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hammerofulric
09-07-2010, 13:17
Hi all

With WFB8 changing the hand weapon + shield bonus from an extra +1 armour save to a 6+ ward save, were does the balance lie? WFB8 also forces you to use the non-hand weapon, such as a spear, if you have one.

For example, I'm building Clanrats and Skavenslaves. Both units come with hand weapons, but have the option for spears and/or shields.

So my choices, for both units:

Hand weapon
Hand weapon and shield
Spear
Spear and shield

I'm leaning towards hand weapon and shield at the moment, but I'm open to
persuasion by a well constructed argument.

Poi
Undecided Muppet

chilledenuff
09-07-2010, 13:24
For slaves I'd suggest hand weapon and shield, it does cost an extra 1 point per model but gives them a ward save in combat.
Clanrats, I'd give a spear and shield, the shield as anti shooting but for big units of clanrats you want that spear for supporting attacks

BattleofLund
09-07-2010, 14:47
My latest goblin unit is going into battle wearing the filthy rags and wielding the rusty cutlery they had when I enslaved them*. They will be 20, and assigned to 'kill us instead of something actually valuable' duty. Run screaming at a missile unit, basically.

*ie, base cost 3pt for a goblin in light armour, no equipment upgrades, banner, musician.

shortlegs
09-07-2010, 15:05
For skaven specifically, it should be:

- slaves - keep them naked, their strength is not in combat ability or their durability, spending points to try for either is a bad idea. Just go with more bodies. A paltry 100points gives you a 50-strong slave unit that any opponent will take some time to chew through. Steadfast at Ld10 for 2 point models is just ridiculous, exploit it.

- clanrats - if you're bringing them, stick to HW and shield. They don't fight well enough for the extra attacks from spears to be worth the increase in losses from losing the parry save, as well as the higher cost. Although I'll rather drop clanrats totally and bring slaves if I need roadblocks, or stormvermin if I need a combat unit (the higher WS and str really matters a lot).

My $0.02...

spetswalshe
09-07-2010, 15:49
So, a Bret Men at Arms unit now has to use its halberd? Makes you wonder why they bother bringing hand weapons along at all, really. Or why in the name of jeebus it was decided Bretonnian pole arms should be halberds and not spears...

GodlessM
09-07-2010, 16:25
So, a Bret Men at Arms unit now has to use its halberd? Makes you wonder why they bother bringing hand weapons along at all, really. Or why in the name of jeebus it was decided Bretonnian pole arms should be halberds and not spears...

Because they have the option of taking spears.

hammerofulric
12-07-2010, 08:56
I've decided that hw shield for both units is the way to go. The much increased number of attacks makes that ward save worth it, imho, and as I'm planning on 40+ for both units, I'm already getting 10 extra attacks from horde.

Malakai
12-07-2010, 09:05
That's weird. Why a ward save? Ward saves are invulnerable saves right? It makes no sense really. I would have preferred the +1.

ChaosTicket
12-07-2010, 09:24
Well slaves now suck more. The 5+ save with shield and hand weapons made them decently resilient.

Well use spears for slave and clanrats, why? because having double the damage at the cost of having a 6+ save if your enemy has str6 wont save you from much, is somewhat easy to judge. But if you enemy had large numbers of Str4 high armor fighters a 6+ save would be better to help save you from those cavalry, as spears arent much use against them.

hammerofulric
12-07-2010, 09:39
Slaves only suck more against S3 attacks. Against anything else they will always get that ward save in CC. And with the added benefits from horde and steadfast, those slaves became awesome, imho, not worse.
Spears don't double the damage any longer. I'm already fighting in three ranks because of horde, so a 1/3 increase in attacks or a ward save, for a unit which is meant to annoy the enemy seems a fair trade off.

Wakerofgods
12-07-2010, 10:30
I think spears could be a good option...but this might be partially because I have an irrational haterid of 6+ saves so keep just discounting the 6+ parry ward.

But I think everyone is planning on bringing more rubbish infantry so those clanrats might not be SO bad...plus no stepup anymore so you actually get all of those 15 attacks from your spearmen (more if wider).

xxRavenxx
12-07-2010, 10:31
That's weird. Why a ward save? Ward saves are invulnerable saves right? It makes no sense really. I would have preferred the +1.

The fact that you prefer it hints at why it was done :)

It allowed heavy armoured units to make their armor even heavyer. (2+ save chaos wariors for example), while had little use for light armored units when being bashed by the large assortment of Str 5 units.

As for why a ward save. Think of what a parry bonus is. Does it increase your armor, or does it allow you to avoid the attack? Which type of saving throw reflects that best?

You now have a 6+ "avoid the incoming blow" save, alongside your armor. It actually makes more sense this way round. :)

chilledenuff
12-07-2010, 10:48
You now have a 6+ "avoid the incoming blow" save, alongside your armor. It actually makes more sense this way round. :)

quoted for truth. Although in reply to the OP, I'd suggest just hand weapon for both :D only because my gobbos will kill more that way!

Seriously though, I'd go spears on clanrats and hand weapon on slaves (with shields)

Lord of the End Times
12-07-2010, 10:56
Because they have the option of taking spears.

