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Petey
05-07-2010, 00:51
Just played ogre vs High elves today. I played a shore guard list, which is my take on an elf gunline. My opponent had a pretty standard ogres list, that I used to kill without much trouble last edition (big unit of bulls, big unit of iron guts, big unit of gnoblars, bunch of small units and gorgers to suppliment). I got smoked hard my those ogres. Their new charge range can mean second turn charges, and they hit really really hard in close combat now.

Well, let me say that I've given up on the great eagles as a pick, they've been useless to me in 5 games now. Once again my shadow warrior were off killing things in hand to hand and my shooting was ineffective, despite finagling 3 and a half rounds of shooting with the rest of my army.

To sum up currently on my list of 'you re fired' are great eagles, silverhelms, seaguard, and reavers. I may have to just completely revise my whole army.
I feel very cheezy, as I'm considering taking dragon princes and characters on dragons to compete with the other players in my gaming group.
What s annoying is that I think I can make my army work, just not at the points we re playing at. At 3k I think I can make it work, I just don't seem to have the smarts to do what I need to do at 2k with this type of army.

Is anyone else planning to can the gun line and go to a more melee army, or is it just me?

Gonzoyola
05-07-2010, 00:57
Was this an 8th edition game?

Petey
05-07-2010, 00:59
Yep, I got the rules early as I'm running the intro to 8th games at my local store on the 10th.

Falkman
05-07-2010, 01:12
Is anyone else planning to can the gun line and go to a more melee army, or is it just me?
Not to be rude or anything, but how on earth did you think a gunline with probably the most overcosted ranged units in the game would work?
Bows aren't exactly machine guns you know.

Kloud13
05-07-2010, 01:24
Poor Shadow Warriors, now that they have to more or less rank-up, and the rest of the army gets a form of hatred due to ASF/high Initiative, Shadow Warriors are more or less over-costed Seaguard. And to add insult to injury, Seaguard IMO are over-costed to begin with.

Petey
05-07-2010, 01:31
lmao, I love the not to be rude followed by an insult to ones intelligence statement, gg man.

To answer the question though, we ve been playing a few games amongst my normal group to try out the new rules using the army lists we normally used in seventh. Yes I played seaguard and archer, with eagles and boltthrowers, it never lost in seventh (though it didn't always win).
Yes I know, it's stupid and should have been killed by everything and it was point ineffective and elves are stupid etc. (did i get all your points there?) But it was shooty enough to put paid to melee armies with just enough stuff in it to beat other gun lines. I played it maybe 20 or so times (as I have quite a few 2k armies, it wasn't the only thing I fielded) its record was like 12-0-8. So yeah, I have no idea how it worked before (other than its ability to put 16 wounding hits on a T4 army at long range reliably each turn {before saves}), but now it doesn't, at least against melee dwarves and OK, and skaven.


Poor Shadow Warriors, now that they have to more or less rank-up, and the rest of the army gets a form of hatred due to ASF/high Initiative, Shadow Warriors are more or less over-costed Seaguard. And to add insult to injury, Seaguard IMO are over-costed to begin with.

Too true. I would have liked the shadow warriors getting gear options, like additional hand weapon or shields. I love the models too much to get rid of them from my elf lists though.

Sygerrik
05-07-2010, 04:43
Sea Guard are sweet as hell now. In Horde formation they can attack with a silly number of ranks (5, to be precise), and before they're engaged they can volley like crazy. Units of 30, 10 x 3, will be raining 25 arrows per turn on enemies AND will be able to take a charge from most units.

riotknight
05-07-2010, 05:31
I played a game, not against Ogres mind you, with a Seaguard Centric list.

A level 4 with 5 spells from Lore of Shadows (using pretty much only 3 to win). I played against Lizards but I can't imagine the tactic I used would be much worse against Ogres.

Reduce Toughness Hex on the unit you want to take out. Pump everything into that unit, while at the same time, reducing another units movement using the Signature spell.

My list at 2500 looked something like this:
Lv4 With Shadow
Lv2 with Life
BSB with White Sword.
Noble with Reaver Bow.

2x 30 LSG
2x Bolt Throwers
10x Dragon Princes
1x Eagle
5x Reavers

It rocked a Sauras heavy Lizardmen army (with Slann). With reduced Toughness and slowing down units, The units that finally got in close were so decimated they got wiped out by the attack volumes.

