PDA

View Full Version : Behold, praise the almighty T10 stem tank! Now, let's think about the way to kill it.



Pages : [1] 2

Sinsigel
09-07-2010, 10:57
The army-wide errata for 8th shows that the empire steam tank now has T10 W10. It's immune to charateristic tests(except I test), and only spell with strength value can damage it. This means the basic spell of 8th lore of metal, which doesn't have definite strength value, is useless against this big chunk of imperial panzer tank.:cries:

While dwarfs may try to shoot it down with cannon(but will still take some time), armies with no S10 warmachine will definitely suffer against them. I, playing high elves, found only one decent solution so far.: Lore of Shadow. Wither(decreasing T by D3), Pendulum of whatsover(pass I test or suffer S10 D3 wounds), Okkam's Mindrazor(LD becomes S when rolling to wound) seems quite decent against it. A unit of DP with armour-piercing banner and fighty lord might stop the panzer in short time. But again, this stems from my short insight. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Wednesday Friday Addams
09-07-2010, 10:59
Strength 3 bow fire.

Godgolden
09-07-2010, 11:06
good luck WOC, we have the hellcannon,

that and suicide characters with the glaive of putrifaction.

Vombaticus
09-07-2010, 11:34
Well considering that any S can wound any T on a roll of 6 in 8th, a lot of S3 bows would be pretty effective:D

Pravus
09-07-2010, 11:39
Lord knows - it's a got a 1+ armour save and its unbreakable as well. If my maths is right (and there's a good chance it isn't) BS3, S3 shooting will need around 72 shots to get, on average, 1 unsaved wound on it :wtf:

Armour piercing and higher strength shots reducing armour save all help I suppose. I just feel my heart sinking when someone lifts it out of their case.

Fideru
09-07-2010, 11:42
Lord knows - it's a got a 1+ armour save and its unbreakable as well. If my maths is right (and there's a good chance it isn't) BS3, S3 shooting will need around 72 shots to get, on average, 1 unsaved wound on it :wtf:

Armour piercing and higher strength shots reducing armour save all help I suppose. I just feel my heart sinking when someone lifts it out of their case.

I got 79 BS3, S3 bowfire shots to get one unsaved wound. But mind you, your point still stands.

It seems cannons are the best bet, but then again, not everyone gets cannons.

Pravus
09-07-2010, 11:56
Yeah - maths; not my strong point. Ladies however ...

I think my modus operandi might be - "ignore it and hope it blows up"

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-07-2010, 11:56
I got 79 BS3, S3 bowfire shots to get one unsaved wound. But mind you, your point still stands.

It seems cannons are the best bet, but then again, not everyone gets cannons.

It's definitely 72 shots, but that would mean 720 in total! I can't actually think of a reasonable way for either my WoC or VC to kill it, though my dwarfs should be ok. Definitely time to get my Hellcannon into my WoC army I think.

Nixon

Vsurma
09-07-2010, 11:58
What? really, why would they make them so much better?

Vsurma
09-07-2010, 11:59
Yeah - maths; not my strong point. Ladies however ...

I think my modus operandi might be - "ignore it and hope it blows up"

With 10 wounds it will never destroy itself.

Ultimate Life Form
09-07-2010, 12:04
What about the new Lore of Metal? I know the Tank isn't affected by spells that much but I'm not sure about the details (not an EM player), isn't there something in the Lore that will crack it?

Pravus
09-07-2010, 12:11
Do you know, I thought I'd read something about it not being effected by strength 0 attacks, which lore or metal spells are. Now I'm thinking I've imagined it as I can't find it in the FAQ at all.

yay lore of metal!

Arnizipal
09-07-2010, 12:15
While dwarfs may try to shoot it down with cannon(but will still take some time), armies with no S10 warmachine will definitely suffer against them. I, playing high elves, found only one decent solution so far.: Lore of Shadow. Wither(decreasing T by D3)
Wouldn't it be immune to this spell as it has no S value?

Sinsigel
09-07-2010, 12:18
Wouldn't it be immune to this spell as it has no S value?

The immunity applies only against direct damage, not hex, I believe.

Wednesday Friday Addams
09-07-2010, 12:20
A spell needs a strength value to be able to work on a steam tank.

Sinsigel
09-07-2010, 12:39
A spell needs a strength value to be able to work on a steam tank.

I thought 'damage' didn't necessarily include altering characteristics.




Or, am I just playing with words out of misunderstanding?

Wednesday Friday Addams
09-07-2010, 12:43
I don't have my empire book with me but I thought it says that spells can only affect a steam tank if they have a strength value.

Pravus
09-07-2010, 12:44
That's where I read it! Shazbott :(

Fact is, short of artillery, you'll be hard pressed to get the volume of shots on it to make a meaningful impact. If it gets into combat with you, chances are you'll lose eventually even with Steadfast. In the mean time while you're doing the panzer-passo-doble with the bloody thing everything else in the Empire army is running riot.

Avoid it - kill the squishy stuff whilst you wait for it to explode or get bored. What I wouldn't give to be able to arm shades with Gammon bombs

Oberon
09-07-2010, 12:47
Well, s10 is almost enough anyway, so penumbral pendulum will have to do by itself then... How far has the power creep gone, when in 1-10 system s10 isn't really enough anymore?

fubukii
09-07-2010, 12:57
i hope they faq that the lore of metal spells can effect it.

Clanrat
09-07-2010, 13:04
personally, as skaven, id say risk it with the Fellblade :) s10, d6 wounds per hit (small drawbak of probably killing your own warlord and its highly situational, but skitterleap should help with that.........

fubukii
09-07-2010, 13:26
This new steam tank change i feel as nerfed so many armies competitive edge in a tournament scene. HUGE boost to empire though,

lord opium
09-07-2010, 13:31
For VC just charge it with 3 wraiths, as they are ethereal it can't hurt them :)

What about Mork wants ya?

Don't skaven still have the brass orb?

Reinier
09-07-2010, 15:13
Lore of metal has nog given strengt. Every time you cast, the strenght is relative to the armour save. So it has a Strengt, because ot has amrmour save of 1+. But you have to selet your lore when you build your army and angainst beastmen, Woodelves, deamons etc you wont have any strengt so the lore sucks against them.

silks
09-07-2010, 15:15
Heroic Killing Blow will 1 shot it
Also, it's still rubbish once it's taken a few wounds and (if I'm correct) you no longer need to get it below half wounds to get points (I could be wrong - I only had a flick through the rules last night)

Khal
09-07-2010, 15:41
Heroic Killing Blow will 1 shot it
Also, it's still rubbish once it's taken a few wounds and (if I'm correct) you no longer need to get it below half wounds to get points (I could be wrong - I only had a flick through the rules last night)

AFAIK no more points for half-wounded units/heroes/monsters!!

And lore of metal DONT have any strength value. It just wound with "X" result.

Malorian
09-07-2010, 15:55
Ways to beat the stank:

-cannons
-allied cannons
-stone strowers
-allied stone throwers
-high str dwarf bolt thowers (3X rune of penetrating for the win!)
-auto wound items (rune fang and waaagh cleava still own it)
-items where str = toughness
-items that make it take ld tests
-super killing blow
-high str attacks (you might need a 6 to wound but at least you be cutting down the armor)
-terrain (only fails on a 1 but at that point it's probably going to be stuck there)


In the end it's still a machine that typically harms itself once per game, one that no longer autobreaks you by fear, and once it has taken a few wounds it's basically out of the game.

theSkullduggery1
09-07-2010, 16:20
I play WoC, I've been trying to think of a way to kill it for a while and sure enough there is already a thread talking about it.

I've realized that even heroes and lords (even with the +3 strength blade) will be wounding on 6s, therefore most of them have under 6 attacks which means 1 wound which may be saved.

For units...
Marauder horde GW, MOK...I think 4 (maybe 5) fit into base contact, so at most 21 attacks 3.5 wounds 1.167 getting past armour (not going to cut it with how fast they will die).

Ogres with GW, MOK...3x2 formation 22 attacks (if champ). 3.667 wounds with 1.833 getting past armour. Although this unit is 320 points, to do less than 2 wounds per turn!

I tried with dragon ogres too to see if the extra strength helps get past the AS, but the extra attacks from the second rank are more important.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-07-2010, 16:21
Lore of metal has nog given strengt. Every time you cast, the strenght is relative to the armour save. So it has a Strengt, because ot has amrmour save of 1+.


The AS is the required to wound roll. There is no strength involved.

Panzeesmasha
09-07-2010, 16:23
Mork Wants ya is a good shout... you might get jammy and cause a few wounds on it. Roll a 6, then pass ALL 4+ to wound rolls. It's a long shot but i'd be a good way to put a couple of wounds on it at least.

For orcs, you also have rock lobbers which are s9 if they hit it bang on and do multiple wounds (which it won't save). Other than that, it's a struggle. What's a pain is that even with S10 you're wounding it only on 4+ s!!

Edit: Actually, just noted, as Malorian points out, Waaaagh Cleava will own it. Auto wounds with no save. It's just a pity that, because it is a 100pts, you rarely see it in a 2000pt all-comers list.

hungry hungry hormagaunt
09-07-2010, 16:26
Skaven should be fine given the amount of stuff they have that does D3 or D6 wounds - Doomwheel lightning bolts in particular seem like a solid way to put some damage on the Stank. Hm, can you one-shot it with Cracks Call or the Brass Orb?

Djekar
09-07-2010, 16:38
The Waaagh! Cleeva + Orc Boss + Boar is looking better and better.

Rochr
09-07-2010, 16:44
*Stares at Steam Tank*
*Looks in WoC army book*
*Scratches head*
......
GATEWAY!!111

Malorian
09-07-2010, 17:00
The Waaagh! Cleeva + Orc Boss + Boar is looking better and better.

Unless that orc is in a unit of boars, the cannon on the stank would make short work of him...


Just put it on a savage orc warboss and smile :)

stainawarjar
09-07-2010, 17:05
Just charge it with Greasus Goldtooth ;)

Godgolden
09-07-2010, 17:35
gateway wont work if you roll str 11+

thus you have to get incredibly lucky to get str 10 hits, which wound on 4+ still...

a perfect roll is 12 str 10 hits, and thats still not going to kill it unless you roll 10 4+'s.

yeah they twisting the knife in WOC's side.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 17:48
Isn't str11+ still a str value?

Godgolden
09-07-2010, 17:52
no, its a caviat, removes the unit instead of str hits, something which the stupid machines immune too because of plot armour.

(its effectively immune to the warp...)

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 18:01
-cannons
-allied cannons
-stone strowers
-allied stone throwers
-high str dwarf bolt thowers (3X rune of penetrating for the win!)
-auto wound items (rune fang and waaagh cleava still own it)
-items where str = toughness
-items that make it take ld tests
-super killing blow
-high str attacks (you might need a 6 to wound but at least you be cutting down the armor)
-terrain (only fails on a 1 but at that point it's probably going to be stuck there)


Looks like High Elves should just pack up their army then when they see 2 of those across the table.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 18:03
A unit of spearelves with mindrazor should be amongst the best CC units to fight a stank with? Stardragon/starlance/lots of bolt throwers. HE get 5 bolt throwers in 2k games, and one more for lord...

Skyros
09-07-2010, 18:06
i hope they faq that the lore of metal spells can effect it.

Er, why? The basic spell would be guaranteed to take the steamtank out of the fight in one casting. Does that sound balanced to you?

Sinsigel
09-07-2010, 18:07
A unit of spearelves with mindrazor should be amongst the best CC units to fight a stank with? Stardragon/starlance/lots of bolt throwers. HE get 5 bolt throwers in 2k games, and one more for lord...

Mindrazor has been the issue of controversy because it seems to be implying that armour saves aren't modified by the altered Strength.


Er, why? The basic spell would be guaranteed to take the steamtank out of the fight in one casting. Does that sound balanced to you?

Uhm......but T10 W10 doesn't sound pleasant neither.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 18:10
I'm going to repost something I posted in another thread to people who were asking why the steamtank was T10.

Look at everything the steamtank lost going from 7e to 8e.

-any strength can wound it on a six now
-It's a chariot, so can now be poisoned. But it's still hit automatically in CC
-Terror greatly reduced
-No longer removes flanks
-All cannons do D6 wounds, making it more vulnerable to cannon fire
-Plenty of magic buff spells that can make the unit the steamtank is fighting very strong (striking at strength equal to leadership, +1 to wound roll, etc) The steamtank, being immune to buff spells, can't benefit from any of this.
-Stepping up means the steamtanks impact hits are far less powerful
-Two rows of attacks means the steamtank is facing far more attacks back than before
-Steadfast means large infantry blocks aren't going to run away just because the steamtank did a bunch of impact hits.

The steamtank, pre FAQ, was absolutely positively not worth taking ever to an 8th ed game. It would either die horribly or spend all game mired fighting an infantry block 1/2 its points value.

With T10...I still think it's not worth taking (much better ways to spend 300 points imo) but at least it's not incredibly obvious that its a waste of points.

Note that the steamtank is not the only T10 unit out there, and some of them have a 4+ ward save.

Many armies have had to resign themselves to the fact that there are units out there they can't destroy in CC and can't reliably magic/shoot to death - that's what a tarpit is for.

Fortunately, the steamtank in 8th ed is easier to tarpit than ever before. Any block of cheap ranked infantry will have more ranks than the steamtank (who has 0 ranks) and thus be stubborn. They should also cost far less than the steamtank. So if you play it right, you should be able to tie up the steamtank for the entire game with a unit a fraction of its point value. If you play it wrong, the steamtank spends the whole game tied up with one of your elite units slowly grinding it away when you really want them to be doing something else. Sounds balanced.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 18:12
Uhm......but T10 W10 doesn't sound pleasant neither.

The W10 is retarded, I'll give you that. It should have ~5 wounds and the steampoint rules adjusted accordingly. It's dumb that it only takes a couple wounds to render the steamtank virtually immobile, but then you have to slog through another 6 or so T10 1+ AS wounds to actually kill the thing. It's an annoying poorly designed unit that I hope is overhauled significantly in the 8th ed empire book. I don't think it's overpowered. It might be undercosted, perhaps, along the lines of the Hydra. If it is, it's nice to see an army other than the DE get in on the 'ridiculously undercosted unit' action.

I also don't like the rule in 8th were you don't get half points anymore.

Spinocus
09-07-2010, 18:13
Prior to the 8th ed FAQ Jezzails were a Skaven's best friend versus Stanks. A unit of 5-10 could reliably put 1, possibly 2 wounds on a Stank per turn. Now Skaven players are going to be in big trouble if they rely on Jezzails to wound a Stank. With those STR 6 AP shots needing 6s to wound (seems even more ridiculous when written down) the percentages weigh overwhelmingly in favor of the Stank. The good news is once wounded the Stank needs 5+ to save... but getting those 6s to hit is the problem. With BS3 10 Jezzails need 5s to hit at long range (no more +1 vs Large Targets), of which maybe 3 shots will reliably hit the target. After that you have a 42% chance of scoring one wound, 7% chance at two and less than .5% of three!

However Skaven players are also very lucky in that we have two alternatives that can reliably put wounds on a Stank; Poisoned Wind Mortars and Poisoned Wind Globadiers. Neither unit requires that you roll against the target's Toughness to wound it. If the PWM's template hits the Stank roll either a 4+ (under the hole) or a 5+ to wound with no armor saves. PWGs simply roll to hit against their BS and then need a 4+ to wound, regardless of the target's T... again with no armor saves.

Yeah, we still have the Brass Orb but that's a one shot deal that is subject to the scatter dice. Any Skaven player actually counting on that 50 pt wonder to take out a Stank is either desperate or delusional... or both.

Edit: I have no idea what my Lizards are going to do against that thing now that it's T10. It's not as if the LM typically have a few expendable tar pit units lying around to waste against a Stank.

Kalandros
09-07-2010, 18:13
no, its a caviat, removes the unit instead of str hits, something which the stupid machines immune too because of plot armour.

(its effectively immune to the warp...)

The SPELL has a strength value thus ALL its effects work on it.
Even if the S Value becomes '11' or '12' - the steam tank is not immune to that. It goes byebye.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 18:14
Not worth taking you say? WoC had little ways of destroying one in 7ed, and it didn't change in 8ed pre-FAQ either. I've played against double stanks a few times now, great cannons remove hell cannons very quickly and if bloodcurling roar doesn't roll amazingly well they are going to hit. Striking the flank and winning, marauders lose their frenzy, warrior's just die horribly. With T10, my exa is just as useless as his s4 underlings (ok a bit better armour penetration) instead of 3x wounding chance...

Tarpitting might be chance for skaven or VC, empire doesn't have to as they can just shoot it, but others are not so fortunate.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 18:19
There are ways to shoot down the steamtank. You don't need to deal 10 wounds, just a couple.

But really, trying to kill the steamtank is a waste of time with the new rules for terror, breaking ranks, and steadfast. Just tarpit it with a unit of cheap infantry who are a fraction of the steamtanks points. They can reliably tarpit it all game. The steamtank has the killing power of something like 8 greatswords. Use your shooting on other parts of the army that can't be so easily neutralized.

Just about everyone except elves can tarpit the tank. A brettonian hero with the heroic killing blow virtue can blow it away in a single round of combat. Elves will have to rely on magic. Try the one where the steamtank automatically fails an I test and then takes a S10 D6 wounds hit.

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 18:20
A unit of spearelves with mindrazor should be amongst the best CC units to fight a stank with? Stardragon/starlance/lots of bolt throwers. HE get 5 bolt throwers in 2k games, and one more for lord...

Edit: I'm dumb and it's early.

fall3nang3l
09-07-2010, 18:21
Ya my VC are screwed. Not only do I have NO SHOOTING AT ALL, but my main opponent runs 2 Steam Tanks......


Wow 34 people are viewing this thread

Skyros
09-07-2010, 18:24
I don't understand.

S8 vs. T10 is still 6s to wound. There's no difference between Mindrazor'd Spears and regular Spears. lol

S8 = no armor save.


Ya my VC are screwed. Not only do I have NO SHOOTING AT ALL, but my main opponent runs 2 Steam Tanks......

So tarpit the steamtank with 20-30 zombies. Problem solved. The steamtank can do 4 steampoints safely at max health, which is 4D3 hits. So maybe 8-10 dead zombies in his turn, depending on zombie CR and how much they lose combat by. And none dead in your turn.

Seriously people, you deal with certain units differently in 8th ed compared to 7th.

Draconian77
09-07-2010, 18:27
Something which Skyros has yet to answer however, is why only the Steamtank received this massive boost when all other monsters took the exact same nerf to the face. (Terror, ranks, steadfast, step up, etc)


Note that the steamtank is not the only T10 unit out there, and some of them have a 4+ ward save.

That's a strawman. Those other units have other glaring weaknesses. (Lower armour saves, lower wounds, inability to charge or shoot Cannonballs! :eyebrows:)


Many armies have had to resign themselves to the fact that there are units out there they can't destroy in CC and can't reliably magic/shoot to death - that's what a tarpit is for.

I'm sorry, but that is just an outright fallacy. All units could be realistically destroyed by entries from other army books, the Steamtank is just virtually immune to all but Cannons.

Tarpits are an option for dealing with tough units. However, they should not be a requirement.


Fortunately, the steamtank in 8th ed is easier to tarpit than ever before. Any block of cheap ranked infantry will have more ranks than the steamtank (who has 0 ranks) and thus be stubborn. They should also cost far less than the steamtank. So if you play it right, you should be able to tie up the steamtank for the entire game with a unit a fraction of its point value. If you play it wrong, the steamtank spends the whole game tied up with one of your elite units slowly grinding it away when you really want them to be doing something else. Sounds balanced.

Something which you forgot to mention is that the potential risk to the Stank owner is virtually 0. (In terms of Vp's) The risk for the other player, however, is still X. (Where X is higher than 0. :D)

In addition to that, the Empire have multiple large template weapons perfect for destroying Steadfast infantry blocks. Empire lists with multiple Steamtanks and multiple Mortars will soon put paid to any tarpit plans you may have had. (Remember, the Stank can fire its no-partials, no-armour saves gun in combat aswell!) T10 is a real balance issue and I fully expect GW to Errata the Steamtank again within a year.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 18:27
It's only d3 wounds, and first you have to roll that 4+ to wound (with a s10 hit!).
Again, WoC has basically no shooting, so stank will get through and empire player can use it as a tarpit too. If he hits anything with a stank, it won't move anywhere the rest of the game, giving him lots of time to move the rest of his army for a killing blow. Against cannons there can be no hellcannons, you'll get 1 max 2 turns of shooting against it, so you better not scatter, AND roll 4+ (with a str 10 hit!!!), and then not roll that one or two to actually make a difference. Riiight.

