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Farseer Dave
04-07-2010, 22:00
Hey Guys,

One of the more intresting phenomena around our Hobby is the widespread hatred of Ultramarines (deemed the Smurfs). I was always curious why ppl hated these guys so much? when I see the Ultramarines I see a Chapter that Possess an inner conflict , how can they continue to follow an incresingly outdated Codex and hence preserve the great Legacy laid down by their Primarch while at the same time meet the threats from new foes like the Necrons and the Tyranids. I think its kinda deep that they are forced to sometimes Abandon what is essentially their Bible for the good of the Imperium..

A few things I guess spring to mind , Games Workshop (in particular Matt ''I hate Eldar'' Ward) have perhaps presented the Ultramarines in a kinda fan-boy manner in the codex.. Rather than look at the Deep and in my opinion fantastic Lore hidden away at the core of this Chapter they have instead focused on falcon punching Avatars and writing nonsense like ''many chapters aspire to be Ultramarines''.. Is the Cheesy Lore responsible for some of the hatred Directed towards the 13th Legion?

Is it Jealousy of the favouritism GW holds for the space Marines that couses ppl to hate the Ultramarines? these guys are the ''poster boys'' for Space marines I guess and perhaps when neglected ppl like Dark Eldar players see that Space marines have gotten yet another dred kit or yet another Codex they lash out at the Poster boy Ultramarines?

So I ask you guys! why is it that the Ultramarines take so much flak from the 40k Community ?

Just my Thoughts,
Farseer Dave.

Deus Mechanicus
04-07-2010, 22:02
A few things I guess spring to mind , Games Workshop (in particular Matt ''I hate Eldar'' Ward) have perhaps presented the Ultramarines in a kinda fan-boy manner in the codex.. Rather than look at the Deep and in my opinion fantastic Lore hidden away at the core of this Chapter they have instead focused on falcon punching Avatars and writing nonsense like ''many chapters aspire to be Ultramarines''.. Is the Cheesy Lore responsible for some of the hatred Directed towards the 13th Legion?

Yes.
The rest of this post is brought to you by filler.

Setesh
04-07-2010, 22:04
'and the greatest of these...are the ULTRAMARINES."- john hurt ;)

Vandelan
04-07-2010, 22:06
Ultramarines are vanilla and practically rammed down people's throats. A lot of Space Marine players are still miffed about the 5th ed 'dex being Codex: Ultramarines.

Drasanil
04-07-2010, 22:06
Uhm, well if you want to go to 1D4chan and look up Ultramarines, they have an entire section aptly named "Quotes Rage By"... It's quite amusing and informative.

Helicon_One
04-07-2010, 22:07
Its mostly just down to over-exposure.

There are a thousand or so other chapters out there but you can't throw a stone without hitting Ultramarines.

Logan_uc
04-07-2010, 22:42
sorry for the doble post

Logan_uc
04-07-2010, 22:45
1- there fulff just isnt good, they look like plot armoured GW glory boys with nothing special, and thats what they are.

2- codex astartes is a joke, playing by the book (literally) isnt a good thing in war, you need to adapt and innovate and use your special skills. oh and you need to be a very arrogant **** to think you can make a book that dictates every aspect of warfare.

3- Papa smurf, the D bag primarch, he is just a incompetent horus wannabe that almost made a new civil war because he wanted every one to do thing his way, and of all primarch he was the blandest.

4- they arent convincing, thay are like that guy that makes great thing but when you meet him you simply cant believe its true, because he is so meh.

5- every one and there dog that plays other marines cant stand that there chapter isent the best.

I think that sums it up.

Hunger
04-07-2010, 22:46
I've disliked them since I started the hobby back in the early 90s. They just seemed like they were trying to hard - ties done up to eleven, armour polished to a shine, salutes practised to perfection.

They remind me of vomit-inducing pop singers (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6165-5652GL._SS500_.jpg) whose faces have been stretched into whiter-than-white permanent smiles that make you ball your fists with rage, and whose cringeworthy songs make you want to push a cordless drill into your inner ears.

Garven Dreis
04-07-2010, 22:49
I'd argue that the current Codex, while Ultramarines fluff, is infact Codex: Salamanders, seeing that's the most powerful and probably, at least in my experience, the most common build.

TheLaughingGod
04-07-2010, 22:51
It's the fact that Ultramarines are now supposed to be the very best. Which is ridiculous, because every other Chapter is the BEST at something, and yet we're suppose to believe that the Ultramarines are not only the GREATEST, but that EVERY other Chapter wants to be JUST LIKE THEM? Really...? Come on now...

Their battles in the 5th Ed Codex are just comical. Thunderhawks outmaneuvering Nightwings, Scouts defeating Aspect Warriors, the ENTIRE chapter is less than 30 days out from Planet Podunk, Dreadnoughts holding back a tide of Necrons, just the general way that Ward writes is "Durr, Eldar are teh dumb." and the Ultramarines hack and slash their way through their mentally challenged opponents and they still try to make them look like super-awesome heroes!

Sir_Turalyon
04-07-2010, 23:14
Real life reasons - they are forced down our throats for no particular reason. They aren't specially interesting, instead presented as "they are cool because they are cool because we said so".

Background reasons - The fact that their Primarch's gimmick was organization? Nothing glamorous in chapter following example of natural born quatermaster.

The by the book approach to everything? The fact Guillman tried to force his book down the throats of his brothers, and was responsible for alienating at least two of them, turning them traitor (only Emperor's record is worse here)?

The fact they didn't take part in Heresy, then showed up on winners side after the fighting was done, with more marines than eighter loyalists or traitors had left? Then they used threat of their numbers to make Guillman new warmaster?

The fact that after Guilmann made himself warmaster, he broke other Legions, ostensibly to make sure no man commanded more than one tousand marines, yet somehow he made sure that chapter master of Ultramarines is considered superior to his peers, position which Calgar still enjoys after ten millenia? In other words, used his authority to undermine position of every other Primarch while securing sole position of power to himself and his successors? Then he made them read his book they refused to touch for last 200 years?

The suspition that after all was done they rewrote history to present themselves as heroes? There is plenty of contradictions in fluff regarding Heresy and pre-Heresy performance of Legions; somehow, when you assume fluff giving credit to one Legion - Ultramarines - was added later as propagada, most of remaining background fits together with almost no contradictions.

barrangas
04-07-2010, 23:21
2- codex astartes is a joke, playing by the book (literally) isnt a good thing in war, you need to adapt and innovate and use your special skills. oh and you need to be a very arrogant **** to think you can make a book that dictates every aspect of warfare.

Alpha Legion represent lml!

They're the elves of 40k, they don't loose unless it's a small lose that prove how heroic they are or bags them a primarch.

Gutted
04-07-2010, 23:22
It's the fact that Ultramarines are now supposed to be the very best. Which is ridiculous, because every other Chapter is the BEST at something, and yet we're suppose to believe that the Ultramarines are not only the GREATEST, but that EVERY other Chapter wants to be JUST LIKE THEM? Really...? Come on now...


I always thought they were the best because they are not over specialised or defective and the legacy of their primarch was one of culture, tactics, and strategy (that and a rather civilised pocket empire for them to rule).

Thus it is no suprise that they have the best record and reputation because all the other are less flexible, less diplomatic, more angsty or too busy riding cybernetic mutant wolves around.



Their battles in the 5th Ed Codex are just comical. Thunderhawks outmaneuvering Nightwings, Scouts defeating Aspect Warriors, the ENTIRE chapter is less than 30 days out from Planet Podunk, Dreadnoughts holding back a tide of Necrons, just the general way that Ward writes is "Durr, Eldar are teh dumb." and the Ultramarines hack and slash their way through their mentally challenged opponents and they still try to make them look like super-awesome heroes!

Oh agreed.

Corax
04-07-2010, 23:52
The Ultramarines suffer from the same problem as Mary Sue characters in fiction; perfection is boring. Flaws, limitations, weaknesses, etc. are what makes a character interesting and makes their struggles (against whatever adversity they face) compelling. When you compare them to the other famous chapters, you can see the blandness of their narrative:

Dark Angels - Cursed to bear the burdens of their dark secrets, they live in constant fear that the sins of their past will be discovered and they will be shamed and destroyed.
Narrative hooks: Shame, regret, fear, failure

Space Wolves - Defined by an internal dichotomy between brute animal savagery and a strong sense of justice and humanism, they are the "fish out of water" within the imperial fold. They struggle not only for their right to operate according to their own beliefs, but also against their own genetic legacy.
Narrative hooks: Struggle for humanity (their own), independence in a repressive society; holding to ones own beliefs.

Blood Angels - The most tragic of all. Once the most blessed and perfect legion, the caprices of fate have brought them low, turning them into something so much less than they were. Like all vampire stories, the Blood Angels narrative is about the struggle to retain their humanity and dignity in the face of unimaginable tragedy.
Narrative hooks: Misfortune, tragedy, doom, loss of humanity.

As you can see these chapters all have strong narrative concepts that drive them.

On the other hand, what drives the Ultramarines narrative? They have no historical baggage to speak of; they came out of the Heresy smelling of roses. They have no genetic faults or defects to debase them physically; there is no humanist struggle against internal challenges. What is their narrative hook?

Is it this? :angel:

Farseer Dave
04-07-2010, 23:58
On the other hand, what drives the Ultramarines narrative? They have no historical baggage to speak of; they came out of the Heresy smelling of roses. They have no genetic faults or defects to debase them physically; there is no humanist struggle against internal challenges. What is their narrative hook?

Is it this? :angel:

I went into it abit in my OP , they do indeed struggle against internal challanges presented by the fact their sacred tome is slowly but surly being outdated hence their entire bedrock is being shaken.
Imadgine how hard it must be for them to not follow the codex in order to save the Imperium , like when Clagar first encountered the Nids.
these guys follow the codex with the same passion of a modern day religious extremist so to openly have to contradict their ''bible'' so to speak is in my mind anyway a huge internal strugle.

I think the problem lies in the way their fluff is put across but to say they have no deep potential or narrative is simply incorrect imho.

Farseer Dave

The Inevitable One
05-07-2010, 00:30
It is not that I hate them, but they do steal the spotlight from other Chapters such as the Iron Hands. In the current codex there is only one picture of an Iron Hands model which is at the bottom of the page and if I recall correctly in the corner. Not only that but they replace them with the Crimson Fists and just give a half-ass description of the Iron Hands with something along the lines of: this was a first founding chapter that uses bionics.

To be honest if they (Ultramarines) are ever going to be well liked, they have to tone it down and give more credit to other Chapters.

Gutted
05-07-2010, 00:35
It is not that I hate them, but they do steal the spotlight from other Chapters such as the Iron Hands. In the current codex there is only one picture of an Iron Hands model which is at the bottom of the page and if I recall correctly in the corner. Not only that but they replace them with the Crimson Fists and just give a half-ass description of the Iron Hands with something along the lines of: this was a first founding chapter that uses bionics.

The rumour I heard was C:SM was originally going to be C:UM (which may or may not have had the non-UM characters included as a bonus). If that is true than the whole book starts making more sense.

The Inevitable One
05-07-2010, 00:41
The rumour I heard was C:SM was originally going to be C:UM (which may or may not have had the non-UM characters included as a bonus). If that is true than the whole book starts making more sense.

It would not surprise me considering the 1st edition codex for Space Marines was called Codex: Ultramarines.

deacon52
05-07-2010, 00:55
basically they are the teachers pet. no body likes the taechers pet. thats why dirty harry, rambo, and wolverine type characters are more popular. everyone in society adheres to the laws and pressures that we put on each other to conform. so when we get a chance to watch a movie, read a book, play a game. those anti heroic type characters, who say f--k the establishment are going to appeal to our basic wants and desires to do the same. and of course ultramarines are the pin up boys for the establisment. so they take the brunt of the feelings.

Lord_Crull
05-07-2010, 01:08
how can they continue to follow an incresingly outdated Codex .

Actually no. The Codex itself get's updated quite often. Agemman references writing new portions of the Codex and it contains wisdom from hunderds of warriors.


The Codex Astartes laid down the tactical doctrines of the Imperium's fighting forces and was to grow and evolve over the millennia into a massive tome that detailed everything from battlefield stratagems to uniform markings for various squad types.



2- codex astartes is a joke, playing by the book (literally) isnt a good thing in war, you need to adapt and innovate and use your special skills.


Actually no. All modern militaries have drill books and tactical treasties.


oh and you need to be a very arrogant **** to think you can make a book that dictates every aspect of warfare.


So all the military drill instructors and generals at West Point are idiots?

Or for that matter a superhuman military genius with centuries of combat experiance plus wisdom from hunderds of other warriors (Including other Primarchs) are all idiots?



3- Papa smurf, the D bag primarch, he is just a incompetent horus wannabe that almost made a new civil war because he wanted every one to do thing his way, and of all primarch he was the blandest.


Actually no. As much blame, or even more, can be directed at Rogal Dorn. Dorn at that time was pretty much blinded by greif and rage.



4- they arent convincing, thay are like that guy that makes great thing but when you meet him you simply cant believe its true, because he is so meh.


I'm not even quite sure what this means.


The Ultramarines suffer from the same problem as Mary Sue characters in fiction; perfection is boring. Flaws, limitations, weaknesses, etc. are what makes a character interesting and makes their struggles (against whatever adversity they face) compelling. When you compare them to the other famous chapters, you can see the blandness of their narrative:


Not really. All that it takes is some imagination. The Ultramarines are Roman-Spartans in Space. They guard the Eastern Fringe far from the main Imperial center of power. They were the first to face the Tyranids of all the Marines. They are the center that helps hold off the Tau, the Ork the Tyranid.

They don't need mutations or grimdark curses to win their battles. Only simple training and professionalism.



Space Wolves - Defined by an internal dichotomy between brute animal savagery and a strong sense of justice and humanism, they are the "fish out of water" within the imperial fold. They struggle not only for their right to operate according to their own beliefs, but also against their own genetic legacy.
Narrative hooks: Struggle for humanity (their own), independence in a repressive society; holding to ones own beliefs.


I actually consider the Wolves to more bigger Mary Sues than the Ultramarines. They get special geneseed with practicly no drawback. They get to flaunt the Imperium's rules with again no real drawback. They get to hit on women, drink ale, etc, etc and no other Chapter has this. The Fang is stated to be the strongest fortress in the Imperium. The Space Wolves can use Imperial Navy ships.

Ultimately they have fewer weaknesses when trading for strengths.



On the other hand, what drives the Ultramarines narrative? They have no historical baggage to speak of; they came out of the Heresy smelling of roses. They have no genetic faults or defects to debase them physically; there is no humanist struggle against internal challenges. What is their narrative hook?


Ultramarines- They are the warriors of the Eastern Fringe. They work to get along and get the job done. They epitomize what it means to be Astartes for most chapters. They were the first to face the Tyranids and hate them the most. They also regulate the Charadon sector and live closely with the people of their homeworld. Ulike other chapters they are raised in military barracks. They helped hold the Imperium together during the Scouring.

Narrative Hooks: The Tyrranic Wars. The Guardians of the Eastern Fringe. Holding out against an alien sea of darkness. Holding the Imperium together during the Scouring, current enroachment by the Tau, keeping back the orks of Charadon, M'Kar's recent invasion. The whole relationship between Astartes and the people that they directly rule and live near.

There is plenty if you start to set your mind to it.



The by the book approach to everything? The fact Guillman tried to force his book down the throats of his brothers, and was responsible for alienating at least two of them, turning them traitor (only Emperor's record is worse here)?


No he did not. None of the loyalist primarchs turned traitor after the Heresy and Guilliman held discussion with Corax about the fleets.



The fact they didn't take part in Heresy,

Actually no. They fought against the Word Bearers and destroyed one of Horus's renforcement fleets. In fact the Ultramarines did not even get word of the Heresy until the last minute.



The fact that after Guilmann made himself warmaster.

No he did not. He was charged by the High Lords of Terra to do his duties.

Insignium Astartes


The High Lords tasked the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman with the job of reordering the Imperial military forces. His first duty was to revise the organisation of the Space Marines and to codify their institutions, doctrines and armorials.


yet somehow he made sure that chapter master of Ultramarines is considered superior to his peers, position which Calgar still enjoys after ten millenia? .

Nope, only amoung Ultramarine sucessors. Not to mention Calgar is not ten millenia old.



The suspition that after all was done they rewrote history to present themselves as heroes? There is plenty of contradictions in fluff regarding Heresy and pre-Heresy performance of Legions; somehow, when you assume fluff giving credit to one Legion - Ultramarines - was added later as propagada, most of remaining background fits together with almost no contradictions.

What are you talking about? I never saw any contridiction.



Scouts defeating Aspect Warriors,

In ambushes, in terrian they had prep time on. While led by Telion.


the ENTIRE chapter is less than 30 days out from Planet Podunk, heroes!

So what? It was never stated how close Commrath was.


Dreadnoughts holding back a tide of Necrons,heroes!

Actually more like a Venerable Dreadnought and the entire Second Company.


Uhm, well if you want to go to 1D4chan and look up Ultramarines, they have an entire section aptly named "Quotes Rage By"... It's quite amusing and informative.

Not really. 4chan is good for only joke memes and nothing else. Their so called articles are filled with more holes than swiss cheese and outright ignore stated fluff.

Firmlog
05-07-2010, 01:18
Much has been said above and I agree about why people dislike the Ultramarines. As far as theme they were/are supposed to be a Roman legion type mythology, which hasn't been followed all to well by models or fluff, though pics seem pretty consistent.

However there is hate for all marine chapters:

Space Wolves: space puppies, space vikings etc...
Dark Angels: closet homosexuals, traitors?
Blood Angels: bat nipples anyone?

there are others though those are a few right off the top of my head. Of course some of that is the models, but I have heard many slants against particular chapters throughout my time playing.

People call ultramarines smurfs cause they are blue pure and simple. They are common, more so since the new codex. Though I believe i have known a lot of Ultramarine armies since second ed. I think I've seen more insults such as: Bling Marines, and pimp daddy Calgar.

Sebavin
05-07-2010, 01:21
I saw someone say that Calgar has been Chapter master for 10,000 years?
Not even close sorry just wanted to clear that up Calgar isn't cool enough to be the oldest Chapter Master

negZero
05-07-2010, 01:26
One of the more intresting phenomena around our Hobby is the widespread hatred of Ultramarines (deemed the Smurfs). I was always curious why ppl hated these guys so much? when I see the Ultramarines I see a Chapter that Possess an inner conflict , how can they continue to follow an incresingly outdated Codex and hence preserve the great Legacy laid down by their Primarch while at the same time meet the threats from new foes like the Necrons and the Tyranids. I think its kinda deep that they are forced to sometimes Abandon what is essentially their Bible for the good of the Imperium..
Problem is the Ultramarines have never followed there own rules. They unlike almost every other chapter including the non-Codex control 9 systems. O and lets not forget that they somehow got there own special bullets even though thats controlled by Admech doctrine of everything comes from an old computer


A few things I guess spring to mind , Games Workshop (in particular Matt ''I hate Eldar'' Ward) have perhaps presented the Ultramarines in a kinda fan-boy manner in the codex.. Rather than look at the Deep and in my opinion fantastic Lore hidden away at the core of this Chapter they have instead focused on falcon punching Avatars and writing nonsense like ''many chapters aspire to be Ultramarines''.. Is the Cheesy Lore responsible for some of the hatred Directed towards the 13th Legion?
It sure doesn't help that GW's official policy is that Ultramarine == 1 Ork Waargh


Is it Jealousy of the favouritism GW holds for the space Marines that couses ppl to hate the Ultramarines? these guys are the ''poster boys'' for Space marines I guess and perhaps when neglected ppl like Dark Eldar players see that Space marines have gotten yet another dred kit or yet another Codex they lash out at the Poster boy Ultramarines?
This really doesn't help them since DE and Crons playing with codices that are almost decade old, while Ultramarines got models released for the Legion of the Damned something nobody in there right mind uses.

Lord_Crull
05-07-2010, 01:31
Problem is the Ultramarines have never followed there own rules. They unlike almost every other chapter including the non-Codex control 9 systems. .

There is nothing in the Codex that states that chapters can only have one homeworld. Indeed, the Marine book even says other chapters rule entire systems or sub-sectors. In fact the White Consuls control fifty systems.

In fact the rulebook even says more and more Marine chapters are ruling worlds now because of the Time of Ending.


O and lets not forget that they somehow got there own special bullets even though thats controlled by Admech doctrine of everything comes from an old computer


Are you talking about Sternguard? Everyone has those.:eyebrows:

metro_gnome
05-07-2010, 01:35
hmmm... i've never met an ultramarine player... do they even exist?

I guess most chapters do "aspire to be like the Ultramarines"...
probably because most chapters are sucessors of... wait for it... the Ultramarines...
I know you think you're chapter is a speshul snoflayk... but there's really no reason for GW to talk about them...

DeviantApostle
05-07-2010, 02:10
My hatred of Ultramarines stems from their name and colour scheme. I can only imagine the conversation behind closed doors of design and development:

"Zo my god! I got a great idea, you guyz! There's a colour called Ultramarine... we can create an army of ultimate warriors and call them Ultramarines and use the colour!"

"Uh, Bob, Ultramarine is a seriously crappy blue that doesn't fit in the least with our grimdark setting... particularly paired with yellow. And the word play isn't even that clever. Not to mention, your 'Ultramarines' don't perform anything like you describe, being the tactical marine army... look, Space Wolves do everything better than they do by design."

"I ignore your logic! Ignore!"

TheLaughingGod
05-07-2010, 02:41
In ambushes, in terrian they had prep time on. While led by Telion.
Ambushes can tip a fire fight in your favor, but it won't give you an automatic victory. History is full of battles in which ambushees turn the tide on their attackers and rout the foe. Warp Spiders are simply better armed, armoured, more manueverable, more skilled, better trained and more experienced than scouts. The ONLY thing scouts have going for them, is big muscles. That shouldn't grant them a victory. Even if Telion was there, any given Exarch is going to be more experienced and a greater fighter than he is. Your logic is flawed.



So what? It was never stated how close Commrath was.
So the fluff often states that it takes as long as a YEAR or more before help can arrive when a distress call is sent out. Even then it's usually only a Strike Cruiser or a Guard Regiment or two. Are you telling me that ALL ten companies of the Ultramarines had nothing better to do across their mini empire with all this fighting of the Tyranids, depantsing the Tau and halting Ork Waaaghs that they were able to get everything together in 30 days? I cannot imagine Calgar would pull his men off the front line just because he wants to protect a shiny wand.




Actually more like a Venerable Dreadnought and the entire Second Company.
The Dreadnought explodes and wipes out the ENTIRE space port and all the Necrons there. Really? Come on now.

Aliarzathanil
05-07-2010, 02:46
I've played Dark Angels since second edition, but I've always been a fan. Its a matter of taste, I guess. I like Batman (Dark Angels) but Superman is okay too.


I sincerely believe that GW pushes them because they have a very simple color scheme for a beginner to paint to a decent standard.

gwarsh41
05-07-2010, 02:51
I just dont really like the stock line marines. I prefer something a bit more wild.... Like space wolves, Daemons, and now Orks. The fluff I hear about marines is that they are all pretty uptight too. Calgar apparently has an eldar up his butt, on the other hand, Grimnar is an all around nice guy. Who would you want to follow?

Gutted
05-07-2010, 03:18
My hatred of Ultramarines stems from their name and colour scheme. I can only imagine the conversation behind closed doors of design and development:

"Zo my god! I got a great idea, you guyz! There's a colour called Ultramarine... we can create an army of ultimate warriors and call them Ultramarines and use the colour!"

"Uh, Bob, Ultramarine is a seriously crappy blue that doesn't fit in the least with our grimdark setting... particularly paired with yellow. And the word play isn't even that clever. Not to mention, your 'Ultramarines' don't perform anything like you describe, being the tactical marine army... look, Space Wolves do everything better than they do by design."

"I ignore your logic! Ignore!"

...this is the game with Space Wolves that ride giant wolves into battle and Blood Angels who go bezerk and drink blood.


I've played Dark Angels since second edition, but I've always been a fan. Its a matter of taste, I guess. I like Batman (Dark Angels) but Superman is okay too.

Nitpick NightHaunter is Batman. Dark Angels are Gambit.

Lord_Crull
05-07-2010, 03:18
Ambushes can tip a fire fight in your favor, but it won't give you an automatic victory. History is full of battles in which ambushees turn the tide on their attackers and rout the foe. Warp Spiders are simply better armed, armoured, more manueverable, more skilled, better trained and more experienced than scouts. The ONLY thing scouts have going for them, is big muscles. That shouldn't grant them a victory. Even if Telion was there, any given Exarch is going to be more experienced and a greater fighter than he is. Your logic is flawed.


No, yours is. All the book says is that the Warp Spiders were ambushed. It does not even say if the ambush was sucessful. Not to mention History is also full of examples were less well-equipped and trained warriors wiped out their enemies. Not to mention they had time to prepare the terrian before the Eldar arrived. In addition the section also notes that the Scouts had armored support from Predators to aid them.



So the fluff often states that it takes as long as a YEAR or more before help can arrive when a distress call is sent out.

Not really. The Warp is a strange thing. And we still don't know how close Ultramar was.


Even then it's usually only a Strike Cruiser or a Guard Regiment or two.

Usually is not when the Eldar get involved or when vital chapter relics are threatened. The place was the burial ground of one of the Ultramarines mightest heroes and it was a chapter shrine.. The Space Wolves arrived with most of their chapter in Grey Hunter to defend a Chapter shrine.