I think that entire game I lost half a unit of Seaguard, the Eagle and 1 Bolt Thrower (Due to poor placement on my part.)

Aluinn
05-07-2010, 06:45
Sea Guard are sweet as hell now. In Horde formation they can attack with a silly number of ranks (5, to be precise), and before they're engaged they can volley like crazy. Units of 30, 10 x 3, will be raining 25 arrows per turn on enemies AND will be able to take a charge from most units.

And 50 Seaguard will cost you how many points?

It's nice to theoryhammer every once in a while but I expect to never actually see such a unit appear on the tabletop. If it does, though the unit itself may be powerful, it will make the rest of the army so weak that it would be a terrible choice.

As many others have said in many other threads, horde units are just amazingly overhyped on internet forums right now. They're great for horde armies like O&G and Skaven, and may see some use in Empire, Brets (Men-at-Arms), or OK (Gnoblars), but other than that they are far from optimal.

For example, Seaguard in 5x4 can fire with 18 models and fight in all ranks. It is much more efficient to use multiple units like this than some unwieldy, ungodly-expensive monstrosity that will be decimated by templates, avoided, flanked, magicked to death (or uselessness) by any of a great many spells that affect every model in a regiment, and so on.

It also essentially eliminates your tactical options when compared to multiple, smaller units. 2 units of 25 can engage a unit to the front and on a flank; a unit of 50 cannot, and will lose if engaged by a unit of 25 to the front and another of 25 to a flank, assuming roughly equal stats and equipment.

Seriously, it's getting to the point where I expect to see someone advocate taking a unit of 50 Saurus on these forums. It's well past time to curb the enthusiasm for hordes, IMO.

Petey
05-07-2010, 09:18
Thanks riot knight, i ll try that (or a variant of it)

My list (keep in mind it was from 7th) was the following

Lord on eagle seafarer bow, armor w wardsave
Hero on horse with 3 shot s5 bow
Hero w radiant gem
Level 2 High mage

20 seaguard
2x10 archers
2 bolt throwers
2 eagles
10 shadow warriors
5 silver helms (they re one of my favorite paint jobs in the army, though I know they ve sucked since last ed)

I ll try the list with an archmage and see what difference it makes. And of course I ll fire the silverhelms and one of the eagles

Sygerrik
05-07-2010, 15:46
And 50 Seaguard will cost you how many points?

It's nice to theoryhammer every once in a while but I expect to never actually see such a unit appear on the tabletop. If it does, though the unit itself may be powerful, it will make the rest of the army so weak that it would be a terrible choice.

As many others have said in many other threads, horde units are just amazingly overhyped on internet forums right now. They're great for horde armies like O&G and Skaven, and may see some use in Empire, Brets (Men-at-Arms), or OK (Gnoblars), but other than that they are far from optimal.

For example, Seaguard in 5x4 can fire with 18 models and fight in all ranks. It is much more efficient to use multiple units like this than some unwieldy, ungodly-expensive monstrosity that will be decimated by templates, avoided, flanked, magicked to death (or uselessness) by any of a great many spells that affect every model in a regiment, and so on.

It also essentially eliminates your tactical options when compared to multiple, smaller units. 2 units of 25 can engage a unit to the front and on a flank; a unit of 50 cannot, and will lose if engaged by a unit of 25 to the front and another of 25 to a flank, assuming roughly equal stats and equipment.

Seriously, it's getting to the point where I expect to see someone advocate taking a unit of 50 Saurus on these forums. It's well past time to curb the enthusiasm for hordes, IMO.

I would say (and did say, if you read closely) 30 would be an excellent choice, not 50-- 50 is where the marginal benefit drops off near zero, but 30 is ideal. And the reason that I am up on hordes is that I have played several games of 8th so far, and hordes are really, really good. They're not perfect, and there are some units that it is inappropriate to horde (swordmasters, black guard), but they really are that good.

Horde-crazy is one thing, but horde units are very, very good if you strike the right balance. I played against Dwarf and High Elf armies that were practically nothing but huge blocks of infantry (with characters and war machines) and both armies did very well.

