to.

1st Ed. WFRPG had Nurgle, Khorne, Tseentch and Malal. Between the first RPG and ROC Malal had been dropped for Slaanesh.

AndrewGPaul
05-07-2010, 12:20
I don't remember Tzeentch being in 1st edition WFRP. At least, there were no demons of Tzeentch (or Malal, for that matter) in the bestiary section.

Not saying it wasn't mentioned, though. It's been a while since I read the book.

Born Again
05-07-2010, 12:26
... or the ability to reroll hits.

Like, say, Warptime? Not a Tzeentch-only power, I know, but it's still there to be used, and is one of the more popular Chaos psychic powers.

alphamale
05-07-2010, 12:31
If FW ever made Slaanesh DPS / Heralds / NM conversion kits, they would make a heap of money from me.

Looking at the cool Beserker Terminators and Khorne DP / Heralds, man I am jealous :(

Thanatos_elNyx
05-07-2010, 12:37
Well if Thousand Sons had more interesting abilities like the Changlings ability for Chaos Daemons; that would be great.

Wishing
05-07-2010, 12:40
I really don't like the 'dumbing down' of the exemplar Legions; apparently all World Eaters are Berserkers and all Thousand Sons are equipped with nothing but bolters? I want an army of Thousand Sons, and that includes fire support and vehicles, not just slow riflemen.

The same goes for Plague Marines - where are the Death Guard Havocs or Raptors? I'm not sure if the World Eaters or Emperor's Children are as one-dimensional; does the Codex say all World Eaters are Berserkers or all Emperor's Children are Noise Marines?


I agree with this to an extent - I don't think each cult should have access to every unit type, but I do think each of them should have a selection of options. Death guard havocs I'd be happy with, death guard raptors less so. Thousand Sons should definitely be allowed to use more than just bolters in my opinion too, though I can't see them using many fast attack options...

AndrewGPaul
05-07-2010, 12:53
Every Imperial Space Marine Chapter has access to Assault, Tactical and Devastator squads (with the possible exception of the Black Templars); I don't see why the traitor Legions would be any less flexible.

The Thousand Sons are a bit of a special case, but I'm sure GW can make up some new fluff to justify Thousand Sons assault troops - they did it with Tyrannic War veterans, Thunderwolf Cavalry and Sanguinary Guard, after all.

I'd even like to see some World Eater devastator troops - Khorne doesn't care if you slaughter the foe in melee or blow them up with big guns; blood is blood.

Occulto
05-07-2010, 13:16
Like, say, Warptime? Not a Tzeentch-only power, I know, but it's still there to be used, and is one of the more popular Chaos psychic powers.

Yeah but it's a power that affects individuals. I'm more talking about unit changing abilities. So the Sorcerer buffs the 1ksons he's leading, rather than just standing there as an over glorified heavy weapon. :p

AndrewGPaul
05-07-2010, 13:41
In the original Thousand Sons army list in Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned, Thrall squads led by Sorcerors had a sort of gestalt effect, similar to Grey Knight Terminator squads. A new unit could be the same; perhaps a Sorceror leading a unit of Thousand Sons gets a bonus for the number of models in the squad - his Force Weapon has a Strength equal to the number of models in the squad, or he can try to roll equal to or less than the number of models in the squad on 2D6 to avoid Perils of the Warp tests or simply roll equal to or under the number of models in the squad, rather than the Sorceror's Ld, for Psychic Tests.

Wishing
05-07-2010, 13:51
Every Imperial Space Marine Chapter has access to Assault, Tactical and Devastator squads (with the possible exception of the Black Templars); I don't see why the traitor Legions would be any less flexible.

To an extent, I agree, but I think chaos legions have a tendency to be more extreme theme-wise than their imperial cousins. At least, the ones with marks of chaos. A marine with the mark of nurgle, in my opinion, is a bloated shambling heap of infected flesh - having him bounce around with a jump pack seems very out of character for such a dude. However, maybe not all death guard marines in fact have the mark of nurgle, some aren't so physcially affected and might be more inclined to be jump infantry.




I'd even like to see some World Eater devastator troops - Khorne doesn't care if you slaughter the foe in melee or blow them up with big guns; blood is blood.

I dunno, I do think khorne prefers classic axe to mouth action for his killing (even if he does employ giant mortars), and that a marine with the mark of khorne would always pick up the chain axe rather than the heavy bolter.... but again, you could easily have a non-marked world eater who would rather be a havoc.

