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Angelust
07-07-2010, 05:16
Pre-thread: I'm putting this list up because the "WoC in 8th Edition" thread was opened months before release, and had a lot of speculative discussion which killed the thread around release time.




7th edition Warriors of Chaos mainly came down to two styles of play, often used in conjunction to form a kind of hybrid.

This is the famous Chaos cavalry, and magic spam. Chaos seemed to do very well with marauder horsemen, hounds, and knights, as you generally had all the necessary equipment for screening, baiting, redirecting, and crushing charges. There were some bad match-ups, but it generally worked against many standard armies.

Magic was also potent, though it never got to ridiculous levels like VC, DoC, or HE Teclis <edit>or LM</edit>. One of the major weak areas of WoC is/was ranged attacks, and magic was almost necessary to bring some strength back to this area (killing bait, redirectors, march blockers, etc).

I personally found a mix of both to be a good combination, as mounted sorcerers were quite survivable and wizards on discs were great at tossing flickering fire on annoyances.


So now that we're in 8th, I'd like to open a discussion on where to take our army in the new edition.

With cavalry of all kinds made significantly less potent overall (random charge range, far less powerful benefits for completing a charge, increased average and maximum charge range of infantry, inability to break ranks the way they used to, etc), I'm not really sure what they're there for anymore except as additional punch to certain combats.

Also, with the BRB lores being so good this time around, I'm wondering if the Chaos lores are worth it. It used to be possible to run lots of cavalry and full Lord + hero slots as wizards, but what's our optimum magic load out now?

Lastly, our marauders are quite good as inexpensive ranked infantry with lots of punch. How will Warriors and Chosen compare as ranked infantry to our wonderfully priced marauders?

<edit add> Also, chaos dragons were never quite competitive compared to our other choices (IMHO), but I always thought they were fun. I'm not sure if there's ever any reason to drop a Lord choice on a dragon now. This is unfortunate for me personally, as my Chaos army centerpiece is a Lord on Dragon.

With the new meta of 8th leaning towards infantry, I'm personally foreseeing my 2250 lists as having 60 marauders core, with a solid block of warriors to back them up. 10-20 hounds mandatory in most cases. After that, as much magic as is feasible, maybe 6 wizard levels, a BSB, and spice it up with whatever extra units I happen to be eyeing that day.

How do you guys see WoC developing in light of the new meta?

Oberon
07-07-2010, 05:26
Warriors have much more staying power against the likes of skaven/elves/humans and take more punishment on the way to CC. I think there's a place for both units, chosens are basically warriors with a free roll on the chart so if you got the points you might as well take chosen.

I think shadow is nice from the new lores, but ab lores have their place too. Tz lore is much easier now and panda&gate are as awesome as ever. You still want to have lv4 wizard, marked or unmarked. BSB is almost mandatory too.

It looks bright, we shall see.

enigma-96
07-07-2010, 05:38
Chaos Knights are AWESOME as tarpit pieces now...except this tar pit will eventually wipe the unit it's fighting and tar another unit. I'm serious on this one, charge the 5 standard knights into a flank and watch as you butcher rank and files and they do NOTHING back to you due to high armor, toughness, etc. and the fact that only 7 can attack back and that's assuming that the enemy is SEVEN deep (more likely to be around 5). Even better is that the enemies' reform in combat only works if they passed a leadership test using the current combats modifiers, so in most cases they'll need double ones to turn and face you (which will kill you, but alas such is the risk.)

Another good use for the knights is that because they are small they can fit into a flank while your marauders hit the front. So yeah would a similarly priced marauder unit hitting the enemies flank do better? Yeah, but that's a big package to deliver while the knights are easy to move around the battlefield and get in where those kills are needed.

Magic wise I like both the chaos lores and the BRB lores, book lores are cheaper while BRB ones are stronger...in most cases.

Oberon
07-07-2010, 05:45
Well they would be steadfast so no modifiers to reforming vs 5 or so knights... You'd have to take more than 5 to start with to have a meaningful number in CC. Otherwise yes, they still hit hard and are great and fast.

Angelust
07-07-2010, 05:47
I really like the aesthetic appeal of Chaos Knights, but I'm dubious as to their gaming worth. 5 knights were always pretty easy to take down for most lists, which is why 7th ed Chaos usually used 2-3 units of knights for redundancy and target saturation. I remember having my single unit of Khorne Knights roll 2 units a turn on multiple occasions, often with just 3 knights after shooting. Whenever I had 1 unit, they'd often get nuked by a spell, or otherwise fed a cheap unit and counter-charged.

I agree they're still quite killy, but 200-300 points can buy a LOT of marauders, and even a good block of warriors. And those infantry are pulling off 11-12 inch charges on average, which is only a few inches less than the Knights.

enigma-96
07-07-2010, 05:49
Well they would be steadfast so no modifiers to reforming vs 5 or so knights... You'd have to take more than 5 to start with to have a meaningful number in CC. Otherwise yes, they still hit hard and are great and fast.

Nope, unless I'm reading it wrong (I'm looking at it right now) steadfast ONLY applies to break checks, not for the reform. I'll keep checking but until otherwise the point still stands. They are still pretty killy though yes.

*edit, damn NVM auto-search highlighted what I was looking for, and it definately is on unmodified if steadfast. Oh well

Seville
07-07-2010, 06:30
Great topic. I really don't know how this will all pan out for us yet!!

I think ranked units of dogs just became a lot more useful, but still not sure how often I will use them.

Knights I think are still great - maybe not as good as they were, but still definitely worth taking as a killy unit to support your anvils.

I have yet to play a game of 8th, so I am admittedly mostly talking out of my butt.

But I think I am gonna go with two, yes two, horde units of MoK marauders at 40 strong. What I will arm them with, I am not sure of yet. Flails? GWs? HW and Shields? I'll try them all out first.

So, two 40 man horde marauder units, supported by 3x5 HW+S MoK warrior blocks. And then go MSU style with Ogres w/ GW, Dragon Ogres w/ GW, and Knights.

And you can't leave the Hellcannon at home anymore!!! That, with our mages, should actually give us a decent approximation of "shooting" now. At least enough to soften stuff up before the charge.

I think Chaos is going to be even more fun than it was before! It's more diverse and flexible now, it seems.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
07-07-2010, 07:25
<edit add> Also, chaos dragons were never quite competitive compared to our other choices (IMHO), but I always thought they were fun. I'm not sure if there's ever any reason to drop a Lord choice on a dragon now. This is unfortunate for me personally, as my Chaos army centerpiece is a Lord on Dragon.

Their damage potential is pretty impressive now, though: with two breath weapons, you are looking at 6 regular attacks followed by 2d6 autohitting S4's and 2d6 autohitting S2's at -3 armour save in melee, followed by d6 autohitting s6's at the end of combat. If you can keep him alive until you contact, that might be enough to completely remove an elite unit from the board, especially T3 elites that are vulnerable to S2.

Oberon
07-07-2010, 07:42
In 7ed dragon was mobile, twin-headed flame thrower with a powerful caster riding it. Now it can be march-blocked, breath weapons are one use only (and only one per turn too), and when you engage a unit their heroes can move up to challenge the rider and if the challenger dies to your lord, dragon just sits there and does nothing. Sure thunderstomp is nice, but then again template weapons hit both the rider and the dragon, not one or the other.

They might still be awesomely powerful, but against units without champions and armies without cannons only.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
07-07-2010, 08:01
I didn't know breath weapons were only one per turn. That makes in rather less effective as an alpha strike. And the new LOS rules do make any large monster more vulnerable to cannon fire, but that was a given to begin with.

Isn't it still possible to draw out a champion by engaging with one of your own cheap units and issuing a challenge from him first?

soots
07-07-2010, 08:05
Marauder GW + Marauder GW + Marauder GW + Marauder GW + Marauder GW + Marauder GW + Marauder GW + Marauder GW + dispel scroll

Coldblood666
07-07-2010, 08:25
Great topic. I really don't know how this will all pan out for us yet!!

I think ranked units of dogs just became a lot more useful, but still not sure how often I will use them.

Knights I think are still great - maybe not as good as they were, but still definitely worth taking as a killy unit to support your anvils.

I have yet to play a game of 8th, so I am admittedly mostly talking out of my butt.

But I think I am gonna go with two, yes two, horde units of MoK marauders at 40 strong. What I will arm them with, I am not sure of yet. Flails? GWs? HW and Shields? I'll try them all out first.

So, two 40 man horde marauder units, supported by 3x5 HW+S MoK warrior blocks. And then go MSU style with Ogres w/ GW, Dragon Ogres w/ GW, and Knights.

And you can't leave the Hellcannon at home anymore!!! That, with our mages, should actually give us a decent approximation of "shooting" now. At least enough to soften stuff up before the charge.

I think Chaos is going to be even more fun than it was before! It's more diverse and flexible now, it seems.

Im pretty sure that you dont get a parry save from HW+S when you are frenzied so maybe thats a bad equipment choice for Khorne Warriors. I personally would use either additional hand weapons or halberds and shields.

Seville
07-07-2010, 16:01
Im pretty sure that you dont get a parry save from HW+S when you are frenzied so maybe thats a bad equipment choice for Khorne Warriors. I personally would use either additional hand weapons or halberds and shields.

Oh! That changes things a bit.

Additional hand weapons or halberds sound like good choices then, but, I guess I am always scared of losing that great armor save. 4+ doesn't actually really protect against much anymore. What's your experience been with that? I always take shields! Just too scared not to.

blackjack
07-07-2010, 16:31
The issue is why take anything other than Maruaders in huge blocks. The numbers for a 50 man Marauder block with Great weapons, Mark of Khorne and full command are stuiped good. I have not found anything worth 300pts that can stand up to it. Take 6+ blocks of 50 guys a 4th level mage a BSB and call it a day.

_dandaman_
07-07-2010, 17:36
I'm most exited about how all khorne armies are now awesone! I'm thinking a chaos lord on foot with the bloodbath sword (+3 attacks) and HoME, MoK, 9 rerollable S5 attacks ftw! I think all combat and a hellcannon are the way to go this ed. I'm almost hoping for a missfire and a 3! Hahahaha!

