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The Inevitable One
05-07-2010, 04:24
Although this has most likely been discussed, I would like to see if we can come up with any more ideas on what happened with the lost Primarchs and their Legions.

So the question is, what do you think happened to the lost Primarchs and do you think Games Workshop will ever reveal their history?

shaso_iceborn
05-07-2010, 04:30
Hidden by the emperor until his rebirth. He knew he would need chaos to happen in order to fully unite humanity in the endgame.

Or beheaded for their power (think Highlander) "There can be only 18" lol

Death Company
05-07-2010, 05:19
.So the question is, what do you think happened to the lost Primarchs and do you think Games Workshop will ever reveal their history?

My guess? Terrible mutation; Thousand Sons quality horrors.

Because even after some of his sons turned against him; the Emperor didn't have their statues on Terra torn down, merely covered up. As the statues of the two missing sons are literally just gone, I can only assume something absolutely horrible befell them.

Perhaps they were removed to ease the pain of remembering; or to keep the Imperial citizens from knowing that the Primarchs weren't without flaws.

As for telling us? Not likely, in my opinion anyways.

Son of Sanguinius
05-07-2010, 06:45
One was a monstrous, chaos-fueled overlord of a planet. The Emperor and what few Primarchs were with him at the time had to obliterate him.

The other vanished, unable to come to terms with his father's goals and reconcile the injustices he saw developing within the fledgling Imperium.

Archaon
05-07-2010, 08:43
I always liked the idea that the Emperor foresaw the Horus Heresy and the coming darkness but had to allow that to happen for whatever reason ala it's the darkest before dawn.

Knowing that the Imperium would stagnate technologically he sent away the Primarch with his Legion and a fully equipped STC together with free minded, "real" scientists and engineers (no Adeptus Mechanicus) beyond the fringe to wait, train and steadily develop technology so that one day, when the Imperium is on its knees they may return and rescue it.

Imagine Marines whose Powerarmor is as resilient as Terminator armor but smaller and lighter or having the firepower of a Plasmagun as the standard infantry weapons all the while riding in antigrav Landraiders as the standard transport vehicles.

Yeah i know.. puberty level fanboism but what the hell :D

We also have little asian influenced Marines (the White Scars are more like Mongols).. how about some Samurai or Chinese flavored Marines with the appropriate warrior code? Imageine an 9 foot tall Toshiro Mifune going to town on his enemies! :D

Askil the Undecided
05-07-2010, 08:48
Maybe they were just a reference to the lost legions of Rome (those that vanished in Caledonia(IIRC) and Germania) and were never meant to be fleshed out at all?

So no GW never means to reveal them.

Lord Zarkov
05-07-2010, 11:13
Regarding Legion II, someone had a theory that thier dissapperance might be related to the decimation of Legion III (Now the Emperor's Children) - possibly a rebellion or some such?
Dorn's musings in The Lighting Tower and Mechanicum imply some sort of rebellion as well - IIRC something along the times of At the time they seemed like abberations, but should their 'separate tradegedies' have served as a warning of things to come.

Luko
05-07-2010, 12:15
Well we all know ALL the primarchs were found and united with big E (dorn lightning tower)

There are also a few quotes about what possibly occured to the missing legions: Bjorn the fell handed refuses to comment on what happen, Mortarion and Magnus (thousand sons) talk about it when they were all last together, until Mortarion tells Magnus to shut up.

In Horus dream with erebus he smashes one of the pods, we all know what happens to people who were directly exposesed to the warp...

So my guess is one of the missing legions/primarchs was a mutated monster and him and his legion was culled and the evidence was removed. It really wouldn't do the great crusade propaganda machine any favours by having the emp meet a new mmutated primarch lol

Luko

Jedi152
05-07-2010, 12:23
The Truth:

They were left intentionally blank to create mystery and so people could invent their own.

Sorry to spoil the fun!

Mozzamanx
05-07-2010, 12:28
Its quite funny how they were left blank to create your own, and yet actually doing so is considered taboo. :p

That said, I do like the idea of having one with the Pariah gene. An entire Legion of pariahs, they wouldnt be able to integrate worlds because the natives would flip out just by being around them. Nobody would join an Imperium with so many monstrosities protecting it, so they'd be purely for killing. No integration, no peace talks, no second chances- just deploy and smash up the place. Big attrition rates as a result, and eventually kicked out / killed off in a similar way to Psykers at Nikaea.

