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View Full Version : Do dwarfs always have to use gunline tactics?



Daemon Dave
05-07-2010, 21:30
Just starting a dwarf army and pretty much all advice given to me is to do a gunline list. With the new rules on movement, including charging i was thinking of a mobile army. This would march to the enemy and kick the **** out of them. Any dwarf players think this is a viable option?

bigcheese76
05-07-2010, 21:37
Im not to sure about within the 8th Ed rules, havnt seen them yet, but I do know dwarves.

A gunline does work, yes, but it doesnt have to be a gunline. Your dwarves are slow so some guns to support advancing troops are a really good idea. The unit I would use the most in a combat orientated army would be slayers, because once in combat, they arent going anywhere. Ironbreakers are good too. You will also need a descent sized core of Warriors and a couple of Thanes to aid combat where the fighting is thickest and perhaps a Dragon Slayer with Skalf Blackhammer to take out big stuff, or attract fire.

Ultimate Life Form
05-07-2010, 21:41
No, just like Undead don't have to use Magic.

Agoz
05-07-2010, 21:46
with stuff like strollaz's rune, and the anvil of doom, yes, you can make a fairly mobile dwarf army, and with 8th edition their charge range has increased a great deal, from 6" to 3+2d6 inches. Its still a good idea to take some supporting artillery, because the dwarves themselves aren't really all that killy, and they will almost always be outnumbered.

amysrevenge
05-07-2010, 23:26
I'm all about in-your-face Dwarfs.

I think that a good 2000-2500 sized Dwarf in-your-face army would have 2-4 warmachines, one moderately sized unit of Thunderers, one 19-strong unit of Quarrelers with great weapons (possibly Rangers) with a fighty character, and the rest of the points in big blocks of Warriors, Longbeards, Ironbreakers, Hammerers, and Slayers. I'd only line up the Thunderers and Quarrelers as 10-wide, and then only because it keeps all the models shooting all the time.

Miners are an option, of course (and a good one to combine with Rangers to really take the fight to the other side of the table). An Anvil can help get you there faster, but I personallly don't care for it for a number of reasons, the prime one being its point cost. Strollaz is good, but then your BSB is pretty fragile.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong and we'll work out some other way to do in-your-face Dwarfs. Perhaps the opposite of what I said will be the end result. Who knows?

w3rm
05-07-2010, 23:38
Rune of Slowness is also awesome. -d6" to your opponents charge is huge! Plus you can take lots of cheap units of Miners and Slayers.

Sygerrik
05-07-2010, 23:45
short answer no
long answer noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Dwarves' biggest problem has always been inability to get the charge and low I, meaning that often your front rank would be wiped and your elite troops wouldn't be able to strike back. NOT ANYMORE! Dwarf infantry is great, and since your Ld is super high, having a BSB and a bunch of ranks is basically unbreakable (rerollable stubborn Ld 9 on core troops). Dwarf horde units are great!

Am I saying you should play with no ranged support? No. Dwarves have excellent guns and to avoid using them is foolish. But you can play infantry-heavy now and not get reamed.

UberBeast
06-07-2010, 00:17
I had a dwarf army try an all infantry, no shooting units assault on my DE force once. They used some special item that allowed them a free move and advanced en-masse toward me. I simply surrounded them with fast units and hit them on nearly every flank in one giant turn of charging. The dwarf player quit on the 4th turn.

jet_palero
06-07-2010, 02:00
Just starting a dwarf army and pretty much all advice given to me is to do a gunline list. With the new rules on movement, including charging i was thinking of a mobile army. This would march to the enemy and kick the **** out of them. Any dwarf players think this is a viable option?

Oath stones can be very helpful in this sort of army, because you'll inevitably get surrounded once you push far enough forward.

Sparowl
06-07-2010, 05:31
Back when I was playing Dwarves, a wonderful gentlemen by the name of Dark Dwarves wrote a tactica with the idea of a dwarf army based on warriors rather then shooting. Here's a link to his tactica:
Dark Dwarves' Tactica (http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/tutorials/category/11-warhammer-6-5th-ed/)

HeroFox
06-07-2010, 06:22
Dwarves can play a all-out charge across the field strategy.. it's just that by design, they're not as good as some of the other factions. They're more or less the shoot 'em up and charge when they close army.