Gaargod
07-07-2010, 17:58
Wizard lords are better than ever. I also think they should probably stick to Tzeentch. Death is just too unreliable (if you don't roll Purple Sun, you're screwed for inflicting much damage), Shadow is better but again, very dependent on which spells you roll, and Fire just sucks compared. Tzeentch with +5 to cast is ludicruously cheap and still carts some of the best spells in the game (gateway remains great, treason gets if anything better and pandemonium becomes fricking insane). Give him Third Eye if you think it will be an issue.

Marauders with khorne and great weapons are, unfortunately, stupidly good. I ran the scenario a few times, and they outperform chaos warriors with halberds, khorne and shields for the same points cost pretty much every time.

BSB is mandatory. End of. Nice little bonus on that one too - give him tzeentch and then he could take Golden Eye (because you're going to take Talisman of Preservation/Warding on your lord for a permanent awesome save) and Helm of Many Eyes - combine with halberd and he will murderkill any light units he comes across (on disc, obviously). If points allow, of course.

Knights are however still useful. There are a few units which will beat the stuffing out of even new marauders (stuff like phoenix guard). Against them, knights do the job. They're no longer your whole army, but as you're probably spending less on heroes, you can still fit in a fair few of them.

Thinking about:

Sorc Lord with lots of gear
BSB on disc (currently with flail)
3 x 43 marauders with khorne, great weapons, musician and standard
2 x 6 knights with standard and khorne

Comes in at exactly 2k (although thinking about moving a few points around to allow for HoME on the BSB). Depressingly reliant on magic for removing light units, but would appear to work.

What annoys me is that i couldn't even exchange the marauders for chaos warriors if i wanted to. They're 97pts more (assuming 18 with gear), which means i can only get 2 blocks (and probably some marauder horsemen/doggies).

Stonewyrm
07-07-2010, 19:08
The issue is why take anything other than Maruaders in huge blocks. The numbers for a 50 man Marauder block with Great weapons, Mark of Khorne and full command are stuiped good. I have not found anything worth 300pts that can stand up to it. Take 6+ blocks of 50 guys a 4th level mage a BSB and call it a day.

I don't have an immediate answer for that. I guess a lot of template weapons and a lot of shooting could hurt unarmored marauders . Same with a fast list that can combo charge and isolate your units.

The real problem I have with that idea is that it would be worse than 7th for onedimensionism. In 7th only Cav was good (for units), now you suggest only Marauders are good. I think they are all good choices now. Other than Forsaken there are no units that "suck". WoC finally has some choices. Sure some units went up, others went down but they all work now.

This is the choice I was looking for when I started WoC. I wanted cool infantry, I have useful and good looking infantry now. I wanted cool knights, I still have cool knights but I don't HAVE to take 4 units if I want to win. I can take a chariot because they don't take slots away from my knights anymore. Trolls work, Ogres work, Dragon Ogres went a bit down but are still cool. They all have a place in the new WoC.

We don't HAVE to take a Lv4 (or D.Prince) to get gateway. All Lores can be used now, even Slaanesh if you want to go fluffy. We don't 100% need magic and knights to do all our damage now. Everything we have hurts and we got anvils too.

We have 4 Gods now. In 7th I was sure there were only 2, Slaanesh and Tzeentch. The odd Buboes sniper or Exalted on Juggernaut not included.

I got into WoC for the hard troops and the very cool models. Now I can use them all (even my awsome looking Shaggoth) and still be good enough to win. 6+ Blocks of Marauders & Characters just isn't as much fun as a good looking balanced list.

Barry "the blade"
07-07-2010, 19:15
I still think the huge units of marauders look great on paper, but won't perform as well on the table. I can see maybe taking one unit of 40+, but not more than one. I just expect that those HUGE units will be to unwieldy on the field.

theSkullduggery1
07-07-2010, 20:02
The number of hordes on the table depends on how much terrain you roll, my last game there were 10 pieces and there was only one good spot for a horde...the good thing is that it is much easier to reform, so you can get around obstacles and then fight how you want to.

CmdrLaw
07-07-2010, 20:43
Yeah Tzeetch seems to be a very strong Mark in this edition edition, which is a shame as I have just committed myself to Nurgle who seem to be flailing a bit, although I have taken the Tzeetch Sorceror Lord with lots of toys.

But with parry giving a ward save combined with it being that or regeneration is a big hit. But works great with Tzeetch.

So converting all my CW to have halberds is the next step, keeps the nice I5 striking.

With stepping up the order of the day seems the tactics will be maximise damage and soak return with casualties i.e. marauder horde. Or go as defensive as possible to try to mitigate the stepping up attacks, so MoT CW with the 3+/5+.

Small damaging units still work as support, so Knights or chosen but cannot steamroll units anymore.

Trolls/Ogres are interesting again as can attack in 2 ranks with 3 attacks, Ogres can have armour and GW's, Dragon ogres are also horrible, these guys have real shock and awe ability.

GWItheUltimate
07-07-2010, 20:54
Chaos Knights are AWESOME as tarpit pieces now...except this tar pit will eventually wipe the unit it's fighting and tar another unit. I'm serious on this one, charge the 5 standard knights into a flank and watch as you butcher rank and files and they do NOTHING back to you due to high armor, toughness, etc. and the fact that only 7 can attack back and that's assuming that the enemy is SEVEN deep (more likely to be around 5). Even better is that the enemies' reform in combat only works if they passed a leadership test using the current combats modifiers, so in most cases they'll need double ones to turn and face you (which will kill you, but alas such is the risk.)

Another good use for the knights is that because they are small they can fit into a flank while your marauders hit the front. So yeah would a similarly priced marauder unit hitting the enemies flank do better? Yeah, but that's a big package to deliver while the knights are easy to move around the battlefield and get in where those kills are needed.

Magic wise I like both the chaos lores and the BRB lores, book lores are cheaper while BRB ones are stronger...in most cases.

Execpt that Flaking dosen't do ***** in 8th now !

blackjack
07-07-2010, 21:00
so what if there is terrain. Most of it does not slow down troops any more. All forests do (unless you play the wacky magic forest rules.) is provide cover saves from shooting.

Malorian
07-07-2010, 21:04
Execpt that Flaking dosen't do ***** in 8th now !

Flanking is still important in that you are getting less attacks back.

With the marauders in the front they can't reform and so they are forced to be chopped up by the knights while they just try and do damage to the marauders.


More damage = more combat res, and if you make the enemy unit take enough tests it will break no matter how big it is.

Havock
07-07-2010, 21:55
Tzeentch Disclord with third eye. Flickering Fire/Pandaemonium/Gateway or whatever your opponent has rolled on an additional +1 to cast.

True LoS makes it easy to get LoS to another wizard. Especially a Slann.

GWItheUltimate
07-07-2010, 22:02
Flanking is still important in that you are getting less attacks back.

With the marauders in the front they can't reform and so they are forced to be chopped up by the knights while they just try and do damage to the marauders.


More damage = more combat res, and if you make the enemy unit take enough tests it will break no matter how big it is.

Yes but you too have less attacks.. because you cannot fit a lot of knights in btb contact with the enemy.

So 3 knights in contact on the flank gave you no real advantage but the enemy that dosen't have an attack from second rank... wow ! It's really not what it was anymore. Flaking is still important.. with infantry !

GenerationTerrorist
07-07-2010, 22:03
I'll be generally running the following unit setups, for my Tzeentch lads, in larger games.

- Warriors in units of 20 in 5*4
- Knights in units of 7
- Chosen (plus Sorcerer and BSB) in a unit of 16 or 22 in 6*3 or 6*4
- Marauder Horsemen and Warhounds the same as usual, units of 5

I have 4000pts worth, just to enable me to chop and change depending on the game size, and to prevent staleness from using the same units/combinations.

I might even be cheeky and invest in a couple of Khorne character models, incase I feel the urge to go mono-Khorne from time to time when I get bored of magic.

Yes, I am still of the older adage that followers of different Chaos Gods should not be of the same "tribe" no matter what the current fluff tells us! Makes for a nice army-wide theme too.

Malorian
07-07-2010, 22:05
You should expect to be against big units, that means all the knights can fight.


Yes infantry can take away the rank bonus but the knights should kill enough to be the same anyway, and it's better to have the CR by kills rather than anything else.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
07-07-2010, 22:13
I still think the huge units of marauders look great on paper, but won't perform as well on the table. I can see maybe taking one unit of 40+, but not more than one. I just expect that those HUGE units will be to unwieldy on the field.

Yes those are my thoughts as well, I'd keep to one unit, that's what I'm planning on running once I get the models.

Nixon

o0-NattyMcFatty-0o
07-07-2010, 22:16
i still think knights are epic, units of 6-8 with mok (8 because its fluffy of course) have done well for me. they charge more reliably, and even when not on the charge, strike just as hard and fast. you dont want to see what these guys do too knights with okkams mind razor (number 6 shadows spell- ld as strength XD). I aslo love the site of big units of marauders, is mok the best way then? just i thought mot would be good for some reason.

either way, i think theres alot of stuff going for warriors now, apparently we've been pushed up a tier (although thats speculation at the moment) but there are now, as someone already mentioned, very few useless units compared to 7th ed, although its sad to see that normal warriors are worse, on a count of me loving the models (and having about 45 of them...somewhere, can't remember though:P)

NixonAsADaemonPrince
07-07-2010, 22:40
i still think knights are epic, units of 6-8 with mok (8 because its fluffy of course) have done well for me. they charge more reliably, and even when not on the charge, strike just as hard and fast. you dont want to see what these guys do too knights with okkams mind razor (number 6 shadows spell- ld as strength XD). I aslo love the site of big units of marauders, is mok the best way then? just i thought mot would be good for some reason.

either way, i think theres alot of stuff going for warriors now, apparently we've been pushed up a tier (although thats speculation at the moment) but there are now, as someone already mentioned, very few useless units compared to 7th ed, although its sad to see that normal warriors are worse, on a count of me loving the models (and having about 45 of them...somewhere, can't remember though:P)

S8 knights must have been fun :D. For marauder khorne is good with gw to chop stuff up good and proper, while tzeentch you use with at least a shield, and probs light armour.