IJW
05-07-2010, 14:13
I dunno, I do think khorne prefers classic axe to mouth action for his killing (even if he does employ giant mortars), and that a marine with the mark of khorne would always pick up the chain axe rather than the heavy bolter.... but again, you could easily have a non-marked world eater who would rather be a havoc.
Nope, that's definitely part of the newer background. Khorne used to be the embodiment of martial prowess and killing, regardless of whether it was close combat or shooting.

barrangas
05-07-2010, 14:29
I've been working on ideas for a Cults of Chaos army list and have been wrestling with issues like Khorne Berserker Devastators, FA Plague Marine and Thousand Sons, and how to make vehicles unique. One of the first things I went with, after discussion, was to remove Raptors from the equation as they are supposed to be their own seperate cult in current fluff as jump packs were rare during the Heresy. My answer was to go with Bikers and regular Cult Troops that literally appear out of the Warp. I figure Khorne Havocs would have close combat options, K Sons Heavy Bolters with Inferno Rounds, and EC what you'd expect.

I did have ideas for certain unique units like K Sons Sorcerers that flew or a coven that cast rituals in place of heavy weapons.

Garanaul the Black
05-07-2010, 19:15
Yeah but it's a power that affects individuals. I'm more talking about unit changing abilities. So the Sorcerer buffs the 1ksons he's leading, rather than just standing there as an over glorified heavy weapon. :p


Like a psychic power equivalent of a Wolf Priest that grants Preferred Enemy. Not that great on a squad of 1K Sons as they get less attacks than a standard Marine, but it would go far to help the attacks they do get to mean more.


@Born Again: Do you have a link to those concept sketches for those of us that don't have access to the books?



I just don't want to feel like a ***** taking them.

Unfortunately, there seems to be an abundance of those types of choices in the Chaos Codex, heres hoping that will be alleviated when our book is redone (whenever that will be).

G

Earthbeard
05-07-2010, 22:20
Thousands post heresy suffer from the problem necrons do, no soul or grooviness.

Automatons - means people grab and feel less connected to the army as a whole.

Slaanesh is just as popular as the others, they are just seen less in tourny environ's which is far from the be all and end all of 40k.

TBH I've seen less and less support for Khorne over the years, as they no longer appear to be GW's favourite and often OP god.

xxRavenxx
05-07-2010, 22:27
Thousand sons were awesome in the last codex. Two wound marines (and terminators...) and a sorcerer in every squad. (And an entire squad of sorcs if they wanted them).

I expect its the usual ups and downs of new codex's. They'll probably be highly usable again next book.

Born Again
06-07-2010, 06:04
Yeah but it's a power that affects individuals. I'm more talking about unit changing abilities. So the Sorcerer buffs the 1ksons he's leading, rather than just standing there as an over glorified heavy weapon. :p

Ahh, I get you... while cool though, my squad sorcerers cost enough as is. Something like that would probably be massively over costed, and cause Eldar players to whine about how Guide is no longer unique...



@Born Again: Do you have a link to those concept sketches for those of us that don't have access to the books?


Unfortunately not, and I had a google and couldn't turn anything up. There are, however, some copies of the book on both Amazon and Ebay at the moment.

Garven Dreis
06-07-2010, 07:14
If you look at the CSM Bits section of the GW website, you can actually find Death Guard Havoc shoulderpads. This would lend to a bit of diversity with Havocs with a Mark of Nurgle.

MegaPope
06-07-2010, 09:51
TBH rather than twisting and turning about trying to create new Legion lists, it would be much better to make the Marks of Chaos (including the Mark of Chaos Undivided) a lot more comprehensive, so you could simply slap it onto whatever unit you wanted.

Also, bear in mind that complete 'Legion' or 'Mono-God' armies are going to be limited in scope compared to those formed of an alliance between several factions under an Undivided Lord.

Frankly, there are two things that IMO people should really NOT wish for in an updated C:CSMs:

1) Splitting the 'Cult' units totally away from everything else - this is my objection to Legion-only lists. It smacks of the worst kind of blinkered conservatism and small mindedness, and about the very concept that embodies the complete opposite! Have to opportunity to field your mono-god armies by all means, but don't carp on me because I like to mix things up a bit.