WoC cannot afford to give up it's few ranked up units to hold a stank the whole game, especially as it is the stank that initiates the combat=keeps shooting until you don't have ranks anymore, charges to the flank so you can't even strike back well enough (=you lose=no frenzy).

"But he just used 300p model to hold your 250p unit, so you win." Well, no. The marauder unit is actually worth more for WoC=marauders are underpriced, in any case empire player is winning when he stops the unit on its tracks and prepares to kill it later.

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 18:37
Wow 34 people are viewing this thread

That's because this is the most ass-hat retarded ruling I've ever seen in 10 years.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 18:39
Something which Skyros has yet to answer however, is why only the Steamtank received this massive boost when all other monsters took the exact same nerf to the face. (Terror, ranks, steadfast, step up, etc)

No, I answered it. You just didn't like my answer. I said that other large monsters like flying dragons, hydra, ancient stegadon, HPA, doomwheel, were better buys than the steamtank. Thus, even though they also went down, they remain decent buys for the points in the 8th ed world.

Some, like giants, I believe got worse without needing it and need a boost too.

If you want to go through on a case by case basis and figure out which monsters (like the steamtank) need help and which don't, that sounds like a fun discussion. But saying 'other monsters lost stuff too' isn't much of a rebuttal to saying "the steamtank needed T10 or it would be pointless to take in 8th".




That's a strawman.

No it's not. I don't think you know what that term means. I am pointing out that there are other T10 units in the game, some of which get wardsaves and are thus even harder to kill with cannons than the steamtank is.

How is that misrepresenting your argument and refuting a weaker version of it? Your argument is that things with T10 are hard to kill. I agree. You say the steamtank is hard to kill. I agree with that too.





I'm sorry, but that is just an outright fallacy. All units could be realistically destroyed by entries from other army books,[COLOR="Pink"]

You are flat out 100% wrong here. In the 7th ed, there is absolutely no empire unit that can beat ASF swordmasters in CC. Not one. The same goes for Blackguard with ASF, or a half a dozen other units.

I think you should probably stop throwing around insults like 'strawman' and 'fallacy'.






[COLOR="Pink"] Something which you forgot to mention is that the potential risk to the Stank owner is virtually 0. (In terms of Vp's) The risk for the other player, however, is still X. (Where X is higher than 0. :D)

That doesn't make the steamtank overpowered, that just makes the 'no vp except for unit destroyed' scheme a bad one, especially combined with the 10 wounds on the steamtank. I agree that having a virtually impossible to kill (but easily neutralized) steamtank is a bad idea. We are in agreement here that the empire player risking 0 vp is bad.


T10 is a real balance issue.

As mentioned, T10 is not unique to the steamtank and I think at least 3 of the other T10s can get 4+ ward saves, and so be twice as hard to kill with cannons as the steamtank is. Moreover, they do not rely upon being in close combat range to be effective.

How are you going to kill the casket of souls, anvil of doom, or cauldron of blood, for example?

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 18:41
S8 = no armor save.

Yah the left portion of my brain isn't thinking atm.

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 18:41
As mentioned, T10 is not unique to the steamtank and I think at least 3 of the other T10s can get 4+ ward saves, and so be twice as hard to kill with cannons as the steamtank is. Moreover, they do not rely upon being in close combat range to be effective.

True, but the Anvil and Casket cannot run over your mans.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 18:42
Do those at least 3 other T10 models with 4+ ward have 5+ wounds too? Or 1+ armour save? It's the combination that hurts.

Soul of Iron
09-07-2010, 18:54
True, but the Anvil and Casket cannot run over your mans.

I'm sorry dude, but this statement made me laugh my ass off.

As a WoC player I have no idea what to use to kill this thing. WTF were they thinking?

Oberon
09-07-2010, 18:57
Maybe we really have to take the glaive of putrefecation now, hope to make contact with the stank before it does anything, roll at least one six to wound, and hope he fails his 2+ save. Then it would be beatable... Sad thing really, the glaive is really sucky weapon that has no use at all besides stanks and even stanks have that T10 (!!!) and 1+ save (!) to protect them. Other monsters at least have some weakness (like, only T6...) so the glaive isn't necessary.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 18:58
WoC cannot afford to give up it's few ranked up units to hold a stank the whole game

It's your own fault if you have few ranked units. You can take as many ranked units of maraduers as the empire can take steamtanks. They are cheaper too. If the empire an afford to give up a steamtank to hold up a block of marauders the whole game, how come the WoC player can't give up a block of marauders to hold the steamtank the whole game? The marauders are cheaper, you know.


especially as it is the stank that initiates the combat

Why? Your marauders can charge 11-12" reliably now. Why isn't that enough distance to initiate the combat against the steamtank? With steadfast and stepping up, it doesn't really matter who charges, however.


=keeps shooting until you don't have ranks anymore

If the steamtank spends all game shooting at a marauder block to remove their ranks, you are golden. the empire player is badly misusing his steamtank and you don't have to worry about it at all.


charges to the flank so you can't even strike back well enough (=you lose=no frenzy)

Why are you letting him charge you in the flank? That seems foolish. Moreover, with a tarpit that doesn't lose ranks when charged by the steamtank, it barely matters.


"But he just used 300p model to hold your 250p unit, so you win." Well, no. The marauder unit is actually worth more for WoC=marauders are underpriced,

This doesn't make any sense.

Draconian77
09-07-2010, 19:01
No, I answered it. You just didn't like my answer. I said that other large monsters like flying dragons, hydra, ancient stegadon, HPA, doomwheel, were better buys than the steamtank. Thus, even though they also went down, they remain decent buys for the points in the 8th ed world.

However, you can't actually "prove" anything, can you? (Neither can I, by the way. I am aware of this! ;)) You can not prove that the other monsters where outright better purchases for their points. That is only your opinion. Thus, your answer was essentially invalid and an invalid answer can hardly be considered "likeable". :eyebrows:


Some, like giants, I believe got worse without needing it and need a boost too.

I don't think that Giants necessarily became worse(Thunderstomp and Large Target changes vs Steadfast and Step Up). However, Giants where a tad overpriced in 7th to begin with.


If you want to go through on a case by case basis and figure out which monsters (like the steamtank) need help and which don't, that sounds like a fun discussion. But saying 'other monsters lost stuff too' isn't much of a rebuttal to saying "the steamtank needed T10 or it would be pointless to take in 8th".

Claiming that the Steamtank (of questionable point per point value) needed an increase to T10 to make it useful in 8th edition compared to other monsters (also of questionable point per point value) remains entirely illogical.


No it's not. I don't think you know what that term means. I am pointing out that there are other T10 units in the game, some of which get wardsaves and are thus even harder to kill with cannons than the steamtank is.

However, Cannons are only necessary for dealing with the Steam Tank because of its armour save, toughness and wounds combined. You conveniently forgot to mention that those other T10 units with Ward saves are nowhere near as resilient as the Steamtank, despite having a toughness of 10. Cannons where never mentioned in your initial post with relation to this matter and even with those in mind, the Steamtank is not harder to destory.


How is that misrepresenting your argument and refuting a weaker version of it? Your argument is that things with T10 are hard to kill. I agree. You say the steamtank is hard to kill. I agree with that too.

My argument is not that "something with T10 is hard to kill". I am perfectly happy with T10 as long as it can be wounded on 6's. My argument is that the Steamtank with T10, W10, a 1+ save, Unbreakable and immunity to non-Str related magic is too hard to kill. Please don't confuse the two viewpoints.


You are flat out 100% wrong here. In the 7th ed, there is absolutely no empire unit that can beat ASF swordmasters in CC. Not one. The same goes for Blackguard with ASF, or a half a dozen other units.

Sigh... First of all, a large-ish (7/8) unit of Inner Circle Knights with a Warrior Priest would likely beat a unit of Swordmasters last edition. (If you want the math I will provide it for you.) Secondly, you did not say "in CC only", what you actually wrote was "there are units out there they can't destroy in CC and can't reliably magic/shoot to death". The Swordmaster are vulrenable to being (reliably, T3 5+ save) shot down. The Steamtank? No. Just no. :D


I think you should probably stop throwing around insults like 'strawman' and 'fallacy'.

I am not trying to be insulting. I apologise if the comments appear that way. I'm sure that it's just the toneless flavour of the internet interfering. :)


That doesn't make the steamtank overpowered, that just makes the 'no vp except for unit destroyed' scheme a bad one, especially combined with the 10 wounds on the steamtank. I agree that having a virtually impossible to kill (but easily neutralized) steamtank is a bad idea. We are in agreement here that the empire player risking 0 vp is bad.

Agreed.



As mentioned, T10 is not unique to the steamtank and I think at least 3 of the other T10s can get 4+ ward saves, and so be twice as hard to kill with cannons as the steamtank is. Moreover, they do not rely upon being in close combat range to be effective.

They are not technically twice as hard to kill however, as the Steamtank has more than 2x the wounds. This actually makes the Steamtank more difficult to destroy. (Easier to neuter with Cannons, agreed. Without Cannons, the other targets are actually easier to neuter/kill.)


How are you going to kill the casket of souls, anvil of doom, or cauldron of blood, for example?

Without the 1+ save, the Unbreakable and the 10 wounds? Weight of attacks, crumbling, combat reslution, poison, spells (especially I based ones for the Anvil and the Casket), etc. Plenty of answers for those units, very few for the Stank. Very much a case of "Cannons or bust". That is bad for the game in my opinion.

Empire - Ulric
09-07-2010, 19:04
I do believe, and correct me if I'm wrong that the Steam Tank Actually used to have toughness 10 prior to 7th edition.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:05
Do those at least 3 other T10 models with 4+ ward have 5+ wounds too? Or 1+ armour save? It's the combination that hurts.

Cauldron of Blood has T10, 4 wounds and 4+ ward save. Good luck killing that with cannons, or any high S shooting. It's twice as resistant to high S shooting as the steamtank, but more vulnerable to low S shooting.

Anvil of Doom has T10, 5 wounds, and 4+ ward save. (And a damn good armor save, depending on how you equip the runelord)

Casket of souls has T10, 5 wounds. No innate ward save.

Note that all 3 of these use the best ward and armor save of any member of the crew, so can be given common magic items that give you a 4+ ward save and/or 2+ armor save.

8th edition has introduced *several* T10 units that are virtually impervious to low volume of high strength shots. I suggest you all learn to deal with it instead of complaining that the old tactics (shoot cannon! shoot boltthrower!) don't work.

How do you plan to kill the anvil of doom, casket of souls, or cauldron of blood?

Oberon
09-07-2010, 19:07
I have better use for the 250 p marauder unit than holding up a stank they can never break, they could cost over 300 pts and still be worth it, but somewhy they cost only 250.

Stank moves pretty freely, it can move to the flank and then shoot, and then charge you anyway. I can't show the front to every direction at once so as it drifts 12" sideways, it gets really hard to catch it. Are you trying to tell me that my 10 ranks long regiment should be able to catch a steam tank that can move however it likes with the SP it generates...

Oberon
09-07-2010, 19:11
So, without the ward save we are talking about T10 W8 cauldron, T10 W10 anvil, T10 W5 casket? Cauldron actually costs less, both anvil and casket might actually cost more than Stank (anvil certainly does!) and only anvil has an armour save. None of those are therefore on the same level of durability/points cost/killy as the stank. Or something.

Rochr
09-07-2010, 19:13
no, its a caviat, removes the unit instead of str hits, something which the stupid machines immune too because of plot armour.

(its effectively immune to the warp...)

To be fair I can't see why it wouldn't just take STR11 hits instead of just "disappearing" Feels a bit odd that you get punished for rolling too "good".

Oberon
09-07-2010, 19:15
I thought it was S11 and being sucked into warp is the side effect? The spell description doesn't say for example "roll 2d6 for str, if you roll 11 or 12 then it doesn't count but the target unit is removed from the field instead"...Or does it?

Draconian77
09-07-2010, 19:16
I do believe, and correct me if I'm wrong that the Steam Tank Actually used to have toughness 10 prior to 7th edition.

Prior to 7th? It had its own very complicated rules. These rules included such things as an armour value (of up to 25 if memory serves) which decreased the more you strapped on to the Stank. In addition, this armour was weaker in certain areas such as the rear. (Very much like your average 40k tank.) Character-held multi-wound weapons used to wreck the old Steamtanks. ;)

Von Wibble
09-07-2010, 19:16
My high elves can't see a way to hurt it either. Even the spearmen with S8 would only cause a couple of wounds - and that doesn't allow for the fact that

1) Empire get dispel dice for warrior priests and oc the rod of power. They are one of the best defensive magic armies in the game

2) The spell is cast in my turn - for my spears to be in combat requires either a charge (and less models fighting) or to have been engaged by the steam tank earlier (also less models as that steam cannon will cripple me).

I can see myself more likely getting a couple of wounds on it after losing a couple of units. So the tank is neutered but has killed off more than it is worth in points and I don't even score any VPs of my own....

Skyros - Draconian's right, it is a strawman. Your Cauldron of blood example is of models with only 4 wounds and no armour save. Even S10 attacks find this easier to kill than the steam tank (need 8 wounds average to kill instead of 10 so I really don't know why you claim they are twice as hard to kill) and the more typical S3-6 attacks find the steam tank a LOT harder to nail.

A single shot RBT for example - you need 3 hits per wound on a steam tank, so 30 hits to kill it. Against a cauldron of blood you need 6 hits per wound, so 24 hits to kill it.

Massed S3 bowfire - 360 hits needed vs steam tank. Vs the cauldron its 48 hits.

Edit - its a fair point that you can boost the ward save and armour save with magic items and the like. But I can't see a way to boost, say, the cauldron.

Also argung that empire can't beat asf swordmasters in combat seems a long way away from the point. The point you tried to refute there was that empire have units to deal with swordmasters (Draconian's claim was that aside from the steam tank every unit in the game can be countered in some way by every army) - and they do! They have crossbows, handguns, outriders, helblaster, magic. There are options other than combat available when it comes to taking out swordmasters. Its not like there is an option to just ignore the tank - that steam gun attack is going to take out a couple of ranks on top of the 8 impact hits which will remove the ranks off any non horde unit very quickly (except T4 heavily armoured).

You are right - T10 is not a balance issue. T10, W10 and a 1+ save otoh is.

Saldiven
09-07-2010, 19:20
I know I'm going to get hammered for this one, but I think people are over-reacting a bit here.

Yes, the S'tank is hard to destroy, but do you really need to destroy it?

Getting 10 wounds on it will be nigh impossible for most armies, but if you get 2-3 on it, the relative effectiveness of the unit drops so significantly that the S'tank becomes a relative non-issue in the game, correct?

I know that it must be destroyed to grant VP, but that's going to be hard to do for most armies, and you don't absolutely have to table every opponent to win. Whining about how hard the thing is to kill doesn't serve a purpose in a Tactics thread.

Instead, let's try focusing on actual ways in which to neutralize the vehicle, whether that is by destroying it or otherwise rendering it ineffectual on the field.

Von Wibble
09-07-2010, 19:21
Fair enough. But how do my high elves do this exactly, without relying on magic?

Oberon
09-07-2010, 19:32
@Saldiven: the hard part is doing that before it gets into combat with anything. If it does, you basically lose that unit too. It's like "FU I'm not going to use my stank, so you can't use your warriors either!" If stank gets into CC, you have to destroy it or break from the combat (lose), breaking is very hard and the longer you spend doing it, the longer the opponent has to countercharge and destroy you.

Of course, if you have lots of shooting that ignores armour saves, you can stop a stank before it hits CC (=do three wounds or so to slow it down), but what about 2 stanks (like my opponent has) or armies that do not have lots (or even any) shooting that doesn't allow armour saves/high str (like woc)?

OTOH, it wasn't easy in 7ed either, so maybe this isn't so different...

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:34
However, you can't actually "prove" anything, can you? You can not prove that the other monsters where outright better purchases for their points. That is only your opinion. Thus, your answer was essentially invalid and an invalid answer can hardly be considered "likeable". :eyebrows:

Everything we are discussing is just 'our opinion'. It's your opinion that T10 is too hard. Should I just say "that's your opinion and thus invalid"? That doesn't sound very fun :(



Claiming that the Steamtank (of questionable point per point value) needed an increase to T10 to make it useful in 8th edition compared to other monsters (also of questionable point per point value) remains entirely illogical.

I'm not saying it needed an increase in T10 to be worth using compared to other monsters. The empire player can't field other monsters. I'm saying that, as it stood, the steamtank lost enough in the transition from 7th to 8th to not be worth its points to an empire player.

There is nothing illogical in that whatsoever.

There is also nothing illogical in claiming that other monsters who cost less/provided more are all right in 8th edition without an increase in toughness while the steamtank needed it.




However, Cannons are only necessary for dealing with the Steam Tank because of its armour save, toughness and wounds combined. You conveniently forgot to mention that those other T10 units with Ward saves are nowhere near as resilient as the Steamtank, despite having a toughness of 10.

Eh? Yes they are. You get no armor save vs cannons. You do get a ward save vs cannons. Any T10 unit with a 4+ ward save is twice as hard to damage as a T10 unit without a ward save.

They're twice as resilient as the steamtank. Remember, the steamtank doesn't need to be destroyed to be removed entirely from the game (again, I must say, a stupid design decision). For all intents and purposes (other than VP) the steamtank has about 4-5 wounds because of the mechanics of steam generation.




[COLOR="pink"]My argument is not that "something with T10 is hard to kill". I am perfectly happy with T10 as long as it can be wounded on 6's. My argument is that the Steamtank with T10, W10, a 1+ save, Unbreakable and immunity to non-Str related magic is too hard to kill. Please don't confuse the two viewpoints.

We seem to be going back and forth over whether we are trying to kill the steamtank or deal enough wounds to render it useless. I've already agreed it's too tedious to actually kill the steamtank. But it's 'effectively' dead long before it is 'really' dead. In actuality it only needs to take about the same # of wounds as other T10 units to be 'effectively' dead.
If you are shooting high S stuff that doesn't allow armor saves (which is the ONLY real impact of the T10) then something with a 4+ ward is roughly twice as survivable against such fire as a T10 unit without such ward saves.

It is even harder to shoot down the casket of souls, cauldron of blood, anvil of doom, etc, than it is to shoot down the steamtank, with things like boltthrowers and cannons.




Sigh... First of all, a large-ish (7/8) unit of Inner Circle Knights with a Warrior Priest would likely beat a unit of Swordmasters last edition. (If you want the math I will provide it for you.) Secondly, you did not say "in CC only", what you actually wrote was "there are units out there they can't destroy in CC and can't reliably magic/shoot to death".

I don't see how the IC is going to win. You're looking at 13-15 SM attacks striking first, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, and then being saved on a 4+. That's 3-4 dead knights (and the WP is one of them, if the SM were smart enough to direct attacks against him). Your remaining 4 knights hit twice kill two elves. They are outnumbered and the elves have a rank, and lose by 4. Or maybe only by 3 if the WP is still alive. Things get even worse the next round.

You can't count on magic/shooting people to death. The opponent will be trying to block LOS, neutralize your shooting, dispell your magic, and so on. Swordmasters could be given a 4+ ward save which neutralized a lot of the shooting aimed at them. Empire players needed to have a backup plan for swordmasters. They can't just say "pffft I'll just magic shoot them all down long before they reach me, every time!"




[COLOR="Pink"] They are not technically twice as hard to kill however, as the Steamtank has more than 2x the wounds. This actually makes the Steamtank more difficult to destroy. (Easier to neuter with Cannons, agreed. Without Cannons, the other targets are actually easier to neuter/kill.)

With the steamtank having 2x wounds, they are exactly as easy as the steamtank to kill with cannons, seeing as how the steamtank will be taking twice as much damage from the cannons.

However, to *neutralizez* the steamtank requires only about half the cannon fire/bolt fire as it does to *kill* these other things with cannon fire/bolt fire.







Without the 1+ save, the Unbreakable and the 10 wounds? Weight of attacks, crumbling, combat reslution, poison, spells (especially I based ones for the Anvil and the Casket), etc. Plenty of answers for those units, very few for the Stank.

I believe all those guys can get a 2+ armor save. Remember, they take the best armor /ward save of the crew (and some come with a built in 4+ ward save). Also remember that a 3+ armor save and a 4+ ward save are equivalent to a 2+ armor save.

Weight of attacks will kill the steamtank just as well as the others. Same for poison. Same for spells with an S value. The 'I test or die' spells are very short ranged and thus extremely unlikely to work on the casket/anvil (nevermind the dwarves extreme magic resistance).

Crumbling/CR might work, but that requires you to march a strong combat unit all the way across the board. I don't think having a long ranged T10 unit be more vulnerable to CC/less vulnerable to shooting is imbalanced with having a short range T10 unit be less vulnerable to CC/more vulnerable to shooting.