Are you telling me that ALL ten companies of the Ultramarines had nothing better to do across their mini empire with all this fighting of the Tyranids, depantsing the Tau and halting Ork Waaaghs that they were able to get everything together in 30 days?.

Yes, for all we know the chapter could be gathered together for a renembrance day (Like the Crimson Fists at Rynn's World's for example) or resuppyling or conducting a chapter wide training exercise. Or they could be returning from a Crusade.


I cannot imagine Calgar would pull his men off the front line just because he wants to protect a shiny wand.


It was not just a wand, but Orar's Tomb. No Marine chapter would allow the tomb of one of their most honored heroes to he threatened by a mighty alien warhost.



The Dreadnought explodes and wipes out the ENTIRE space port and all the Necrons there. Really? Come on now.

I was not talking abotu that actually, but the erronous assumption that it was just a dreadnought that held off the Necrons, it was not. The closest that comes to it was the Dread holding only a part of the city, and against unknown odds.


I just dont really like the stock line marines. I prefer something a bit more wild.... Like space wolves, Daemons, and now Orks. The fluff I hear about marines is that they are all pretty uptight too. Calgar apparently has an eldar up his butt, on the other hand, Grimnar is an all around nice guy. Who would you want to follow?

Actually no, Calgar is noted in the fluff as being a good negotiator and good with the populance while beloved by his troops. In Chapter's Due is is a fairly easy going guy.

WolfGuardChris
05-07-2010, 03:29
i personally like ultramaines but when GW basically says these guys are the best your basically telling every jon UM player their chapters are second rate. Of course that's gonna cause some resentment.

Wolf Lord Balrog
05-07-2010, 03:33
I don't hate the Ultrasmurfs. I just find them bland. Ok, they are professional soldiers. Who in 40k isn't, except Orks and IG Penal Legionnaires? So they have a string of impressive victories under their belt? Its nothing any other First Founding Chapter can't also claim. The Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templar, and Crimson Fists are all more interesting in different ways.

Now I do hate the Sparkly Vampire Angels, but that's another story... :D

TheLaughingGod
05-07-2010, 03:48
No, yours is. All the book says is that the Warp Spiders were ambushed. It does not even say if the ambush was sucessful. Not to mention History is also full of examples were less well-equipped and trained warriors wiped out their enemies. Not to mention they had time to prepare the terrian before the Eldar arrived. In addition the section also notes that the Scouts had armored support from Predators to aid them. The implication of the text is that Calgar soundly defeated the Eldar at every turn. And no, history is NOT full of those examples. They appear but a few times and are vastly outshadowed by the amount of times superior troops carried the day despite numerical and situational odds being against them. As for Predator support, it makes it quite clear that the dead forests acted as refuge from the Predators. So really, it was a bunch of heavily armoured teleporting elite special forces with guns that seek out and shred flesh and a thousand years of combat experience up against a bunch of large retarded children with a couple of metal plates sewn into their bright blue fatigues.




Not really. The Warp is a strange thing. And we still don't know how close Ultramar was. Yes really. The fluff makes it quite clear that it takes some time for responses of that magnitude to be gathered and to transit through the Warp. The fact that they were able to gather the ENTIRE full strength chapter and arrive in 30 days is miraculous to the point of ridiculous.




Usually is not when the Eldar get involved or when vital chapter relics are threatened. The place was the burial ground of one of the Ultramarines mightest heroes and it was a chapter shrine.. The Space Wolves arrived with most of their chapter in Grey Hunter to defend a Chapter shrine.
It's not EVER realistic. The Space Wolves aren't much better with their underwater battles against the Tau.




Yes, for all we know the chapter could be gathered together for a renembrance day (Like the Crimson Fists at Rynn's World's for example) or resuppyling or conducting a chapter wide training exercise. Or they could be returning from a Crusade. The book states that he had 5 full companies under his direct command and 12 strike groups of "50 to 100" marines. Unlikely he was returning from a Crusade at full strength. Even if they were all gathered on Macragge or somewhere for a big party, the race of aliens that Sees the future probably would have picked a different time to attack.




It was not just a wand, but Orar's Tomb. No Marine chapter would allow the tomb of one of their most honored heroes to he threatened by a mighty alien warhost. Clearly Calgar didn't care that much about the tomb. He removed the Sceptre of Galaxian and moved it to the Fortress of Hera. Nothing was done about the Tomb.




I was not talking abotu that actually, but the erronous assumption that it was just a dreadnought that held off the Necrons, it was not. The closest that comes to it was the Dread holding only a part of the city, and against unknown odds. Or facing down a Monolith one-on-one and coming out on top?

Point of interest: Stop revising your posts after you post them. It makes it impossible for anyone to respond to you.

Drasanil
05-07-2010, 03:53
Not really. 4chan is good for only joke memes and nothing else. Their so called articles are filled with more holes than swiss cheese and outright ignore stated fluff.

:rolleyes:

We get it. You. Love. Ultramarines.


Now, let the rest of us have a bit of fun without teacher's pet trying to correct everything every two seconds. Perception matters, in case you haven't noticed, and Ultramarines have a serious problem in that regard.

Lord_Crull
05-07-2010, 03:59
The implication of the text is that Calgar soundly defeated the Eldar at every turn.

At every turn? The account says that the Ultramarines defense was ''hard-pressed'' and it goes on to say they would not have been able to face a second assault on the ''fractured defenses'' I would hardly say that.


And no, history is NOT full of those examples. They appear but a few times and are vastly outshadowed by the amount of times superior troops carried the day despite numerical and situational odds being against them. .

No, not really. Unless you want to start fielding some examples you can't prove that.


As for Predator support, it makes it quite clear that the dead forests acted as refuge from the Predators.

Refuge for the Predators? My copy has them driving the Warp Spiders into the Forests.


So really, it was a bunch of heavily armoured teleporting elite special forces with guns that seek out and shred flesh and a thousand years of combat experience up against a bunch of large retarded children with a couple of metal plates sewn into their bright blue fatigues.


I'm not quite sure if you are serious with this, or just being ignorant here. Not all Aspect Warriors have thousands of years of experiance, or even centuries for that matter. For example several Aspect Warriors in Path of the Warrior just joined up. In fact one Eldar is considered old ar merely five centuries.

Not to mention carapace armor and camo-cloaks are a far cry from ''bright blue fatigues''. And Astartes Scouts are hardly ''retarded children''. Not to mention they had armored support and had time to set up traps.



Yes really. The fluff makes it quite clear that it takes some time for responses of that magnitude to be gathered and to transit through the Warp. The fact that they were able to gather the ENTIRE full strength chapter and arrive in 30 days is miraculous to the point of ridiculous.


No, not really. The fluff has always varied the time, the rulebook even notes that forces travling through the warp arrive at different times. It does not always take foever for responses to arrive. Space Marines are meant to be a rapid strike force. And again we still do not know how close the planet was. Stop arguing from ignorance.



It's not EVER realistic. The Space Wolves aren't much better with their underwater battles against the Tau.


A completely seperate battle with nothing in common to the situation is irrevelant. Fact is we have a precedent for an entire chapter (Or almost an entire chapter) arriving to defend a shrine.

And I discourage you about applying realism to 40k, the setting that takes realism and burns it to the ground.



The book states that he had 5 full companies under his direct command and 12 strike groups of "50 to 100" marines. Unlikely he was returning from a Crusade at full strength. Even if they were all gathered on Macragge or somewhere for a big party, the race of aliens that Sees the future probably would have picked a different time to attack.


Agn, not really. The Warp itself is hardly reliable. Not to mention it was implied that the Eldar needed to get the Scepter, and fast.



Clearly Calgar didn't care that much about the tomb. He removed the Sceptre of Galaxian and moved it to the Fortress of Hera. Nothing was done about the Tomb.


At that point he would have figured out what the Eldar were out for and removed it. At that point after the battle the Eldar would not have been interested in it.



Or facing down a Monolith one-on-one and coming out on top?


Wy not? It's a Venerable Dreadnought with a power fist. Monoliths are hard to kill, but they are not invincible. For all we known the Dreadnought might have been especially skillfull or have gotten lucky.



Point of interest: Stop revising your posts after you post them. It makes it impossible for anyone to respond to you.

No, that's how I always post. Deal with it. I use it to fix spelling mistakes and respond to other posters.


:rolleyes:

We get it. You. Love. Ultramarines.


Actually no, not any more than Imperial Fists or Blood Angels.



Now, let the rest of us have a bit of fun without teacher's pet trying to correct everything every two seconds. Perception matters, in case you haven't noticed, and Ultramarines have a serious problem in that regard.

Not really. If I see blatant errors and ignorance in the fluff I will correct it.

Creeping Dementia
05-07-2010, 04:15
I hate Ultramarines because they're blue.

They claim to be strategic geniuses, but they paint their armor bright blue.

Bright blue.

Naturally the same concept applies to many of the Chapters, but some could actually pass for an attempt to blend with the terrain. (Raven Guard/Black Templar, White Scars, Salamanders, Imperial fists (desert yellowish?), etc.).


Unless they're fighting underwater, bright blue is dumb.



Sooo, I just don't like the way they look. :angel:

Gutted
05-07-2010, 04:19
I hate Ultramarines because they're blue.

They claim to be strategic geniuses, but they paint their armor bright blue.

Bright blue.

Naturally the same concept applies to many of the Chapters, but some could actually pass for an attempt to blend with the terrain. (Raven Guard/Black Templar, White Scars, Salamanders, Imperial fists (desert yellowish?), etc.).


Unless they're fighting underwater, bright blue is dumb.



Sooo, I just don't like the way they look. :angel:

What if they fight on blue planets or under water?

Drasanil
05-07-2010, 04:36
Not really. If I see blatant errors and ignorance in the fluff I will correct it.

Really? Perception doesn't matter? Why don't you try telling that to every politician in the history of ever and see how well that goes over:o

Thereís a big difference between correcting someone and convincing someone. Unfortunately for you, you donít seem to have realised it.

The problem with Ultramarines is not necessarily what has been written down on black and white (although it is a contributing factor) but rather peopleís perception of what has been written down in black and white, and since you only ever quote said text which already serves to aggravate people in the first place you fail to get your point across. Normal people have a tendency to read between the lines, and since you only provide examples of text which make the Ultramarines seem good/proficient and which ultimately serve to reinforce their image as Mary-Sues it only further reinforces the negative view which you are trying to dispel.

Lord_Crull
05-07-2010, 04:51
Really? Perception doesn't matter? Why don't you try telling that to every politician in the history of ever and see how well that goes over:o


That's not what I meant, so don't put words in my mouth.Simply put, if I spot an error in this thread I will counter it.



There’s a big difference between correcting someone and convincing someone. Unfortunately for you, you don’t seem to have realised it.


Really, personal stabs? How amusing.



The problem with Ultramarines is not necessarily what has been written down on black and white (although it is a contributing factor) but rather people’s perception of what has been written down in black and white, and since you only ever quote said text which already serves to aggravate people in the first place you fail to get your point across.

Not really. All of what I have quoted simply remark on the nature of the Codex and who ordered it to be written. That's hardly inflammatory at all.


Normal people have a tendency to read between the lines, and since you only provide examples of text which make the Ultramarines seem good/proficient and which ultimately serve to reinforce their image as Mary-Sues it only further reinforces the negative view which you are trying to dispel.

How is being professional soldiers and fighting Tyranids Mary Sue? Or noting that it was the High Lords that charged Guilliman to make the Codex?

No offense but you don't seem to have much of a point.

Swordsman
05-07-2010, 04:56
Because it's in vogue to do so.

"Hey man, I hate Ultramarines too - can we be pals now!?"
"Hell yeah we can!"

Death Company
05-07-2010, 04:59
Because it's in vogue to do so.

In a way, you nailed it.

Because they are the "main" Marines of this game, much like Blood Ravens are to the video-games, people bag on them. It is also a result of people trying to be unique, or different with their Marines; "I'm special, my armor isn't blue."

Lunatic Fringe
05-07-2010, 05:06
i think everybody doesnt like other armies. i like to hate on spaz wolves and bug ther players about them (i dont realy hate them i just bug them. lol a swarm of bugs). and most people who dont play mahreens like to hate on the marine love gw gives all of them. and most people who dont play imperium like to hate on imperium armies.

smurfs are imperials and marines and the most well suported spaz marines. thats a triple hate.

Xelloss
05-07-2010, 05:58
I don't really mind the ultramarines : roman-inspired army painted in blue.
I hate smurfs, mary-sue army for 12 y/o kids mostly unpainted (or worse).
Sadly, the last SM codex was written by a smurf player.

genestealer_baldric
05-07-2010, 06:17
2 words

Ureil ventris

all the books with him are written like a 10 year old raving fanboi its just plain stupid

i dont mind the rest of the ultras even calgar dosnt bother me

TheLaughingGod
05-07-2010, 06:26
At every turn? The account says that the Ultramarines defense was ''hard-pressed'' and it goes on to say they would not have been able to face a second assault on the ''fractured defenses'' I would hardly say that. It states that "met them with equal force" and then goes on to state in great detail how badly the Ultramarines beat the Eldar (attacking them before they could even fire, slaying dozens of them singlehandedly, crushing isolated groups with a single command, etc, etc) The entire thing is written as if the Eldar offered up no resistance at all, save their Avatar who was quickly smacked down.




No, not really. Unless you want to start fielding some examples you can't prove that. The burden of proof isn't on me. You have to provide instances in which inferiorly equipped, trained and experienced troops beat technologically advanced, veteran warriors with elite training. If those instances outnumber the instances in which the reverse is true, you would be shown as correct. Since you aren't and you can't, I suggest you concede my point.




Refuge for the Predators? My copy has them driving the Warp Spiders into the Forests. Well yes. Obviously. Guns can't drive you anywhere except into cover.




I'm not quite sure if you are serious with this, or just being ignorant here. Not all Aspect Warriors have thousands of years of experiance, or even centuries for that matter. For example several Aspect Warriors in Path of the Warrior just joined up. In fact one Eldar is considered old ar merely five centuries. I haven't actually had a chance to read Path of the Warrior just yet, though I hear it's quite good. Even if the Warriors are yet somewhat inexperienced in their Aspect, they should have had some previous experience as Guardians or possibly even other Aspects. Considering the lengths of their lives, they should be more experienced than a Scout (who IIRC, is 20-something years old?)



Not to mention carapace armor and camo-cloaks are a far cry from ''bright blue fatigues''. And Astartes Scouts are hardly ''retarded children''. Not to mention they had armored support and had time to set up traps. Compared to Eldar warriors, Astartes are basically big retarded brutes. Armoured support is questionable. The Predators must have been at a distance to engage the Spiders without threat of retaliation, and the Spiders retreated into the woods to escape the tanks. Even if the woods didn't provide adequate cover from the tanks (it certainly should have) I doubt they would continue firing as their own men were in there. Also, the traps thing is completely conjecture on your part, according the account the Eldar were practically upon the Sepulchure when Calgar arrived, it doesn't sound like they have enough time to do anything but set up firing positions around the Sepulchure itself




No, not really. The fluff has always varied the time, the rulebook even notes that forces travling through the warp arrive at different times. It does not always take foever for responses to arrive. Space Marines are meant to be a rapid strike force. And again we still do not know how close the planet was. Stop arguing from ignorance. An entire Space Marine fleet arrives within 30 days all the same time? Come on. I'm not arguing from ignorance, it doesn't MATTER how far away it is. The fluff has always stated that time is relative, not the distance travelled. Short trips sometimes take centuries, long trips sometimes take seconds. It's the unreliability of Warp travel that makes an entire Chapter showing up just at the nick of time to be such a ridiculous proposition.




A completely seperate battle with nothing in common to the situation is irrevelant. Fact is we have a precedent for an entire chapter (Or almost an entire chapter) arriving to defend a shrine.

And I discourage you about applying realism to 40k, the setting that takes realism and burns it to the ground.
Technically, it's NOT a precedent. The Ultras book came out first. If anything, Phil Kelly figured if the Ultras could do it, so could the Wolves. It's still ridiculous that an entire Chapter is sitting around waiting for someone to light the Bat Signal




Agn, not really. The Warp itself is hardly reliable. Not to mention it was implied that the Eldar needed to get the Scepter, and fast.
Implied? Where? It merely said that they asked for it, demanded it, and begin to threaten to get it. And then they showed up in force and started killing people. It never said when they needed or it, for what, or even why. Just that they wanted the Macguffin Wand enough to kill Mon'Keigh and be careful not to damage it. (Though, I guess they were okay with using Prism Cannons, so it must not have been THAT fragile)



Wy not? It's a Venerable Dreadnought with a power fist. Monoliths are hard to kill, but they are not invincible. For all we known the Dreadnought might have been especially skillfull or have gotten lucky.
You don't know it has a powerfist. It might have been a Hellfire. :P Still, it's apparently holding off Monoliths and hordes of necrons and shrugging off Gauss Fire unto the very end when it goes nuclear and wipes out the whole spaceport. That's pretty silly. But then, the part where some marines get onto the World Engine and fight their way through it is pretty ridiculous too.




No, that's how I always post. Deal with it. I use it to fix spelling mistakes and respond to other posters.I AM dealing with it, keep reading. You don't fix nearly enough spelling mistakes to justify your constant edits and you change the content of your posts dramatically. It's disrespectful and underhanded. If you continue I will be forced to simply call you on it every single time.




Not really. If I see blatant errors and ignorance in the fluff I will correct it.Hahahhaa. Good one, chief.

Hellebore
05-07-2010, 06:39
Because space marine players are sulking about them.

Marine players kept telling non marine players to stop whining about how marines are the favourite children of GW, but when one chapter is put over the others THEY get self righteous and start the bawling.

So long as it was only marines in general that were the favouritistsitisisists of GW all was well, but once the ultramarines were singled out from THEM suddenly it's just not on. :rolleyes:

Back in 2nd ed I used to like Ultramarines. Hell I've got Space wolf and Salamander armies from 2nd and 3rd ed. But the current GW paradigm just makes space marines and ultramarines so hard to like I have trouble trying to play a game with them with a straight face.

Hellebore

Death Company
05-07-2010, 06:52
Because space marine players are sulking about them.

It's only acceptable to be an angsty xeno player, as seen here.

DeviantApostle
05-07-2010, 08:09
...this is the game with Space Wolves that ride giant wolves into battle and Blood Angels who go bezerk and drink blood.

Yes. I can forgive being space-vikings and space-vampires. Ultramarine blue makes me want to vomit. On Ultramarines painted Ultramarine. It would improve the colour scheme. I have hated Ultramarine blue since 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines. It's not going to change. Heck, I hate 1K Sons painted the standard blue, mine are painted with a much darker blue/grey.

Godzooky
05-07-2010, 08:23
Hey Guys,

One of the more intresting phenomena around our Hobby is the widespread hatred of Ultramarines (deemed the Smurfs). I was always curious why ppl hated these guys so much? when I see the Ultramarines I see a Chapter that Possess an inner conflict , how can they continue to follow an incresingly outdated Codex and hence preserve the great Legacy laid down by their Primarch while at the same time meet the threats from new foes like the Necrons and the Tyranids. I think its kinda deep that they are forced to sometimes Abandon what is essentially their Bible for the good of the Imperium..

At least they know how DE players feel. :shifty:

Simo429
05-07-2010, 08:34
What annoys me about not just Ultramarines but C:SM is the fact that people don't stay fluffy with them

I know not everyone cares about it but I personally do, I don't think you should have3 Lysander in blue and pretend he is an Ultramarine but its what regularly happens

What I do think is funny is how people comment about them and yet no body has an Ultramarine army just about

Even in the gaming group I run in the school I teach at not one kid has an Ultramarine army
And at the gaming group I play at at Warhammer World there is only one

Zweischneid
05-07-2010, 08:39
I don't really mind the ultramarines : roman-inspired army painted in blue.
I hate smurfs, mary-sue army for 12 y/o kids mostly unpainted (or worse).
Sadly, the last SM codex was written by a smurf player.

Really? What you describe as "smurfs" has in my experience migrated without exception to the Space Wolves as of last year.

From what I see, Blood Angel and Space Wolf (and Salamander) players like bashing because it makes them feel like they're not simply swimming with the crowd for once (despite each and everyone of them outnumbering Ultramarines 1 to a Million).

And, Iron Hands, Random Fist, Raven Guard or Mortificators players like to bash Ultramarines as a way to draw attention to their ow-so-godly-fluff-based army for which they did 60 hours of research on every single squad marking and just cannot shut up about it.

Honestly, it's getting to the point where honest-to-blue Ultramarine Players are becoming the only ones that are not aggrevating thanks to being the only Marine Players that actually still might be neither bland copy&paste Razorback/GreyHunter/LongFangs/Sang Priest spam nor those condescending holier-than-though fluff nazies that keep hamming on about how they've played Dark Angels or whatever since before time and are not at all part of the Space Marine hype that is infringing on their purity.

Xelloss
05-07-2010, 08:48
Really? What you describe as "smurfs" has in my experience migrated without exception to the Space Wolves as of last year.
Probably. Some non-SM players are like that too, but that's less common.

Ronin_eX
05-07-2010, 09:09
The only reason is the atrociously written fluff in the codex. Prior to that I didn't mind them, but the amount of fanwank writing perpetrated in their codex kind of drains the fun out of it. The same thing happens in the Blood Angels codex as well so I think it simply has more to do with the author than anything else (and his editor as well come to think of it).

That some of the new fluff gets okayed in the first place boggles my mind some days.

TimLeeson
05-07-2010, 09:51
cant say I really "hate" them myself but I do tend to find most of the mainstream GW-made chapters boring to some degree, simply cos iv read about them all before and so their not really anything fresh for me. I'd just rather see uncommon chapters fleshed out more instead, like id really like to know more about the Iron lords war against the barghesi or the doom legion and that neat little space-station thingy they have.

Shadow Lord
05-07-2010, 10:01
It's like IRL, there's always that 1 "special" kid that gets picked on...it's not fair, it's not logical and it sure isn't fun for that kid nor his parents...but it happens anyway. But it doesn't help the kid if his mother paints him brightblue and says to the other kids to stop making fun off him...!
I do think that most of the problems with UM (other CSM chapters) comes from the books and the fluff that's allways written with the xeno/CSM at the losing part of battle again and again with most writers making the enemy look like they don't know how to handle a chainsword after hundreds and hundreds of years. A bit more credit to the xeno/CSM/daemon adversary would get the UM (or any other SM chapter) a long way back on the road to redemption...

Vaktathi
05-07-2010, 10:13
Hey Guys,

One of the more intresting phenomena around our Hobby is the widespread hatred of Ultramarines (deemed the Smurfs). I was always curious why ppl hated these guys so much? when I see the Ultramarines I see a Chapter that Possess an inner conflict , how can they continue to follow an incresingly outdated Codex and hence preserve the great Legacy laid down by their Primarch while at the same time meet the threats from new foes like the Necrons and the Tyranids. I think its kinda deep that they are forced to sometimes Abandon what is essentially their Bible for the good of the Imperium..

A few things I guess spring to mind , Games Workshop (in particular Matt ''I hate Eldar'' Ward) have perhaps presented the Ultramarines in a kinda fan-boy manner in the codex.. Rather than look at the Deep and in my opinion fantastic Lore hidden away at the core of this Chapter they have instead focused on falcon punching Avatars and writing nonsense like ''many chapters aspire to be Ultramarines''.. Is the Cheesy Lore responsible for some of the hatred Directed towards the 13th Legion?

Is it Jealousy of the favouritism GW holds for the space Marines that couses ppl to hate the Ultramarines? these guys are the ''poster boys'' for Space marines I guess and perhaps when neglected ppl like Dark Eldar players see that Space marines have gotten yet another dred kit or yet another Codex they lash out at the Poster boy Ultramarines?

So I ask you guys! why is it that the Ultramarines take so much flak from the 40k Community ?

Just my Thoughts,
Farseer Dave.

First, they are overpromoted, they are on everything and are really a very tiny, tiny part of the 40k universe, but are always the first to be slapped on marketing products. Overload is a problem. They have become the face of 40k despite being minor bit part players.

Second, their fluff is derpy. They are the best at everything they do apparently (and everyone else wants to be them :p) and are learned, wise, benevolent rulers of an empire within an empire, which makes little sense given the Codex Astartes goal of seperation of powers and the Space Marine archetype of pyscho-indoctrinated brain washed aggressive genetically engineered super soldier warrior monks. It also doesn't help that Matt Ward writes fluff equivalent to a 13 year old girls Twilight internet fan fiction (this isn't unique to the Ultramarines, the newer SW and BA fluff is also horrific). They seem to have no flaws and are thus simply uninteresting.

They are just "too perfect" and overpromoted. SM's as a whole have changed significantly over the last few years, less "Cleanse/Purge/Kill" techy super soldiers and more "knights in shining armor"

hummus
05-07-2010, 10:14
everybody hates the really succesful teams apart from its supporters
in the uk all supporters hate manchester united apart from mancheaster united supporters

Lord_Crull
05-07-2010, 10:16
It states that "met them with equal force" and then goes on to state in great detail how badly the Ultramarines beat the Eldar (attacking them before they could even fire, slaying dozens of them singlehandedly, crushing isolated groups with a single command, etc, etc) The entire thing is written as if the Eldar offered up no resistance at all, save their Avatar who was quickly smacked down.


