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View Full Version : Is there a reason for T10 steamtank



PARTYCHICORITA
10-07-2010, 14:29
As a change it seems very random and i was wondering if anyone on the GW development team has said anything about it. Could it be an errata on the errata? I'm not sure if i am missing something in the new rules that would force and increase in T for the tank.

Vandelan
10-07-2010, 14:32
It could be because of the change to the wound chart?

I honestly can't think of a decent reason.

fluffstalker
10-07-2010, 14:33
For the lulz?

Vandelan
10-07-2010, 14:34
For the lulz?

I stand corrected.

Agoz
10-07-2010, 14:35
Well I mean.. It is a tank after all, almost WWI tech right there, its made of metal. But as for gameplay, no, no it wasn't neccessary, steam tanks were already good as they were, they didn't need a buff.

Don Zeko
10-07-2010, 14:36
I couldn't figure it out either. Given that the Tank is now completely immune to the Lore of Metal, it seems entirely too difficult to kill for any faction that doesn't get cannons.

Ultimate Life Form
10-07-2010, 14:38
The reason is there's an overpriced new model and GW want to sell it.

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2010, 14:38
Seems to be they got confused with it already having rules.
The 6th ed Stank had no toughness, note that anything with no toughness now has toughness 10.

Typical GW looking at the wrong edition of rules methinks.

Also the expensive model thing......that could possibly have had a slight influence as well, maybe.

yabbadabba
10-07-2010, 14:39
Change in the "to wound" chart by all accounts, plus compated to some, like the HPA and the Hydra its not as all round effective.

Edit - everything GW does is about selling more toys. You don't need too much encouragement to by 2 Steam Tanks as an empire player.

SideshowLucifer
10-07-2010, 14:42
It's a redirection trick, so we all complain about that rather then the super high elf speed hate supreme ;)

kris.sherriff
10-07-2010, 14:42
Why is it any harder to kill. Most things wounded it on a 6 and still do but now a 35 point goblin bolt thrower will not render it as good as usless. I am not saying that it isn't a buff but it is not all that now that bad as even strength 1 can hurt it now.

Lyynark
10-07-2010, 14:52
I play Empire, and I rarely used a steam tank in 7th due to the fact that a single bolt thrower (and there's a lot of those) or stone thrower could render it useless due to the stupid steam point generation rules.

Now I might actually use one.

Don Zeko
10-07-2010, 14:52
Why is it any harder to kill. Most things wounded it on a 6 and still do but now a 35 point goblin bolt thrower will not render it as good as usless. I am not saying that it isn't a buff but it is not all that now that bad as even strength 1 can hurt it now.

Huh? That bolt thrower used to wound it on a 4+, now it wounds on a 6+. In fact, for armies with no cannons or stone throwers, everything in the entire army book wounds it on a 6, and the tank is now almost completely immune to magic. This makes it far more difficult to kill than it was before, and it was plenty hard to kill already. The new Lore of Metal would have been a huge buff even if they hadn't changed it this way, and it was already one of the most powerful things in the Empire list.

EDIT: ah, my reading comprehension skills are weak this morning. My first sentence should change to "yes! You are correct, and I would add that Elves are getting seriously screwed by this whenever they have to fight the ST"

yabbadabba
10-07-2010, 14:55
Huh? That bolt thrower used to wound it on a 4+, now it wounds on a 6+. In fact, for armies with no cannons or stone throwers, everything in the entire army book wounds it on a 6, and the tank is now almost completely immune to magic. This makes it far more difficult to kill than it was before, and it was plenty hard to kill already. The new Lore of Metal would have been a huge buff even if they hadn't changed it this way, and it was already one of the most powerful things in the Empire list. Yes but you have to balance that vs now anything with a strength value can wound it. I've taken one out with an Empire General and the Sword of Might before (long game, not much action). At its previous toughness it would have required a points drop, something which as far as I can tell the FAQ's are not addressing.

Oberon
10-07-2010, 15:04
Before, it had T6 and was immune only to S2 and S1 damage. I'd say it gained more than it lost when the wound chart&it's stats changed.

Noserenda
10-07-2010, 15:07
It used to be T:10 back in the day btw, it was plenty killable even with the old wound charts afaik

yabbadabba
10-07-2010, 15:15
It used to be T:10 back in the day btw, it was plenty killable even with the old wound charts afaik Yeah but all these 6/7th Ed players wouldn't know that :angel:

Its still a great choice for the Empire army although cheaper rare choices do outperform it in other armies. Its one of the few real "shock and awe" units we have.

Miredorf
10-07-2010, 15:20
I would have gone for T7 if i was really lazy and for a slight rework of how steam points work if i wanted to do well the job for which they pay me.



Yeah but all these 6/7th Ed players wouldn't know that :angel:

Its still a great choice for the Empire army although cheaper rare choices do outperform it in other armies. Its one of the few real "shock and awe" units we have.

Thats not a valid comparison either. In those days every monstruous creature had terryfing stats and every hero/lord could get insane powerful items. Thats is why they revamped everything for 6th actually, so i dont know why you are using it as an excuse to prove everything is allright.

yabbadabba
10-07-2010, 15:27
Thats not a valid comparison either. In those days every monstruous creature had terryfing stats and every hero/lord could get insane powerful items. Thats is why they revamped everything for 6th actually, so i dont know why you are using it as an excuse to prove everything is allright. Because I am. Because I can. Because it is how you think about how your army will work. Because Empire are a wonderfully middle of the road army without too many OTT items or units.

Don't know why you want to be so sour about it :confused:

Valaraukar
10-07-2010, 15:34
I would guess it's because in combat now you will still get to strike back against it after it's impact hits, then be stubborn almost to a man against it and if you're lucky knock off a wound a combat phase making it much more likely to kill itself.

PARTYCHICORITA
10-07-2010, 15:42
I would guess it's because in combat now you will still get to strike back against it after it's impact hits, then be stubborn almost to a man against it and if you're lucky knock off a wound a combat phase making it much more likely to kill itself.

Makes sense but then T7 or 8 could have been understandable. Why go all the way up to 10?

And i wouldn't call empire a middle of the road army, not on 7th much less now on 8th.

Jind_Singh
10-07-2010, 19:46
I have NEVER understood the hate for the Empire Steam Tank - is it because it's the only decent unit in their book? Lets look at some other army books:

Lizardmen - I have never heard anyone cry over the Stegadons in our local area, they are bad asses, indeed the old ed even allowed a horde of them to be played
Skaven: Everyone loves the HPA, no one has banned it from the tournament scene
Dark Elves: Hydra - what the hell were they thinking, this is my most feared unit in the game
High Elves: Dragons as mount options to heros, and the dragons are pretty damn hard too

etc, etc

Pretty much every army has a tough bad ass to do the job. Empire has the most expensive unit of it's type in the game - bar dragons - but it was always silly that it's effectiveness could be taken out so quick by goblin spear chukkas at 35pts, and so on.

And for some reason so many tournament scenes ban the stank from inclusion but seem happy with the other units out there. And for a mediocre army like Empire it's not even that bad - what people didn't like was seeing 2 of them with a War Alter as now we have about 850 points of pure pain in the ass to kill - therefore points denial was always a big issue.
My defence for the poor steam tank comes as I play Orcs & Goblins, and sometimes Ogres, and I've always had healthy respect for the stank, but don't see why it gets such a bad rep. Now it's T10 - oh well, maybe now I'll actually have to worry about it in games - were as before it was just another piece of terrain by turn 2 as it had taken 3-4 wounds and couldn't function!

Yeah maybe T10 was perhaps too high - but don't forget the Tomb Kings Casket is also T10, as is the Cauldron of blood I believe, so it's not alone! So it looks like T10 is something we'll have to adjust to for 8th.

Rant over!

SYN Ace
10-07-2010, 20:16
T10 makes sense. When I previewed the new CC rules last week I thought no Empire player in their right mind would now run a steam tank.

