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Lord Dan
09-07-2010, 00:34
Well, things are mighty different now. Obviously we now have a massive list of magic items to choose from, but I'm curious to see what you guys think has changed as far as army mechanics as well.

I find a lot of tactica threads somewhat unusable, as a newcomer could easily have to sift through hundreds of posts to find information. For this reason I'd like to synthesize as many agreed-upon general principles in this original post as we can.

Halelel
09-07-2010, 05:13
Albeit I have a relatively small Dogs of War army in comparison to others (around 2kish points), I think the army will benefit overall from 8th edition rules.

Galloper cannons become almost mandatory now. Lumpin Crook Halfling archers and Braganza Beseigers should find a way into most lists. Big blocks of infantry have always been popular with pikes, with better rules, I think most DoW armies will have multiple blocks of pikes.

Problem is finding the models, of course, haha.

I think the only thing that will really get cut from most lists are the skirmishers (Birdmen, Vespero's Vendetta) and of course expensive cavalry (Voland's Venators, Skink Raiders)

ishoog
09-07-2010, 06:21
I think the only thing that will really get cut from most lists are the skirmishers (Birdmen, Vespero's Vendetta) and of course expensive cavalry (Voland's Venators, Skink Raiders)

The birdmen are definitely way too overpriced for what they do still, but duelists with pistols are still pretty good. Yes they don't get 360 LOS anymore but the extra shooting range could be worth it.

All in all I think the book definitely improved the dogs of war army, we now have a useful list of magic items and the removal of slots means that you can take some of the more powerful models like Azarnil or Lucrenza a lot easier.

Walls
09-07-2010, 06:35
Of course, half the characters count as both A and B... so we'd need an FAQ ruling to say which they belong to.

I've been toying with starting a DoW army myself and this has been one of the biggest hang ups for me.

diggerydoom
09-07-2010, 08:38
The armoured orcs have recieved a big boost.

Arkfatalis
09-07-2010, 13:39
So have the slayer pirates. I reckon they will become a must for most DOW armies. Also, is anyone else severely annoyed about the OK errata? I know I ***** am.

Braden Campbell
09-07-2010, 18:14
I never used any of the O.K. units, so it actually makes no difference to my Estalian Dogs.

As for Asarnil, until an official document tells me otherwise, I am telling people to divide him along his victory point lines - that is, Deathfang costs 330 points of Rare, and Asarnil eats up 130 points of Hero. This means that he can be taken in a 2000 point list.

someone2040
10-07-2010, 14:23
Albeit I have a relatively small Dogs of War army in comparison to others (around 2kish points), I think the army will benefit overall from 8th edition rules.

Galloper cannons become almost mandatory now. Lumpin Crook Halfling archers and Braganza Beseigers should find a way into most lists. Big blocks of infantry have always been popular with pikes, with better rules, I think most DoW armies will have multiple blocks of pikes.

Problem is finding the models, of course, haha.

I think the only thing that will really get cut from most lists are the skirmishers (Birdmen, Vespero's Vendetta) and of course expensive cavalry (Voland's Venators, Skink Raiders)
I'm sorry... but most of this is off the bat completely in my oppinion.

Pikes are possibly the worst unit in the entire army. I won't mathhammer it out or anything, but basically Pikemen come down to this.
The only units they do well against are 'human'-like units, and those end up costing about half the cost of Pikemen. Just compare them to a High Elf Spearmen (Who attack in one less rank, but get far more benefits and are cheaper) and you'll see how silly they look.
8th edition makes them even worse due to stepping up. Pikemen, are definately not the way to go.

As Dogs of War have always done, they key lies in our special slots. You've got Dwarfs and Marauders who are pretty decent troops, although we're paying for them from special rather than core. But they're solid choices.
Halflings are probably more useful than Lumpin Croops now, as you don't really need march and fire or -1 to hit (or paying points for command you don't really need).

Halfling hotpots are an ace way to spend 100 points. Cannons got better as well.