UberBeast
06-07-2010, 01:02
I think two problems with gunlines in the 8th edition will be:
1. Chain panic
2. Faster engagment times with a lucky charge roll.

Kloud13
06-07-2010, 01:28
I don't think the horde rule will work well for our HE's at all.

The only thing the Horde rule will get Spearelves, or LSG is it would allow the 5th rank to attack. to get a 5th rank at 10 wide, we need 50 models. And we need 50 models after we have undoubtedly taken a few casualities from ranged attacks prior to us being in combat. In other words, if you plan on using Hordes with Spearelves/LSG, you need to have a unit that starts out around 60 probably 70 models.

Elf playes shouldn't even consider the horde rule when building their armies.

UberBeast
06-07-2010, 01:36
Except at large point value game. If your gaming group is going to 3k point games as some are, you might well consider one or even two horde units.

Don Zeko
06-07-2010, 01:38
Elf playes shouldn't even consider the horde rule when building their armies.

I'm not ruling out hordes of DE warriors until I play a few games...

Kloud13
06-07-2010, 02:05
I should have specified High Elf players should not consider hordes in their lists.:angel:

UberBeast
06-07-2010, 04:40
Still, any large unit of Sea Guard will be well worth the points. Having the ability to mass fire bows and then dish out massive amount of CC attacks while maintaining a relatively small fontage... This unit may well be worth its weight in gold, and there will be tons of them around for cheap when the starter set is released.

Gorak
06-07-2010, 08:31
cheers! I've been loving 8th for a couple of weeks now, as for horde units being over hyped? My 40 man bloodletters/free reforming would disagree! Now this is from my daemon point of view but I can get a 2nd turn charge in with icon of endless war eaisly,and kill enough to negate your ranks and thus for stubborness. 5+3d6".....Also I've been playing against a HE player who uses

50 spearelves
bsb w/armour of caldor and 5+ward save
lvl 3 mage with lore of life
2x 18 phoenix guard as flank protecters

It's work well for him. 50 spear elves with re-roll to hit are nasty and with T5 even nastier.

Memnos
06-07-2010, 15:52
Oh my gosh! There's a reduce toughness spell -and- an increase strength spell in shadow?*faints dead away*

30 spearmen, ASFing and rerolling to hit, could kill quite a few people with the 'Reduce Toughness' spell or the 'Increase Strength' spell.

Yep. Shadow would be my go-to lore for Elves. Also, for my Beastmen.


I played a game, not against Ogres mind you, with a Seaguard Centric list.

A level 4 with 5 spells from Lore of Shadows (using pretty much only 3 to win). I played against Lizards but I can't imagine the tactic I used would be much worse against Ogres.

Reduce Toughness Hex on the unit you want to take out. Pump everything into that unit, while at the same time, reducing another units movement using the Signature spell.

My list at 2500 looked something like this:
Lv4 With Shadow
Lv2 with Life
BSB with White Sword.
Noble with Reaver Bow.

2x 30 LSG
2x Bolt Throwers
10x Dragon Princes
1x Eagle
5x Reavers

It rocked a Sauras heavy Lizardmen army (with Slann). With reduced Toughness and slowing down units, The units that finally got in close were so decimated they got wiped out by the attack volumes.

I think that entire game I lost half a unit of Seaguard, the Eagle and 1 Bolt Thrower (Due to poor placement on my part.)

Shrapnelsmile
06-07-2010, 15:55
Is it common in this game to not use half the units in your army book options, because of some issue such as costing or poor stats? I am simply not used to this as a Warmachine player, well MK II anyway.

UberBeast
06-07-2010, 16:06
It's not as common as say in 40k. Depending on collection limitations, many people I see playing WFB field well over half of the units in their army books. It is common to see larger games having a much more varied selection as well. There are of course the occasional unit that is universally despised and seldom played.

Gorak
06-07-2010, 16:12
Is it common in this game to not use half the units in your army book options, because of some issue such as costing or poor stats? I am simply not used to this as a Warmachine player, well MK II anyway.

It comes down to a matter of taste and tactics and well not being a skirmish game. I personaly think warmachine/hordes is over rated, cheaper to collect yes but the scultps/ game mechanics aren't good enough(to me at least) to break into a new game.