The steam tank is really ineffective when it takes a few wounds and now anything can cause a wound to it -- even something with a S1 attack can still cause a wound. So now with multiple ranks of troops able to beat on it, the odds of hordes of troops inflicting a wound after auto hitting the steam tank have gone up -- even with an AS of 1+ the odds are it is going to miss one of its saves, just from the sheer number of dice being rolled.

I'm guessing GW decided to balance it out: it now has a greater chance of surviving a war machine hit to counteract all the whacks that it's going to be taking from multiple ranks of infantry and multiple ranks of missile troops firing at it now.

Back in the old days of 4th edition, T10 on the steam tank sucked because normal troops couldn't hurt it and if you didn't have a bad ass hero handy or your war machines were dead, you were hosed. Now regular troops can still hurt it.

Just my opinion.

Skywave
10-07-2010, 20:29
I have NEVER understood the hate for the Empire Steam Tank - is it because it's the only decent unit in their book? Lets look at some other army books:

Lizardmen - I have never heard anyone cry over the Stegadons in our local area, they are bad asses, indeed the old ed even allowed a horde of them to be played
Skaven: Everyone loves the HPA, no one has banned it from the tournament scene
Dark Elves: Hydra - what the hell were they thinking, this is my most feared unit in the game
High Elves: Dragons as mount options to heros, and the dragons are pretty damn hard too

etc, etc

Pretty much every army has a tough bad ass to do the job. Empire has the most expensive unit of it's type in the game - bar dragons - but it was always silly that it's effectiveness could be taken out so quick by goblin spear chukkas at 35pts, and so on.

And for some reason so many tournament scenes ban the stank from inclusion but seem happy with the other units out there. And for a mediocre army like Empire it's not even that bad - what people didn't like was seeing 2 of them with a War Alter as now we have about 850 points of pure pain in the ass to kill - therefore points denial was always a big issue.
My defence for the poor steam tank comes as I play Orcs & Goblins, and sometimes Ogres, and I've always had healthy respect for the stank, but don't see why it gets such a bad rep. Now it's T10 - oh well, maybe now I'll actually have to worry about it in games - were as before it was just another piece of terrain by turn 2 as it had taken 3-4 wounds and couldn't function!

Yeah maybe T10 was perhaps too high - but don't forget the Tomb Kings Casket is also T10, as is the Cauldron of blood I believe, so it's not alone! So it looks like T10 is something we'll have to adjust to for 8th.

Rant over!

Excellent post, my view exactly :) I'd like to see the reaction if all the big monsters you gave as exemple lost, say, 1 strenght for every wound suffered ;) The Tank basically have a 2-4 wound lifespan in game term, it loose it's effectiveness realy quick, I don't see the fuzz about the 300pts Tank over all other nasties.

paulb11
10-07-2010, 20:36
T10 makes sense. When I previewed the new CC rules last week I thought no Empire player in their right mind would now run a steam tank.

The steam tank is really ineffective when it takes a few wounds and now anything can cause a wound to it -- even something with a S1 attack can still cause a wound. So now with multiple ranks of troops able to beat on it, the odds of hordes of troops inflicting a wound after auto hitting the steam tank have gone up -- even with an AS of 1+ the odds are it is going to miss one of its saves, just from the sheer number of dice being rolled.

I'm guessing GW decided to balance it out: it now has a greater chance of surviving a war machine hit to counteract all the whacks that it's going to be taking from multiple ranks of infantry and multiple ranks of missile troops firing at it now.

Back in the old days of 4th edition, T10 on the steam tank sucked because normal troops couldn't hurt it and if you didn't have a bad ass hero handy or your war machines were dead, you were hosed. Now regular troops can still hurt it.

Just my opinion.

Do you auto hit, now it is a chariot don't you roll vs engineers WS?

SYN Ace
10-07-2010, 20:42
Do you auto hit, now it is a chariot don't you roll vs engineers WS?

have to check

Scalebug
10-07-2010, 20:52
It is still auto-hit in the close combat phase, the WS3 there was (probably) added for stuff like spells that act like close combat attacks, but isn't all out such, there is one Dark Magic and one Waagh spell at least, AFAIK.

As for T10... I'd say that it is what the designers have intended always; Have it really tough, but not invulnerable to attacks, the old S/T chart didn't allow that without making either it out of reach for standard attacks or too vulnerable to warmachines.

And what others have said; It drops in efficency really fast as it takes wounds.

xxRavenxx
10-07-2010, 20:54
I think the steamtank's buffing up is fair enough, but I think it opens a can of worms.

For example: I wish my chaos dragon had gone up to T10 to counteract its massive vunerability to propelled lumps of iron/rock, loss of multiple breath attacks, nerfs to flying, terror, inability to negate rank, dueling issues and switch to being a lord.

I'm sure nearly every other army (DE dont get to complain, their hydra is insanely good, and skaven's big toys seem to be mostly fine) has a complaint of some sort about one of their large creatures/wagons.

Why did empire get the fix, but noone else?

kargie
10-07-2010, 20:55
The tank isn't the only war machine that got boosted to T10. The casket of souls for TK is, the cauldron of blood for DE is. Its a response to the new wound chart and the way war machines work (and the way crew works in the case of the two I listed).

stuntyKing
10-07-2010, 20:59
Also the Anvil got T10, but the problem is that this thing rolls over your units.

Lord Zarkov
10-07-2010, 21:00
The tank isn't the only war machine that got boosted to T10. The casket of souls for TK is, the cauldron of blood for DE is. Its a response to the new wound chart and the way war machines work (and the way crew works in the case of the two I listed).
The Casket, the Cauldron and the Anvil went from completely unharmable to T10 against shooting in order to come in line with the new rules for War Machines.

The STank just became T10 for the lolz

Commodus Leitdorf
10-07-2010, 21:07
Guys, you're really worrying about nothing. If my opponents have a problem with the Stank I'll happily put it away....it will leave me more room to purchase Helstorms anyway (they're what you should really be afraid of).

kardar233
10-07-2010, 21:12
The two (2) reasons that I can see why people are getting up in arms about the Stank:

1. Quite a few armies will struggle to get even the 2-3 wounds that will apparently neutralize it. This means it can wreak havoc quite nicely without being really able to do much about it.
2. Even armies that don't have trouble hurting it still take an inordinate amount of firepower to bring it down. The problem here is that you can only get VPs for it if you actually kill it, which even the most gunline-y Empire or Dwarf army will struggle with because it's damn tough. Taking it basically means that your opponent is not going to get those 300 VPs under the vast majority of circumstances.

Way back in WH40K 4th edition, there was a unit similar to this. It was known as a Holo-Falcon, Skimmer from Hell or just that ************* thing. If you paid the 180-odd points for a fully-upgraded one, there was absolutely no chance to kill it (odds of killing it with a lascannon hit were something along the lines of 1/18 IIRC, and that's if you even had LoS) as it was tough and amazingly fast. It didn't always have much ingame effect as it didn't often get to fire its weapons, but the sheer points-denial of the thing made it really frustrating, and generally a must-take.

yabbadabba
10-07-2010, 21:15
Guys, you're really worrying about nothing. If my opponents have a problem with the Stank I'll happily put it away....it will leave me more room to purchase Helstorms anyway (they're what you should really be afraid of). Even better when they become a 1-2 choice with the Helblaster :evilgrin:

@ Kardar - the Steam Tank doesn't even come close to the Holo-falcon mate.

kardar233
10-07-2010, 21:30
It was a bit of an exaggeration, but 10W at T10 takes a little bit less than 18 cannon shots to kill it. Or 180 handgun hits. Or (for those poor sods stuck with just Bolt Throwers) 30 BT hits. That's a hell of a lot of points denial.

