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View Full Version : Chaos Hounds...Useless now?



avatarofportent
09-07-2010, 23:28
I played a game with 20 chaos hounds and I found that they seemed to get in the way against me when I was facing off against my Lizardman opponent.

My thinking is that if I have initiative 5 in most of my army then why does it matter if I get the charge. Why not just stand there take the charge and hit him first anyways. Especially if hes got spears. I learned the hard way is better to let his Saurus Warriors with spears charge then for me to charge. So why choke the battle field with hounds.

avatarofportent
09-07-2010, 23:33
They also got nerfed in the fact that :

They don't effeciently march block anymore

They don't negate ranks unless in units of 10

They can't really screw up charges terribley cause the changes to charge redirection.

Jericho
09-07-2010, 23:48
Yep, I never found them to be as useful as everyone else seemed to (probably because we play relatively soft armies in our group, we actually want to ENJOY playing games :p) and now they look to be pretty unimpressive. Still semi useful to screen from missile fire (shooting past them does confer a cover penalty) but nowhere near as effective as before.

...

At least they're still cheap!

JCF
09-07-2010, 23:53
How do they work in relation to minimum % of core now? Same question for stuff like Furies in the DoC book, because the old wording makes them redundant given points are at a premium under % rules.

Angelust
09-07-2010, 23:54
Hounds used to always make their points back for me, even if it simply saved a unit of Knights from being obliterated by a spell. They often did surprisingly nice things, like chewing up warmachine crews.

I think as a fast moving option in the army, you can still run them up the flanks to put pressure on warmachines and backline missile units. They'll get shot down surely, but sometimes the enemy army doesn't have MSU shooting ability, so will need to overcommit shooting to kill them off. Having an enemy waste a turn of shooting from 20 missile troops might be a good use for 30 points worth of hounds.

But then again, maybe they'll just be stuck with 7th edition lists.

Odin
09-07-2010, 23:58
I used a unit of 5 in my army today for my first two 8th edition games. To be honest, I mostly use them to delay deployment, as it gives me a better chance of getting the right match-ups in close combat. Other than that I used them to get in the way of some TK chariots for a turn, and to distract some Dwarf quarrellers. In both cases, almost certainly "earned their points back" indirectly. Agree though, they're not as good as they were.

Chaos257
10-07-2010, 00:20
Chaos are generally useless now. They will not have much use in 8th ed. Most armies can easily emulate our combat abilities for a lower cost and can provide superior support fire. Lore of metal will also be an 'I win' button for the oppossition.

I think chaos will be the new Ogre kingdoms

Slow, slightly more effective in combat, very expensive and lacking in support, range attacks and speed.

The_Bureaucrat
10-07-2010, 00:37
Chaos are generally useless now. They will not have much use in 8th ed. Most armies can easily emulate our combat abilities for a lower cost and can provide superior support fire.

Name one that can beat 50 marauders with great weapons and frenzy for the points.

Back on topic, I am a little disappointed with this edition so far. While they have given use to infantry (which is great no doubt) it seems they have taken away most of the use for fast cav and screening units. Still decent warmachine hunters I guess.

Chaos257
10-07-2010, 00:46
Name one that can beat 50 marauders with great weapons and frenzy for the points.

Back on topic, I am a little disappointed with this edition so far. While they have given use to infantry (which is great no doubt) it seems they have taken away most of the use for fast cav and screening units. Still decent warmachine hunters I guess.

A unit of 20 elves with reapter bows will make short work of those marauders.

10 die a turn... or 7 from a normal unit of elves. Who will strike first in combat and re-roll misses. So that is another 20 attacks back 15 will hit another 7.5 marauders will die... never mind the stand and shoot. I'd wouldn't be amazed if none got to attack at all :)

Witchblade
10-07-2010, 00:48
They also provide cheap drops during deployment. I think I'll still use 2 units of 5 in all my armies.

txamil
10-07-2010, 00:50
And they don't count towards core. So of course I take the spawn or even razorgor for the same points.

Roark
10-07-2010, 01:00
Chaos are generally useless now. They will not have much use in 8th ed. Most armies can easily emulate our combat abilities for a lower cost and can provide superior support fire. Lore of metal will also be an 'I win' button for the oppossition.