Every bit of shooting that is impacted by the ST going to T10 is also impacted by the others going to T10.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:36
I have better use for the 250 p marauder unit than holding up a stank they can never break

No you don't. Or if you do, bring another 250 point marauder unit. Problem solved.

It's silly to complain you're not going to take a points efficient solution to a problem because you could use those points even more efficiently elsewhere.

Do you think the empire player has a better use for his 300 points steamtank than holding up a 250 point marauder unit he can never break? Hell yes.



Stank moves pretty freely, it can move to the flank and then shoot, and then charge you anyway.

No it can't. If empire players have been moving to your flank and then charging you with the ST all in one round they are cheating big time.



I can't show the front to every direction at once so as it drifts 12" sideways, it gets really hard to catch it. Are you trying to tell me that my 10 ranks long regiment should be able to catch a steam tank that can move however it likes with the SP it generates...

With the new movement rules, *absolutely* you should be able to.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:39
So, without the ward save we are talking about T10 W8 cauldron, T10 W10 anvil, T10 W5 casket? Cauldron actually costs less, both anvil and casket might actually cost more than Stank (anvil certainly does!) and only anvil has an armour save.

They can all have an armor save. They all use the best armor save/ward save of the crew.

The anvil *far* outstrips the steamtank in durability from shooting/melee. It can have the killer armor save and the 4+ ward save. Both are T10. Both will be neutralized at 5 wounds.

Casket and cauldron can easily be at the same durability. All they need is like a 3+ armor save, which is easily obtained from common magic items now, even on a 50 points budget. That combined with the 4+ ward save is just as good against S3, and progressively better and better than 1+ armor save against higher S.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 19:40
Did I say he charged the same turn? I'm not that stupid, to allow something like that.

Even with the new movement rules, I can't charge something I can't see.

I know he has better use for his stank, he did that with his other stank. The other was on the flank with only marauders in it. Oh, by the way my marauders lost and broke the second turn of combat against a stank (or third, when it could strike back), and yes I did turn to face it first.

Can the casket (a wizard) take magical armour now? Cauldron can be bought for death hag only, and death hags can get only gifts of khaine and magical standards. So no armour saves for them either.

Von Wibble
09-07-2010, 19:42
They can all have an armor save. They all use the best armor save/ward save of the crew.

The anvil *far* outstrips the steamtank in durability from shooting/melee. It can have the killer armor save and the 4+ ward save. Both are T10. Both will be neutralized at 5 wounds.

Casket and cauldron can easily be at the same durability. All they need is like a 3+ armor save, which is easily obtained from common magic items now, even on a 50 points budget. That combined with the 4+ ward save is just as good against S3, and progressively better and better than 1+ armor save against higher S.

Actually the cauldron can't do that. Hags aren't allowed mundane armour and therefore not magic armour either. Since the cauldron already has a 4+ ward the only extra protection possible is the pendant of khaeleth - chances are that item is going to be used somewhere else in the list instead ;)

Edit- Oberon's right - you can't even take the pendant. The only protective gift of khaine is the 5+ ward, which is somewhat redundant on a cauldron. And I'm pretty sure you can't give armour to a liche priest either for that matter - though magic resistance from the blue khephra could be useful.

Saldiven
09-07-2010, 19:46
@Saldiven: the hard part is doing that before it gets into combat with anything. If it does, you basically lose that unit too. It's like "FU I'm not going to use my stank, so you can't use your warriors either!" If stank gets into CC, you have to destroy it or break from the combat (lose), breaking is very hard and the longer you spend doing it, the longer the opponent has to countercharge and destroy you.

Of course, if you have lots of shooting that ignores armour saves, you can stop a stank before it hits CC (=do three wounds or so to slow it down), but what about 2 stanks (like my opponent has) or armies that do not have lots (or even any) shooting that doesn't allow armour saves/high str (like woc)?

OTOH, it wasn't easy in 7ed either, so maybe this isn't so different...

The point I was trying to make is that all this incessant whining about how hard it is to kill is completely pointless. That sort of commentary accomplishes absolutely nothing and really doesn't have a place in a tactics thread.

In a nutshell, all the complaints about how hard it is to kill might satisfy some need to show the world how righteously offended some people feel, but it's meaningless.

Once again, I thought this was a tactics forum, not a bitch-fest.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:47
My high elves can't see a way to hurt it either. Even the spearmen with S8 would only cause a couple of wounds - and that doesn't allow for the fact that

You should cause more than a couple wounds with 3 ranks of S8 spearmen - no armor saves remember. And you only need to cause a couple wounds to stop the ST. You don't need to deal 10.

However, your larger point is basically correct. I think HE are generally boned in this edition. Their high LD and ASF dropped in value massively and they just don't have several things needed to compete in 8th ed - namely big blocks of cheap troops and powerful template weapons.

You can use teclis to take advantage of the new magic but that's about it. HE struggle to beat the ST but then I think people are going to realize they struggle against most armies.




Skyros - Draconian's right, it is a strawman. Your Cauldron of blood example is of models with only 4 wounds and no armour save. Even S10 attacks find this easier to kill than the steam tank (need 8 wounds average to kill instead of 10 so I really don't know why you claim they are twice as hard to kill) and the more typical S3-6 attacks find the steam tank a LOT harder to nail.

No, it wasn't a straw man. :rolleyes: Straw man has a very precise meaning, as I explained. But your sentence *is* a straw man. I raised 3 other T10 units. You are ignoring 2 of them, and acting as though I only brought up the 3rd.

S10 attacks finds a ward save less cauldron of blood exactly as easy to kill as they do to neutralize the steamtank. But it has a 4+ ward so...it's twice as hard.




You are right - T10 is not a balance issue. T10, W10 and a 1+ save otoh is.

It's basically T10, W5, and 1+ save.

The Anvil can be T10, W5, 1+/4++. The others can be something like 3+/4++ which is just as good against S3 and progressively better against higher S attacks.

All T10 units are very resilient against shooting. The steamtank arguably is the *least* resilient against high S shooting of the T10 units, because it, unlike the others, has no innate ward save and has no possibility of a ward save.

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 19:47
Why are we still comparing the STank to the Anvil, Casket and other similar Warmachines?

They're of completely different functionality and purpose.

Von Wibble
09-07-2010, 19:48
And once again, what ideas exactly do you have for High Elves, or since Oberon is also asking, Chaos?

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:51
Hags aren't allowed mundane armour and therefore not magic armour either.

:( That's no good. I thought that changed in 8th! That makes me significantly less excited about the common magic armor for some armies then.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:52
Why are we still comparing the STank to the Anvil, Casket and other similar Warmachines?

They're of completely different functionality and purpose.

Because people are saying that the T10, specifically, has made the Steamtank too hard to kill. I am point out that the T10 has made other warmachines even harder to kill, so they should direct their complaints elsewhere.

N810
09-07-2010, 19:52
@Saldiven: the hard part is doing that before it gets into combat with anything. If it does, you basically lose that unit too. It's like "FU I'm not going to use my stank, so you can't use your warriors either!" If stank gets into CC, you have to destroy it or break from the combat (lose), breaking is very hard and the longer you spend doing it, the longer the opponent has to countercharge and destroy you.

Of course, if you have lots of shooting that ignores armour saves, you can stop a stank before it hits CC (=do three wounds or so to slow it down), but what about 2 stanks (like my opponent has) or armies that do not have lots (or even any) shooting that doesn't allow armour saves/high str (like woc)?

OTOH, it wasn't easy in 7ed either, so maybe this isn't so different...


How about the new Razormune banner (the armor piercing attacks banner)
give it to some skink cohorts... poisoned and armor piercing attacks...
6's = wounds :D

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:54
Did I say he charged the same turn? I'm not that stupid, to allow something like that.

Even with the new movement rules, I can't charge something I can't see.

I know he has better use for his stank, he did that with his other stank. The other was on the flank with only marauders in it. Oh, by the way my marauders lost and broke the second turn of combat against a stank (or third, when it could strike back), and yes I did turn to face it first.


Of course they broke. The tank rolled in, did probably 4-5D3 of impact hits, wiped out the front ranks, took no attacks back, and won combat. Your non stubborn marauders almost certainly would have fled.

In 8th, they'll look around, realize they still have many ranks, shrug, and roll on the generals leadership. If that fails, they'll reroll with the BSB.

If has two steamtanks, take two marauder blocks to trap them!

Von Wibble
09-07-2010, 19:56
You should cause more than a couple wounds with 3 ranks of S8 spearmen - no armor saves remember. And you only need to cause a couple wounds to stop the ST. You don't need to deal 10.

No, it wasn't a straw man. :rolleyes: Straw man has a very precise meaning, as I explained. But your sentence *is* a straw man. I raised 3 other T10 units. You are ignoring 2 of them, and acting as though I only brought up the 3rd.

S10 attacks finds a ward save less cauldron of blood exactly as easy to kill as they do to neutralize the steamtank. But with the new common magic items, why *wouldn't* you give your cauldron a ward save?



Spearmen - 15 attacks, 3 to hit with reroll (engineer has a WS and its a chariot so no auto hit) means 13 hits, 2 wounds. That's just a couple.

Actually my numbers were run with a 4+ ward on the cauldron...And I just picked that as the exmple I know best of the 3, the casket is pretty much identical to it so no point referring to it - as already pointed out no armour save can be bought for either of these, and the hag can only have a 5+ ward (gifts of khaine only, no magic items, and no armour).

Tbf I'd agree that the anvil is harder to kill as I had forgotten the runesmith can take items - though at least magic items can be destroyed or nullified.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 19:56
And once again, what ideas exactly do you have for High Elves, or since Oberon is also asking, Chaos?

I've already explained how Chaos can stop it. If Oberon is unwilling to use cheap tarpit units for the purpose for which they were intended, that's not really my problem.

I already explained that High Elves will either have to use magic, or be basically boned. There are a ton of things that HE are going to be boned against in 8e without magic. I feel rather sorry for the army and hope they get a new book soon. With stepping up and fighting in 2 ranks, they are just far too vulnerable to masses of high S enemies: empire state troops with halberds, stormvermin, marauders with GW, dwarves with GW...last time I did the math these guys were capable of taking on any elven block in combat, because elves are fragile and expensive. And they don't have (barring magic) powerful template weapons to thin out the greater #'s of their enemies.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 19:58
It was in 8ed!
In the wonderland of real world, empire has its own guns too, for A: to take out my guns (so stanks can do what they want) and B: to remove my manz so they will actually end sometime soonish. A direct hit of a mortar, 2 rounds of impacts from stank, 2 bursts of steam gun (once before CC, once in), no more marauders.

Romulus68
09-07-2010, 20:01
Has this been said?

Empire Errata:
Q. Is the Steam Tank destroyed by a Heroic Killing Blow? (p51)
A. Yes.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 20:03
Spearmen - 15 attacks, 3 to hit with reroll (engineer has a WS and its a chariot so no auto hit) means 13 hits, 2 wounds. That's just a couple.

No, you still auto hit. It's a ST special rule that hasn't been removed by the FAQ.



Actually my numbers were run with a 4+ ward on the cauldron...And I just picked that as the exmple I know best of the 3, the casket is pretty much identical to it so no point referring to it

I haven't made a TK list in ages but I thought their guards had some armor?

I agree entirely the ST having 10W is dumb and over the top, especially combined with only getting VP's if you wipe out the unit entirely (which is a bad rule on its own).

HOWEVER the ST is *effectively* dead with only 4-5 wounds.

So we have a succession of 10T 4-5W models that can be directly compared.

Cauldon has a 4+ ward
Steamtank has a 1+ armor save
Anvil has a 4+ ward and can have a 2+/3+ armor save (forget exactly, need to look at my dwarf book when I get home) from the runelord
Casket should be able to get a 4+ ward save and I think the guards can get armor but perhaps I am wrong.

Now. The 4+ ward means each of these others is quite a bit harder to kill with bolt throwers/cannons than the steamtank is to neutralize. The 1+ armor means the steamtank is more resilient to mass low S bowfire, half of which will get through the ward saves of the cauldron and casket. The anvil is impervious to just about everything, and isn't going to break from CR either (stubborn)

That covers shooting. The steamtank doesn't stand out as being overly hard to kill via shooting compared to the other T10 warmachines.

On to close combat. I argue the steamtank is easier to kill in close combat because of
(a) stepping up
(b) attacking in 2 ranks
(c) anything wounding on a 6

Your small elite units of high S troops, which are the only ones impacted by the move to T10, weren't going to get any strikes against a charging steamtank anyway because they'd all be smashed aside by impact hits.

Even if the steamtank is slightly harder to kill in CC it's quite a bit easier to tarpit in CC.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 20:06
It was in 8ed!
In the wonderland of real world, empire has its own guns too, for A: to take out my guns (so stanks can do what they want) and B: to remove my manz so they will actually end sometime soonish. A direct hit of a mortar, 2 rounds of impacts from stank, 2 bursts of steam gun (once before CC, once in), no more marauders.

As opposed to 7th edition where one round of impact hits would have meant no more marauders. How is that worse for you?

Obviously if you let your tarpit blocks get chewed up by enemy template fire they are going to be less good at your job. You do have units whose job it is to neutralize enemy warmachines however.

You act like any solution which isn't guaranteed to work 100% of the time is no solution at all and not worth trying.

Only brettonians get to kill the steamtank with 100% certainty :p

Skyros
09-07-2010, 20:10
To sum up:

GW introduced several T10 models with 8th ed.
All these models are *significantly* harder to kill with long range high S fire than they were before. They are not appreciably harder to kill in melee now that anything wounds on a 6 and models fight in 2-3-4 ranks and step up.
Other than the ST, all of these guys have or can have a 4+ ward save.
All these T10 models need to take 4-5 wounds to be killed/rendered ineffective*
Therefore, the steamtank is the easiest of the T10 models to kill with cannon fire (or other high S fire).

*For no good reason, once the steamtank is immobilized you have to hack through *another* 5 wounds to get the VP for it. ST should be reduced to 5 wounds and have steam point generation adjusted accordingly.

fubukii
09-07-2010, 20:11
the stank is over kill not just because of t10 but

T10 w10 1+ save. its just ridiculous. Most armies can not deal with this.

DOC - Boned ( even mind razored daemonettes can barely dent it and losing daemon models Is big since they expensive, awesome str blood thrister would get mauled by cannons. Bolt of change can maybe dent it if you roll extremely well. )
WOC - Boned (sure you can hold it up with a 250-300 pt unit if you get a favorable charge, but whats to say thy didnt get mortared, or the steam tank gets some help from a ranked unit of halbs? Requires a good gateway.)
WE - Boned
DE - boned (takes 6 RBT hits to cause 2 wounds....)
HE - boned ( see above)
TK ( must take khalida or boned)
Beasts - boned
LM - boned ( 1+ really hurts the blow darts psn. still takes 6 psn to do 1 wound, and at short range)

For armies that have some answers
Skaven - WLC (6s to wound most times, but ignore armor and d6 wounds) PWG, PWM
Dwarves - BT, stone throwers
Orcs - some spells, and auto wound stuff.
ogres - Seige breaker, 2d6 str 2 no save spell
Empire easy

I feel after this faq and edition empire has become the most Broken army in the game. Before the game even starts you now have a 600 pt lead over your enemy, as you know that unless you play the above your steam tank is gonna waltz through Being almost invincible..

Looks like ill have to bring my skaven to tournaments and use my other 2 armies as casual lists.

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 20:14
TK have 4 shots with 2 SSCs per turn with Smiting. S9, D6 wounds and no armor saves from S9 will kill it, or seriously maim it. Provided it hits of course.

But yes, as for HE, like I've said a billion times since 8th Ed rumors first started hitting.. take Teclis or die. He is the 1-man option for playing HE competitively in 8th Ed.

Von Wibble
09-07-2010, 20:15
No, you still auto hit. It's a ST special rule that hasn't been removed by the FAQ.

I haven't made a TK list in ages but I thought their guards had some armor?



Autohit - fair enough. Even though empire are another army I play I have never actually used a steam tank, nor d I plan to. Its still only 2.5 wounds but at least a couple of rounds of combat neuter it. Best I can hope for really.

TK - the casket guards have light armour for a 6+ save. But the items are bought for the model "mounted" on it, a liche priest or high priest. Whilst there are a couple of 4+ ward save items they can have (not to mention the ones in the common list), they can't wear armour.

Oberon
09-07-2010, 20:16
It is not worse no, but you implied that in 8ed there would have been no trouble at all for the marauders. No I don't have units that can get to the warmachines behind empire lines, there are other units there and marauder horsies can't take the fire that's coming their way or carve their way through ranks and ranks of knights.

Sure if WoC could get ~3 wounds in, the stank couldn't grind all the marauders before the game ends, but again it basically kills the unit too.

I'll keep hoping hellcannon hits with it's first shot, manages to wound about three times, fly my sorc lord near the other stank but ouside of los for his cannons, and roar a couple of wounds from that stank then. Pendulum&mindrazor might help if they get through.

@Herofox: with warriors priests and arch lectors&rod of powers, empire has nice magic defence, and cannons kill SSCs. But yes, if you get to fire them then stanks are having a hard time keeping that steam pressure up.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 20:18
the stank is over kill not just because of t10 but

T10 w10 1+ save. its just ridiculous. Most armies can not deal with this.

DOC - Boned ( even mind razored daemonettes can barely dent it and losing daemon models Is big since they expensive, awesome str blood thrister would get mauled by cannons. Bolt of change can maybe dent it if you roll extremely well. )
WOC - Boned (sure you can hold it up with a 250-300 pt unit if you get a favorable charge, but whats to say thy didnt get mortared, or the steam tank gets some help from a ranked unit of halbs? Requires a good gateway.)
WE - Boned
DE - boned (takes 6 RBT hits to cause 2 wounds....)
HE - boned ( see above)
TK ( must take khalida or boned)
Beasts - boned
LM - boned ( 1+ really hurts the blow darts psn. still takes 6 psn to do 1 wound, and at short range)

So these armies can't do 5 wounds to a T10 1+ armor save model.

Then how are they going to be able to do 5 wounds to a T10 2+/4++ model like the anvil of doom?

For that matter, how are you going to deal 4-5 wounds to the T10 /4++ models like the cauldron of blood or casket of souls?

For S6 and above shooting, the steam tank is *easier* to stop by shooting than any of these guys. And unlike the steamtank these guys don't really have to charge into close combat to do their work.

Zangor
09-07-2010, 20:18
How about that lore of shadows spell where a unit uses its leadership as strength!

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but i havent read all the posts here.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 20:19
But yes, as for HE, like I've said a billion times since 8th Ed rumors first started hitting.. take Teclis or die. He is the 1-man option for playing HE competitively in 8th Ed.

I believe this a completely accurate assessment.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 20:21
TK - the casket guards have light armour for a 6+ save. But the items are bought for the model "mounted" on it, a liche priest or high priest. Whilst there are a couple of 4+ ward save items they can have (not to mention the ones in the common list), they can't wear armour.

Ah, gotcha. In that case it would have, thanks to the rule about using the best armor or ward save available to the crew, a 6+ light armor save and a 4+ ward save (if such an item was purchased (and why wouldn't you?)

This means it is more vulnerable to mass low S shooting than the steamtank (easier to deal 5 wounds to the casket) but once you get up to S6 it is equally as hard to damage as the steamtank and at higher S it's harder to damage than the steamtank.

Frankly, all of these guys are going to be an absolute *pain* to deal with via shooting :(

Draconian77
09-07-2010, 20:22
Everything we are discussing is just 'our opinion'. It's your opinion that T10 is too hard. Should I just say "that's your opinion and thus invalid"? That doesn't sound very fun :(

Cute... Unfortunately, my opinion on the 8th edition Steamtank is based on a branch of mathematics called probability. For example, I can tell you that the Steamtank (A) is too hard to kill based on X amount of shots at Strength Y compared to similarly costed unit(s) B, also attacked by X amount of shots at Strength Y.

Now, can you actually prove to me that the other monsters in the game (Hydras, HPA, Doomwheels, etc) where better value for their points in 7th edition? Or can you only give me your opinion which states; "I think that they where better value for their points in 7th edition." Well?



I'm not saying it needed an increase in T10 to be worth using compared to other monsters. The empire player can't field other monsters. I'm saying that, as it stood, the steamtank lost enough in the transition from 7th to 8th to not be worth its points to an empire player.

Again, that is only an opinion. You can't actually prove it one way or another. Perhaps there are other Empire players who would have seen value in it. Likewise, I cannot prove to you whether or not the 7th edition Steamtank would be any good in 8th. However, I *can* prove that a T10 Steamtank is too difficult to kill based on probability.


There is also nothing illogical in claiming that other monsters who cost less/provided more are all right in 8th edition without an increase in toughness while the steamtank needed it.


It is illogical to claim that without first proving that the other monsters provided more for their points value.