I don't know how much cannons cost, but I can tell you that a points match in Handgunners or Bolt Throwers (depending mainly on hit modifiers) will take 15-30 turns for the BTs and anywhere from 6-14 turns for the Handgunners. 3 cannons (probably close to a points match) will still take 6 turns to kill it, and that means that they're not doing anything else.

Phaedrus
10-07-2010, 21:31
Never thought I would see so many people complaining about the Empire getting a small buff. The change is intended to enable the tank to have a chance of surviving a high strength attack, particularly one that ignores armor saves completely (aka bolt throwers), which previously could render the unit inert in one or two turns for a tenth of the points it cost.

If it makes anyone (Lizardmen, darkelves, skaven) feel better, it appears that the errata removes the tanks previous war machine status, so poisoned attacks will auto wound.

SYN Ace
10-07-2010, 21:36
I'm guessing no more auto hits because it's now a chariot and they gave the Commander WS3 S3 1A -- of course, if you have to roll to hit now, that means it would be subject to Poisoned attacks I believe where before it wasn't.


I run 4 armies and Empire is one of them. Took my Steam Tank to a tournament and in 2 games it got destroyed by Lizardmen and Vampires; games 3 and 4 Skaven put 8 wounds on it and another Vampire Count army put 9 wounds on it -- both those games it was a paper weight fairly early on. The one game it survived with only 4 wounds on it, it did not affect the outcome of the battle because I had to limit steam points because of the damage. It's grand moment was destroying a unit of 12 skinks and killing a bunch of Clan rats. And most of the time, the enemy troops were having to wound it on a 6 (which hasn't changed).

Can it be nasty, yes, but I was far more impressed by the Engine of the Gods that jacked my army up.

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 21:45
The problem here is that you can only get VPs for it if you actually kill it, which even the most gunline-y Empire or Dwarf army will struggle with because it's damn tough.


Clearly you have never played the most gunline-y Empire or Dwarf armies. In those matches Steam Tanks are usually off the board by turn three especially if there isn't a lot of cover.

At a hardboys-esque tournament both my first opponent and I played with double steam tank/gunline empire armies (no I’m not proud). No steam tanks were left on the board by turn 4. Anecdotal evidence? Maybe, but I assure you, steam tanks struggle against heavy artillery.

There will absolutely be armies that struggle against a T10 stank (wood elves come to mind, but they are already up a creek), but I'm not sure that the war machine is any more "crazy broken" then it was before.

Also, in 8th edition you don't score half points for any unit so this point is somewhat moot.

Shadowsinner
10-07-2010, 21:48
I don't mind the toughness 10. Now I can officially compare it to a german panzer tank :)

What I do mind however is that the LORE OF METAL has absolutely no effect on it. It's like throwing fire at a paper tower with gasoline waterfalls and having no effect...

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 21:48
It was a bit of an exaggeration, but 10W at T10 takes a little bit less than 18 cannon shots to kill it.

Your math is off. Cannons do d6 wounds not D3.

kardar233
10-07-2010, 21:50
I factored that in. For cannons, I'm counting shots not hits because the chance of actually getting a hit is reliable compared to Bolt Throwers and Handgunners whose chance of hitting is dependent on circumstances. Having done scatter hit chance calculations for 40K I can tell you that my numbers are at least in the right neighborhood unless the scatter rules in 8th are different than I thought.

TheAmazingAntman
10-07-2010, 21:53
Ah ok, I was wondering how you got to 18.

Although if you if you put your shot on 8 inches away from the back edge you have about a 2/3rds chance of hitting it (slightly less) as a chariot base is a tad under 4 inches. So I'm getting about 10 shots (slightly more) with average rolling to taker her down.

And of course, with all that said, 4 wounds will pretty much take a steamtank out of a game. So basically, if you hit a steam tank you have about a 25% chance to completely neutralize it. Not terrible, although not every army has cannons.

SYN Ace
10-07-2010, 21:54
It is still auto-hit in the close combat phase, the WS3 there was (probably) added for stuff like spells that act like close combat attacks, but isn't all out such, there is one Dark Magic and one Waagh spell at least, AFAIK.


Think that's out the window now that it is classified as a Chariot with a split profile. They even give the Commander 1 Attack now.

"It is the crew's Weapon Skill that is used for the purposes of the enemy rolling to hit, just as with cavalry." (p 86 8th edition BRB)

Course the never explicitly call him crew.

SeaSwift
10-07-2010, 22:01
Does the Empire AB not explicitly say that it is hit automatically in CC?

Lord Zarkov
10-07-2010, 22:03
It does indeed.

SYN Ace
10-07-2010, 22:11
Yeah, it does. The Steam Tank has always been problematic. Just wondering why they weren't a little more careful with wording since they changed its classification and gave the Commander an Attack, Weapon Skill, and Strength which one could infer that it goes by chariot combat rules at that point. They could have removed any confusion by saying explicitly that it still goes by the old close combat rules or by explaining what role the Commander plays now with his added stats or even saying "Except where noted elsewhere, the steam tank follows the rules for chariots."

So does the Commander get his 1A at WS3 now? If he doesn't use them in combat, why did they give them to him (other than to confuse me ha ha)?

Urgat
10-07-2010, 22:20
So, it is immune to spells w/o strenght?
"runs and check little waaagh"
Ok, Mork wants ya! is S10, I'm fine :D Heck, even Gaze of gork can wound it since it ignores saves and can now wound it on a 6. Lulz, as they say.

sorberec
10-07-2010, 22:31
2. Even armies that don't have trouble hurting it still take an inordinate amount of firepower to bring it down. The problem here is that you can only get VPs for it if you actually kill it, which even the most gunline-y Empire or Dwarf army will struggle with because it's damn tough. Taking it basically means that your opponent is not going to get those 300 VPs under the vast majority of circumstances.


QFT

Assuming I actually wanted to take an army with my High Elves under 7th edition (and I don't use Dragons) I had to pray I'd get first turn against Empire so I would have a chance to shoot at it before my Bolt Throwers got wiped out by the Empire artillery.

Against the inevitable 2 Stanks (plus Walter) I might as well not have turned up.

SideshowLucifer
10-07-2010, 22:43
Doesnt every army have a way to get a Str 10 character? I believe my general hits at Str 10 with a min of 7 attacks.

Havock
10-07-2010, 23:09
So, it is immune to spells w/o strenght?
"runs and check little waaagh"
Ok, Mork wants ya! is S10, I'm fine :D Heck, even Gaze of gork can wound it since it ignores saves and can now wound it on a 6. Lulz, as they say.

Well, doesn't it state that it is only affected by spells with a strength value and that all other effects are ignored?
the initiative check is a spell effect.
The "ignore armoursave"-part is a spell effect, hell, even the range is a spell effect!

/runs

:p

Urgat
10-07-2010, 23:13
I bet you it won't ignore a "woops I accidentally dropped the rulebook on it" effect :p
Seriously, none of what you talk about is spell effects, a I test is a test, and a range is just a spell characteristic, they have no effect on the tank, they just allow the spell to work or not (I know you're just being silly on purpose but still :p ... well, I hope you're being silly on purpose... ;) )Besides the errata only says to ignore the rules on page 50, the initiative test deal on page 51 remains untouched :p I assume pit of shade doesn't work because it has no S value (that's so idiotic but, ah well, I don't care, I can't use the lores).

kardar233
10-07-2010, 23:20
Doesnt every army have a way to get a Str 10 character? I believe my general hits at Str 10 with a min of 7 attacks.

No. About half the armies cannot get a S10 character even with the new magic item list unless you count Heroslayer which relies on there being at least 5 characters in base contact with your unit:rolleyes:.

