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CKO
05-07-2010, 18:52
I was wondering how acceptable is the use of uncommon technology? My DIY chapter has very close ties with the adeptus mechanicus and I dont want to have librarians in my chapter, but I would like to use their rules claiming that its technology instead of the warp. Librarians and Techmarines are viewed very similar by outsiders, I just would like to know what you guys think.

Tonberry
05-07-2010, 18:54
The astartes keep themselves to themselves and few are foolish enough to question their methods.

Askil the Undecided
05-07-2010, 22:39
Uncommon technology is fine if it's from the AdMech but dropping libbies totally is

A) So overdone in homebrew mecha-marines as to be practically cliche.

B) Not fluff viable, psykers are actually required to survive as a military force in the 40k galaxy.

C) The Librarium serves the highly useful purpose besides keeping the chapter histories that of deploying librarians to function as a planetary range communications relay that requires no potentially unreliable tech to function. and needs no line of sight.

Green-is-best
05-07-2010, 22:44
B) Not fluff viable, psykers are actually required to survive as a military force in the 40k galaxy.

*cough*TAU*cough*

ODINM4
05-07-2010, 22:49
black templars dont use physkers

Clockwork-Knight
05-07-2010, 23:14
They do use navigators and astropaths, however.

barrangas
05-07-2010, 23:58
Dark Eldar, Necrons, World Eaters and other followers of Khorne also don't use Psykers.

OT: Remember Clarks Law: sufficiently advanced technology will look like magic. It's your chapter, go for it.

MagosHereticus
06-07-2010, 04:07
*cough*TAU*cough*

the tau can barely retain contact with across their empire (which is only a couple of dozen light years in diameter iirc), resorting to sticking postit notes on ships to retain contact is the best they can manage

MagosHereticus
06-07-2010, 04:13
Dark Eldar, Necrons, World Eaters and other followers of Khorne also don't use Psykers.

OT: Remember Clarks Law: sufficiently advanced technology will look like magic. It's your chapter, go for it.

world eaters are directed via their god an his daemons, a pretty neat proxy

the necrons communication technology is not described

the dark eldar do suffer because of their lack of faster than light communication, if they are dirtside and cut off from escape by a superior force, they cannot send a distress signal for help, they will be wiped out

Ilkhan
06-07-2010, 05:18
the necrons communication technology is not described

Do Necrons even have FTL communication? Granted, I've not read their codex, but most of the descriptions of Necrons in action that I've heard have pretty much made it sound like each Tomb World operates on its own volition, without contact with the greater whole of... err... Necrondom.

They may have some links with each other through the C'Tan, whose powers are great and handwavey, but I've not personally seen any evidence for other interstellar communication between them.

Polaria
06-07-2010, 05:45
Necron have no psychic powers of any kind. This is because they are pretty much as anti-psychic as anything in 40k universe gets. Hell, pile a few of their normal Monoliths into a proper formation and what you get is null-field which not only blocks all psychic powers but actually makes psychic power unable to exist inside the field.

However, considering that Necrontyr technology can slow and accelerate time, bend the spatial dimensions material universe into new shape and teleport thing from Tomb World into another solar system and back I would be inclined to think that such minor things as sending a few terabytes of data across few thousand lightyears in one instant is quite trivial to them.

Askil the Undecided
06-07-2010, 08:47
Having read the abouve posts I restate my previous point more clearly.

B) Librarians are required for FTL communications from astropaths to forces on the ground. dealing with enemy psykers, early warning of psychic activity, the ability to detect, fight and seal deamonic incursions, detection of chaos taint in battle brothers, support of commanders by access to the knowledge of the librarium and possibly psychic insights into the future and finally support of troops with their psychic powers in the field.

Polaria
06-07-2010, 09:43
Askil has a point, psykers are pretty much required for waging warfare "Imperial Style".

As for the original DYI chapter idea: Librarians are still a rare asset. A marine chapter of 1000 brothers might have only dozen or so Librarians. If you want to keep Librarian characters completely away from your chapter you could write the background so that due to mutations in the geneseed this particular chapter produces very few psykers and most of those few don't make it through the selection process. Communication, foresight etc. duties normally handled by Librarians are done by a detached group of bondsmen navigator-psykers who also navigate the chapters fleet.

For tabletop you can, imo, use AdMech techwonders to represent psychic powers, but you can't have a chapter completely without psykers because they still need someone to navigate in space.

barrangas
06-07-2010, 12:04
world eaters are directed via their god an his daemons, a pretty neat proxy

the necrons communication technology is not described

the dark eldar do suffer because of their lack of faster than light communication, if they are dirtside and cut off from escape by a superior force, they cannot send a distress signal for help, they will be wiped out

The original post that this was in regards to was that you need psykers to survive in 40k. We've provided 3 codexs and one very popular force that can't or don't use psykers.