And I never got that impression. You are ignoring the parts about the defense being hard-pressed and the gact that Calgar pretty much admitted he could not take a second assault. And evne the Avatar shrugged off a large chunk of heavy weapons fire and carved a bloody path through the Ultramarines (Including Terminators) wounded Calgar pretty badly before finally falling.



The burden of proof isn't on me. You have to provide instances in which inferiorly equipped, trained and experienced troops beat technologically advanced, veteran warriors with elite training. If those instances outnumber the instances in which the reverse is true, you would be shown as correct. Since you aren't and you can't, I suggest you concede my point.


No, I will not. You brought up the historical examples first, you prove it.



Well yes. Obviously. Guns can't drive you anywhere except into cover.


And so obviously, facing those guns they would be cut off guard by the Scouts.



I haven't actually had a chance to read Path of the Warrior just yet, though I hear it's quite good. Even if the Warriors are yet somewhat inexperienced in their Aspect, they should have had some previous experience as Guardians or possibly even other Aspects. Considering the lengths of their lives, they should be more experienced than a Scout (who IIRC, is 20-something years old?)


Actually no. The Main character never fought before, not even in the Guardians.

Again, there is an example of a warrior about five centuries long who is considered to be the ''old man'' of the group.

Regardless, experiance hardly makes them infallible, especially when Tellion had centuries at experiance at that sort of thing. Heck, the Warp Spiders don't even specialze in crowded terrian.



Compared to Eldar warriors, Astartes are basically big retarded brutes. .

Really? Are you serious?

Even in Path of the Warrior Astartes are hardly portrayed as ''retarded brutes''':rolleyes:


Also, the traps thing is completely conjecture on your part, according the account the Eldar were practically upon the Sepulchure when Calgar arrived, it doesn't sound like they have enough time to do anything but set up firing positions around the Sepulchure itself


They had time to fortify the place, which as we know form the Marine codex the Scouts can and do set up traps in field.



An entire Space Marine fleet arrives within 30 days all the same time? Come on. I'm not arguing from ignorance, it doesn't MATTER how far away it is. The fluff has always stated that time is relative, not the distance travelled. Short trips sometimes take centuries, long trips sometimes take seconds. It's the unreliability of Warp travel that makes an entire Chapter showing up just at the nick of time to be such a ridiculous proposition.


Not really. Distance matters, for example Pavonis.



Technically, it's NOT a precedent. The Ultras book came out first. If anything, Phil Kelly figured if the Ultras could do it, so could the Wolves. It's still ridiculous that an entire Chapter is sitting around waiting for someone to light the Bat Signal


Dude, Grey Hunter is a Black Library book several years older than the Codex.:wtf: That was the examole I was talking about.



Implied? Where? It merely said that they asked for it, demanded it, and begin to threaten to get it. And then they showed up in force and started killing people. It never said when they needed or it, for what, or even why.

Well obviously if they went so far as to wake the Avatar they needed it. The entire text was shown for the human point of view.


Just that they wanted the Macguffin Wand enough to kill Mon'Keigh and be careful not to damage it. (Though, I guess they were okay with using Prism Cannons, so it must not have been THAT fragile)


I don't recall them bombing the artefact at all.



I AM dealing with it, keep reading. You don't fix nearly enough spelling mistakes to justify your constant edits and you change the content of your posts dramatically. It's disrespectful and underhanded. If you continue I will be forced to simply call you on it every single time.


And I will ignore you. I believe you are incorrect and needlessly nitpicking.



Hahahhaa. Good one, chief.

That includes you.

MistaGav
05-07-2010, 10:48
It's also GW's IP around space marines that annoys me. If you see the press pictures it's generally ultramarines. The 40k film is called ultramarines...the 40k action game features ultramarines.
I applaud Relic for making an entirely new chapter with at least a few flaws otherwise I don't know how long I could bear listening to ultramarines blabbing on about how great they are!

Giganthrax
05-07-2010, 11:00
Why am I not surprised that the most vocal ultramarine haters in this thread are also diehard eldar fanboys? Ultramarines can and do walk all over the Eldar, and so do plenty of other races in 40k (hell, a single zoanthrope destroyed an entire craftworld, lol). Eldar fanboys should really get over it, and keep in mind that - once they get a 5th ed dex - they too will have plenty of over-the-top fluff to make them feel all war and cozy inside.

That being said, most ultramarine-haters do so because hating what's popular is typical human behavior. It's what all the "cool, rebellious kidz" do, after all. That sort of thing happens anywhere - metal fans hate popular metal bands because they "sold out", computer enthusiasts hate Microsoft, people who have never played it hate World of WarCraft, etc.

Gutted
05-07-2010, 11:23
It's also GW's IP around space marines that annoys me. If you see the press pictures it's generally ultramarines. The 40k film is called ultramarines...the 40k action game features ultramarines.
I applaud Relic for making an entirely new chapter with at least a few flaws otherwise I don't know how long I could bear listening to ultramarines blabbing on about how great they are!

Well when your the only first founding chapter that can represent the standard marines it is only natural your chapter is the default. Imperial Fists are the next best option but yellow is both a hard colour to paint and not all that attractive to GWs target audience of young teenage males.

As for Blood Ravens they don't have much in the way of flaws. They have a few minor plot hooks and quirks and they have a dark mysterious past which is occasionally alluded to.

KingDeath
05-07-2010, 11:54
As for Blood Ravens they don't have much in the way of flaws. They have a few minor plot hooks and quirks and they have a dark mysterious past which is occasionally alluded to.

Well, ignoring Goto's abominable drivel, the good Bloodravens recently got quite some interesting fluff :)

Regarding the Ultramarines, well, i understand that the 5. edition dex is full of rather idiotic fanwank. But one has to see that their concept, that of hard working, hard training defenders of humanity, isn't a bad one. Sure, they will never be as cool as the Black Templars :D, but simple courage and honour can be quite refreshing when other chapters define themselfs trough unwholesome relationships with wolves or nipples on their armour :D

x-esiv-4c
05-07-2010, 11:57
A lot of people do not like the Ultramarines because they are the greatest chapter and all others aspire to be like them.

Gutted
05-07-2010, 12:02
Well, ignoring Goto's abominable drivel, the good Bloodravens recently got quite some interesting fluff :)

The corruption of the chapters high command? the possibillity of being a traitor legion or something else?

Farseer Dave
05-07-2010, 12:08
Hey Guys ,

Some Excellent Arguements have been presented as to why the Ultramarines take so much Flak . However Plz dont turn the Thread into a Flame Fest and drown out the decent points with an oragy of SMurf hatred .
Bassically try to stay on Topic and be civil ^^

Another Question to pose to you , Do you think it is A Good Idea to re-cast the Ultramarines in the next Codex SM? and if so what Direction would you like to see Games Workshop take them in?

Food for thought,
Farseer Dave.

KingDeath
05-07-2010, 12:09
The corruption of the chapters high command? the possibillity of being a traitor legion or something else?
The former, yes. Especially if it is not just the High Command.
Only 3 companies (those of Diomedes, Angelos and your own ) are known to be more or less free of taint and even that only if you get the best ending.

TimLeeson
05-07-2010, 14:08
As for Blood Ravens they don't have much in the way of flaws.

I'd disagree with that, they have fluff written by Goto. That's a pretty big flaw.

808thMyrmidons
05-07-2010, 14:48
im guessing no one heres read graham mcneill

Xelloss
05-07-2010, 15:11
I'd disagree with that, they have fluff written by Goto. That's a pretty big flaw.
You, sir, won the internet.

Askil the Undecided
05-07-2010, 15:17
I'd disagree with that, they have fluff written by Goto. That's a pretty big flaw.


You, sir, won the internet.

I second this.

Grand Master Raziel
05-07-2010, 15:42
Another Question to pose to you , Do you think it is A Good Idea to re-cast the Ultramarines in the next Codex SM? and if so what Direction would you like to see Games Workshop take them in?


What I think would be a good idea would be to make Codex: Space Marines Codex: Space Marines, not Codex: Ultramarines and a few sidekicks. Give equal space for the First Founding chapters that don't get their own dex, and give each one of them a Chapter Tactics that they get regardless of what their players select as their HQ choice. Limit the UM special characters, and let the other FF Chapters have more than one each. If SM players feel like other chapters aren't being added as an afterthought, the UMs might get less resentment directed their way.

Godzooky
05-07-2010, 15:48
You all think the Ultras are obnoxious now?

Just wait until later in the year when they're all film stars. When the champagne socialism kicks in they'll be jetting out to Africa to adopt the first kid they see before you can say "Prius".

Logan_uc
05-07-2010, 17:39
Actually no. All modern militaries have drill books and tactical treasties.


Actually no. As much blame, or even more, can be directed at Rogal Dorn. Dorn at that time was pretty much blinded by greif and rage.

1-Yes, of course they do, but do they try to make others use that manuals to the letter even if its not to there interest? or do they use it without innovating or adapting to real situations?

2-Now its Dorns fault to not accept what papa smurf wants if he thinks its wrong? give me a good reason way Dorn should go against what he thought was right? oh and if Dorn didnt stand down for the sake of the Imperium, papa smurf would make a civil war just to be nļ1.

Commissar Davis
05-07-2010, 17:43
I don't hate Ultramarines, I just don't like them. Dorn's crew are far better, and at least the BT remember exactly what it is to be an Astarte.
UM have there fans just like every other 40K faction, but heres hoping that next time round someone else gets the lime light.

yabbadabba
05-07-2010, 18:01
There really is some people with serious issues on this thread. Either that or they are all teenage boys.

As an army they are very middle of the road. As a marketing/promotional tool they are more iconic than anything else in 40K, and can represent all but the most individualistic marine models cutting down on costs and workload. As background they provide a number of roles and reference points that allow other armies to spin off. As an introductory army they are ideal, with an easy colour to paint (but not be lazy with), no over the top special rules, and an army balance that allows a newbie to experience every phase of the game to an equal value within the army. Yet everything the UM excel at are better represented at a strategic campaign level, adding that extra flavour to the hoary old vet.

As a long, long term UM successor chapter player (2nd Ed), I can safely say that in a world of special rules, marketing hooks, nerd rage and needless oneupgeekship, the UM have always been the army that did exactly what it said on the box without all that.

Hicks
05-07-2010, 18:03
Well before the newest codex, people seemed to complain mostly about UMs being pictured on every space marine boxed products and being the army of choice for newer gamers. I personnally didn't think that high popularity automatically waranted hate from players, in fact, I actually thought they were a pretty cool chapter with a great color scheme...

... but then came the new codex. Yes it seems to have been written by a true and very unimaginative UM fanboy. The message this book presented was almost that yes, there are a thousand chapters out there, but unless you're from the Ultramarines, well you just suck.

I still like the UMs quite a lot and I just ignore all the stupid "UMs are #1" fluff from the new dex.

RunepriestRidcully
05-07-2010, 18:42
The main Problems are A) Matt Ward, though the fact they kept him after he did a single army book/codex is a sign of far GW has fallen, and as people have said overexposure, sure, they need to keep the look on the front of the boxs cohesive, but does almost every peice of artwork that is not for a box need to be an Ultramarine?
I admit, whilst Grey Knights and Space wolves are my main armies, with small Thousand Sons and Salamander forces, I like what the Ultramarines could be, the scraps of the Roman/Greek theme that I have seen, I started with a small 1000pts of 4th company Ultra's even! (this was late third/early forth) this suprises people who know me and did not know that, because, I admit I am an Ultramarine hater, but only because of Matt Ward, and his dribble, "and none can be as great as the Ultramarines" and "All aspire to the teachings of the great Primarch" to me that basically translate as "those non ultramarines you spent all the time and money on, they are worthless, a waste of time, buy Ultramarines" so it basically insulted every non ultramarine player. Any trace of the Greek/Roman theme was ripped out by Ward, indeed, it seems the whole Ultramarines have become Mary Sues and purity sues.(try putting Calgar into any of the sue Litmus tests on the internet, see what comes up). This is 40k, this is Grimmdark, Mary Sues or perfect charecters do not belong here. Whilst it may horrify some people, I say reinvision the Ultramarines like the Romans, the well trained legions, desperately holding back the barbarians whilst their society falls from within as debauchery and abuse of power spreads through the nobility, I am not saying they should be Slannesh worhsipers, but should be showing signs of strain, perhaps have the world bearers or tau capture a part of Ultramar, it the time of ending, show how their arrogence causes problems, show the cracks forming between Agemenmon and Sicarius, sure Calgar ain't dead yet, those two could be preparing for the power struggle that will come when Calgar dies.
The main thing about the Primarch is he did boss and intimidate his brothers, he was Emperor in all but name after the Heresy, also, they were the biggest legion right, then how were they held up for so long by a much smaller group of space evangilists? each other legion and Primarch paid the price for resisting chaos, seems the Ultramaines dodged that bill somehow, also there Primarch died to Fulgrim who was possesed by the most feared daemon of Slannesh, Lady Gaga, a fairly embarresing way to go.
Iron hand players are also pissed because a SC that by all rights should have been theirs (Tank dude) was an Ultramarine, in fact that is another problem, whilst other 1st founding legions got stuck with a single SC, the Ulramarines got 6.
If they take out Ward's fanwank, (may he never touch another codex) go full blown with the greek/Roman fill, show their problems, faults and darksides, even small ones, I would proberbly redo my 4th company.
P.S Who is Ventris?

Lord_Crull
05-07-2010, 18:51
The main thing about the Primarch is he did boss and intimidate his brothers, he was Emperor in all but name after the Heresy,

Not really, Guilliman was ruled by the High Lords. And he hardly bossed around his brothers. He even had talks with Corax over the fleets and incorperated their tactical doctrines into the codex. In fact Guilliman had to beg Dorn not to go to the Iron Cage.

IA Iron Warriors.


Roboute Guilliman pleaded with Dorn to let him help but just as Perturabo planned, Dorn was arrogant enough to undertake the mission alone Rogal Dorn expected honourable battle but that was not Perturabo s agenda at all

Last time I checked tyrants don't beg people.


they were the biggest legion right, then how were they held up for so long by a much smaller group of space evangilists?

Easy, massive amounts of cultists and daemons. Index Astartes Word Bearers also says they used nukes as well.


each other legion and Primarch paid the price for resisting chaos, seems the Ultramaines dodged that bill somehow,

How? What was Khan's price? What was Dorn's Price? What was Russ's Price?


also there Primarch died to Fulgrim who was possesed by the most feared daemon of Slannesh, Lady Gaga, a fairly embarresing way to go.


How is that embrassing? Daemon-Fulgrim already killed one Primarch before he became a full-fledged daemon. In fact the entire fight was mostly obscurced by the Slaanish mist. We don't know exactly what happened.



P.S Who is Ventris?

The Captain of the 4th Company.

Kozbot
05-07-2010, 20:13
On a forum like this why do people hate Ultras? Lots of xenos players combined with fluff they don't like has been my experience. Some of that fluff is badly written, some of that fluff has their favorite army losing, some of that fluff slightly contradicts their favorite bit of fluff, and so on. But on the internet that's where I think the hate comes from.

That's one of the reasons I hate Tau despite having a roughly 8k points of them. I really like how they play (under last editions rules) as a contrast to my other armies but I don't like the fluff so I'm a bit of a Tau hater on the internet.

IRL I think it's because so many new players start playing Ultras and they're such a common army (not so much now with Salamanders due to the over powered special character and with Grey Hunters being made of winsauce.) that there's a higher percentage of jackass players that play marines.

I'll use the example of armies I hate due to more the players I interact with. The three armies I really hate are Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Eldar. I hate the first two because they were played by the most extreme rules lawyers/cheaters in our gaming group and every shooting phase would have a 15 minute debate over terrain and what can and cannot be seen. Every movement phase you'd have to make sure they made difficult terrain tests or they'd 'forget' even if they were advancing over terrain that told you was difficult the previous turn even as you were rolling the dice for movement.

The Grey Knights player was especially a jerk and would always want to challenge newbies that didn't know the rules well so he could crush them. One favorite trick of his was to roll any special attacks first, tell you how many wounds or armor saves there were, roll the attacks for the rest of the squad, then say "Oh yeah, I've got special X in there" and roll it again.

So Grey Knights and Blood Angels are linked with cheating and bad no fun games. Having been to a few tournaments where Ultramarine players exhibit these behaviors (only because half the field is often marines of some kind, often painted as ultras even if they're technically something else) I can see how people start to hate, then dig into the fluff to further justify their hate.

Which ties into why I hate Eldar. We've got one really cool Eldar player in our group and one guy who is they stereotypical Eldar fanboy of "They see the future so I should automatically win ever game and any fluff that says they don't kill the enemy army before they're born is wrong because one a single Avatar could take on dozens of bloodthirsters". Whenever he has the chance he'll go on and on and on and on about how Eldar tech is the best thus your whole army would actually be dead before they even saw the first eldar, how to fit the fluff all Eldar vehicles should have a 2+ save because of how maneuverable they are and so on.

So I take relish in pointing out in the fluff where Eldar get beat, especially if an Avatar dies. Which of course sends him into a tantrum of whining. I've met a couple of Ultra fans like this but fortunately I don't have to interact with them on a regular basis so it doesn't effect me. But if I did I'm sure I'd begin to hate on UMs to, even though I have over 3 chapters worth of ultras myself.

Raziel - Absolutely agreed with the need to balance all the original chapters in a codex called Codex: Space Marines. I firmly believe that Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, and Iron Hands should get equal billing to Ultras. And not "here's the ultra list" followed by "And here's the extra stuff the cool chapters get" but allowing each chapter to be a little unique with an equal balance of special characters and fluff attention. I think you'd hear a lot less ultra complaints if the codex honored all of the original chapters equally.

Of course then it'd just go back to general marine complaints but hating on marines has been around since 2nd edition, I don't think it's gonna change.

gwarsh41
05-07-2010, 20:17
Blue makes me angry like red does to a bull. I am banned from hobby shops for charging display stands head first. I have a special harness so I dont headbutt my monitor while on Warseer.

TheOverlord
05-07-2010, 20:30
This is a game aimed at disgruntled, disillusioned, social-outcasts with bad hygiene and health habits. Hating something is as natural to us as breathing, especially when said object happens not to be the object of your favoritism.

Foxhound_808
05-07-2010, 20:43
I hate Ultramarines because they're blue.

They claim to be strategic geniuses, but they paint their armor bright blue.

Bright blue.

Naturally the same concept applies to many of the Chapters, but some could actually pass for an attempt to blend with the terrain. (Raven Guard/Black Templar, White Scars, Salamanders, Imperial fists (desert yellowish?), etc.).


Unless they're fighting underwater, bright blue is dumb.

I believe the idea with Space Marines is that they WANT their enemies to see and fear them since they represent the Emperor. They don't need to hide or blend in with terrain like IG for example...I forget what the exact quote was, but there was a chaplain or something who said "we believe that what the enemy can see he will soon learn to fear."

As to the original debate, I personally don't like Ultramarines for the same reasons everyone has listed a thousand times. I also preferred the old color scheme with yellow shoulder pad rims/eagles and red boltguns.

gwarsh41
05-07-2010, 21:07
This is a game aimed at disgruntled, disillusioned, social-outcasts with bad hygiene and health habits. Hating something is as natural to us as breathing, especially when said object happens not to be the object of your favoritism.

We will never drop the stereotype if we enforce it on ourselves.

Corax
05-07-2010, 21:10
Just wait until later in the year when they're all film stars. When the champagne socialism kicks in they'll be jetting out to Africa to adopt the first kid they see before you can say "Prius".

I'm pretty sure they already have a Strike Cruiser by that name... :angel:

Lord_Crull
05-07-2010, 22:02
1-Yes, of course they do, but do they try to make others use that manuals to the letter even if its not to there interest?

I don't see the Ultramarines prosecuting the White Scars for liking bikes or the Ultramarines bothering the Dark Angels, or the Space Wolves or anybody. Dorn's problem was splitting apart the Legions, not tactical doctrine. After all, since the Legions were split the Ultramarines don't seem to have a problem with how the Chapters conduct their warfare.


or do they use it without innovating or adapting to real situations?


Did you just ignore the quote I had about the codex evolving over the millenia?



2-Now its Dorns fault to not accept what papa smurf wants if he thinks its wrong? give me a good reason way Dorn should go against what he thought was right? oh and if Dorn didnt stand down for the sake of the Imperium, papa smurf would make a civil war just to be nļ1.

I'm not quite sue what you are asking. I suggest you go over your post and edit it, it's pretty unclear to me.

But from what I can gather you are asking about Dorn? The Imperial Fist IA says that Dorn was absent from the highest councils and blinded by rage.


Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done.

And he even got a vision from the Emperor telling him to change.


For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fists had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone, but they knew that he was still watching them from the Golden Throne. The Imperial Fists could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter.
Insignium Astartes.


The High Lords tasked the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman with the job of reordering the Imperial military forces.


After the traitors of Horus and been defeated and banished the High Lords of Terra decreed that never again should so many Space Marines fall under the sway of one man, however noble his intent.

Corax
06-07-2010, 21:29
Top work, Lord_Crull. The Ultramarines reputation is safe once again thanks to you. :rolleyes:

Fixer
06-07-2010, 22:28
Football analogy time :)

Imagine if a new book came out called: Codex: Premier League. With it you were supposed to be able to make any Premier league football team you wanted.

However, in the opening blurb Matt Ward writes: 'These people can never be Chelsea players, as they have never been signed by the great team. However they all aspire to one day play for Chelsea' followed by lots and lots of references of how Chelsea is the greatest football team ever in pretty much all regards.

Then there's a passage about how Didier Drogba managed to beat Muhammed Ali in a boxing match back in the 1970s.

Then you have the selection of special players. You have a handful from other teams like Wayne Roony but most of them are Chelsea players. What's more the descriptive text for each one of them says that without a doubt, they are the best Goalkeeper/Forward/Midfielder/Manager/Groundskeeper in all of footballdom.

Now, if you're playing a Chelsea team this'll be fine for you. However, if you're playing as any other premier league side or making up a team of your own, you're going to get annoyed as hell at the blatant Wesley Crusher type pushing of Chelsea over everyone else and the exaggeration of their deeds to make them sound even better that pushes even 40k suspension of disbelief beyond it's limits.

You end up with lots of Chelsea hate.

yabbadabba
06-07-2010, 23:24
You end up with lots of Chelsea hate.Nope, you end up with some Chelsea hate from a minority who think all they read is real, and a majority of people who just get on with it.

Lord_Crull
06-07-2010, 23:44
Top work, Lord_Crull. The Ultramarines reputation is safe once again thanks to you. :rolleyes:

People respond to me and I respond back. I simply correct people and use common sense.

Nothing more. Deal with it.

Vaktathi
06-07-2010, 23:45
Nope, you end up with some Chelsea hate from a minority who think all they read is real, and a majority of people who just get on with it.

You certainly aren't going to engender lots of chelsea love with a passages like that though. Maybe not hate but certainly a rather dismissive attitude, a "oh, them again, is there anything else I could be doing?" type thing.

Souleater
07-07-2010, 07:25
I thought the UM hate was secretly fostered by the SWs to take the flak away from them? :)

herostoaces
07-07-2010, 07:26
They are they space marine equal to the IG Mordain Guard. It's hard to identify with sticking to training and following orders to the letter. I don't think the Ultramarines would stick to the tactica of the codex at all cost. Marines are not that expendable. The stories are told as they see them. All chapters want to be the best and the badest. It's the rivalry all branches of the service have with each other. Even in the same branch of service units do it to each other. Some one has to the best and you all ways brag about what you do best.

yabbadabba
07-07-2010, 08:13
You certainly aren't going to engender lots of chelsea love with a passages like that though. Maybe not hate but certainly a rather dismissive attitude, a "oh, them again, is there anything else I could be doing?" type thing. Couldn't care less to be honest Vakathi. Those who say they hate the UM are really showing a level of immaturity and ignorance which is ideally analogous with the more vocal parts of football supporters. And there are plenty of threads on here to support that.

I can come up with a very, very long list about why UM should be the centre of the Space Marine iconography for business, background and gameplay rules, and in no way does that denigrate the other SM chapters. I could belittle them, but in the end I recognise that all the armies represented in 40K have as much right to support and praise, and to be a central theme in the 40K universe as do the UM.

As a UM player (alright as a successor chapter) there is only so much blatant rubbish you can accept off people about an army you enjoy playing and have a significant investment in.

Godzooky
07-07-2010, 08:48
We could look at it another way, of course.

Ultras are nice, strong, easy to identify with, classical paragons of heroism, that serve to draw a lot of new people into the hobby with their simple colour scheme and singular purpose that speaks to kids raised on Hollywood endings.

For people who prefer more edge, they serve as a generic jumping-off point so that the likes of BAs and SWs seem more untamed and "cool" by comparison.

So, love them, or "hate" them (for all the value there is in feeling malice toward colourful pieces of metal and plastic in the grand universal scheme) they benefit us all by:

A) Drawing a steady, solid revenue for GW, which will allow more design, development and support for all of our own factions.

B) Providing a solid benchmark upon which your own chosen army will appear cooler, more badass, less mainstream, by comparison (in your own minds, of course, and that's all that matters).

C) A potential gateway into new media streams for GW in the future.

