PDA

View Full Version : Warhammer 20k



barrangas
06-07-2010, 17:19
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Dark Age of Technology happened mid 20k. I had the idea creating a version of of 40k before the Emperor. What would existing armies look like that were around at that time? What armies would there be that is unique during that time?

The forces of Terra that would make Space Marines look like they are from the stone age. Eldar at their height, before the fall. Orks that were organized and intelligent. The thinking machines rising up against humanity. I'd like to get some input on what others think it might be like. I figure it should be pretty grimdark as you know everything's going to collapse.

x-esiv-4c
06-07-2010, 17:34
You'd have the Terrawatt clan running around making a mess of things right?

barrangas
06-07-2010, 17:37
You'd have the Terrawatt clan running around making a mess of things right?

:confused: I have no idea what you mean.

Green-is-best
06-07-2010, 17:37
On one hand, I don't think there is enough background to really ground it in the fluff, since the DAoT is supposed to be a time of myth and legend.

On the other hand, this means you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Kage2020
06-07-2010, 17:39
Dune: Butlerian Jihad the Roleplaying Game? Or just Transhuman Space? ;)

Kage

barrangas
06-07-2010, 17:45
On one hand, I don't think there is enough background to really ground it in the fluff, since the DAoT is supposed to be a time of myth and legend.

On the other hand, this means you can do pretty much whatever you want.

That's one of the reasons I think it would be worth doing? There are some things people expect like Eldar, Orcs, and revolting robots. On the other hand fans have free reign to come up with new and interesting stuff. It wouldn't be like doing a Warhammer 30k suppliment which would largely affect Marines and the Xenos that weren't around at the time (Nids, Necrons, and Tau).

massey
06-07-2010, 18:33
If I were to write it, a lot of people would complain. The "real" history of Warhammer 20K would be a lot different than what the Imperium believes it to be (and different than what the Eldar believe it to be, as well). You remember those kids from Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome? "It's Pocsaclypse! Then Captain Walker came, to take us to the high scrapers, and they said bye-de-bye. We don't need the knowing, we can live here." That's basically the version of history that the Imperium and the Eldar follow. Half-remembered myths and legends, with Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer helping George Washington cross the Delaware River, and then Superman flew all the Jews out of Egypt. So if I was going to make a Warhammer 20K, it would be barely recognizable as a pre-40K world. Eldar wouldn't look any different from Vulcans, or Minbari, or any other generic Star Trek race. Orks? You should see what they looked like before the gene-bomb of the 26th millennium. It would be completely different, with only a few winks and hints as far as what was to come.

Green-is-best
06-07-2010, 18:51
Isn't 20k in the living memory of the Eldar? Eldrad was already a Farseer in the year 30k and that's not exactly a young man's occupation. Certainly spirits in the infinity circuit would recall 20k.

Tonberry
06-07-2010, 19:20
:confused: I have no idea what you mean.

The Terrawatt clan were The Emperor's techno-barbarians, the precursors to the space marines.

However I think they're more an Age of Strife thing, around 28k.

Karl MkVI
06-07-2010, 19:44
If I were to write it, a lot of people would complain. The "real" history of Warhammer 20K would be a lot different than what the Imperium believes it to be (and different than what the Eldar believe it to be, as well). You remember those kids from Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome? "It's Pocsaclypse! Then Captain Walker came, to take us to the high scrapers, and they said bye-de-bye. We don't need the knowing, we can live here." That's basically the version of history that the Imperium and the Eldar follow. Half-remembered myths and legends, with Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer helping George Washington cross the Delaware River, and then Superman flew all the Jews out of Egypt. So if I was going to make a Warhammer 20K, it would be barely recognizable as a pre-40K world. Eldar wouldn't look any different from Vulcans, or Minbari, or any other generic Star Trek race. Orks? You should see what they looked like before the gene-bomb of the 26th millennium. It would be completely different, with only a few winks and hints as far as what was to come.

"genebomb of the 26th millennium"? what? I admit; you've lost me. not only on this, but also; why would Orks and Eldar look any different? evolution isn't that quick...

massey
06-07-2010, 20:44
Isn't 20k in the living memory of the Eldar? Eldrad was already a Farseer in the year 30k and that's not exactly a young man's occupation. Certainly spirits in the infinity circuit would recall 20k.

My understanding is that Eldrad is about as old as they get, and he's dead now. So no, you wouldn't have any running around that remembered the 20th millennium. And spirits in the infinity circuit? They aren't that old either. There weren't craftworlds back then. Anybody who might theoretically remember would have been an old man by the time the craftworlds left, and who knows how good grandpa's memory is at this point. Besides, the questions that younger eldar ask are going to be based upon their expectations and understanding. To go back to the Mad Max well, he tries to tell the kids about life before everything ended.


This ain't one body's story.
It's the story of us all.

We got it mouth-to-mouth.
You got to listen it and 'member.

'Cause what you hears today
you got to tell the birthed tomorrow.

I'm looking behind us now. . .

. . .across the count of time. . .

. . .down the long haul,
into history back.

I sees the end what were the start.

It's Pox-Eclipse, full of pain!

And out of it were birthed
crackling dust and fearsome time.

It were full-on winter. . .

. . .and Mr. Dead chasing them all.

But one he couldn't catch.
That were Captain Walker.

He gathers up a gang, takes to the air
and flies to the sky!

So they left their homes,
said bidey-bye to the high-scrapers. . .

. . .and what were left of the knowing,
they left behind.

Some say the wind just stoppered.

Others reckon it were a gang
called Turbulence.

And after the wreck. . .

. . .some had been jumped by Mr. Dead. . .

. . .but some had got the luck,
and it leads them here.

One look and they's got the hots for it.
They word it "Planet Earth. "

And they says, "We don't need
the knowing. We can live here. "

"We don't need the knowing.
We can live here. "

Time counts and keeps counting.

They gets missing what they had.

They get so lonely for the
high-scrapers and the video.

And they does the pictures so they'd
'member all the knowing that they lost.

'Member this?

Tomorrow-morrow Land!

'Member this?

The River of Light!

'Member this?

Skyraft!

'Member this?

Captain Walker!

'Member this?

Mrs. Walker!

Then Captain Walker picked them
of an age and good for a long haul.

They counted twenty, and that were them.
The great leaving.