Tau- considering the fluff around them, they would be likely to overcome communication problems. I also believe their Empire covers more then a dozen light years.

World Eaters- Yep they've got a god, no Psykers. In Rogue Trader you could buy Librarians for World Eaters but it specifically stated they abandoned their powers and you couldn't buy any powers for them.

Necrons- I think it's pretty safe to assume, considering how they avoid the Warp like the plague, it doesn't have to do with psykers.

Dark Eldar- If a cut off Dark Eldar force called back to Cormarragh for help, they'd probably be laughed at. They rely on they rely on the Webway to get around. Do you have an source that shows the DE suffering from lack of psykers?

MagosHereticus
06-07-2010, 12:18
Necron have no psychic powers of any kind. This is because they are pretty much as anti-psychic as anything in 40k universe gets. Hell, pile a few of their normal Monoliths into a proper formation and what you get is null-field which not only blocks all psychic powers but actually makes psychic power unable to exist inside the field.


what's this referenced from?

Polaria
06-07-2010, 12:35
what's this referenced from?

C'tan aversion to psychic powers is explained in Necron Codex. The whole Codex has no psychic power but instead Pariahs which are anti-psykers and it is hinted that this is the future C'tan plan for the whole galaxy. When Apocalypse and Apocalype: Reloaded came out the anti-psychic nature of the Necron was further reinforced by adding Monolith formations. Two Monoliths make up a line between them which no psychic power can cross. Three monoliths create a triangle-shaped zone between them into which no psychic power can enter and inside which you cannot use any psychic powers at all.

Eisenhorn novel also discusses Necron pylons found on several planets in Cadian Gate area. It is hinted that these pylons somehow suppress the powers of the warp resulting in the relative calm area of the Cadian Gate even though it is extremely near to Eye of Terror.

Askil the Undecided
06-07-2010, 12:48
In short: Astartes need librarians, real ones, the kind with psychic powers.

Also Geneseed don't have any bearing on psychic powers you are either born a psyker or you aren't ever one (unless Chaos plays with you.)

MagosHereticus
06-07-2010, 14:24
In short: Astartes need librarians, real ones, the kind with psychic powers.

Also Geneseed don't have any bearing on psychic powers you are either born a psyker or you aren't ever one (unless Chaos plays with you.)

it's hinted that certain kinds of geneseed may enhance latent powers boosting those who would normally not be capable, up to a level where they can utilise psychic powers

cornonthecob
06-07-2010, 14:35
Maybe their geneseed causes those who have psychic abilities to lose them ?

Malice313
06-07-2010, 16:01
To get back to the original post.

Don't forget that "uncommon technology" is subjective to the various part of the galaxy you happen to be in. Grav motors might be par se here and anathema there. The holy Bolter maybe the standard long arm here and a mythic weapon of sky gods power there.

MagosHereticus
06-07-2010, 16:30
Maybe their geneseed causes those who have psychic abilities to lose them ?

completely unprecedented

cornonthecob
07-07-2010, 08:12
As are mutations.

Askil the Undecided
07-07-2010, 08:48
Being a psyker is to do with the nature of your soul, implanting new organs int your body doesn't change anything about your soul, at all although some mutations can help if you are a psyker already.

For example, the Blood Ravens have flawless recall. Such a mutation can help with being a psyker (because you don't forget what you've learned) but they have a high proportion of psykers simply because they recruit more psykers.

Iuris
07-07-2010, 11:26
Actually, I don't think GW has ever made that quite clear, Askill. They're quite quiet on the issues.

But if it has anything to do with the body, it's apparently the brain where it's at, given that heretical psy-engine from Dark heresy - a couple of brains in a backpack, with psy power used like a gun...

MagosHereticus
07-07-2010, 11:33
Being a psyker is to do with the nature of your soul, implanting new organs int your body doesn't change anything about your soul, at all although some mutations can help if you are a psyker already.

For example, the Blood Ravens have flawless recall. Such a mutation can help with being a psyker (because you don't forget what you've learned) but they have a high proportion of psykers simply because they recruit more psykers.

the body creates the soul, which is why mutation can lead to psykic potential (it is also why mutations linked with the pariah gene can create an anti-soul)

the soul is the interface between the body and the warp, it is a conduit, the body creates that conduit with the mind, the body is to the soul what a light globe is to the light

MagosHereticus
07-07-2010, 11:33
As are mutations.

incorrect, mutation is present in the fluff

Sandlemad
07-07-2010, 23:34
So if librarians are necessary to astartes warfare to the point where they can't be replaced with non-astartes psykers, how do the Black Templars get along?
Interesting to note that they are one of the largest and least centralised chapters, mind.