Also, the Chelsea analogy was an interesting one. Seeing as Lampard apparently can't hit a cow's **** with a banjo at the moment, he'd definitely struggle to Falcon piounch an avatar. :shifty:

Vaktathi
07-07-2010, 09:27
Couldn't care less to be honest Vakathi. Those who say they hate the UM are really showing a level of immaturity and ignorance which is ideally analogous with the more vocal parts of football supporters. And there are plenty of threads on here to support that.Perhaps you are confusing blind hatred with apathy and annoyance. The extent to which Ultramarines are showcased does become nauseating, for a fighting force that is represented by less than one soldier per ten worlds in the Imperium of Man out of hundreds of millions of worlds in the Galaxy, they seem to appear in every major battle and marketing material. They are perfectly perfect in every way and thus, iconic Mary Sue's. When a Mary Sue faction becomes the icon of a game based around the grim and unending darkness of the far future where there is only war and the laughter of thirsting gods, that becomes a problem.

That, and the latest fluff on Ultramarines really does read like very poor tween internet fan fiction, which doesn't help at all.



I can come up with a very, very long list about why UM should be the centre of the Space Marine iconography for business, background and gameplay rules, and in no way does that denigrate the other SM chapters. Have you read the current SM codex? It very much does go out of its way to put the UM's clearly above other chapters. "Each member of the Ultramarines honor guard has earnt more commendations than whole company from any other chapter" or "Chapters of the second category owe their genetic lineage to another primarch, such as the Imperial Fists...These chapters can never be Ultramarines, but will ever aspire..." on and on.



I could belittle them, but in the end I recognise that all the armies represented in 40K have as much right to support and praise, and to be a central theme in the 40K universe as do the UM. If not moreso, and don't get that same support that UM's get.



As a UM player (alright as a successor chapter) there is only so much blatant rubbish you can accept off people about an army you enjoy playing and have a significant investment in.defensiveness aside, surely it's not hard to see why many people may have problems with UM fluff and ubiquitousness.

Jonny_N
07-07-2010, 09:28
In the last few years The Ultramarines have become to 40k what Twilight has to literature. They have attracted a lot of people, but these people dont realize just how bad they are. Back in the day, the ultramarines were the bog standard space marines, and alot of people didnt collect them because there was nothing really special about them. Then they began the posterboy routine and Marneus Calgar can headbutt planets to death, fart fire at tyranids and happy slap avatars to death. It all sounds very exciting, but seems too much, even for 40k, but it does get the 13 year olds excited and into the hobby, sells a lot of plastic soldiers and a lot of blue paint.

Fixer
07-07-2010, 09:29
Obviously you do care yabbadabba due to the tone and content of your last two posts :rolleyes:

Let's have a look at the history of Ultramarine hate though.

Rogue Trader They were Blue Painted marines. No one cared.

2nd edition They were the Blue marines that other chapters could use the codex for. No one cared.

3rd edition. They were the vanilla marines and every other special chapter used a minidex that was an improvement in some way upon that base list. Marneus Calgar's rules were terrible. No one cared.

4th edition. GW tries to resolve the issue with Ultramarines being seen as boring. Adds in some special units for them such as honour guard, Chaplain Cassius and Tyranic War Veterans. For the most part, still no-one cared.

5th edition. Unhappy with Ultramarines simply being the poster boys and 'archetypal' marine chapter they are suddenly written as 'The super awesome marines' with a single company of Ultramarines being more successful than entire chapters. Ultramarines become the default box art, replacing even the lone Dark Angels scheme on the Rhino. Cue internet nerd rage!

Trouble isn't with the army, the style or what they are supposed to be. You can still like a chapter that has a classical/ancient theme and one that's built to be flexible and is effectively balanced, even one that has been the most successful. What people hate is the author favouritism syndrome where the rest Universe is forced to bend around the chapter in order to make them even better.

5th edition fluff for Ultramarines doesn't just talk up the Ultras, its puts down everyone else. Suddenly every other codex chapter loves them, wants to be them and laments their inability to be as awesome/painted blue.

This kind of creative screw-up isn't limited to 40k, and as with all things there's a few TV tropes pages which sum up the phenomenon perfectly.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWesley
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShillingTheWesley

Ultramarines only truly became this with Matt Ward's 5th edition background writing. There's still time for them to be rescued from the scrappy heap :)

Jonny_N
07-07-2010, 09:36
I love how in the space marine codex it says how awesome they are and stuff. and in the Blood angels codex it says they sent marines to help out when ultramar was in trouble. Matt Ward: EVERYTHING I WRITE IS AWESOME, AND WHAT COULD BE MORE AWESOME THAN MY AWESOME BLUE MARINES? HAVING MY AWESOME RED MARINES HELP MAKE THEM MORE AWESOME!!!11ONE!

Sorry about the caps, I imagine him speaking like a kid with something extra shiney from a hasbro advert.

KingDeath
07-07-2010, 09:52
My only issue with them is that they start to become Marry Sues in their Codex.
Of course, the same can be said for the Spacewolves and the Blood Angels dex.
Tbh, i consider this to be a quite annoying development, even superhuman defenders of mankind should lose once in a while. Calgar, Mephiston and the Swarmlord ( to have an example from the Tyranid dex ) are probably the most glaring examples.

yabbadabba
07-07-2010, 10:47
Perhaps you are confusing blind hatred with apathy and annoyance. The extent to which Ultramarines are showcased does become nauseating, for a fighting force that is represented by less than one soldier per ten worlds in the Imperium of Man out of hundreds of millions of worlds in the Galaxy, they seem to appear in every major battle and marketing material. They are perfectly perfect in every way and thus, iconic Mary Sue's. When a Mary Sue faction becomes the icon of a game based around the grim and unending darkness of the far future where there is only war and the laughter of thirsting gods, that becomes a problem. No, not really, it becomes a problem to those who feel they have to rebel, to be unique and that uniqueness needs some kind of wazzy rule, unit or character. What makes UM unique is that they are holistically so much better at the basics than any other chapter, they have been written as a counterpoint to the grimdark, the totalitarianism of the 40K universe. They are the only example of what humanity could aspire to in 40K and that is a counterpoint sorely needed in the game.


That, and the latest fluff on Ultramarines really does read like very poor tween internet fan fiction, which doesn't help at all. Yes, but GW has never been top drawer at this. Maybe there are too many "noobs" over reacting to a bout of poor writing quality and lack the skills to assess that properly, or the maturity to dismiss it and create their own?


Have you read the current SM codex? It very much does go out of its way to put the UM's clearly above other chapters. "Each member of the Ultramarines honor guard has earnt more commendations than whole company from any other chapter" or "Chapters of the second category owe their genetic lineage to another primarch, such as the Imperial Fists...These chapters can never be Ultramarines, but will ever aspire..." on and on. And? Its marketing, promotion and it is poorly written. But it reads no less biased than some allegedly historically accurate books I have read over the years. SW, DA, BA, BT etc all have "special rules" and fringe backgrounds to promote their appeal. The writing might be poor, but that is the UM's uniqueness, the ability to be amongst the best in every field.


If not moreso, and don't get that same support that UM's get. Rubbish. The UM have always had to share their codex with other chapters. They have had 1 specialist unit which survived one edition. SW, BA, DA have all had far more "support" in gaming and model terms than UM; however UM have been promoted more, and as a business decision rightly so. The other chapters outside of these have consistently had little support and have always been extreme fringe armies.


defensiveness aside, surely it's not hard to see why many people may have problems with UM fluff and ubiquitousness. Its been around a very, very long time. UMs have been on the receiving end of as much criticism over the years as the early versions of the orks. I think what you have is some recently poorly written material, some indoctrinated community baseless opinion, a perceived rebelling against what was enjoyed in childhood and people getting far too over excited about how GW promote their products. None of that is reason for hating UMs, is it?

@Fixer - UM hate has been there since 2nd Ed. I first heard "Ultrasmurf" in late '95. Its old, boring and to be honest mostly come from youngsters who were fighting for some kind of position within the wargaming niche and felt the need to denigrate anything they didn't support. Amongst more mature wargamers, the interest has always been in how an army with no special rules, models or anything else competed vs armies stuffed with them.

@ Fixer and JohnnyN - the issue is with Matt Ward then, and not UMs. So why the UM hate, and not an immediate review of Wards' writing skills amongst the community?

@ KingDeath - agreed. There is glory in defeat and victory. No amount of biased myopic writing can paint the loss of the 1st Company vs the Tyranids as a disaster, but it was a glorious one.

Vaktathi
07-07-2010, 11:17
No, not really, it becomes a problem to those who feel they have to rebel, to be unique and that uniqueness needs some kind of wazzy rule, unit or character. No, that's not it at all, nor is it what I wrote about. It's about a small, honestly insignificant force appearing everywhere at all times and never really losing ever. What's fun about a force that's perfectly perfect in every way? Where's the challenge and struggle? Whenever the UM's are involved in anything fluffwise, you don't need to really read the story, you know the ending beforehand and pretty much exactly how it got there.


What makes UM unique is that they are holistically so much better at the basics than any other chapter Until the recent book and its drivel, this wasn't necessarily so.


they have been written as a counterpoint to the grimdark Tau weren't enough for that?


They are the only example of what humanity could aspire to in 40K and that is a counterpoint sorely needed in the game. So we take the genetically engineered psycho indoctrinated super soldier holy fanatic warrior monks and make them Mary Sues to look up to? Sounds terrible.



Yes, but GW has never been top drawer at this. Maybe there are too many "noobs" over reacting to a bout of poor writing quality and lack the skills to assess that properly, or the maturity to dismiss it and create their own? Or maybe there's people being overly defensive of terrible background writing that is on an entirely different scale of bad than 40k's ever had before. 40k has had pulp before, and for what it is that's fine. Tweeny fanfiction isn't.

Now, I really don't have anything against UM players, rather their background and GW's actions regarding them, however I think every UM player I've ever encountered has been a "noob", which is part of the stereotype. I've yet to see a UM army owned by an independent adult, much less an experienced gamer.



And? Its marketing, promotion and it is poorly written. But it reads no less biased than some allegedly historically accurate books I have read over the years. And it was a counterpoint to your argument that UM stuff doesn't denegrate other chapters, which it clearly does. In addition to being just poor background, it's poor fiction.


SW, DA, BA, BT etc all have "special rules" and fringe backgrounds to promote their appeal. The writing might be poor, but that is the UM's uniqueness, the ability to be amongst the best in every field. If they are the best in every field, why take anything else? Why bother with anything else? What's unique about something that's the best at everything?

And no, previously they weren't the best at everything, and realistically they aren't.



Rubbish. The UM have always had to share their codex with other chapters. By which you mean, other chapters have had to shoe-horn into the Ultramarines model right? (don't take that entirely seriously, I'd really like to see only a single loyalist SM book instead of the half dozen we have now)


They have had 1 specialist unit which survived one edition. SW, BA, DA have all had far more "support" in gaming and model terms than UM; however UM have been promoted more, and as a business decision rightly so. The other chapters outside of these have consistently had little support and have always been extreme fringe armies. In terms of marketing support, background exposure, appearance in 3rd party 40k products, and central place in storyline, etc Ultramarines have gotten far more than any other army. In terms of unique kits? Ultra's have 7 unique blisters/kits? While not as many as BA or SW, more than others BT and DA's, and certainly more than any chapter that doesn't have it's own book.



Its been around a very, very long time. UMs have been on the receiving end of as much criticism over the years as the early versions of the orks. I think what you have is some recently poorly written material, some indoctrinated community baseless opinion, a perceived rebelling against what was enjoyed in childhood and people getting far too over excited about how GW promote their products. None of that is reason for hating UMs, is it? Poorly conceived, written and delivered background material certainly is, and gratuitous overexposure certainly is as well.

Xelloss
07-07-2010, 11:37
Ultrasmurfs are targeted to what I loathe in Warhammer : 12 y/o immature mudkips whose parents use GW as a kindergarden.

Godzooky
07-07-2010, 11:42
Yabbadabba!!! Vaktathi!!!

Stop fighting!!!

We all like you both the same!!! :cries:

yabbadabba
07-07-2010, 12:07
No, that's not it at all, nor is it what I wrote about. It's about a small, honestly insignificant force appearing everywhere at all times and never really losing ever. What's fun about a force that's perfectly perfect in every way? Where's the challenge and struggle? Whenever the UM's are involved in anything fluffwise, you don't need to really read the story, you know the ending beforehand and pretty much exactly how it got there. Recebt poorly written material doesn't explain anti-UM feelings since '95 does it?


Until the recent book and its drivel, this wasn't necessarily so. Well yes it was. We can agree to disagree, but in the end the UM are the most successful chapter in a variety of ways. They might not excel at any one thing on the battlefield - see a later point.


Tau weren't enough for that? No because they are not human. The 40K universe is written from a very heavy humn-centric standpoint. Therefore it makes sense to have that counterpoint in both human and alien terms.


So we take the genetically engineered psycho indoctrinated super soldier holy fanatic warrior monks and make them Mary Sues to look up to? Sounds terrible. But the overall ethos of the UMs have not reflected this. They are the Legionnaires of the 40K universe, fighteningly efficient, extremely capable but with no really unique flair. UM haven't changed in all the years I have played them. The recent background has been a poor attempt to big them up and retain some attention of the gamers.


Or maybe there's people being overly defensive of terrible background writing that is on an entirely different scale of bad than 40k's ever had before. 40k has had pulp before, and for what it is that's fine. Tweeny fanfiction isn't. No not really, no one is being over defensive about the recent writing are they?


Now, I really don't have anything against UM players, rather their background and GW's actions regarding them, however I think every UM player I've ever encountered has been a "noob", which is part of the stereotype. I've yet to see a UM army owned by an independent adult, much less an experienced gamer. Well I know some adult collectors, but they have become fewer as other armies have got wazzy rules and units, as well as the inevitable scorn/derision/apathy over your army choice. And I think you have your answer, and everyone elses, in your first sentence here. Its not the UMs, its GW. And that smacks to me of confusing the issue.


And it was a counterpoint to your argument that UM stuff doesn't denegrate other chapters, which it clearly does. In addition to being just poor background, it's poor fiction. No, it was my point that my list of UM plusses wouldn't denigrate other chapters.


If they are the best in every field, why take anything else? Why bother with anything else? What's unique about something that's the best at everything? And no, previously they weren't the best at everything, and realistically they aren't. Misread that mate. They are amongst the best in every field, but other chapters excel in certain areas. UMs are decathletes to the other chapter's specialisms. What UMs excel at, you can't represent on the 40K battlefield.


By which you mean, other chapters have had to shoe-horn into the Ultramarines model right? (don't take that entirely seriously, I'd really like to see only a single loyalist SM book instead of the half dozen we have now) Same here, but then we would have never ending bitching about that too.


In terms of marketing support, background exposure, appearance in 3rd party 40k products, and central place in storyline, etc Ultramarines have gotten far more than any other army. In terms of unique kits? Ultra's have 7 unique blisters/kits? While not as many as BA or SW, more than others BT and DA's, and certainly more than any chapter that doesn't have it's own book. Hmm, tyranid hunters don't exist so that doesn't count. Characters don't count. Honour Guard don't count because there is no generic box for them, GW have already set precedents for the need to convert for some units, and honour guard are available to any codex chapter. However I think next marine release should drop the metals and bring in a generic box set. And you are right, a codex release is the only true justification for a wider range of box sets. Why do you think that all the other variant box sets have been withdrawn? Lack of sales unfortunately.


Poorly conceived, written and delivered background material certainly is, and gratuitous overexposure certainly is as well. Ok, lest deal with this in two ways. The first part I agree with and is mostly aimed at Matt Ward's current codex, with a poor helping from BL. So we can dismiss that for a start - the error is with Ward, not the UMs.

The second part is very important. Within the 40K community UMs are not over exposed. You yourself have said how few of the armies you see outside of kids. There really is little interest or excitement in them on these boards, other than immature "I hate" rants. Its really ironic how the army that is presented as the most generic army and used as the base for a load others, is in fact the one that gets the most prejudice. Over the years you have had BA, BT and Crimson Fists all represent the "codex" chapter on box sets or book covers. In terms of models etc they really only have characters that are unique.

Yet UMs are one of the best and most unique iconography for GW to use to promote 40K. It offers much, yet leads to so much more. They are identifiably human, not mutant, and are glorious, bright and heroic. None of this takes anything away from the other chapters and in facts helps them really define how they deviate from the norm. UMs do exactly what they say on the box, are ideal for new hobbyists as a vehicle to get into 40K. And possibly this is where most people are getting it wrong. They are confusing GW the business, with 40K the game.

Corax
07-07-2010, 14:08
They are identifiably human, not mutant, and are glorious, bright and heroic.

If that is true, then they have no business being the poster child for 40k. This is grimdark, not a Michael Bay movie! If we want a chapter that is archetypal of the 40k universe, it would be the Black Templars; a bunch of merciless, xenocidal ideologues.

Zweischneid
07-07-2010, 14:35
If that is true, then they have no business being the poster child for 40k. This is grimdark, not a Michael Bay movie! If we want a chapter that is archetypal of the 40k universe, it would be the Black Templars; a bunch of merciless, xenocidal ideologues.

40K is not, and never has been, as bleakly grimdark as some people wish it were.

Read the rulebooks and Codexes (no BL doesnt count) and you'll see that its chock full of fairly banal heroes-fight-villains storylines ending with slow-mo close-combats set before exploding gothic ruins. None of that wouldn't be beyond a Michael Bay movie.

Grimdark is simply a sneaky marketing ploy that allows the non-teenager customers of GW to decieve themselves into believing their special snowflake escapist fantasy that is superiour or "more mature" than Star Wars, Transformers, GI Joe or whatever else is build on the same rote narratives.

And what Grimdark there is, is never "truly dark" and conflicted either. It tends to fall more into the gore-porn variety beloved by adolescents everywhere.

HK-47
07-07-2010, 14:41
It's not the Ultramarines themselves that suck, I have seen people do a lot of really cool armies with them.

Like this one fore example (done by Apologist): http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146205

The main reason why I hate the Ultramarines now is mainly do to Matt Wards over the top writing style which turns their Fluff into a fanfic. Another reason is that GW has stopped rotating it's main chapters and has decide to stick with Ultramarines, which I think is really sad as it gives a narrow view of the Space Marines, instead of when they shared the limelight with the Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Black Templars.

BigEaZyE
07-07-2010, 15:55
Ultramarines are hated because they remind everyone of the high school quarterback/similar high school persona who was beloved by everyone for no 'real' reason and left all the geeks high and dry for attention. And this hobby is filled with the geeks. Not that being a geek is bad, but they do get angsty.

There's no real reason to hate them really, just like there's no real reason to love them, people just take this hobby far too personally instead of just treating it like a hobby

RunepriestRidcully
07-07-2010, 16:31
@yabbadabba, The tyranid hunter models are still there, as I said I started with Ultramarines years ago, and I bought a blister of those guys, to use as the weteran Space marines I had rolled up for in the warband campaign at my school warhammer club, so yes, the ultramarines do have models for their veterans were other first founding chapters don't, also, why are charecters not counted, is it because that area is one where the over exposure is highlighted.
I agree with those who say that the whole, mary/purity sue/perfection does not fit with 40k, they may have started like that, but even 100 years in the 40k universe would be enough to tarnish that, there is a reason idealistic Inquisitors do not last long!
And if a shining example of what humanity could be is needed, the sisters of batlle or Grey Knights should both be them, the former as an example of purity, faith what unimproved, normal people are capable of, and the latter as an example of the same as the above, only without the non modified part, though the personal sacrifice part would be even greater, they give up their memories to do what they do.
There may have been a small bit of ultra hate by a minority before, for reason just they were generic, but ten what Matt Ward did was not only put gasoline on the fire, he put the Hindenburg on it as well, and as people pay for the codexs.... well, they kinda expect half decent writing that does not read like something from the worst parts of Fanfiction.net, with Ward writing fluff, Blood Angel players had real reason to fear a cutting and pasting of Twilight. Seeing as he seems to have sigle handedly cripple the previous edtion of WHF, broken the SM fanbase, give us some of the worst ideas in a long time (The SANGUINOR, could he have not come up with a worse name, Dante being tired of life, Sanguinius keeping a diary, all other chapters wanting to be Ultramarines) and the worst track record of codex writing, why does GW keep him? Do they want to lose their fanbase or something?

loveless
07-07-2010, 17:12
1. The only thing interesting about their Primarch was how he died.
2. They're freaking called Ultramarines. I suppose Supermarines and Megamarines sounded too silly (Yes, I know "Ultramar" and all that...but it's still ridiculous)
3. Current Codex writing makes them sound like the end-all be-all of Marines, that everyone everywhere wants to be - forever.
4. No flaws, no interesting story hooks - they just seem to be there to pose for posters and hold off the occasional Tyranid incursion.
5. Guilleman's (spell check that for me) ridiculous insistence of his Codex comes across much like Al Gore insisting that people believe in Manbearpig. In fact, that's the voice that comes to mind when I think of that Primarch.
6. For all their "middle-of-the-road"-ness, it seems odd that they have the best sniper, best tank commander, most special characters (within the codex) and so on. For all the "Everyone wants to be an Ultramarine" there sure is a lot of "Me too!" coming from the Ultramarines.

theunwantedbeing
07-07-2010, 17:25
Ultramarines just dont have any personality.
They're blue space marines, they turn up, win and leave.

It's all very hum drum despite them being genetically engineered 8ft tall super warriors decked in ceramite armour that'll stop anything short of a battlecannon.

We have other champters who beyond being a different colour need to have a personality to be set apart from the ultramarines, so they end out being way more interesting as a result.

Lord_Crull
07-07-2010, 17:47
2. They're freaking called Ultramarines. I suppose Supermarines and Megamarines sounded too silly (Yes, I know "Ultramar" and all that...but it's still ridiculous)


There name actually refeered to their color scheme in 1st Edition.



4. No flaws, no interesting story hooks - they just seem to be there to pose for posters and hold off the occasional Tyranid incursion.


Again, all it takes is an some imagination. I've already posted about a half-dozen story hooks off the top of my head in this same thread



5. Guilleman's (spell check that for me) ridiculous insistence of his Codex comes across much like Al Gore insisting that people believe in Manbearpig. In fact, that's the voice that comes to mind when I think of that Primarch.


Hardly ridiculous when he's been charged by the High Lords to do that very same thing.


@yabbadabba, The tyranid hunter models are still there, as I said I started with Ultramarines years ago, and I bought a blister of those guys, to use as the weteran Space marines I had rolled up for in the warband campaign at my school warhammer club, so yes, the ultramarines do have models for their veterans were other first founding chapters don't, also, why are charecters not counted, is it because that area is one where the over exposure is highlighted.


Actually no. The Dark Angels have plastic veterans. The Ultramarines have only the metal Tyranid Hutners and a bunch of generic veterans that can be used for any chapter. In fact we could include Sanguinary Guard if that's what you mean by veterans.

Cowboy Creep
07-07-2010, 18:59
The Ultramarines are no different than THQ's Blood Ravens; they are "the Marine chapter" used to promote the game, and used as the default by the company.

I don't understand all of the hate; worse yet the anecdotal evidence. "I once met an Ultramarine player and he was a jerk; they all must be jerks." Grow up.

loveless
07-07-2010, 20:32
There name actually refeered to their color scheme in 1st Edition.

Regardless, I feel it is no coincidence that the "epitome of Marine chapters" is labeled the "Ultramarines." It could have just as easily been the Imperial Fists, or Raven Guard, or whatever - but the designers chose to go with the Ultramarines.

While I'm familiar with the colors ultramarine (#120A8F) and ultramarine blue (#4166F5), it's still one of those ridiculously "witty" names that's more groan-worthy than clever.

It reeks of a child yelling "They're not just Marines, they're Ultramarines!"

Ugh.




Again, all it takes is an some imagination. I've already posted about a half-dozen story hooks off the top of my head in this same thread

Yet none specifically seem to deal with the Ultramarines, other than noting their general appearance. Holding back Orks, Tyranids, Tau - all could be just as easily done by any other Marine chapter.

The Ultras lack the unique organization and emotions of the Space Wolves and the Black Templar. They lack the paranoia of the Dark Angels. They lack the resolute nature of the Imperial and Crimson Fists. They lack the tragic aspect of the Blood Angels (and even the Raven Guard to some extent, looking at Corax). They lack the mechanical aspects of the Iron Hands. They lack the demon-fighting prowess of the Exorcists and the refined weaponry of the Salamanders.

The Ultramarines are the ultimate average, consistently portrayed as the pinnacle of the Adeptus Astartes. However, there's nothing to really differentiate them from the Mentor Legion, Mantis Warriors, White Consuls, Hawk Lords, etc. Any story you can drop the Ultramarines into can just as easily be filled by another Chapter with little to no story rewriting required*. The tactics are typically the same - what makes the Ultramarines better?

Not a thing. Yet they're portrayed as the best of the best. Ridiculous stories such as the now infamous "Avatar Punch" and practically every other bit of background relating to Calgar in the 5th edition book do not help.

*I will note - things that specifically involve Ultramar will most likely require the Ultramarines.



Hardly ridiculous when he's been charged by the High Lords to do that very same thing.

Are these the same High Lords who are adamant about keeping the Emperor crippled in order to maintain their stranglehold on the Imperium?

I've never trusted the High Lords in the background - their choice of using Captain Average to sort out the military just seems like they chose the Primarch most likely to whine until he got his way. There's are several reasons I like Fulgrim...one of them should be easy to guess ;)



Actually no. The Dark Angels have plastic veterans. The Ultramarines have only the metal Tyranid Hutners and a bunch of generic veterans that can be used for any chapter. In fact we could include Sanguinary Guard if that's what you mean by veterans.

