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Kallas
06-07-2010, 10:34
This is a rough draft for my undead hoard in the making, any pointers?

New draft a few posts down

Lords

Vampire lord (305)
Bloodline powers: Beguile, Avatar of Death, Master of the Black arts
Magic Items: Helm of commandment

Heros

Vampire (125)
Bloodline powers: Dread knight

Necromancer (95)
Necromancy spell: Vanhelís Danse Macabre, Invocation of Nehek
Magic Item: Dispel scroll

Necromancer (75)
Necromancy spell: Invocation of Nehek
Magic Item: Power stone

Necromancer (55)
Necromancy spell: Invocation of Nehek

Core

Corpse cart (100) [doesnít count towards core limit]
Unit Upgrades: unholy lodestone

Corpse cart (100) [doesnít count towards core limit]
Unit Upgrades: unholy lodestone

20 Zombies: standard bearer and musician (92)

20 Zombies: standard bearer and musician (92)

20 Skeletons: spears and shields, full command group (200)

20 Skeletons: spears and shields, full command group (200)

10 Dire Wolves (80) [doesnít count to limit]

Special

14 Grave Guard (257)
Unit upgrades: Great weapons replacing shields and full command group.
Magic Item: Banner of the Barrows

6 Black knights (233)
Unit upgrades: Barding and full command group.
Magic Items: Banner of the Dead Legion

Rare

N/A

Total: 1991

LordNessus
06-07-2010, 20:36
Seems overall very solid. Only thing I can really say is that the black knights for as much as they cost dont really pull their own weight. Maybe put a necromancer or two in the corpse carts.

NitrosOkay
06-07-2010, 21:16
My opinions

The Vampire Lord is awfully squishy. Just a four plus armour save? Give him some sort of ward save. If he dies you've lost the game. Plus you've configured him as a close combat lord with beguile and avatar of death, then given him an item for someone not seeing close combat. Throw the helm on a Vampire hiding in the back.

Two corpse carts seems overkill at 2K. Yes you get +2 to summons but at the cost of 200 points of something that doesn't fight well and whose bound spells don't stack well.

I would toss the 40 Zombies for 20 more skeletons to beef up your two units to 30 strong. Zombies are way too easy to get during the game and pop up where you need a tarpit.

You want larger units for Skeletons since if they get wiped out in a single round of combat (possible now) you can't raise them back. I'm not sold on spears since the 5+ armour AND a 6+ ward in close combat makes them better at the tarpit role they're designed for. Five extra attacks at strength 3 isn't really going to do much and it costs you more points. If you're 30 strong and in Horde formation you'll get those attacks anyway with hand weapon and shield. You might also want a Vampire with Lord of the Dead to increase the size of the skeleton units in the first few turns.

Grave Guard unit is great but too small. You need ablative wounds to make certain you get your full 11 attacks that hit on 2's and wound on 2's.

The Black Knight unit is also unlikely to do much at that size. You need an extra rank now to disrupt your opponent's supporting ranks and rank bonuses. They should be 12 strong or not included at all. Unit Strength also no longer exists so the Banner of the Dead Legion technically no longer does anything.

You really ought to get a Wight King Battle Standard Bearer, or make your Dread Knight bear the Battle Standard. It reduces crumbling wounds and with the new rules allows you to re-roll ALL leadership tests. If you take the Crown of the Damned on your lord for a 4+ ward you can RE-ROLL his stupidity test. 97% chance of passing.

Finally consider a rare choice.

Wraiths are great against anyone who forgot their magic weapons at home and for a scare factor to make them place all their magic weapons in one place. Varghulfs add much needed killing power. Black Coaches suck up power dice and act as a magic defence that also tarpits things extremely well.

The last two also have the Vampire Rule and help you maneuver your army so it isn't forced to all sit right on top of your Vampire Lord.

Kallas
07-07-2010, 08:29
Lots to consider it seems, trust me to not think of the free zombies though.

Should I swap the black knights for blood knights? I planned to have them if I hit 3k points to have a cavelry arm to the army (hence the dread knight).

Will defo take on this (even if it means less zombie peasant converting) and gears are turning about a proper support vamp... (thanks guys)

NitrosOkay
07-07-2010, 09:45
Lots to consider it seems, trust me to not think of the free zombies though.

Should I swap the black knights for blood knights? I planned to have them if I hit 3k points to have a cavelry arm to the army (hence the dread knight).