AndrewGPaul
05-07-2010, 14:03
Its quite funny how they were left blank to create your own, and yet actually doing so is considered taboo. :p

Indeed. There was a Space Marine battle report in WD136, Orks vs Space Marines. The Marines in question were the Vindicators, and were made up by Andy Chambers as a 1st Founding Chapter.

If I were to make up a Legion and Primarch for my own games, I'd just rewrite the setting to squeeze him in. It's probably be easiest to say he and his Legion spent the Heresy in the Eastern Fringe with the Ultramarines and, like the Ultramarines, couldn't make it to Terra in time.

Alternatively, I'd maybe make them a female Legion, just to annoy people who take this seriously. :)

Jedi152
05-07-2010, 14:27
Its quite funny how they were left blank to create your own, and yet actually doing so is considered taboo. :p
In Rogue Trader, the background was a lot less stable and you were encouraged to invent stuff.

You were also specifically advised to make tanks out of household bits and bobs. The infamous deodorant stick tank comes to mind.

The_Blind_Anarchist
05-07-2010, 14:32
Well both legions and their Primarchs were found and reunited and fought during the Heresy.

Askil the Undecided
05-07-2010, 15:05
Fine, this is what is known and need no longer be repeated.


Maybe they were just a reference to the lost legions of Rome (those that vanished in Caledonia(IIRC) and Germania) and were never meant to be fleshed out at all?

So no GW never means to reveal them.


Well we all know ALL the primarchs were found and united with big E (dorn lightning tower)

There are also a few quotes about what possibly occured to the missing legions: Bjorn the fell handed refuses to comment on what happen, Mortarion and Magnus (thousand sons) talk about it when they were all last together, until Mortarion tells Magnus to shut up.

In Horus dream with erebus he smashes one of the pods, we all know what happens to people who were directly exposesed to the warp...


In Rogue Trader, the background was a lot less stable and you were encouraged to invent stuff.

Done.

Lost legions wrapped up.

Sinisterfence
05-07-2010, 16:09
it seems they're trying to get rid of the "we left 2 blank so you can make your own!" line and starting to hint at something majorly disastrous happening to them before the heresy, which is good imo, it's kinda lame how everyone and their mule has a different missing legion of wtfpwnage badassery

Cheesolith
05-07-2010, 20:15
Both of them were Alpharius in disguise.

Or the Emperor doesn't count in decimal numbers and only actually produced 18 of them and the person in charge of making statues for them doesn't understand that.

fracas
05-07-2010, 21:03
one was a chick. unable to use her geneseed to create more marines, her line died. she became head of the sisters of silence.

one and his/her legion lost to the warp/extragalactic space

gwarsh41
05-07-2010, 21:10
Gork and Mork. The ork gods.

It makes perfect sense.

MrSatan
05-07-2010, 21:31
The sanguinor and Marneus Calgar

/Thread

ODINM4
05-07-2010, 21:45
Both primarch where taken in by the eldar to be used at the end of times

Logan_uc
05-07-2010, 22:05
they are waiting in line to be operated in some public hospital, so we will have to wait a long long time before they come back.

barrangas
06-07-2010, 00:21
One has joined the peace corp to spite his dad and the other one is in the basement below the Golden Throne playing video games. :)

Solar_Eclipse
06-07-2010, 02:53
The Obvious Answer?

Eaten by a Void Whale.

My personal view?

They came to blows against each other, both calling each other traitor and tearing each other apart. The remains of the legions died slowely in the cold depth of space, nowhere to go, nowhere to hide. Its a big galaxy, and you will not be missed.