I know this one isn't directed at me, but it is worth noting that the Ultramarines also have the Honor Guard in Calgar's box, as well as chapter-specific bits in plastic kits like the Command Squad.

Wolf Lord Balrog
07-07-2010, 20:45
The Ultramarines are no different than THQ's Blood Ravens; they are "the Marine chapter" used to promote the game, and used as the default by the company.
And in a game with many factions, that means that every faction that doesn't get anywhere near that much attention comes to dislike the 'poster boys'.


I don't understand all of the hate; worse yet the anecdotal evidence. "I once met an Ultramarine player and he was a jerk; they all must be jerks." Grow up.
This is a thread asking for peoples' opinions about Ultramarines. When surveying for opinion and how that opinion is formed, anecdotal evidence is just as important as any other kind.

Cowboy Creep
07-07-2010, 20:50
And in a game with many factions, that means that every faction that doesn't get anywhere near that much attention comes to dislike the 'poster boys'.

That's no excuse.

It's suddenly a fictional chapters fault that a company decides to use them to advertise? Really? Are we going there?


This is a thread asking for peoples' opinions about Ultramarines. When surveying for opinion and how that opinion is formed, anecdotal evidence is just as important as any other kind.

That's a really weak argument.

You're basing your dislike of a faction on a person? I've met a beardy Space Wolf player who abuses your codex, you must all be like that, right? :eyebrows:

Wolf Lord Balrog
07-07-2010, 20:55
That's no excuse.

It's suddenly a fictional chapters fault that a company decides to use them to advertise? Really? Are we going there?
Who said anything about anything being the Ultramarines' fault? This is a thread about peoples' opinions about UMs, not their objective value. Stop being so defensive.



That's a really weak argument.

You're basing your dislike of a faction on a person? I've met a beardy Space Wolf player who abuses your codex, you must all be like that, right? :eyebrows:
People form opinions for all manner of reasons. That's not an argument, strong or weak, that's a fact. Opinions don't have to be reasonable, that's why they are opinions and not facts.

De gustibus non disputandum est. You can't argue people out of their opinions.

Starchild
07-07-2010, 21:04
A few things I guess spring to mind , Games Workshop (in particular Matt ''I hate Eldar'' Ward) have perhaps presented the Ultramarines in a kinda fan-boy manner in the codex.. Rather than look at the Deep and in my opinion fantastic Lore hidden away at the core of this Chapter they have instead focused on falcon punching Avatars and writing nonsense like ''many chapters aspire to be Ultramarines''..My problem with the Ultramarines is, how can a single chapter be so powerful/famous/perfect/invincible, while apparently taking part in *every* major conflict in the Imperium? It's only one chapter out of roughly a thousand, and so at any given time (according to Gulliman's orders) there can only be 1,000 Ultramarines. Hmmm...

So Mat W., you're telling me that the Ultramarines fight all over the galaxy at a peak fighting strength of 1,000 Space Marines, suddenly appearing wherever they're needed, automatically winning every conflict, without suffering any major losses (Tyrannic War excepted)? I can understand the 2nd founding partititions of the Ultramarines Legion being stationed all over the Imperium, but one chapter taking all the glory? :wtf: This just brings suspension of disbelief to an entirely new level... :(

rant over

Cowboy Creep
07-07-2010, 21:05
Who said anything about anything being the Ultramarines' fault? This is a thread about peoples' opinions about UMs, not their objective value. Stop being so defensive.

Who said I was defensive? I don't even play Imperium, let - alone Ultramarines, slow your roll.

It is a thread about opinions, you're correct - and my opinion is that if you judge an army / faction / race harshly because of the business plan of the company forcing them onto us, you're a chob.


People form opinions for all manner of reasons. That's not an argument, strong or weak, that's a fact. Opinions don't have to be reasonable, that's why they are opinions and not facts.

If you form an opinion of something based upon a bad experience with a single individual I feel quite sorry for you.

Wolf Lord Balrog
07-07-2010, 21:16
Who said I was defensive? I don't even play Imperium, let - alone Ultramarines, slow your roll.

It is a thread about opinions, you're correct - and my opinion is that if you judge an army / faction / race harshly because of the business plan of the company forcing them onto us, you're a chob.
You are nonetheless defending the Ultramarines from other peoples' opinions, which is wholly unnecessary. This is an internet bitch-fest, its not going to change anything. And by your definition, lots of people are chobs, witness the rest of the thread.



If you form an opinion of something based upon a bad experience with a single individual I feel quite sorry for you.
First, who actually said they formed an opinion from a single experience alone? Second, even if they did, that is still their opinion. You don't do anything to change it with your condescension.

Cowboy Creep
07-07-2010, 21:30
You are nonetheless defending the Ultramarines from other peoples' opinions, which is wholly unnecessary. This is an internet bitch-fest, its not going to change anything. And by your definition, lots of people are chobs, witness the rest of the thread.

I call it like I see it.


First, who actually said they formed an opinion from a single experience alone? Second, even if they did, that is still their opinion. You don't do anything to change it with your condescension.

Single experience? Nobody has admitted that thus far. Regardless, even forming said opinion after encountering a few people is ignorant and petty.

Can I change their minds? Probably not.

Can I attempt to show them the error of such simple-minded hatred? Sure can.

yabbadabba
07-07-2010, 21:38
It reeks of a child yelling "They're not just Marines, they're Ultramarines!" Unfortunately you could add that to any army in 40K.


Yet none specifically seem to deal with the Ultramarines, other than noting their general appearance. Holding back Orks, Tyranids, Tau - all could be just as easily done by any other Marine chapter. True, or it could all have been done by 1 - the Ultramarines as there is no need for the other chapters.


The Ultras lack the unique organization and emotions of the Space Wolves and the Black Templar. They lack the paranoia of the Dark Angels. They lack the resolute nature of the Imperial and Crimson Fists. They lack the tragic aspect of the Blood Angels (and even the Raven Guard to some extent, looking at Corax). They lack the mechanical aspects of the Iron Hands. They lack the demon-fighting prowess of the Exorcists and the refined weaponry of the Salamanders. What you are saying here is that to be different you need to feel special? Space Wolves are mutants, Blood Angels are rabid mutants. Dark Angels and Exorcists are traitors and heretics. Iron Hands are self abusers. Crimson Fists are careless. Raven Guard are a non-entity. Ultramarines are the only marine chapter out of that list and out of the first founding loyalists who do exactly what the Emperor designed them for. Need I go on? Its all about perspective. What makes me laugh is that desperate need for people to hate the UMs because they are
a) Blue
b) Good at everything, but excel at no one thing in 40K the game
c) Don't need any teenage rebellious emotional hook to be good
d) and a few porly (re)written bits of background


The Ultramarines are the ultimate average, consistently portrayed as the pinnacle of the Adeptus Astartes. However, there's nothing to really differentiate them from the Mentor Legion, Mantis Warriors, White Consuls, Hawk Lords, etc. Any story you can drop the Ultramarines into can just as easily be filled by another Chapter with little to no story rewriting required*. The tactics are typically the same - what makes the Ultramarines better? Wrong. First many of the chapters have a defined history and character which will slightly redefine the tactics used. Secondly, UMs are defined by characteristics beyond the battlefield, and because this is rarely seen in 40K, people somehow think that makes UMs a lesser chapter? Finally, any chapter can fill in for any other, it makes no difference in the end. You could have had all the marine chapters based on the UM model and it would have made little difference other than to not have something for the emo kids to latch onto.


Not a thing. Yet they're portrayed as the best of the best. Ridiculous stories such as the now infamous "Avatar Punch" and practically every other bit of background relating to Calgar in the 5th edition book do not help.This discussion isn't going to go anywhere or be truly representative of this UM hatred unless people look beyond the last codex. UM hatred has been around for 15 years at least as far as I am concerned.


Are these the same High Lords who are adamant about keeping the Emperor crippled in order to maintain their stranglehold on the Imperium?
I've never trusted the High Lords in the background - their choice of using Captain Average to sort out the military just seems like they chose the Primarch most likely to whine until he got his way. There's are several reasons I like Fulgrim...one of them should be easy to guess ;) Again there is that perspective. Captain Average was the best placed and best organised primarch, had the largest and most complete legion with the most effective support that would go on to make one half of the second founding. Captain Average also made sure his home base was secure, as was is logisitics and organisation so he could support the Imperium recover. In short, Guilleman was the saviour of the future of the Imperium. Another perspective.


I know this one isn't directed at me, but it is worth noting that the Ultramarines also have the Honor Guard in Calgar's box, as well as chapter-specific bits in plastic kits like the Command Squad. Not really because as I have said, there is no Honour Guard models for generic marines. GW have a long established form for making people convert. This is unlike BA or SW where their models are specifically for them or their successors. In my UM successor army I have DA vets for my vets, as there were no vets for UM at the time of me creating the army. If there was a generic Honour Guard box set like in the army list, then I definitely would classify it as a purely UM unit.

Right, I am tired of hearing teenagers fighting for individuality or people who are unable to look beyond a poor author. For me the reason people hate UMs these days is because its a mature person's wargames army swimming in a universe of teen emo marketing.

Corax
07-07-2010, 21:53
What makes me laugh is that desperate need for people to hate the UMs because they are
a) Bland


Fixed that for you. :angel:

Lord_Crull
07-07-2010, 21:55
Yet none specifically seem to deal with the Ultramarines, other than noting their general appearance. Holding back Orks, Tyranids, Tau - all could be just as easily done by any other Marine chapter.


Not really, Tigurius's fluff has interesting bits at Boros for example. The Ultramarines were the first to face the Tyranids and are the most affected of the First Founding. Otherwise one could say that all famous battles for the Space Marine chapters don't have meaning.



The Ultras lack the unique organization and emotions of the Space Wolves and the Black Templar. They lack the paranoia of the Dark Angels. They lack the resolute nature of the Imperial and Crimson Fists. They lack the tragic aspect of the Blood Angels (and even the Raven Guard to some extent, looking at Corax). They lack the mechanical aspects of the Iron Hands. They lack the demon-fighting prowess of the Exorcists and the refined weaponry of the Salamanders.


And that's a problem.............how? They are pretty much the only chapter to use a Spartan esque system. They have a rich Greco-Roman tapestry to draw from. They are one of the few chapters who rule their people more closely than most. The only other one I can think of are the Salamanders.

They don't need grimdark curses or a tragic past to do their job. They simply go about in the most efficent and regimented manner. They cut straight to the point and get the job done.


However, there's nothing to really differentiate them from the Mentor Legion,

Incorrect, the Mentors are noted for their isolation in the latest codex.


Mantis Warriors, .

Incorrect, the Mantis Warriors almost went traitor and are on a pentient crusade. They also have a special cadre of warriors.


White Consuls, .

Also incorrect. The White Consuls worhsip the Emperor as a God (Dark Creed) and had protectorate in fifty systems and have a unique honor system. In addition they took heavy losses to the Word Bearers.


White Consuls, Hawk Lords, .

Again, incorrect, the Hawk Lords distain drop pods.


Any story you can drop the Ultramarines into can just as easily be filled by another Chapter with little to no story rewriting required*.


Doubtful, it depends on how the writer handles the Ultramarines own view of things and personal culture.


The tactics are typically the same - what makes the Ultramarines better?


What does? Real stories are not about tactics, but about the personalites of characters and how they interact and percive others. The Ultramarines are disciplined and organized, they have a history of working closely with normal humans.



Not a thing. Yet they're portrayed as the best of the best. Ridiculous stories such as the now infamous "Avatar Punch" and practically every other bit of background relating to Calgar in the 5th edition book do not help.


Not really. The Space Wolf codex claims that the Imperium would fall without the Space Wolves. The Blood Angels Codex has a short blurb on how the Blood Angels were the Emperor's Honor Guard during the Great Crusade and Heresy (Guess the Fists did't get the memo) and how Horus feared Sanguinus the most, on how the Blood Angels are the most honorable servants of the Imperium, etc, etc.

In fact Mephiston rips apart Tyranid carnifexes with his bare hands and Grimnar has a hall of acomplishments the size of the Wolves Great Hall. It's easy to find other OTT stuff about other chapters.

In fact the 5th Edition is more to blame for the OTT nature of fluff than anything else. Prior to that The Ultramarines were more of the disciplined Roman tacticians, the Space Wolves savage, but honorable warriors, and the Blood Angels not the Emperor's Honor Guard.



Are these the same High Lords who are adamant about keeping the Emperor crippled in order to maintain their stranglehold on the Imperium?


Nope, that's actually almost complete fanon from what I can tell. In fact the Master of the Custodes had a post on the High Lords even. There is no indication that they are keeping him crippled at all.



I've never trusted the High Lords in the background - their choice of using Captain Average to sort out the military just seems like they chose the Primarch most likely to whine until he got his way. There's are several reasons I like Fulgrim...one of them should be easy to guess ;)


It should be obvious. Guilliman was best at paperwork and reorganization. Dorn was blinded by vengance, Russ would never have the patience for the task, Lion was betrayed by Luther and gone. Vulkan disappeared. Corax went into the Eye of Terror, the Khan disappeared fighting Dark Eldar (Not to mention he was probably like Russ, too wild) And Sanguinus and Ferrus Mannus were dead.

Seems like the obvious choice to me.



I know this one isn't directed at me, but it is worth noting that the Ultramarines also have the Honor Guard in Calgar's box, as well as chapter-specific bits in plastic kits like the Command Squad.

And if we include them as veterans I can note that the Space Wolves get their own veteran upgrade bits and so do the Blood Angels in Sanguinary Guard and Death Company (All in plastic BTW, not like the metal Honor Guard)

Wolf Lord Balrog
07-07-2010, 21:56
Right, I am tired of hearing teenagers fighting for individuality or people who are unable to look beyond a poor author. For me the reason people hate UMs these days is because its a mature person's wargames army swimming in a universe of teen emo marketing.

Right, I am tired of listening to old people defending their conformism or people unable to recognize poor writing. For me the reason people hate UMs these days is because its a boring Mary Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue) army swimming in a universe of individualistic factions.

cwutIdidthur? :)

Lord Nestron
07-07-2010, 22:02
I am gonna say it this way I did the usal Mary Sue test and he came out over 80.... anything over 30 is mary sue on the run ;)

KingDeath
07-07-2010, 22:04
Instead of just Ultramarines as the archetypical Codex adherent chapter GW should have focused a bit more on the many interesting second founding chapters. Why was Orar's Tomb defended by the Ultramarines and not, the Sons of Orar? Or perhaps the White Consuls? Why was it an Ultramarine strikeforce which fought the Necrons at Damnos and not one of the Silverskulls or the Nova Marines?

A bit more variation in the fluff department would have done the "Codex Spacemarines" good i think. This way we would have much less people crying about the nasty Ultramarines which stole all the glory/ are bland/ eat babies.

Cowboy Creep
07-07-2010, 22:07
Right, I am tired of listening to old people defending their conformism or people unable to recognize poor writing. For me the reason people hate UMs these days is because its a boring Mary Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue) army swimming in a universe of individualistic factions.

cwutIdidthur? :)

I know you're attempting to annoy him, and not much else.. but a Space Wolf calling out the Ultramarines for bad writing is comedic gold. :rolleyes:

Daniel36
07-07-2010, 22:10
So I ask you guys! why is it that the Ultramarines take so much flak from the 40k Community ?


It's because they are blue... And not the nice kind of blue... No, the plastic kind of blue...

Wolf Lord Balrog
07-07-2010, 22:13
I know you're attempting to annoy him, and not much else.. but a Space Wolf calling out the Ultramarines for bad writing is comedic gold. :rolleyes:

I've admitted in more than one place that the 5th Ed SWs fluff is crap. I just ignore that it exists.

Lord Aaron
07-07-2010, 22:25
What makes me laugh is that desperate need for people to hate the "insert haters names here" because "they" are
a) Bland
b) Haters
c) *******


Fixed that for you. :D

*THEY! made me do it....*

Sandlemad
07-07-2010, 22:49
I've admitted in more than one place that the 5th Ed SWs fluff is crap. I just ignore that it exists.

Which you can't do for 5th ed UM fluff because...

Wolf Lord Balrog
07-07-2010, 23:18
Which you can't do for 5th ed UM fluff because...

Look to my previous posts, I'm not one of the ones jumping on the 5th Ed fluff as a reason to dislike the UMs. And bear in mind, that's all it is, mild dislike, I don't hate anything in 40k, its just a game.

Vaktathi
08-07-2010, 00:46
Right, I am tired of hearing teenagers fighting for individuality or people who are unable to look beyond a poor author. It's hard when that's the official source material and is highly promoted.


For me the reason people hate UMs these days is because its a mature person's wargames army swimming in a universe of teen emo marketing.

Really? Typically the shining heroes who have no faults are the default favorite of the wee ones. They are like Superman, very cool when you are a little kid because *wham* *pow* *bang* and he defeats everything. Boring when you grow up and realize how unimaginative, repetitive, and formulaic that is. Mary Sue's typically are not that which is usually associated with maturity. We're not talking about needing to be angsty teenage emo here, that's entirely in your own mind. But being the unbeatable, perfect at everything they do faction does not make them the "mature persons army".


Look at the Grey Knights, they are fairly similar in that they are incorruptable and win just about every engagement written about them, but they only fight a very specific foes and only appear in the most dire of circumstances. They can't and won't fight anything that comes their way. You won't see them heading off armored columns or fighting unending hordes of weenies. You see them fighting the core of Daemonic corruption and the mightiest daemons, and then retreating to recover their losses. They aren't anywhere and everywhere at once being amazing at everything, they typically take painful losses given the nature of their work, have a much more subtle name, and they aren't slapped on every piece of marketing material. Hence, there is little e-hate for them.

Your statement is odd because part of the stereotype of UM's is that they *are*, whether they deserve it or not, the army most associated with "noobs". They don't want to play anything but the best of the best, the guys that never lose. Personally, I've yet to see a UM army that wasn't built as someones intro army, and I gather I'm not exactly alone in that. Even if people aren't playing Ultramarines, that book is still the basis for the vast majority of beginners armies, which indirectly fuels the stereotype further.

loveless
08-07-2010, 01:09
True, or it could all have been done by 1 - the Ultramarines as there is no need for the other chapters.

Which makes you wonder what the point is.


What you are saying here is that to be different you need to feel special?

Er...no? I'm saying that to be different you need to be different.


Space Wolves are mutants,

...and?


Blood Angels are rabid mutants.

Hooray for generalizations...or is that your point here? :eyebrows:


Dark Angels and Exorcists are traitors and heretics.

Dark Angels are paranoid individuals afraid they'll be labeled as heretics due to the actions of their kind.

Exorcists are subjected to additional "conditioning" at the hands of Daemon Hunters in order to improve their combat capabilities and resistance against daemons...so I don't know what you're getting at here.


Iron Hands are self abusers. Crimson Fists are careless. Raven Guard are a non-entity.

Ah, yep, over-generalizations. That's okay - I was doing it too in the pursuit of making quasi-concise posts - clearly not going to be able to do that this time.


Ultramarines are the only marine chapter out of that list and out of the first founding loyalists who do exactly what the Emperor designed them for. Need I go on? Its all about perspective. What makes me laugh is that desperate need for people to hate the UMs because they are
a) Blue
b) Good at everything, but excel at no one thing in 40K the game
c) Don't need any teenage rebellious emotional hook to be good
d) and a few porly (re)written bits of background

You realize you're coming off as a pompous old jerk here, right? And I know, I know - ad hominem attack, but seriously, you're one step away from calling me an "emo kid" and doing it to me.


Wrong. First many of the chapters have a defined history and character which will slightly redefine the tactics used.

Key word highlighted.


Secondly, UMs are defined by characteristics beyond the battlefield, and because this is rarely seen in 40K, people somehow think that makes UMs a lesser chapter? Finally, any chapter can fill in for any other, it makes no difference in the end. You could have had all the marine chapters based on the UM model and it would have made little difference other than to not have something for the emo kids to latch onto.

I don't think it makes them a lesser chapter. I think it makes them a generic chapter that is needlessly characterized as the greatest chapter ever. You know what would have made it easier? If they had just referred to Ultramarines as the largest chapter, or the most wide-reaching chapter. These are acceptable descriptors that don't saddle the Ultras with unneeded greatness.

Also, watch out for those "emo kid" comments. I doubt you fully grasp the meaning of the phrase, anyway - people tend to throw it around a lot.


This discussion isn't going to go anywhere or be truly representative of this UM hatred unless people look beyond the last codex. UM hatred has been around for 15 years at least as far as I am concerned.

So...you like the Ultramarines in some impotent attempt to be different from the crowd?


Again there is that perspective. Captain Average was the best placed and best organised primarch, had the largest and most complete legion with the most effective support that would go on to make one half of the second founding. Captain Average also made sure his home base was secure, as was is logisitics and organisation so he could support the Imperium recover. In short, Guilleman was the saviour of the future of the Imperium. Another perspective.

I'll give you that. Regardless, Guilleman does come off as rather insistent and somewhat "superior" to his brothers. Perhaps, however, that is a side-effect of the task placed upon him. I still find him to be a bit boring compared to several of his siblings - but that's what happens in a large family.


Right, I am tired of hearing teenagers fighting for individuality or people who are unable to look beyond a poor author. For me the reason people hate UMs these days is because its a mature person's wargames army swimming in a universe of teen emo marketing.

There it is again, the "teen" and "emo" crap-spewing. Would you like me to fetch you a glass of Metamucil and some prunes so you can settle down and talk about the good old days? I mean, what the hell is up with using "teen" and "emo" in derogatory forms? Surely you can come up with ways to show your displeasure without negatively referencing an age-group and a fashion/music/art movement - I mean, you don't seem unintelligent, just insensitive.


Not really, Tigurius's fluff has interesting bits at Boros for example. The Ultramarines were the first to face the Tyranids and are the most affected of the First Founding.

Character bits don't really count for establishing the chapter as a whole - for instance, Calgar isn't fully representative of his chapter, since he obviously does overtly ridiculous things that other members of his chapter would avoid.

For Tyranids, yes, they've got that going for them. At the same time, though, it doesn't seem as dramatic as the Blood Angels near-destruction all those years before the Sin of Damnation incident. Though that's relatively new background, so maybe that doesn't count for your arguments...


And that's a problem.............how? They are pretty much the only chapter to use a Spartan esque system. They have a rich Greco-Roman tapestry to draw from. They are one of the few chapters who rule their people more closely than most. The only other one I can think of are the Salamanders.

But none of that is really shown. They talk about all their background and supposed individuality only to then present them as the standard? You can't have it both ways. The annoyance is that they're listed as these great and amazing warriors, the best of all Astartes, only to then be nearly the same as every other Codex chapter? I understand they're supposed to be the defining example of a Codex chapter - if so, fine.

Talk about Ultramar. Talk about the people. Talk about how they give up so much when they become Marines in order to follow the Codex. That's fine. Do not sit and define them as the greatest of them all, do not offer them up as the shining knights that everyone wants to be. They're not. They're the guys at the front desk who give you the orientation materials (i.e. Codex Astartes) and live by it. They're the priests to the Catholics, the rabbis to the Jews - they live by the code that others acknowledge, but rarely adhere to as closely. Yet we're told that other chapters act in the same way - a universe full of priests and rabbis, with the non-Astartes serving as the huddled congregation.

Why are the Ultramarines put on so high a pedestal when they're little more than the equals of so many other Codex chapters? Why this chapter? Why say they're better when they're the same?


They don't need grimdark curses or a tragic past to do their job. They simply go about in the most efficent and regimented manner. They cut straight to the point and get the job done.

Right. They're Marines. It's not a matter of what they do, it's a matter of how it's portrayed.



[stuff about chapters

And Ultramarines are just Marines in Greco-Roman equipment, who were once almost eaten by space bugs.

The literary focus could be on any of them, but it's always the Ultramarines who end up as the poster boys.



What does? Real stories are not about tactics, but about the personalites of characters and how they interact and percive others. The Ultramarines are disciplined and organized, they have a history of working closely with normal humans.

This part just made me smile, because I've made the exact same comment about stories in various fictional settings only to get told that the stories are about the tactics and that the characters just as well be nameless grunts. I'd grown so accustomed to hearing that from WarSeer-esque forumites that it's become the default stance when reading over background commentary.



Not really. The Space Wolf codex claims that the Imperium would fall without the Space Wolves. The Blood Angels Codex has a short blurb on how the Blood Angels were the Emperor's Honor Guard during the Great Crusade and Heresy (Guess the Fists did't get the memo) and how Horus feared Sanguinus the most, on how the Blood Angels are the most honorable servants of the Imperium, etc, etc.

In fact Mephiston rips apart Tyranid carnifexes with his bare hands and Grimnar has a hall of acomplishments the size of the Wolves Great Hall. It's easy to find other OTT stuff about other chapters.

Yet it feels far less strange from other chapters. We know those chapters are unique in more than just name. They have their own style of fighting, their own motives - they're given enough individuality to make us expect over the top actions.

I suppose that's perhaps the problem with the Ultramarines. They're given as much attention as the "unique" chapters, but are hardly different from the "codex" chapters.

So tell me, why Ultramarines? Why not Imperial Fists? Crimson Fists? Iron Knights? Sable Swords? Howling Griffons? What makes the Ultramarines more deserving of the poster boy title than any other codex chapter?


In fact the 5th Edition is more to blame for the OTT nature of fluff than anything else. Prior to that The Ultramarines were more of the disciplined Roman tacticians, the Space Wolves savage, but honorable warriors, and the Blood Angels not the Emperor's Honor Guard.