Will defo take on this (even if it means less zombie peasant converting) and gears are turning about a proper support vamp... (thanks guys)

I don't know about Blood Knights in 8th.

They cause a tremendous amount of casualties on a charge yes. Their cost is ridiculously prohibitive though.

Consider that it's not feasible to have them in two ranks where they'll actually break enemy rank bonuses on a flank charge. Their chance of breaking a large, ranked up unit is low.

Also consider that everything strikes in initiative order now and Blood Knights are only initiative 4. You'll have to babysit them with Vanhel's instead of raising your army back up.

Consider how many more power dice are flying around for lots of armies now, and how vulnerable Blood Knights are to magic missiles.

Black Knights might well be your better bet for a cavalry arm these days.

Kallas
07-07-2010, 10:04
Currently drafting the revisted list atm, gonna keep the knights to justify having finished my dread knight conversion and wanting to use him.

Thinking a battle standard/ helm of commandment combo on hellsteed would be handy so i can move the vamp to where the effects are best...

Here it is @ 2002 points

Lords

Vampire lord (300)
Bloodline powers: Avatar of Death, Master of the Black arts, Lord of Dead
Magic Items: Crown of the Damned

Heros

Vampire (125)
Bloodline powers: Dread knight

Vampire (220)
Bloodline powers: Lord of Dead
Magic items: Helm of Commandment, Wristbands of Black Gold
Mount: Hellsteed
Battle standard bearer

Necromancer (155)
Necromancy spell: Invocation of Nehek
Magic Item: Dispel scroll
Mount: Corpse cart

Core

30 Skeletons: hand weapon and shields, full command group (260)

30 Skeletons: hand weapon and shields, full command group (260)

10 Dire Wolves (80) [doesnít count to limit]

Special

19 Grave Guard (322)
Unit upgrades: Great weapons replacing shields and full command group.
Magic Item: Banner of the Barrows

10 Black knights (280)
Unit upgrades: full command group.

Now with meatier skellie blocks, an airbourne assist vamp, less squishy general and more knights (my dread knight is in plog to show why it's 10 knights not 11)...

Sanguine
07-07-2010, 13:11
@Kallas

This may sound "cheesy" and unfair, but have you considered fielding the absolute minimum of core units you need (250pts in this case), and using those spare points to buy special and rare choices. You can always buy lots of zombies and raise them in battle if needs be.

LuitpoldFrohlich
07-07-2010, 13:36
25% of 2000 is 500, so beyond dropping the Dire Wolves, there's not much trimming to be done there.

As for the Black Knights, since you need at least two full ranks to break enemy ranks, I would either run them larger than 10 so they can absorb some damage, or run them as two small units meant to cause as many casualties without concerning myself with breaking ranks.

Sanguine
07-07-2010, 13:45
Ahh sorry thats my mistake of doing math in my head :p

As with black knights I always feel it's better to have a wight king with them so they can all benefit from etherial movement.

Kallas
07-07-2010, 14:08
Yep however with the dread knight and his black knights I should come clean with the fact he [the vamp and his rather large horse] was simply too big for one cav stand, so after some local gw debate :shifty:, he's on 2 cav stands.

So he's taking up a huge chunk of rank to look nice, to balance this in fairness, he'll only ever be a stock vamp with dread knight. So the 10 knights and vamp do actually make up the ranks at the expense of an attack. Dunno whether this is still cheesy or not, but it was so I could use my vamp and he still be in base contact on all sides.

My view is, I made the [blood]sucker, so I'm gonna use him even if I've hamstrung the unit somewhat, tis fair in my book.

The skelies cover my core requirements but hoping the new book lets me hide the knights behind them (doubt it but hey fast expendable distraction).

Also I already got 20 zombies plogged, and now dropped from list so gonna indeed try to 'suprise zombie fight' the enemy...

NitrosOkay
07-07-2010, 17:57
That seems much improved. I think the Vampire Lord could benefit from a killy weapon of some sort if you can shave points somewhere.

Kallas
08-07-2010, 08:23
Doubt there is any shaving to do. With the lord, I think unless I drop the dire wolves to 8 and look for something on the new common items list... I'll have to make do with the buffed up grave guard getting the corpse cart effects and my assist vamp's ws6 (and the +1 to hit from unit banner) to do the damage when the lord is in combat. But if there's a suitably killy 15pt magic weapon in the new rulebook I'll snap it up.

Spenny121
08-07-2010, 14:12
Looks good!