"Rescue party departed
at first light. . .

. . .Ied by Flight Captain G.L. Walker. "

"May God have mercy on our souls. "

They said bidey-bye to them
what they'd birthed.

And from the nothing
they looked back. . .

. . .and Captain Walker hollered,
"Wait, one of us will come. "

"Wait, one of us will come. "

And somebody did come.

Walker!

We's heartful to you,
Captain Walker.

We's ready now. Take us home.

That's what passes for a history lesson in the Eldar civilization. They've lost just as much as humanity has. They've fallen just as far. They're a bunch of refugees who just happen to live on a really nice cruise ship (kinda like the kids, who live in a nice little oasis in the desert). The fact that they're arrogant as can be doesn't mean they actually know what's going on.

Can they ask the ancient spirits what happened? Sure. This is Max's response:


There were places like these. Cities.

They were called cities.

They had lots of knowing.
They had skyscrapers. . .

. . .videos and they had the sonic.

Then this happened.

This Pox-Eclipse happened, and it's
finished. It isn't there anymore.

You got to understand
that this is home. . .

. . .and there's no Tomorrow Land. . .

. . .and I ain't Captain Walker.

Eldar are big on mythic cycles, interpreting the future through omens and prophecy. They understand everything through the lens of their old religions and fables. That's going to influence the questions they ask. So... even if there's a few eldar spirits out there who do remember the old days, when they were very young, you aren't going to get much more info out of them then those kids get out of Mad Max. Does he remember the time before? Yeah. And he can tell them things, but he can't make them understand the way it was. And that's even assuming they ask. They're far more likely to ask about great wars, about how Khaine fought Eldanesh, and other mythological stuff.

Imagine if a preacher got to ask Moses questions for half an hour. What do you think he would ask? He's going to ask about God. He's going to ask about leaving Egypt. He's going to ask about miracles. He's not going to ask for detailed factual questions about grain production in Egypt, or exactly what their harvest schedule was and how it coincided with the flooding of the Nile. He's not going to ask scientific questions. He's going to ask spiritual questions, questions that have meaning to him.


"genebomb of the 26th millennium"? what? I admit; you've lost me. not only on this, but also; why would Orks and Eldar look any different? evolution isn't that quick...

That's exactly the point. We've got zero idea what happened way back when. As far as Eldar looking different, they don't. They're advanced aliens with a stick up their ass and pointy ears. Vulcans it is. But 20,000 years has a way of changing the way people see them. Orks? That's the genebomb, of course. Whatever they looked like, some pseudo-science weapon could have made them turn into what we call orks. Maybe they were Klingons before, or the Gammorean Guard or something. We just don't know. There are no human records from that time. Orks don't keep records. The Eldar will sing you a song they learned in Sunday School (a knowingly and lovingly preserved song, of course). And the Tau just got here.

Kroot Lord
06-07-2010, 23:01
Ehm, aren't Orks (and their predecessors) and Eldar about 60 million years old, so those mere 20000 years are absolutely trivial to them?

baphomael
06-07-2010, 23:26
You'd have the Terrawatt clan running around making a mess of things right?

They would have been Age of Strife era (or, 'Old Night'), rather than the Dark Age of Technology. Along with all those other techno-barbarian tribes like the Nordafrik Conclaves, Hy-Brasil, Yndonesic Bloc etc.

Lord Asgul
06-07-2010, 23:30
I am really interested in this gene-bomb, where is it mentioned?

Green-is-best
06-07-2010, 23:31
What is a techno-barbarian anyway? Doesn't a barbarian imply some civilization to hassle? Sounds like everyone on 30k Terra was a barbarian.

Sir_Turalyon
06-07-2010, 23:40
Ehm, aren't Orks (and their predecessors) and Eldar about 60 million years old, so those mere 20000 years are absolutely trivial to them?

Yes, they are. Except Eldar were at height of their power, protected by powerful robot armies, but to busy enjoying life rather to start wars themselves - you eighter left them alone or was killed like a pest.

As for humans, majority of STC-equipped colonies used same weapons as in 40k - all these meltaguns, lasguns, Land Raiders and Leman Russes are relics of these times after all. Just expect rare relics like mashine spirit-driven tanks, plasma weapons and carprace armour to be commonplace; throw in primitive power armour in late stages. The Emperor was alive and active back then - he was the intellect behind warp drives and probably STCs; it is likely that some technologies he developed for crusade - like power armour or genetic research behind the marines - was beyond mankind's abilities in dark age, developed only thanks to Emperor's millenia of sciencistic experience during Dark Age, then millenia for research during Age of Strife.




What is a techno-barbarian anyway? Doesn't a barbarian imply some civilization to hassle? Sounds like everyone on 30k Terra was a barbarian.


Techno-barbarians are what the Imperium would be without Adeptus Mechanicus and Emperor - warlord domains preserving some advanced technologies and production means, without guiding purpose or organisation greater than taking more relic resources from each other. THE techno-barbarians on Earth were warlords fighting for remains of planet's resources, using armies of power-armoured human soldiers fighting with bolt pistols and chainswords. Not unlike Dark Ages, only with remains of STC technology / infrastructure instead of Roman.

Green-is-best
07-07-2010, 00:08
Techno-barbarians are what the Imperium would be without Adeptus Mechanicus and Emperor - primitive warlike countries preserving some advanced technologies and production means. THE techno-barbarians on Earth were warlords fighting for remains of planet's resources, using armies of power-armoured human soldiers fighting with bolt pistols and chainswords. Not unlike Dark Ages, only with remains of STC technology / infrastructure instead of Roman.

I understand what they are, but the term barbarian implies a civilization of some sort to be barbarous against. I suppose GW probably didn't think that far, since the term itself just sounds cool.

massey
07-07-2010, 00:09
Ehm, aren't Orks (and their predecessors) and Eldar about 60 million years old, so those mere 20000 years are absolutely trivial to them?

Says who? Some eldar song? Member this Captain Walker?

And that's what I meant. I'd make a lot of people mad if I were to write it.


I am really interested in this gene-bomb, where is it mentioned?

Sorry. Totally made up by me, just now. :) That was kind of my point. If I was to do a Warhammer 20K, I'd include all kinds of wild stuff. It would pretty much be a completely new setting, not just the same thing with different guns.