I think chaos will be the new Ogre kingdoms

Slow, slightly more effective in combat, very expensive and lacking in support, range attacks and speed.

Are you serious, man?

How did Chaos get any slower than it was in 7th edition?

We have one of the best horde units in the game. We have the best heavy infantry in the game. We have a S5 stonethrower (with, what, 8 wounds now?) , when everyone else has S3.

Frenzy just got improved, and so most of the reasons for not taking filthy destructive Khorne units have been mitigated.

Warriors of Chaos have received some amazing boosts, and you're seriously saying that they will be the "new ogres"? I'm stunned, man.

Angelust
10-07-2010, 01:49
A unit of 20 elves with reapter bows will make short work of those marauders.

10 die a turn... or 7 from a normal unit of elves. Who will strike first in combat and re-roll misses. So that is another 20 attacks back 15 will hit another 7.5 marauders will die... never mind the stand and shoot. I'd wouldn't be amazed if none got to attack at all :)

So 7 die from shooting, 8 die from close combat. Let's say 5 die from stand and shoot if they have the range. 20 dead in total.

Marauders have 6 guys in b2b, which means 24 attacks back, 12 hits, 10 wounds, let's say 8 dead.

Next round, 12 attacks from elves, 9 hits, let's say 5 dead marauders.

Marauders get 18 attacks back, hit 9, wound 7, kill 5-6.

If the elves haven't broken at this point, the 4 or 5 guys left are not in good shape when squaring off with 20+ marauders.

I know the elves may get more shots in, have spell back up, etc, but they're not an easy win against a 50-man frenzied GW horde.

Also, I personally think that gunline units are never quite as useful as they appear on paper. Terrain, screening, positioning, threat saturation, etc, typically cause them to forgo full shooting effectiveness most rounds.

Magister_Ordo_Lyrae
10-07-2010, 06:00
Hounds are also useful for making those obnoxious night goblin fanatics pop out early so they don't eat half your warrior unit or most of your knights.;)

Souppilgrim
10-07-2010, 06:38
Chaos are generally useless now. They will not have much use in 8th ed. Most armies can easily emulate our combat abilities for a lower cost and can provide superior support fire. Lore of metal will also be an 'I win' button for the oppossition.

I think chaos will be the new Ogre kingdoms

Slow, slightly more effective in combat, very expensive and lacking in support, range attacks and speed.
:wtf:
You have some of the best cc in the game, and now you can get into fights quicker, with less time for the enemy to mow you down with fire...

Maoriboy007
10-07-2010, 06:46
at least they're better than dire wolves.

Valtiel
10-07-2010, 07:36
Chaos are generally useless now. They will not have much use in 8th ed. Most armies can easily emulate our combat abilities for a lower cost and can provide superior support fire. Lore of metal will also be an 'I win' button for the oppossition.

I think chaos will be the new Ogre kingdoms

Slow, slightly more effective in combat, very expensive and lacking in support, range attacks and speed.

This is certainly not true. Don't know why you say this. I have to say, High Elves and Empire seem to have gotten a better boost now that the FAQs have gotten released.

As for Warhounds, I used them in all games. They have worked okay. I used them as shields for other units, annoying things to throw at the enemy, I even attacked a Mortar with a single Warhound and it held it up for 2 turns killing 2 crew.

Not as useful as before but they're still cheap and can give cover for your troops.

Oberon
10-07-2010, 07:45
Move them in front of your troops to gain cover, then either charge something to get out of way, or flee as a charge reaction to cause failed charge and at the same time get out of way. 30p deployment drop in an army where normal core unit costs between 2 and 400 points, is always useful.

Stonewyrm
10-07-2010, 08:47
Yeah I just bought 10 more Hounds, for a total of 40. I'm not sure that they provide cover but I want them mainly for redirecters and deployments.

By redirecters I meant forcing the enemy to attack them to even move. I don't plan to flee and thus im able to force the charger to overrun in the direction I want. If they don't overrun or reform I still can influence where they stand and which angles they can choose.