Yeah I think WoC have gone up a "tier", or a least generally profited from 8th ed, what with such choice of good units and all, and the reliance on infantry. And normal warriors are excellent, give em khorne (sorry if you meant unmarked, makes the rest of this explanation meaningless) and halberds and you have one of the best infantry units in the games, and with tzeentch and shields you have one of the most survivable.

Nixon

Jericho
07-07-2010, 23:17
Nope, unless I'm reading it wrong (I'm looking at it right now) steadfast ONLY applies to break checks, not for the reform. I'll keep checking but until otherwise the point still stands. They are still pretty killy though yes.

*edit, damn NVM auto-search highlighted what I was looking for, and it definately is on unmodified if steadfast. Oh well
Charge them in the flank with Knights. They reform to face. Charge them in their brand new flank with a brick of infantry. They will not be steadfast for long against two units. Problem solved :P

Anyway I think you know what I'm trying to say. Free reform to face flankers just opens up new flanks to be charged.

Gaargod
07-07-2010, 23:50
There's a reason i'm trying to persuade a house rule of only needing 1 full rank to cancel steadfast... (For what it matters, i quite like most of 8th ed, just really hate steadfast. The basic idea is ok, but you shouldn't be able to use the general's leadership and it shouldn't work so well in the flank)

Consider a block of 'x' goblins. Doesn't really matter how many, but we'll assume the damm things are pretty much infinite, and so have 3 ranks and standard. They're also using spears.

A flank charge of chaos knights on them, 6 strong with khorne, racks up:
18 attacks, 3s to hit = 12 hits, 2s to kill = 10 dead goblins
5 horsey attacks, 3s to hit = 10/3, 3s to kill = 20/9
Total of about 12 dead goblins.

Return attacks (for the sake of the experiment, we'll assume as many ranks as can fit in BtB with the knights, although in reality it is unlikely to be more than 5)
8 attacks, 5s to hit = 8/3, 5s to wound = 8/9, 2+ save = 8/54 = 0.15 dead knights

Basically, the knights will win, and keep winning, until there's about 1 of them left (assuming average dice rolls). Therefore you give the goblins LOTS of opportunities to start failing their LD5/6 (8, with general) rerollable leadership. Also keep in mind that 50 goblins come in at 200pts + command.


Flanking no longer means, as it did in 7th ed, that things are auto screwed. But chaos knights will still really, really hurt if they hit your flank.

Asymmetric
07-07-2010, 23:57
.... Sometimes when you come across a tougher anvil you just need to reach for a bigger hammer .....



I'm pondering over the viability of using the daemon sword in synergy with the the new re-roll to hit banner in a hard hitting unit, just relying on overwhelming most units with shock and awe carnage.



Something like:

Chaos lord (or sorc lvl4?)
- Warhorse
- Daemon sword
- Mok
- spare points on defence

Exhalted Champion BSB
- Re-roll to hit banner
- Mok
- Warhorse
- Flail
- Defence gear

As examples.

And put them both with 5 chaos knights of khorne with full command.

Sure it's expensive but it could decimate ranks wholesale while keeping high mobility and pretty darn good Int. And it's not like 1+ armour save units can't take a few return attacks either against truly massive units.

Alternatively you could put the lord and BSB on juggers and put them with a unit of orges.



Or am I utterly mad.

bubafett
08-07-2010, 00:11
<quote>There's a reason i'm trying to persuade a house rule of only needing 1 full rank to cancel steadfast... (For what it matters, i quite like most of 8th ed, just really hate steadfast. The basic idea is ok, but you shouldn't be able to use the general's leadership and it shouldn't work so well in the flank)

Consider a block of 'x' goblins. Doesn't really matter how many, but we'll assume the damm things are pretty much infinite, and so have 3 ranks and standard. They're also using spears.

A flank charge of chaos knights on them, 6 strong with khorne, racks up:
18 attacks, 3s to hit = 12 hits, 2s to kill = 10 dead goblins
5 horsey attacks, 3s to hit = 10/3, 3s to kill = 20/9
Total of about 12 dead goblins.

Return attacks (for the sake of the experiment, we'll assume as many ranks as can fit in BtB with the knights, although in reality it is unlikely to be more than 5)
8 attacks, 5s to hit = 8/3, 5s to wound = 8/9, 2+ save = 8/54 = 0.15 dead knights

Basically, the knights will win, and keep winning, until there's about 1 of them left (assuming average dice rolls). Therefore you give the goblins LOTS of opportunities to start failing their LD5/6 (8, with general) rerollable leadership. Also keep in mind that 50 goblins come in at 200pts + command.


Flanking no longer means, as it did in 7th ed, that things are auto screwed. But chaos knights will still really, really hurt if they hit your flank.</quote>


Your forgetting the fact here that after that first round when they pass their rerolled 8LD they then get a LD test to be able to perform a combat reform and you are no longer in the side.

Rochr
08-07-2010, 00:46
I like flails more and more... An Exalted Hero with Helm of Many Eyes, Mark of Khorne and a Flail will be one dangerous guy, specially if you put him with a unit of trolls so that the stupidity is not completely wasted. Five strength 7 attacks at WS7 with re-roll to hit will wipe out any other lord/hero in the game. Most heroes/lords do not have Initiative 7.

Edit: How come Warriors of Chaos tactica is so popular on Warseer? Are we all Chaos fans here or what? I am the only one in my area/club that plays WoC :P

Havock
08-07-2010, 03:56
We're just active posters.

Zaustus
08-07-2010, 04:05
WoC is also one of the most popular armies in Warhammer, and especially on Warseer for some reason. Axe-wielding psychos in baroque armor just appeal to a broad demographic, I suppose!


I'm pondering over the viability of using the daemon sword in synergy with the the new re-roll to hit banner in a hard hitting unit
There is no re-roll hits banner. It's a re-roll a charge die banner. And you can't re-roll 1s when you use the Daemonsword, anyway.

ProfessorCurly
08-07-2010, 05:28
Alright, here are my thoughts after looking through things for about a week. Or rather, here are a few units that I like looking at the new rules and thinking about how to work with them. I'd like some thoughts on them, see how you guys think they'll do.

-------------

x50 Chaos Marauders - 300pts
-Full Command
-Flails
-Mark of Khorne

A simple unit that has gotten a lot of attention recently. Or at least, units like it. I like it for the versatility it offers. When someone lines up their big unit and thinks they're gonna own some face, you can form into a Horde. Amongst the Horde units, Chaos Marauders are in the top tier. Extremely cheap, very deadly. With the full command they can reform fairly reliably and the champion should be able to hold off the worst the enemy characters for a turn at least.

And they are also cheap enough that, should the occasion warrant it, you can instead deploy them Column style - 5 wide and 10 deep. With the musician you can even do it in the middle of the game and not lose too much movement. It's a battering ram meant to bust down Steadfast units. It also makes moving around the main battle line easier, always a plus. Even then, they have 16 Ws4, Str 5, I4 attacks to the front. 'Hell of a good start' as the kids are saying these days.

In this way they can act either on their own or as a force multiplier for the rest of your army. It's all about hammer and anvil now. Engage the enemy to the front with a unit they can't really ignore, hit them from the side with the fast elements. Chariots and Knights, commonly, or perhaps small units of Warriors acting as a 'detachment'.

OR the main competitor to the above unit, this one:

Chaos Marauders - 340pts
-Full Command
-Light Armor, Shields
-Mark of Tzeentch

In their own way, Mark of Tzeentch Marauders with light armor and shields are even more of a battering ram. Perhaps better in the long run - but they don't have the 'bam' kind of fear factor the Khorne Marauders have. Or you could really skimp and just give them shields for the flat 5+ ward save in combat, though to be honest I think the 5+/5+ would help against the things that threaten these kind of Marauders the most. Mass attacks from things like High Elf spearmen (For reference - a Horde 5 deep of High Elf spearmen only kill about 6 Marauders of Tzeentch w/ light armor and shields when the marauders are 5 wide).

They take shooting remarkably well, and with a hero carrying the Ironcurse Icon they get a 5+ ward versus warmachines. With the numbers that a warmachine can rack up now, cutting it by a third is actually very significant. And remember, shots at the big blocks are shots not hitting your heavy hitters. I'm honestly up in the air at the moment between the Khorne and Tzeentch marauders. Both have their uses and perks - but I'm perhaps leaning towards Tzeentch right now.

----------------

Not really a 'unit' as such, but more of a combined arms type deal. For my 'hammer', I'm not thinking that a single unit is going to suffice. Rather, a combination that the percentage system makes possible.

x7 Chaos Knights - 330pts
-Banner Bearer
-Mark of Khorne

Chaos Chariot - 150pts
-Mark of Nurgle

Yes indeed, I am really looking forward to having 2 wings of this. The combination is obvious - chariot adds impact hits to deal with always strike first elites like Swordmasters, and is a capable combatant on its own. More of a force multiplier though.

The Knights are, in my opinion, the best heavy cav grinders in the game. It doesn't really matter if they charge or its the next round or if its a hundred rounds from now. They throw out attacks and are hard as nails on the return. 7 seems a good number to me - can take a few casualties, remains reasonably priced. Of course I'm open to other ideas as well.

---------------------

Exalted Hero - 220pts
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Talisman of Preservation
-Charmed Shield
-Flail
-Battle Standard Bearer
-Chaos Steed

What is there to say? I love this guy. Your BSB is a big deal and this guy is designed to take a cannonball or two to the face and keep on going. Maybe give him a cheap retinue of Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh to act as bullet catchers, or run him with knights. To recap:

1+/3++ Saves, a 2+ against his first hit, and a 2+ Look Out, Sir! against things like cannonballs. In combat he goes down to a 2+/3++ but switches on the smashy with his Str 7 flail. Could also give him like a Halberd for perma strength 6. Personal preference really.