2) Special Character-driven army-wide special rules & abilities - no, just no. You know what would happen; we've seen it with SMs. It's also lazy rules design IMO. It also doesn't really work as a concept for CSMs - Chaos characters are, by their very natures, selfish. Even Fabius Bile (whose upgrades you have to pay for) is an exercise in risk management.

AndrewGPaul
06-07-2010, 12:01
The thing is, the Marks of CHaos aren't quite the same thing as being part of a Legion. It's most obvious in the case of the Mark of Tzeentch vs the Thousand Sons.

I can't see any reason why a sufficiently large Legion warband wouldn't be as tactically flexible as an equivalent Imperial Space Marine force, and I think it would be a good thing for the army lists to reflect that. That, to me, goes as much for the style of the list as much as its content.

OK, some things aren't available to traitor forces (Scouts, for example), and some bits of kit (plasma cannon, assault cannon, storm bolters, jump packs, etc) are rare to nonexistent because the Legions are 10 millennia behind the state of the art. I can accept that; keep Raptors and Obliterators as special units, no problem. But I don't see any good reason for any Legion force being denied access to Tactical, (non-jump) Assault and Devastator-analogues. If you want to restrict them to balance the list's other entries, that's fine; perhaps Tactical sergeants can't have power weapons, or Devastator squads are restricted, like Long Fangs, to 5-man units (or even bring back the sacred number for squad sizes). You can even have such that the Legions' special rules make it non-optimal for World Eaters to max out on Devastator squads, or for Thousand Sons to take Assault squads, without making it flat-out impossible.

I quite agree that a mixed warband force should be just as capable as a 'pure legion' force, and be able to take Legion troops (perhaps they cannot be taken as Troops, or are only 0-1 or something).

AndrewGPaul
06-07-2010, 12:10
Of course, the above is in the context of the current "special rules for everything" design ethos. Given my comments in the thread on combining codices, my actual preference would be for there to be just a "Chaos Space Marines" army list, with the Legions represented by tweaking the force org chart and restricting some options for various units. For example,

World Eaters/Khornate: Assault squads are Troops choices, squads have 8 men (or get a free special weapon at exactly 8 men).
Thousand Sons: Sorcerors can become part of a squad as its leader, squads have 9 men.
Emperor's Children/Slaanesh: Noise Marine weapons allowed as upgrades for all squads, squads of 6 (or multiples thereof?) men.
Death Guard/Nurgle: squads of 7, allow poisoned weapons as squad leader upgrades, restrict the numbers of vehicles.

You could also allow appropriate Legion troops better access to daemons (or reduce access, in the case of Night lords and Alpha Legion).

Grimtuff
06-07-2010, 15:19
Thousand sons were awesome in the last codex. Two wound marines (and terminators...) and a sorcerer in every squad. (And an entire squad of sorcs if they wanted them).

I expect its the usual ups and downs of new codex's. They'll probably be highly usable again next book.

Because "an army with 2 wounds has a lot going for it..." :rolleyes: (or however Pete Haine's infamous line went)

TS, although they had nicer rules in the last CSM codex IMO, were simply too expensive. The cost to make a CSM a TS was twice as much as all of the other marks and led to the above quote from the designer when quizzed on it.

This being in spite of the codex being made at a time in the game when there was not as much cover saves as today and heavy weapons were handed out like sweeties in 5 man Las/Plas squads.

So, yeah...

MegaPope
06-07-2010, 15:25
Of course, the above is in the context of the current "special rules for everything" design ethos. Given my comments in the thread on combining codices, my actual preference would be for there to be just a "Chaos Space Marines" army list, with the Legions represented by tweaking the force org chart and restricting some options for various units.

Ah, the approach from 3.5, which would've worked had it not been for the rampant fanboyism over Iron Warriors.

I must admit, I'm not really so hot on the whole sacred number thing being reflected on the tabletop, although altering the position of some units on the FOC and/or restricting/increasing access to certain units seems pretty sound.

I still think a lot may be tied up with how Marks of Chaos are handled. My own ideas are thus:
- Each 'Mark of the Great Powers' is a small package, consisting as far as possible of appropriate USRs rather than brand new stuff, since it will already be pretty clear on how it works.

- These then act as a 'template' which can be applied to any unit in the CSM army list, which start out as generic 'renegades' with the 'basic' Mark of Chaos Undivided (reroll failed Ld tests) as a counterpoint to the Loyalists' ATSKNF.