Eh? Yes they are. You get no armor save vs cannons. You do get a ward save vs cannons. Any T10 unit with a 4+ ward save is twice as hard to damage as a T10 unit without a ward save.

You said that the other units where harder to kill, not damage. Perhaps you mispoke, I don't know. However, it is not harder to kill a T10 W4 4+ Ward model with a Cannon than it is to kill a T10 W10 model with a Cannon. (Simple math, 50% save vs 100% extra wounds)


They're twice as resilient as the steamtank. Remember, the steamtank doesn't need to be destroyed to be removed entirely from the game (again, I must say, a stupid design decision). For all intents and purposes (other than VP) the steamtank has about 4-5 wounds because of the mechanics of steam generation.

Victory points are a rather large portion of the game and if the near-indestructable Steamtank doesn't give them up, then that confers a large advantage to an Empire player.



We seem to be going back and forth over whether we are trying to kill the steamtank or deal enough wounds to render it useless. I've already agreed it's too tedious to actually kill the steamtank. But it's 'effectively' dead long before it is 'really' dead. In actuality it only needs to take about the same # of wounds as other T10 units to be 'effectively' dead.
If you are shooting high S stuff that doesn't allow armor saves (which is the ONLY real impact of the T10) then something with a 4+ ward is roughly twice as survivable against such fire as a T10 unit without such ward saves.

Again, that's fine assuming we are trying to cripple it. I am talking about actually destroying it.


It is even harder to shoot down the casket of souls, cauldron of blood, anvil of doom, etc, than it is to shoot down the steamtank, with things like boltthrowers and cannons.

Luckily, there are easier ways of dealing with those units. Lots of weaker attacks for example, which all armies have access to. You don't need Bolt Throwers or Cannons to deal with the above. You will need Cannons to kill a Steamtank because the lower Strength attacks will bounce off the 1+ save.



I don't see how the IC is going to win. You're looking at 13-15 SM attacks striking first, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, and then being saved on a 4+. That's 3-4 dead knights (and the WP is one of them, if the SM were smart enough to direct attacks against him). Your remaining 4 knights hit twice kill two elves. They are outnumbered and the elves have a rank, and lose by 4. Or maybe only by 3 if the WP is still alive. Things get even worse the next round.

Assuming that the Priest has the usual layout, the Swordmasters won't attack the Priest. (1+ re-rollable) The combat is more likely to go like this;

Swordmasters: 15 Attacks/10 Hits/8.33" wounds/2.7 kills (Lets say 3)
4 Knights (Champion included): 5 attacks/3.75 hits/3.125 kills
Priest: 2 attacks/1.5 hits/1 wound/.83" kill
Horses (Priests horse included): 5 attacks/3.75 hits/1.875 wounds/1 kill

So what, 3+rank+standard for the Masters compared to 5+standard for the Knights? If the Knights Outnumber at their of US10/12 then they win the combat.

Although all of this is besides the point, you could have just shot the Swordmasters. :D


You can't count on magic/shooting people to death. The opponent will be trying to block LOS, neutralize your shooting, dispell your magic, and so on. Swordmasters could be given a 4+ ward save which neutralized a lot of the shooting aimed at them. Empire players needed to have a backup plan for swordmasters. They can't just say "pffft I'll just magic shoot them all down long before they reach me, every time!"

The thing is, all of the above counter measures have counter-counter measures(Dispel the magic ward, shoot the screens, shoot over the screens using a hill, etc) Thus, the Swordmasters are not truly difficult to remove with shooting. You could almost say that there is a reliable counter for Swordmasters. (What a surprise! :p) The Steamtank on the other hand...


I believe all those guys can get a 2+ armor save. Remember, they take the best armor /ward save of the crew (and some come with a built in 4+ ward save). Also remember that a 3+ armor save and a 4+ ward save are equivalent to a 2+ armor save.

The Death Hag and Liche can't exactly make themselves more difficult to destroy. (A 4+ Ward on the Liche is about the best you can do.)


Weight of attacks will kill the steamtank just as well as the others. Same for poison. Same for spells with an S value. The 'I test or die' spells are very short ranged and thus extremely unlikely to work on the casket/anvil (nevermind the dwarves extreme magic resistance).

The lower Strength attacks are better (in other words, "of actual use versus") against the other targets, the ones without 1+ armour saves...surely you can see that?


Crumbling/CR might work, but that requires you to march a strong combat unit all the way across the board. I don't think having a long ranged T10 unit be more vulnerable to CC/less vulnerable to shooting is imbalanced with having a short range T10 unit be less vulnerable to CC/more vulnerable to shooting.

The Steamtank isn't "more vulrenable" to shooting. Where did that come from? With T10 and the change to hitting Large Targets, it is definately harder to kill with. Even compared to say the Cauldron or the Casket, it is not harder to destroy. (You also don't need a strong combat unit to crumble a Casket! :angel:)



Every bit of shooting that is impacted by the ST going to T10 is also impacted by the others going to T10.

For the last time, it isn't just the T10. It is the Toughness on top of everything else. (1+, 10W, Unbreakable, etc)

This is getting a tad circular for my liking. I think that I will leave it at that, at least for now. If you really want to discuss it, you can PM me.

ArchHeretic
09-07-2010, 20:22
The stank being so hard to kill fits in the fluff too. The empire only has like 7 left. Losing them left right and centre just isn't right.

How about a lord on a dragon? I think that would work well. Maybe be double the points, but you'll reliably put it out of commission and then shortly out of its misery.

EDIT: nevermind, I thought dragons were S10 :P

Skyros
09-07-2010, 20:25
It is not worse no, but you implied that in 8ed there would have been no trouble at all for the marauders.

Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to imply that. The marauders aren't going to be able to stop the tank with certainty, just like the steamtank isn't going to be able to do whatever it wants with certainty. The marauder tarpit isn't a foolproof plan: there are things your opponent can do to counter it. But there are things you can do to counter the counters, etc.


No I don't have units that can get to the warmachines behind empire lines, there are other units there and marauder horsies can't take the fire that's coming their way or carve their way through ranks and ranks of knights.

Remember you'll get a vanguard move, and with more terrain, the amount of missile fire your horsies take should be reduced. Additionally, any fire going to the horsies isn't going to the marauders. And don't forget the new magic lores!

Oberon
09-07-2010, 20:25
So these armies can't do 5 wounds to a T10 1+ armor save model.

Then how are they going to be able to do 5 wounds to a T10 2+/4++ model like the anvil of doom?

For that matter, how are you going to deal 4-5 wounds to the T10 /4++ models like the cauldron of blood or casket of souls?

For S6 and above shooting, the steam tank is *easier* to stop by shooting than any of these guys. And unlike the steamtank these guys don't really have to charge into close combat to do their work.

You surely correct me if I'm wrong, but don't these units use the crew for toughness in CC? So you'll wound against T3 or T5 then, making them much easier to wound. Anvil also has 4+ ward only against shooting, 6+ in CC.

Stank might be easier to stop, but not to kill. Killing is the only way to stop cauldron from working for example.

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 20:26
The stank being so hard to kill fits in the fluff too. The empire only has like 7 left. Losing them left right and centre just isn't right.

How about a lord on a dragon? I think that would work well. Maybe be double the points, but you'll reliably put it out of commission and then shortly out of its misery.

EDIT: nevermind, I thought dragons were S10 :P

Taking a Lord on a Dragon vs. Empire?

lol, you've got balls man.

fubukii
09-07-2010, 20:26
So these armies can't do 5 wounds to a T10 1+ armor save model.

Then how are they going to be able to do 5 wounds to a T10 2+/4++ model like the anvil of doom?

For that matter, how are you going to deal 4-5 wounds to the T10 /4++ models like the cauldron of blood or casket of souls?

For S6 and above shooting, the steam tank is *easier* to stop by shooting than any of these guys. And unlike the steamtank these guys don't really have to charge into close combat to do their work.

In combat they use the crews toughness Like all warmachines, so thats how i would deal with those. in combat the Stank is still t10 1+ save. i can kill t3 elves in combat fairly easily.

Empire - Ulric
09-07-2010, 20:26
Seriously,

Why would you play with 2 Steam Tanks? (Which BTW is only possible at 2500+ Points due to the 25% rare cap)

It would be so very Boring and it takes a huge chunk out of your army.

Taking into account the characters you are going to be fielding, the War machines, and Big Units of Knights and infantry, and the shooting you aren't going to have many troops on the board with double tanks.

You will more than likely get your tanks tar pitted in combat while the rest of your army gets swarmed and run over by a superior number of enemy units.

I mean My god. I could field 50 Halberdiers with Full Command and the Armor Piercing Banner for just 15 points more than a Steam Tank.

Personally I'd rather field a couple of Helstorm Rocket Launchers instead of a Second Tank (Assuming I was fielding one to begin with).

fubukii
09-07-2010, 20:29
Because a steam tank will on average generate 8 points of cr pretty good at making sure its support units win combats. Plus no partials on FLame templates, and points denial. Its a Tournament thing of course. You could always run both tanks together to maul units down fast or with one of those cheap halb blocks you mentioned to deny steadfast.

ArchHeretic
09-07-2010, 20:32
Taking a Lord on a Dragon vs. Empire?

lol, you've got balls man.

I faced a VC lord on zombie dragon. I could not, for the life of me kill the damn thing. So, I ran away from all of its charges. It never saw combat for the entire game (until the end) lol. And I only lost a cannon and 2 lvl 2 wizards to it :D

Empire - Ulric
09-07-2010, 20:35
The Steam Gun attack (Flame Template) is only strength 2 so your looking at minimum 5's to wound or worse against most things.

If if you are managing to touch 12 guys with it on average you are only going to wound 2 to 4 of them.

That said It does however not allow armor saves and it's fun to Steam Boil your Enemy in their armor.

Neth
09-07-2010, 20:43
My biggest issue with it now, is how it compares to other "big" things. Tooled up bloodthirster, a greater demon is wounding on 6's. HE lord on stardragon, chaos lord on dragon etc. can't do anything to it.

Foxbat
09-07-2010, 20:52
Seriously,

Why would you play with 2 Steam Tanks? (Which BTW is only possible at 2500+ Points due to the 25% rare cap)

It would be so very Boring and it takes a huge chunk out of your army.Well this may be true, but is it not also true that an Empire player can take an STtank at 1200 pts?

At these lower point levels (i.e. 1200 to 1999), having an STank is almost an auto win…

Skyros
09-07-2010, 21:01
However, I *can* prove that a T10 Steamtank is too difficult to kill based on probability.

No you can't. And if you think you can, you don't understand probability at all. All you can 'prove' is how many attacks of a certain strength it takes on average to kill a steamtank.

Saying "it's too hard to kill" is your OWN OPINION. And thus invalid. ;)




It is illogical to claim that without first proving that the other monsters provided more for their points value.

Incorrect. Much like your use of 'strawman', your use of 'illogical' is completely wrong here. It's entirely logical. Show me the logical contradiction? Again, you need to stop using words that aren't appropriate for the context.

All that is required for my statement to be logical is for me to have the *belief* that the other monsters provided more for their points value.


However, it is not harder to kill a T10 W4 4+ Ward model with a Cannon than it is to kill a T10 W10 model with a Cannon. (Simple math, 50% save vs 100% extra wounds)

That's why I said it was exactly as hard to kill, but twice as easy to neutralize, the steamtank.



Victory points are a rather large portion of the game and if the near-indestructable Steamtank doesn't give them up, then that confers a large advantage to an Empire player.

Yep. But that's not a change from 7th edition at all. It's always been this way.



Again, that's fine assuming we are trying to cripple it. I am talking about actually destroying it.

Ideally doing both would occur at the same time. It's dumb to have a unit that is crippled but you haven't earned any VP's for it and you have to do all that damage *again* to get VP's for it.

In terms of discussing how overpowered the steam tank is, all we need to do is see how easy it is to cripple.



Luckily, there are easier ways of dealing with those units. Lots of weaker attacks for example, which all armies have access to. You don't need Bolt Throwers or Cannons to deal with the above. You will need Cannons to kill a Steamtank because the lower Strength attacks will bounce off the 1+ save.

Yep! It's almost like GW planned it out, and made the units more likely to take to long range high S fire (because they sit safely in the back) stronger against it by giving them a high ward save and gave the units more likely to take lots of lower S attacks (because they have to steam up into the midst of the enemy) stronger against it by giving them a high armor save but no ward save. Sounds like balance to me!

The anvil is more survivable than the steamtank is against both high S and low S fire (good armor save, ward save)
The casket can be 6+/4++, requiring about 15 S3 hits to wound vs 36 S3 hits to wound vs the steamtank. It's about twice as easy to damage with low S fire, in exchange for being twice as hard to damage with high S fire.
The cauldron is quite a bit more vulnerable to low S fire.
Steamtank looks very middle of the pack in terms of the T10 units missile resistance.



Assuming that the Priest has the usual layout, the Swordmasters won't attack the Priest. (1+ re-rollable) The combat is more likely to go like this;

1+ rerollable? How is he getting that? Dawn armor and enchanted shield? If we are going to load up the WP with magic items then I think we need to account for the presence of an HE character with magic items in the unit as well. Or just some magic items on the champion who could challenge and kill the WP with the right items. Or challenge and kill the IC champion with no magic items. Either way, you're winding up losing either hatred or an attack from the champ.

Additionally, can't only 7 25mm bases fit against the swordmasters?

If you lose 3 of those guys, you are only getting 4 guys to attack back, which is a WP and 3 knights or 4 knights.

Additionally, there's no way the knights are going to outnumber the SMs, given equal points values.

The IC's lose on the first turn, and it gets progressively worse for them on subsequent turns because they no longer have the lance bonus and they are losing attacks while the SM's are not.



[COLOR="Pink"]The thing is, all of the above counter measures have counter-counter measures(Dispel the magic ward, shoot the screens, shoot over the screens using a hill, etc) Thus, the Swordmasters are not truly difficult to remove with shooting. You could almost say that there is a reliable counter for Swordmasters. (What a surprise! :p) The Steamtank on the other hand...

It is no harder to tarpit the steamtank than it is to remove the swordmasters with shooting.



The Death Hag and Liche can't exactly make themselves more difficult to destroy. (A 4+ Ward on the Liche is about the best you can do.)

It is exactly as hard to deal 5 S6 wounds to a 10T model with a 4++ ward save as it is to deal 5 S6 wounds to a 10T model with a 1+ armor save.

It's easier to deal S7, S8, S9, and S10 wounds to the steam tank than to either the cauldron, the casket (assuming the obvious ward save) or the anvil.

Why are we complaining that it's hard for cannons and bolt throwers to kill the STEAMtank? It's the *most vulnerable* of all the T10 models to high S shooting, because it doesn't have a ward save.

S3 and S4 shooting is *unchanged* vs the steamtank compared to the previous edition as far as # needed to roll to wound

So you're kicking up this whole fuss purely for shooting at S5?

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 21:05
I just hope this thread gets to 30+ pages by the end of tonight on 5 major forums so GW can realize they're complete balance failures. (yet again)

Foxbat
09-07-2010, 21:06
Do we have a view on whether or not the Lore of Life special ability can “heal” wounds on a Stank?

Skyros
09-07-2010, 21:09
Because a steam tank will on average generate 8 points of cr pretty good at making sure its support units win combats.

For 300 points, that's ...not very good. And it only generates those points of CR in its own turn. (no steampoints to grind in its enemies turn) You can do more damage with equal points of greatswords (assuming they can all fit in, of course).

If a steamtank is killing 8 guys a turn a block of 30 marauders should be able to hold him the entire game.

(Turn 1, nothing, turn 2, charge, kill 8, turn 3, kill 3, turn 4, kill 8 (marauders have rank still and are stubborn) turn 5, kill the rest, overrun, turn 6, run around, prepare to charge). And this is assuming the people the tank is fighting never deal a wound to him and he never takes a wound from magic or shooting. If he can't generate 4 steam points his damage out put drops dramatically. A horde of night goblins with spears can outfight a steam tank generating 2 SP :p

That's like...a 150 point investment. You can pad it up to 40 or 50 if you feel like it to give yourself some breathing space and make your block a big threat to units other than steamtanks and *still* clock in at less points value than the steamtank.

Zaszz
09-07-2010, 21:10
You can take a weapon that automatically wounds as HE I think, and chug a potion of strength? Probably hit it with all attacks, and you auto wound, then the strength pot would put you at strength 7 so he would need 5's to save. Its still a matter of you living to make it up there, but the build on a Noble could be useful for killing any monster not just a tank. It's a weak option as he is more vulnerable and probably more expensive then the tank but it's something I suppose.

I definitely think it should be like T8 or something so at least RBT's have a fair chance at a wound.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 21:16
The T10 is pretty insane, on anything. It takes like 4 direct cannon ball hits to kill any of the T10 units with a 4+ ward save, and that many to kill the steamtank outright. (probably only 2 to make it dead in the water, but no VP's for that!(which is silly))

Who knows? Maybe we'll be seeing these values drop to T8 as the armybooks for these guys roll out for 8th ed.

fubukii
09-07-2010, 22:02
you know what i am considering

Since the errata says change the profile and special rules of the steam tank to the following and then never mentions its immunity to magic with no strenght value will it still retain its old rule?

"Page 50 – Steam Tank
Change the profile, equipment and special rules for the Steam
Tank to:"

"Special Rules
Impact Hits (D3 per SP), Large Target, Terror, Unbreakable,
Steam Points (see page 51)"

thoughts? If this is the case at least lore of metal could hurt it

Skyros
09-07-2010, 22:05
It says to ditch some special rules (on one page) and keep others (on another page).

The FAQ also doesn't say how steam points are generated, so the empire player could just say "I have one MEEEEELION steam points!" and off he goes :p

I'm not sure why people are eager to have the lore of metal affect the steam tank. It would be hilariously imbalanced.

fubukii
09-07-2010, 22:07
god forbid something other then empire can have a way to possible hurt this monstrosity :P

Even then you can always dispel the spell, with warrior priests adding dispel dice it shoulndt be tough to dispel unless he throws alot of dice to miscast/get if

Skyros
09-07-2010, 22:10
Having a single casting of a base signature spell be guaranteed to take a 300 point unit out of the fight is a bit much, don't you think?

I mean, maybe if the steam tank had 4+ ward save like all the other T10 units can get metal magic would be fine, but then the steam tank would be hilariously overpowered against everything else.

fubukii
09-07-2010, 22:20
having 600 pts of models that you cant literally get vp for is pretty imbalanced too.

at least you can dispel the spell, and even then it wont kill it on average it would do 3 wounds per casting assuming you dont dispel it.

most armies have no answer for the tank in its current form.

RichBlake
09-07-2010, 22:21
Just to clarify some points:

The Steam Tank can only be damaged by spells with a strength value, all other spell effects are ignored. That means only the following spells can (directly) do anything to the steam tank:

Fireball
Burning Head
Piercing Bolts of Burning
Fulminating Flame Cage
Flame Storm

The Flock of Doom
The Amber Spear

Shem's Burning Gaze
Banishment

Awakening the Wood
Shield of Thorns

Urannon's Thunderbolt
Comet of Cassandora
Chain Lightning

The Penumbral Pendulum

Of course unit buffs increasing Strength etc will still effect the unit its cast on, but nothing else will effect the Steam Tank. Of particular note is Amber Spear as that has two values, the easier one is a Bolt Thrower and the latter is a S10 Cannon with D6 wounds.

Of course it is T10 with 10 Wounds and it has a 1+ save, however here are some magic items that may help:

Giant Blade
Sword of Bloodshed
Obsidian Blade
Relic Sword

Ironcurse Icon

Of particular note here is the Relic Sword. It lets you always wound a model on a 5+ regardless of Toughness. Also is the obsidian blade which ignores armour saves.

Also the Steam Tank, when under 7 wounds, will find it hard to move at any decent turn of speed at all.

I'm an Empire player who has always loved Stanks so sadly you wont get any help from me, however there are options out there. None of them are one-stop-shop solutions, but there are options.

Brettonians are lucky with the Heroic Killing Blow for 40 points, which is pretty damn good as it works on non-large targets too now. Also of course is Karl Franz, the ultimate Steam Tank killer with auto-wounding, no armour D3 wound hammer.

Tbh the Stank is ridiculously hard to kill but it's also 300 points and in a standard game (yes 2K is still standard unless the GT changes it imo) you can only take one. Compared to some of the overpowered broken units of 7th I don't think it's THAT bad.

Taylor US
09-07-2010, 22:24
What page is the immunity rules on in the army book? page 50?

The FAQ does talk about generating steam points which is on page 51. Also talks about amending them with regards to movement on page 51.

So where is this immunity rule?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-07-2010, 22:26
Right, I think it's about time for some more constructive discussion (not that I'm annoyed about the whole argument over this issue, as I myself enjoy that kind of thing, but I would like some advise for my army lists so that I have some means of dealing with this).