Not counting SCs:
Beastmen: Not sure, but I don't think so unless they have a special magic item to that effect.
Bretonnia: I think they have a lance that does that. Could be wrong.
Daemons: Bloodthirster w/ Awesome Strength.
Dark Elves: Highly situational, 1-turn PoS+Caledor's Bane on the charge.
Dwarfs: Rune of Might, or whatever the 2xS vs T=>5.
Empire: No.
High Elves: No.
Lizardmen: No.
Ogre Kingdoms: Magic weapon (siegebreaker?) that does this.
Orcs: Wollopa's Wun-hit Wunda is S10 for a turn. If you manipulate things, then Shagga's Screaming Sword might be able, but unlikely.
Skaven: Fellblade.
Tomb Kings: No.
Vampires: No.
Warriors: No.
Wood Elves: No.

To conclude, 6.5/14 (Not sure about BM) armies can get S10 for at least one turn. Only 3/14 armies can sustain it for more than one turn. These are Skaven, Dwarfs and Daemons.

Also, I think that Mork Wants You should allow you to pick up the model and put it back in the foam.

Avian
10-07-2010, 23:22
Doesnt every army have a way to get a Str 10 character? I believe my general hits at Str 10 with a min of 7 attacks.
Dude, your general is a Bloodthirster, he is ever so slightly nastier than my Goblin Warboss.

Ludaman
10-07-2010, 23:30
Can you Heroic killing blow it? I Can see it now "I smite thee down in the name of the lady foul beast!" as my bretonnian general unscrews a bolt holding the thing together...

kardar233
10-07-2010, 23:31
You can HKB it. Very few armies have access to HKB though. Bretonnians are the only ones I can think of right now.

Are there any others?

Ludaman
10-07-2010, 23:33
Yeah, a Bret Lord with the +2 attacks sword, the HKB virtue, and the tress of isoulde (for hitting on 2+) seems like a pretty amazing combo these days.

ftayl5
10-07-2010, 23:50
You can HKB it.

So I can cut it's head off but I can't just melt the darn thing? :confused:
Seriously though it's not that bad if you consider the Hyrda, HPA (which you generally have to kill twice), Dragons...... Stegadons..... Dragons

Oh and Beastmen can get S10. Doombull with Stonecrusher Mace is Strength 9, Strength 10 vs Chariots and War Machines. If teh Stank isn't one, just give him a potion of strength - STRENGTH 12!!

I think a lot of armies can but, only for 1 turn

kardar233
11-07-2010, 00:06
So, exactly half of the armies have a way to get S10 on a character for at least one turn.

Only four of those can get it for more than one turn.

That means that a large number of armies don't have much of a chance of disabling it, much less getting the 300VP for destroying it.

SYN Ace
11-07-2010, 00:14
You're kidding right? You don't need S10 to kill it (just makes it easier). You only need to get a few wounds on it to make it next to useless. Regular S3 and S4 guys still wound it on 6s just like they did in 7th. Even S1 and S2 can now wound it on 6s. No more Unit Strength 10 for it. Terror got nerfed.

Plus, no more half points for knocking any unit down to half strength.

BattleofLund
11-07-2010, 00:38
You're kidding right? You don't need S10 to kill it (just makes it easier). You only need to get a few wounds on it to make it next to useless.

Plus, no more half points for knocking any unit down to half strength.

'A few wounds' = 'next to useless'? Disagree. Also, now I will have devoted a considerable amount of energy on a task just to not get totally destroyed by the Steam Tank - and gaining no VPs for it.

'no more half points for knocking any unit down to half strength'. No, but if I halve a three-hundred-point unit of, say, Temple Guard, the remainder is now MUCH easier to destroy (for example in close combat). The halved Steam Tank? The 2nd half will take as much killing as the 1st, and chances are I will have used up the one-use-only magic gadget(s) deconstructing the 1st half.

I think the T10 design decision was bad. T7 would have buffed it a little against cheap (and not-so-cheap) Bolt Throwers and medium Heroes, while still letting heavier stuff (cannon, stone throwers, kitted Lords) threaten it. Now there's not much, or even very little, that can seriously make the Steam Tank pause.

theunwantedbeing
11-07-2010, 00:47
Plus, no more half points for knocking any unit down to half strength.

It was a war machine and never gave up half VP anyway.

SYN Ace
11-07-2010, 00:51
'no more half points for knocking any unit down to half strength'. No, but if I halve a three-hundred-point unit of, say, Temple Guard, the remainder is now MUCH easier to destroy (for example in close combat). The halved Steam Tank? The 2nd half will take as much killing as the 1st, and chances are I will have used up the one-use-only magic gadget(s) deconstructing the 1st half.
.

The Steam Tank with 5 wounds won't be doing anything much to contribute to the battle. If you put 1 steam point in it, you have a 33% chance of a malfunction, 2 steam points and a 50% chance of a malfunction. It's pretty much done -- go kill something more squishy with the rest of your army.

You guys are making much too much of it. It's a 300 point unit whose performance degrades with each wound. Put 3 wounds on a dragon and it will still be gnawing on a unit as effectively as ever. And if the Steam Tank is still auto hit - then it's getting pounded on even more.


It was a war machine and never gave up half VP anyway.

Talking about everyone's units now.

Commodus Leitdorf
11-07-2010, 00:59
That means that a large number of armies don't have much of a chance of disabling it, much less getting the 300VP for destroying it.

That's not much different from what it was in 7th either....it was used for point denial, not because it was particularly effective (atleast in the super competitive department)

Honestly, for something that can only be used maybe (provided you don't screw up the steam points roll) 50% of the game, you guys are overreacting.

Now Helstorms....4 of those bad boys are far scarier then 2 Stanks.

SYN Ace
11-07-2010, 01:03
Yeah, Helstorms are scary in big numbers. Even though you roll twice for scatter - if they land on target, there is going to be a lot of tears. S5 plus the 5" pie plate -2 armor save = lots of dead dudes. And now the Engineer can use his reroll.

Foxbat
11-07-2010, 01:10
Personally I really don’t have any problem with the Stank having 10 wounds; it’s just the T10 that is the problem. However, the decision to make it T10 is likely a direct result of the revisions to cannons in general and the inclusion of several S6 and higher spells.

Given where the game is now, just for laughs GW should just make a couple of further revision to the Stank and make it a 0-1 option and if taken must be the BSB (no magic banner permitted) :D

Sygerrik
11-07-2010, 02:12
I'm happy with it at T10. I run a Screaming Bell, and that "d3 wounds to everything T7 or more on the battlefield" is music to my ears. 8th also doubled my chances of killing Elf bolt throwers with that result.

Ah, the Bell...

Don Zeko
11-07-2010, 02:34
You're kidding right? You don't need S10 to kill it (just makes it easier). You only need to get a few wounds on it to make it next to useless. Regular S3 and S4 guys still wound it on 6s just like they did in 7th. Even S1 and S2 can now wound it on 6s.

Yes, so S3 and S4 attacks are just as effective as they were before, i.e. not at all. The thing still gets a 1+ save, so you'll need (on average, assuming that you auto-hit the thing in CC) 36 attacks to do one wound to it. Plus, there's no +1 to hit against it anymore, and it is now completely immune to the lore of magic. So if you have cannons, it's basically a wash: the cannons are more accurate against it but something like 40% less likely to wound. But if you're not one of the 2 armies that get cannons (and especially if you're one of teh many armies that have neither cannons nor stone throwers) all of your current steam tank countermeasures got either severely nerfed or eliminated entirely (lore of metal). This would have made sense if the STank was an underpowered choice or was being severely nerfed by the transition to the 8th edition ruleset, but it wasn't actually effected that much. This buff was unneccessary, and makes the tank unreasonably difficult to kill for armies like Lizardmen, elves, or Warriors of Chaos.

SideshowLucifer
11-07-2010, 02:46
Dude, your general is a Bloodthirster, he is ever so slightly nastier than my Goblin Warboss.

Not quite, Crone Helbron has a sword that makes her Str 10. But I digress.
honestly thought most armies could actualy field something with Str 10.

kardar233
11-07-2010, 02:49
Wasn't counting SCs in that.