- Two of the Marks have, by necessity, slightly more complexity: these are the Mark of Slaanesh, where models with it get access to appropriate Noise Marine weaponry, and the Mark of Tzeentch, which is subdivided between a proper Mark of Tzeentch and a Rubric Mark, which can be given only to basic CSM units and Terminators.

- Crucially, not all of the Marks of the Great Powers make the bearer Fearless. The Mark of Khorne does, because it turns you into a psychopath, and the Rubric Mark does, because it turns you into a pinch of potash inside your armour. The Mark of Slaanesh makes you Stubborn, and the Mark of Nurgle does not affect your Ld at all.
This may seem odd, but I'm not too keen on the idea of too many all-Fearless armies knocking around (and also, Fearless itself is a bit of a double edged sword).

- Meanwhile, the Mark of Chaos Undivded gets a list of upgrades called Blessings of the Great Powers. In effect, these are 'mini-Marks' whose rules are identical to the current Marks of Chaos in the existing Codex. You can buy these for units and characters with the MCU to represent them hedging their bets with several of the powers (you can buy all of them for the same unit/character if you want). I'm also toying with the idea of needing to buy these Blessings for your commander if you want the appropriate Greater Marked troops in your force.
I call this the 'Little Abaddon Effect' ;).

For what I'm thinking, it would perhaps be more appropriate to think of it as 'Cult' armies rather than 'Legion' armies, but the overall effect is pretty similar, at least as far as the 'Big Four' Legions are concerned.

massey
06-07-2010, 18:19
Oh, you could do it. It isn't too hard, really. The easiest method would be to eliminate cult troops and turn the icons into marks. In other words, take the current book, dump the berzerkers, noise marines, etc. Instead of having an icon with a bearer, make it so you can take a mark for each member of the squad. Then give different wargear options based upon what mark you took. "A CSM with mark of slaanesh may take a sonic blaster at +5 points". It's right there in the list beside the meltagun entry. Now, that might reduce the specialization of some of the guys (no more WS 5 Furious Charge Berzerkers), but it would be consistent, and easy to do.

Really, the problem is that a lot of people want different things, and they aren't going to be happy with whatever GW does with the next book.

Xandros
08-07-2010, 02:09
The thing is, neither Thousand Sons, nor Noise Marines, have any need for - or appreciation of - love.

They kick ass though.

AndrewGPaul
08-07-2010, 07:44
That's not true; Plague Marines know Father Nurgle loves them. Why else would He bless them with such bounteous offerings of lovely disease and sweet decay?

Not to mention, Beasts of Nurgle. They're like puppies. Big, slimy, poisonous puppies ...

Kiro
10-07-2010, 18:02
Great thread, entirely too true.
As others have said, I'd have to agree: the popularity of Khorne and Nurgle would, in part, have a lot to due with their easily accesible imagery and ethos.

Xandros
10-07-2010, 19:29
Also simple tactics. There's few no-brainers with either noise marines or Thousand Sons.

Icraig33
11-07-2010, 02:15
I thought Tzeetch was the most popular of the 4, then Khorne, then Nurgle, then Slaneesh (though if i remember well, Slaneesh is the most underestimated and the strongest of the 4, speaking by Warhammer 40K lore)

massey
11-07-2010, 03:09
I thought Tzeetch was the most popular of the 4, then Khorne, then Nurgle, then Slaneesh (though if i remember well, Slaneesh is the most underestimated and the strongest of the 4, speaking by Warhammer 40K lore)

Nope. Khorne and Nurgle are the most popular. As far as fluff goes, Khorne is normally the strongest, but Nurgle's power waxes and wanes, so he is occasionally more powerful. Tzeentch is the next most powerful. Slaanesh is the youngest, and the weakest.

RunepriestRidcully
25-07-2010, 13:31
The new plastic horrors seem to suggest that GW does not consider Slannesh or Tzeentch worthy of decent looking troops choice daemons for some reason.
Does anyone hope one day the tables will turn and Khorne and Nurgle will experiance 6-10 years in the cold?

Zweischneid
25-07-2010, 13:39
The new plastic horrors seem to suggest that GW does not consider Slannesh or Tzeentch worthy of decent looking troops choice daemons for some reason.


The new Horrors are awsome. I don't even play Tzeentch, but those'll go into my CSM army as lesser Demons pushing out those annoyingly anorexic bloodletters. These Horrors are far and wide the best basic/troop Demon-minis GW has ever produced.