The idea of a gene-bomb was some sort of devolving weapon, that turned a civilization into a bunch of prehistoric mutant savages. Drop it on the USA and you've got 300 million mutant gorilla-cavemen running around. The idea is that the orks in 40K would be the remnants of some normal civilization.

baphomael
07-07-2010, 00:48
I understand what they are, but the term barbarian implies a civilization of some sort to be barbarous against. I suppose GW probably didn't think that far, since the term itself just sounds cool.

Barbarian is a subjective and often pejorative term for something seen as 'uncivilised'. Just look at the Greek origins of the world - it, simply, referred to anyone 'not Greek' - an onomatopoeic word representing the sound (bar bar bar) of an unfamilier language (similar to blah blah blah, in a sense barbarian means 'blahbarian').

In a sense, they could be termed 'techno-barbarians' through the eyes of the Imperium - being dubbed barbarians because of their ignorence to the Imperial Truth and the 'civilisation' of a united humanity.

Techno-barbarian doesnt necessarily mean that there must be a pre-unity civilisation the techno-barbarians acted 'barbarically' toward. I'd say is a post unity description of pre-unity Terran cultures.

Gen.Steiner
07-07-2010, 01:12
Says who? Some eldar song? Member this Captain Walker?

And that's what I meant. I'd make a lot of people mad if I were to write it.

I totally agree with you. To put this timeframe - M20 to M40, or 20,000 years - in perspective, this is what was going on on Earth 20,000 years ago (the year 18,000 BC): we were making ostrich-shell beads in Namibia and the domestic cat had just emerged. Writing? Nah. Numeracy? Naaaah. The greatest technological advancement of the time? Micro-blades made from flint and turned into a sawblade.

So... what great tales do you know from 20,000 years ago? What myths? What legends? Our knowledge of even Greece and Rome, of Persia and the ancient Chinese, of Carthage, Troy, or, hell, what was going on last week, is patchy and confused. Myth and truth overlap and blend; archaeologists are not infallible and often fall prey to misinterpretation of evidence.

Now position yourself as an archaeologist in a society where knowledge is dangerous and truth gets you killed. The reality is that in the year 20,000, there's every possibility that human civilisation could have collapsed, arisen, collapsed and arisen again.

It'll be very different to what we think it'd be like. A better name for most people's ideas would be "Mythgaming 40K"...

barrangas
07-07-2010, 01:27
A lot of this has been stated already but here are some of my thoughts:

Eldar in 40k could very well be scraping the bottom of the barrel. The equipment they make now could be what they can produce with what they've got. It doesn't mean they have rifles that shoot like Lascannons, but it could be that they had shuriken catapults that looks like some simple bracer with the ammo existing in a compressed dimensional space.

Orks, if I remember correctly, degenerated when they lost their Brainboyz. They could have existed as some highly militaristic and expansionist species. The best comparison I could make would be the Zentraedi from Macross/Robotech. They had a advisor breed of clones.

There are also a number of SF themes that get touched on in some armies but don't really go into them as seperate entities 40k . For instance, you could have Xenos inspired by Doctor Frankenstien turning other aliens into monsters. There can also be space vampires but I'm putting my foot down: THEY WILL NOT SPARKLE!!!

Hellebore
07-07-2010, 03:33
Says who? Some eldar song? Member this Captain Walker?


Says the 3rd person narrator of the Necron codex. Rather more objective than 'some eldar song'.

I don't think the eldar DO know they're 60 million years old. I doubt anyone does, except perhaps the guardians of the black library where much of the information the eldar have lost still resides.

There are things the people in 40k BELIEVE and there are things that HAPPENED. They don't always match up but the Old Ones and the history of the War in Heaven has far more objective information about it than just eldar song and prophecy.

EDIT:

In the 20th Millennium the orks would be no different. The brain boyz died out ages ago, inferred to be 60 million. In fact the orks in M20 were probably smaller and weedier than they are now due to the eldar dominion of the galaxy and their capacity to annihilate things to a great degree. The Void Spinner is an example of what I would imagine they'd do to orks - saturate the land in monofilament impregnated with wraithbone parasites/viruses etc that destroy all life, preventing the ork spore cycle from functioning.

Given what is described of the Golden Age (outside what insetting people BELIEVE about it) I would say that humanity was like Star Trek without the Federation. Lots of allied systems across the galaxy in those places the eldar didn't know/care about with good technologies. There were no tyranids or tau. There were H'rud but we don't know if there were kroot.

Humanity probably never encountered an actual eldar, rather their automated forces.

Hellebore

massey
07-07-2010, 03:53
Says the 3rd person narrator of the Necron codex. Rather more objective than 'some eldar song'.

I don't think the eldar DO know they're 60 million years old. I doubt anyone does, except perhaps the guardians of the black library where much of the information the eldar have lost still resides.

There are things the people in 40k BELIEVE and there are things that HAPPENED. They don't always match up but the Old Ones and the history of the War in Heaven has far more objective information about it than just eldar song and prophecy.


And I'd have zero problem interpreting that in whatever way I wanted. It looks like GW is planning to change the Necron background in the next book anyway. Hell, there's a good chance I'd make the Necrons into the remnants of the Iron Men. No Star Gods, no 60 million year hibernation, just good old human tech. The fact that these guys resemble some ancient Eldar myth about evil gods and soulless legions, well, that's coincidence.

Again, I said my vision of it would make people mad.

Hellebore
07-07-2010, 04:04
:confused: It didn't make me mad, it made me confused.

Because you aren't taking an unknown quantity and developing it in any way you see fit, you're taking something that has concrete information about it and then just rewriting it which is a far bigger and more significant difference.

If you had just said 'I'm going to retcon and redesign the foundation of 40k so that it fits what I want and ignore the background' then it's pretty obvious. But you made it sound like your vision could be just as valid due to the lack of evidence, which is incorrect.

Iron men are imo a little over done. That type of setting is catered to by the terminator/matrix/galactica type franchises. I would prefer something different in the event that such a thing was redone.

Say, a warp entity centered around technical advancement uses data daemons to set up cults of the machine and thus the roots of the admech are actually in a daemontek company that builds mortal vessels for warp creatures. The human world's technology then attempts to fuse with and consume them as daemonic robots run rampant. The champions of Technobob get to be built into titans etc. Technology is then seen to be as much warp magic as daemons.