Now in 8th Ed and Dwarves having a charging range of 5-15", you can definitely play a charging Dwarf army with Strollaz rune.

The entire army marching towards you as the game begins.. well.. scares the living hell out of most opponents. Army-wide T4 is a damn blessing in this game.

danny-d-b
06-07-2010, 06:43
nope you don't have to do a gun line- I used to run a fairly ballanced army when I played dwarfs and had about a 60% win ratio with something along the lines of
Dwarf lord with shield bearers and GW, stone and challange
rune smith with ballance and 'scroll'
BSB with 1+ re-rollable armour save
25 warriors (with rune smith)
15 longbeard with stoicism and the cheapist banner rune
15 longbeards with stoicism (and BSB)
10 thunders
10 quarrlers
8 miners
16 hammers (with dwarf lord)
2 bolt thowers
gyro
organ

as you can see a farirly blannaced list, 4 big blocks with support

Ramius4
06-07-2010, 06:58
As I posted in another thread, I've massacred 3 out of 4 opponents with the army below using 8th edition rules so far. Not a single ranged weapon in the army. ;) The 30 Iron Breakers are just too damn hard for people to get rid of before the other units come in to scrape the enemy off of them.

2244 Points

268 Lord (goes with Iron Breakers) with Oathstone
Shield
Rune of Resistance
Rune of Stone
Master Rune of Challenge
Rune of the Furnace
Rune of Might
Rune of Fire

147 Runesmith
Shield
Master Rune of Balance
Rune of Spellbreaking

145 Battle Standard Bearer
Strollaz rune

215 15 Miners with command
Steam drill

215 15 Miners with command
Steam drill

470 30 Iron Breakers with command
Rune of Determination x2
Ancestor Rune

250 25 Warriors with command and shields

250 25 Warriors with command and shields

295 19 Longbeards with command and shields
Master Rune of Grungni on banner

rocdocta
06-07-2010, 07:30
but the question begs...why would you not? i mean especially with the new init strike order...just take great weapon quarrellers.

take blocks of 20 10x2 and fire everyone at them. thats 20 shots stand and shoot at anyone.

or

take blocks of 30 plus like i am doing 12x3! 24 shots stand and shoot should thin out the high init things. Plus...whatever hits the dwarves will get a lot of ws 4 str 6 attacks back in their face!! lets say 60 swordsmen 5x12 charge 36 quarrellers. besides the fact that every stone thrower etc will be targetting it...lets just say they get into charge range with only 1 round of crossbow fire otherwise un molested.

Fire!
24 *1/2 =12 hit * 2/3 wound = 8 wounds = 7 dead.

Charge! Stand and shoot reaction.
24 shots hit on 5s =8 hits = 2/3 wound = 6 at -1 save. 5 dead.

1st round
Emp init 4 go first
36 attacks * 1/2 = 18 * 1/3 = 6*2/3 = 4 dead dwarves.
Dwarves
32 attacks * 1/2 = 16 * 5/6= 13 dead humans

2nd round
Emp init 4 go first
35 attacks * 1/2 = 18 * 1/3 = 6*2/3 = 4 dead dwarves
Dwarves
28 attacks * 1/2 = 14 * 5/6= 12 dead humans

3rd round
Emp init 4 go first
23 attacks * 1/2 = 12 * 1/3 = 4*2/3 = 3 dead dwarves
Dwarves
25 attacks * 1/2 = 13 * 5/6= 11 dead humans

4th round
Emp init 4 go first
12 attacks * 1/2 = 6 * 1/3 = 2*2/3 = 2 dead dwarves
Dwarves
22 attacks * 1/2 = 11 * 5/6= 11 dead humans

i suppose what i am trying to ham fistedly show is that if you want a jack of all trades and still a master of lots, 36 GW quarrellers 12 wide are great. they arent goint to move much anyway.

Novrain
06-07-2010, 07:41
GW quarellers are kinda expensive tho.

I have been looking at 40man (dwarf?) hordes made up of GW warriors. Fairly cheap (for dwarves anyways) and still killy....