RunepriestRidcully
25-07-2010, 15:25
They just seem so... goofy to me, not lovecraftian, horror inspiring daemons of insanity, they just look goofy, almost like something from Disney.
Each to his own I guess, but I agree with you about the anorexic Bloodlettere, tis a problem the noble Saurus suffer from as well, a lack of muscle that would make you think they were S2 rather then 4.
Though Does anyone think FW are going to do TS, I hope so, since if they went back to the RT Jes Goodwin Sculpts like they did for the Plague marines it would be brilliant, and save a load of greenstuff on my part.
But the fact it is Nurgle and Khorne that have got the FW attention raises the question: Are Khorne and Nurgle well suported because they are populer, or populer becouse they are well supprted, I believe it is the latter since no thought is needed to use them, and because they have the FW units they do not suffer as badly from the effects of the current codex

Zweischneid
25-07-2010, 16:08
They just seem so... goofy to me, not lovecraftian, horror inspiring daemons of insanity, they just look goofy, almost like something from Disney.
Each to his own I guess, but I agree with you about the anorexic Bloodlettere, tis a problem the noble Saurus suffer from as well, a lack of muscle that would make you think they were S2 rather then 4.
Though Does anyone think FW are going to do TS, I hope so, since if they went back to the RT Jes Goodwin Sculpts like they did for the Plague marines it would be brilliant, and save a load of greenstuff on my part.
But the fact it is Nurgle and Khorne that have got the FW attention raises the question: Are Khorne and Nurgle well suported because they are populer, or populer becouse they are well supprted, I believe it is the latter since no thought is needed to use them, and because they have the FW units they do not suffer as badly from the effects of the current codex

Honestly, I don't buy this conspiracy argument of "they are popular because they are well supported."

There're plenty of FW models that are not even legal in normal GW rules and raise plenty of cash for them... funky Tau Suits, hell even civilian personel, gazillion tank variants, Super-heavy Flyers, etc.., etc.. . On the nurgle-front, there is stuff like Blight Drones, etc.., nothing of which has "legal" rules, yet must presumably be popular with Nurgle Fans despite not being "effective" in a tournament-play sense of the word.

Yet there are no models for Noise Marines, which do exist in a perfectly viable GW Codex and do have relatively descent rule. At least nothing that would preclude hobbyists from using them in fluffly/friendly games at least.

Honestly, I can only assume that FW produces what it produces, because even "unsupported" units like Tau Tetras are occasionally more popular (i.e. better business) than Noise Marines.

I don't think they "force" anything on their customers and if there'd be enough hobbyists that would shell out money for some spiffy Noise-Marines, FW would put them in the pipeline in a heartbeat.

RunepriestRidcully
25-07-2010, 19:45
I thought they published rules for their stuff in the Imperial Armour books, and so have "legal" rules, and the plague marines came out after the current codex, in which guess what was one of the best units in terms of effectivness, that's right, Plague marines. Plus it is not like they even tried anything Tzeenthcy or Slaaneshi, and those then proceded to be flops, they have just not done them, and I do not belive there are more Grey Knight players then Thousand Sons or Noise Marine player (I am a Grey Knight player as well, in 7 years I can count on one hand the amount of fellow Grey Knight players, we are rare, proberbly about the same as Thousand Sons or Noise Marines) and yet they have done Grey Knight stuff (which is really, really nice, especially the dreadnoughts, mind you it seems any dreadnought is really nice.) Plus FW do Specialist Games, and they are not known for the amount of people who play them (Though this may be countered by the fact GW does not really support them.) So it seems hard to pin it down to low demand.

Garven Dreis
25-07-2010, 22:28
On the nurgle-front, there is stuff like Blight Drones, etc.., nothing of which has "legal" rules, yet must presumably be popular with Nurgle Fans despite not being "effective" in a tournament-play sense of the word.



Nurgle Blight Drones not being "effective"? They're pretty much the best FA option for CSM

DeviantApostle
25-07-2010, 23:04
Does anyone hope one day the tables will turn and Khorne and Nurgle will experiance 6-10 years in the cold?

No, for two reasons. The first is that this has been going on since Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Realm of Chaos, so try 21+ years out in the cold. The second is, I don't want to take other people's shiny toys away. You love Khorne or Nurgle? More power to you. I'd just like to get some shinies for my army, I think Khorne and Nurgle have enough to be getting on with.