Askil the Undecided
07-07-2010, 23:42
They break the rules of the codex flagrantly. You know, those rules that define what "astartes warfare" is, like size limits, librarians, company organisations and other such things. The BT also have little central command and would be rounded up by the inquisition for breaking size limitations so blatantly if they didn't make such handy allies for the puritans in a pinch.

Also they suffer from their lack of psykers quite badly. Most notably by not having a bloody clue when their enemies have psykers until the warp starts boiling their brains out of their skulls, and then not having anyone who can fight back on an equal playing field.

spetswalshe
08-07-2010, 00:14
B) Librarians are required for FTL communications from astropaths to forces on the ground. dealing with enemy psykers, early warning of psychic activity, the ability to detect, fight and seal deamonic incursions, detection of chaos taint in battle brothers, support of commanders by access to the knowledge of the librarium and possibly psychic insights into the future and finally support of troops with their psychic powers in the field.

All of that could be done by attached civilian or military psykers. Most Inquisitors - who come up against Chaos and psyker activity regularly - have no psychic abilities whatsoever; some get by with psykers in their retinues (vat-psykers FTW!), others refuse to use anything of the sort. While civilian psykers are, of course, likely to be less powerful or reliable than a Librarian, they're also immensely more easily replaced, and able to be taken in much, much larger quantities. Actually battling daemons and psykers is a job that the regular Marines can do well enough; a psyker is such an integral asset that it really doesn't make sense to have him spend half his life training to use a bolter. Also, I'm pretty sure detecting Chaos taint is the job of the Chaplains.

Back to the OP, I think a retinue of sufficiently advanced AdMech adepts would fit the bill nicely; a vat-psyker or group of networked, mind-shriven psyker brains for communications, a logic-engine with attendant dataslave for librarium research, and a Techpriest with warp-sensitive mechanical equipment for 'I feel a disturbance in the Force' moments.

Askil the Undecided
08-07-2010, 00:34
All of that could be done by attached civilian or military psykers. Most Inquisitors - who come up against Chaos and psyker activity regularly - have no psychic abilities whatsoever; some get by with psykers in their retinues (vat-psykers FTW!), others refuse to use anything of the sort. While civilian psykers are, of course, likely to be less powerful or reliable than a Librarian, they're also immensely more easily replaced, and able to be taken in much, much larger quantities. Actually battling daemons and psykers is a job that the regular Marines can do well enough; a psyker is such an integral asset that it really doesn't make sense to have him spend half his life training to use a bolter. Also, I'm pretty sure detecting Chaos taint is the job of the Chaplains.

Back to the OP, I think a retinue of sufficiently advanced AdMech adepts would fit the bill nicely; a vat-psyker or group of networked, mind-shriven psyker brains for communications, a logic-engine with attendant dataslave for librarium research, and a Techpriest with warp-sensitive mechanical equipment for 'I feel a disturbance in the Force' moments.

Actually most Inquisitors don't "come up against Chaos and psyker activity regularly" in fact most of them are more concerned with more bog-standard heretics and aliens.

Standard Human psykers would be a liability and an irritation to Astartes, mainly on account of being too squishy in battle, not resilient enough to hostile environments and not long lived enough.

Also if such technology was available and effective why wouldn't everyone use it and bypass the risks of psykers?

MagosHereticus
08-07-2010, 01:47
most inquisitors are psykers

Lone-Wanderer
08-07-2010, 02:41
most inquisitors are psykers

Oh by no means are most psykers. In fact from the majority of fluff id say its either 50/50 or 55/45 for normal humans and psykers.

MagosHereticus
08-07-2010, 09:05
Oh by no means are most psykers. In fact from the majority of fluff id say its either 50/50 or 55/45 for normal humans and psykers.

rules wise they are all psykers

Askil the Undecided
08-07-2010, 12:33
rules wise they are all psykers

Yes, but this is a background forum, so that's irrelevant.

It's much like saying that in-universe everyone on foot in the entire galaxy moves at the same rate, nobody ever throws frag grenades apart from to distract people before running into close combat, warring sides take it in turns to move and shoot in a strictly ordered sequence and plasma pistols overheat exactly 16% of the time. All because the rules say so.

spetswalshe
08-07-2010, 13:07
I think it's more accurate to say the rules give the option of every Inquisitor being a psyker. It's kind of like saying all Marine Sergeants carry power weapons.


Standard Human psykers would be a liability and an irritation to Astartes, mainly on account of being too squishy in battle, not resilient enough to hostile environments and not long lived enough.

I can't see why a psyker would be required on the actual battlefield - not in the conditions in which a Marine squad is likely to operate, anyway. Thunderhawks or other command vehicles are perfectly able to accomodate them. I can't imagine the rank and file of the Guard psyker corps - those focused entirely on communications or foretelling, like the Astra Telepathica - see much time in the trenches either.