Hellebore
11-07-2010, 03:06
The best option is a large unit of very cheap troops imo. Skaven slaves, zombies etc.

They will have exactly the same chances of causing wounds as your elite knights, but will be doing more hits for less cost. You'd need at least a -2 ASM to get any negative to the tank's save. Ogre iron guts would reduce the tank's save to a 4+ but still wound on 6+. But then they'd have 3 attacks each so it'll add up.

I think you'll find that in this edition the best bet against High T units will actually be large cheap hordes, unless you've got monstrous infantry with high S to reduce the save of the tank with a high number of attacks.

Hellebore

Ender Shadowkin
11-07-2010, 03:16
Wasn't counting SCs in that.

nor Should you, it would be just like GW to try and force us all to buy into their unballanced SC system, yuck


The best option is a large unit of very cheap troops imo. Skaven slaves, zombies etc.

They will have exactly the same chances of causing wounds as your elite knights, but will be doing more hits for less cost. You'd need at least a -2 ASM to get any negative to the tank's save. Ogre iron guts would reduce the tank's save to a 4+ but still wound on 6+. But then they'd have 3 attacks each so it'll add up.

I think you'll find that in this edition the best bet against High T units will actually be large cheap hordes, unless you've got monstrous infantry with high S to reduce the save of the tank with a high number of attacks.

Hellebore

Thats your best shot at tying it up not killing it. But it will be an extremely rare day you actually can put enough S 3 or lower attacks on it to kill it, go ahead and calc out the odds with wounding and getting through the armor save. Which is the differnce between that anvils and Cauldrins, they don't get armor T10 is no big deal now that S1 attacks can hit it. You better believe that that I will always be field a scream now in my WoC lists. Great way to put wounds on tin cans, living and robotic.

The only sure thing to do is to make sure you really play with all of the terrain they want you to. Your going to be spending a lot of time hiding in it playing an empire player. the risk of that is probably enough to keep 2 stanks of the table. They have better cnance of blowing themselves up with that stupid mini-cannon than most things you can do with them.

The best spell to counter them is Cast on a bolt thrower you can now get back to a better chance of wounding the darn thing. Too bad you can only cast once a turn and on one unit...

kardar233
11-07-2010, 03:49
You need 360 S3 attacks to kill a Steam Tank. That's not very feasible.

SandQueen
11-07-2010, 04:00
As a change it seems very random and i was wondering if anyone on the GW development team has said anything about it. Could it be an errata on the errata? I'm not sure if i am missing something in the new rules that would force and increase in T for the tank.

because it's a tank. It's the only tank in the game. Fantasy Doesnt have a series of Armor rules for vehicles and whatnot so they jacked up the wounds and toughness and called it a day. Why? Because it's a tank. I dont care how mad some dirt farmers with pitchforks are at it, they're not going to hurt it because it's a tank.

in short: Its a metal box on wheels with guns. Not bound by the weakness of flesh or fiddly magical shennanigans. IT. IS. A. TANK.

Hellebore
11-07-2010, 04:04
By 40k standards it's a pretty shoddy tank. I mean, a bunch of grotz can kill it if you have 360 of them (which is 1080 points) or 60 of them attacking it 6 times (which is 180 points).

Hellebore

Don Zeko
11-07-2010, 04:06
because it's a tank. It's the only tank in the game. Fantasy Doesnt have a series of Armor rules for vehicles and whatnot so they jacked up the wounds and toughness and called it a day. Why? Because it's a tank. I dont care how mad some dirt farmers with pitchforks are at it, they're not going to hurt it because it's a tank.

in short: Its a metal box on wheels with guns. Not bound by the weakness of flesh or fiddly magical shennanigans. IT. IS. A. TANK.

What a great approach to games design. Why care about balance or how fun the game is to play when you could break everything with slavish devotion to an idiosyncratic literalism. This is the kind of foolishness that gave us the Fly High rule in 5th edition, and I think I speak for many of us veterans when I say that i don't want to go back.

loveless
11-07-2010, 04:12
Wasn't counting SCs in that.

Which is a bit silly. Let's just ignore options available to the army because of some weird sense of personal balance :p

I understand that some of the "old school" doesn't care for named character use, but it's still a potential addition to the list of solutions available to a given force.

scarletsquig
11-07-2010, 04:19
It probably got a boost because, at 300 points, it is now only possible to take one of them in a 2000 point game.

1 steam tank on it's own used to suck pretty badly, very easy to deal with.. target with everything, put 3-4 wounds on it and it was out of action for the rest of the game... it was only ever 2 of the things that caused a problem, 20 wounds was just too much to chew through in 6 turns, especially when the smart players kept the things behind terrain a lot... TLOS in 8th makes that much more difficult.

Steam point generation means that, even after 2-3 wounds it's pretty much crippled since you can't generate a useful amount of steam points without high odds of blowing it up.

Destroying the steam tank is hard, turning it into a piece of immobile terrain for the rest of the game only takes a single cannonball or similar.

And yep, 2 of them can be taken in a 3000 point game, but at that points level any army should have something capable of dealing with big beasties. T10 is a fairly big bonus that strikes bolt throwers off the list, but it's not entirely unmanageable, it can still be at least neutralized with ease.

With the crazy buff to empire engineers, I think we'll be seeing more in the way of helstorms and helblasters in the rare slots anyway.

SYN Ace
11-07-2010, 05:16
A lot of Empire players aren't even thinking about taking a steam tank. It's all about mortars and helstorms (with a liberal dash of cannon and helblaster). Engineers are going to make empire artillery hellacious.

I think people should hold off on all the hand wringing about the steam tank's toughness until we've all gotten a few games in and can compare notes.

yabbadabba
11-07-2010, 09:35
This does sound like an awful lot of hot air to be honest, and especially as no one could have actually put in more than. what, 2 games with the rulebook and FAQs?
Yes it is a tough cookie to kill, but not to marginalise. Anything with a strength value can wound it. In all honesty the Steam Tank has gone from an autopick to something that needs to be considered, especially with the Hellstorm being so much more potentially dangerous.

Korraz
11-07-2010, 11:40
-Charge Tank with a reasonable big unit of cheap X. 25 to 30 guys.
-Laugh at him, because you are always stubborn and he will never, ever, ever, ever leave this combat.

Frotz
11-07-2010, 12:30
No. About half the armies cannot get a S10 character even with the new magic item list unless you count Heroslayer which relies on there being at least 5 characters in base contact with your unit:rolleyes:.

Not counting SCs:
Beastmen: Not sure, but I don't think so unless they have a special magic item to that effect.
Bretonnia: I think they have a lance that does that. Could be wrong.
Daemons: Bloodthirster w/ Awesome Strength.
Dark Elves: Highly situational, 1-turn PoS+Caledor's Bane on the charge.
Dwarfs: Rune of Might, or whatever the 2xS vs T=>5.
Empire: No.
High Elves: No.
Lizardmen: No.
Ogre Kingdoms: Magic weapon (siegebreaker?) that does this.
Orcs: Wollopa's Wun-hit Wunda is S10 for a turn. If you manipulate things, then Shagga's Screaming Sword might be able, but unlikely.
Skaven: Fellblade.
Tomb Kings: No.
Vampires: No.
Warriors: No.
Wood Elves: No.

To conclude, 6.5/14 (Not sure about BM) armies can get S10 for at least one turn. Only 3/14 armies can sustain it for more than one turn. These are Skaven, Dwarfs and Daemons.

Also, I think that Mork Wants You should allow you to pick up the model and put it back in the foam.

Not to be a douche, but empire still has the mace of helsturm and runefang available for the general.

Lhel
11-07-2010, 13:08
Can you Heroic killing blow it? I Can see it now "I smite thee down in the name of the lady foul beast!" as my bretonnian general unscrews a bolt holding the thing together...
Don't say such things when I'm drinking coffee, my co workers wondered if I'd gone mental... Well more then normal anyway... And my my keyboard is now very brown and sticky... Needs to be replaced now damn it.