For my VC, as already said by someone else I think 3 man wraith units are the way to go, able to move 12" a turn and on average charge 13" means they should hopefully catch the tank, and then you have a 150pt unit that will inescapably tar pit the 300pt tank. So for my current 2000pt army it isn't a problem, as I'm running a 6 man wraith unit at the moment, with the loss of slots I'll simply split them in two so as not to waste points and still have the points for my Varghulf.

For my Dwarfs, it won't be a problem, at 2000 I run two cannons and a S10 grudge thrower, between them they should be able to effectively immobilise it on the first turn. So artillery is obviously the way to go for dwarfs.

For my WoC, I'm not so confident in dealing with it, but as already highlighted, there are ways. A nice big unit of marauders will tar pit it, though that is obviously not the most efficient use of marauders, it does do the job. The hellcannon is another way, though you do have to be quite lucky to actually wound it. There is the option of the giant, but then again you have to be lucky to get him there and then lucky again to get the right attack (thump with club, 2d6 wounds, no armour saves, automatic as the tank can't take an initiative test to avoid it), so not my favourite option. And the Glaive of Putrefaction is far too situational for me. The only other one is Gateway, that has the capability to cause some damage, though you will have to be lucky again.

Well these are my views on the "matter" anyway.

Cheers,

Nixon

Romulus68
09-07-2010, 22:33
you know what i am considering

Since the errata says change the profile and special rules of the steam tank to the following and then never mentions its immunity to magic with no strenght value will it still retain its old rule?

"Page 50 – Steam Tank
Change the profile, equipment and special rules for the Steam
Tank to:"

"Special Rules
Impact Hits (D3 per SP), Large Target, Terror, Unbreakable,
Steam Points (see page 51)"

thoughts? If this is the case at least lore of metal could hurt it

That changes the rule......it doesn't remove anything unless it says to remove something. IE.....magic immunity remains.

RichBlake
09-07-2010, 22:34
What page is the immunity rules on in the army book? page 50?

The FAQ does talk about generating steam points which is on page 51. Also talks about amending them with regards to movement on page 51.

So where is this immunity rule?


From the Errata:


Page 51 – Steam Tank, Movement phase
Change to “Each SP allows you to move the Steam Tank 3".
To charge with a Steam Tank, first declare the charge as
normal, and then specify how many SP you are using to charge
with. The charge range of the Steam Tank is equal to 3" per SP
that is spent. In addition, each SP spent on the charge adds D3
to the number of Impact Hits inflicted by the Steam Tank in
the Close Combat phase. Note that you do not add the roll of
2D6 to the charge range when a Steam Tank charges, and that
the target unit may make a charge reaction as normal.”

Page 51 – Steam Tank, Shooting phase
Change the last sentence of the third paragraph to “Models
covered by the template are hit automatically.”

Page 51 – Steam Tank, Shooting phase
Ignore the last sentence of the fourth paragraph.


Nowhere does it say to change the section titled Steam Tank, The Magic Phase. Hence the magic rules don't change.

Skyth
09-07-2010, 22:39
A disc rider with bloodcurdling roar will disable a Stank pretty easily. (And can have a 1+ AS and 3+ ward).

Taylor US
09-07-2010, 22:44
@RichBlake: So page 51 then yeah?

I thought it was a special rule maybe on the profile of the steam tank and hence why it might have been changed to reflect it not having it.

Don't have my army book to hand due to it being shipped to the US.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-07-2010, 22:45
A disc rider with bloodcurdling roar will disable a Stank pretty easily. (And can have a 1+ AS and 3+ ward).

It's only 1 wound per turn on average, but I suppose if you can keep flying round him it could definitely work. I might do that for my disc sorcerer lord in fact.

Cheers,

Nixon

P.S I didn't know that the empire had perfected stem cell technology, as is carting round huge storage tanks of the stuff for no apparent reason other than to roll them along and crush the enemy. You'd think they might as well have just filled the tanks with water...

RichBlake
09-07-2010, 22:57
@RichBlake: So page 51 then yeah?

I thought it was a special rule maybe on the profile of the steam tank and hence why it might have been changed to reflect it not having it.

Don't have my army book to hand due to it being shipped to the US.

Nah it's page 51.

To further clarify the Steam Tank entry Basically read like this:

[Pg. 50]
~~~~~~~~~~~~M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Steam Tank special - - 6 10 10 - special -
Commander ~~~~ - 3 4 3 - - 3 1 10
Unit Type: Chariot* (armour save 1+)

*Note that the Steam Tank only inflicts D3 Impact Hits rather
than D6 like other chariots (This will combine with the D3
Impact Hits per SP listed below).

Equipment
The Steam Tank is armed with a main cannon in the hull and a
steam gun in the turret. The Engineer Commander is armed
with a repeater pistol (see page 47).

Special Rules
Impact Hits (D3 per SP), Large Target, Terror, Unbreakable,
Steam Points (see page 51)

[Pg. 51]

Building Up Steam Points

[As per Army Book]

Using Steam Points

[As per Army Book]

Movement Phase
Each SP allows you to move the Steam Tank 3".
To charge with a Steam Tank, first declare the charge as
normal, and then specify how many SP you are using to charge
with. The charge range of the Steam Tank is equal to 3" per SP
that is spent. In addition, each SP spent on the charge adds D3
to the number of Impact Hits inflicted by the Steam Tank in
the Close Combat phase. Note that you do not add the roll of
2D6 to the charge range when a Steam Tank charges, and that
the target unit may make a charge reaction as normal.

Magic Phase

[As per Army Book]

Shooting Phase

[As per Army Book apart from the Steam Gun doesn't mention the use of partials and the reference to being able to see over other models due to being a large target is removed. Though it still can be fired in close combat]

Close Combat Phase

[As per Army Book]

Impact Hits Against the Steam Tank

[As per Army Book]

Characteristic Tests

[As per Army Book]



I haven't put anything there that isn't in the FAQ, what the sub-sections say are found in the Empire Army book.

Taylor US
09-07-2010, 23:22
Damn you GW!!!!

Thanks RichBlake for fully clearing it up.

TBH blowpipes will be good against it especially if you can give the skinks +1 strength.

Of course T8 Saurus could also hold it up for some time...

Depulsor
10-07-2010, 00:15
Damn you GW!!!!

...was exactly, what I was thinking, when I read the "T10, W10, 1+, partial immune to magic," thing. :cries:

Chaos257
10-07-2010, 00:23
The army-wide errata for 8th shows that the empire steam tank now has T10 W10. It's immune to charateristic tests(except I test), and only spell with strength value can damage it. This means the basic spell of 8th lore of metal, which doesn't have definite strength value, is useless against this big chunk of imperial panzer tank.:cries:

While dwarfs may try to shoot it down with cannon(but will still take some time), armies with no S10 warmachine will definitely suffer against them. I, playing high elves, found only one decent solution so far.: Lore of Shadow. Wither(decreasing T by D3), Pendulum of whatsover(pass I test or suffer S10 D3 wounds), Okkam's Mindrazor(LD becomes S when rolling to wound) seems quite decent against it. A unit of DP with armour-piercing banner and fighty lord might stop the panzer in short time. But again, this stems from my short insight. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Welcome to the singe most overpowered unit in warhammer history. Back when I played empire the steam tank on did a hit if you failed an initiative test. And it didn't count towards combat resolution, it was a shooting attack.

Chaos257
10-07-2010, 00:24
Damn you GW!!!!

Of course T8 Saurus could also hold it up for some time...

Hey ? T 8 saurus ?

fubukii
10-07-2010, 00:27
they wont be toughness 8 for long he will just dispel it on his turn making them low toughness again and grind them to death

Chaos257
10-07-2010, 00:37
Er, why? The basic spell would be guaranteed to take the steamtank out of the fight in one casting. Does that sound balanced to you?

UUMMMMM YES IT DOES !!!!!

Considering one spell can render an entire unit of chaos knights dead in one turn ! It sounds damned balanced to me !

10 chaos knights = no point b.c ppl will bring lore of metal and kill them in one turn.

5 is worse b.c they can then kill it with a starting spell pretty easily.

Sinsigel
10-07-2010, 00:37
Okkam's Mindrazor is seen as one of the few solutions, but what concerns me is that the spell allows LD to be used instead of S "when rolling to wound".(From what I've heard, this is the BRB explanantion for the spell)
This might mean that armour save may not be modified according to the altered Strength. Can anyone with BRB(I'm sure there will be plenty by now) check the exact wording of it?

Chaos257
10-07-2010, 00:39
Worst bit is not only is it T10 but it hits harder than anything in the game ! Those dice are not just attacks ! They're str 6 hits !

Compare to a chaos lord 210 pts... gets to make 5 attacks.

I say we start an internet petitition to GW to get this thing nerfed b.c it will ruin warhammer fantasy tournaments world wide.

Hec... why not just give empire bowmen the ability to equip 2nd ed. assault cannons and terminator armour for 5 pts per model.

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2010, 00:43
Black amulet.
I charge it, hold and then let it grind me to mush whereby I rebound half the damage and make it unusable for the rest of the game.

Maybe using the venom sword.
Occams mind razor to help with wounding the damned thing and possibly maybe getting past the armour......

Draconian77
10-07-2010, 00:43
EDIT: Didn't realise that this was so long! Text wall ahead people, skip at your leisure. I won't post something this lengthy again.



No you can't. And if you think you can, you don't understand probability at all. All you can 'prove' is how many attacks of a certain strength it takes on average to kill a steamtank.

Saying "it's too hard to kill" is your OWN OPINION. And thus invalid. ;)



Still cute... Of course, if the same opinion is voiced by the masses it tends to become the de facto truth. As a clear example, the Dark Elf Hydra was "proven" to be undercosted during 7th edition without any comprehensive (all- encompassing) mathematics telling us why this was so. Now I wouldn't want to accuse you of small mindedness, but during this entire thread haven't you been one of few to support the change to T10? I don't suppose that you happen to be an Empire player by chance? :D Either way, I see far voices against the change than for it. Might address that later on...



Incorrect. Much like your use of 'strawman', your use of 'illogical' is completely wrong here. It's entirely logical. Show me the logical contradiction? Again, you need to stop using words that aren't appropriate for the context.

If you don't see how it's illogical then I can't do anything to help you. To reiterate, you cannot claim that it was a worse purchase per-point than (for example) a Giant or a HPA. There is a gap in the logic. You seem to have replaced the in-context probabilities with a personal belief/opinion.

All that is required for my statement to be logical is for me to have the *belief* that the other monsters provided more for their points value. .

Oh, proof that you have replaced the in-context probabilities with a personal belief. That’s astonishing…do you also believe that 1+1=3?



That's why I said it was exactly as hard to kill, but twice as easy to neutralize, the steamtank.

I agree, but neutralising it is worth 0 Vps. Advantage: Stank user.


Yep. But that's not a change from 7th edition at all. It's always been this way.

Erm, incorrect? The victory points have always been important, no argument. But the tank was vulnerable to certain units. (Bolt Throwers, models with Great Weapons, etc, etc)


Ideally doing both would occur at the same time. It's dumb to have a unit that is crippled but you haven't earned any VP's for it and you have to do all that damage *again* to get VP's for it.

In terms of discussing how overpowered the steam tank is, all we need to do is see how easy it is to cripple.

Again, I fail to see the reasoning behind that claim. You spend time and effort neutralising the Steamtank, all the while it is blowing or grinding chunks out of your army. (Or pinning units in place.) After it is eventually damaged to the point where it’s damage output is negligible, it has already put the Empire player ahead.


Yep! It's almost like GW planned it out, and made the units more likely to take to long range high S fire (because they sit safely in the back) stronger against it by giving them a high ward save and gave the units more likely to take lots of lower S attacks (because they have to steam up into the midst of the enemy) stronger against it by giving them a high armor save but no ward save. Sounds like balance to me!

This reads as nonsense so I’ll just skip ahead.


The anvil is more survivable than the steamtank is against both high S and low S fire (good armor save, ward save)

I bet that it has other exploitable weaknesses. Let's check. Worse in combat, I assume? More expensive, I assume? Not immune to several spells, I assume?


The casket can be 6+/4++, requiring about 15 S3 hits to wound vs 36 S3 hits to wound vs the steamtank. It's about twice as easy to damage with low S fire, in exchange for being twice as hard to damage with high S fire.

The Casket is twice as hard to damage, but no harder to kill. With that in mind, the Casket is much easier to kill all told. (It is worse or equal against lower strength, higher strength, shooting, combat and spells.)


The cauldron is quite a bit more vulnerable to low S fire.

Obviously.


Steamtank looks very middle of the pack in terms of the T10 units missile resistance.

Yes, if you ignore the facts. Luckily, I have no intention of doing so.


1+ rerollable? How is he getting that? Dawn armor and enchanted shield? If we are going to load up the WP with magic items then I think we need to account for the presence of an HE character with magic items in the unit as well.

Dawn Armour(4+), Barded Horse(2+), Shield(1+). Very simple. You can’t have the Dawn Armour and the Enchanted Shield as they are both magic armour.


Or just some magic items on the champion who could challenge and kill the WP with the right items.

Unlikely…


Or challenge and kill the IC champion with no magic items.

The Priest could accept the challenge.


Either way, you're winding up losing either hatred or an attack from the champ.

The Priest accepts the challenge, the unit retains Hatred.


If you lose 3 of those guys, you are only getting 4 guys to attack back, which is a WP and 3 knights or 4 knights.

Additionally, there's no way the knights are going to outnumber the SMs, given equal points values.

Yes, because all fights in Warhammer take place between units of equal value... :eyebrows: (Not to mention that MSU Swordmasters was a tried and tested High Elf favourite) Me thinks perhaps that you have forgotten the original meaning behind this little exercise. You categorically stated that nothing in the Empire army list could defeat the Swordmasters in hand to hand combat. In turns out, you where wrong. Any unit of Knights with 1-2 characters in it seems to do the trick, for example. I imagine that the War Altar would be equally capable of beating the unit. (Impact hits+Soulfire+Soulfire+Cleansing Flare+attacks?)


The IC's lose on the first turn, and it gets progressively worse for them on subsequent turns because they no longer have the lance bonus and they are losing attacks while the SM's are not.

You do realise that even if 4 models strike back instead of 5, the Knights still win the first round, don't you?
(Priest = 1 kill, Horses = 1 kill, Knights = 3 kills)


It is no harder to tarpit the steamtank than it is to remove the swordmasters with shooting.

Again, that isn’t something which you can prove beyond doubt... It might be more accurate to say; “It may be easier to tarpit the Stank than it might possibly have been to remove the Swordmasters with shooting.” However, considering the context (Warhammer, Empire, shooting phase!), tar pitting the Stank seems incredibly unlikely, whereas shooting the Swordmasters seems relatively easy.


It is exactly as hard to deal 5 S6 wounds to a 10T model with a 4++ ward save as it is to deal 5 S6 wounds to a 10T model with a 1+ armor save.

Well aware. However, 5 wounds does not kill a Steamtank. It kills those other targets. (Two of which will cost more than the Stank)


It's easier to deal S7, S8, S9, and S10 wounds to the steam tank than to either the cauldron, the casket (assuming the obvious ward save) or the anvil.

Again, easier to damage. Not easier to kill. 0 Vp’s for “damaging”.


Why are we complaining that it's hard for cannons and bolt throwers to kill the STEAMtank? It's the *most vulnerable* of all the T10 models to high S shooting, because it doesn't have a ward save.

All told, it is just as hard to destroy with that high Strength shooting.
However, it is so much harder to kill with both low Strength shooting and close combat attacks.


S3 and S4 shooting is *unchanged* vs the steamtank compared to the previous edition as far as # needed to roll to wound

So you're kicking up this whole fuss purely for shooting at S5?

Kicking up a fuss? Sounds a tad conceited if you don’t mind me saying so.

I am raising the point that the probable odds of killing a T10 Steamtank reliably are negligible unless your army has access to multiple Cannons in 8th edition. This is a balance issue and balance issues are bad for the game as a whole. One army should not be able to deny another army x300 (x = # of Stanks) victory points based solely on what units are available to the opposition.

The Toughness increase was not the best way to balance the Stank for 8th edition. If a change was required, they could simply have changed how it generated Steampoints (make it easier) or change its points cost. (Not the best solution in 8th mind you.)

Sparowl
10-07-2010, 00:49
Skink Cohorts, Chameleon Skinks, Skinks with Javalins, Skinks with blowpipes.....

Having poison against warmachines is awesome.

Chaos257
10-07-2010, 00:58
Skink Cohorts, Chameleon Skinks, Skinks with Javalins, Skinks with blowpipes.....

Having poison against warmachines is awesome.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm spend half your army to kill one 200 put unit.

HeroFox
10-07-2010, 01:14
It's 300, but yeah. Most armies need a good amount of investment to bring that thing down!

fubukii
10-07-2010, 01:29
and posion still bounces off its 1+ save 5/6 times.

Skyros
10-07-2010, 01:44
Worst bit is not only is it T10 but it hits harder than anything in the game !

Ahahahahaha. No.

No wonder you 're complaining - you're just clueless!

Skyros
10-07-2010, 01:48
What page is the immunity rules on in the army book? page 50?

The FAQ does talk about generating steam points which is on page 51. Also talks about amending them with regards to movement on page 51.

So where is this immunity rule?

It is on page 51. Really, about the only things on page 50 are the fluff and the profile, equipment, and list of special rules. (large target, unbreakable, terror, US 10).

Skyros
10-07-2010, 01:52
It's 300, but yeah. Most armies need a good amount of investment to bring that thing down!

The investment required to neutralize the steam tank is about right. But then you have to do TWICE that much damage AGAIN to kill the steamtank - which is rather absurd. Way too much effort required.

And problematic when the empire player takes 2 steam tanks (granted, only at higher points values).

This is why the 'no vp unless unit entirely destroyed' is a bad idea, *especially* combined with a unit that only needs a couple wounds to be useless but has like 6-7 more that need to be laboriously chewed through to be actually dead.

GW should have bumped the toughness to 10, and dropped the wounds to 5, and let the tank generate any number of steam points less than/equal to the # of wounds he had left. Then he'd be as hard to kill as any other T10 unit, roughly. (Much more vulnerable to cannon fire, less vulnerable to mass S3/S4 attacks).

boreas
10-07-2010, 02:07
Well, poison (from my skinks, let's say) would need only 360 shots :)

Phil

southpaw
10-07-2010, 02:32
The Changeling has promise against the Stank. He will still have 10 wounds and a 1+ save though, but he may be killable with a T3 in combat.

Agoz
10-07-2010, 04:03
I'm going with bonecruncher myself, for you warriors of chaos players, how about that fearsome shout thing? the 2d6 str 1 hits, no armor saves?

Or was it blood curdling roar?

mortetvie
10-07-2010, 04:07
In the stank entry, it says that it treats all difficult terrain as impassible. With the large ammount of terrain now in games, it might be kind of lol to deploy terrain so close that the stank will have maybe only 1 or 2 avenues of passage or none really, I dunno but it can probably be reliably ignored while you kill the other aspects of the army.

I understand that it is easier said then done but just pointing out the limitations the stank has in getting to you. You will fight the stank on your terms if you want to, more likely than not. Also, a lot of armies will have an issue with it, I agree. The T10 makes it pretty over the top imo but what can you do!

Empire are the IG of fantasy!

Also, whoever was talking about TK stonethrowers getting killed by empire cannons, fair enough but the stonethrowers can be deployed out of LOS and still shoot while tombscorpions/swarms destroy empire artillery and or be deployed behind a casket now that it has a good shot at surviving a cannon shot with t10/4+ ward =). *shrug* its going to be a paint none the less.

_dandaman_
10-07-2010, 04:21
My problem with the Stank is to even have a chance to kill it, I need 5 repeater bolt throwers and a lot of lucky rolling, and that would take me an entire game, not to mention that the RBTs would cost 500 points and the Skank is 300 points!

SilasOfTheLambs
10-07-2010, 04:30
The basic problem with the steam tank (I speak as a fairly long-term empire player) is that it never under any circumstances kills anything. It's a tar pit, plain and simple. Even in 7th, I don't think I actually lost the whole tank more than once or twice, but in effect it could be stuck by an 80-pt unit of zombies.

The steam tank has all the weaknesses of, say, brettonian knights, but on steroids. It must absolutely destroy its enemy right when it hits, or it is likely to be stuck forever. This is the reason I don't take one at under 3k, and will probably continue that pattern.

In short, the thing has always been nearly impossible to kill off entirely. The tactica for dealing with it are therefore less changed than one might think.

All this aside... all the complaints about the imba steam tank ignore one critical fact: the army it's in. Empire have been low-to-mid tier all through 7th, and nobody's saying they're the new daemons no matter whether the steam tank is t50. It's like all the b*tching about thorek... he was OP, perhaps, but dwarfs still always seemed to lose. How about a little perspective?

Souppilgrim
10-07-2010, 04:33
Why bother killing the steam tank? It's at best a moderate offensive threat...at BEST. Pretty much everything else in the Empire, quite conveniently, is easy to kill. Ignore those 300 points and kill everything else or if you are really frisky, just put 3 wounds on it and watch it's offensive power go from moderate to poor.

Skyros
10-07-2010, 04:57
My problem with the Stank is to even have a chance to kill it, I need 5 repeater bolt throwers and a lot of lucky rolling, and that would take me an entire game, not to mention that the RBTs would cost 500 points and the Skank is 300 points!

Don't focus on killing the steamtank. Waste of time. Focus on disabling the steam tank and then destroying the rest of his army. Much better idea.

This was the case in 7th, it's the case now. The steam tank is simply too obnoxiously hard to kill to justify wailing on it once its been disabled when there is *anything else* to fight.

Complaining that the steamtank is hard to kill and can tarpit your units is kind of like complaining ironbreakers are hard to kill and can tarpit your units - that's it's job.

Granted, the 10W but only the first 5 are needed to completely disable the steamtank is silly.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
10-07-2010, 05:09
Watched a match today where Seaguard buffed with Okkam Mindrazor clocked it. Ironically, I think Wood Elves can now treesing it into a corner more easily now that there are more terrain pieces on average.

No2Wookie
10-07-2010, 05:24
I have no idea what my Lizards are going to do against that thing now that it's T10

Well, aside from magical means (generally augments) and a skink tarpit, perhaps a giant bow or two? Remember that you don't have to kill it: you just have to drop it to 5 wounds or so.

A carnosaur general should also be able to put up a decent thrashing.

StarFyre
10-07-2010, 05:48
Maybe not...carnosaur+lord would still need 6s to wound it with most weapons (maybe some new magic weapons are better than what lizardmen have in their rulebook)

Sanjay

Ghazbad_Facestompa
10-07-2010, 06:57
I suspect that I can get rid of many Empire DD and then Mork Wants Ya. Of course, if I know I'll be facing a Stank, I'll field a giant and do what I can to neutralize artillery. Or take a warboss with the orc runefang.

ironsons
10-07-2010, 11:02
Has anyone considered that a TK can potentially destroy the thing if they can get a bone giant in combat with it and just play the dice game with it using unstoppable assault. It will be tedious but you should eventually kill it in one round of combat.

Mandragola
10-07-2010, 11:13
It does seem tricky to kill. Empire as a whole look dangerous now.

The thing about tar pitting the stank is that it actually isn't crazily expensive compared to a lot of other units in 8th. Any unit that can hold it up is going to have to cost real points, and survive the firepower coming its way. Then you have to last through the grinding and the steam gun. Meanwhile as mentioned above, you can lose VPs for your tar pit dying, but the empire guy risks nothing very much.

Another problem is that the thing can be repaired now by a lore of life wizard. Lifebloom and regrowth both seem to work on it.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-07-2010, 12:07
It does seem tricky to kill. Empire as a whole look dangerous now.

The thing about tar pitting the stank is that it actually isn't crazily expensive compared to a lot of other units in 8th. Any unit that can hold it up is going to have to cost real points, and survive the firepower coming its way. Then you have to last through the grinding and the steam gun. Meanwhile as mentioned above, you can lose VPs for your tar pit dying, but the empire guy risks nothing very much.

Another problem is that the thing can be repaired now by a lore of life wizard. Lifebloom and regrowth both seem to work on it.

Only spells with a strength value work on it, don't they? If you are saying the FAQ changed this, this has been discussed and it doesn't seem to be the case.

Nixon

Havock
10-07-2010, 13:08
no, its a caviat, removes the unit instead of str hits, something which the stupid machines immune too because of plot armour.

(its effectively immune to the warp...)

No, it still has a strength value, it's just that it has a special rule kicking in the moment you roll S11+.

At best an Empire player could argue that it ignores the special 'suck away' rule and counts at S11/12.

Mandragola
10-07-2010, 13:14
Only spells with a strength value work on it, don't they? If you are saying the FAQ changed this, this has been discussed and it doesn't seem to be the case.

Nixon

Ahh true. I suppose you could argue that lifebloom isn't actually a spell, instead a side-effect of casting spells, but you would have to get used to being punched in the face.

Oberon
10-07-2010, 13:17
By the way, in the WoC FAQ gateway rolling 11+ is a strenght value still, there's no escaping the infernal gateway. Except with the Carstein ring...

PARTYCHICORITA
10-07-2010, 13:51
Er, why? The basic spell would be guaranteed to take the steamtank out of the fight in one casting. Does that sound balanced to you?

Yes; it's only one spell with high casting value, still a random number of hits and the empire still packs a TON of dispel dice, plus your caster has to choose lore of metal at army list creation, not before the battle. Metal was able to wipe the Stank on one turn on 7th and the darn thing was still nasty. It's just nastier now.


How do you plan to kill the anvil of doom, casket of souls, or cauldron of blood?

In combat, just as in 7th and 6th. As far as i can tell the Stank is the only unit in the game with T10 in both combat and shooting, also u seem to forget that the casket, cauldron and anvil were Indestructable on 7th edition, killing T10 may be hard but trying to destroy something that cannot be destroy seems harder; sure, you could try to kill the crew but 2/3 of your shooting would go to waste vs the larger model.

Also to say a 250+ points tarpit would just stop the Stank is not very realistic; first you are talking about a unit that's gonna TRY to stop the tank and cost almost as much as the tank itself, second, you are under the impression the tank will get no support to deal with said unit.

+1 to hit large targets is also gone so the tank is actually harder to hit with anything that uses BS. That alone was a boost good enough to stop anyone complainning on how a bolt thrower could stop it to easly (which as an elf player i've found to be false all over 7th edition)

mortetvie
10-07-2010, 17:21
About the TK bonegiant.... yes you get the first 5 autohits but you don't auto wound and need 6s to do so, not reliable considering the ammount of flack coming your way. The extra attacks are only generated by wounding hits.

Bone Giant is totally worthless vs gunlines and not necessary (though when it does get into combat it could be spectacular but it has to get there first) =(.

Not to mention it costs 220 points by itself.

xv8
10-07-2010, 18:11
the mindrazor and 10 dragon princes with tyrion

kaintxu
10-07-2010, 18:14
Skyros how can you say you just, make a few wounds to rend it uselss and done?

For starters, to make those few wounds, your gonna have a tough time, on the meanwhile, he can grind down many units.

Plus if you go for those wounds, its effort waster on not getting any VP, while the oponnents can go getting VP from you.

at 2500 points, thats 600 points denial, and 600 points that are going to kill you stuff, since your most probably not going to have enough stuff to make them both useless, plus combines chrage is going to make you go to hell, while he is going to be laughing out loud on your face.

T10 W10 1+AS is way over the tough, and yes its the hardest thing to kill since it has tones of wounds, and resist in close combat more than any other thing with T10 even if those have 4++WS

Just think on GD, they are way expensiver, way easier to kill, and a Bloddthister is going to average 0.7777777 wounds per combat, and on the meanwhile, if the tank wants to be save and take 3 SP is doing 2 wounds to the thister, which whill make him win combat, and end up killing it quite before. No other monster in rare-especial units stands a chance against a bloodthister or a KoS but here comes the tank.

The hydra is doing an average of 0,555 wounds while the tank drawing 4 SP which he can first and maybe second turn will do 2.6 wounds, yea its expensiver almost 2 hydras, but still, rendes allmos useless both hydras, maybe even kill one and tarpit the other one thats 300 points not killed, for 350 points that cost both hydrsa while the empire player gets 175

All this assuming the tank does not charge, just imagin a 5SP charge for 6D6 S6 attacks which average 21 S6 hits. which insta kills hydras, thister.......

Skyros
10-07-2010, 20:31
Another problem is that the thing can be repaired now by a lore of life wizard. Lifebloom and regrowth both seem to work on it.

Regrowth definitely does *not* work on. Nor does the warrior priest healing spell.

In fact, no healing spell works on it. Lifebloom will work if lore perks are not considered spells, and won't work if lore perks are considered spells.

It's not quite clear if they are spells or aren't spells, or how the steamtank handles things like the fire or beasts perks. I think a steamtank that's getting healed would be overpowered, but I see no reason the fire or beast perks shouldn't work.

SeaSwift
10-07-2010, 20:38
In this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260211&page=25), someone came up with the idea of sui-charging Caradryan (HE SC) into the STank - seems to work if you ask me, but would be an awful waste of points for an unreliable outcome and is a no-no for an all-comers list.

Skyros
10-07-2010, 21:03
Skyros how can you say you just, make a few wounds to rend it uselss and done?

Because that's how the steamtank works. Or rather, doesn't work, since the 'few wounds to immobilize, bucket of wounds to kill' is a very flawed dynamic.



For starters, to make those few wounds, your gonna have a tough time, on the meanwhile, he can grind down many units.

All it takes is one or two HIGH S multi wound hits and the steamtank is deprived of the vast bulk of his power. Two cannon hits or stone thrower hits, one wounds, does D6 wounds, no armor save, steamtank can barely generate any steam points.

Now, maybe you're not an army with good high S long range shooting. Try to deal with the steamtank some other way. I wouldn't try to stop the steamtank with shooting unless I was a army with very good shooting.



Plus if you go for those wounds, its effort waster on not getting any VP, while the oponnents can go getting VP from you.

No change from 7th here. Steamtank is never worth trying to kill unless the entire rest of the army is dead. Either deal a few wounds to immobilize it, or tarpit it with a cheap unit.