He's definitely going to make an appearance in basically all of my armies unless I can think of a better BSB.

------------------

Sorcerer Lord - 394pts
-Level 4 Wizard, Lore of Death
-Armor of Destiny
-Necrotic Phylactery
-Infernal Puppet
-Favor of the Gods
-Chaos Steed

A bit light on protection, with 'only' a 3+/4++, but for a wizard that isn't half bad. Combine with the fact that he's immune to the Lores of Death and Nurgle (which encompass the great majority of sniping spells), and all the of the "Take x test or die" spells, when he's in a unit of Cav he's basically untouchable. He isn't much in combat, but then wizards almost never are. He's better than most though, he's probably gonna get himself some Eye of the Gods rolls with the Lore of Death.

Sure, it'll suck if he doesn't roll up the Purple Sun, being able to throw out three sniping spells is a major draw. Doom and Darkness + Hellcannon also makes me giggle. He is also a good magic defense in his way - +4 to dispel attempts, and if they try to Power Scroll their way to an Irresistible Force - well I have the Puppet. Hopefully, the Lore of Death will lend itself to generating power dice on its own. If not, a level 1 mana battery carrying the Power Familiar and Book of Secrets might be a decent investment. Means at minimum I'll have 3 more power dice than they do dispell dice before channeling. And who knows, maybe the weeny wizard will get some surprise kills with his Lore of Death knowledge.

If the book of secrets stays the same, having double/triple spirit leech from 2 casters makes me lol.

---------------

Just some ideas I thought I'd share, get some feedback on. See what everyone else is thinking.

Seville
08-07-2010, 07:11
All I can say is: glad I just finished painting my Hellcannon! :D

Two questions!

1. 2 Hellcannons or just one?

2. Flails or great weapons on the marauder hordes?

Oberon
08-07-2010, 07:13
2 if you can afford them, and great weapons.

Stonewyrm
08-07-2010, 07:33
Zaustus: Are you sure there is no re-roll hits banner? All the posted items lists had one for 55pts, the first one.

I think the key word for smaller elite units is the ability to "Grind". Being heavy armored to reduce losses and attacking with multiple high strength attacks round after round. Chaos Knights are exellent at grinding down an opponent if able to reduce the amount of attacks back like when flanking.

As ProfessorCurly said they can also be combined with a chariot. The fact that they don't require a special slot makes this more viable. They only have a 3+ AS but if you get the knights in first they might take up enough space that the chariot only clips the opposing unit thus getting it's full attacks while reducing the attacks back.

I also play Brets so a quick look at them shows how good Chaos Knights really are. Core Bret Knights go down to S3 after the charge. Even the mighty (38pt) Grail Knights are 2 S4 attacks after charging. Questing Knights are S6 every round but they only have 1 attack and are T3, 3+ AS. They will drop alot faster then Chaos Knights.

WoC have high base Strength and good Armor Saves so I can only think of one last thing to say:

"Grind, baby, Grind" :)

Stonewyrm

enigma-96
08-07-2010, 07:42
All I can say is: glad I just finished painting my Hellcannon! :D

Two questions!

1. 2 Hellcannons or just one?

2. Flails or great weapons on the marauder hordes?

I'd say it boils down to your play style, both is good.

Flails, mathematically a 40 man horde of marauders versus a 40 man horde of something else (assuming Empire or worse quality) will beat the enemy by ALOT and since you have pretty good initiative you will probably strike first which means less marauders die in return, and since you have 4 ranks and they definately now have 4 or less they ain't steadfast and will need double 1's to hold. Essentially with flails you save marauders without the loss of strenght since you only need it for one round.

For me it's flails on the big hordes and great weapons on the small units who can't break steadfast anyways, but that's just me.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
08-07-2010, 09:48
Zaustus: Are you sure there is no re-roll hits banner? All the posted items lists had one for 55pts, the first one.

I think the key word for smaller elite units is the ability to "Grind". Being heavy armored to reduce losses and attacking with multiple high strength attacks round after round. Chaos Knights are exellent at grinding down an opponent if able to reduce the amount of attacks back like when flanking.

As ProfessorCurly said they can also be combined with a chariot. The fact that they don't require a special slot makes this more viable. They only have a 3+ AS but if you get the knights in first they might take up enough space that the chariot only clips the opposing unit thus getting it's full attacks while reducing the attacks back.

I also play Brets so a quick look at them shows how good Chaos Knights really are. Core Bret Knights go down to S3 after the charge. Even the mighty (38pt) Grail Knights are 2 S4 attacks after charging. Questing Knights are S6 every round but they only have 1 attack and are T3, 3+ AS. They will drop alot faster then Chaos Knights.

WoC have high base Strength and good Armor Saves so I can only think of one last thing to say:

"Grind, baby, Grind" :)

Stonewyrm

On Chaos knights, those are my thoughts entirely. I look forward to playing people who go "oh you have cavalry, as I'm now steadfast you won't be able win" where my reply will simply be "good for you". Then we will play and my chaos knights will happily grind his units to nothing. Fun times :D.

Nixon

Oberon
08-07-2010, 10:21
@Stonewyrm: the 55 p banner re-rolls the charge distance roll, possibly a translation error or something in the rumours. Attacking/charging/hitting, almost the same really...


The printed book however is quite clear and not a translation error, it's reroll to charge distance.

Stonewyrm
08-07-2010, 10:52
Ok that makes sense, the list was first leaked in German and they must have mistranslated the word "Angriff". Thanks

Stonewyrm

HampMan
08-07-2010, 15:59
So It seems that horde units of chaos marauders is the way to go. My, myself is starting a chaos army at 500 points to start with. So should i go with big units of marauders(like 20) with halberds and MoK with warriors of chaos to back them up or chaos marauder horsemen?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
08-07-2010, 16:19
So It seems that horde units of chaos marauders is the way to go. My, myself is starting a chaos army at 500 points to start with. So should i go with big units of marauders(like 20) with halberds and MoK with warriors of chaos to back them up or chaos marauder horsemen?

Marauders can't have halberds, but flails and great weapons do the same kind of thing. The bigger the better with marauders as well, so get as many in as possible. Warriors or horsemen are both good for support, depends on your preference really (though you can get horsemen cheaper for an effective unit than warriors).

Nixon

HampMan
08-07-2010, 16:46
So what your saying is that in 8th the marauders should be the core and focus of the army, while the other units are just there for support. Does that mean that it is not viable to do an army based on warriors? or is Marauders the optimal choice for rolling over enemys?
And i guess that i can get many marauders as the heroe can only cost like 125 points(25% of 500), so i should go all out then?

Oberon
08-07-2010, 16:50
I think warriors are viable as the main line, against units the other armies use as line units (swordsmen, spearmen etc) are so weak in CC your warriors should win every combat. Their price is a big drawback though, depending on your opponent and their shootines, you might not have enough warriors when it comes to CC. Marauders do not have the armour, but the bodies to take the shooting casualties.

WoC can go both ways IMO.

HampMan
08-07-2010, 17:00
And I've heard rumers about attacking through two ranks, so warriors with great weapons could be very good in my opinion, but i guess halberds is better because you do not lose the initiative. am i right?

Oberon
08-07-2010, 17:07
The rumous are correct. 2 First rank get to fight, second rank gets only 1 attack though. Halberds>GW, yes. Ini 5 is too good to pass up.

HampMan
08-07-2010, 17:09
okay, but now with the horde(40+ minatures in a 10x3 formation) rule i can attack another rank back right? so having that many marauders would be awesome?!

GWItheUltimate
08-07-2010, 17:14
Yes and no.

10 wide big base models is such a mess to place efficiently on the battle field...
I doubt you would place 10 models in base to base contact also.

I'd still go max 6 wides... but Hordes are more made for small and cheap infantry.

HampMan
08-07-2010, 17:18
But isn't marauders small and cheap if anything? XD

CmdrLaw
08-07-2010, 17:20
Yeah marauders are the same cost as Skaven rats, comparably they very cheap.

Asymmetric
08-07-2010, 20:01
There is no re-roll hits banner. It's a re-roll a charge die banner. And you can't re-roll 1s when you use the Daemonsword, anyway.

Oh poo. It looks like your right.

Back to the drawing board for me...

I might mess around with Sigvald in an infantry unit instead.

GWItheUltimate
08-07-2010, 20:28
But isn't marauders small and cheap if anything? XD

No they have big base... that's what I meant.

But they are damn cheap !

Angelust
08-07-2010, 20:47
I was considering having marauders core, with, Chosen of Tzeentch as my main anvil unit.

With HW and Shields, MoT, and favor of the goods coupled with a couple warshrines, you can get the #12 roll fairly often. In the 7th edition, the problem was that they were still M4, and they would never ever get into combat with anything significant. In this edition, with greater possible charge ranges and the greater focus on infantry-grind, I'm wondering if they'll finally find a place in armies again?

Even after lots of marauders, there are still lots of points left over for chaos to play with. That's actually one of the things I like about 8th edition chaos. You can fill up core ranked infantry slush on the cheap, fill up mandatory magic on the cheap, and then splurge on more "fun" units.

What do you guys think?

Nitael
08-07-2010, 21:41
Hi
I just want to know what do you guys think about that hero build :
Exalted Hero of Tzeentch BSB
Barded Steed
Shield / Halberd
re-roll armour save amulet (don't remember name of the item)
Book of Secrets
Third Eye of Tzeentch

So we have +1 cast from MoT and for example can draw TLoS to Slann with Lore of Metal or any other lore of magic.I think that guy can be pretty strong in combat and in magic.

GenerationTerrorist
08-07-2010, 21:44
Having had a quick peruse of the new book, which arrived today for me, I have a couple of Character setups that might seem interesting....

Lvl4 MoT Sorcerer: Bronze Armour, Talisman of Presevation, Channeling Staff, Ironcurse Icon

Exatled BSB MoT: Halberd, Shield, Disc, Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Potion of Strength

Reasons why I think these could work?