A bit more on topic I'd say I think the changes came more since GW seemed to want to simplify a lot of the units. My own TK took a hit and have been even more spanked then usual. I enjoy using the casket, it actually got pretty badly nerfed. Went from not possible to be harmed to T10 which means with this new table means it's much more likely to be taken down. The previous version was however possible to take down in two stupidly lucky hits, or even just one which isn't the case anymore, but overall it's much easier to deal with then before. As it can't move, that also makes it even more so simple.

The steam tank is now pretty hard, but it's not harder then most that unit level. It's become very resilient to one off lucky shots, but concentrated fire or just bogging it down with cheap expendable anything is quite doable now.

Stop thinking you need to be able to kill anything with one attack combo, just wear it down with cheap troops, why does it always have to be a hero or something which kills it in one mighty sweep of his toothpick after his dragon-snack?

RanaldLoec
11-07-2010, 13:18
The reason gw made the steam tank T10 is as follows.

The warhammer rule designers fed up with warseerites whining all the time about what's broken decided that it would be best to distract us all with one major thing to whinge about.


Ta da toughness 10 steam tank.

And so advances the evil plans of games workshop.

Minsc
11-07-2010, 13:38
No. About half the armies cannot get a S10 character even with the new magic item list unless you count Heroslayer which relies on there being at least 5 characters in base contact with your unit

All armies can get S10.
The +3 Strenght sword from the BRB + the potion of Strenght from the BRB = S10.

Let's not forget that all armies who can pick the Lore of Beasts can cast the +3S/+3A spell on the chars as well.

Draconian77
11-07-2010, 13:45
I think the real question is "can any army get S10 consistently?".

Elves could be in real trouble if they come up against Stanks and a decent magic defense. (Arch Lector, Lv4+Scroll, Rod of Power Caddy, Bsb Captain)

You used to need 12 S6 Bolt Thrower shots to kill it.
(So about 6 to cripple it.)

You now require 45 S6 Bolt Thrower shots to kill it.
(So about 22/23 to cripple it. Lets do some quick math...2 Bolt Throwers, 6 turns...12 shots without interruption...damn, not even close! :D)

"A seriously tough cookie."

I don't understand the reasoning myself. Yes, anything can wound it on a 6 but nearly everything could wound it on a 6 in 7th edition too. (There are a few S1 no save attacks which work now, but they are few and far between.)

In addition to that, all of the nerfs which applied to the Stank apply to the other races large monsters aswell. Truly odd but lets see what happens after 6 months and a few 8th ed tournaments.

RichBlake
11-07-2010, 14:20
Not to be a douche, but empire still has the mace of helsturm and runefang available for the general.

Mace of Helsturm relies on the Stank failing a Toughness test, of which it automatically passes all Characteristic tests bar Initiative :)

Runefang works though and Karl Franz with the Ghal Maraz is still the best way of killing a Steam Tank. You have a good point though, anyone saying Empire can't deal with a Steam Tank is bonkers, they are the BEST equipped to deal with a Steam Tank:

Ghal Maraz (4 auto hits, 4D3 wounds)
Runefang (Auto hit, Auto-wound, no saves)
Great Cannons (wound on 4+, 3 of them = Stank cost, do D6 wounds a time)
Other Steam Tanks (for the lolz?)

sorberec
11-07-2010, 14:23
I think the real question is "can any army get S10 consistently?".

Elves could be in real trouble if they come up against Stanks and a decent magic defense. (Arch Lector, Lv4+Scroll, Rod of Power Caddy, Bsb Captain)

You used to need 12 S6 Bolt Thrower shots to kill it.
(So about 6 to cripple it.)

You now require 45 S6 Bolt Thrower shots to kill it.
(So about 22/23 to cripple it. Lets do some quick math...2 Bolt Throwers, 6 turns...12 shots without interruption...damn, not even close! :D)

"A seriously tough cookie."

I don't understand the reasoning myself. Yes, anything can wound it on a 6 but nearly everything could wound it on a 6 in 7th edition too. (There are a few S1 no save attacks which work now, but they are few and far between.)

In addition to that, all of the nerfs which applied to the Stank apply to the other races large monsters aswell. Truly odd but lets see what happens after 6 months and a few 8th ed tournaments.

And of course, that's assuming your bolt throwers live long enough to get that many shots at it. I can count on the thumbs on one hand the number of times I've had all my bolt throwers available in my first shooting phase to be able to shoot at a Stank. And now my Bolt Throwers only have 2 wounds due to having 2 crew...

danny-d-b
11-07-2010, 14:39
Mace of Helsturm relies on the Stank failing a Toughness test, of which it automatically passes all Characteristic tests bar Initiative :)

Runefang works though and Karl Franz with the Ghal Maraz is still the best way of killing a Steam Tank. You have a good point though, anyone saying Empire can't deal with a Steam Tank is bonkers, they are the BEST equipped to deal with a Steam Tank:

Ghal Maraz (4 auto hits, 4D3 wounds)
Runefang (Auto hit, Auto-wound, no saves)
Great Cannons (wound on 4+, 3 of them = Stank cost, do D6 wounds a time)
Other Steam Tanks (for the lolz?)

erm- wrong hammer- your thinking of the hammer of jugment- the mace of halstrum is the close combat cannon (S10 D6 wounds)

yep stanks are now going to be problmatic- however my 6 ogers with GWs and mark of khone should do something to it- 1.75 wounds a turn from normal attacks 0.25 from thunderstomp- so hopefully 2 wounds a turn

hacksaaw
11-07-2010, 15:34
Killing a steam tank should never have been your objective, giving it a couple of wounds should have been. and that remains the same with about the same chance today, while giving the tank a little more survivabilty against cannons and bolt throwers.

If your fixated upon kiling the ST, rethink your game plan, wound it, and then watch your empire opponent treat it oh so carefully for the rest of the game. while you have rendered it ineffective and can then kill the rest of his army.

im much more worried about facing a DE Hydra than a ST, because it will still be combat effective after taking a couple of wounds.

yabbadabba
11-07-2010, 15:37
Killing a steam tank should never have been your objective, giving it a couple of wounds should have been. and that remains the same with about the same chance today, while giving the tank a little more survivabilty against cannons and bolt throwers.
If your fixated upon kiling the ST, rethink your game plan, wound it, and then watch your empire opponent treat it oh so carefully for the rest of the game. while you have rendered it ineffective and can then kill the rest of his army.
im much more worried about facing a DE Hydra than a ST, because it will still be combat effective after taking a couple of wounds. Its a valid argument mate but its being ignored by the panic mongers and math hammer fanatics.
Time to abandon these ever decreasing circles.

SideshowLucifer
11-07-2010, 16:09
I think the reason people are worried about killing it is how battles with VP are won now. It's pretty decisive and a ST is a great way to deny VP and tie up a lot of an opponent's army.

I'm not one of the ones who think it's op'ed, but I certainly see why they are focused on killing it rather then neutrilizing it.

Korraz
11-07-2010, 16:21
Well, that was also the case in 7th edition. The Stank was always better at denial than at killing. And point denial is a thing nearly every army is able to do jolly good.

twistinthunder
11-07-2010, 17:15
Well I mean.. It is a tank after all, almost WWI tech right there, its made of metal. But as for gameplay, no, no it wasn't neccessary, steam tanks were already good as they were, they didn't need a buff.

yes they definately got a buff....

because everything can wound it the steam tank got better! somehow...

because it's now vulnerable to lore of metal spells it got better! somehow...

Urgat
11-07-2010, 17:20
It's not vulnerable to lore of metal since none of the metal spells have a strenght value.