We steamtank was not some overpowered monster of greatness that propelled the empire to the top tier in 7th, I should point out.

And, again, yes, having to only do a couple wounds to immobilize the steamtank but having to do 10 to kill it is retarded. I'm all in favor of GW dropping the wounds to 5, and letting it generate steampoints less than or equal to the remaining number of wounds.

This works out to no real drop in steamtank performance, but you only have to deal half as many wounds to kill it.



T10 W10 1+AS is way over the tough, and yes its the hardest thing to kill since it has tones of wounds, and resist in close combat more than any other thing with T10 even if those have 4++WS

It needs to be more resistant in close combat, because it's a close combat unit. It's less resistant to long range fire than any of the T10 units with a 4++ WS, which makes sense, because those are all long range units.

And, AGAIN, you don't have to kill the steamtank to stop it. Only a few wounds is sufficient to stop it. A unit is not overpowered just because it doesn't give you VP when it dies :p



All this assuming the tank does not charge, just imagin a 5SP charge for 6D6 S6 attacks

No wonder you think the steamtank is overpowered, that's not even how it works. It's D3 impact hits, not D6. A 5 SP generation has a chance of not working and causing the tank a wound even if he is at full strength. You're far more likely to see a 4 SP generation which is a 12" charge range. Any monster can do better than that.

Moreover, the steamtank is no killier than before. You act like a steamtank charging people in 8th is somehow more damaging than the steamtank charging in 7th. A steamtank charging a hydra was bad for the hydra in 7th, and it's bad for the hydra in 8th. An infantry block being breathed on by a hydra was bad in 7th, it's even worse in 8th. Different units are better at fighting different things.

Surely you don't bregrudge the empire having a single unit that might give all those nasty beasties a pause in close combat?

Skyros
10-07-2010, 21:04
In this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260211&page=25), someone came up with the idea of sui-charging Caradryan (HE SC) into the STank - seems to work if you ask me, but would be an awful waste of points for an unreliable outcome and is a no-no for an all-comers list.

I think caradryan and korhil got majorly boosted. They are also not very expensive, as far as SC's go. They are cheaper than any empire special character, for example, and far more powerful. That's not a complaint, that's how the high elf army works. I'd be very tempted to take both of them in an all comers HE list.

kaintxu
10-07-2010, 23:38
Skyros, that last sentence was a mistake, if you check all the math above, its done with D3 not D6, i do know its D6, a listtle mistake on my side.

Still, ok if you think it should be reduced to W5, i totally agree with something like that.

Cambion Daystar
11-07-2010, 00:08
Still, ok if you think it should be reduced to W5, i totally agree with something like that.
But only if it automaticly generates SP with no chance of wounding itself...

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 00:14
This unit is seriously overpowered. Not only is it ridiculous to kill but it inficts something like 5d3 str 6 hits ! So it also whipes out entire units pretty effectively.

Spend 1000pts trying to kill it and you've still got to deal with the rest of the army shooting you to bits ! This unit just goes too far !

T10 1+ save ! come off it ! Then it gets 10 wounds ! and str 6 hits !!!!!!!!

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 00:17
Because that's how the steamtank works. Or rather, doesn't work, since the 'few wounds to immobilize, bucket of wounds to kill' is a very flawed dynamic.



All it takes is one or two HIGH S multi wound hits and the steamtank is deprived of the vast bulk of his power. Two cannon hits or stone thrower hits, one wounds, does D6 wounds, no armor save, steamtank can barely generate any steam points.

Now, maybe you're not an army with good high S long range shooting. Try to deal with the steamtank some other way. I wouldn't try to stop the steamtank with shooting unless I was a army with very good shooting.



No change from 7th here. Steamtank is never worth trying to kill unless the entire rest of the army is dead. Either deal a few wounds to immobilize it, or tarpit it with a cheap unit.

We steamtank was not some overpowered monster of greatness that propelled the empire to the top tier in 7th, I should point out.

And, again, yes, having to only do a couple wounds to immobilize the steamtank but having to do 10 to kill it is retarded. I'm all in favor of GW dropping the wounds to 5, and letting it generate steampoints less than or equal to the remaining number of wounds.

This works out to no real drop in steamtank performance, but you only have to deal half as many wounds to kill it.



It needs to be more resistant in close combat, because it's a close combat unit. It's less resistant to long range fire than any of the T10 units with a 4++ WS, which makes sense, because those are all long range units.

And, AGAIN, you don't have to kill the steamtank to stop it. Only a few wounds is sufficient to stop it. A unit is not overpowered just because it doesn't give you VP when it dies :p



No wonder you think the steamtank is overpowered, that's not even how it works. It's D3 impact hits, not D6. A 5 SP generation has a chance of not working and causing the tank a wound even if he is at full strength. You're far more likely to see a 4 SP generation which is a 12" charge range. Any monster can do better than that.

Moreover, the steamtank is no killier than before. You act like a steamtank charging people in 8th is somehow more damaging than the steamtank charging in 7th. A steamtank charging a hydra was bad for the hydra in 7th, and it's bad for the hydra in 8th. An infantry block being breathed on by a hydra was bad in 7th, it's even worse in 8th. Different units are better at fighting different things.

Surely you don't bregrudge the empire having a single unit that might give all those nasty beasties a pause in close combat?

5d3 and you have a chance of stopping but you charge further.
4d3 HITS 12 inch charge..

name me another 200-300 pt model in the game that can inflict that much carnage.

3-12 HITS and str 6.

Chaos lord has 5 attacks. Will probably miss 2, inflicts only 3 hits at str 5 which is the worst case scenario for the steak tank. Nothing else in the game can inflict 12 or 15 str 6 hits frm a single model.

This model is a joke !

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 00:20
If it uses only 3 steam points that is still 3-9 hits at a range of 9
2 points it is 2-6 hits with a range of 6
these are pure hits on a T10 1+ model... still nothing to complain about
when you look at the amount of damage other things inflict
the steam tank should be around 500-600 pts

Souppilgrim
11-07-2010, 00:26
5d3 and you have a chance of stopping but you charge further.
4d3 HITS 12 inch charge..

name me another 200-300 pt model in the game that can inflict that much carnage.

3-12 HITS and str 6.

Chaos lord has 5 attacks. Will probably miss 2, inflicts only 3 hits at str 5 which is the worst case scenario for the steak tank. Nothing else in the game can inflict 12 or 15 str 6 hits frm a single model.

This model is a joke !

You have got to be kidding. It safely does 4d3 str 6 hits. and ONLY on it's own turn. There are many many things with more offensive power (that fly) than the steam tank. How hard is it to tarpit/avoid something that doesn't fly? Seriously l2p. A greater daemon, big dragon, etc are all much more damaging and harder to avoid.

Skyros
11-07-2010, 00:45
name me another 200-300 pt model in the game that can inflict that much carnage.

That's trivially easy.

4d3 S6 hits every other combat round is, frankly, pretty pathetic. That works out to 8 S6 hits every other combat round or 4 S6 hits in each combat round.

Anything from dwarven hammerers with great weapons to the hellpit abomination can do better than that. The HPA can do 3D6 S6 hits in EACH combat phase. Any level 1 wizard can take lore of beasts and transform into a mountain chimera and run around doing 4d6 S7 poisoned attacks. And you're worried about the steamtank?

Just about *every* big monster in the game is capable of dealing quite a bit more than 4 S6 hits in each combat round.

soots
11-07-2010, 00:58
stank can potentially do 18 S6 hits
Abomb can potentially do 30 S6 hits

miscellaneous hero char + GW + potion of strength. 3 wounds is what you really want to disable it.

or miscellaneous cheap unit with 3-4 ranks will disable it for the game.

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 00:59
That's trivially easy.

4d3 S6 hits every other combat round is, frankly, pretty pathetic. That works out to 8 S6 hits every other combat round or 4 S6 hits in each combat round.

Anything from dwarven hammerers with great weapons to the hellpit abomination can do better than that. The HPA can do 3D6 S6 hits in EACH combat phase. Any level 1 wizard can take lore of beasts and transform into a mountain chimera and run around doing 4d6 S7 poisoned attacks. And you're worried about the steamtank?

Just about *every* big monster in the game is capable of dealing quite a bit more than 4 S6 hits in each combat round.

uuummm 4 str 6 hits is still pretty damned good ! And it is NOT 4 per turn it is 8 in ONE turn - that is a pretty big difference.

4d6 ATTACKS. Meaning it is random and has a chance to miss.

Steam tank are automatic HITS, this is a huge advantage.

Also cannot lose combat and basically cannot die.

If you can't see how that is broken then maybe try taking a WOC army against 2 steam tanks and 2 cannons. Let me know how you go ! LMAO !

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 01:01
You have got to be kidding. It safely does 4d3 str 6 hits. and ONLY on it's own turn. There are many many things with more offensive power (that fly) than the steam tank. How hard is it to tarpit/avoid something that doesn't fly? Seriously l2p. A greater daemon, big dragon, etc are all much more damaging and harder to avoid.

uummm yeah ! And they die to shooting or a cannon in one turn ! You need to learn2play not me. Those units you mention are not T10 with a 1+ either ! Theory hammer does not work on the table.

o0-NattyMcFatty-0o
11-07-2010, 01:03
i thought that in cc, anvils, caskets and caulddrons are hit on the crews toughness, does this not make them easier to kill (sorry, i just need clarification of this, they're a common thing in my gamers club, luckily steam tanks arent, but i aim to rune a giant in, try and thump with club, fail and get run over :D)

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 01:06
Well I'm pretty sure that in tourneys an empire list with a steam tank will need to be serious concessions or get bounced then it will still get a really low comp score !

Looks like empire are on par with 7th ed demons only worse. That's ok though guys, lets use our str3 bows or our 8 str 4 attacks to try and wound this model with T10, 10W and a 1+ save. Yay.

o0-NattyMcFatty-0o
11-07-2010, 01:11
ermmm...is this just incorrect speculation...or do empire and dwarves look severely overpowered now? oh well, if they are i shall just make an army that looks cool

HellRaid
11-07-2010, 01:29
Vampire Counts have a couple of options.

Lord with Frostblade, Beguile, Abyssal Terror, Dread Knight. Almost guarantees the charge and will insta-kill if you manage to wound. Also insta-kills popemobiles, cannons and everything else. Not very economical though.

Zombie tarpit. 'Nuff said.

Wraiths and tomb banshee. The scream might even kill it, if you're lucky!

My personal favourite (because you lose *nothing* doing it): Cast Wind of Undeath. Cast Vanhels. Steam tank is now locked with an ethereal spirit host (hopefully only one base wide) that you got for free, and that it cannot kill under any circumstance. Yay!

Souppilgrim
11-07-2010, 01:41
uummm yeah ! And they die to shooting or a cannon in one turn ! You need to learn2play not me. Those units you mention are not T10 with a 1+ either ! Theory hammer does not work on the table.

It's not theoryhammer to know that you can avoid something that moves about 12 inches easier than you can something that can fly 20. Those things might die to a cannon, if the cannon doesn't misfire, overshoot, die to hounds or harpies or something similar, rolls high enough on the wounds, and you don't make any ward saves. You also have to be dumb enough to not have those things either behind a tree, in combat (which makes it immune to cannons) etc

The fact is that the ST has minor to moderate offensive power. You need to ask yourself why you are trying to kill it. It's not effective points denial either....the rest of the army is toughness 3, or 4 on some characters. As an empire player, i'd take 2 doomwheels over a ST ANY day. They are a much higher threat and pretty sturdy.

Chaos257
11-07-2010, 02:24
It's not theoryhammer to know that you can avoid something that moves about 12 inches easier than you can something that can fly 20. Those things might die to a cannon, if the cannon doesn't misfire, overshoot, die to hounds or harpies or something similar, rolls high enough on the wounds, and you don't make any ward saves. You also have to be dumb enough to not have those things either behind a tree, in combat (which makes it immune to cannons) etc

The fact is that the ST has minor to moderate offensive power. You need to ask yourself why you are trying to kill it. It's not effective points denial either....the rest of the army is toughness 3, or 4 on some characters. As an empire player, i'd take 2 doomwheels over a ST ANY day. They are a much higher threat and pretty sturdy.

Chaos Lord can easily kill the rider. He can't scratch a steam tank.

If you think 8 str 6 hits is nothing, you don't play chaos. That is 7 dead chaos warriors that can't hurt the bloody thing back. Plus all of its shooting. The steam tank is devastating. We can strike back and kill the dragon, we can't hurt the steam tannk.

I can't believe I'm having to argue that 7 dead chaos warriors in one turn of combat is not strong offensive power. Say 20 sword masters strike us they might kill 3 or 4 more dudes, but then next turn we can hammer the unit into oblivion. And if we have sword and sheild we probably won't take many hits. There is a huge difference.

A dragon we can be stubborn against and beat in combat (i'm assuming flank does not negate steadfast).

You are clearly an empire player....

alfika
11-07-2010, 03:39
Bretonnia will have a fair chance with either trebuchets or charachters with heroic killing blow or the Sword Of The Ladys Champion.

A Bretonnia lord will ruin the steam tank pretty easy with 6 or 7 attacks with heroic killing blow the steam tank is bye bye.

My try for a all-round killer is:

Bretonnia Lord: 260p
Pegasus, HA, Shield
Virtue of Heroism (Heroic Killing Blow)
Sword of Strife (+2 Attacks)
Potion of Strength (for those foes that might be immune to KB)

6 Attacks when charging will give a fairly good chance to KB anything

or

Bretonnia Lord
Grail Vow, HA, Shield, Pegasus
Sword of the Lady's Champion
Virtue of Heroism
Curiass of Fortune

4 Attacks S=10 Auto hit, re-roll 1s to wound and HKB

Not as good at killing the steam tank but good enough to rend it almost useless.

RichBlake
11-07-2010, 12:46
My try for a all-round killer is:

Bretonnia Lord: 260p
Pegasus, HA, Shield
Virtue of Heroism (Heroic Killing Blow)
Sword of Strife (+2 Attacks)
Potion of Strength (for those foes that might be immune to KB)

6 Attacks when charging will give a fairly good chance to KB anything



To be honest I don't really know anyone who is immune to killing blow from a rule, and Heroic Killing Blow works on any infantry type too.

I'd take a lord with:

Virtue of Heroism (Heroic Killing Blow)
Sword of Bloodshed (+3 attacks)

Assuming your lord has 4 attacks standard that's 7 attacks and a roll of a 6 allows him to insta-gib anything, not just the steam tank.

As this works against anything not just Stanks if the virtue doesn't count towards magical items I'd seriously consider also giving him the Potion of Speed. +3 to Initiative means you don't risk charing into something and being killed before you get to work your magic.

shortlegs
11-07-2010, 15:51
You cannot use a magical item with the Virtue of Heroism. So only 4 KB attacks, not 7.

yabbadabba
11-07-2010, 15:58
Most Empire players are going to question taking a points denial tar pit vs the far more potentially dangerous hellstorm, especially as players get over excited about the horde rules for the first few months.
Take a few wound off and then make the empire player sweat it on whether to use enough steam points to catch you.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 17:15
You cannot use a magical item with the Virtue of Heroism. So only 4 KB attacks, not 7.

You are bad. Go read the FAQ.

The entire virtue has been changed to "This model has Heroic Killing Blow." That's all it says, nothing more, nothing less.

Skyros
11-07-2010, 19:40
uuummm 4 str 6 hits is still pretty damned good !

No, it's really not. That's the fighting power of 8 dwarven hammerers, who cost 88 points. I don't know what planet you're living on, but please come back to reality :p



And it is NOT 4 per turn it is 8 in ONE turn - that is a pretty big difference.

Not so much in the 8th edition world where any unit with even 1 rank will be stubborn. In 7th, you'd be correct. But you are worried about the steamtank grinding units to dust over several turns - so we look at the average it does vs combat phase.



4d6 ATTACKS. Meaning it is random

You know that 4d3 attacks is random too, right?

On average, the mountain chimera will get twice as many attacks as the steamtank. Or, well, 4x as many once you realize the mountain chimera fights in every round to just the one of the steamtank.




Also cannot lose combat

It can lose combat. It automatically loses combat against anything with even 1 point of CR in the combat phases where it doesn't have steam points (IE - all the opponents combat phases).

Honestly, your analysis is so bad it's funny.

Skyros
11-07-2010, 19:49
Chaos Lord can easily kill the rider. He can't scratch a steam tank.

If you think 8 str 6 hits is nothing, you don't play chaos. That is 7 dead chaos warriors that can't hurt the bloody thing back. Plus all of its shooting

The shooting happens *instead* of using steam points, and if you roll a misfire, it does D3 wounds to the steamtank.

If your opponent wastes time firing the steamtanks cannon, which takes 2 steam points and does D3 wound, you should absolutely dance up and down with glee.

I can't believe how reliably wrong you are in every single point :p




I can't believe I'm having to argue that 7 dead chaos warriors in one turn of combat is not strong offensive power.

7 dead chaos warriors is not hard to achieve for S6 units. 14 White Lions would kill ~10 chaos warriors, and would do that every turn, not just the one in which they charged.

Oh and, they cost quite a bit less than the steamtank.

That's why the steamtank is quite survivable. It's offensive power, for its cost, *sucks*. 4 S 6 hits per combat phase. Oh wow. :rolleyes:



A dragon we can be stubborn against and beat in combat (i'm assuming flank does not negate steadfast).

You are stubborn against the steamtank too...


You are clearly an empire player....

Whereas you clearly are a clueless player.

Although empire is far from the only army I play. And I'm not taking the steamtank because, as I've pointed out, I don't think it's particularly cost effective. It's hard to kill, but anything else it does can, I feel, be accomplished better by other units.

Maybe after playing some more games of 8th I'll change my mind, but right now I'm happy to use cheap as chips infantry to tarpit people and using greatswords/knights to kill them.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-07-2010, 20:00
No, it's really not. That's the fighting power of 8 dwarven hammerers, who cost 88 points. I don't know what planet you're living on, but please come back to reality :p


It's 96 points actually, and there are various other factors to take into account than just saying "but it's offensive power is the same as so little points of infantrymen", things like survivability and speed. Those factors don't give that comparison much credence.


You know that 4d3 attacks is random too, right?

On average, the mountain chimera will get twice as many attacks as the steamtank. Or, well, 4x as many once you realize the mountain chimera fights in every round to just the one of the steamtank.


d6 does not have an average result of twice a d3, the average result of a d6 is 3.5, while the average result of a d3 is 2. Not refuting your point, just letting you know.


It can lose combat. It automatically loses combat against anything with even 1 point of CR in the combat phases where it doesn't have steam points (IE - all the opponents combat phases).

He probably meant it cannot lose a combat as in the general sense of the entire fight between it and the unit it is engaged with taken to conclusion after several turns.

And 14 white lions would on average kill 9 actually, just to be pedantic.

Nixon

Vsurma
11-07-2010, 20:46
You have got to be kidding. It safely does 4d3 str 6 hits. and ONLY on it's own turn. There are many many things with more offensive power (that fly) than the steam tank. How hard is it to tarpit/avoid something that doesn't fly? Seriously l2p. A greater daemon, big dragon, etc are all much more damaging and harder to avoid.

Indeed! to prove his point I shall name all these flyers that do more damange....

Hmmm thirster.... 5 wounds on average...
Same as steam tank with 2.5 steam points.... hmm ok not thirster..

BIG dragon....um hmmm no no, DE one does the same 5 wounds, others do less (star dragon gets 4.7 hits on average)

Hmmmm.... red uber summoned dragon.....hmm no still 5 wounds (though it does do them against pretty much anything....anything that isn't a steam tank of course....that it cannot harm)

Yea... so yea, all better... right?

The mountain chimera I would say is harder, but it requires you to actually cast it, it not be dispelled etc.

Skyros
11-07-2010, 20:48
It's 96 points actually, and there are various other factors to take into account than just saying "but it's offensive power is the same as so little points of infantrymen", things like survivability and speed./quote]

I did mention the survivability. ;) I think pointing out it's offensive power isn't that great is relevant when discussing if its survivability is in line. ESPECIALLY when someone is making the absurd claim that nothing in the game comes close to the sheer awesome destructive power of the steamtank.

It's destructive power is actually quite mild for the points - it's the survivability that makes it strong.

Speedwise, it's true that now just about everyone can charge significantly farther than the steamtank on 4 SP, but the average is about the same. Of course, infantry keep going their full movement no matter how many wounds they've taken, whereas the steamtank very quickly drops off in effectiveness if even a single wound or two is taken.

[QUOTE=NixonAsADaemonPrince;4810940] Those factors don't give that comparison much credence.

I don't believe so. Any unit in WFB can be compared credibly, if appropriate care is taken to point out the differences. It's very easy to credibly compare a specific aspect of various troops, such as offense.



d6 does not have an average result of twice a d3, the average result of a d6 is 3.5, while the average result of a d3 is 2.

Yes, but the mountain chimera is frenzied and thus gets an additional attack.
So 4d3 = 8 vs 4d6 = 14+1 = 15. Close enough for my purposes :)



He probably meant it cannot lose a combat as in the general sense of the entire fight between it and the unit it is engaged with taken to conclusion after several turns.

Well, but that's not what 'losing combat' means. Losing the combat has a pretty specific meaning - you have less CR than the other guy.

I do think it's silly it takes so long to kill compared to neutralizing it. I said so in 7th and said I hoped GW would fix it.

The thing needs 5 wounds, same as every other 10T model. The steam point generation would need to be changed of course.

Unlike just about every other monster, the steamtank greatly loses performance as he loses wounds. A doomwheel or HPA can be running around on 1 wound and still dealing utter devastation, but a steamtank who can only have one SP is no threat to anyone.

I'd suggest making the steamtank 5 wounds and just giving it 4 SP per turn to use as he wishes.

Note that this would make the cannon misfire even more devastating (taking D3 out of 5 instead of D3 out of 10) but firing the cannon on the steamtank is a waste of time.

Vsurma
11-07-2010, 20:49
stank can potentially do 18 S6 hits
Abomb can potentially do 30 S6 hits

miscellaneous hero char + GW + potion of strength. 3 wounds is what you really want to disable it.

or miscellaneous cheap unit with 3-4 ranks will disable it for the game.

Exactly, everyone should just run the "miscellaneous" hero with GW and potion. Now said hero should of course have a base strength of 6-7 to have any real chance. S5 heroes after drinking the potion wound on 6s hooray...

Unfortunately I myself play lizardmen... we are known for having among the best heroes but yea, after potion of strength our lord wounds on a 6+.

Who is this "miscellaneous" hero?

Skyros
11-07-2010, 20:57
Indeed! to prove his point I shall name all these flyers that do more damange....

Hmmm thirster.... 5 wounds on average...
Same as steam tank with 2.5 steam points.... hmm ok not thirster..

Bloodthirster has 7 S6 attacks + another D6 S6 hits...*every round*

so, in 2 rounds, the steamtank (if it's taken NO damage) will have done 4d3 S6 hits, and the bloodthirster will have done 2d6 S6 hits + 14 S6 attacks at WS 10.

There is no question that the bloodthirster is more damaging than a steamtank.

Skyros
11-07-2010, 20:59
Now said hero should of course have a base strength of 6-7 to have any real chance. S5 heroes after drinking the potion wound on 6s hooray...

S5 hero + great weapon + potion = STR 10 = wounding on 4's.

The potion of strength doesnt' say anything about being unable to use your weapons. Maybe you are thinking of the old beasts spell?

Vsurma
11-07-2010, 21:18
Bloodthirster has 7 S6 attacks + another D6 S6 hits...*every round*

so, in 2 rounds, the steamtank (if it's taken NO damage) will have done 4d3 S6 hits, and the bloodthirster will have done 2d6 S6 hits + 14 S6 attacks at WS 10.

There is no question that the bloodthirster is more damaging than a steamtank.

The "every" round while true is also sort of pointless, seeing as most things that hit the tank wound it on a 6 and give a 2+ save (so they pretty much do nothing) so yea the tank kills less but it takes nothing back, it doesn't care if it loses etc.

A steamtank can fairly easily move up 12" turn 1, 12" turn 2 and charge turn 3 the latest, maybe turn 2.

It will go for the best target possible of course. Armies that have good tarpits are fine, armies with cannons/stone throwers have a chance, they actually have the option of doing the 3-4 wounds and leaving it alone, unfortunately all armies do not.

I play lizardmen myself. The 4d3 + normal impact hits? it does on the first charge will break most of my units.

I played a game today against 2, against my templeguard the tank killed 8,7,6 in its 3 rounds of CC, my halberds did 0 wounds, no failed saves after my 6s to wound.

Another saurus unit was also grinded down, about 20 dead over 3 turns. Yes I did get to attack it on my CC phase while he could not attack me, but 6 to wound followed by a 2+ save just doesn't work.

Magic doesn't work, the hunters spear seems ok but otherwise there aren't a lot of spells out there. Mindrazor or good for units with ld9 but those are rare, otherwise your stuck wounding on 6s.

In our game I took out the opponents mages on turn 2 so my 2 slanns and priest could dominate the magic phase, I killed most everything but his 2 tanks just get grinding me down.

I honestly wasn't too happy that in a 2400pts game, despite killing pretty much everything else, he still pulled out the win since his 2 tanks killed a Templeguard with slann and a saurus block.

At one point I got some skinks into the tanks flank but eventually other units came to save the tank.

Unfortunately I play an army with no effective shooting against them, no effective CC, not from normal units and not from characters... It has no crumble like the undead... Despite most everything else going great in the end I managed only 4 wounds on 1 tank and 2 on the other, basically all from me wounding on 6s and him failing 2+ saves.

I had about 1500pts fighting his 600pts of steamtanks but I made no real dent.

I think they went a tad overboard with the steamtank. A giants defence is high T, but no save.... the best dragons have T6 3+, to go from that to T10 W10 1+ save.

Seems crazy. If they where 0-1 then it would just be annoying, with 2 possible at 2400pts it gets a bit sad.

I think there should be a way to take out any unit in the game, with any army. Having units that are pretty much immune against certain armies isn't a good idea.

Anyone have an idea how to take one out with lizardmen? Poison doesn't work, the engine of the gods would do 0.5 wound a turn which sucks but is about the best I can come up with, but if you factor in the empire players cannons it doesn't really count either.