Duellists have pro's and cons attached to them. Pistols now suffer from long range, and the new skirmish formation isn't that great. But they may actually do some damage in combat if they manage to strike using their initiative 4, rather than dying like flies.

Crossbowmen can fire in ranks, cool cool. Marksmen of Miragliano benefit as well, and are BS 4 to boot which should be nice when firing in 2 ranks.

Our Cavalry is cheap like Empire Cavalry. You can either go all out with Volands for some nice supporting punch, or stay cheap with regular Heavy Cavalry.

I think it's a bit dissapointing that Man-Eaters get cut from our list. They were a really useful asset I think, and any of the OK Ogres are better than the vanilla Dogs of War Ogres.

Our characters obviously get a fair bit better with a lot more magic items to use. Paymaster can get a bit more protection (needed, as you probably want him on foot now to allow him to get Look out sir, or only on horse if you intend to stick him in with cavalry). Does add a great deal more flexibility to our lists, and our characters aren't just dead weights anymore and forced into magic.

Overall, I think it's much the same as usual for Dogs of War. Most of the overcosted stuff stays overcosted. There's slight shifts in whats good and whats not as good (I personally think, with the parry nerf to frenzy, Bearmen are not as good as regular Marauders anymore. You pay a high premium for Berog and +1 to hit i first round. Lumpin and Halflings switching spots I think is also another one).

Special characters are interesting if they're your kind of thing. The biggest limitation before was they took up valuable character slots. Precedent from other books is they're just lord choices (For the ones who took a lord and hero). So perhaps they may see a bit of light.

inq.serge
10-07-2010, 14:52
Pikes + midrazor = Ultrafun.

How should a truthsayer/Dark emissary be divided/counted as, Hero or rare?

Arkfatalis
10-07-2010, 17:25
I reckon that although we got a nerf due to the loss of the ogres, the feedback scroll gives a huge boost to alot of armies so this will become a necessity for DOW armies.

Rhaivaen
10-07-2010, 19:46
Loss of Ogres? where does that come from?

Walls
10-07-2010, 20:32
If you are to house rule the 2 slot characters, generally go with the highest of the lord or hero they belong to. That's pretty much how they did it in the other books.

Arkfatalis
10-07-2010, 20:40
Loss of Ogres? where does that come from?

DOW loose the ability to take ogres from the OK due to the errata. You can still use ogres from the pdf but they are overcosted.

Halelel
10-07-2010, 23:55
I'm sorry... but most of this is off the bat completely in my oppinion.



I'm sorry too, that you disagree with me, by agreeing with me on most points :D

As I said, expensive cavalry is out, archers/ranged units are main stays, and cannons are just awesome.

You may find pikemen useless, but I think they will be useful tarpit units. Guess I should ask if you are planning to play with the percentages in 8th? If so, core requirements are down to pikes, crossbowmen, and cavalry. I feel like pikemen can be useful in large blocks with the right items. Agree to disagree I guess.

Skirmishers have been hit hard in this edition, I'll concede vesperos can be somewhat useful against lower initiative units, but for the points? Not worth it since they will most likely be slaughtered.



In regard to splitting characters - I'd just go with what the primary slot is, like for Asarnil, I'd consider him in the Hero slot rather than rare, same with the truthsayer/emissary. I wouldn't hold my breath for a FAQ of any sort to clear this up, just house rule it.

Losing Ogres Kingdoms hurts though, the DoW Ogres are pretty terrible in comparison. Maneaters were also nice options to have.

JackBurton01
11-07-2010, 04:57
I was wondering what is everyone's opinion of paymasters bodyguard now? And do you think they are allowed to take a magic banner other than the War banner now?

Rahveel
11-07-2010, 08:35
What's the feelings on Braganza's Besiegers and Marksmen of Miragliano? The units get pretty spendy, but with the new shooting boost's, both units look quite tasty. Will you be taking any, or going for cheaper crossbowmen?