Ender Shadowkin
11-07-2010, 18:04
The steam tank is now pretty hard, but it's not harder then most that unit level. It's become very resilient to one off lucky shots, but concentrated fire or just bogging it down with cheap expendable anything is quite doable now.

?

If you consider an average of 360 attacks "do-able" then you are absolutly right... you might want to look into that statement a bit more.


All armies can get S10.
The +3 Strenght sword from the BRB + the potion of Strenght from the BRB = S10.

Let's not forget that all armies who can pick the Lore of Beasts can cast the +3S/+3A spell on the chars as well.

Well yeah, then you get a 50% chance to do a wound for each hit , for one round of combat. So you can put most of your magic item alotment to put a couple wounds onto a steam tank and then get stuck there the rest of the game. Beasts magic might work better, but counting on rolling and getting off multiple spells(or at least the same spell a couple times) at exaclty the right time and situation... is a very unreliable strategy.

I still think the best bet is to avoid it, or just get it locked up with a cheap ranked unit where you can use your steadfast rule. Its going to be a rare day when you kill one of these suckers. Note that dosn't necessarily mean the Empire list is top tier or anything, but they definetly got a nice boost. IMHO units like this tend to pump up everyones frustration level (in forums AND games) so I was hoping they would move away from it, which it seams most of the 8th changes have done to the other things like Hydras, walls of nurgle, and unkillable DE lords.

My personal strategy is to show up with my Bretts and heroic killing blow every game until my regular empire oponent gets it into his head that the tank is too risky ... :D

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 18:11
Sorry, this is going to be slightly negative.. but for all the people defending the Steam Tank, it seems to me that they either lack the experience to make an accurate analysis, or are just outright new to the game. No one, with at least an edition's worth of experience and has fought against it before would say the new one is balanced, or fine, or "look at Dragons and Stegadons!". That's just laughable.

T10, W10, 1+ armor, immune to spells without a strength value. There is nothing in the Warhammer world that comes close in durability, VP denial, power and threat that this thing does for 300 points.

Now go play some games and level up instead of epic fail theoryhammering.

Minsc
11-07-2010, 18:16
Well yeah, then you get a 50% chance to do a wound. So you can put most of your magic item alotment to put a couple wounds onto a steam tank and then get stuck there the rest of the game.

If you'd read what I was responding to, you'd notice that I wasn't saying that it's a good way to take on a Steamtank, but that I replied to someone who said that some armies don't have any way of reaching S10, wich is wrong.


Note that dosn't necessarily mean the Empire list is top tier or anything, but they definetly got a nice boost

Actually, due to the T10 Stank I do see Empire as becoming one of the "top tier" armies in 8th Ed.
- Great shooting in general.
- Awesome magic. (Level 4 + Archlector and Rod of Power = on average the Empire player will have 4 extra DD in addition to those gained from the Winds of Magic)
- Not the best infantry, but cheap enough to gain some units with the Steadfast rule to prevent you from reaching his shootingunits too soon.
- And now the Stank, wich with T10 becomes the best "monster" in the game.

They did more or less loose their detatchment rule though wich is sad.

TheAmazingAntman
11-07-2010, 18:34
It was a war machine and never gave up half VP anyway.


Right, that's what I'm saying. That can no longer really be a point of contention because no units give half points anymore.

Sand
11-07-2010, 18:51
It's all about the many more attacks and always wounding on sixes that 8th brings. Plus, stuff like the Beastman 3d6 S1 hits spell are now a real issue for Steam Tanks. As a countermeasure, they made S5-7 things less of an issue for it that they were previously.

I think overall it became easier to kill (or at least effectively take out), not harder.

Sand
11-07-2010, 18:57
Sorry, this is going to be slightly negative.. but for all the people defending the Steam Tank, it seems to me that they either lack the experience to make an accurate analysis, or are just outright new to the game. No one, with at least an edition's worth of experience and has fought against it before would say the new one is balanced, or fine, or "look at Dragons and Stegadons!". That's just laughable.

T10, W10, 1+ armor, immune to spells without a strength value. There is nothing in the Warhammer world that comes close in durability, VP denial, power and threat that this thing does for 300 points.

Now go play some games and level up instead of epic fail theoryhammering.The thing is, noone really has any experience right now, including yourself ;)

I think you fail to take into account that with the new rules it's much easier to get a lot of shooting attacks in on the Steam Tank for example. Add in the fact that stuff like Gnoblar Sharp Stuff (as well as the Gnoblars themselves) can now wound it.
If that's not enough, consider that there are also spells and items that buff Strength beyond what we're used to from 6th/7th edition and I think you'll find it's quite alright.

Minsc
11-07-2010, 19:01
Plus, stuff like the Beastman 3d6 S1 hits

It's 5D6 S1 even, often accompanied by the 'reroll failed to wound' item in the same army.

On average it deals 0,9 wounds (5 wounds before saves).

Sand
11-07-2010, 19:15
It's 5D6 S1 even, often accompanied by the 'reroll failed to wound' item in the same army.

On average it deals 0,9 wounds (5 wounds before saves).
Ooh! Even better (well, worse, for the Steamtank) :)

Urgat
11-07-2010, 19:20
Yeah, if it's targeted by that spell, the poor stank is doomed :p

Drasanil
11-07-2010, 20:28
I think overall it became easier to kill (or at least effectively take out), not harder.

Considering you can park a lore of life wizard next to it and use the Lore's Special Ability (which, AFK, is not a spell) to pile wounds back on to it, not really.

Don Zeko
11-07-2010, 20:36
It's all about the many more attacks and always wounding on sixes that 8th brings. Plus, stuff like the Beastman 3d6 S1 hits spell are now a real issue for Steam Tanks. As a countermeasure, they made S5-7 things less of an issue for it that they were previously.

I think overall it became easier to kill (or at least effectively take out), not harder.

No, it's obviously not. Let's break this down.

Changes that make the Steam Tank easier to kill:
-very low strength attacks can wound it. In practice, this is pretty much limited to the beastmen spell and bloodcurdling roar, because S3 and up attacks could already wound it on a 6.
-Cannons and Stone Throwers don't have to guess range against it, although this isn't that big a difference. Experienced players in 7th rarely mis-guessed by more that 2-3 inches.
-Heavens magic has higher strength attacks, Shadow magic gets the pendulum, i.e. one dispellable short-ranged cannon shot.

Changes that make the Steam Tank harder to kill:
-No +1 to hit large targets, so bolt throwers are less likely to hit it.
-The Steam Tank is now immune to the lore of metal.
-T10 means that heavy cavalry, Dragon Ogres, troops with great weapons, monsters, and all but the most absurdly powerful characters will only wound it on a 6, rather than a 4 or 3.
-T10 means cannons wound it on a 4+ instead of a 2+
-T10 means stone throwers wound it on a 5+ instead of a 2+ with a direct hit.

So if you go down the list, the only countermeasures that didn't become much less effective are the beastmen spell and bloodcurdling roar. Considering that the Tank was already considered one of the very best things in the empire list, I just don't see why this is necessary. It would be like an errata that gave screaming skull catapults the 5" blast template instead of the small one. GW should be buffing units like empire halberdiers or WoC forsaken, not the power units that have dominated the game for the past edition.

TheAmazingAntman
11-07-2010, 20:37
Considering you can park a lore of life wizard next to it and use the Lore's Special Ability (which, AFK, is not a spell) to pile wounds back on to it, not really.

That's an intresting idea, although probably not that practical. You'd have to mount him so that he could keep up with the darn thing. And you'd probably not want to leave him by his alone as he'll get shot to hell, so maybe give him a 5 man unit of knights to keep him company. That's a something like 200 or so points for a a trick that'll fool your opponent maybe once.

Sand
11-07-2010, 20:40
No, it's obviously not. Let's break this down.