Besides having the lore of beasts for the spear I don't really have many ideas.

If the opponent is poor then ranked skinks would tie it up for a while. Any support though and ws2 t2 skinks disappear, its not a good solution, but atm my only one.

Vsurma
11-07-2010, 21:19
Bloodthirster has 7 S6 attacks + another D6 S6 hits...*every round*

so, in 2 rounds, the steamtank (if it's taken NO damage) will have done 4d3 S6 hits, and the bloodthirster will have done 2d6 S6 hits + 14 S6 attacks at WS 10.

There is no question that the bloodthirster is more damaging than a steamtank.

How much was that thirster again? 300pts? How about 2 steam tanks and 1 thirster, since they cost the same.
Not that I care so much about the comparison, I can kill a thirster, my S5 halberds harm it just fine, I can hex it, -3S...pretty good. A thirster is tough but with all the nice spells available it's really not that much of a problem.

My favorite tactic when charged by a thirster is to say "challenge" then I lose 1 model, after which I might be able to flank or at least cast spells.
Against the tank I cannot hex, flanking with anything really is pretty pointless...

Vsurma
11-07-2010, 21:23
S5 hero + great weapon + potion = STR 10 = wounding on 4's.

The potion of strength doesnt' say anything about being unable to use your weapons. Maybe you are thinking of the old beasts spell?

Ok, well this will cripple 1 tank, not bad actually, I might have to run a scar vet with GW and potion, it's not the best hero for other occasions and costs half the steam tanks cost for 4 hits that wound on 4+, but it might put a few wounds on making the tank much less dangerous.

Still only solves 1 though.

Yea... I think I might just add this guy to my list, cheers for that idea.

fubukii
11-07-2010, 21:45
Ok, well this will cripple 1 tank, not bad actually, I might have to run a scar vet with GW and potion, it's not the best hero for other occasions and costs half the steam tanks cost for 4 hits that wound on 4+, but it might put a few wounds on making the tank much less dangerous.

Still only solves 1 though.

Yea... I think I might just add this guy to my list, cheers for that idea.

depending on the character you would do about 2 maybe 3 wounds that makes it leess effective, but he can still do a couple of impact hits and hold up your unit Forever.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-07-2010, 21:48
I did mention the survivability. ;) I think pointing out it's offensive power isn't that great is relevant when discussing if its survivability is in line. ESPECIALLY when someone is making the absurd claim that nothing in the game comes close to the sheer awesome destructive power of the steamtank.

It's destructive power is actually quite mild for the points - it's the survivability that makes it strong.

I in fact agree with all of this.


Speedwise, it's true that now just about everyone can charge significantly farther than the steamtank on 4 SP, but the average is about the same. Of course, infantry keep going their full movement no matter how many wounds they've taken, whereas the steamtank very quickly drops off in effectiveness if even a single wound or two is taken.

Yes, the average is about the same. It is very hard to take those wounds off for some armies as well ;). And you do need to take off more than one, as it would still be able to generate 3 safely or 5/6 of the time 4.


I don't believe so. Any unit in WFB can be compared credibly, if appropriate care is taken to point out the differences. It's very easy to credibly compare a specific aspect of various troops, such as offense.


Which I must say here, you didn't point out the differences ;).


Yes, but the mountain chimera is frenzied and thus gets an additional attack.
So 4d3 = 8 vs 4d6 = 14+1 = 15. Close enough for my purposes :)


I wasn't talking about comparing the chimera and the steam tank, I was just commenting on d3s and d6s and they way you worded you post ;).


Well, but that's not what 'losing combat' means. Losing the combat has a pretty specific meaning - you have less CR than the other guy.


Very true, but it depends on the context and over the internet, what one person thinks is clear can easily be misinterpreted (though correctly in this case).


I do think it's silly it takes so long to kill compared to neutralizing it. I said so in 7th and said I hoped GW would fix it.

The thing needs 5 wounds, same as every other 10T model. The steam point generation would need to be changed of course.

Unlike just about every other monster, the steamtank greatly loses performance as he loses wounds. A doomwheel or HPA can be running around on 1 wound and still dealing utter devastation, but a steamtank who can only have one SP is no threat to anyone.

I'd suggest making the steamtank 5 wounds and just giving it 4 SP per turn to use as he wishes.

Note that this would make the cannon misfire even more devastating (taking D3 out of 5 instead of D3 out of 10) but firing the cannon on the steamtank is a waste of time.

I agree with all of this, I'd say that would be reasonable. I'd also say T8 for all those units which are now T10, as I think that should be reserved for extremely special occasions (like krakenok the black or such like).

Nixon

kaintxu
11-07-2010, 22:15
7 dead chaos warriors is not hard to achieve for S6 units. 14 White Lions would kill ~10 chaos warriors, and would do that every turn, not just the one in which they charged.




And 14 white lions would on average kill 9 actually, just to be pedantic.


Actually your both wrong.

14 white lions against chaos warriors are 7 hits (they hit on 4+) they do not reroll because they have the same I as warriors, and out of 7 hits thats 5.833333 wounds.

If the warriors run on sword + shield its 4.05 wounds and if they have tzeentch mark its 3.25 so no way to compare it.

Anyhow, i do think that the best thing of the tank is ofensive power, the thing is, its way to tough almost unkillable in a battle for most armies, lets not talk about 2, which is a lot of points denial, but on the other hand they can kill stuff, plus since its not that easy to wound with T10, 1+ AS they are going to get at least 3 SP for long

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-07-2010, 22:43
Actually your both wrong.

14 white lions against chaos warriors are 7 hits (they hit on 4+) they do not reroll because they have the same I as warriors, and out of 7 hits thats 5.833333 wounds.

If the warriors run on sword + shield its 4.05 wounds and if they have tzeentch mark its 3.25 so no way to compare it.

I unfortunately do not have the rulebook, but in the high elf FAQ it does say "If his Initiative value is equal to or higher than his opponent’s, he will also benefit from a re-roll to hit.", when referring to the speed or asuryan rule (in reference with swordmasters, though that makes no difference). So unless that is wrong, they will do an average of 8.75 wounds. Though I agree it is perhaps not the best way to compare it.

Nixon

Gen.RifulasDykes
11-07-2010, 22:57
How much was that thirster again? 300pts? How about 2 steam tanks and 1 thirster, since they cost the same.

Unless I be reading this wrong, an Stank cost 300pts, so no, they don't cost the same. :P Unless you're saying an Stank is 300pts and the Thirster costed 600ish, in which case ignore me.

Also, all the people speaking about the Casket/Anvil/Cauldron being harder to kill than the Stank earlier, aren't they only comparable in terms of durability in the shooting department only? I thought being War Machines, in melee you use the Crew's Toughness, making them much easier to deal with in melee clearly? Albeit they would be far back and so harder to reach in melee than an Stank, but still much easier kill option compared to Stank's T10 in both departments...

Tbh only Reliable thing I see people who can't cannon the thing or Razor it etc would be to tarpit it with something cheaper and hope your remaining army can dismantle his remaining army before it breaks free again. As Sun Tzu says, avoid what is strong, attack what is weak, at least that's the best plan I can think up for my Night Gobbo theme army... For those of you who lack the ability to make such a Tarpit and lack the ability to produce the hitting power, my prayers go with you..! :<

P.S. Whoever said earlier Empire have nothing that can tackle Swordmasters in CC, try seeing how well 50 Empire Halberds with full command fair against 16 Swordmasters with full command. (Same points cost pretty much.)

RichBlake
11-07-2010, 23:07
High Elves shouldn't do too badly, they can field 5 Bolt Throwers in 2K.

They wound on 6s but they ignore armour and do D3 wounds, not bad.

tiekwando
11-07-2010, 23:45
ok but what high elf army is going to field 5 bolt throwers? and do you not have any cannons to kill my bolt throwers? Plus its no longer +1 to hit so i hit 2/3 or 1/2 wounds on 6s... Not that great for 5 bolt throwers.

On the white lion thing... I am lost why are we comparing the two. And if we are talking about chaos warriors, they kill quite a few on return attacks like 5 or more, plus tzeentch warriors with shields loose a lot less.

Finally about sword masters, any unit that has multiple ranks will do fine. Horde units especially. Or a steam tank :)

Davemaddocks
11-07-2010, 23:58
Any block unit with a decent Ld and Okkams Mindrazor cast on it (swap ld for str).

Phoenix gaurd with the above cast will tear the "panzer" to pieces.

HeroFox
12-07-2010, 00:07
Pop quiz: Once the Steam Tank gets in combat with you, can you ever leave combat with it?

If the answer is no, then no, RBTs are a bad choice. 5 RBTs is a huge point sink in this Ed.

kaintxu
12-07-2010, 00:21
okkams mindrazor if its the one that changes LD for S is not that great, not that many units have LD 9 which would wound on 5's.

With LD 8 your still screwed

Darktan
12-07-2010, 00:37
it's still fairly great, even at LD8 or 7, it much improves your chance of getting past it's armour (assuming you use this S for armour mods)

otherwise, though i assume it's been said to death, sword of always wound on 5+, potion of strength for armour mod, defensive items to taste, should put enough wounds on it to render it largely innefective.

Lord Baali
12-07-2010, 00:43
Wouldn't a chaos lord with a deamon sword be able
to put a sizable dent in a steam tank? I hate examples like this as it's corner case and I prefer ther options for my chaos lords. Infernalgateway sounds good as has been stated above putting a few wounds on the tank can take it out of the game.

Skyros
12-07-2010, 03:22
The "every" round while true is also sort of pointless, seeing as most things that hit the tank wound it on a 6 and give a 2+ save (so they pretty much do nothing) so yea the tank kills less but it takes nothing back, it doesn't care if it loses etc.

Yes. It kills less and takes less damage. The devil is in the details, but that's not an immediately obvious imbalance to me. If it killed more, cost less, and also took less damage without missing out on any other utility I think we could say we obviously had a problem.



I play lizardmen myself. The 4d3 + normal impact hits? it does on the first charge will break most of my units.

It shouldn't break any of your units as long as you have a single rank. You'll be cold blooded stubborn.



I played a game today against 2, against my templeguard the tank killed 8,7,6 in its 3 rounds of CC, my halberds did 0 wounds, no failed saves after my 6s to wound.

That's a bit of bad luck on your part. However, I dare say that is all the steamtank did that game - probably 2 turns to get into combat and then it spent 3 turns grinding down your templeguard.

Note that if you had chosen a life mage slann he could probably have healed most of that damage back :p



Another saurus unit was also grinded down, about 20 dead over 3 turns. Yes I did get to attack it on my CC phase while he could not attack me, but 6 to wound followed by a 2+ save just doesn't work.

20 dead over 3 turns doesn't sound that bad to me, honestly. Not when I've seen some units walk in and deal 16 wounds to me in one combat phase.

Dealing with two steamtanks is a MAJOR pain (speaking from personal experience) and I have no objection whatsoever to making them 0-1 (along with a half dozen other 'big nasties')



In our game I took out the opponents mages on turn 2 so my 2 slanns and priest could dominate the magic phase, I killed most everything but his 2 tanks just get grinding me down.

Sounds like the empire may need those 2 steamtanks to be competitive against a LM list with 2 slann then.



I honestly wasn't too happy that in a 2400pts game, despite killing pretty much everything else, he still pulled out the win since his 2 tanks killed a Templeguard with slann and a saurus block.

I don't see how he managed to pull out the win...he should have lost 1800 points worth (2400 - 600) and killed, what, 1200 points? How tooled up was your slann?

Can't a TG unit with a slann in it still cast magic as normal? I forget the exact wording of the slann's entry, but I know he can hop up 'above' the unit to cast spells. In which case, as long as you don't break, and can keep throwing out the magic to where you need, getting tarpitted by the steamtank may not be so bad.

Also I think you can throw direct damage spells at the steamtank even if he's in close combat. I could be wrong, not entirely down with all the different spell categories yet.



I think they went a tad overboard with the steamtank. A giants defence is high T, but no save....

I think giants are pretty gimped in 8th ed, honestly. High T, no save, will be hit by more attacks than ever.



I think there should be a way to take out any unit in the game, with any army. Having units that are pretty much immune against certain armies isn't a good idea.

I definitely agree. Asking any army to do 4 -5 wounds to a steamtank is reasonable but asking them to do 10 is often absurd and asking them to do 20 (to 2 steamtanks) can quickly become ridiculous.

GW should make the steamtank 5W and adjust the steam point generation to compensate.

qwertycg
12-07-2010, 03:50
If you roll average it takes 60+ str 4 shots to do 1 wound. Best way to kill it would be a lovely cannon to the face.

TheSaxon
12-07-2010, 03:55
double S10 trebuchets doing D6 wounds works for Brets =)

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 05:18
depending on the character you would do about 2 maybe 3 wounds that makes it leess effective, but he can still do a couple of impact hits and hold up your unit Forever.

Yea true, 2 wounds sounds most likely, which does help, the tank will be stuck using 2 steampoints or taking risks for more. The character is as good as dead though, unless you have lore of shadow to fly it out of there.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 05:25
High Elves shouldn't do too badly, they can field 5 Bolt Throwers in 2K.

They wound on 6s but they ignore armour and do D3 wounds, not bad.

Actually imo it should read

They wound on 6s but they ignore armour and do D3 wounds, BAD

5 bolts cost 500pts, they need to roll to hit, wound and then hope for a good d3 wound roll.

9 bolt throwers at short range get 1 wound in and cause on average 2 wounds. 9!

So if you have 5! (no one does) you need 2 rounds to put a dent into 1 tank. By which time they tend to be in CC.

Imo that is not "not bad" and is just "bad"

CaliforniaGamer
12-07-2010, 05:33
is anyone else holding out for the fact the T10 ST in the FAQ is in error??

Bow fire, BTs, melee hordes etc arent adding up to stopping this newly discovered "Megatron".

At T10, the ST is the singular best unit in all of WFB, bar none.

For answers to the T10 ST, there arent many:
~Stone throwers are wounding on 5+ (trebs and hellcannons on 4+)
~Cannons on 4+
~Skaven poison wind wounding on 4+
~Lucky banshee wail
~Virtue of Heroism
~Awesome Str10 Thirster on 4+

this would leave DE, WE, HE, Beastmen and LM with literally no answer to Megatron. This cant be right...

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 05:42
Yes. It kills less and takes less damage. The devil is in the details, but that's not an immediately obvious imbalance to me. If it killed more, cost less, and also took less damage without missing out on any other utility I think we could say we obviously had a problem.



It shouldn't break any of your units as long as you have a single rank. You'll be cold blooded stubborn.

Sure, but only for about 1 turn, with 12pts models, or 16pt ones, your not likely to have an extra rank (so 10-12 models min) after about 1 turn, 2 max, tanks don't really have to break your unit on the charge, your right they don't on their own, they grind them down. Though the opponent did have 2 units of 35 halberds, so much more ranks than any of my units that worked with the tanks...or at least tried to)

That's a bit of bad luck on your part. However, I dare say that is all the steamtank did that game - probably 2 turns to get into combat and then it spent 3 turns grinding down your templeguard.

It is, but I honestly felt it was enough, for them to take out a Templeguard with slann and a saurus block, it's still 900pts killed with 0 points for me. No half VPs for wounded units/models in this edition.

Note that if you had chosen a life mage slann he could probably have healed most of that damage back :p I had a life slann but it could only heal half as many wounds as where done to me, eventually other units joined the combats, the steam tanks don't work alone.



20 dead over 3 turns doesn't sound that bad to me, honestly. Not when I've seen some units walk in and deal 16 wounds to me in one combat phase.

The damage dealt is only half the equation, there are many units out there that can do a similar amount of damage, but not many that can do so at no risk to themselves.

Dealing with two steamtanks is a MAJOR pain (speaking from personal experience) and I have no objection whatsoever to making them 0-1 (along with a half dozen other 'big nasties')



Sounds like the empire may need those 2 steamtanks to be competitive against a LM list with 2 slann then.

All having 2 slanns does is allow me 4 spells each from 2 lores rather than 7 from 1, I am not entirely convinced that is worth paying 300pts for. Empire actually does quite well against spells, as priests and arch lectors add DD, my opponent had more DD than I had PD in almost every phase, even after I killed his 2 mages.

Also empire has access to all of the BRB lores so empire does just fine in the magic phase. The magic phase for everyone is pretty much a race to see who kills the opponents wizards first.

I don't see how he managed to pull out the win...he should have lost 1800 points worth (2400 - 600) and killed, what, 1200 points? How tooled up was your slann?

Would have been a tie if I hadn't messed up last turn and given up my last slann, but that is on me, either way, I basically did very well against anything he had but the steam tanks and it would have ended in a tie... Not idea imo. Might have to start running a GW, potion of strength hero.
Still it seems expensive, 130 or so points to hopefully do 2 wounds, after which the enemy kills the hero.

Can't a TG unit with a slann in it still cast magic as normal? I forget the exact wording of the slann's entry, but I know he can hop up 'above' the unit to cast spells. In which case, as long as you don't break, and can keep throwing out the magic to where you need, getting tarpitted by the steamtank may not be so bad.

He can cast, but the tank itself is immune to 99% of spells

Also I think you can throw direct damage spells at the steamtank even if he's in close combat. I could be wrong, not entirely down with all the different spell categories yet.

He is immune to 99% of spells

I think giants are pretty gimped in 8th ed, honestly. High T, no save, will be hit by more attacks than ever.



I definitely agree. Asking any army to do 4 -5 wounds to a steamtank is reasonable but asking them to do 10 is often absurd and asking them to do 20 (to 2 steamtanks) can quickly become ridiculous.

GW should make the steamtank 5W and adjust the steam point generation to compensate.

I don't really know what they should do with it, 0-1 for a start or make sure that every army around has something that can kill it.

Responeses in bold.

The Unknown
12-07-2010, 05:46
you always have a 6 to wound left no mather how high the thougnes is
poison attacks from blowpipes or just a whole lot of attacks is a good way there is always that change of roling a 1 for armour saves
and after making 2-3 wounds it is not that scarry any more

also you dit not get half victory points for the stank in 7th ed. for being a warmachine

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 05:54
so people keep saying you should throw 200-300 normal weak attacks at it... yea but I would....if it was not impossible.

How? I don't have access to any 4-5 attack models.

The Unknown
12-07-2010, 06:05
every body in 8th ed has alot of attacks figting in two ranks, 3 with spears, 4 ranks with the horde rule and you can always fight back

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 06:10
The steam tank has a somewhat small frontage, you won't get many into btb. 6s to wound and 2+ save means 36 attacks to get 1 wound.

with 4 in btb its 8 attacks normally from 2 ranks, 12 with spears.

Davemaddocks
12-07-2010, 10:04
Can the tank be hexed?

if so knock d3 off its toughness and hit it with cannons.

On a different note what happens when it comes into contact with something like the changeling?

Killswitch<>
12-07-2010, 10:11
Mo magic affects it unless it has a str value!

Shazzam6
12-07-2010, 12:02
[QUOTE=alfika;4809174]
Virtue of Heroism (Heroic Killing Blow)
QUOTE]

Only has KB on non-magic weapon attacks, so I am sorry, but no 6+ attacks to try and KB.

Memnos
12-07-2010, 12:16
How would Lizardmen stop steam-tanks? Tricky. You'd have to have an army with good augmentive magic, like the Lizardmen, to stop a steam-tank.

Hey! Lizardmen are an army like Lizardmen(Queue Homer Simpson voice).

Lore of Shadow would mean 12 Lizardmen with spears would attack at strength 7, hitting on 3s and wounding on 6s and -4 to armour save.

Slann with Lore of Beasts could cast +3 strength, +3 attacks on himself and then cast the final lore to get:

4d6+3 strength 10 attacks.

Average number of attacks: 17 strength 10 attacks. The augmentative magic would last until the caster's next magic phase, meaning 34 strength 10 attacks before you revert to strength 7 and 14 attacks on average.

34 S 10 attacks=1 dead steam tank.

If you're that worried, just take Lore of Beasts. ;)

SeaSwift
12-07-2010, 12:27
Memnos, STank is hit automatically in CC.

And if you're going to a pick-up game/tourney, Lores are chosen when writing army list, so you can't just change Lores to take it down.

Memnos
12-07-2010, 12:33
Memnos, STank is hit automatically in CC.

And if you're going to a pick-up game/tourney, Lores are chosen when writing army list, so you can't just change Lores to take it down.

STank is hit automatically? It'll be useless in one round, then, and dead by the time your turn rolls around again.

And Lore of Beasts is one of the greatest all around lores there is. Have your Slann take it, anyway. The base spell makes your Saurus S5 T5. That's fantastic.

scarvet
12-07-2010, 13:32
There is no point in arguing if Bretis have answer to whatever suppose to be imbalance: Bretis rule the warhammer world until recently which DE comes around....

As other have said, as long as Stank holds 300pts with T10 W10 Sv1+ Unbreak, which is just retarded for a game with victory points.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 13:43
I am not sure you can buff yourself for +3S +3A and then turn into a dragon, since the buff is on the slann, who leaves the field, a new model enters the field with stats as give. The whole profile is changed.

But yea beasts seems ok, the dragons aren't great but with their number of attacks the mountain chimera might be able to put a few wounds on.

The thing is that it can of course be dispelled, and it requires your model to be in combat with the tank before you cast. (it will be dispelled in the enemies magic phase)
A slann does not want to be in btb with the tank so it is risky.

A buffed scar vet on the other hand seems decent. Scarvet with GW, potion of strength is S10 for 1 turn, or a GW scar vet with the augment to give +3 attacks and strengths is also S10.

Add the toughness buff to bring it to T8 and your talking!

Do remember though that empire is one of the races that can get a lot of dispel dice.

Arch lectors ad 2DD and warrior priests add 1.

I might just give beasts a run though.

TheSaxon
12-07-2010, 14:47
I am not sure you can buff yourself for +3S +3A and then turn into a dragon, since the buff is on the slann, who leaves the field, a new model enters the field with stats as give. The whole profile is changed.


This is not my interpretation. The mage doesn't leave, but transforms. It can't cast any other spells while transformed, but the RiP spell still sticks around imo. That being said, I think the mage trades its stats for the stats of whatever it's turning into, so I wouldn't think this strategy would be legal.

So it amounts to the same thing ultimately, but i think you could buff another unit then transform and the buff would remain.

Skyros
12-07-2010, 15:59
is anyone else holding out for the fact the T10 ST in the FAQ is in error??

Bow fire, BTs, melee hordes etc arent adding up to stopping this newly discovered "Megatron".

At T10, the ST is the singular best unit in all of WFB, bar none.

For answers to the T10 ST, there arent many:
~Stone throwers are wounding on 5+ (trebs and hellcannons on 4+)
~Cannons on 4+
~Skaven poison wind wounding on 4+
~Lucky banshee wail
~Virtue of Heroism
~Awesome Str10 Thirster on 4+

this would leave DE, WE, HE, Beastmen and LM with literally no answer to Megatron. This cant be right...

Did you miss the part where the steamtank isn't the only T10 unit?

If the cauldron of blood, anvil of doom, and casket of souls can be T10, certainly a tank can be T10 as well. And those other items can have a 4+ ward save, making cannons and stone throwers even less effective against them than the tank!

Gen.RifulasDykes
12-07-2010, 16:19
Did you miss the part where the steamtank isn't the only T10 unit?

If the cauldron of blood, anvil of doom, and casket of souls can be T10, certainly a tank can be T10 as well. And those other items can have a 4+ ward save, making cannons and stone throwers even less effective against them than the tank!

At least the Anvil, Cauldron and Casket have their Toughness reduced to that of the majority crew when engaged in CC no? While I imagine anvil and such would be hidden behind enemy lines and the Rune Priest might be quite a toughy, leaves a potentially better option to remove them open no?

Kugruk
12-07-2010, 16:38
I'm sorry dude, but this statement made me laugh my ass off.

As a WoC player I have no idea what to use to kill this thing. WTF were they thinking?

Apparently only $60 models can kill other $60 models

N810
12-07-2010, 16:41
How would Lizardmen stop steam-tanks? Tricky. You'd have to have an army with good augmentive magic, like the Lizardmen, to stop a steam-tank.

Hey! Lizardmen are an army like Lizardmen(Queue Homer Simpson voice).

Lore of Shadow would mean 12 Lizardmen with spears would attack at strength 7, hitting on 3s and wounding on 6s and -4 to armour save.

Slann with Lore of Beasts could cast +3 strength, +3 attacks on himself and then cast the final lore to get:

4d6+3 strength 10 attacks.

Average number of attacks: 17 strength 10 attacks. The augmentative magic would last until the caster's next magic phase, meaning 34 strength 10 attacks before you revert to strength 7 and 14 attacks on average.

34 S 10 attacks=1 dead steam tank.

If you're that worried, just take Lore of Beasts. ;)

Ps Warmachines are NOT immune to poison anymore. ;)

Empire - Ulric
12-07-2010, 18:20
PS The Steam Tank is no longer classified as a war machine

It's immune to poison in Close Combat because you auto hit it. No rolling to hit = no chance to roll a 6.

It is not immune to ranged poison attacks though.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 18:24
True, but it has a 1+ save which means it really doesn't care.

The mountain chimera does a whole lot less if you cannot buff the dragon before the dragon shows up, which I imagine may be the cast.

If it works then the tactic will work, it just requires you to have beasts, and for the enemy not to dispell the +3S augment, if they do your dragon wounds on 6s. (might still be worth doing seeing how much less tanks do after they take 2-3 wounds)

Ultimate Life Form
15-07-2010, 15:29
It seems Lore of Metal after all; according to the latest German FAQ the Tank's immunity to magic is deleted.

ColShaw
15-07-2010, 15:46
My Night Gobbos like the idea of Mork Wants Ya; d6 S10 hits a pop. Each casting should cause ~2 wounds to it. Get 2 off, and its usefulness becomes a lot lower.

As far as my Brets are concerned, it's worse. They'll just have to hope for good Trebuchet shots... and get a Paladin with Virtue of Heroism (heh).

Skyros
15-07-2010, 16:01
It seems Lore of Metal after all; according to the latest German FAQ the Tank's immunity to magic is deleted.

Why use metal magic when you could just use purple sun and be guaranteed to kill the steamtank in one pop? :D (It auto fails I tests)

DTimbro
15-07-2010, 16:12
Why use metal magic when you could just use purple sun and be guaranteed to kill the steamtank in one pop? :D (It auto fails I tests)

Because the Steam Tank (as mentioned multiple times in this thread :shifty:) is immune to magic that does not include a strength component. Purple Sun does not include a strength component.