I'll be using both for now as i generally enjoy using the unique units.

I'm liking the idea of replacing my heavy cav units with more pikes. gotta love those pikes...

I don't have the new book yet, so one thing i was curious on was the comment before on galloper guns being almost mandatory now. Pardon if I'm missing the obvious, but why so? it seems like you could probably squeeze more generic cannons in now that its % based, not slot based.

Gwyddyon
11-07-2010, 14:16
I think the idea with the Galloper Guns is that while percentages have replaced slots, you're limited to a handful of repetitions of Special and Rare units. Galloper Guns will allow you to take more firepower, therefore, since you'll be limited in the number of cannons you can take even though slots are technically gone.

someone2040
11-07-2010, 14:21
I'm sorry too, that you disagree with me, by agreeing with me on most points :D

As I said, expensive cavalry is out, archers/ranged units are main stays, and cannons are just awesome.

You may find pikemen useless, but I think they will be useful tarpit units. Guess I should ask if you are planning to play with the percentages in 8th? If so, core requirements are down to pikes, crossbowmen, and cavalry. I feel like pikemen can be useful in large blocks with the right items. Agree to disagree I guess.

Skirmishers have been hit hard in this edition, I'll concede vesperos can be somewhat useful against lower initiative units, but for the points? Not worth it since they will most likely be slaughtered.



In regard to splitting characters - I'd just go with what the primary slot is, like for Asarnil, I'd consider him in the Hero slot rather than rare, same with the truthsayer/emissary. I wouldn't hold my breath for a FAQ of any sort to clear this up, just house rule it.

Losing Ogres Kingdoms hurts though, the DoW Ogres are pretty terrible in comparison. Maneaters were also nice options to have.
True that I should've reworded my oppinion, since I do agree on some stuff.
You're putting words in my mouth about Vespero Vendetta though, I never said they were useful. Overcosted Dogs of War, has in general, stayed overcosted. There are slight shifts in what is most useful (Halflings and Lumpins, Marauders and Bearmen), but overall it's much the same.

If you want to spend your minimum 25% core on overpointed Pikemen, be my guest. But I would much rather spend it on what you call 'expensive' cavalry. Cavalry may not be the super powers they once were, but they are still very useful shock troops. Voland won't be leaving my army just because he can't break ranks without a 2nd rank anymore. My dogs of war have always had 25% core anyway due to Voland and the Marksmen of Miragliano, so it's not a huge issue for me.

But really, if you want a good tarpit. Look no further than Dwarves? Pikemen aren't a tarpit in the least, they're a glass cannon that for the points you're paying should be made out of gold. So I think you've got your terminology mixed up here... since tarpit units are meant to hold up units, not necessarily doing much damage.

Basically, for 280 points of Pikemen (25, full command), I would rather pretty much any other infantry choice from any other book. Give me 40 empire spearmen instead. The spearmen would win in the war of attrition. Anything better is likely to win even faster due to better stats. Saurus, High Elves, Dark Elves, plough right through Pikemen. Pikes, just aren't cost effective, in the end, they're just a bunch of weaponskill 3 strength 3 attacks, that don't have any defensive options.

Don't get me wrong, every now and then, a situation will pop up where the Pikes will do really well. Maybe you get off a sweet buff spell (Speed of Light, Okkams mind razor), and their offensive power shoots through the roof. But you can't rely on such things to work in your favour. For every time you do something like that, another time they'll be hit by a mortar and half of them will die in one turn.

@Jackburton
My honest oppinion on Paymasters Bodyguard is, they were overcosted before and still are. They're just weaponskill 4, leadership 8 Empire Halberdiers who are stubborn if the Paymaster is around (Not so useful since Halberdiers can just get Steadfast now anyway) . I think Mydas' Bodyguard are a bit nicer since they're base strength 4, so get boosted to strength 5 with their halberds, but regular one's aren't much to speak about.