I don't recall them being any more tactical than any other codex chapter in 4th or 3rd edition either. Mind you, maybe Ward's ridiculous writing did shake some of the memories loose, but they always seemed like "standard" Marines. A skeletal story waiting for a hook.

The hook of "greatest marines" could have worked, too - if they weren't then described to follow the same damn set of rules and tactics that govern numerous other chapters in the universe. Perhaps it's more disappointment than hatred that powers the anti-Ultra sentiment - perhaps even a twinge of jealousy.



Nope, that's actually almost complete fanon from what I can tell. In fact the Master of the Custodes had a post on the High Lords even. There is no indication that they are keeping him crippled at all.

Perhaps, perhaps not. With all the power they have now, with the force of the Imperial Cult, with money flowing into their pockets, they certainly have no reason to try and "fix" the Emperor.

Then again, I've always thought the Thorians had the right idea.



It should be obvious. Guilliman was best at paperwork and reorganization. Dorn was blinded by vengance, Russ would never have the patience for the task, Lion was betrayed by Luther and gone. Vulkan disappeared. Corax went into the Eye of Terror, the Khan disappeared fighting Dark Eldar (Not to mention he was probably like Russ, too wild) And Sanguinus and Ferrus Mannus were dead.

Addressed earlier - I'll say that the Ultramarine Primarch likely feels repulsive at this stage in history due to the nature of the task placed on him.



And if we include them as veterans I can note that the Space Wolves get their own veteran upgrade bits and so do the Blood Angels in Sanguinary Guard and Death Company (All in plastic BTW, not like the metal Honor Guard)

Well, yeah...go for it :p The metal honor guard are great models, but semi-old compared to the plastic kits. Ultras are little more than poster-boy Codex marines - any claim they have to plastic kits are just as well given to another Codex chapter. Another effect of the random assignment of Ultras as the shining knights.

Lord_Crull
08-07-2010, 01:42
Character bits don't really count for establishing the chapter as a whole - for instance, Calgar isn't fully representative of his chapter, since he obviously does overtly ridiculous things that other members of his chapter would avoid.


No, not really. Characters are a part and parcal of the whole. For many people Ragnar is an important part of the Space Wolf fluff, or the same for Tycho.



For Tyranids, yes, they've got that going for them. At the same time, though, it doesn't seem as dramatic as the Blood Angels near-destruction all those years before the Sin of Damnation incident. Though that's relatively new background, so maybe that doesn't count for your arguments...


A matter of opinion then. The Battle of Macraage and the loss of their First Company is far more fleshed out and interesting to me than a brief mention in Space Hulk.



But none of that is really shown. .

Have you ever read Assault on Black Reach? Or Chapter's Due? or Heroes of the Space Marines? That aspect is fleshed out quite well in those books.


They talk about all their background and supposed individuality only to then present them as the standard? .

Adherance to the codex and their own unique personality are different things. No Chapter can really claim the Ultramarines's history of Macraggian ideals.

Ultramarines are the ''standard'' codex chapter because they wrote the book in the first place. It's only to be expected that they follow it.


The annoyance is that they're listed as these great and amazing warriors, the best of all Astartes, only to then be nearly the same as every other Codex chapter? I understand they're supposed to be the defining example of a Codex chapter - if so, fine.


They are? Funny. Reading the Space Wolf Codex I get the impression that the SW are the best chapter and then reading the Blood Angels codex I get the same impression. (Although more in the Blood Angels codex truthfully)



Talk about Ultramar. Talk about the people. Talk about how they give up so much when they become Marines in order to follow the Codex. That's fine. .

They do, read the Uriel Ventris books.


They're not. They're the guys at the front desk who give you the orientation materials (i.e. Codex Astartes) and live by it. They're the priests to the Catholics, the rabbis to the Jews - they live by the code that others acknowledge, but rarely adhere to as closely. Yet we're told that other chapters act in the same way - a universe full of priests and rabbis, with the non-Astartes serving as the huddled congregation.

Why are the Ultramarines put on so high a pedestal when they're little more than the equals of so many other Codex chapters? Why this chapter? Why say they're better when they're the same?


I hesitate to call the Ultramarines ''better'' honestly. Most Codex Chapters are descended from them and do their best to follow the Codex. The Ultramarines hold Guilliman's body and rule his homeplanet, which naturally would make them closest to his ideals.

They would be expected to adhere to the Codex exactly. Other chapters may not adhere so closely. The Marine codex points out that while other Ultramarine sucessors try to follow the codex they maintain their own distinct indentity.



And Ultramarines are just Marines in Greco-Roman equipment, who were once almost eaten by space bugs.

The literary focus could be on any of them, but it's always the Ultramarines who end up as the poster boys.


Again, not really. Look at Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade. Grimnar commanded all Astartes forces in the Crusade and Dante commanded the Astartes forces in the Second.

The Ultramarines have their share of glory, but just because they appear on the box art does not mean they always end up as the poster boys in the fluff.



Yet it feels far less strange from other chapters. We know those chapters are unique in more than just name. They have their own style of fighting, their own motives - they're given enough individuality to make us expect over the top actions.


No, there is no excuse. there should be no reasons why a Blood Angels can do cool things but the Ultramarines cannot.



I suppose that's perhaps the problem with the Ultramarines. They're given as much attention as the "unique" chapters, but are hardly different from the "codex" chapters.

So tell me, why Ultramarines? Why not Imperial Fists? Crimson Fists? Iron Knights? Sable Swords? Howling Griffons? What makes the Ultramarines more deserving of the poster boy title than any other codex chapter?


They invented the Codex of course. It would not make much sense to do a Codex: Angels Encarmine and feature the Blood Angels in a minor role for example. As for the Sable Swords, Howling Griffons, etc, etc. It's simple.

First Founding.

Like it or not the First Founding Chapters are the most famous of the Marines. It's been that way since 2nd edition. (Also the Ultramariens appeared before most of the other named chapters.

If we look at the First Founding we have both the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists who are noted to be 100% Codex. (Raven Guard, White Scars, Iron Hands and Salamanders all diverge in some way) Now which do we use? the guys who invented it and spread their doctrine to hunderds of other chapters or the guys who adopted it from the Ultramarines?

It's an obvious choice really.



I don't recall them being any more tactical than any other codex chapter in 4th or 3rd edition either. Mind you, maybe Ward's ridiculous writing did shake some of the memories loose, but they always seemed like "standard" Marines. A skeletal story waiting for a hook.


They were the paragons of the Codex. the Ultramarines have been described in the White Dwarf Battle for Macragge,, Codex Tyranids and Battle of the Abyss for their Tactical abiltities. I would expect them to be the bookworms of the Astartes.



The hook of "greatest marines" could have worked, too - if they weren't then described to follow the same damn set of rules and tactics that govern numerous other chapters in the universe. Perhaps it's more disappointment than hatred that powers the anti-Ultra sentiment - perhaps even a twinge of jealousy.


Again, rules and tactics do not define a chapter's personality. History and tradition do.



Perhaps, perhaps not. With all the power they have now, with the force of the Imperial Cult, with money flowing into their pockets, they certainly have no reason to try and "fix" the Emperor.

Then again, I've always thought the Thorians had the right idea.


Again, the Master of the Custodes, the Emperor's personal bodyguard loyal only to him, have a spot on the High Lords.

I really don't get were this idea of the power-hungry High Lords come from. Without them the Imperium would be a warring mass of balkanized kingdoms. Without them humanity would fall apart.

All things considering they probably have the most stressful job in the Imperium, considering just how many aliens and daemons are clamouring to feast upon it.



Addressed earlier - I'll say that the Ultramarine Primarch likely feels repulsive at this stage in history due to the nature of the task placed on him.


Why would he feel repulsive? In Guilliman's point of view he is healing the Imperium of the terrible wounds suffere during the Heresy. Never again will someone have as much as as Horus. without Guilliman's reforms we would not have the Imperial Navy and Army. I would imagine he would have felt honored to do it.



Well, yeah...go for it :p The metal honor guard are great models, but semi-old compared to the plastic kits. Ultras are little more than poster-boy Codex marines - any claim they have to plastic kits are just as well given to another Codex chapter. Another effect of the random assignment of Ultras as the shining knights.

How is it that they are shining knights when everybody can use those kits? (Althought most Space Marines really are shining knight sin some form of another)

I won't argue that they appear on the box art all the time, but actual chapter-specific models outside of special characters are mostly metal in comparison to the plastic spures avalible to the other chapters.

Tokugawa100
08-07-2010, 05:10
I actually like the Ultramarines, I simply wish they would tone them down a bit.

H.LaFever
08-07-2010, 10:42
40k history cf and ultra


In WD 97 the Ultramarines were introduced to 40k as a third founding chapter. Their Primarch Guilliman was a great Imperial Guard commander, he was chosen as the leader of the chapter.

Here is the text WD 97:
Chapter Ultra-marine of the Legiones Astartes was founding during the inter-legionary wars of the thirty-second millennium. Tradition places the date at 4001001.M32 - the very first day of the millennium. The chapter is therefore over eight thousand years old, making it a chapter of the third founding.
Upon its inception, the Emperor gave the chapter the number 13 - formerly the number of one of the traitor legions now banished to the Eye of Terror 'without number and name with all honors erased'
As we know this was later changed and they are now listed as a first founding chapter.

It is true that the Ultramarines were a third founding chapter and Guilliman was a really great Imperial Guard Commander.
Is it be so hard to understand why many of the original legions initially refused to follow High Lords of Terra recommendations?
We now have the Horus Heresy Books that confirm this tension.
Would it not make sense for the High Lords to create a Puppet that would promote and enforce their mandates?
It makes a lot more sense when you look at the reactions of the real loyalist Legions.

Plus the Ultra marines are cowards and manipulators. They are the real usurpers of the empire. The real power behind the empire is that of the Ultimar empire, and the high lords of terra are puppets for the hidden smurf usurpers!


Many of the Primarchs were very opposed to the splitting of their legions? Let’s take a look at the Crimson Fists who were originally a first founding legion and their brothers in the Imperial Fists. In the current fluff one begat the other, what if great treachery on the part of the High Lord forced them to hide the truth.

So now My chapter is a second founding (instead of first founding) and the UM's are moved to a founding position, thats just gay.

That is also why my legion fight against the ultimar empire and its terran lackies.

and dont get me started about Ollanius Pius, he will always be a terran hero, even if the smurf usurpers have tried to write him out of 'history'! lol

off topic- what we need is a non-chaos renegade space marine codex, just sayin...

Spare Change
08-07-2010, 10:48
How can you dislike the color blue!? You people are insane! :confused:

Lord_Crull
08-07-2010, 10:54
40k history cf and ultra


In WD 97 the Ultramarines were introduced to 40k as a third founding chapter. Their Primarch Guilliman was a great Imperial Guard commander, he was chosen as the leader of the chapter.

Here is the text WD 97:
Chapter Ultra-marine of the Legiones Astartes was founding during the inter-legionary wars of the thirty-second millennium. Tradition places the date at 4001001.M32 - the very first day of the millennium. The chapter is therefore over eight thousand years old, making it a chapter of the third founding.
Upon its inception, the Emperor gave the chapter the number 13 - formerly the number of one of the traitor legions now banished to the Eye of Terror 'without number and name with all honors erased'
As we know this was later changed and they are now listed as a first founding chapter.

It is true that the Ultramarines were a third founding chapter and Guilliman was a really great Imperial Guard Commander.
Is it be so hard to understand why many of the original legions initially refused to follow High Lords of Terra recommendations?
We now have the Horus Heresy Books that confirm this tension.
Would it not make sense for the High Lords to create a Puppet that would promote and enforce their mandates?
It makes a lot more sense when you look at the reactions of the real loyalist Legions.

Plus the Ultra marines are cowards and manipulators. They are the real usurpers of the empire. The real power behind the empire is that of the Ultimar empire, and the high lords of terra are puppets for the hidden smurf usurpers!


Many of the Primarchs were very opposed to the splitting of their legions? Letís take a look at the Crimson Fists who were originally a first founding legion and their brothers in the Imperial Fists. In the current fluff one begat the other, what if great treachery on the part of the High Lord forced them to hide the truth.

So now My chapter is a second founding (instead of first founding) and the UM's are moved to a founding position, thats just gay.

That is also why my legion fight against the ultimar empire and its terran lackies.

and dont get me started about Ollanius Pius, he will always be a terran hero, even if the smurf usurpers have tried to write him out of 'history'! lol

off topic- what we need is a non-chaos renegade space marine codex, just sayin...

Actually no. That's from Rogue Trader. You know? In the days were Marines had Shuiriken catapaults and lasguns and the Space Wolves homeworld was named Lucan and they were the same as any other chapter.

In fact the Primarchs did not even exist back in Rogue Trader. Russ was a Guard commander.:eyebrows:

Xelloss
08-07-2010, 11:15
Ultramarines are the only marine chapter out of that list and out of the first founding loyalists who do exactly what the Emperor designed them for.
WROOOOOOOONG ! :p (OMG someone is wrong on the internet !)
Black Templars are the ones who do exactly as the Emperor designed them for : an army to conquer enemy territories, with an organization quite similar to the Legions. Ultramarines mostly defend their own Realm inside the Emperium, and place themselves as a leading figure over their successor chapters.


How can you dislike the color blue!? You people are insane! :confused:
Blue is fine. Yellow on blue is ugly.

Corax
08-07-2010, 11:16
Don't forget Rubineck! Everyone forgets Rubineck. Some Primarchs get no respect... :rolleyes:

Zweischneid
08-07-2010, 11:18
Blue is fine. Yellow on blue is ugly.

And every fair day in your life, you stand outside raging at the sun in the sky?

Jerrus
08-07-2010, 11:38
Do not sit and define them as the greatest of them all, do not offer them up as the shining knights that everyone wants to be. They're not. They're the guys at the front desk who give you the orientation materials (i.e. Codex Astartes) and live by it. They're the priests to the Catholics, the rabbis to the Jews - they live by the code that others acknowledge, but rarely adhere to as closely. Yet we're told that other chapters act in the same way - a universe full of priests and rabbis, with the non-Astartes serving as the huddled congregation.

Why are the Ultramarines put on so high a pedestal when they're little more than the equals of so many other Codex chapters? Why this chapter? Why say they're better when they're the same?

But they are the greatest chapter, it is even written in thier codex, you just can't seem to accept it.

They don't just meet the standards, they set the standards.

Tak
08-07-2010, 19:46
Hey Guys, I ask you guys! why is it that the Ultramarines take so much flak from the 40k Community?

Just my Thoughts,
Farseer Dave.

I'm not kidding here but Marneus Calgar reminds me of George Bush. I think it's because of the link between the Ultramarines and a roman legion with its senators and what have you and so...Marneus Calgar is George Bush!

Maybe many others, albeit unwittingly, draw the same conclusion on a subconscious level. Think about it... Marneus 'Dubya' Calgar eh?

Or am I just talking a load of poo? Apologies in advance if so.

Wolf Lord Balrog
08-07-2010, 20:41
Or am I just talking a load of poo? Apologies in advance if so.

I'm gonna go with load of poo. Calgar's problem, from a fluff perspective, is the he is the Boring Invincible Hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero?from=Main.BoringInvincibleHero) of the 40k Universe. That's kinda the opposite of GWB, the man that turned everything he touched to crap.

H.LaFever
08-07-2010, 21:49
Actually no. That's from Rogue Trader. You know? :

Ill have to dig out my copy of RT, you may be right, it was a long time ago, and my memory isnt what it used to be. I am an old man (41)

But you missed the main point, the Ultra Marines are usurpers, empowered by a shadowey cabal of terran overlords (gw writers), and retconed into history, taking over an empire they didnt even really fight for.

they stayed on the sidelines, 'oh, were busy' 'oh, were defending ultimar'..
whatever

Its like in the real world... ultras are the bully boys (seiu), put in a posistion of power by high lords of terra (zionist/commie sympathizers), for the purpose of controling the other legions (citizens and adherants to the second amend.)

i guess art does imitate life... :(

Lord_Crull
08-07-2010, 23:03
Ill have to dig out my copy of RT, you may be right, it was a long time ago, and my memory isnt what it used to be. I am an old man (41)

But you missed the main point, the Ultra Marines are usurpers, empowered by a shadowey cabal of terran overlords (gw writers), and retconed into history, taking over an empire they didnt even really fight for.


No, not really. Rt fluff does not apply to the current day. Otherwise we would have half-eldar Librarians and all sorts of weird stuff.




they stayed on the sidelines, 'oh, were busy' 'oh, were defending ultimar'..
whatever


actually no. Guilliman of the Heresy until Horus was at Terra and Lorgar ambushed him. When he could he went straight there and detroyed one of Horus's fleets along the way.



Its like in the real world... ultras are the bully boys (seiu), put in a posistion of power by high lords of terra (zionist/commie sympathizers), for the purpose of controling the other legions (citizens and adherants to the second amend.)

i guess art does imitate life... :(

Careful, you are getting dangerously close to being off-topic here.

Not to mention it's untrue by the way.

H.LaFever
09-07-2010, 06:23
"Rt fluff does not apply to the current day",

maybe not to the younger gamers, but RT was something really special when it came out, sad 'fluff revisionism' and 'tournament streamlining' is destroying the old ways. hell, even ollanius pius doesnt get love.

your corrections of 'history' are only right in that you are quoting from the 'revised official history' lol

thats like obama saying the black panthers didnt intimidate voters and seiu really care about fair elections.

but back to the topic, the original poster wanted to know why people hated the ultra marines.

I gave my reason for disliking them, so how can I be wrong? it is MY personal reason.

Gw and fanboys can change the history, its gw's deal, but the original story is why I still love 40k (RT) and not the revised fluff of today.
and it remains the reason I hate the usurper ultramarines, pretenders to the empire.

and besides, didnt lognar say that guilliman was in charge of the imperial glory hole? blue could secretly be the new slaneesh purple, just sayin...

Xelloss
09-07-2010, 08:21
And every fair day in your life, you stand outside raging at the sun in the sky?

Of course ! :D

More seriously, two primary colours don't go well together if they are not separated by intermediary colours - the sun and the sky are not simply yellow on blue.
The problem is, most newbies don't use highlighting or shading, so the result is plain ugly - it looks cheap and kinder-grade level.

Lord_Crull
09-07-2010, 10:34
"Rt fluff does not apply to the current day",

maybe not to the younger gamers, but RT was something really special when it came out, sad 'fluff revisionism' and 'tournament streamlining' is destroying the old ways. hell, even ollanius pius doesnt get love.

your corrections of 'history' are only right in that you are quoting from the 'revised official history' lol


So the Squats exist and we have half-Eldar Librarians? Cool to know. I think that all the space wolf players would be glad to known that Russ is no longer a primarch then.



thats like obama saying the black panthers didnt intimidate voters and seiu really care about fair elections.


Going dangerously off-topic here.



Gw and fanboys can change the history, its gw's deal, but the original story is why I still love 40k (RT) and not the revised fluff of today.
and it remains the reason I hate the usurper ultramarines, pretenders to the empire.


Not really. RT's been retconned ever since Second Edition. The Ultramarines of then were obviously not the Ultramarines of today. (Or Second Edition)



and besides, didnt lognar say that guilliman was in charge of the imperial glory hole? blue could secretly be the new slaneesh purple, just sayin...

Lorgar did not exist back in RT. Or at least not as a Primarch.:rolleyes:

kane40k
09-07-2010, 10:45
For me its purely the fact that theyre seen EVER|YWHERE and im frankly bored of the colour blue.

Also alot of new players pick them up when they first play the game and (probably due to age and the people ive playes with untill about 16-17) when i think of new players i think of the more spiteful and loud young players ive only just got away from after leaving the school club.

its not a majour thing when i see ultramarines, im not like GRRRR and i know some older players that play them who are totaly awsome dudes, BUT it may have a slight bearing on my 'distaste' for them. i wont say hate because a well painted Ultramarines army looks fairly cool :)

it may also just be because i got up about 2 hours ago and have only had one coffee.... time to put the kettle on :)

TimLeeson
09-07-2010, 11:00
Instead of just Ultramarines as the archetypical Codex adherent chapter GW should have focused a bit more on the many interesting second founding chapters. Why was Orar's Tomb defended by the Ultramarines and not, the Sons of Orar? Or perhaps the White Consuls? Why was it an Ultramarine strikeforce which fought the Necrons at Damnos and not one of the Silverskulls or the Nova Marines?

A bit more variation in the fluff department would have done the "Codex Spacemarines" good i think. This way we would have much less people crying about the nasty Ultramarines which stole all the glory/ are bland/ eat babies.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. As previously said, im not a "hater", more that id rather see lesser known chapters fleshed out for variety and balance-sake. I dont really blame the smurfs for that, more the author of the backround-section though.

Ellythrion
09-07-2010, 11:05
I think the principle reason I dislike the Ultramarines is a combination of some of the things you've said, but most notably yes, the simplification of the fluff.

Any sense of the deeper subtlety is kind of belittling and overshadowed by all the nonsense Avatar-snapping and bigging up of how other chapters apparently kiss photos of Marneus Calgar goodnight.

In any form of dramatic fiction or any interesting tales the interest always lies where there is depth to characters, subtlety, conflict and arcs. Blatant flawless perfection is rarely interesting or appealing because the vast majority of people prefer something with a little more subtext and interest. After a while, an image of perfection and very little underneath (that GW are allowing at least) becomes stale and clinical. It's ultimately Luke Skywalker vs Han Solo, with the latter being far more popular as a character. Squeaky clean, perfect attitude versus someone with much more depth, charisma and not so clean-cut a nature.

Another element which can be attributed to their unpopularity in my opinion is the over-saturation effect. There always tends to be some form of backlash when people are constantly bombarded with the same thing over and over (and its true in practically every entertainment medium in the world), and GW's clear preference for Space Marines and Ultramarines in particular eventually wears thin even on people who aren't MEQ haters. That it is done with such incredible cheese and stupidity (again, the Avatar sucker-punch and the whole notion of other chapters wanting to be them) does nothing but add fuel to the fire - people don't like being told what's the best or what they must like and aspire to.

Mart007
09-07-2010, 11:07
For me its the 2nd ed paint job they got from Eavy Metal, Bright blue with bright yellow trim... horrible even then.

I have seen some nicely painted ones since in more grittier tones, but that 2nd ed paint scheme has left a bad taste...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z472mqw2unY/S8VXtS8jvUI/AAAAAAAAAIs/kfAnCFQIBiY/s1600/Ultramarine_Razorback.gif

thankfully the yellow has been replace by metalics... but can you imagine anything going to war painted like that!???

x-esiv-4c
09-07-2010, 11:22
Lets not forget that UM chief librarian is half Eldar. Filthy!

But yeah, all that RT fluff is still considered canon. Live with it :p

Corax
09-07-2010, 11:29
but can you imagine anything going to war painted like that!???

To be fair, they're hardly the only ones guilty of that...

Godzooky
09-07-2010, 11:41
Lets not forget that UM chief librarian is half Eldar. Filthy!

But yeah, all that RT fluff is still considered canon. Live with it :p

Half-Eldar in the what now???

Which half?

Mart007
09-07-2010, 12:20
To be fair, they're hardly the only ones guilty of that...

True, but UM were in White Dwarf every second issue! So we saw them a lot more...


EDIT


Actually, RT paint jobs were better than 2nd

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/5/52/UltramarinesRT.jpg/180px-UltramarinesRT.jpg

They were pretty cool for the time....

Red_Dog
09-07-2010, 12:47
I don't hate them, I just make fun of people who use them :p

Metaphorazine
09-07-2010, 12:59
From my perspective as a non-marine player who isn't deeply into the fluff, it's cause everything I ever read about the UM's have them as the ultimate in perfection. They are the best at everything. And because of this, they never accomplish anything.

Sure, they win lots of battles against heroic odds. Of course they do! They're the best! They are absolutely incapable of losing, just as I'm incapable of flying off into space. Yet I don't sit around being impressed by gravity all the time...

I think what I'm trying to say is that they're too one-dimensional, they show up and win, because that's what they do.

Corax
09-07-2010, 13:08
they show up and win, because that's what they do.

One day they'll win without showing up, just to surprise you. ;)

In fact, I'll bet Mat Ward is working on it as we speak...

mecha15
17-07-2010, 13:00
I think people don't like the kind of Ultramarine propaganda in a sense of the word like
"Every Spacemarine aspires to be an Ultramarine" or " The greatest of the chapters was the ultramarines" which i have heard constantly since i have started playing 40K

The Marshel
17-07-2010, 13:20
one thing that annoys me about ultramarines is the whole teachings of guliman thing in the codex.

now, we all know guliman is suppose to be a tactical genius, great guy blah blah blah and u can respect him for that, dislike him for his annoying and bland perfection, but respect never the less. this works well when we are simply told he is brilliant and its left at that. unfortunately, it wasn't left at that.