Something a little different than just 'human-made robots rebel and kill their masters'.

In some background I wrote regarding the 60 million year gap between the war in heaven and now I explored these kinds of possibilites sans humans. I find it more interesting without humans because they're in so many things. Over saturated market. As part of that I had a small pacifist ork culture during the time the brain boyz were still alive.

Hellebore

barrangas
07-07-2010, 04:27
In the 20th Millennium the orks would be no different. The brain boyz died out ages ago, inferred to be 60 million. In fact the orks in M20 were probably smaller and weedier than they are now due to the eldar dominion of the galaxy and their capacity to annihilate things to a great degree. The Void Spinner is an example of what I would imagine they'd do to orks - saturate the land in monofilament impregnated with wraithbone parasites/viruses etc that destroy all life, preventing the ork spore cycle from functioning.

Given what is described of the Golden Age (outside what insetting people BELIEVE about it) I would say that humanity was like Star Trek without the Federation. Lots of allied systems across the galaxy in those places the eldar didn't know/care about with good technologies. There were no tyranids or tau. There were H'rud but we don't know if there were kroot.

Humanity probably never encountered an actual eldar, rather their automated forces.

Hellebore

Do you remember where you read about the Brainboyz? I ask because I figure it would be useful to read up on. I personally wouldn't mind not having Orks as a major force, but they are liked by other people and they were mentioned as fighting in the War of Heaven, so I'd imagine they'd be more then the occassional pocket. I'd want to do something different with them then already exists in 40k.

I'd imagine that humanity was a bit more cohesive. I'd have to imagine that the Iron Men wouldn't have been as big of a threat if technology wasn't standard through out. Also the Dark Age wouldn't have been as devestating if it was so fractured.

As for the Eldar they might not have been as wide spread as humans and orks due to things like slow or negative population growth and boredom with territorial expansion. I could see Eldar going to battle the same way the same way a hunter would chase a fox (robots would be the hounds) but not having a desire to go to war.

Hellebore
07-07-2010, 04:45
I say that because it is inferred although not stated that the Old Ones may have been the brainboyz. Considering that the orks are an old one creation according to the Necron codex, any genetic modification would have been produced by Old Ones and as Brain Boyz were supposed to have built the genetic memory into the orks it would follow that they are old ones who built them.

There is one idea that the brainboyz devolved into snotlings, but given the origins of the orks I'm not sure that's anything more than a legend as Massey was talking about.

Without astropaths et al humanity would not have been able to maintain a cohesive empire during that time. However, because the orks had been pushed back by the eldar empire (a necessity for the eldar to maintain their stressfree lifestyle) humanity probably had less of a need to be a galactic empire with less threats. The eldar were picky about their planets so unless humanity tried to take them the eldar would have been left alone.

The timeline in the HH artbooks also shows that humans had alliances with aliens during this time (hence why I likened it to Star Trek minus the Federation).

We also know that the eldar spread at least from the Eye of Terror to the Eastern most edge of the galaxy and the southernmost edge as that's where the Maiden Worlds were created - the last great work of their empire before it collapsed.

Hellebore

MetalGecko23
07-07-2010, 04:48
Do you remember where you read about the Brainboyz? I ask because I figure it would be useful to read up on. I personally wouldn't mind not having Orks as a major force, but they are liked by other people and they were mentioned as fighting in the War of Heaven, so I'd imagine they'd be more then the occassional pocket. I'd want to do something different with them then already exists in 40k.

4th/5th edition Ork codex, I think with the runt herd entry. Though as far as I remember there is no date as to when the Brainboyz disappear or what caused it because no Ork remembers. Which is typical of Ork record keeping. Though it also implies that the Orks have heavily changed in their history from Kork to Ork with there being a significant difference.

cornonthecob
07-07-2010, 08:24
I say that because it is inferred although not stated that the Old Ones may have been the brainboyz. Considering that the orks are an old one creation according to the Necron codex, any genetic modification would have been produced by Old Ones and as Brain Boyz were supposed to have built the genetic memory into the orks it would follow that they are old ones who built them.



I thought the space slann were supposed to be the brainboyz ?

Lord Zarkov
07-07-2010, 09:07
The Old Slann (the 'in world' ancestors of the 'modern' space Slann) are the (or in newer background one of the) race(s) that make up the Old Ones, the formost of which may/may not have been the Eldar Gods.

Iuris
07-07-2010, 11:01
Regarding the term Techno-barbarian:

I would suggest the alternative interpretation that the barbarian part does not necessarily imply anything like tribal organization or a scavenger nature. Rather, just like to the people of the 40th millenium, for whom the Emperor is the guiding light and enlightenment, it signifies the lack of Imperial ideal and creed.

So, the Dark age of technology is dark because it lacks the light of the Emperor - it may have been a true utopia, but since the people of the age didn't follow the Emperor, they were not enlightened, and thus the age was "dark".

In the same way, I expect that the techno-barbarians were just not of the ordered imperial culture and therefore are barbaric - not following the creed, not behaving as imperial dogma implies they should and so on.

I would say WE, the people of M02 and M03 are techno-barbarians living in the dark age of technology.

Malice313
07-07-2010, 11:58
Do you remember where you read about the Brainboyz? I ask because I figure it would be useful to read up on.

Page 6, The Lost Race, Waaargh The Orks, 1991 1st ed.

Idaan
07-07-2010, 13:19
Regarding the term Techno-barbarian:

I would suggest the alternative interpretation that the barbarian part does not necessarily imply anything like tribal organization or a scavenger nature. Rather, just like to the people of the 40th millenium, for whom the Emperor is the guiding light and enlightenment, it signifies the lack of Imperial ideal and creed.

So, the Dark age of technology is dark because it lacks the light of the Emperor - it may have been a true utopia, but since the people of the age didn't follow the Emperor, they were not enlightened, and thus the age was "dark".

In the same way, I expect that the techno-barbarians were just not of the ordered imperial culture and therefore are barbaric - not following the creed, not behaving as imperial dogma implies they should and so on.

Yes, them having banquets and parades to celebrate the defeat of the Pan-Pacific Tyrant and other things, like the fact that the Etnarch had industrial-grade deathcamps implies the level of advancement higher than gun-toting equivalent of Conan. Though the mind-image is so awesome that there had to be some literal technobarbarians.