@Rahveel
Marksmen should be decent. BS 4 is never bad, and now everyone can shoot. It's still a matter of whether you want more weight of fire in 2x as many Crossbows or the BS 4 Marksmen.
Besiegers pay points for their armour, but aren't really any better at shooting. It really comes down to whether you think it's worthwhile for their armour, are they really going to get shot at, and would you rather twice as many Crossbows instead.

JackBurton01
11-07-2010, 14:35
@ Someone I agree with your assement of the bodyguards effectiveness and cost, but and correct me if Im wrong aren't they the only unit that can take a magic banner without the besieger? Or is that just an error in army builder?

Rhaivaen
11-07-2010, 15:42
DOW loose the ability to take ogres from the OK due to the errata. You can still use ogres from the pdf but they are overcosted.

Yea, I read that when you explained it here...simultaneously..lol. but thanks anyway

Lord Dan
11-07-2010, 15:59
Thanks for all your input so far, everyone. I'll be synthesizing as much as I can in the original post later today.



My honest oppinion on Paymasters Bodyguard is, they were overcosted before and still are. They're just weaponskill 4, leadership 8 Empire Halberdiers who are stubborn if the Paymaster is around (Not so useful since Halberdiers can just get Steadfast now anyway) . I think Mydas' Bodyguard are a bit nicer since they're base strength 4, so get boosted to strength 5 with their halberds, but regular one's aren't much to speak about.

Who is "Mydas"? Did I miss an update or something?

JackBurton01
11-07-2010, 17:33
Araby regiment of renown

someone2040
11-07-2010, 21:46
@ Someone I agree with your assement of the bodyguards effectiveness and cost, but and correct me if Im wrong aren't they the only unit that can take a magic banner without the besieger? Or is that just an error in army builder?
I'm not even sure Paymasters Bodyguard can. In my pdf, there is no mention of Bodyguard being able to take a magic banner (or maybe I'm blind). Similarly in my Chronicles as well.
It might be perhaps some Italian GW ruling when they made those magic items to allow them to have a magic banner.

@Lord Dan
JackBurton is mostly correct. He's not really a regiment of renown though, he's a Special Character Paymaster for the Dogs of War. Along with Borgio the Besieger, Lucrezzia Belladonna, Lorenzo Lupo and Ghazak Khan, you can find them in Chronicles 2003 I believe (Or the one that doesn't contain the Dogs of War list).
For one point more, his Bodyguards come with increased strength and initiative. As well as any other boosts they may get from him being in the unit (magical attacks, and potentially +1 to hit).

JackBurton01
11-07-2010, 21:59
It says the paymasters bodyguard can take the war banner, which Was the only common banner in 7 th. So if you take that and the paymaster in the unit they would have +3 CR is their another common banner that would be more effective now?

GlynG
11-07-2010, 22:48
> Galloper cannons become almost mandatory now. Lumpin Crook Halfling archers and Braganza Beseigers should find a way into most lists. Big blocks of infantry have always been popular with pikes, with better rules, I think most DoW armies will have multiple blocks of pikes.

Really? I disagree with ALL of this personally! I don't think any if the units you mention are good (ok, if you really want more than 2 cannons in 2k then yes you have the option to with galloper guns to while other armies don't - but you'd be paying over the odds for sub-par short ranged low power only T6 canons). Pikemen are now probably the single worst unit for their points in the entirety of Warhammer. DoW can still work well, but not the traditional pike heavy build.
Max Halfling Hotpots should be mandatory now - no guessing or partials and they still deny armour saves (specifies such in their rules) while stone throwers don't these days. Their weak crew can't be killed off seperately now either. Good contender for best war machine in the game for its points I reckon.

I have a 2k Dogs of War army and mine includes a grand total of 0 pikemen, I've never taken them. I run a pirate themed army and nearly everything I use got better this edition, sometimes quite a lot. I actually think my list could be reasonably competitive.