HeroFox
06-07-2010, 07:44
@Ramius4
I would love to challenge that list you hairy oaf.

ooglatjama
06-07-2010, 07:52
I had a dwarf army try an all infantry, no shooting units assault on my DE force once. They used some special item that allowed them a free move and advanced en-masse toward me. I simply surrounded them with fast units and hit them on nearly every flank in one giant turn of charging. The dwarf player quit on the 4th turn.

One time my marauder horsemen threw some axes and it caused a chain panic that ended up causing the general and a deathstar to run away. I guess because of my one time experience WOC are a good indication of how they should play. I guess combat WOC isn't as good as shooty WOC!

Sinsigel
06-07-2010, 08:32
I guess combat WOC isn't as good as shooty WOC!

You must be joking.;)

lycanthought
06-07-2010, 08:34
Can a non-gunline Dwarf army work? YES, most definitely as long as you build it right.

First point - you can never get rid of all your guns - Dwarves have no magic and some things (dark elf lords on dragons for example) are to hard to get rid of with troop blocks and just begging to have flaming cannonballs dropped on them. (Also, firing at cavalry with an organ gun or thunderers at close range is about the most fun you can have...)

Second point - Support. With dwarves (never dwarfs, never!) you can't hope to control the whole table as you don't have the numbers or the speed. However the anvil of doom can help with this, you can use it to reposition your units or (far more usefully in the early turns) to stop your opponents fast units doing what they want (and maybe do them some damage too although this should be seen as a bonus rather than a goal)

Third point - formation. If you pile in with a dwarven combat force it WILL be outflanked. You are slow and few. But you have the tools to deal with this - Ironbreakers with an oathstone, Hammerers with a Lord and big blocks of slayers will all laugh at flanking units. Keep your units tight together with these units occupying key positions.

Fourth point - deployment. You can't just rush up the middle of the board. You can however rush up one side of the board. With strollaz rune you can reach the half way line with 5 or 6 units on turn one and be in combat turn two.

Fifth point - Miners - they're a PITA for war machines on the enemy side - take a few

So, in summary, bunch up, rush forwards and aim to take out one end of your opponents line before he can regroup. position your anvil and small shooting force where they can harry the units that are trying to flank you use your stubborn and unbreakable units to hold the inside corner of your force. Oh, and make your your slayers are under the cover of the master rune of grungi.

Remember that nine times out of ten your opponent will be expecting a gunline and may well have forgotten that standard dwarven warriors are actually really good in combat. Especially in eighth with double handed weapons. There's no excuse now for not using them across the whole army.

Here's a 3000 point list I crushed some dark elves with recently:

20 TROLLSLAYERS
GIANT SLAYER
STANDARD


20 TROLLSLAYERS
GIANT SLAYER
STANDARD


1 DRAGON SLAYER


1 RUNELORD
RUNE OF PRESERVATION
MASTER RUNE OF GROMRIL
GREAT WEAPON
ANVIL OF DOOM
RUNE OF SPELLBREAKING

1 DWARF LORD 1 - ARMY GENERAL
SHIELDBEARERS
GREAT WEAPON
MASTER RUNE OF CHALLENGE
RUNE OF STONE
RUNE OF THE FURNACE
RUNE OF RESISTANCE

23 HAMMERERS
VETERAN
SHIELDS
STANDARD
MASTER RUNE OF GRUNGI
MUSICIAN

1 ARMY STANDARD
RUNE OF COURAGE
STROLLAZ RUNE

20 LONGBEARDS
SHIELDS
STANDARD
RUNE OF STOICISM
MUSICIAN

1 CANNON
RUNE OF BURNING
RUNE OF FORGING

20 LONGBEARDS
GREAT WEAPONS
SHIELDS
STANDARD
RUNE OF COURAGE
MUSICIAN

24 WARRIORS
SHIELDS
VETERAN
STANDARD
MUSICIAN

15 RANGERS
SHIELDS
GREAT WEAPONS
STANDARD
MUSICIAN

8 MINERS

The rangers were a waste of time and should have been a larger number of quarrelers

Baboon
06-07-2010, 08:41
You must be joking.;)

i would go get your sarcasam detector checked.. it my be on the fritz. :p

Flash Felix
06-07-2010, 11:57
Up until 7th, it seems that gunline was the best way to go, as horrible as that might be. There are four phases in Warhammer, and Dwarves were only good at one of them;

Movement: Even worse than M3 for Dwarves was that we have no fast cavalry, no heavy cavalry, no skirmishers, no mobile monsters, a single (Rare) flying unit and a scout unit that was ranked up and moved at 1.5 inches through forests. Strollaz Rune, Anvil of Doom and miners were poor substitutes for the inability to force your battle plan onto the enemy by movement.