I would say WE, the people of M02 and M03 are techno-barbarians living in the dark age of technology.
Aren't we though?
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images-4/techno-viking.jpg

IvanTih
07-07-2010, 14:08
I think that you should change the name to Warhammer 25k because they didn't have Navigators in the 20th Millenium(they were created in M22),I like the 25k name because the 25th Millenium was the last Dark Age millenia before the Age of Strife began(or was it 23rd) and in that Millenium humanity had achieved highest level of technology.

abasio
07-07-2010, 14:10
Barbarian

1. A member of a people considered by those of another nation or group to have a primitive civilization.
2. A fierce, brutal, or cruel person.
3. An insensitive, uncultured person; a boor.

Meaning number 2 seems to fit surprisingly well with some of the descriptions.

malika
07-07-2010, 14:12
You guys might be interested in this (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_2_Dark_Age.shtml).

IvanTih
07-07-2010, 14:13
You guys might be interested in this (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_2_Dark_Age.shtml).
I hate some of the Phil's fluff,the one about the DIY chapter which has missing company because some chick got mad at the captain.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-07-2010, 15:03
Barbarian

1. A member of a people considered by those of another nation or group to have a primitive civilization.
2. A fierce, brutal, or cruel person.
3. An insensitive, uncultured person; a boor.

Meaning number 2 seems to fit surprisingly well with some of the descriptions.

Actually all three terms could fit surprisingly well on 40k at large. 2 and 3 is bang on for virtually everybody and the cultural cohesion of the Imperium is somewhat questionable.

nedius
07-07-2010, 15:06
Remember as well that much of the Imperial technology of the 40k universe was re-created from much earlier stuff after the discovery of STC files.

So much of what is in 40k could be part of 20k - It's just they have them from their initial invention rather than their rediscovery.

For me, races might break down like this:

Humans - factional, rather than imperial. Ruled by tech-guilds of some sort, armed with many familiar 40k equipment, and some even more advanced stuff. Jet bikes, androids etc. Each 'guild' will be slightly different - one more relying on androids, others on power armoured elites (but still humans), rank after rank of 'serfs', mechanised etc. Titans and knights probably common place.

Orks - By 20k probably much as they are today, and equally wide spread. The only think holding back the orks are the orks themselves.

Eldar - As present - perhaps a little more numerous. Not sure when 'The fall' happened, so there may already be dark eldar.

Chaos - Human factions that have been subtly twisted - not wide spread, small terrorrist factions mostly.

Tau - Infant species, not yet a star empire.

Tyranids - either just genestealers as a as yet unclassified alien organism, or not at all.

Necrons - VERY rare sightings. Mostly just ruins.

The big difference would not be in technology on the board, but in races. There would be many more small races to be encountered prior to the various purges that would have happened as humanity set up it's first empires.

malika
07-07-2010, 15:29
No Tau, no Necrons and no Tyranids...

Idaan
07-07-2010, 15:58
Eldar - As present - perhaps a little more numerous. Not sure when 'The fall' happened, so there may already be dark eldar.

The Fall happened just before the Great Crusade was launched, so M30. Before that the Eldar were the dominant galactic empire, so advanced and powerful that they didn't need to work or fight and instead concentrated on pursuing their every dream - which gave birth to Slaanesh. They terraformed thousands of worlds, had legions of robotic warriors and weapons that could destroy planets with ease. So pretty different than now.

@ Karl MkVI - sorry for not replying to your post about the Fall in that other thread, but my computer got infected with some virus that made lesbian porn appear on my desktop. Luckily I've defeated it now. I'll try to write something later.

jlmb_123
07-07-2010, 16:13
Regarding the Brain Boyz, the only categorical reference to them being Snotlings was in the Final Liberation booklet, but there was a mention around the time that 3rd. Ed Codex: Orks came out in a WD article.

The human race, by M20, would still be stuck in the Sol system or on it's fringes: nearly every piece of fluff regarding the expansion of the human race (which haven't been made in a long time) says that it could go nowhere until the Navigator gene was harnessed, when the species exploded into the galaxy and started colonising as much as it could.

nedius
07-07-2010, 16:14
Not really. The Robots would probably be very simmilar to wraithlords/guard of 40k - just perhaps not powered by soul stones. And their technology - grav tanks etc, would all still be the mainstay of their army.

However, they couldn't have been that dominant, as humaity carved quite a happy empire out around them. Orks would still have been running as rampant as ever, more than happy to take them on.

Idaan
07-07-2010, 17:31
Not really. The Robots would probably be very simmilar to wraithlords/guard of 40k - just perhaps not powered by soul stones. And their technology - grav tanks etc, would all still be the mainstay of their army.

However, they couldn't have been that dominant, as humaity carved quite a happy empire out around them. Orks would still have been running as rampant as ever, more than happy to take them on.
Well, territory-wise it was as dominant as the Imperium now is, with all the orks and minor xenos empires within its very boundaries, with sectors sometimes separated by thousands of lightyears of wild space. If the xenocidal Imperium has aliens within its borders, the Eldar Empire that was happy to let other races live as long as they didn't bother them wouldn't be any different. Probably even more picky when it comes to settling planets, leaving sub-standard ones like Earth for lesser races. All in all, when talking about 3d space with Warp routes and everything, you can't just look at space it covers on maps to see which domain is bigger.

Their empire being the galactic overlord and being completely unassailable is the whole reason for the Fall. They wouldn't be able to succumb to their decadence if they were attacked by Orks all the time and if modified tractors driven by colonists (as Matt Ward postulates in Codex - SM) were enough to "curb their menace".

massey
07-07-2010, 22:49
@ Karl MkVI - sorry for not replying to your post about the Fall in that other thread, but my computer got infected with some virus that made lesbian porn appear on my desktop.

Whoah! I think my computer has the same thing. God bless hackers.

Malice313
07-07-2010, 23:55
Regarding the Brain Boyz, the only categorical reference to them being Snotlings was in the Final Liberation booklet, but there was a mention around the time that 3rd. Ed Codex: Orks came out in a WD article.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post?:confused:


Tyranids - either just genestealers as a as yet unclassified alien organism, or not at all.