On the other side with units getting bigger deployments will be reduced. If the rumours pan out the 3 units of MarHorse for core will now be 1+ units of 50 Marauders. So for every block of (granted awsome) Marauders you take you are losing 1-2 deployments. I like having more deployments. A bunch of cheap hounds can really screw over an opponent, especialy when I can drop 2-3 Chaos Knights and/or a Shaggoth after he's done.

Yeah I know Shaggoth sucks, cannon magnet, too expensive, bla bla bla. I love the model and I will use him! Anyone that doesn't like it can kiss his skaly green a**.

Stonewyrm

Phrase of the month: "Grind, baby, Grind"

Odin
10-07-2010, 10:57
Chaos are generally useless now. They will not have much use in 8th ed. Most armies can easily emulate our combat abilities for a lower cost and can provide superior support fire. Lore of metal will also be an 'I win' button for the oppossition.

I think chaos will be the new Ogre kingdoms

Slow, slightly more effective in combat, very expensive and lacking in support, range attacks and speed.

Ha ha ha ha...

You are joking, right?

shortlegs
10-07-2010, 11:05
Chaos are generally useless now. They will not have much use in 8th ed. Most armies can easily emulate our combat abilities for a lower cost and can provide superior support fire. Lore of metal will also be an 'I win' button for the oppossition.

I think chaos will be the new Ogre kingdoms

Slow, slightly more effective in combat, very expensive and lacking in support, range attacks and speed.
I'm usually all for a good debate, but that post just smacks of nothing but unsubstantiated whinging.

I would suggest proving your point with evidence and facts to make yourself even remotely believable.

Kerill
10-07-2010, 13:51
Chaos are generally useless now. They will not have much use in 8th ed. Most armies can easily emulate our combat abilities for a lower cost and can provide superior support fire. Lore of metal will also be an 'I win' button for the oppossition.

I think chaos will be the new Ogre kingdoms

Slow, slightly more effective in combat, very expensive and lacking in support, range attacks and speed.

I disagree on every point. I also completely disagree that hounds are useless.

Zaustus
10-07-2010, 15:14
I'm running an infantry-heavy Tzeentch army now, and I didn't take any Warhounds. In 7th, that would have been unthinkable, but now I'm not as enamored of them. Not being able to completely screen shooting is part of the problem, as is the new panic rule: Anything fleeing through my units causes a panic check, and since I'm Tzeentch I don't have much in the way of protection from that, save my re-roll.

Another thing I'm finding irritating with the dogs is, strangely, their cost. It used to be that I'd end up with 30 extra points and happily plop down a unit of dogs. Now, I'm tempted to spend those points on bulking up my Marauder horde. The fact that Marauders are now actually good detracts somewhat from the luster of Warhounds.

avatarofportent
10-07-2010, 15:53
Oh yeah thats another thing, when they get destroyed by close combat and/or shooting I think they can cause panic tests in my large warrior blocks. WTF is that . I remember having to take a bunch of panic tests when I lost those units in combat. Luckily the BSB saved my skin. But still.

TMATK
10-07-2010, 16:07
Hounds are also useful for making those obnoxious night goblin fanatics pop out early so they don't eat half your warrior unit or most of your knights.;)

As of right now, a dying fanatic can cause panic in other goblin units. You should see less of them, I know I will rarely use them now.

SkawtheFalconer
10-07-2010, 18:07
Theyre still a fairly cheap, fairly quick unit that can rank - they're going to useful for breaking ranks.

Angelust
10-07-2010, 18:12
Yeah, panic is a good point. I think they're no longer as useful for screening purposes, but are perhaps still useful as deployment pieces and as flank harassers.

Irbian
10-07-2010, 20:24
And warmachines hunters?

What about poison? it is good?

Angelust
10-07-2010, 20:49
Poison is really a waste of points in my opinion. Hounds need to be cheap. We have a lot of options for close combat killing, what we need is cheap mobility and quick MSUs.

Witchblade
11-07-2010, 23:45
Another often overlooked benefit of warhounds is that they're the only unit that can give LoS! to steeds of slaanesh and disc riders.

edit: apparently this is false. My bad for only looking at the summary.

decker_cky
12-07-2010, 01:34
Riding a warbeast makes you cavalry...