The Lvl4, sat in a bunker unit of Warriors or Chosen, has a 3+ Ward Save and is immune to Killing Blow. He adds +1 to Channeling rolls and the unit he is with has a 5+ Ward Save against War Machine hits.

The BSB is a mobile "Line Buffer" who can re-deploy 20" to add his re-roll ability to a unit that might need it. He also has a 3+ Ward Save against shooting and the potential to dish out S8 attacks for a turn if needed.

Any other interesting setups that people have come across yet?

Nitael
08-07-2010, 21:48
This Ironcurse Icon will give 6+ Ward Save on unit unless the unit have Mark of Tzeentch, right ?

GenerationTerrorist
08-07-2010, 22:05
Yep. Which is what mine will have :-)

Angelust
09-07-2010, 05:03
So what your saying is that in 8th the marauders should be the core and focus of the army, while the other units are just there for support. Does that mean that it is not viable to do an army based on warriors? or is Marauders the optimal choice for rolling over enemys?
And i guess that i can get many marauders as the heroe can only cost like 125 points(25% of 500), so i should go all out then?

It seems to me like Marauders don't necessarily form the core, but they're almost indispensable for their point cost with the rules changes. Since a Warrior/Chosen heavy army will likely have at least 800-1000 points in warriors in a 2250 point list, beefing up your line with 80-100 marauders can be as cheap as 500 points. That would still leave 700+ points for characters and support, which isn't bad considering that you don't need 10 levels of magic with tons of items to overwhelm your opponent's scrolls and dispel dice anymore. So figure 600 points for a tooled up Sorcerer Lord, and 150 or so for a BSB.

In a setup like above, the marauders for 500-ish points adds such beef and attrition-survival that it's hard to justify a couple units of knights/drogres/horsemen instead.

Compared to Empire State Troops and other army expendables, I think Marauders are possibly our best and most versatile unit in WoC 8th edition.

Edit: Considering the above, that army would have 30-40 warrior/chosen, 80-100 WS4/S5 Marauders, a lvl 4 sorc, a BSB, and a little wiggle room for extras. What do you guys think would really threaten that army? I'm sure some of the new lores could hurt this sort of horde list pretty bad...

Kalec
09-07-2010, 05:33
An Empire list with Balthasar, a bsb, a bunch of artillery, some knights, and large narrow units of swordsmen. Warmachines are far more dangerous to hordes of flimsy troops than the new lores.

Magister_Ordo_Lyrae
09-07-2010, 06:18
I had a look at the BRB today at my FLGS and javelins are now 12" whereas throwing axes are still 6" and I saw no mention of the "quick to fire" Special rule ignoring long range range penalties. I therefore think Javelins are the way to go with marader horsemen in 8th. I will wait till I own a copy in 2 days but I am thinking 10 marauder horsemen with spears, shields, and javelins are the way to go in the future.

Urdokadin
09-07-2010, 07:28
may as well go for broke and just put light armor on them at that point, but then that kinda defeats the purpose of them being fast cav.

Imho I think the most important thing horsemen can bring to a combat will be their reroll on pursuit moves, that I think will be a heavily used ability this edition even if Horsemen themselves may not be so hot, your infantry blocks are likely better used holding a position or reforming after a battle, letting your horsemen run things into the ground while the infantry gets ready for a new encounter sounds pretty handy to me.

Angelust
09-07-2010, 09:27
Interesting change to Chaos Spawn -- They took away lurching horror, and gave it 2d6 move.

That means 4d6 charge range, no 360 movement. It's no longer that useful for killing bait, march blockers, and board control, but it it suddenly has the highest possible charge range in the game at a whopping 24", though highly unlikely.

Overall still fairly useless in 8th, unless you can flank charge a weak unit to keep them pinned for a round before they reform and kill you. Maybe as an additional model to assist pursuits?

CmdrLaw
09-07-2010, 10:15
It didn't clarify the magic item that allows a re-roll of a power dice as long as it wasn't a 1....don't know if they meant it to be a 6.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 12:07
Angellust: n0 2d6 move is still just that, a 2d6 move. It moves with random movement->what you roll is what you get, no extra dice for charging. OTOH, the opponent doesn't get charge reactions either. Flailing appendages and lurching horror were basicly the same thing, now with a new name.

Kerill
09-07-2010, 12:34
Interesting change to Chaos Spawn -- They took away lurching horror, and gave it 2d6 move.

That means 4d6 charge range

It means 2D6 charge range. Indeed 2D6 for everything.

Looking through the errata a few things and changes popped out:
1) Book of secrets got nerfed. I sadly expected the loss of the +1PD, the fact that the book will turn a level 4 sorceror into a level 1 sorceror. Pretty stupid and counter intuitive if you asked me. I never had it on a sorceror lord but some people wo did will need to remove it. Big shame about the book nerf though, lowers WOC magic potential a fair bit IMO.
2) Warshrine gets no thunderstomp. To me that relegates it and chosen back to the useless pile in 8th. Shame really.
3) Gateway no longer kills a VC ring bearer (change but not important)
4) Bloodskull pendant got a nerf in that it no longer strikes models outside a challenge (changed). Presumably doesn't strike models in a challenge either.

They also didn't bother to state what kind of spell each chaos lore spell is.

CmdrLaw
09-07-2010, 12:38
Yeah after looking through it seems the Magic side got largely ignored with regardes to multiple characters swapping out spells and casting values and spell typess.....so yeah everything.

Unless they are doing spell lists seperately, but they do cover some of the tzeetch spells in there.

Not sure what you mean when you say presumably the bloodskull pendant won't hit characters in a challenge? Surely it will hit the whoever the bearer is against in a challenge, just not the rest of his unit.

Poseidal
09-07-2010, 12:47
I had a look at the BRB today at my FLGS and javelins are now 12" whereas throwing axes are still 6" and I saw no mention of the "quick to fire" Special rule ignoring long range range penalties. I therefore think Javelins are the way to go with marader horsemen in 8th. I will wait till I own a copy in 2 days but I am thinking 10 marauder horsemen with spears, shields, and javelins are the way to go in the future.

That's interesting. I might go all Javelins with the Marauder Horsemen, with maybe spears and save some points and go all harassment. S4 is still decent though, as it dents shields.

Flail is less of the number one option now.

GenerationTerrorist
09-07-2010, 12:52
I can't see the updated rules for WoC on the GW website. Anyone got a link to where posts 67, 68 and 70 are referring to?

Lungboy
09-07-2010, 12:58
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1260034a_FAQ_WarriorsofChaos_2010.pdf

Kerill
09-07-2010, 13:03
Not sure what you mean when you say presumably the bloodskull pendant won't hit characters in a challenge? Surely it will hit the whoever the bearer is against in a challenge, just not the rest of his unit.

If you were in a challenge it used to hit models outside the challenge. If you were outside the challenge it wasn't stated if it would hit an adjacent model in a challenge (e.g. with unit champion).

BrotherNefarius
09-07-2010, 13:08
ok, so after reading the faq...

no new spell lores, no lore specific per cast power and even worse, no lvl 0 spells...
Does that mean that unmarked sorcerers are > all? except maybe 1 Tzeetch for Pandemonium (which is now insane with the new miscast table amd that most people will cast with 2 dices min.)

No thunderstomp for Warshrine... Warshrine was kind of neat with the new rules if it got Thunderstomp, but if it doesnt apply, then is it still worth it?

No mention of MoT and Parry, so i guess it applies?

What do you guys think?

Oberon
09-07-2010, 13:24
Did you REALLY expect new lores from the FAQ? Level 0 spells doesn't matter too much, as we can still swap for the nro 1 spell, so it really only would have been some totally new material for which FAQ is totally wrong place to be. Tz lore is still great because it's easiest of them all (well not really, but +5 to cast is still nice) and it has 4 great spells (flickering fire, treason, pandaemonium, gateway) of which you are certainly having at least two.

Warshrine was kinda nice in 7ed I think, in 8ed it only was getting d6 ASL autohits at s4 so not much. Was warshrine ever a combat unit? Is it so close to being a combat unit you just needed ~3 s4 hits more? Really? No biggie there.

Yes, MoT &Parry works nicely still, it was in the WD (sure, it isn't very reliable a source but still) and the logic behind it should be sound.

I'm quite positive about woc faq, it's the lizardmen/empire faqs I'm not too happy about.
-stanks being more hard to kill than before
-puppet being used only after the cupped hands of the slann if he so chooses

Godgolden
09-07-2010, 13:32
they continue to nurf WOC needlessly with FAQ's, sigh.

most irritating thing, shrines a MONESTER but doesnt benefit from being a mooonster great, would be ok if they made juggers not count for monster either and allow a look out sir!

that and the stupid corpse cart gets thunder stomp, propper favouritism.

CmdrLaw
09-07-2010, 13:41
Its say the shrine moves like a monster, but we only want it from a game perspective.

Fluff wise stomp is because a monster is a big creature that can err Stomp on normal sized ones.
And the warshirne is a big symbol with a lot of random worshippers and creatures pulling it, makes no sense whatsoever that the warshrine would have a stomp attack.

Corpse cart might be argued that because the majority of the cart is a writhing mass of bodies, bit like a spawn. Tt can manage a "smother" if you will.

Kerill
09-07-2010, 14:04
ok, so after reading the faq...

no new spell lores, no lore specific per cast power and even worse, no lvl 0 spells...
Does that mean that unmarked sorcerers are > all? except maybe 1 Tzeetch for Pandemonium (which is now insane with the new miscast table amd that most people will cast with 2 dices min.)

No thunderstomp for Warshrine... Warshrine was kind of neat with the new rules if it got Thunderstomp, but if it doesnt apply, then is it still worth it?

No mention of MoT and Parry, so i guess it applies?

What do you guys think?

Tzeentch is still good, buboes is still good and, above all, the casting values for chaos lores are now very easy to reach with +5 which means less miscasts and more efficient use of dice.