I think the Genestealers were first recorded as being encountered on a moon of Ymgarl. As I say; recorded. As we are talking about an era that pre-dates records....

Sir_Turalyon
08-07-2010, 00:28
Regarding the Brain Boyz, the only categorical reference to them being Snotlings was in the Final Liberation booklet, but there was a mention around the time that 3rd. Ed Codex: Orks came out in a WD article.

The human race, by M20, would still be stuck in the Sol system or on it's fringes: nearly every piece of fluff regarding the expansion of the human race (which haven't been made in a long time) says that it could go nowhere until the Navigator gene was harnessed, when the species exploded into the galaxy and started colonising as much as it could.

Most detailed description was in Waagh da Orks; some of it is reprinted in 3rd edition rulebook.

barrangas
08-07-2010, 03:55
The current Ork Codex list Brainboyz as possibly degenerating into Snotlings or being extinct. It didn't list a time for this but I personally can imagine it could have happened around Slaanesh's birth. Both the Eldar and Humans got screwed by this, why not the Orks too?

Anyways, this is my understanding of the age of myth for 40k, at least as it involve humanity. First you have humanity heading out to the starts with bright and shiny technology. People have stated that it wasn't until navigators showed up that they could travel FTL but I thought they used computer. The computers turned on humanity, kind of spoking the wheels and then Slaanesh pops and the galaxy goes crazy with Warp Storms. This is when all of society collapses. Eventually the Warp Storms settle down, the Enslavers largely go away, and the Emperor shows up. This I thought was when the Navigators showed up, thanks to the universes oldest couch potato. How off am I?

AndrewGPaul
08-07-2010, 07:53
Humanity could travel in the Warp before Navigators, the same way everyone else does; slowly and dangerously.

Clockwork-Knight
08-07-2010, 08:03
Exactly, by doing a lot of warp jumps ranging up to 500 light years, before your computers/cogitators need to recalculate the route again.

ForgottenLore
08-07-2010, 08:51
Humanity could travel in the Warp before Navigators, the same way everyone else does; slowly and dangerously.

As opposed to how safe it is WITH navigators?

slow I will buy, since they emphasize the non-psychic Tau FTL is much slower than imperial dirves, but they also comment that it is much much safer.

Lord Zarkov
08-07-2010, 09:52
Tau drives are safer than Warp Drives proper as they don't go fully into the warp, but are massively slow.

Navigated warp jumps involve going into the warp proper and having the Navigator steer you around the currents, avoiding storms, and making sure you stay on track (to the best of their ability). As you're in the warp proper for a long time these are very fast.

Calculated warp jumps involve using a computer to work out how the warp tides are at the moment and which ones you need to be in to go in the right direction. This is again much faster than Tau FTL as again you are in the warp proper. The problem comes from the fact that you won't always have it exactaly right and that the warp tides are always changing - therefore you need to exit the warp fairly frequently in order to make sure you haven't drifted too far in the wrong direction and to make course adjustments. If the currents change suddenly and dramatically however (as they do from time to time) then, with no one aware and able to do anything about it until you exit the warp, you will get thrown massively of course. Additionally if a storm suddenly brews then, without someone to steer you safely through, there's absolutely nothing you can do - therefore calculated jumps are much less safe than navigated ones. Tau don't have this problem since they don't go fully into the warp - hence they're very safe.

To use a basic analogy:
Imagine you're on a platform in the ocean, and want to get a message another one quickly. The first few meters of this ocean is fairly calm, but deeper than that and there are a number of stong undertows in various directions.
A Tau jump is putting it in an inflatable ball and pushing it diagonally into the calm water and letting buoyancy push it back to the surface a distance away
A calculated jump is working out the current direction of the undertow, dropping the messge down there and then having it surface after you think it's got to a certain point, then repeating until you get where you want.
A navigated jump is droping it down to the undertow, but then steering it around to make sure it's always in a current going in the right direction, then only surfacing it when you get where you want.

massey
08-07-2010, 12:40
Remember, the Warp was supposed to be much calmer in those days. Calculated Warp jumps were probably quite common and safe.

barrangas
08-07-2010, 14:25
Remember, the Warp was supposed to be much calmer in those days. Calculated Warp jumps were probably quite common and safe.

Not only this, but if the Warp was as dangerous as it is in 40k, I'd have to imagine the Eldar would have been more careful.

So assuming that Humanity had access to FTL travel and to avoid having the Imperium Beta Edition, this is what I'd think they'd look like at the time:

You'd end up with a confederation of nations within space. Each nation would have a number of colonies that you could reach in a reasonable amount of time. The Nations would probably have some sort of council that was more effective then the UN or the LoN, the old "us versus the aliens" probably being a big reason for this. They would still have problems with infighting though. I think the idea would allow for humanity to have expanded the way they had by the Great Crusade and would still allow them to have a standard level of technology that would make a robot rebellion a big threat.

The Eldar can be explained for allowing Human (and Ork) expansion by not caring what bugs do, unless some one tries to horn in on their fun. Or some one feels like calling a Wild Hunt for laughs. I could see the Eldar having their robots being controlled remotely by random citizens who got to experience what war was like with out risk to themselves. Of course there would be those Eldar who wanted to feel flesh part beneath a blade and drink their prey's heart's blood.

Dakkagor
08-07-2010, 14:44
A calculated jump is listed as five light years. (rogue trader by fantasy flight games, some of the numbers may suck but the other background is solid.)

Thats stll an appreciable distance, enough for us to travel to to our closest stellar neighbour and back, but in Imperial terms its nothing. Its atleast part of the reason the chartist greatholds and independant traders take so long to get anywhere.

IvanTih
08-07-2010, 15:58
Regarding the Brain Boyz, the only categorical reference to them being Snotlings was in the Final Liberation booklet, but there was a mention around the time that 3rd. Ed Codex: Orks came out in a WD article.

The human race, by M20, would still be stuck in the Sol system or on it's fringes: nearly every piece of fluff regarding the expansion of the human race (which haven't been made in a long time) says that it could go nowhere until the Navigator gene was harnessed, when the species exploded into the galaxy and started colonising as much as it could.
Actually Warp Drive was developed in M18 and humanity had sent generation ships in M15.
Navigators were created in M22.

barrangas
08-07-2010, 16:31
Actually Warp Drive was developed in M18 and humanity had sent generation ships in M15.
Navigators were created in M22.