Flick trough the forces of the space marines portion of the codex and you wil find a number of text boxes with the "teachings" of guliman.

an extract from the "teachings" for tacticals. "he will bring his foe to the battle in a manner and time of his choosing, never himself caught unready or ill-prepared for the task at hand. In defense he shall be stalwart as the mountain, a bulwark stood firm against the enemies of man. In attack he shall strike with the wrath of the immortal emperor, feeling his foe without mercy, remorse or fear"

i can't help but think wtf is this crap. this isn't brilliant, this is cryptic junk. similar rambling can be found for assault marines, devastators, bikes, servitors (about technology though, not the servitors themselves) and predators. Its all the same cryptic pointless junk that would be made infinity more useful by adding something like "remember to aviod wasting bullets on targets in cover" or "assault marines should always remember that they are not immortal, and when necessary, hang back while supporting squads weaken their foes to ensure victory". ya know something tactical.

so, now any respect i might have had for gulimen thanks to the fact that he was tactically brilliant is long gone leaving only my ill will towards his other traits, plus we know know the codex astartes that divided the legions and imo weakened the space marines was written by a man who's idea of tactical advice is something along the lines of and they shall be as unshakable as a rock rather then how they would go about being as unshakable as a rock

Corax
17-07-2010, 14:08
Those text blocks are taken from the Apocrypha of Skaros, not the Codex itself.

As for why Guilliman comes across sounding like a bit of a prat? Because "his" words have been written by a bunch of sci-fi nerds in England, not a supreme tactical genius. Its very easy to say, "Guilliman wrote a treatise of unparalleled tactical brilliance", but its another thing entirely to actually try to write a sample of the content; which is why they shoudn't try. The exact words of the Codex should never be shown, lest people like us dissect it to the Nth degree.

Also consider:


...the Codex Astartes of the 41st millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.

Not every military thinker that contributes to the Codex is guaranteed to have Guilliman's way with words.

The Marshel
17-07-2010, 14:29
yes, i am aware those are writings from the apocrypha of skaros. i didn't say they were from the codex, though re readinf my post it my be unintentional implied.

I wasn't aware of that about the codex astartes and it diffidently eases my mine

the point is though that it shouldn't have been put in the codex in the first place. they culd have simply left it out and i could still happily think guilliman as a tactical genius. instead matt ward insist on writing the junk and contributing to his overall massacre of the ultramarine fluff.

Wolf Lord Balrog
17-07-2010, 14:36
Flick trough the forces of the space marines portion of the codex and you wil find a number of text boxes with the "teachings" of guliman.

an extract from the "teachings" for tacticals. "he will bring his foe to the battle in a manner and time of his choosing, never himself caught unready or ill-prepared for the task at hand. In defense he shall be stalwart as the mountain, a bulwark stood firm against the enemies of man. In attack he shall strike with the wrath of the immortal emperor, feeling his foe without mercy, remorse or fear"

i can't help but think wtf is this crap. this isn't brilliant, this is cryptic junk.


Those text blocks are taken from the Apocrypha of Skaros, not the Codex itself.

As for why Guilliman comes across sounding like a bit of a prat? Because "his" words have been written by a bunch of sci-fi nerds in England, not a supreme tactical genius. Its very easy to say, "Guilliman wrote a treatise of unparalleled tactical brilliance", but its another thing entirely to actually try to write a sample of the content; which is why they shoudn't try. The exact words of the Codex should never be shown, lest people like us dissect it to the Nth degree.

Actually, to defend Guilliman a bit (which its hard to believe I'm doing), a tactical/strategic genius easily could have written something like that. Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' is full of similarly cryptic passages. The reason they sound cryptic is because they are literally a code, a text with a compacted meaning. Each word in the phrase means something specific, and a scholar of the work would know the 'unpacked' meaning.

Consider the following passage from 'Art of War':
"Those who excel at defense bury themselves away below the lowest depths of earth. Those who excel at offense move from above the greatest heights of heaven. Thus they are able to preserve themselves and attain complete victory."

On the surface, this is a :wtf: passage. But it has a specific meaning that scholars of ancient Chinese military writings would know, it would make perfect sense to them, and it is in fact an early formulation of what is now fundamental strategic doctrine.

Just sayin' :)

Malice313
17-07-2010, 15:12
Its not a unique phenomena. Most sporting leagues have a widely hated team. The Melbourne Storm was widely hated even before it was so well justified.:eyebrows:

Lord_Crull
17-07-2010, 15:36
yes, i am aware those are writings from the apocrypha of skaros. i didn't say they were from the codex, though re readinf my post it my be unintentional implied.

I wasn't aware of that about the codex astartes and it diffidently eases my mine

the point is though that it shouldn't have been put in the codex in the first place. they culd have simply left it out and i could still happily think guilliman as a tactical genius. instead matt ward insist on writing the junk and contributing to his overall massacre of the ultramarine fluff.

Not really, those seemed to me more like proverbs or headings. The codex is meant to have hundreds of pages dedicated to each and every type of engagement.

DeadlySquirrel
17-07-2010, 15:50
they have instead focused on falcon punching Avatars and writing nonsense like ''many chapters aspire to be Ultramarines''..


Beating down an avatar... REALLY? Calgar, no. Just no. You did not do that, no. I call conspiracy on this one :shifty:

THAT is why i hate ultra marines, theyre just TOO perfect.

Lord_Crull
17-07-2010, 16:15
Beating down an avatar... REALLY? Calgar, no. Just no. You did not do that, no. I call conspiracy on this one :shifty:


As opposed to Mephiston in general?

Wolf Lord Balrog
17-07-2010, 16:54
As opposed to Mephiston in general?

Well, I don't think you'll find anybody outside the hardest-core BA fanboy defending Mephiston's fluff. But you can't defend one bad fluff piece by citing another one.

Lord_Crull
17-07-2010, 16:58
Well, I don't think you'll find anybody outside the hardest-core BA fanboy defending Mephiston's fluff. But you can't defend one bad fluff piece by citing another one.

Actually I was pointout out the tendancy for people to focus on that part of fluff when characters of other chapters have done OTT things as well.

Farseer Dave
17-07-2010, 17:14
Well, I don't think you'll find anybody outside the hardest-core BA fanboy defending Mephiston's fluff. But you can't defend one bad fluff piece by citing another one.

Ill Happily defend Mephiston! / raises Boltgun.

I see nothing wrong with his Lore , He survived a Horrific Experience and conquered his inner deamon , He was powerful before he free'd himself from the black rage and now that he has defeated that he has returned a changed man..

Im one of the most vocal Matt Ward haters on this Forum and I dont rate mephiston amongst his (many) failures quite the contrary in fact..

Mephiston is imo a really well crafted character we know from the lore that he shuns company of his old comrades and is very aloof and mysterious a total change from cheerful Calistarius , we know that theres a shadow of doubt in him about how he overcame the black rage , he has inner conflict and a feel of incoming Tragedy about him. He fights at the forefront of conflict against impossible odds to perhaps prove his devotion and loyalty!
I think (lore wise) Mephiston is one of the best crafted characters in the 40k universe!

Farseer Dave.

Xyrex
17-07-2010, 17:30
"Though shall have superpowers and fly with blue suits of indestructability and plot armor through the universe, killing anything that stands in your way by the magics of ward."

-codex astartes.

I think it's the horrible fluff. (And the fact their armor is blue :D)

Malice313
17-07-2010, 17:47
I see nothing wrong with his Lore , He survived a Horrific Experience and conquered his inner deamon

"Contact with daemons is heresy."

"The heretic is justly abhorred."

-40k

metal bawks
17-07-2010, 18:16
I still don't get why people are so upset about Calgar beating an Avatar with the help of a Devastator squad and some Terminators. And being severely wounded in the process.

Xyrex
17-07-2010, 18:20
Its not just that... its that this sort of thing happens in every single battle. The ultra marines always win, while pretending to be wounded. Them being "dead" is just when they got bored of their plot armor shrugging off tank shots and decided to take a nap.

Vaktathi
17-07-2010, 20:06
Ill Happily defend Mephiston! / raises Boltgun.

I see nothing wrong with his Lore , He survived a Horrific Experience and conquered his inner deamon , He was powerful before he free'd himself from the black rage and now that he has defeated that he has returned a changed man..

Im one of the most vocal Matt Ward haters on this Forum and I dont rate mephiston amongst his (many) failures quite the contrary in fact..

Mephiston is imo a really well crafted character we know from the lore that he shuns company of his old comrades and is very aloof and mysterious a total change from cheerful Calistarius , we know that theres a shadow of doubt in him about how he overcame the black rage , he has inner conflict and a feel of incoming Tragedy about him. He fights at the forefront of conflict against impossible odds to perhaps prove his devotion and loyalty!
I think (lore wise) Mephiston is one of the best crafted characters in the 40k universe!

Farseer Dave.
In terms of his story, I might agree, although how its written is a bit annoying.

That said, in terms of stats and how his fluff plays out on the tabletop, they basically also copy/pasted his 2E stats (which weren't too different from most other characters *then*), which is an entirely different matter. Conquering the Red Thirst shouldn't put your physical capabilities on par with Hive Tyrants and Greater Daemons.

Farseer Dave
17-07-2010, 20:19
In terms of his story, I might agree, although how its written is a bit annoying.

That said, in terms of stats and how his fluff plays out on the tabletop, they basically also copy/pasted his 2E stats (which weren't too different from most other characters *then*), which is an entirely different matter. Conquering the Red Thirst shouldn't put your physical capabilities on par with Hive Tyrants and Greater Daemons.

Its written perfectly fine? whats wrong with the way its written?

He cast out the Black Rage , the only blood Angel in the history of the chapter to do this !!
He was always powerful but the sheer depths he had to draw from to Conquer the black rage has fully unleashed his potential , I think its perfectly fine he can stand toe to toe with hive tyrants considering his newfound powers..

After all there are such things as Majorly powerful Psychers already present in the lore , there called Alpha level psychers , the guys who can tear apart titans with their powers..
Mephiston takes apart a carnifex and evrybody screams cheese ,

His stats make him unique and to me perfectly reflect the lord of death,

food for thought,
Farseer Dave.

Dead7
17-07-2010, 20:30
try compairing his stats to say, the necron gods or eldar warriors who have been fighting for millenia, you would think he would be a wee bit less godlike in compairison.

Vaktathi
17-07-2010, 20:31
eh, to me personally it's a little overdone in how it reads, a little too biblical/fanfic-ish like much of the SM stuff. The story itself is kinda cool, just how its written.

That said, even mighty Daemon Princes of Chaos born from warlords of the founding Legions, infused with the powers of the Warp and granted immortal Daemonhood and the favor of the Dark Gods from ten thousand years of war, on top of their already genetically enhanced bodies, don't quite have those stats. It's hard to see how conquering the red thirst is going to unleash even further enhancements to the Geneseed the Emperor created and take it to *that* extent, especially without any significant noticeable physical changes. A Chaos Lord becomes *HUGE* when he ascends to Daemon Prince status and his stats get upgraded, Mephiston somehow didn't really change much.

Badger[Fr]
17-07-2010, 20:40
Its not just that... its that this sort of thing happens in every single battle. The ultra marines always win, while pretending to be wounded. Them being "dead" is just when they got bored of their plot armor shrugging off tank shots and decided to take a nap.
How are BA or SW any different, exactly?

I loathe Matt Ward's inane ramblings, but the Ultramarine fluff isn't intrinsequely worse than the other chapters background. They may be bland, but that's the reason I love them in the first place: I want a flexible and tactically sound army. I enjoy both Cadians and Ultramarines for their combined arms approach to warfare.

Farseer Dave
17-07-2010, 20:40
eh, to me personally it's a little overdone in how it reads, a little too biblical/fanfic-ish like much of the SM stuff. The story itself is kinda cool, just how its written.

That said, even mighty Daemon Princes of Chaos born from warlords of the founding Legions, infused with the powers of the Warp and granted immortal Daemonhood and the favor of the Dark Gods from ten thousand years of war, on top of their already genetically enhanced bodies, don't quite have those stats. It's hard to see how conquering the red thirst is going to unleash even further enhancements to the Geneseed the Emperor created and take it to *that* extent, especially without any significant noticeable physical changes. A Chaos Lord becomes *HUGE* when he ascends to Daemon Prince status and his stats get upgraded, Mephiston somehow didn't really change much.

First fair enough to each their own , I rather enjoy that style of writing myself! :)

I like to think that his enhanced characteristics are more due to his incresed psychic powers than any physical changes , he has through pure will power simply overcome more than any blood angel before him and through his mastery unlocked Far more power than is normally possible.

he over came the ''black rage'' the red thirst is completly different m8 , it didnt give him any genseed enhancements it enhanced him mentally, he showed umparralled mental fortitude to overcome the black rage and now that he has such a mastery he can draw far more from the warp without risking loss of control/possesion.

Farseer Dave.

Apasas
17-07-2010, 20:53
I like the Ultamarines.

OoieGooie
18-07-2010, 02:20
So much hate here...

So much hate.

Don't forget, if you dont follow the little blue book, no matter if you win a battle or your a hero of your chapter, you will be put to death under "the most heinous of crimes"... *Sigh*

I hate the blue book.

Lord_Crull
18-07-2010, 04:23
So much hate here...

So much hate.

Don't forget, if you dont follow the little blue book, no matter if you win a battle or your a hero of your chapter, you will be put to death under "the most heinous of crimes"... *Sigh*

I hate the blue book.

Really? I must have missed the Salamanders, the White Scars, the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Black Templars...............

All of whom are famous chapters and none are 100% codex adherant. The Wolves and Templars don't even follow it. And I don't see the Ultramarines prosecuting them. The closest that it comes to was with Dorn and that was really more over size limits than following the Codex.

Wolf Lord Balrog
18-07-2010, 05:03
Really? I must have missed the Salamanders, the White Scars, the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Black Templars...............

All of whom are famous chapters and none are 100% codex adherant. The Wolves and Templars don't even follow it. And I don't see the Ultramarines prosecuting them. The closest that it comes to was with Dorn and that was really more over size limits than following the Codex.

Well, if size is an issue... :D

The Black Templars are several times the size of a normal chapter, the Grey Knights have 3x the marine-power of a normal chapter, and the Space Wolves are 20-40% bigger than a Codex Chapter at any given time. And the Inquisition has never bothered the first two (though that could just be rank hypocrisy, since the BTs cooperate with Inquisitors, and the GKs work for them. :) )

Xyrex
18-07-2010, 05:15
;4831397']How are BA or SW any different, exactly?

I loathe Matt Ward's inane ramblings, but the Ultramarine fluff isn't intrinsequely worse than the other chapters background. They may be bland, but that's the reason I love them in the first place: I want a flexible and tactically sound army. I enjoy both Cadians and Ultramarines for their combined arms approach to warfare.

They have their own fluff problems. But they don't just go knockin' avatar eads off. But as is, blood angels are vampires, SW are ware wolfs in space, and dark angels are emo. Salamanders are some radio active weirdos. I think the only chapter i don't have anything against really are the black templars (and i don't even play them). I think the biggest problem in GW is that the old hobbyists are leaving and being replaced by Ward duplicates. ITS A CONSPIRACY, MAN!

(looks at DA on shelf "and my DA weren't always emo people in green suits")

Lord_Crull
18-07-2010, 14:06
Well, if size is an issue... :D

The Black Templars are several times the size of a normal chapter, the Grey Knights have 3x the marine-power of a normal chapter, and the Space Wolves are 20-40% bigger than a Codex Chapter at any given time. And the Inquisition has never bothered the first two (though that could just be rank hypocrisy, since the BTs cooperate with Inquisitors, and the GKs work for them. :) )

The Black Templars are scattered all over the galaxy, (it's hard to keep track of their numbers) most people don't even know the Grey Knights exist (Plus they are also are scattered all over the galaxy). And the Space Wolves are the Space Wolves.

Dark Aly
18-07-2010, 15:31
I hate Ultramarines because they're blue.

They claim to be strategic geniuses, but they paint their armor bright blue.

Bright blue.

Naturally the same concept applies to many of the Chapters, but some could actually pass for an attempt to blend with the terrain. (Raven Guard/Black Templar, White Scars, Salamanders, Imperial fists (desert yellowish?), etc.).


Unless they're fighting underwater, bright blue is dumb.



Sooo, I just don't like the way they look. :angel:

"camoflage is the colour of fear"-rouge (read:rogue) trader or compendium (can't remember which)

i find any well known chapters boring be they ultramarines, space wolves, blood angels, whatevers or thingys. always make my own chapter/army or whatever. that way i get to ignore the stories i don't like and adapt/amalgamate the stories i do.

the real reason i think folks don't like the ultras is that they are the most common in terms od what we see. not on the battle field perhaps but certainly in the fluff and the minatures pages etc and this gets boring. variety is the spice of life after all.

(the only GW chapter, craftworld, tribe etc that i use is ravenwing-they do look cool in black with big black bikes)

Tapok
18-07-2010, 15:33
People don't like the Ultramarines because SPIRITUAL LIEGE

/thread

Askari
18-07-2010, 15:58
I don't like the Ultramarines because sadly I have never seen a well-made Ultramarine army on the table, and never met an Ultramarine player that was any fun to play against.

Sorry chaps.

Wolf Lord Balrog
18-07-2010, 17:07
I don't like the Ultramarines because sadly I have never seen a well-made Ultramarine army on the table, and never met an Ultramarine player that was any fun to play against.

Sorry chaps.

I wouldn't go that far. Actually, half of the Ultramarines players I've met have been very cool guys. Its just that the other half are ********** of a special magnitude. And their fluff has always been bad. :) Boring before, over the top now.

Zweischneid
18-07-2010, 17:23
try compairing his stats to say, the necron gods or eldar warriors who have been fighting for millenia, you would think he would be a wee bit less godlike in compairison.

Why? It's heroic (space-)fantasy. Here, men kill gods all the time.

And as noted before, eldar warriors are hamstrung precisely by their millenia on the battlefield. They are prisoners of crusted routines and rituals.

Eldar are the aging boxer in a cage full of young, glory-hungry mixed-martial artists. They get their light punched out precisely because they've been at it far to long and lost the ability to adapt and think outside the box.

Time does not equal combat prowess.

Dead7
18-07-2010, 17:25
First fair enough to each their own , I rather enjoy that style of writing myself! :)

I like to think that his enhanced characteristics are more due to his incresed psychic powers than any physical changes , he has through pure will power simply overcome more than any blood angel before him and through his mastery unlocked Far more power than is normally possible.

he over came the ''black rage'' the red thirst is completly different m8 , it didnt give him any genseed enhancements it enhanced him mentally, he showed umparralled mental fortitude to overcome the black rage and now that he has such a mastery he can draw far more from the warp without risking loss of control/possesion.

Farseer Dave.

the whole thing seems a litttle too much like something you would see in naruto than i like having in my warhammer lolz. if mephie gets those stats i want my phoenix lords to have all 10s :p

Craftworld
18-07-2010, 18:19
eh, to me personally it's a little overdone in how it reads, a little too biblical/fanfic-ish like much of the SM stuff. The story itself is kinda cool, just how its written.

This entire hobby is over-the-top; and just because the lore doesn't sit well with you, doesn't mean others don't like it. That's no valid argument against his fluff, "I don't like it..".


That said, even mighty Daemon Princes of Chaos born from warlords of the founding Legions, infused with the powers of the Warp and granted immortal Daemonhood and the favor of the Dark Gods from ten thousand years of war, on top of their already genetically enhanced bodies, don't quite have those stats. It's hard to see how conquering the red thirst is going to unleash even further enhancements to the Geneseed the Emperor created and take it to *that* extent, especially without any significant noticeable physical changes. A Chaos Lord becomes *HUGE* when he ascends to Daemon Prince status and his stats get upgraded, Mephiston somehow didn't really change much.

A Daemon Princes is a dime a dozen though, many have ascended.

Mephiston is a lone figure in that he has beaten the Black Rage as an alpha-level-psyker, and as a Marine at that. He is already superior to mortals, and then he is amped up via the curse.

The way it was described, is that the Black Rage grants the gene-son of Sanguinius a "small amount of his power", so I don't see why it's so incredible that Mephiston would be incredibly powerful, when Sanguinius cracked the most favored of Khorne's servants over his knee like a WWF wrestler.

I don't see it as being quite the stretch people make it out to be.

Gutted
18-07-2010, 22:01
the whole thing seems a litttle too much like something you would see in naruto than i like having in my warhammer lolz. if mephie gets those stats i want my phoenix lords to have all 10s :p

Welcome to fith the edition that brings crazy UM fluff, Space Wolves riding giant mutant cyborg wolves and blood angels weilding blood claws. 5th is not an edition that is going to bring refine the concepts or tone things down.

Wolf Lord Balrog
18-07-2010, 22:12
5th is not an edition that is going to bring refine the concepts or tone things down.

Except for Slaaneshi nipples. :D

Craftworld
18-07-2010, 22:16
Except for Slaaneshi nipples. :D

It's funny how that works, isn't it?

A child can buy a Black Library novel and read about a Space Marine crushing an aliens face with only his bare hands and then setting his corpse on fire; but the idea of a child seeing breasts on a miniature is unacceptable to parents.

Brutality goooood.
Nudity baaaaad.

Kozbot
19-07-2010, 05:38
This entire hobby is over-the-top; and just because the lore doesn't sit well with you, doesn't mean others don't like it. That's no valid argument against his fluff, "I don't like it..".


But when you're answering the question of the thread, which is why people hate Ultramarines that is a perfectly good reason. I am one of the people that like the Ultramarines but it's perfectly valid for someone to say that it doesn't sit well with them and so they don't like the army.



A Daemon Princes is a dime a dozen though, many have ascended.

Mephiston is a lone figure in that he has beaten the Black Rage as an alpha-level-psyker, and as a Marine at that. He is already superior to mortals, and then he is amped up via the curse.

The way it was described, is that the Black Rage grants the gene-son of Sanguinius a "small amount of his power", so I don't see why it's so incredible that Mephiston would be incredibly powerful, when Sanguinius cracked the most favored of Khorne's servants over his knee like a WWF wrestler.

I don't see it as being quite the stretch people make it out to be.

I find it stupidly absurd, which gets back to people having opinions and expressing them on a forum. But what I really wonder about Mephiston, is would people be complaining if he'd taken out an Avatar? With his stats and the blood angels psychic powers, he could do so easily. But then Calgar rules wise stands a decent chance versus an Avatar and that is one of the most common complaints I hear about the Ultras.

Zweischneid
19-07-2010, 09:13
I find it stupidly absurd, which gets back to people having opinions and expressing them on a forum. But what I really wonder about Mephiston, is would people be complaining if he'd taken out an Avatar? With his stats and the blood angels psychic powers, he could do so easily. But then Calgar rules wise stands a decent chance versus an Avatar and that is one of the most common complaints I hear about the Ultras.

Well, I think what sets Mephiston apart is that his up there as a decent 250 pts death star HQ and brings you the psychic defense of a hood to the table as well. Especially in smaller point games, notably tournaments, that brings you flexibility that Calgar or an Avatar do not; i.e. facing Eldrad, Jaws-spam or lots of Zoes? Play Mephiston "conservatively" and shut down enemy psy. Facing a list low on psych, use Mephiston more "aggressively" and do some damage.

Arguably, Mephiston loses some of his edge beyond 2000 pts as most armies can bring both Psy (offensive and defensive) and some nasty stat-lines to the table. But try building a 1500 tourney list with both a hood & and a credible MC-statline-threat and you'll quickly come around to see Mephistons value. He should, in many ways, not be regarded as an equivalent of Calgar, but as an equivalent to Calgar + a Librarian.

In my humble opinion, GW priced Mephiston more or less correctly as a monstreous close-combat threat but forgot to accuratly price in the psychic hood he got for primarly being a Librarian in fluff I suppose.

jsullivanlaw
21-07-2010, 20:01
I dunno, i really haven't run into all that much ultramarine hate. Maybe it is because of their new slogan.

Ultramarines: Hey! At least we don't ride wolves.

madprophet
21-07-2010, 23:08
I don't hate Ultramarines as such - I am not that big a fan of Speehs Muurheens.

The Ultras are just too perfect. They are always honorable, they run an efficient and well-managed empire, they always take their vitamins, say their prayers and brush their teeth twice a day...

Anyway, while the Ultras are not my cup of tea I don't think they are that bad just a little too much for my taste - but then I prefer the Imperial Guard as my primary army.

Revamp
21-07-2010, 23:43
So all the military drill instructors and generals at West Point are idiots?

Yes.


Or for that matter a superhuman military genius with centuries of combat experiance plus wisdom from hunderds of other warriors (Including other Primarchs) are all idiots?


Wow, this is easy! Yes.

TheMav80
22-07-2010, 03:11
I hate all Space Marines equally.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

mstersmith
22-07-2010, 04:50
I hate all Space Marines equally.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Exactly. All of them make me want to puke in my mouth.

RunepriestRidcully
22-07-2010, 06:29
It's funny how that works, isn't it?

A child can buy a Black Library novel and read about a Space Marine crushing an aliens face with only his bare hands and then setting his corpse on fire; but the idea of a child seeing breasts on a miniature is unacceptable to parents.

Brutality goooood.
Nudity baaaaad.

That is odd, even more so when GW seems more then happy to make models of barechested, muscley men, I guess it is one of those odd quirks of society

Drasanil
22-07-2010, 13:37
That is odd, even more so when GW seems more then happy to make models of barechested, muscley men, I guess it is one of those odd quirks of society

OMG! Games-Workshop is trying to make Little Timmies everywhere teh gay:D







...joking of course...

Max Jet
22-07-2010, 13:59
OMG! Games-Workshop is trying to make Little Timmies everywhere teh gay

GOSH it worked on me Oo !!

As a side note. Of course people are more open concerning violence then they are towards nudity and sexuality.
Imagine your son getting bruised up pretty badly. So what? He learned an important lesson that day, 2 weeks later it will be healed up. It's not like he is going to crush someone with a powerfist unless you have done something REAALLY wrong in his education.