So despite being in a filthy mood today there are positives amongst the negatives:
Book of secrets got nerfed BUT they didn't increase the casting values of the chaos spells (something I was afraid they might do).
Warshrine was nerfed (or more correctly not improved) but all of the hellcannon improvements are still there (now M6 instead of M3, S10/5, no VP's for killing the CD's etc.)
A couple of other nerfs are fairly minor. Overall WOC got a big boost and in general are a more interesting army in 8th.

Another thing on dragon ogres btw is now a lot of things that might not have affected them in the past now do since they are a monstrous beast- things like the pipes of doom.

BrotherNefarius
09-07-2010, 14:18
quick question, stone thrower (for hellcannon) is a large or small blast template?

Kerill
09-07-2010, 14:19
Small, 3" blast template

Morthak
09-07-2010, 15:52
So, a Hellcannon can move 6 now? Why?

Morthak

GenerationTerrorist
09-07-2010, 15:53
Quick question....
With the BRB Lores, no Wizard can have the same spell except for the signature one.

Would this apply to the Chaos Lores in that, for example, a pair of MoT Sorcerers could both have Flickering Fire or a pair of MoN Sorcerers could both have Buboes, but share no other spell? Or for the race-specific Lores is it a single "owner" only per every spell.

Not quite sure how this works yet!

Agnar the Howler
09-07-2010, 16:13
12 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch: Halberds or Shields? Because there are 12 of them (6x2) i'm thinking halberds for the greater attacks, but with the shields giving them a 3+/5+ as opposed to 4+/6+ with halberds...

This is for a 1k point campaign, and i'm sticking with my pure Tzeentch theme, so no suggesting 15-20 warriors of khorne or whatever instead please.

Djekar
09-07-2010, 16:22
What about 15 with HW + S? You can run them 5x3 and get some decent killiness and survivability? I don't think buying 3 more models will break the bank, but I know that it can sometimes.

If that isn't an option I think I might give them Halberds. Even though I feel it's an inferior pairing of mark and weaponry (inferior to the optimal that is, not inferior as in unusable), I also feel like it's the safe(r) middle ground.

Rochr
09-07-2010, 16:39
So, a Hellcannon can move 6 now? Why?

Morthak

The Hellcannon has always been able to move 6". It is only rampage that is 3D6. It can't move and shoot.

Djekar
09-07-2010, 16:45
The Hellcannon moves 6", but in 7th if there were any Chaos Stunties alive the whole unit had to move at the pace of the slowest model (3"), but the handlers were ignored during a charge - making the Hellcannon much slower at manuerving than it's own movement would indicate.

Now from what I understand the handlers are always ignored and just kind of come along for the ride, meaning that the Hellcannon is not restricted by the Chaos Dwarf movement anymore.

Rochr
09-07-2010, 16:47
The Hellcannon moves 6", but in 7th if there were any Chaos Stunties alive the whole unit had to move at the pace of the slowest model (3"), but the handlers were ignored during a charge - making the Hellcannon much slower at manuerving than it's own movement would indicate.

Now from what I understand the handlers are always ignored and just kind of come along for the ride, meaning that the Hellcannon is not restricted by the Chaos Dwarf movement anymore.

But you could march it 6" right? Thats what I have been doing atleast :confused:

Djekar
09-07-2010, 16:51
Yeah, you could still march it and it would go 6" (double pace for the short-legged ones). Sorry if that first post was unclear.

Agnar the Howler
09-07-2010, 17:17
What about 15 with HW + S? You can run them 5x3 and get some decent killiness and survivability? I don't think buying 3 more models will break the bank, but I know that it can sometimes.

If that isn't an option I think I might give them Halberds. Even though I feel it's an inferior pairing of mark and weaponry (inferior to the optimal that is, not inferior as in unusable), I also feel like it's the safe(r) middle ground.

Unfortunately it will break the bank, I just can't afford the spend 45pts without sacrificing something. I could drop the Blasted Standard on my warriors, but that opens me up to more shooting (4+ wards against it would help immensely, making my unit nigh unkillable from range due to having a 3+/4++ to all attacks made in the shooting phase) and it all depends on what i'll be facing, which i don't know.

Angelust
09-07-2010, 17:29
I think the synergy with MoT and shields are the only way to make MoT really useful on Warriors. Mark of Khorne and even Mark of Slaanesh are generally more useful I think.

It seems to me that you should either make them very durable, or very killy. And chaos warriors are usually killy enough with 2 attacks at S4 I think.

Agnar the Howler
09-07-2010, 18:09
Then it'll be shields, but are they going to be okay going 6x2? What's your stance on dropping the Blasted Standard for an extra 3 warriors? I don't mind personally but I think they'll suffer against shooty armies without the 4+ ward, but against armies with no shooting, it's 40pts wasted.

If I drop it, i'll probably use the points saved by dropping the halberds and keeping the shields to get them the new banner of flaming attacks; it's not bad for 10pts, and there's only a select few things immune to fire attacks, which are Dragon Princes (but they're cavalry, and don't flaming attacks cause fear in cavalry now?), HE characters with dragon armour and anything with some of the new magic gear that protects against fire attacks.

Would that be an okay move? I'll have 12pts spare without it, which is only 2 more of my tzeentch marauders, a marauder chief or a warrior champion...

Zangor
09-07-2010, 20:14
Can some one please explain this to me...

In the WoC errata it says about generating spells:

ignore "If you roll the same spell twice, roll again".

Does this mean we can have several of the same spell?

Djekar
09-07-2010, 20:20
No.

In the New BRB it tells you that if you roll the same spell that you choose which spell you get, rather than re-roll.

Jericho
09-07-2010, 23:39
Choosing > re-roll

I was always missing one good spell on my L4 w/ spell familiar, and my L2 always seemed to get stuck with 1 and 6 :D

Oberon
10-07-2010, 07:02
So, now hellcannons can march 12" as they have movement of 6 and we ignore handlers? Or do we ignore them?

Valtiel
10-07-2010, 07:28
So, now hellcannons can march 12" as they have movement of 6 and we ignore handlers? Or do we ignore them?

As far as I can read in the new rulebook, it ignores the Handlers for all gameplay purposes so I think they ignore their movement and just use the monster's movement.

Poseidal
10-07-2010, 07:33
With the new magic items, how should I equip my BSB?

Before I had him mounted on a chaos steed with a shield and the Sword of Might and Collar of Khorne. (Tzeentch marked).

Now there are new ward save items, and other enchanted items and weapons what would be useful?

Oberon
10-07-2010, 07:40
That setup still works (with MoT knights especially, to benefit from the MR the most), MoT BSB with armour of destiny gets 3+ ward save but it does eat the whole item allowance. Collar is a bit cheaper than MR 2 item in the rulebook IIRC, so it is still a good buy, when on a horse BSB still has nice armour save. Most important bit is to keep the BSB safe, then to support his unit by killing and/or providing special rules.

Valtiel
10-07-2010, 07:40
With the new magic items, how should I equip my BSB?

Before I had him mounted on a chaos steed with a shield and the Sword of Might and Collar of Khorne. (Tzeentch marked).

Now there are new ward save items, and other enchanted items and weapons what would be useful?

I've been thinking of giving him a great weapon, Mark of Tzeentch and the 4+ Ward Save talisman. Then you have 5 points I believe for something else, I bet you could take the Iron Curse Icon or something for that.

He has killing power, he has better ward save than he has armour save etc. Not sure how well the ward save works now without the good armour save.

Poseidal
10-07-2010, 08:56
How important do you think Magic Weapons will be?

I've been considering the 5+ Ward item and the cheap Magic Hat and running with a Halberd. This will give me the same armour save.

This also leaves me with 10 points for a misc item as well, or just saving 10 points.

Oberon
10-07-2010, 12:30
Exas already have high str, halberds take it to high enough levels so I think magical points should be spent on defence or support instead. New weapons aren't that special (+x to stat y), anyway.

How about the new lores? I've played with lore of shadows for my sorc lord and lore of fire for the lv2 sorc and shadows works great BUT I bought ne magic deck and got to read the lore of death again. It seems the ranges for the spells are not so bad afterall, as the boosted version has ranges of 24" and the casting level isn't too bad for lv4 sorc. The purple sun is almost pit of shades, doom&darkness could help against steadfast (does it?). All in all, fear/terror-augment spell is IMO useless, and besides purple sun the spells harm only one model at a time. Shadow has almost only hexes (though they are good) and pit of shades, I haven't found a use for penumbral pendulum yet, but the smoke&mirrors speciality is often useful instead.

Summary: there's nothing that forces me to change the lore of choice as shadows has served me well, but the other lore has nice spells too. How about some experience from the others? Oh, this is a tournament decision, so opposing armies might be varied.

Also: lore of heavens has 3 spells that kind of tempt me (sorc lord can take lore of heavens!): chain lightning, uranon's thunderbolt, and the comet of course. The new version is devastating with the boosted version especially. The other 4 spells OTOH are so lame that I can't seriously take it, but still...

Shadow is a nice support lore, hexes make the enemy unit either too weak to do anything, or much easier to kill. Pit of shades is good against any non-elven armies, warmachines love this spell. I haven't found penumbral pendulum use for yet, d3 wounds is kinda weak and to abuse the line the sorc would have to be in odd places. Mindrazor is awesome but often not necessary, a deterrent in case of stanks or heavy cavalry come our way. Steed of shadows is great for removing heroes from challenges they don't want to be in, and would combine nicely with the pendulum... More often than not my magic phase consists of casting miasma on a unit I want to beat in CC or prevent from shooting my guys to death (bs1 handgunners aren't so bad) and then rolling for pit of shades with lots of dice, while sidekick may or may not have enough PD to cast a fireball.

If the opposing army is far away and there's no heroes in sight, what can I do with lore of death? Doom&darkness a unit to be panicked away with hellcannon (nice!), that's about it. Come bit closer, and one could always try to roll high with the purple sun, but it is really a close encounters only-thing. I haven't played with death so I can't see too many opportunities here, in the WD battle report Azhag used lore of death to caress the empire heroes to death, not much else. Sniping lore without peer.