> any of the OK Ogres are better than the vanilla Dogs of War Ogres
Are they? I thought the fact we got Thunderstomp made it kinda equal now and infact ours are arguably better than Bulls and Ironguts? True DoW Ogres don't get Ogre Clubs but they're I2 so we clearly want them with Great Weapons anyway. Compared to Ironguts we have 1 less Ld but assuming we don't bother with heavy armour (not worth the points) ours are 7pts cheaper each and just as killy. Plus our standards and champions are 10pts each rather than 20pts for the OK versions.

> And do you think they are allowed to take a magic banner other than the War banner now?
No, sadly not as the wording specifies them being able to take the 'War Banner' rather than a more general 'magic banner'. You could ask your friendly game opponents if they'll let you use a different one possibly, I certainly intend to continue using my Leadbelchers in my DoW like the original intent so long as my opponents aren't anal about it. There again Paymasters Bodyguard aren't an especially good choice in any case.

I've thought of a number of intriguing possibilities:
* Mindrazoring a horde halfling spearmen formation for the fun of it? They have Ld8 and I5.
* We get characters included in our RoR units and some of our standard bearers are also named characters too - imagine the possibilities of using buff all characters within 12" with a boost type spells e.g. the spell giving +3S and +3 attacks, giving Golgfag 9 x WS5 S8 attacks and Skaff 8 x WS3 S7 attacks. Al Muktars Desert Dogs have a whopping 3 characters that can all be area buffed and the thought of Blind Ibm having 3 S6 attacks is amusing but they're probably still not worth their points. Beorg, Lumpin and Ruglud's units also have 2 characters in each too so could make use of this.
*Magic spam? We can get combat characters from our regiments so could afford to max out mages with the cool new lores. I like how our wizards are identical to Empire ones except how ours are 5pts cheaper.
* Cursed Company got a boost - 30 of them for 505 is still overpriced but in horde formation they can all get to fight now. The new fear rules mean if their enemies fail they now have WS1 and so we hit them on 3+ which will help kill more. They could be good targets for various buff spells too I reckon and spells like the +3T one could help keep Richter alive.
30 x Long Drongs in horde formation rock. That's a lot more longer ranged shooting and stand and shooting and many more attacks when they are in combat.

> core requirements are down to pikes, crossbowmen, and cavalry

You forget my favourite and most taken one; duelists with pistols. I'm happy with 12" range shots and getting to strike first more with I4 now.

someone2040
11-07-2010, 23:37
It says the paymasters bodyguard can take the war banner, which Was the only common banner in 7 th. So if you take that and the paymaster in the unit they would have +3 CR is their another common banner that would be more effective now?
Ahh yes, I see it now. Hidden away in the part about standards, musicians and champions.
Unfortunately, it's very specific. Probably because at the time, the War Banner was the only magic banner available.
If your friends are fine with it, I think it's fine to take any magic banner.

@GlynG
I think it's hard to say our Ogres are better than OK Ogres. I mean, our Ogres cost the same as Bulls, both get Stomp, but OK Ogres have Ogre Clubs and Bull Charge. Likewise on Ironguts, you may skimp on the armour if you want but the Guts still have Leadership 8 as well. So I'd hardly say our Ogres are better... but it's not like they're garbage either.

ftayl5
12-07-2010, 07:36
I think (note think) that Duellists are actually quite useful now. A unit of 10 guarding a flank - 10 Strength 4 armour piercing shots at 12"? yes please
Followed by 15 I4 attacks? yes please EDIT: Oh yeah, they would have got that before...
I don't see Vesperro's Vendetta's as being particularly useful compared to Pistol Duellists

Now I don't have a DoW army, but I've always wanted to do one. Though I was convinced 8th ed would the death of DoW, maybe there is hope still :)

@ GlynG - A pirate themed army? What do you take for Core as I honestly don't see anything but Duellists as being 'Piratey' in the core section.
Elaborate. Do you just take Duellists? That would be very interesting.

