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TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 06:07
Hey everyone,

After further examining rules in the 8th edition rule books I've noticed a problem. The rules don't seem to be specific about whether or not pivoting a war machine in the movement phase actually counts as moving the machine. As Iím sure you all recognize, this is a huge problem, as war machines that move in the movement phase (or any phase for that matter) cannot shoot.

War machines use the rules for lone models in the movement phase. In those rules it is specifically stated that pivoting counts as moving for the purposes of shooting.

Now, the rule book does say that when firing at a target in the shooting phase you can freely pivot the model to face its target. Unfortunately, you must have line of sight on the target to do this. This 90 degree line of sight is taken directly from the barrel of the gun, so cannons may have a difficult time targeting units that are fairly close, yet not directly in front of it.
To further complicate things. In the cannon section, it mentions that war machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase (although it does not specify if this counts as moving or not).

What I glean from all this is that it was the authors intention that war machines would be able to pivot freely in the movement phase and not count as moving. However, in the strictest interpretation of the rules, this does not come across.

Have I missed something? Am I interpreting this all wrong? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

(Also sorry for the long post)

jet_palero
10-07-2010, 06:42
No pivoting has never counted as moving. That would be terrible.

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 07:30
I know it hasn't in the past. But read the 8th edition section on warmachines. It clearly says that warmachines move like lone models and when lone models pivot they count as moving for the purpose of shooting.

I don't think thats what the developers intended but that's what the rules state.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2010, 07:33
You shouldn't need to pivot in the movement phase if the rules are similar to those in 7th. The firing procedure for war machines should include an allowance to pivot, if it doesn't then, yes, that is a mistake.

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 07:35
They arn't. The rules say that you need line of sight to your target. This is taken from the barrel of the gun (or crossbar). Once you have line of sight you then pivot the war machine to face the target.

So yes, hopefully it is a mistake.

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2010, 07:39
No pivoting and shooting as they are move-or-fire.
It's been removed from 7th to 8th ed now.

Sucks huh? You'll have to be more careful with your war machines from now on.

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 07:51
You can pivot and shoot with single models but this counts as moving for the purposes of shooting (pg 27).

War machines have the Move or Fire special rule unless otherwise stated (pg 109).

I'm swear I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to work through this one! I absolutly believe that war machines get a pivot. I'm just trying to figure out how to convince my RAW best friend that this is indeed the case.

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 08:04
Sucks huh? You'll have to be more careful with your war machines from now on.

Seems like this might be the case. We shall see though, the paragraph under "Choose Target" in the Cannon's section (pg. 112) makes me suspect that it may simply be an editing mistake.

Kalandros
10-07-2010, 08:06
If its not written, then there's not pivot and thus you can finally outmaneuver a war machine

I don't see whats wrong with that, there's no way an artillery crew would have time to reposition a heavy war machine and aim it to fire while there are beasts and cavalry running around to catch them out of their line of fire.

So if there's no mention of a pivot not counting as movement for war machines, then you simply cannot pivot and fire in the same turn

Thanatos_elNyx
10-07-2010, 08:36
P109: Shooting with Warmachines
Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. Muzzle or crossbar) - before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving).

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 09:20
P109: Shooting with Warmachines
Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. Muzzle or crossbar) - before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving).


See, the way I interpret that section is that you must first have line of sight, then you can pivot. Not the other way around.

So for example, in 7th edition, if a unit was in your war machineís flank, you could pivot and shoot at it. In 8th it seems like that same unit would not be in your war machineís line of sight and thus you would be unable to pivot towards it.

I will admit that my interpretation (like all interpretations) may be flawed.

Oberon
10-07-2010, 09:34
It is flawed.

If you had LOS already you wouldn't have to pivot. So of course pivoting is done before having LOS, to get it.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2010, 10:07
P109: Shooting with Warmachines
Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. Muzzle or crossbar) - before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving).

If that's the way it is written then it seems to be the same as 7th. They are just trying to standardise where the line of sight and range are drawn from. I wouldn't prevent a war machine firing after pivoting from reading that rule, but I can see how it can be interpreted differently.

Gargantuan
10-07-2010, 13:48
P109: Shooting with Warmachines
Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. Muzzle or crossbar) - before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving).

This is correct.

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 20:17
Alright then, looks like I just overanalyzed that one!

Thanks a bunch guys.