Magic: Enough said.... We have some of the best magic defence in the game, but that doesn't win games. It might (with luck) prevent a loss, but again, defence doesn't allow Dwarf players to impose their plan on the enemy. Defence is not decisive.

Combat: Dwarves were meant to rock here, but generally didn't. Not getting the charge and low Initiative meant Dwarves usually struck last. Increasingly awesome enemy units(Swordmasters, Black Guard, Blood Knights, Chaos Knights, Hydra etc) meant that often a dwarf unit would lose its whole front rank and die before fighting at all. Combat was not that great for most Dwarves. And if you were sure that you might win? Often your opponent refused to engage, and you lacked the movement to force this. The MRoChallenge helped, but one single-use rune only goes so far.

So that only really left shooting..... Hence the gunline.

Now, a lot of this has changed, in particular movement and combat. We still don't move that well; I wouldn't bank on that 15" charge much if I was you. But a 10" charge range on average is a big improvement. Extra reforms and looser wheeling rules will have more of an effect on us too.

But it's in combat that Dwarves will start to shine. Still not as flash as Warriors and Daemons, but I think most other opponents will learn to fear a block of GW wielding Dwarves. Removing casualties from the back is huge, as we strike last in most cases anyway. This means we might as well pick up those Great Weapons that damn near every Dwarf can get, and once you do some maths, you'll see that they will rock. Combat Dwarves are now workable, and look like they'll be the awesome fighters they were meant to be in the background.

You'll still need some war machines to soften your foes, to force them to engage or risk templates and cannon-balls for the whole game (with TLoS, no hiding that dragon). But these should be supporting only, allowing your 3-4 blocks of solid infantry to smash the bejeezus out of someone who sorely needs it.

So, in summary, whoever said gunlines were the only way is still stuck in 7th edition. 8th is a new game, and in this one, the GW Warrior beats the Thunderer, hands down. Combat, supported by shooting, is the way to go.

Temakador
06-07-2010, 11:58
in 2k then if your not going for a gunline would you get a combat lord or the avil of doom?
Allso my idea is that have 2 blocks of 10by2 GW armed quarrellers is nice the gunline approach that can still kick your **** in hand to hand yet ofc your not going to be moving around much so you just sit shoot the enemy unitl they charge then make them bounce off you i do like this idea of a gunline

Memnos
06-07-2010, 12:21
There are a few potential Dwarf builds:

The Dwarf first turn charge - Strollaz rune, Bugman and 2 units of Rangers(Due to Bugman allowing a second one) means you can set up the Dwarfs 12 inches from the enemy.

12 inches away. Strollaz rune is set up behind them, but within range. They advance 6 inches. Their turn: Make a free reform(With LD 9 rerollable, due to the battle standard being close, should be okay.) Move forward 6 inches on the flank. Use the Anvil of Doom to charge forward 2d6+3, or roughly 10 inches. That's a direct charge on the flank, first turn. If you think you'll get it, that's a guaranteed first turn charge. In the flank. With Dwarfs.

Daemon Dave
06-07-2010, 15:23
Awesome. Thank you for the advice.going to do a list and post it

Ramius4
06-07-2010, 18:25
@Ramius4
I would love to challenge that list you hairy oaf.

Well that is a challenge I would accept if I thought that you were one;)

Any idiot can build a list to take on another if they already know what's in it... If you didn't know it was coming, I'd put odds on me to roll your army (whatever that may be) like the bums they are.

HeroFox
06-07-2010, 18:37
You mad man?

I was merely poking fun because I play High Elves :P

And I would still play that with my all-comers list.

Ramius4
06-07-2010, 18:59
You mad man?

I was merely poking fun because I play High Elves :P

And I would still play that with my all-comers list.