Kerill
10-07-2010, 13:52
Lore of death is the best of the rulebook lores available to us. The default spell is very good for sniping and you can maybe get a few extra PD. My second caster (the bsb) will be taking it every time. Taking out the opposing bsb will also make hellcannons a lot more effective btw. The other two sniping spells are also good. Bear in mind that most armies don't have the ease of adding MR and ward saves that chaos do.

Main caster will still be Tzeentch for me.

Oberon
10-07-2010, 14:17
Ok so one vote for death then.
A: LV 4 shadows+lv2 death? I mean, ld 8 all round means that the signature spell is just as good for lv2 sorc as it is for a lord. Other sniping spells do basically the same thing, the stat that protects them just changes. Lore of fire would've been useful pretty much only against T3 shooters or abominations, pit of shades will have to do.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-07-2010, 14:29
I'm still going to go for a Tzeentch main caster, what with the disc, +1 to cast and 3++ possible. For a sidekick, I think I'd be tempted by lore of shadows, just for the buffs and hexes potential really, though I will experiment with death for the sniping.

Nixon

Zaustus
10-07-2010, 15:02
I've been vacillating between Tzeentch and Shadows for my Sorcerer Lord. Even though the rest of the list is Tzeentch, I think I've decided to give Shadows a go for the first game. All of the different hexes look like they could really turn the tide of battles.

Zangor
10-07-2010, 16:25
Im gonna field a lvl4 tzeentch sorcerer. With +1 to cast and +1 to hes ward for only 20 pts i cant bring myself not choose tzeentch. Its still a good lore and i love the gateway, just the thought of how it would look when it opens and swallows an entire unit makes my heart pound :evilgrin:

Cartoon
10-07-2010, 16:54
I take it people are still going to leave the chaos lords at home huh? I suppose sorcerer lords are still that much better with the +4 to cast. Still, I've been trying to think of a decent lord build. Maybe MoT, 5+ ward pendant, Helm o many eyes, and the +2 A or Str sword. A 4+ ward with ASF and a good chance of re-rolling attacks and either 7 Str 5 or 5 Str 7 attacks would be pretty nasty. Toss in word of agony or bloodcurdling roar and you're all set.

I suppose it's just to difficult to pass up on the sorcerer lord though. With all the shooting that's going to be around this edition magic support is probably going to be a must have. Do you think two lvl 2s would be enough support, or is the lvl 4 an auto include?

Angelust
10-07-2010, 16:56
I think Tzeentch has just gotten better this edition.

With the 4+ ward talisman for 45 points, you've basically got

A 3+/3+ flying level 4 wizard with +5 to cast and a decent lore. I think the best part of the Tz caster on disc is that gateway can still be thrown on units without LoS, meaning, the sorcerer is one of the few that can safely stay out of LoS behind a building or something and avoid those sniping death spells.

But I agree, shadows does seem like an incredibly good lore when we're bound to see lots of big infantry blocks now. Having negatives to strength or toughness on 50 models can really take the punch out of them.

Oberon
10-07-2010, 17:00
@Cartoon: yeah, you pretty much need to take lv4 sorc to the game now as he also brings good magic defence to the list, not only offence. Sorc lord is almost as good in CC as other armies lords, at least on the defence. 2 lv2 sorcs used to bring as much power to the field, but now as you add the wizard level to the casting/dispelling roll, lv2 just doesn't cut it anymore. Sure they can work and a sidekick is nice to have, but by leaving the defence for a lv2 wizard, you're almost a whole die behind when you dispel.

Yeah, lore of tz is still good and just got easier+treason will be more useful than it was, but I'm going to try rulebook lores now... So, shadow+death.

Havock
10-07-2010, 18:22
lvl 4 Tzeentch with a Shadow sidekick.

Or Lore of tzeentch level 4 with third eye and nurgle sidekick ;)

Sexiest_hero
10-07-2010, 18:26
Do forsaken still suck, or will they work with the new buff spells?

this is how my 2.5k list is (very rough)

2 DP

3 cheap scorcerers lvl1. one of each god

troll king

trolls for core

12 chaos knights for specials

a warshrine or 2 for rare

I think using spell and war shrines to buff up my trolls and knights and having them charge head on, while the terror causing DPs hit the flanks and do the curb stomp.

thoughts?

Eta
10-07-2010, 18:33
Are you going to field two naked DPs? They won't do much, even when flanking enemy units and killing them is not hard.

Greetings
Eta

Angelust
10-07-2010, 18:45
Yeah, DP are probably the most overprice unit in our list. It just got worse with this edition I think.

Cartoon
10-07-2010, 19:04
Like most other folks, I'm going to run a block of probably 50 marauders of Khorne with GWs. I'm wondering if one block is enough though. Two blocks of 40 might provide more options when it comes to engaging the right enemy units, although I'm also going to try to run 18 warriors of tzeentch and 18 chosen of tzeentch.

I'm thinking it might be a good idea to have one MoK marauder block and one MoT with HW/S. Same thing for the warriors. Make the regular warriors khorne (or nurgle with rage banner) and have the chosen MoT with just HW/S. I don't think I've played a game yet where I didn't have either the ward save or the +1Str bonus on the EotG chart.

MoT marauders could work very well in tandem with knights and chariots, perhaps more so than their khorny brethren. It would take any unit a while to hack through that many little duders who have a 5++, which would give me plenty of time to roll a unit of khorne knights or a couple chariots into flank. They certainly aren't as killy as MoK guys, but they provide some nice synergy with the rest of the force.

Now if only I could find the points for all of this at 2500 I would be set. Thoughts? Maybe ogres are the way to go for support units? I can't bring myself to leave my knights at home though, I like the models too much and have a bunch of them. A unit of 6 or 7 has to come with me or I'll feel like I wasted all my time painting them up.

Sexiest_hero
10-07-2010, 19:10
even with the removal of + to hit big targets? I was under the impression that twothunderstomping flying terror causers would be a good buy in a troll king list :(

Zaustus
10-07-2010, 19:42
Daemon Princes weren't Large Targets anyway. They're still not very good, sadly, but if you want one as a "monstrous" general for your monster-based army, I'd say go for it. Don't take two though; just take the one and kit him up a bit.

Angelust
10-07-2010, 19:59
Yeah, Terror ain't what it used to be, and WoC has lots of good options that do the same thing as a DP but cheaper. Even having Tzeentch exalteds on discs is fine, as they fly around and flail things with great ward saves.

Asymmetric
10-07-2010, 20:16
How do people feel about Woc's special characters in 8th, not just in there own subtle changes, but also in how you build a list around them.

There's been a lot of talk about Throgg but what about the others?

Angelust
10-07-2010, 20:55
I think Archaon is just as potent as ever, but the rest not so much. The problem with him is the new restriction on Lord %.

As is though, he's a 18" LD 10, a BSB, and a monstrous beatstick. I think he's still one of the models from 7th that's able to break units by himself on the right charge.

One possible use for Archaon I considered was Mindrazor on Archaon with Uzhul. 10 WS9 attacks at Str10. He can solo a Stank in 2 turns. If the sword turns on him, he still needs 3s to wound himself, and has a 3+ ward.

I think the rest are overshadowed by lvl 4 sorcerers, and the BSB.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-07-2010, 21:28
I think Archaon is just as potent as ever, but the rest not so much. The problem with him is the new restriction on Lord %.

As is though, he's a 18" LD 10, a BSB, and a monstrous beatstick. I think he's still one of the models from 7th that's able to break units by himself on the right charge.

One possible use for Archaon I considered was Mindrazor on Archaon with Uzhul. 10 WS9 attacks at Str10. He can solo a Stank in 2 turns. If the sword turns on him, he still needs 3s to wound himself, and has a 3+ ward.

I think the rest are overshadowed by lvl 4 sorcerers, and the BSB.

Yeah I'd go with that, I think I'll put him in my 3000pt list (used to run him at 2000, just because he is so hard to kill and pretty decent offensive wise as well), nice idea with Mindrazor, that will chop absolutely everything up.

The best build for a prince is level 4 tzeentch with tendrils, then he is reasonably decent. But still vulnerable to cannons.

Nixon

Angelust
10-07-2010, 21:38
Yeah the Tzeentch prince is not bad, but hard to justify when comparing to a sorcerer on disc with tooled up items list.

The DP is 460 pts base for a lvl4 Sorc DP. The Sorc Lord is around 430 or so when tooled out. I'm not sure the extra combat ability on the prince mitigates the fact that the sorc Lord will be rolling with 3+ ward save and a 3+ armor save, while the Daemon is fluttering around in a loincloth and average 4+ ward save.

Poseidal
10-07-2010, 21:50
What are the optimum unit sizes or builds that are arising or have stayed the same in general now?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-07-2010, 21:52
Yeah the Tzeentch prince is not bad, but hard to justify when comparing to a sorcerer on disc with tooled up items list.

The DP is 460 pts base for a lvl4 Sorc DP. The Sorc Lord is around 430 or so when tooled out. I'm not sure the extra combat ability on the prince mitigates the fact that the sorc Lord will be rolling with 3+ ward save and a 3+ armor save, while the Daemon is fluttering around in a loincloth and average 4+ ward save.

I do agree with you there, the only things going for the prince is a little more close combat ability, access to fury of the blood god for a 2++ against magic, and tendrils of tzeentch for the rerolls. But the sorcerer lord is the more competitive build, just through the sheer survivability possible, which is the most important thing in my book.

Nixon

Havock
10-07-2010, 22:02
BSB on horse, Shield, Mark of Tzeentch, Collar of Khorne and the ASF Sword?

Angelust
10-07-2010, 22:06
Yeah, I have a favorite Belakor model painted like a Tzeentch DP, and he's been mostly shelved in favor of a little Tz Lord on a daemon screamer.

Sometimes I use him anyway just because the model rocks my socks.

Magister_Ordo_Lyrae
10-07-2010, 22:59
so for my cahos steed mounted MoTz bsb with collar of khorne (popular build for obvious reasons) what weapon do people think is best the ASF sword or the sword of battle? 5 attacks or 4 attacks with re-rolls against just about everything?

Poseidal
10-07-2010, 23:05
I don't recall there being an ASF sword? Correct me if I'm wrong.