Iuris
06-07-2010, 14:32
I've had MANY ideas for them, myself, while idly fantasizing. Some of my favourites:
-one declined to join the Imperium, remaining on the world of their birth. Essentially, wants to stay human. Possibly involves a girl. Emperor magnanimously lets him, and erases all data.
-one decided the Imperium means putting all the eggs into one basket and decides to take representative forces and resources to start a "backup humanity" somewhere in/out of the galaxy. Emperor erases records so in case Imperium falls, the backup won't be immediately found by the one who conquers the Imperium.
-early rebellions, with the Emperor erasing data early, so the Imperium would find marine legion rebellions inconceivable
-Xenos sympathizers from birth. Killed when attempts to convince them otherwise failed, debacle covered up.
-"undecided" - refused to take sides during the Heresy, Emperor curses them by denying them any place in history

That's just some of them, but I mostly prefer the first two.

Gingerwerewolf
07-07-2010, 11:14
My personal beliefs were formed years ago before the Horus Heresy books. I always thought that:

One of the Primarchs was Sigmar in the Warhammer old world. This was due to the fact that in Realms of Chaos, they hinted that the Warhammer World was actually on the far fringes of the Galaxy in the warhammer 40,000 universe. Due to the Warp Storms that constantly surround the planet that were formed by the collapse of the chaos gates at both poles, the Emperor was unable to find him.

The Second is hinted at in the old Inquisitor Books (Draco), and I thought that he was found by the Eldar, specifically the Harlequins and used as one of the Guardians of the Black Library.

As to what happened to their Legions I was always under the impression that they were not created until they were found. That Pre-Primarch Space Marines of a specific chapter did not have any of the Primarchs code in them. Thus any Marines in the two chapters that became unused were just put into other chapters.

Most of this comes from stuff that is Way old and well out of print, and considered heratical in the new History of the future ;)

Iuris
07-07-2010, 11:19
Yeah, especially with Sigmar's birth and all detailed in the new books :)

Don't we just love how GW fluff changes with time? I'm so much happier ever since I stopped caring too much :)

Gingerwerewolf
07-07-2010, 11:24
Yeah, especially with Sigmar's birth and all detailed in the new books :)

Don't we just love how GW fluff changes with time? I'm so much happier ever since I stopped caring too much :)

Well that was the thing, the Twin Tailed Comet, could easily have been a capsule landing. Sigmar was origionally adopted / a found Baby it all made sense, but now...

As you say though I dont care that much, its a means to an end! We all want stories of Space Marines defeating 100's of foes!

Iuris
07-07-2010, 11:31
We all want stories of Space Marines defeating 100's of foes!
Hmm, maybe, but only when they're themselves in the hundreds. I like my 40k down to earth :)

nedius
07-07-2010, 11:52
From what I remember, the lost legions were considered something of a tragedy - but the Emperor (in Descent of Angels) shows he is more than happy to expunge disent from history when he is taling to those interogating one of the Dark Angels who saved him (can't remember off the top of my head). In another story, I'm sure there's a line somewhat about the seperate tragedies of the two lost legions.

In one story, Dorn is wishing he had the other two legions with him, but is warned off. the implication was that whilst the still legions existed, they were either unable or unwilling, or even unwanted, to help.

So, my reading is that during the HH, both legions still existed in one form or another, but something happened that made it impossible for them to be part of the Imperium.

I like to imagine that their loss was a real tradgedy, not a 'disaster' .

My ideas are that one was good - but real good - Not the Imperial Kill Everyone sort of good. I sort of picture him as part of a society where human and other xenos races lived in harmony with each other (perhaps even the occasional blood axe mercenary being used by them!), for mutual protection or whatever. And that somehow, when his legion was left with him to purge the other races from his worlds, he changed their minds, turned them against the xenophobic Imperial creed and they rebelled - refusing to kill xenos races that were not threat to the Imperium for no other reason than they were xenos.

The other, tainted by their primarchs warp exposed geneseed, began to mutate horribly, but again, remained loyal. However, the Emperor could not accept such wide spread mutation in a legion when mutations were considered a thing to fear and lothe. As such, they were forced to banish the legion.

This way, Dorn could genuinely wish they had the help of the other legions - they exist and could possibly be convinved to defend earth, but by the Emperors decree both legions could not be part of the Imperium, so were, tragically, 'lost'.

To me, that makes what happened to them turely tragic - where events beyond their control led to their expulsion from the Imperium.