Do you have a source for this? It would be a big help. :)


A calculated jump is listed as five light years. (rogue trader by fantasy flight games, some of the numbers may suck but the other background is solid.)

Thats stll an appreciable distance, enough for us to travel to to our closest stellar neighbour and back, but in Imperial terms its nothing. Its atleast part of the reason the chartist greatholds and independant traders take so long to get anywhere.

This info is for 40k though, it could have been very different based on what was availible for making calculations and the condition of the Warp. I also remember reading in the 3rd Ed rules book for 40k that travel could take hundreds of years in real time, but for the people travelling in the warp it didn't seem like this.

It might be more useful to focus on various concepts then hard numbers anyways. If Humans were written to be loosing their foothold on the galaxy as their warp capability is in jeopardy as AGI forces could play mary hell with the weak AI of a Warp Computer. Humans have just managed to develope Navigators (assuming IvanTih is right about Navigators and I am about Slaanesh being born in the 24th or 25th Millenium) but it might not be enough to prevent the governing bodies of humanity from collapsing. Details about safe FTL travel could be hammered out later once the framework is down.

Idaan
08-07-2010, 17:38
I am about Slaanesh being born in the 24th or 25th Millenium)
Nope.

Ten thousand years before the Fall, the Warp was riven with storm and tempest. This made it almost impossible for human spacecrraft to travel between the stars. With the birth of the Great Enemy the Warp was temporarily calmed, its rage all but spent. A new equilibrium was reached as Slaanesh joined the ranks of the Chaos gods. With the Warp storms around ancient Terra dispersed, Human worldsacross the galaxy were brought into contact once more. During the Great Crusade that followed, the Emperor brought Humanity together and forged the Imperium of Man. In this way the death of the Eldar heralded the birth of the Imperium and Mankind inherited the starsRight before the Great Crusade = late M30.

barrangas
08-07-2010, 19:00
I found this which should prove useful:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

I got mixed up with the collapse of the Eldar government and the actual birth of Slaanesh.

IvanTih
08-07-2010, 19:50
Do you have a source for this? It would be a big help. :)


This (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Timeline) is the source.

Lothlanathorian
08-07-2010, 21:44
Also, Tyranids could still be a viable army, just with a different name and some different units. It is noted that some believe that Catachan Devils are remnants of a previous, unrecorded, Tyranid bio-fleet. Perhaps they are and it happened during the DAoT, when both Humanity and the Eldar would have had sufficient technology to drive those filthy, extragalacticals back into the black spaces-between they came from.

IvanTih
08-07-2010, 21:57
Also, Tyranids could still be a viable army, just with a different name and some different units. It is noted that some believe that Catachan Devils are remnants of a previous, unrecorded, Tyranid bio-fleet. Perhaps they are and it happened during the DAoT, when both Humanity and the Eldar would have had sufficient technology to drive those filthy, extragalacticals back into the black spaces-between they came from.
Interesting idea,but I think that Nids could beat the Eldar and DAoT humans since they have already devoured another galaxy which maybe contained empires of same power.

Clockwork-Knight
08-07-2010, 23:27
The Eldar had a fully functional webway with which they could reinforce their beleaguered planets in a matter of days, or even hours, while unleashing enough robot warriors to battle any form of threat.
The webway is the key of eldar dominance in the 21st millennium (as well as their ability to reincarnate with all their knowledge, desires, experience and other stuff).
At that time, the Eldar Empire was completely undefeatable.

Dakkagor
08-07-2010, 23:40
I don't think eldar reincarnated with all of their experiences. Where is that mentioned at all?

barrangas
09-07-2010, 01:15
So Warhammer 24K seems like it would be most appropriate. Roughly 1000 years before the Eldar Empire collapses as they go Reaver and the Warp Storms kick up and shut down human travel. It would be a good starting point for the Men of Iron's rebellion.

For army options you could have Humans, Eldar, Eldar Exodites, (Kr)Orks, Jokaero, Men of Iron, and even Squats and Slann. I think it would be interesting to show all of the Old One races just starting to degenerate as a theme. I'd personally make the Slann so that they weren't the Old Ones but one of their first successful creations. These are just options that jump out at me and new ones could easily be added. I'd personally avoid adding the Tyrranids except as referrences in fluff. For instance, rather then adding Necrons, you could state that some strange skeletal Men of Iron attack Y colony on planet X.

One thing that I did notice from reading fluff of those wikis was that it seemed that Technology was far better then as it is in 40k.

Kage2020
09-07-2010, 02:13
I don't think eldar reincarnated with all of their experiences. Where is that mentioned at all?
I don't think that it is mentioned anywhere, merely inferred from the process of the Shaman from the 'fluff' in Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned. After all, if some monkey men can figure out how to do it, surely the most powerful psyker race in the galaxy could... And that's not an unreasonable stance to take, just not necessarily the definitive one.

Other than that you're dealing with the whole holistic experience/development of time thing that is common to reincarnation beliefs in the real world.

IIRC, that is.


...Roughly 1000 years before the Eldar Empire collapse...
You might want to increase that by a factor of, say, 4-or-so. :D

Kage

barrangas
09-07-2010, 03:22
You might want to increase that by a factor of, say, 4-or-so. :D

Kage

Actually, after reading up on this on the two different wikis (both pretty much have the same with the info but the one I found has fewer entries, so I'd go with the other one), the Eldar Empire collapsed around the 24th or 25th Mil. as they where to busy killing each other for fun and prizes to maintain it.

Lord Zarkov
09-07-2010, 10:12
Wd127 and Vect's account in Tourturer's Tale however imply/state outright that, while for a while before the fall the Eldar themselves had started to become inward looking and hedonistic - relying on things like their robot armies to actually maintain thier empire, the empire itself was actualy well maintained (courtesy of said robot army) - and infact had to be for the core of the empire to carry out their hedonistic ways. - and this state of affairs laster up until the Fall
The Craftworlds were also busy trading with people right up until the Fall (the reason they didn't get corrupted by all the hedonism) so the Eldar Empire must have been in a good enought state for them to be doing this.