No, I'm not mad at all. Just poking fun back:p

After all, half the fun is talking trash to the opponent before the game about all the horrible things you're going to do to them. And then of course during the game, having those very same horrible things done to you instead;)

PS. Never take any insults from me as personal or angry comments. It's all light hearted in nature. Not always easy to convey over the internet.

shartmatau
06-07-2010, 19:04
I'm really looking forward to combat dwarves. I've been playing combat dwarves on and off for a few years and while they could do well in 7th it really did take a lot more effort than most armies. Which frankly made it a fun challenge for me as the general but these new rules really seem to help out the dwarves (and other armies as well). Fantasy will hopefully become fun again instead of the grueling matches I got sick of in 7th.

theorox
06-07-2010, 19:11
30 Warriors with GW, 25 or so Longbeards (GW or shields), a unit of Ironbrakers+Hammerers, a Cheapish Lord, Anvil, a BSB and maybe some fighty Thanes, plus a couple of Warmachines and maybe Strollaz. That is 2500 points quite easily.

Packs some good punch! :D

Theo

lethlis
08-07-2010, 09:29
Packs some good punch! :D

Theo

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DONT DRINK THE PUNCH

Dwarves now only assault 2 inches less than elves, think about that. GO COMBAT Dwarves

Gunlines are good but with the way shooting works now you get more shots yes but they close faster, on top of that there is more terrain on the table, and thus more cover shooting reductions

AngryAngel
08-07-2010, 16:20
You don't have to play a gunline, however its much cheaper money wise to play a gun line. Hence I try and put as many boots on the ground as I can but big Dwarf units of stuff like iron breakers and hammers cost alot.

However to get some warriors, thunderers, some cannons and even a pair of bolt throwers. Doesn't cost so much. That with some miners as they seem like the lettuce of Dwarves, they come with everything.

Temakador
08-07-2010, 20:10
is the anvil of doom worth it in a non- gun line set up though
i do love that first charge idea though that sounds like an complete laugh when your enemy sees that he got flanked charged turn 1 by dwarfs with GW and WS5 S4
but the avil is 315 pts without any upgrades is it worth it if you plan to get to grips with the enemy not just sit back and blast then hope????

Malorian
08-07-2010, 20:12
Dwarfs will be best when they take the best of both worlds.

Here is my current 3K list:

Rune lord w/ anvil of doom, shield, ro spell breaking X3
Dwarf lord w/ shield bearers, master rune of smiting, 2X rune of cleaving, shield
BSB Thane
Dragon slayer
Dragon slayer

40 warriors w/ FC, great weapons
22 thunderers w/ shields, banner, musician
20 quarrellers

20 miners w/ full comand, steam drill
20 hammerers w/ full command, shield
grudge thrower w/ rune of penetrating
cannon w/ rune of burning

Flame cannon
organ gun
organ gun

T: 2996

jet_palero
09-07-2010, 00:42
Dwarfs will be best when they take the best of both worlds.

Here is my current 3K list:

Rune lord w/ anvil of doom, shield, ro spell breaking X3
Dwarf lord w/ shield bearers, master rune of smiting, 2X rune of cleaving, shield
BSB Thane
Dragon slayer
Dragon slayer

40 warriors w/ FC, great weapons
22 thunderers w/ shields, banner, musician
20 quarrellers

20 miners w/ full comand, steam drill
20 hammerers w/ full command, shield
grudge thrower w/ rune of penetrating
cannon w/ rune of burning

Flame cannon
organ gun
organ gun

T: 2996

You forgot a unit of longbeard rangers with great weapons and throwing axes. Killy central and surprises the heck out of your opponent the first time.

"wait, why are you putting those twenty guys there."
"Throwing axes are strength WHAT?"
"What do you mean you can stand and shoot at that range!"

good to team them up with miners too.



is the anvil of doom worth it in a non- gun line set up though
i do love that first charge idea though that sounds like an complete laugh when your enemy sees that he got flanked charged turn 1 by dwarfs with GW and WS5 S4
but the avil is 315 pts without any upgrades is it worth it if you plan to get to grips with the enemy not just sit back and blast then hope????


I've yet to use my anvil in a game. Most of my games so far have been 1500 points, and its just way too big to really bring it in that. I'm also interested to see if it gets hit by any errata.