Professor Grumbles
07-07-2010, 15:08
Putting aside the Horus Heresy for a moment, my favorite idea is that one of the lost primarches became the new emperor. Essentially, a rift developed between the pragmatists, whose greatest concern was the great crusade and the establishment of the empire, and the idealists, whose greatest concern was loyalty to their father. The idealists sought to follow the emperor's plan to the 't' come hell or high water. The pragmatists were slowly becoming aware that the emperor's plan wan't feasible. Eventually, the pragmatists assassinated the emperor and installed one of their number on the throne. The idealists, led by Horus, were appalled and launched a civil war. The emotional motivation that led the idealists put them on the path to chaos*, while the pragmatists continued to venerate the true emperor's memory for the part he played in bringing about humanity's destiny. I know it's kinda silly, but I think it could be cool if fleshed out.

*This could even show why some of them went with certain gods: Angron's hate devolved into unbridled rage, Mortarion was despondent and depressed, Magnus hoped for a way to change history or bring the emperor back, and Fulgrim hid from his acceptance of the preceedings in sensous pleasure and gluttony.

Spare Change
08-07-2010, 10:41
I've always considered instability of the genetic makeup to be a big part of the missing Primarchs and Legions. (I know they were left blank for a reason, hush.)

If you consider that both Fulgrim and Magnus had Legions that had trouble genetically early on, and you consider the Chaos - born mutation of some Primarchs, like Magnus or Sanguinius, it isn't too far fetched to think maybe two chapters just became so far from Human they had to be purged, regardless of their allegiances.

It would explain why they seem to be remembered as a tragedy by Dorn in The Lightning Tower, not as something to be hated.

Brother of the Hydra
08-07-2010, 11:19
I am of the opinion that one rebelled and they were put down by the other Legion but destroyed each other. Erased to preserve the ideals of the Emperors perfection and that the Legions were flawless. Giving the seperate tragedy mentioned in the DK&LT audio book.

Some marines obviously survived and were amalgamated into the other Legions (mentioned in a Blood Angels book??) but probably mind scrubbed by the Emperor himself.

RunepriestRidcully
08-07-2010, 19:05
I think it said they were cattered throughout time as well as space, so one may not have come out of the warp yet, who knows, one of the lost Primarchs landing could potentially save the imperials maybe? This also leaves the funny idea, that charecters in other settings could be Primarchs, perhaps Kenpachi Zaraki, Unohana, Vetinari, Rincewind, Hari Seldon, Boris Ignatievich, Olga, Zabulon and I am sure many others could be possible Primarchs, should I open another thread for suggestions of which fictional charecters could be primarchs and whay their legions names were, or should I leave it here?

barrangas
08-07-2010, 19:11
It could be possible that the two Primarchs HATED each other. They hated each other more then they loved the Emperor to the point that they gathered their Legions and fought to their own mutual anihilation.

the_gobbo_king
09-07-2010, 04:51
I think we all know who they are...

Carl of the Fear Loathers Legion and Hecate of the Sisters of Battle.

Scott.

P.S If you don't get it. Read Primarchs by Lastie

MarshallSam
09-07-2010, 11:18
After reading several thread similar to this, I always get a kick out of when people say that "Maybe one refused the Emperor". We have a Primarch that did refuse him. Angron. And how did the Emperor react when not only did Angron refuse him but also attacked him killing a Custode? He said screw this your my creation and I'm taking you whether you like it or not! Then unlike the other Primarchs that were introduced to Imperial society & tech, he just dumped the raging Primarch with his legion and told the "War Hounds", "You deal with him!" It wasn't until after he accepted his role in the Emperor's war machine, it wasn't even the Emperor who taught him. Horus had that honor.

Gekiganger
09-07-2010, 17:12
It could be possible that the two Primarchs HATED each other. They hated each other more then they loved the Emperor to the point that they gathered their Legions and fought to their own mutual anihilation.


I am of the opinion that one rebelled and they were put down by the other Legion but destroyed each other. Erased to preserve the ideals of the Emperors perfection and that the Legions were flawless. Giving the seperate tragedy mentioned in the DK&LT audio book.


Not really 'separate' tragedies if they wiped each other out.

I'm hoping the hints in the horus heresy books are leading towards GW eventually giving them some background, it could be just some grimdark atmosphere being shoved in without any real depth though.