Thus it appears the Eldar Empire was still going strong right up till the Fall in M30

Hellebore
09-07-2010, 11:07
Actually, after reading up on this on the two different wikis (both pretty much have the same with the info but the one I found has fewer entries, so I'd go with the other one), the Eldar Empire collapsed around the 24th or 25th Mil. as they where to busy killing each other for fun and prizes to maintain it.

Society collapsed, but the empire did not. It's a subtle but important difference. Considering that eldar technology is built around self repairing materials powered by warp energy they would continue functioning indefinitely, so it wouldn't matter if the eldar race disappeared in one day, the systems would continue functioning.

Hellebore

barrangas
09-07-2010, 16:24
Society collapsed, but the empire did not. It's a subtle but important difference. Considering that eldar technology is built around self repairing materials powered by warp energy they would continue functioning indefinitely, so it wouldn't matter if the eldar race disappeared in one day, the systems would continue functioning.

Hellebore

Society and the government of the Empire collapsed. I think that this begins to get into a philosophical debate on a what point a nation stops being a nation. The Eldar were guarded against external threats and basic needs, like sanitation, were met. On the other hand civil order was non-existant and there was no one there to really engage in external aspects of government. IMHO the Eldar Empire was as much an empire as an empty clam shell is a clam. But since this is a matter of opinion I declare each and every one of ours, on this topic, to be right! :D

Any ways, I'd put the setting before this break down. What I think I'd do would be to have a lot of robotic units that were essentially taken control of by some one of influence with in the empire (the HQ choices) to serve their private whims. The idea would be sort of like a noble forming a fox hunt, were the robots are the hounds and the fox happens to be some hapless planet.

Lord Asgul
09-07-2010, 23:22
If the robots are the hounds and the fox is some hapless planet...what are the people on it? Also would any fences in the way be Void Whales? :D

barrangas
10-07-2010, 00:50
If the robots are the hounds and the fox is some hapless planet...what are the people on it? Also would any fences in the way be Void Whales? :D

The people are the beer cans they crush on their skulls of course, isn't it obvious?!? ;)

Kage2020
10-07-2010, 17:32
Actually, after reading up on this on the two different wikis (both pretty much have the same with the info but the one I found has fewer entries, so I'd go with the other one), the Eldar Empire collapsed around the 24th or 25th Mil. as they where to busy killing each other for fun and prizes to maintain it.
Wiki's. That might be your problem right there. ;)

Kage

barrangas
10-07-2010, 21:26
Wiki's. That might be your problem right there. ;)

Kage

Well since going around and digging up RT books and such tends to be difficult, and reading through several books to find out a small piece of information is extremely time consuming, the wikis are more practicle. With wikipeadia I always went with the Trust but Verify rule of thumb. This thread is a useful way to verify such information.

gloriousbattle
10-07-2010, 22:17
Warhammer 20K?

Eldar = Vulcans
Dark Eldar = Romulans
Orks = Klingons
Not spot on, but could be an interesting cross over. Why couldn't Picard have been from the Dark Age of Technology?

IvanTih
10-07-2010, 22:24
Warhammer 20K?

Eldar = Vulcans
Dark Eldar = Romulans
Orks = Klingons
Not spot on, but could be an interesting cross over. Why couldn't Picard have been from the Dark Age of Technology?
Please don't use ST comparison.

gloriousbattle
11-07-2010, 01:17
Please don't use ST comparison.

Why not? Works ok for me.

Idaan
11-07-2010, 11:34
There were no Dark Eldar in M20. Also, even now it's more like Eldar=Romulans, Dark Eldar=Remans.

gloriousbattle
11-07-2010, 15:46
There were no Dark Eldar in M20. Also, even now it's more like Eldar=Romulans, Dark Eldar=Remans.

I didn't say it was a perfect fit, just one of those stream of consciousness thingies.

Revontuli
21-07-2010, 07:10
For my two cents on the whole thing:

I agree the Eldar would be around, but more like Dark Eldar in personality - I get the impression that virtually all of the Eldar-inhabited planets were around where the Eye of Terror is now. While they may have once colonized the entire galaxy, they probably withdrew most of their population to that region (think of it as the Eldar's equivalent of the Segmentum Solar) over the millennia. One implication is that the fall of the Eldar contributed to, or even caused the Age of Strife due to ever increasing psychic energy caused by the degeneration of Eldar society.

Humans would have oodles of STC equipment, but I also imagine cooler stuff that really wouldn't fall under the classic STC dogma. Standard Template Constructs were meant to build things like VW Bugs - insanely durable and user serviceable, but not particularly classy or cutting edge. The Dark Age, though, would almost certainly have its share of complicated tech that really couldn't be built with an STC system - A mechanic with basic tools could fix a VW bug easily, but there's no way he'd be able to fix a Prius or Tesla with just a soldering iron and wrench - Conversely, a VW Bug is more likely to survive being stuck in the mud or being shot than a Prius or Tesla. Lost (and experimental) tech like stasis fields, proper AI systems, and who knows what else could be marching about - that's sort of what caused the Age of Strife in the first place!

As for Tyranids, you might very well encounter infiltrator organisms (like Genestealers or even the odd Lictor equivalent), but one implication in the fluff I like is that the psychic explosion that birthed Slaanesh is what actually attracted the attention of the main Hive Mind forces:

<Somewhere in the Andromeda Galaxy, ~M30, Imperial Reckoning>
"Hey, what's that?"
"I bet it's edible, let's go!"

I agree the whole Dark Age of Technology works well as a realm of hazy legend, but I also can't help but think about what the whole era must have actually been like. If nothing else it'd great to think about as ideas for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader!

barrangas
21-07-2010, 14:33
Wow, I thought this was dead! :)

Welcome to Warseer Revontuli. I started a thread in the Rules Developement section on Warseer called Warhammer 24K to actually try to flesh out some armies. I recently put out a list for regular humans to get a basis for working out a Men of Iron list. What I tried to go for something around what you are talking about. They are armed with Carapace Armor rather then Flak, their Lasguns are AP 5, special forces use Coil Guns (real Gauss weapons) rather then Bolters to the same effect, and I gave them more energy based tank weapon systems then ballistic ones. Essentially they have a better standard quality then the IG get, but aren't that different.

One idea I was trying to flesh out was using a for runner of the AdMech as either attatchments or as an army to themselves. Essentially they'd be technomages that use technology so far ahead of what the average person understands it seems like magic.