GlynG
12-07-2010, 09:06
@ GlynG - A pirate themed army? What do you take for Core as I honestly don't see anything but Duellists as being 'Piratey' in the core section.
Elaborate. Do you just take Duellists? That would be very interesting.I also allow myself crossbowmen too - cutlesses and pistols may be the characteristic weapons for pirates, but real world pirates did use crossbows and handguns and the like too (I mix an occasional handgun amongst my crossbow regiments models for more ragtag variety while it still being clear what they are). I do have more pistol duelists than crossbowmen, though I need to play some games with the list to see what ratio of one to the other and in what unit sizes works best (I've had a break and not played Warhammer since 6th edition times).

I also include halflings, ogres, rogue wizard(s) and a character on a pegasus in the army, which, while not traditionally associated with pirates, would be incredibly useful for piracy - being able to fly high above the seas, scouting out enemy boats and islands from up high - and I feel would be used by pirates in a world where flying horses existed.

I have a crazy idea for the army to heavily convert a (possibly forge world) giant to be walking on all fours with a big pirate boat strapped to his back (with chunks taken out of the boat's underside so it fits there). It'd bristle with pirates and guns but these would just be for show and it would just count as a normal giant in game terms. It'd be a massive undertaking but I'm a good converter and reckon I could pull it off. I'll do the rest of the army first and save it for last if I'm feeling up for it I think.

Lastly (and apolagies for going a bit off topic from tactics here) does anyone know if there are any UK tournaments that allow DoW armies these days? I understand official GW ones don't but I'm hoping some of the indy ones might, but I'm out of the loop with anything bar the Epic Armageddon tournament scene.

JackBurton01
16-07-2010, 22:16
I was what magic items and lores people are looking at taking in this edition?

w3rm
17-07-2010, 00:00
Armour of destiny I can see being taken mandatory on the paymaster.

And is it just me or does Asarnil seem to be a rare choice that uses a hero slot? Therefore he would come out of the rare percentage?

Jericho
17-07-2010, 01:30
I really think we'll have to get off our butts and come up with a Dogs of War project like they did with the Adepticon Chaos Dwarfs. The rules are pretty fractured right now (split up among a bunch of books and whatnot) and it would be pretty awesome to consolidate and revise a few things to line them up with current rules better. The Manflayers are a good example of this, their rules reference a lot of stuff from the old Dark Elf book (why did they ever consider it a good idea to say "see dark venom from the DE book" instead of just "they have Poisoned Attacks with all their weapons") ...

Anyway I think it might be fun to come up with the tweaks and suggestions to make the army a bit better. I still don't think it would take much, as I have no intention of making them the next Dark Elves or anything. Just something more on the level with Empire would be great.

Anyway in slightly more short term, I'll probably keep my army relatively the same. Maybe bulk up units and trim some of the repeated ones (same as everyone else is doing). The need for cav is reduced which is fine by me, I never had many anyway. But fitting 2 cannons and a hot pot into the same army is now valid and with the new common magic items and boosted spell lores I won't necessarily need to take a Truthsayer every game to have a decent general. So it won't be so hard to make an army with decent monster controlling ability anymore, hooray :D

Random site note: does anyone have the 2004 Annual handy? I only have the 2002, and I'm trying to figure out if the Halfling Hot Pot is the only stone thrower in the game to ignore armor saves. Looks like it does :) S3 no armor saves, but lacking the d6 wounds, is a very interesting tradeoff from the traditional stone thrower. And with the merged profiles they're pretty much as easy to shoot down as before, so that's a good balancing point. They are incredible bang for your buck, but they will die very easily to any kind of shooting pressure at all.

agger
18-07-2010, 19:06
I'm caught at my parents' house without my new rulebook present, but got to thinking after reading through the DOW list. What is the ruling on barding and march moves? If barding prevent marching then DoW heavy cavalry suddenly has a advantage over other riding units :)

Sandals
18-07-2010, 20:52
barding is, as ever, -1 M. nothing against marching that i can see

__ALEX__
31-07-2010, 08:44
Who is "Mydas"? Did I miss an update or something?

Mydas The Mean, special paymaster character who had a bodyguard unit.