Don't we just love how GW fluff changes with time? I'm so much happier ever since I stopped caring too much :)

You'd prefer the fluff stagnated by them never changing it or we still had 40k weaponry in fantasy?

OutOfContext
09-07-2010, 18:06
They got in one little fight, and the Emperor got scared and said 'You're moving in with your Aunt and Uncle in Bel Air'.

Apologies, but I couldn't resist.
Anywho, I'm from the school of thought they're left blank for creative freedom of players, which as pointed out, is shunned by a lot of players now.

thesheriff
15-07-2010, 11:58
Heres my theroy (brace yourself)
The old world is trapped in a space time bubble/warp storm. When the Horus heresy was going on, A warrior priest was sent a vision. He saw the emperor die, and was turned evil. Hence, Archeon the Everchosen - envisioning his father diying sent him insane. Then, a twin-tailed comet hurtled through the sky. this signalled the awakening of The emperors gene in Valten. The two enacted a mini-heresy if you like, and echoed the fight against the emperor and horus

Alternativly, Chuck Norris and Mr.T. Your choice

thesheriff

ulruk headsplitter
15-07-2010, 20:31
the one whose pod was crushed suffered massive warp diarhea and therefore missed the heresy and all that crap.
the 2nd one floated against a rock and died.
end of story.

Asurman
15-07-2010, 21:20
Dorn’s aimless wanderings had taken him to the Investiary. In
that broad space, an amphitheatre open to the night sky, statues
of the twenty stood on ouslite plinths in a silent ring.
There was no one around. Even the Custodian Guard was absent.
Lumen orbs glowed on black iron poles. The Investiary was
two kilometres in diameter. Under the glittering stars, it felt like
an arena, where twenty warriors had gathered to make their
combat.
The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long
time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate
tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact,
been warnings that no one had heeded?
Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed
from the Investiary. He had offered to do the work himself.
This, Dorn recalled, had made the Emperor laugh.
For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded. Their towering,
draped forms seemed like phantoms in the blue darkness.

The idea of Marines and "brothers" fighting one-another is so utterly alien when the Heresy happens, that I can only guess that the missing Primarchs were never "traitors".

I think based upon the fact that they seem to be "tragedies", and not a focus of hatred, shows that something terrible befell them. Perhaps as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, mass mutation or genetic instability.

Magnus was blood-red, had a single, colour-changing eye, and had bone like spikes coming out of his shoulders.. Sanguinius had angelic wings. These are "accepted" mutations; it makes you wonder just how mutated the lost Primarchs/Legions really were.

FabricatorGeneralMike
15-07-2010, 22:59
They got in one little fight, and the Emperor got scared and said 'You're moving in with your Aunt and Uncle in Bel Air'.

Apologies, but I couldn't resist.
Anywho, I'm from the school of thought they're left blank for creative freedom of players, which as pointed out, is shunned by a lot of players now.

' I whistled for a Battle Barge, and when it came near the name plate said Fresh and it had dice on the mirror, if anything I can say this Battle Barge was where, but I thought naa forget it, yo serf, to terra'

I think they are just a left-over from a earlier time in GW's history. I kinda like the mystery personally. Why does everyone want to know everything about the 40k universe? I think my imagination is way better then whatever BL could write (except for Abnett and ADB, they kick ass, sighs to bad Gord Rennie still isn't around =o[) about them.

" It's the mystery that endures. Not the explanation. A good mystery can last forever. The mysterious corpse has a magic all its own. Nobody really cares who done it."

sebold
01-08-2010, 11:23
LOL ur all wrong! u guys must relate ur answers to the grimdark and aptly apocaliptic view of 40k as well as mixing in with the fluff

thats why one primarch was a Blank and one was a pariah...... then again, they say oe turned to chaos and 11 is malals number so i gues the 11th legion was lost when GW lost the guy who thought up malal and they took away one loyal legion to balance the loss..... or the lost primarchs are probably a Girl and a Dwarf/ squat. or all of the above! a super rare dual blank/pariah and blariah or a plank Woman and the other was a chaos dwarf/squat worshiping malal who was then eaten(with his entire legion) by the tyranids.. oh ya, and the blank/paraih girl is in the emperors collapsed webway unable to be saved since the big E cant lift a toe or a finger:wtf: madness!