Also if such technology was available and effective why wouldn't everyone use it and bypass the risks of psykers?

Any number of reasons - maybe it's significantly riskier, less reliable, unique or lost technology, borderline heretical, immensely more expensive to produce, requires a very specific type of psyker-brain, anything.

Gaargod
08-07-2010, 17:42
Who says it avoids the risks? By using technology (possibly forbidden tech) as psychic powers, you have to explain what happens when the user rolls Perils of the Warp.

For example, when a Techlibrarian (or whatever the hell you are calling him) uses Gate of Infinity, you could explain that he's actually using Necron portal technology, which has been customised to work with humans/marines. Of course, the human designers aren't as good as the Necrontyr designers, so there's a chance of it going wrong - maybe it overheats and blasts a hole in the user (Perils) or maybe it only teleports half of a person (rolling a double for scatter).



Incidentally, there was a suggestion floating around that Necrons would be able use psychic powers like this - not really psychic powers per se, but technology so advanced it looks like magic (incidentally, thanks to whoever gave me the name of Clark's Law. Been using that statement for years without knowing who said it!).

MagosHereticus
08-07-2010, 17:51
Yes, but this is a background forum, so that's irrelevant.

It's much like saying that in-universe everyone on foot in the entire galaxy moves at the same rate, nobody ever throws frag grenades apart from to distract people before running into close combat, warring sides take it in turns to move and shoot in a strictly ordered sequence and plasma pistols overheat exactly 16% of the time. All because the rules say so.

the rule in this instance reflects the fluff, it is not an arbitrary game balance rule and it's not like the rules and fluff form two non overlapping magisterium

rules can generally be interpreted as meaning something significant in the fluff, for instance terminator armour providing better protection than power armour, bolt guns doing more damage than lasguns, yarrick being able to fight through the worst of his injuries because he is so damn heroic

we will never know the "true" proportion of psykers within the imperium but the rules suggest it is a pretty significant proportion

MagosHereticus
08-07-2010, 17:57
I can't see why a psyker would be required on the actual battlefield - not in the conditions in which a Marine squad is likely to operate, anyway. Thunderhawks or other command vehicles are perfectly able to accomodate them. I can't imagine the rank and file of the Guard psyker corps - those focused entirely on communications or foretelling, like the Astra Telepathica - see much time in the trenches either.

a small elite force where every man counts is much more vulnerable to the devastation that can be inflicted by a psyker than the immense numbers of imperial guard, mainly because damage from psykers has the potential to bypass the normal safeguards that make a marine far more durable than a guardsmen, just ask lysander ;)

librarians provide a potent countermeasure the the damage psykers can cause, also in this edition of the guard codex the Scholastia Psykana has returned to the battlefield in force :D

Lone-Wanderer
10-07-2010, 01:36
in this system every Inquistor is a psyker, but in the game system based off of them, Inquisitor, very few of them are psykers. Reason being is that system reflects more of how dangerous it is to use psychic powers.

metal bawks
12-07-2010, 12:51
I thought that most Inquisitors are psykers, but when I actually looked through the background material, I got mixed results:

Rogue Trader rulebook: Inquisitors have a 50% chance of being psykers.

2nd edition rulebook: Inquisitors can be upgraded to psykers.

3rd edition rulebook: no mention at all of Inquisitors having psychic powers.

5th edition rulebook: nothing.

Seed of Doubt, old 40k story: "Unlike many of his order, [Inquisitor] Valdez had no mindsight, no powers beyond other mortal men."

Inqusitor Rulebook: nothing is said about the number of psykers among the Inqusitors, but 2 out of 3 sample Inquisitors are psykers.

Hal'jin
12-07-2010, 13:00
And if you check Dark Heresy rulebook you'll see very few of those who are mentioned are actually psykers.

FrankieKhainor
12-07-2010, 17:12
Dark Eldar, Necrons, World Eaters and other followers of Khorne also don't use Psykers.


Forgive me if I'm wrong - my friend told me this - but aren't the dark eldar afraid of slaanesh and they do the evil stuff to keep her (yes, her - the eldar call slaanesh 'she who thirsts'. And the eldar are clever.) happy.

Necrons don't follow khorne.

Sorry if all these corrections are due to a misunderstanding of your phrasing


Now to reply to the thread.

I'd say that marines can make do without the librarius. They could use technology - flamers for the flamer attack power, teleporters for the gate thing, force fields for the invulnerable thing, etc, etc.

madd0ct0r
12-07-2010, 17:28
its the phrasing i think - world eaters and other followers of kohrne is a single complete cluase.


as for libby rules for a tech-lord = very commmon count as.

as for 'my chapter have no librarians' = very common but cliche fanfic.
have libby's they just don't need to go to every skirmish