But now imaging him, coming home with his 16 year old girlfriend. "Dad, we have a problem.. she is pregnant." Now you know what real trouble is.

Still there's this things, the average wargammer is as unattractive as a boy can be, so I don't see this as much of a problem XD


Anyway back to the topic. On DakkaDakka there was a post, defending the Ultramarines, someone tried to defend their background, by reciting their noble and heroic history, their work on the Codex Astartes and their flawless obedience (including their role in the Tyrannic wars)
Now could someone please explain me, what people might find interesting in that? I didn't get it. Seems pretty boring to me, if you disagree, than please explain it to me. What is so interesting about that?

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 14:44
I'm not quite sure If you are serious here.


Yes.


Really.:rolleyes:



Wow, this is easy! Yes.

Given the amount of worlds that Guilliman conquered I think it's safe to say you are wrong.:D



Anyway back to the topic. On DakkaDakka there was a post, defending the Ultramarines, someone tried to defend their background, by reciting their noble and heroic history, their work on the Codex Astartes and their flawless obedience (including their role in the Tyrannic wars)
Now could someone please explain me, what people might find interesting in that? I didn't get it. Seems pretty boring to me, if you disagree, than please explain it to me. What is so interesting about that?

How is that not interesting? You have Romans and Spartans in one package. You get the First Tyranid War and best of all it's all on pure drill and tactics, not mutations or grimdark curses. Seems pretty awesome to me.

Elenneth89
22-07-2010, 14:49
as space wolves player, I really hate ultramarines! they are everywhere!! photos, videos, console games and also films! in addition, half of the marine players use this smurfs-look alike army, and this is very annoying in therms of variety of colours...

barrangas
22-07-2010, 15:04
It's funny how that works, isn't it?

A child can buy a Black Library novel and read about a Space Marine crushing an aliens face with only his bare hands and then setting his corpse on fire; but the idea of a child seeing breasts on a miniature is unacceptable to parents.

Brutality goooood.
Nudity baaaaad.

Your kid goes out and gets pregnant or gets some one else pregnant, and you've got some other brat to deal with now. Now if they go out and kill some one, you don't have to deal with them again. Makes perfect sense :evilgrin:

Societies are weird, what can you say.

Fixer
22-07-2010, 15:08
Ultramarines can be great for helping write your own homebrew chapter background with.

It's a first founding chapter that yours can have a grudge against with the flimsiest of reasons and yet still everyone can agree with.

My Lion Guard are a freshly founded chapter hunting for glory, no ancient relic weapons (such as Terminators, Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders) to rely on they set out to recover these weapons from ancient battlegrounds now under alien/heretic control and at great cost.

Currently the Ultramarines demanded all the relics and weapons originally from their Chapter back.
Cue much ranting and fist shaking about the bloody Ultramarines :)

x-esiv-4c
22-07-2010, 15:10
Having a half-eldar chief librarian seems a little contradictory to the codex they so obsessively follow.

barrangas
22-07-2010, 15:20
How is that not interesting? You have Romans and Spartans in one package. You get the First Tyranid War and best of all it's all on pure drill and tactics, not mutations or grimdark curses. Seems pretty awesome to me.

The Romans and Spartans don't always come out smelling like roses though. Think of it like Superman. Some people like him because he's 99% the ideal super hero. He always does the right thing and always wins. There are a lot of people who get really tired of that. The only time I could ever stomach him is when he's used to show the ridgid contrast between him and more flexible heroes. The only time I've actually liked him was when he'd finally had enough, and lost his @#$%. To me, the "man" is more interesting then the "Super". I can also deal with him when he's actually out smarting something rather then punching it.

Darker aspects show depth. If there was a little of that in the Ultramarines, I could deal with them more. Nothing major, but detail a few engagements with other Imperial forces done out of pride or anger.

Of course this comes from some one who largely identifies with the Alpha Legion, so take it how you will.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 17:06
My Lion Guard are a freshly founded chapter hunting for glory, no ancient relic weapons (such as Terminators, Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders) to rely on they set out to recover these weapons from ancient battlegrounds now under alien/heretic control and at great cost.

Currently the Ultramarines demanded all the relics and weapons originally from their Chapter back.
Cue much ranting and fist shaking about the bloody Ultramarines :)

So basicly your chapter are thieves?


Having a half-eldar chief librarian seems a little contradictory to the codex they so obsessively follow.

That fluff was retconned years ago. I don't think the codex even existed in it's present form at the time.


The Romans and Spartans don't always come out smelling like roses though.

Nethier do all real world cultures.


Think of it like Superman. Some people like him because he's 99% the ideal super hero. He always does the right thing and always wins.

Have you ever read All-Star Superman? The recent story arc with the planet of Kryptonians? Kingdom Come?


Nothing major, but detail a few engagements with other Imperial forces done out of pride or anger.


Why would they do that? They are the sensible ones remember?

Or maybe I simply prefer the chapter that puts aside it's differences and actually get's the job done.



Darker aspects show depth.

No they don't. All it takes is imagination and character devleopment. All-Star Superman actually got better reviews than All-Star Batman because of that.:D

Max Jet
22-07-2010, 17:38
How is that not interesting? You have Romans and Spartans in one package. You get the First Tyranid War and best of all it's all on pure drill and tactics, not mutations or grimdark curses. Seems pretty awesome to me.

What makes the Romans as a motive so interesting is their level of Corruptness from their higher generals up to the very SPQR itself, their shady motivations and methods both towards the tribes they are fighting as well as their very own people. Of course Rome itself represents the light of civilisation, but is it really that better to serve as a slave in heaven, rather than be the king of hell?
This level of shadiness doesn't come up in the description of Ultramar, no words of wood built slums, hordes of slaves at the end of the hierarchy or edge of their territory constantly at hunger or being torn apart by invading hordes of vandals. Now you have exactly that on the whole scale of the Imperium, the realm of the Ultramarines however is a perfect paradise, thus an unbelievable and sadly boring part of the fiction. There is no struggle, no higher motive, nothing thrilling except for their will to serve.

And to be honest. I always found spartans pretty boring, but really.. did you ever read an official story of Ultramarines, throwing babies into a large pit? Well the Spartans did, but I guess the Ultramarines are to noble for dirty work like that.

x-esiv-4c
22-07-2010, 17:41
Crull, if it's in print then it's canon. You know this :)

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 17:42
Crull, if it's in print then it's canon. You know this :)

Not when contridicted repeatedly by everything from Second Edition onward.


What makes the Romans as a motive so interesting is their level of Corruptness from their higher generals up to the very SPQR itself, their shady motivations and methods both towards the tribes they are fighting as well as their very own people. Of course Rome itself represents the light of civilisation, but is it really that better to serve as a slave in heaven, rather than be the king of hell?
.

Funny. I was always interested in the discipline and outfits of the Roman Legions.


no words of wood built slums,.

It's the 41st millenium. Save for some fuedal and death worlds most builds are steel or concrete.


hordes of slaves at the end of the hierarchy .

They are called servitors. Every planet in the Imperium has some at the least.



edge of their territory constantly at hunger or being torn apart by invading hordes of vandals. .

Are you sure this is the same 40k we are talking about? You know, the one with the Imperium constantly threatened by aliens and traitors form within and without? In fact Ultramar just got invaded by M'kar's forces.


Now you have exactly that on the whole scale of the Imperium, the realm of the Ultramarines however is a perfect paradise, thus an unbelievable and sadly boring part of the fiction.

Actually no. Compared to most planets in the Imperium they are a paradise, however by modern day standards Ultramar is an opressive militaristic state.


There is no struggle, no higher motive, nothing thrilling except for their will to serve.


Or you know, survive, like everyone else?



And to be honest. I always found spartans pretty boring, but really.. did you ever read an official story of Ultramarines, throwing babies into a large pit? Well the Spartans did, but I guess the Ultramarines are to noble for dirty work like that.

Actually yes. IA Ultramarines.


Life on Macragge was harsh and only the strongest survived to adulthood. The state determined whether children, both male and female, were strong when they were born and weakling infants were left on the mountains to perish.

Just like the Spartans.;)

x-esiv-4c
22-07-2010, 17:58
I didn't see Jervis stating that in his explanation about "official fluff", Crull.

It's still canon

Sorry :D

Drasanil
22-07-2010, 17:59
Space Marines = Elves + Appropriate amount of manliness in order to earn the homophobe's seal of approval.

Ultramarines = Elves except better + Appropriate amount of manliness in order to earn the homophobe's seal of approval.


WFB did a fairly good job of balancing the Dwarf Vs. Elf Vs. Human angles each has their definning strengths and weaknesses and they're all about evenly balanced on the whole.

Unfortunately 40k doesn't seem to able to accomplish this with Space Marines who are in essence supposed to be The Mario (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMario) but often end up being Mary Sues (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue). The problem then gets exacerbated when you add Ultramarines to the mix, who just happen to be the guys that make even normal Marines look reasonnable.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 17:59
I didn't see Jervis stating that in his explanation about "official fluff", Crull.


Where did he? I'm pretty sure Alan Merret said that fluff changes all the time.

Sorry dude.:D

Leo
22-07-2010, 18:00
Really.:rolleyes:




Yeah, military sciencists all over the world are idiots. It's a well known fact that's especially evident to fat little kiddies who live in their mommies basement.

That being said I don't really know what all this Ultramarine bashing is about.
People who think this is because of Matt Ward are kidding themselves as this behaviour dates back to the beginnings of the old GW forums (which is only when I joined, so it could be even older).
Besides, all the other armies have that kind of hyperbole in their background, but only with Ultramarines does it become a problem.
Even in this thread people bitch about Calgar defeating an Avatar which is apparently over the top and then mock Guilliman for being defeated by Fulgrim. So Ultramarines get to be way over the top and laughably flimsy at the same time. Go figure.
All through third edition UMs where mocked for being bland because of their lack of special rules and units. The very minute they get said rules and units this of course becomes a bad thing, too because they aren't supposed to.


Space Wolves players and Dark Angel players complain about Ultramarines not having any defeats in their stories. Someone tell me the instances where SW or DA or any other big chapter have any meaningful setbacks that can compare to the losses during the battle of Macragge.

Imperial Tank commanders detonate Phantom Titans, Blood Angel heroes facing down Bloodthirsters, Orc Warbikers destroy Warlord Titans, single Tyranid critters flatten entire Craftworlds.

All apparently A-OK.

But Calgar taking on a model that costs a hundred points less then he does with the help of several squads and still being severely wounded in the process is suddenly way too much .......... riiight.

(When I read that story, the Eldar player in me wondered, where the heck they got that Avatar from and how I could get one)

All of this makes me really like the Ultramarines of course. Overall I find them only mildly interesting as far as paint scheme, background or rules go.
But their ability to spawn a bunch of pathetic whining internet flametards out of thin air who will constantly bash them for the most stupid reasons is just astonishing.

No other army can do that and it's the reason that there is a very real chance that paint me some UMs should I ever start a marine army.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 18:02
Yeah, military sciencists all over the world are idiots. It's a well known fact that's especially evident to fat little kiddies who live in their mommies basement.

You do realize I was being sarcastic and not saying miltiary scientists were idiots? Right?

x-esiv-4c
22-07-2010, 18:03
I'm pretty sure I have the statement Jervis made regarding the validity of all fluff saved at home. Will post it later.

Having a half-eldar chief librarian is just burning you up isn't it? :D

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 18:05
I'm pretty sure I have the statement Jervis made regarding the validity of all fluff saved at home. Will post it later.


And I'm pretty sure Alan Merret is the go to guy on all that. You know, being the head of GW IP and all that.

But go ahead. I want to see what Jervis has to say.



Having a half-eldar chief librarian is just burning you up isn't it? :D

Actually no. Where did you get that idea?:confused:

Leo
22-07-2010, 18:09
You do realize I was being sarcastic and not saying miltiary scientists were idiots? Right?

yes actually, that comment was directed at the guy you responded to. Might have made that clearer.

x-esiv-4c
22-07-2010, 19:12
Crull, might want to check when he was active in the IP department and for how long :)

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 19:32
Crull, might want to check when he was active in the IP department and for how long :)

To my knowledge Alan Merret is the current head of IP and has been so for a while.

Max Jet
22-07-2010, 19:57
Funny. I was always interested in the discipline and outfits of the Roman Legions.


You might develop the same interest in the discipline and outfits on the other Marine chapters, they even have a more interesting and richer background. This does not invalidate your point, but emphasizes, that compared to other Marine Chapters, their background is rather flat.




It's the 41st millenium. Save for some fuedal and death worlds most builds are steel or concrete.


Now If you could provide me with a quotation about how hard and tiresome the life for a citizen of Macragge is, your point would have been accepted, till now I have read rather favourable quotes about the situation and life on Macragge, i.e. in the newest Space Marine Codex. You can't come closer to current canon than this.




They are called servitors. Every planet in the Imperium has some at the least.


You can correct me if I am wrong, but aren't only severe injured people and/or criminals being transformed into Servitors? On the height of slave trade, the population of slaves reached about 10% of the roman empire. Quite a lot isn't it?



Are you sure this is the same 40k we are talking about? You know, the one with the Imperium constantly threatened by aliens and traitors form within and without? In fact Ultramar just got invaded by M'kar's forces.


The IMPERIUM Yes, however Macragge? As far as I know, a simple garden wold has been stripped into a desert, and there has been a battle on the polar fortress. You can of course correct me and provide me with quotations on where a highly populated mostly civilian Settlement on Macragge has suffered by the attack.

M'kar's force also only occupied uninhabitated plantes in the Ultramar Segmentum. Everywhere else civilians would have died by the millions, looking at the typical GW fluff.




Actually no. Compared to most planets in the Imperium they are a paradise, however by modern day standards Ultramar is an opressive militaristic state.


Yes of course, but I always look at the Ultramarines in comparison to the rest of GW's fluff as it does make little sense comparing it to George Orwell.



Or you know, survive, like everyone else?


Like in every single piece of GW fluff, only thing is everyone else seems to struggle much more harder and succed on fewer occassions, having a lot more problems with treason and backstabing, loosing battles. There is no reason why all of these things wouldn't apply to the Ultramarines.. yet they don't which makes their fluff compared to the rest of the 40k universe (I emphasize COMPARED) boring and unbelievable.



Actually yes. IA Ultramarines.

Just like the Spartans.;)

This quotation indeed helps, yet I can't find it.
What number of Imperial Armour? What page?

fall3nang3l
22-07-2010, 20:07
Hi haven't been following this thread but the thing that really grinded my gears the other day was when I was watching the Ultramarines movie trailer.

"and the greatest of them all are the Ultramarines."

They're literally shoved down our throats.

MajorWesJanson
22-07-2010, 20:23
You can correct me if I am wrong, but aren't only severe injured people and/or criminals being transformed into Servitors? On the height of slave trade, the population of slaves reached about 10% of the roman empire. Quite a lot isn't it?


This quotation indeed helps, yet I can't find it.
What number of Imperial Armour? What page?

Responding to these two:
The mechanicus produces vat grown servitors, and there are smaller things like servo skulls, cherubs, and other similar constructs that serve similar purposes.

Index Astartes, not Imperial Armour.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 20:26
You might develop the same interest in the discipline and outfits on the other Marine chapters, ?

Doubtful. Ultramarines are the most interesting for me compared to the Dark Angels or Space Wolves.


This does not invalidate your point, but emphasizes, that compared to other Marine Chapters, their background is rather flat.


Your opinion.



Now If you could provide me with a quotation about how hard and tiresome the life for a citizen of Macragge is, your point would have been accepted, till now I have read rather favourable quotes about the situation and life on Macragge, i.e. in the newest Space Marine Codex. You can't come closer to current canon than this.


People use steel and concrete on many worlds in the Imperium.:wtf: Hive Worlds and Holy Terra amoung many. The rest of the Imperium does not solely consist of deathworlds or feral worlds. You can't seriously be suggesting that Macragge is the only world that uses steel and concrete in construction.



You can correct me if I am wrong, but aren't only severe injured people and/or criminals being transformed into Servitors?

And the Mechancius grows alot.


On the height of slave trade, the population of slaves reached about 10% of the roman empire. Quite a lot isn't it?


Yes, and your point?



The IMPERIUM Yes, however Macragge? As far as I know, a simple garden wold has been stripped into a desert, and there has been a battle on the polar fortress. You can of course correct me and provide me with quotations on where a highly populated mostly civilian Settlement on Macragge has suffered by the attack.


Just read Chapter's Due. Or Defenders of Ultramar. Both of those books are about invasions. The entire books.



M'kar's force also only occupied uninhabitated plantes in the Ultramar Segmentum. Everywhere else civilians would have died by the millions, looking at the typical GW fluff.

Actually M'kar's force inflicated massive deaths and property damage according to Chapter's Due. The entire planetary populations of Tarentus, Tallasar and Quintus were lost. You are talking about the battle in .878. I was referring to the most recent invasion in .999.



Like in every single piece of GW fluff, only thing is everyone else seems to struggle much more harder and succed on fewer occassions,.

Really? Going by the Space Wolf and Blood Angels codices I did not get that impression.


having a lot more problems with treason and backstabing,

I don't really see how many other chapters have a problem with that. Other Than the Dark Angels traitors among the First Founding Chapters are rare to nonexistant.


There is no reason why all of these things wouldn't apply to the Ultramarines.. yet they don't which makes their fluff compared to the rest of the 40k universe (I emphasize COMPARED) boring and unbelievable.


Sorry I really don't see it. All Codices present their chosen faction as doing awesome stuff.



This quotation indeed helps, yet I can't find it.
What number of Imperial Armour? What page?

Actually it's Index Astartes No.III not Imperial Armor.

Fixer
22-07-2010, 20:54
So basicly your chapter are thieves?

Recovering ancient relics that once belonged to other legions/chapters and repainting them in our colours, yes.

We'd like to think that killing the giant bugs around the terminator armor, giant sword, and artificer armor was our way of earning them ;)

http://img829.imageshack.us/f/img0644c.jpg/

Also a big insecurity thing about being a fresh new chapter with no real victories to their name being hungry for glory and a chance to prove themselves... while also lacking many of the weapons they need in order to do it.

Then those Ultramarines come and demand all their ancient relics back. I mean, it's not like they havn't taken a pair of gloves and repainted Ultramarines blue themselves.

*shakes fist*

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 20:59
Recovering ancient relics that once belonged to other legions/chapters and repainting them in our colours, yes.


So...........theft then.



We'd like to think that killing the giant bugs around the terminator armor, giant sword, and artificer armor was our way of earning them ;)


Just like pirates! Oh wait.



Also a big insecurity thing about being a fresh new chapter with no real victories to their name being hungry for glory and a chance to prove themselves... while also lacking many of the weapons they need in order to do it.


Then ask the Mechanicus. They are the Astartes. They are meant to get th best of the best. Or they could ask their parent chapter for some.



Then those Ultramarines come and demand all their ancient relics back.

Yes, it's there's.


I mean, it's not like they havn't taken a pair of gloves and repainted Ultramarines blue themselves.


The Ultramarines never stole from other Imperials.

Fixer
22-07-2010, 21:01
Yet it still feels like a legitimate reason for my chapter to have an in-character and long standing grudge against the Ultramarines ;)

Works for me.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 21:04
Yet it still feels like a legitimate reason for my chapter to have an in-character and long standing grudge against the Ultramarines ;)

Works for me.

Regardless I point out any flaws I see in work. If it works for you then fine. But I'll still point out it's flaws.;)

Vaktathi
22-07-2010, 21:06
Sorry I really don't see it. All Codices present their chosen faction as doing awesome stuff.
Yeah, but they don't win every time all the time. I can't recall a tale of an actual Ultramarines defeat. Maybe the Swarmlord's fluff, but the UM's still win in the end. I can recall just about everyone else losing a battle at some point. Most races even in their codex's lose at something at some point. Eldar have the Inyanden (yeah, they beat off the nids, but really was a strategic defeat), Guard have almost everything, Orks are almost always beaten, etc.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 21:08
Yeah, but they don't win every time all the time. I can't recall a tale of an actual Ultramarines defeat. Maybe the Swarmlord's fluff, but the UM's still win in the end. I can recall just about everyone else losing a battle at some point.

Damocles Crusade being pulled back. The loss of the Indomitable to Honsou. Eskador (If it actually happened).

Fixer
22-07-2010, 21:10
The only Ultramarine defeat that comes to mind is the battle against the Alpha Legion.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion#Post-Heresy

The Alpha Legion beat the Ultramarines soundly, then the Imperials left to their ships and then bombarded the planet from orbit... making it a somewhat Phyrric Alpha Legion vicotry.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 21:12
The only Ultramarine defeat that comes to mind is the battle against the Alpha Legion.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion#Post-Heresy

The Alpha Legion beat the Ultramarines soundly, then the Imperials left to their ships and then bombarded the planet from orbit... making it a somewhat Phyrric Alpha Legion vicotry.

Again, Eskador is strange. The Inquistor who revealed it was later heavily implied to be an Alpha Legion traitor and the account of the battle was challenged. However the Ultramarines (If the battle happened as Kravin told it) would have lost tactically and strategicly.

Vaktathi
22-07-2010, 21:16
Damocles Crusade being pulled back. Not really Ultramarine specific, they weren't defeated, it just wasn't going anywhere and the forces were needed elsewhere.


The loss of the Indomitable to Honsou. True, there's that one, forgot about that. Although that's also only a very obscure story as they made very few of those books and they were expensive as **** and direct order only.


Eskador (If it actually happened).Sorta murky, and IIRC they basically just bombed the planet back to oblivion didn't they? So maybe defeated on the ground but not after all accounts.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 21:20
Not really Ultramarine specific, they weren't defeated, it just wasn't going anywhere and the forces were needed elsewhere.


But not exactly sucessful ethier.

Are we talking about wider conflicts or seperate battles? If then Cold Steel Ridge counts. It's harder to find wide-scale conflicts the Ultramarines lost since many of their battles were as part of a larger war.



True, there's that one, forgot about that. Although that's also only a very obscure story as they made very few of those books and they were expensive as **** and direct order only.


It's still refrenced in Chapter's Due.



Sorta murky, and IIRC they basically just bombed the planet back to oblivion didn't they? So maybe defeated on the ground but not after all accounts.

Kravin stated that the stone canyons wuld have provided ''plenty of cover''

Max Jet
22-07-2010, 22:06
I am sorry Lord_Crull, but most of your answers don't even adress my words or proof, that you haven't carefully read what I have been saying, even more to a degree, that makes an answer almost impossible.

I don't know wether you are personally insulted by the amount of Ultramarine flame or wether you mistake me as an Ultramarine basher, but at this rate there is no purpose in the discussion. Please don't feel insulted in any way, I am just going to leave the discussion in a friendly way.

Lord_Crull
22-07-2010, 22:13
I am sorry Lord_Crull, but most of your answers don't even adress my words or proof, that you haven't carefully read what I have been saying, even more to a degree, that makes an answer almost impossible.


I could say the same thing for you. I've already clarified several points. (Points which you were unable to counter)



I don't know wether you are personally insulted by the amount of Ultramarine flame or wether you mistake me as an Ultramarine basher,

I am not insulted at all. I am simply pointing out mistakes and errors were I xee them.

GrogDaTyrant
22-07-2010, 22:56
Most races even in their codex's lose at something at some point.

...Orks are almost always beaten, etc.

Sadly, you are very correct about that. I love the Orks, but none of the canon battles or Black Library novels are worth paying attention to as an Ork player, aside from maybe Armaggedon. In BL's case, nothing they've done is worth reading unless you like hearing (yet again) about -insert random marine chapter here- loosing a mere tactical squad, but punching down millions of Orks with their bare hands. Well, there is one exception... Deff Skwadrun.

Emperor's Scourge
22-07-2010, 23:17
Not really, Guilliman was ruled by the High Lords.
------------------------------------
How? What was Khan's price? What was Dorn's Price? What was Russ's Price?


Thats bull revisionist history right there. Guilliman took a lesser governing body that The Emperor had installed as a bone thrown to mortals and made it the HIGHEST governing body with himself as the ONLY Astartes member AND Commander of the Imperium's entire military. The remnants of the Imperium's government were terrified of Astartes and they jumped at the chance to side with a Primarch that suggested the Astartes bow down to their authority and split their forces.(how convenient that Guilliman suggested Legions be split into chapters of a 1000 when the UMs were the largest remaining legion. The UMs are pretty much the primogenitors of every contemporary Space Marine Chapter. Funny how that worked out...)

Guilliman was behind Horus, behind Sanguinius, behind Dorn and possibly even behind El'Jonson...all of a sudden he's the most powerful person in the Imperium? Because everyone knew deep down how nice and awesome he was? Question: You know a guy named Marc Antony?

As for the second question...well Russ all, but annihilated an Astartes Legion and it cost him more than 60% of his Legion.

Khan...well GW ignores the White Scars almost entirely. I'm surprised they gave them a SC instead of a picture of a penis with an arrow pointing at it next to the words "suck it." So details of their role are limited.

Dorn? Do you read any fluff outside of UM fluff? The guy in charge of the defense of Terra and you're asking what price he paid during the Heresy?
-----------------------

Now for the OPs question: I don't hate the UMs. They're just another chapter that I don't play. Why don't a play them? They sound like they were named by a six year old and their fluff doesn't appeal to me. Also, I don't like bright blue as a color scheme.(which is why I paint my Space Wolves in pre-heresy grey) Thats it really.