I'm still not sure whether spears or halberds is the best option for my men at arms. I never used to use the halberds, just the HW+S option for the extra armour save but now we must use the special weapon they have and we have to take either spears or halberds. With their pathetic WS2 I am leaning towards spears for the use of the shield in combat to slighly reduce losses.
What would others recommend?

Korraz
12-07-2010, 11:41
Slaves naked. You never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever...well, you get it. Anyway, you never buy anything for a unit that's only job is to die.
If I'm feeling very silly I give them slings. But no, never ever give them upgrades.

Clanrats go with shields and nothing else. Those 5 attacks just aren't worth it. If the spears would be free you could maybe think about it. But no.

CrystalSphere
12-07-2010, 11:53
Only go with spears if you think you have chances to kill something with them (you have good stats, or a magic spell boosting your strength, or reroll like high elves with asf).

But if you donīt think the spears will make much of a difference (and if you ask me most of the time they donīt), then pick the cheaper option, that is, hand weapons.

Kneedles
12-07-2010, 19:08
My friend runs his clanrats and slaves 5 wide and 6 or more deep. With skaven it is more for the steadfast and static combat rez with these two units than actually expecting them to kill something. sword and board on clanrats gives you an extra meatbag to take a hit for every 6 wounds. Out of a unit of 30 that could save you a rank.

TheDireAvenger
12-07-2010, 19:54
Hey,

What about for lizardmen Saurus guys? HW or Spears? I really need HELP!

Kneedles
13-07-2010, 16:26
I am going to stick with spears on saurus, and just take them in a 6 wide 30 block. it is combining my former 2 6x3 groups, but put a saurus in there, mabye with the 35 pt stubborn item, and just slog it out. more of my saurus die to shooting then in cc, and it might soak up fire aimed at TG or stegs.

NitrosOkay
13-07-2010, 17:30
That's weird. Why a ward save? Ward saves are invulnerable saves right? It makes no sense really. I would have preferred the +1.

You take the armour save THEN you take the parry save if you fail. It's not worse it's better.

Korraz
13-07-2010, 17:39
Actually, no. It's slightly worse, like 0,38% or something like that.

Jetty Smurf
13-07-2010, 17:42
I am not sure I see how it's worse.

You either get a 1/6 increase to your armour save e.g. from +4 to +3 (which can be altogether removed with high strength attacks) or a 1/6 chance at a ward save.

What's the maths behind the +1 to AS being better than the ward save?

Ancre
13-07-2010, 18:10
Hey,

What about for lizardmen Saurus guys? HW or Spears? I really need HELP!

Parry is great for gobbos, skaven, empire and other low-cost troops, just because, if you fail, you don't lose many points, and since they are better at bringing static CR than kills it makes more sense to gives them something that helps their protection (and thus keep them alive a bit longer, even if not by much) rather than something that makes them "poor" to "a bit better but still poor" at killing. It's better to maximise your strengths here imo, as it's the easier way to build CR in a fight.

Saurus on the other hand cost a lot more points, so their static CR cost (much) more than low-cost troops for the same effect ; they are vaguely more survivable with T4 but that still doesn't help them ; however they are good at killing, so it makes sense to give them spears because it help them kill stuff and that's the easiest way to build CR for them.

However, in order to get the full benefit of the upgrade, you need to make sure you have three ranks that can fight, and in the case of saurus, they will go second because of their I, so they have to endure one round of attacks before striking back. If you only have three rank, each loss makes the spears upgrade not a good investment, as they will benefit less and less of the spears with each and every loss. Reducing the frontage of the unit brings the same problem : less models on the third rank means less models using the spear upgrade. So it means that, for spears to be an interesting upgrade on sauruses, ideally you want at least four ranks, and you prefer the unit wide. Which makes for a costly unit ! If you're tight on points, or if you run smaller units of saurus, then hand weapon + shield is more interesting, just because it make a costly unit a big cheaper, and that they wouldn't benefit of the spears upgrade as much as they could anyways.

So my conclusion is : big saurus units (at least 24, on 6x4) = spears. Small units (20 is small) = hand weapon and shield.

Mandragola
13-07-2010, 21:13
While this is an interesting discussion, it surprises me that nobody is talking about charging. Spears don't work the turn you charge, and that's obviously a big deal.

With my empire troops, it's not an easy decision between spears and halberds. I'm probably going to use a horde of 40-50 guys fighting in 3-4 ranks. If I charge, then halberds are obviously superior, but I'm not sure I'll want to charge much. Maybe I'd be better off having another turn of shooting and letting the other guy charge me, in which case spears start to edge it.

For anything less than a horde, spears seem good. The difference between 2 ranks fighting or 3, is proportionally greater than the difference between 3 ranks fighting and 4.

LuitpoldFrohlich
13-07-2010, 22:46
So my conclusion is : big saurus units (at least 24, on 6x4) = spears. Small units (20 is small) = hand weapon and shield.

Like he said.

If you're running your saurus at least 4 ranks deep, spears are a good option. Anything less, and HW are better.

If you plan on running them as a horde, you need to go one more rank again to get the full benefit. In other words, horde saurus at 30 or even 40 don't warrant spears; the same numbers run ranked deep do.