Shaft, Lord of Slaanesh
01-08-2010, 23:23
One was Sigmar and the other was assassinated by Kell the Vindicare assassin in Nemesis :p

Back in real life (!) with the previous version of the Space Marine codex (the one with Calgar on the front) when they presented the '20' Space Marine legions, the studio did give each of the two missing chapters names before rendering them to illegible scribbles. I believe one of them was 'spoon marines' :D

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 00:43
LOL ur all wrong! u guys must relate ur answers to the grimdark and aptly apocaliptic view of 40k as well as mixing in with the fluff

thats why one primarch was a Blank and one was a pariah...... then again, they say oe turned to chaos and 11 is malals number so i gues the 11th legion was lost when GW lost the guy who thought up malal and they took away one loyal legion to balance the loss..... or the lost primarchs are probably a Girl and a Dwarf/ squat. or all of the above! a super rare dual blank/pariah and blariah or a plank Woman and the other was a chaos dwarf/squat worshiping malal who was then eaten(with his entire legion) by the tyranids.. oh ya, and the blank/paraih girl is in the emperors collapsed webway unable to be saved since the big E cant lift a toe or a finger:wtf: madness!

I feel my sense of grammar withering.

thesheriff
02-08-2010, 09:18
I feel my sense of grammar withering.

Same, that grammar makes my head hurt

MvS
02-08-2010, 11:14
The idea of Marines and "brothers" fighting one-another is so utterly alien when the Heresy happens, that I can only guess that the missing Primarchs were never "traitors".
Treachery doesn't have to imply armed rebellion. It could mean a rejection of the Emperor and a refusal to fight, to the point of accepting death.

It could mean flight. Perhaps one of them simply packed his bags and left, heading out to the darkness between galaxies.

There are many possibilities.

khirsath
02-08-2010, 20:33
My spin on the two lost legions: keeping in mind that they both fought in the crusade with their primarchs and had separate tragedies. During the crusade it was imperative to maintain the manifest destiny of humanity and the image of Astartes as those who would bring it about. Also that the Emperor had two big secrets that he didn't share with all of his sons, namely Chaos and the existence of the webway.

The first lost legion: After decades of fighting for the crusade, they push into the eye of terror. At first only the boundaries and fight what they believe to be a vast xenos threat that has infected human planets but in truth is Chaos corruption. They push further into the eye in their ignorance to rid the galaxy of this nefarious xenos. Obviously underestimating the scale of the undertaking, they fight on for a decade or two until the legion is decimated. The few survivors limp out of the eye and back into Imperium controlled territory. Except that exposure to warp over the campaign has mutated many of the marines, some may have resisted. The Emperor sees this, knows they are likely corrupt and most likely know too much about Chaos. Knowledge he doesn't want spread, so he arranges to have the few survivors removed (not necessarily killed). Makes up a story to tell the other sons and erases all records of the legion to insure that no one else is motivated to investigate Chaos.

The second lost legion: After discovering a webway portal on some long abandoned world the Emperor learns how to open it. A galaxy spanning webway is something that cannot be allowed to remain in xenos hands. So an entire legion is sent in to either take it over or destroy it. Of course they have no control over the webway and soon find themselves attacked by a technologically advanced enemy with intimate knowledge and control of the battlefield. Soon they are cut off from their entrance portal, likely severed from the webway to prevent another legion from entering. The Emperor is unaware of the fate of the legion. He is convinced that if he had his own portal and devices he could control the webway to some degree and not be at the whim of his enemies. Fearing that his lost son may be alive still he puts all of his energy into rushing the webway project, which had likely already been started by this point. To maintain as much an element of surprise as he can with a xenos that can predict the future he invents a tragic tale and expunges the records of the legion from the greater Imperium. The portal project and preparations for the upcoming war in the webway consumes the Emperor to the point that he hands the reigns of the greater crusade over to Horus, and blinds his far-sight to all other paths.

Anyway that's a rough summary two theories I like to entertain.

jdunn
02-08-2010, 23:25
gork and mork. The ork gods.

It makes perfect sense.



yes!!!!! Agree!!!!