Jericho
31-07-2010, 08:51
The advantage our cav enjoy is being cheaper than most ... not much but it helps if you want a big unit of 10-15 for rank breaking duty. Not having to pay like 400 pts for that unit is nice. I've seen people run units like 10 Chaos Knights w/ mark, command and banner. Lots of fun when you vaporize them with magic on turn 1, and you know that was like a third of his army :)

Commissar Vaughn
04-08-2010, 16:08
DOW bat rep: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270093

Might be some points of interest for DOW generals....

Donnie Darko
07-08-2010, 04:55
The bearmen are now spectacular.

All the rule changes greatly benefit them, and their magic items are swank. Cursed Company and armoured orcs round out everything nicely.

Sure the core is a bit crap, but that can still be all knights/Volands, plus some magic, cannons and some complimentary magic should be ok in mid sized games.

Quite frankly I'd always be terrified of the Bearmen in horde formation, and would simply soild myself if they gained a nice strength buff.... A cool 60 attacks on the charge hitting on 2/3s, splendiferious, and you have a wicked hero thrown in on the cheap.

It's too bad they eliminated DOW for others with the Errata, these guys would make a great horde for anyone :P

Donnie Darko
07-08-2010, 05:09
Also, against certain enemies Pike's are still a very useful option.

They still have the ASF and fight in 4 ranks rule. So against opponents that cannot easily thin them with missile fire before combat (lizardmen and ogers come to mind) they would be pretty effective (23 odd attacks re-rolling misses).

Something like 25 Pizzaros wouldn't be a horrendous idea if you knew your opponents before hand.

Kulgur
10-08-2010, 13:45
Also, against certain enemies Pike's are still a very useful option.

They still have the ASF and fight in 4 ranks rule. So against opponents that cannot easily thin them with missile fire before combat (lizardmen and ogers come to mind) they would be pretty effective (23 odd attacks re-rolling misses).

Something like 25 Pizzaros wouldn't be a horrendous idea if you knew your opponents before hand.

Pikes don't have ASF, they have "ASF unless your opponent has ASF, and only in the first round of combat"

Jericho
10-08-2010, 18:28
And only if charged. To the front :p

R3pr3ssor
10-08-2010, 23:58
I would think that units of pikemen 10 wide, and 6 deep, would be very effective, if expensive. 61 attacks is ridiculously good.

Donnie Darko
11-08-2010, 03:16
Sure, it's only one round, but frankly, if you're not seeing the enemy off with your fully ranked block (25 ish) then you've accepted a very poor charge.

Also, the ASF limitation is kinda meaningless, since the only thing en mass that negates it is HE, and all other infantry is pretty much crap vs HE unless they are expressly designed to be effective by getting stuck on the enemies blades...

In an all comers list I'd say they are meh, but selectively they still have their uses (especially if you one hit wonder a big block with Mind Razor)

Jericho
11-08-2010, 03:37
I still say that Mind Razor is completely overkill. Wild Form from Lore of Beasts would be plenty devastating against most foes. S4 T4 would give Pikemen enough edge in most fights and it can help keep units alive longer even before combat ensues.

someone2040
11-08-2010, 07:24
I would think that units of pikemen 10 wide, and 6 deep, would be very effective, if expensive. 61 attacks is ridiculously good.
Ridiculous waste of points that's what. Far better to have 2 Pike units of 30 rather than 1 big huge one of 60.
It's not worth it going horde just to get one more extra rank of attacks. You already attack in 5 ranks, do you really need to essentially double your unit size to attack in more.
After casualties (Which Pikemen will take), you're basically left with only 5 fighting ranks anyway.

Kulgur
11-08-2010, 16:31
Pikes strike after ASF but before I in the first round of combat, so you'd get full attacks in the first round...

With your 600-700pt unit, with low maneuvability, where most of the benefits only work when attacking to the front.