There's one that gives I10, which isn't quite the same.

Angelust
10-07-2010, 23:20
Sword of Swift Slaying, ASF.

I'd generally rather kit my BSB out for defense rather than pre-emptive offense. I normally just mount him on steed and try to find him some kind of ward save.

Gratan
10-07-2010, 23:38
Wasn't someone going to start a brand new WoC Tactica with 8th and the FAQs out? That way there wont be two competing threads...

Jericho
10-07-2010, 23:40
I'm planning on giving my BSB the 5+ ward save talisman and some random cheap items to fill the rest of the points. With MoT he'll be sitting at 1+/4++ fairly quickly and will be very durable.

Bronze Armor + Dawnstone could make for some very tough characters as well. Ignore KB and poison, and have your re-rollable 1+ or 2+ save ensured against all manner of character hunters.

Did anyone else notice that mortars, flame cannons, etc. are all D3 wounds now? Ironcurse Amulet will be very very useful for keeping characters or units of Trolls/Ogres/whatever that they join alive. Those D3 wounds are gonna hurt.

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 00:06
Everyone is pinging their hopes on marauders which are not survivable enough to ever do anything.

pinguinota
11-07-2010, 00:52
what are you planing taking your bsb mounted on an infantry? because there is no more LoS if there is no the same kind of unit.So i untherstand you are taking him with chaos knights?
if not , canons will smash him.

also, how are you making to give chaos warriors of thz 4+ ward save for shooting? because the parry save is only for close combat?? it would be 5+ also with the icon agains war machine. isnt correct?thanks.

Cartoon
11-07-2010, 01:41
The blasted standard gives a 5+ ward against all missiles. Combine that with MoT and viola, 4+ ward against shooting.

Granted that will only work for one unit, the rest aren't so lucky.

Cartoon
11-07-2010, 01:46
Everyone is pinging their hopes on marauders which are not survivable enough to ever do anything.

In small numbers that is absolutely correct, but when there are 50 of them it takes a few turns to cut them all down. Marauders with MoT and HW/S will take even longer in CC thanks to the ward save. The only thing that might be able to tear them up pretty quick are template weapons, but every shot on them is a shot not on my warriors and chosen so it's a trade off I'll take.

Also, you seem to be pretty down on WOC as whole. Personally, I still think we have quite a few up hill battles but we're hardly the bottom of the pile as you seem to think. Maybe I'm missing something but when you look at the whole picture I think 8th ed has been a big improvement for us. What do you think drags the army down so much?

Witchblade
11-07-2010, 02:32
Yes, pray the enemy shoots at your marauders. Just about any other target is juicier.

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 02:53
In small numbers that is absolutely correct, but when there are 50 of them it takes a few turns to cut them all down. Marauders with MoT and HW/S will take even longer in CC thanks to the ward save. The only thing that might be able to tear them up pretty quick are template weapons, but every shot on them is a shot not on my warriors and chosen so it's a trade off I'll take.

Also, you seem to be pretty down on WOC as whole. Personally, I still think we have quite a few up hill battles but we're hardly the bottom of the pile as you seem to think. Maybe I'm missing something but when you look at the whole picture I think 8th ed has been a big improvement for us. What do you think drags the army down so much?

I think it is very hard to win if you don't take a set kind of army.

You need a lvl 4 sorc and a hell cannon or you are going to lose against a player of equal skill.

Also it is too easy to move around chaos and pluck them off.. this looks like it may change in 8th.

Havock
11-07-2010, 03:20
In small numbers that is absolutely correct, but when there are 50 of them it takes a few turns to cut them all down. Marauders with MoT and HW/S will take even longer in CC thanks to the ward save. The only thing that might be able to tear them up pretty quick are template weapons, but every shot on them is a shot not on my warriors and chosen so it's a trade off I'll take.

Also, you seem to be pretty down on WOC as whole. Personally, I still think we have quite a few up hill battles but we're hardly the bottom of the pile as you seem to think. Maybe I'm missing something but when you look at the whole picture I think 8th ed has been a big improvement for us. What do you think drags the army down so much?

50!?

Ffffuuuuuuuu, I had trouble finishing 20!

Cartoon
11-07-2010, 03:29
Edit^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ exactly, once you start dealing with that many models there are just so many to hack through that even elite units won't put out enough attacks to take them down in even 2 turns.

Yeah I think the random charges really helped WoC, more so than many other armies. Now that infantry have an extended range things like warriors and chosen will not be so easy to avoid, especially if there are large blocks of marauders taking up a lot of the field.

As for the sorc lord and hellcannon, I agree that they are probably the strongest choices we can take and are a decent starting point to build off of. Still, I think now there are quite a few different options to build a viable force. In 7th it was knights/horsemen + magic or things got very difficult. Now infantry seems like the way to go, but most of our infantry units will work well. Marauders and warriors are solid, and ogres and even chosen can now be brought to the table without instantly giving away the game.

Shooting will still hurt, but that's always been our weakness. With infantry we will be able to soak up shooting losses much easier than we could with all cav, and now that charge distances are potentially greater we can cross the board in less time. Our high I and the step up rule virtually guarantee we will be hitting back like a ton of bricks and the ward parry save gives us a whole new level of defense with MoT. Our characters are now even more durable being able to get a 3+ ward save that's not conditional, and the new magic items really allow for some interesting combinations.

I'm not totally sure how well our monsters turned out though. We certainly don't have the equivalent of a T, W 10 steam tank and we may run into trouble against large monsters that are hard to kill. Like you said the hell cannon is going to be a common choice from now on (hell I'm even debating bringing 2).

All in all though I think we're better off this edition than we were in 7th, by quite a bit.

Angelust
11-07-2010, 04:01
I think it is very hard to win if you don't take a set kind of army.

You need a lvl 4 sorc and a hell cannon or you are going to lose against a player of equal skill.

Also it is too easy to move around chaos and pluck them off.. this looks like it may change in 8th.

So are you basing your statements on experience gleaned from 8th edition games or at least 8th edition research?


And your statements need a lot of qualifications; it's very hard to win against whom exactly? I doubt it's very hard to win against every iteration of every army out there.

Also, I know tons of guys who are excellent WHFB players who just don't like playing games with heavy magic. They are very competent tacticians, but they dislike maxing out just one phase of the game. I've played lots of games with guys like that who I am on par with skill-wise, and it wasn't some auto-lose because I didn't have a hellcannon and lvl 4 sorc.

Lastly, much of the "slowness" of chaos infantry lists have been overcome with larger possible charge ranges. Whereas max charge range of a block of warriors used to be 8", it's now a max of 16" on a really lucky roll, or an average of 11.5" on an average roll. That's a BIG difference.

I used to hate playing against Wood Elf Sethalaya lists with infantry WoC in the past, but even then, I won half the games I lost. Same was true for Dark Elf MSU + twin hydra lists. 7th Edition was far worse for infantry WoC than 8th, and still it wasn't an instant-loss.


Just curious, have you been getting in a lot of games of 8th?

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 04:34
Edit^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ exactly, once you start dealing with that many models there are just so many to hack through that even elite units won't put out enough attacks to take them down in even 2 turns.

Yeah I think the random charges really helped WoC, more so than many other armies. Now that infantry have an extended range things like warriors and chosen will not be so easy to avoid, especially if there are large blocks of marauders taking up a lot of the field.

As for the sorc lord and hellcannon, I agree that they are probably the strongest choices we can take and are a decent starting point to build off of. Still, I think now there are quite a few different options to build a viable force. In 7th it was knights/horsemen + magic or things got very difficult. Now infantry seems like the way to go, but most of our infantry units will work well. Marauders and warriors are solid, and ogres and even chosen can now be brought to the table without instantly giving away the game.

Shooting will still hurt, but that's always been our weakness. With infantry we will be able to soak up shooting losses much easier than we could with all cav, and now that charge distances are potentially greater we can cross the board in less time. Our high I and the step up rule virtually guarantee we will be hitting back like a ton of bricks and the ward parry save gives us a whole new level of defense with MoT. Our characters are now even more durable being able to get a 3+ ward save that's not conditional, and the new magic items really allow for some interesting combinations.

I'm not totally sure how well our monsters turned out though. We certainly don't have the equivalent of a T, W 10 steam tank and we may run into trouble against large monsters that are hard to kill. Like you said the hell cannon is going to be a common choice from now on (hell I'm even debating bringing 2).

All in all though I think we're better off this edition than we were in 7th, by quite a bit.

Yes but everyone else now got those bonuses too. Not just chaos, and it is only one bonus attack in the second rank, so this is more of a boost for other armies with cheaper models with low attacks.

Angelust
11-07-2010, 04:46
Sorry Chaos257, I fail to see how that argues your point.

If increased maximum and average charge ranges are across the board, I think that just goes to show that harassment shooting at odd angles and short-medium distances has just been toned down in usefulness. I used to play Wood Elves too, and I know how much Glade Riders can harry a block of M4 troops. However now with greater possible charge distances, greater abundance of terrain, and greater focus on sweeping lines of hordes, it's far harder to hide, flank, and get behind the enemy.


Also, how is this not a boost for Marauders who have cheaper models with low attacks?

Cartoon
11-07-2010, 05:27
Chaos infantry really benefits from 8th ed because we have both really cheap and elite units. They work well with each other in this rule set. Our marauder hordes are there for when outnumbering and soaking up lots of casualties is needed, and our warriors and chosen are there for when you need something with a high armor save that can still put out high Str attacks. Then we have the monstrous infantry for all those situations in between.

It's certainly true that other armies have benefited from the rule changes, but I fail to see how that negates the advantages WoC have gained. We now have a multitude of tools to choose from depending on what the tactical needs are, and with the increased charge range of infantry they're actually going to see combat rather than just being left behind. Granted WoC might not be the absolute greatest army out there, but I think we can certainly go toe to toe with just about any army and have a chance. Every build is going to have a weakness (well, almost); it's just the way the game works. I'm really just missing the point I guess, because I can't see how we're in that bad of shape.