Changes that make the Steam Tank easier to kill:
-very low strength attacks can wound it. In practice, this is pretty much limited to the beastmen spell and bloodcurdling roar, because S3 and up attacks could already wound it on a 6.
-Cannons and Stone Throwers don't have to guess range against it, although this isn't that big a difference. Experienced players in 7th rarely mis-guessed by more that 2-3 inches.
-Heavens magic has higher strength attacks, Shadow magic gets the pendulum, i.e. one dispellable short-ranged cannon shot.

Changes that make the Steam Tank harder to kill:
-No +1 to hit large targets, so bolt throwers are less likely to hit it.
-The Steam Tank is now immune to the lore of metal.
-T10 means that heavy cavalry, Dragon Ogres, troops with great weapons, monsters, and all but the most absurdly powerful characters will only wound it on a 6, rather than a 4 or 3.
-T10 means cannons wound it on a 4+ instead of a 2+
-T10 means stone throwers wound it on a 5+ instead of a 2+ with a direct hit.

So if you go down the list, the only countermeasures that didn't become much less effective are the beastmen spell and bloodcurdling roar. Considering that the Tank was already considered one of the very best things in the empire list, I just don't see why this is necessary. It would be like an errata that gave screaming skull catapults the 5" blast template instead of the small one. GW should be buffing units like empire halberdiers or WoC forsaken, not the power units that have dominated the game for the past edition.
I think you forgot "troops always get to strike at it, in multiple ranks" and "shooting in ranks, through forests" and "spells and items buffing Str to heretofore unseen levels now exist" ;)

Sand
11-07-2010, 20:41
Yeah, if it's targeted by that spell, the poor stank is doomed :pIf there's one thing I've learned from Warhammer it's "everything counts in large amounts" :)

WillFightForFood
11-07-2010, 21:00
Deleted Post

Drasanil
11-07-2010, 21:10
Steam Tanks needed the boost because they were used for points denial purposes rather than for combat ability (largely because the rules for steam point generation are problematic).

Uh, you do realise they didn't really boost it's combat abilities yes? They just made it even better than it was before at points denial... way to solve that problem.


Now they are more likely to get into combat but are still killable by ordinary troopers.

:rolleyes:

Sure, if by "ordinary troopers" you mean those ever so common blighters that can dish out some 350+ attacks over the course of a game.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 21:10
The thing is, noone really has any experience right now, including yourself

You don't need 8th Ed. experience to see that thing is imbalanced in relation to other units.

I don't fail at anything, you fail at pointing out the obvious wound table that's been named and quoted in 3 other similar threads.

6s means nothing. It takes something like 426 S1-4 attacks to bring that thing down. Wounding on 6s doesn't mean the Steam Tank is not imbalanced.

How long have you played this game?

Sand
11-07-2010, 21:19
You don't need 8th Ed. experience to see that thing is imbalanced in relation to other units.

I don't fail at anything, you fail at pointing out the obvious wound table that's been named and quoted in 3 other similar threads.

6s means nothing. It takes something like 426 S1-4 attacks to bring that thing down. Wounding on 6s doesn't mean the Steam Tank is not imbalanced.

How long have you played this game?
Oh please. Quit the condescension. All I was saying was that 7th ed. experience doesn't necessarily translate to 8th. There's a whole lot of changes that aren't gonna be obvious before we've played the new edition for some time and seen it all in practice.

I've played Warhammer for something like 17 years, so it's not all new to me. I also don't think I "fail" at anything but eliciting a civil response from you, but that's as may be.

The thing is, the Steam Tank is gonna be taking a whole lot of attacks; something it really didn't do earlier, where fights went "Steam Tank charges, makes million billion casualties, gets no hits back, probably breaks unit" -now it's gonna get at least 2 ranks of autohits back. I hardly think it's absurd to think that's gonna be a factor.
Also, with buff spells, we are gonna see higher strengths on "normal" infantry units.

Then there's another issue, namely it's effectiveness. It's pretty much always gonna be fighting Steadfast troops in this edition, so I think it makes a lot of sense to give it a survivability boost against certain things on that account.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 21:29
Are you saying the Steam Tank is balanced then?

No need to give a damn about 8th Ed or how it'll play out ingame. Look at every other unit in the game that compares to it; dragons, treeman, other chariots, even the casket or anvil, the Hydra..etc.

Is it balanced around those?

TheAmazingAntman
11-07-2010, 21:33
HeroFox, you are unquestionably out of line. This supposed to be an area for civil discussion, let’s be nice.

I don’t think anyone doubts that the steamtank is going to be tough. It always was, however, I’m not so sure it’s the game breaker that a lot of people think it will.

The steamtank was the king of crushing SCR and forcing units to roll double ones to stay in combat, it has significantly lost it’s edge in that way. It will still be a monster in close combat though.

Sand
11-07-2010, 21:33
Are you saying the Steam Tank is balanced then?

No need to give a damn about 8th Ed or how it'll play out ingame. Look at every other unit in the game that compares to it; dragons, treeman, other chariots, even the casket or anvil, the Hydra..etc.

Is it balanced around those?Yes, I think it'll turn out to be just fine. The way to kill it probably won't be to crash a monster into it, but they'll probably find something else to do.

Texhnolyze
11-07-2010, 21:34
I'll just try to scream it to death with my exalted champion ^^
If I ever see one that is...

Lord Inquisitor
11-07-2010, 21:39
Bwa...? :wtf:

What an odd errata. Suffice to say this looks like an error. If nothing else, there's little incentive other than reduction in armour save to attack the Stank with high-strength attacks.

If this is here to stay... well, on the cusp of a new edition that might actually encourage Empire players to spend their points on infantry, a Stank or two will be absolutely compulsory because next to nothing can hurt it. :rolleyes: T8 would be resectable, especially with Potions of Strength out there, S8-10 is not unreasonable. I feel that Stanks should be reasonably worried about Dragons and Greater Daemons ... but with T10 they're just an annoyance to be ground into the dirt.

TheAmazingAntman
11-07-2010, 21:43
I'll just try to scream it to death with my exalted champion ^^
If I ever see one that is...

The visual of this is amazing. Reminds me of something out of a 80's hair metal music video.

Damocles8
11-07-2010, 21:44
-T10 means cannons wound it on a 4+ instead of a 2+
-T10 means stone throwers wound it on a 5+ instead of a 2+ with a direct hit.


I think this might be the reason right here.....you have a 300 point rare that won't be in anything less than 1500 pt games, and you will see more of these higher strength weapons in games (empire can take 3 cannons for the same points of a steam tank)

Razhem
11-07-2010, 21:45
It's all about the many more attacks and always wounding on sixes that 8th brings. Plus, stuff like the Beastman 3d6 S1 hits spell are now a real issue for Steam Tanks. As a countermeasure, they made S5-7 things less of an issue for it that they were previously.

I think overall it became easier to kill (or at least effectively take out), not harder.
And this is where people seem delusional. Do a recount of every single strength 1 and 2 attack in the game. Now make a list with the strength 5 to 8. There's a hell of a lot more stuff in the second list.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 21:46
Yes, I think it'll turn out to be just fine. The way to kill it probably won't be to crash a monster into it, but they'll probably find something else to do.

That's all I needed to hear, thanks.


HeroFox, you are unquestionably out of line.

Anyone who thinks this is "OK" is out of their minds, or play Empire. That's how I see it. It's like putting a shooting Ultralisk in StarCraft with 10 Armor and 1000 HP and telling everyone else to GL HF. The cost of the tank is nowhere close to the cost of XY and Z units to kill it.

Sand
11-07-2010, 21:50
That's all I needed to hear, thanks.



Anyone who thinks this is "OK" is out of their minds, or play Empire. That's how I see it. It's like putting a shooting Ultralisk in StarCraft with 10 Armor and 1000 HP and telling everyone else to GL HF. The cost of the tank is nowhere close to the cost of XY and Z units to kill it.
No problem. You're welcome.

I DO play Empire, but I don't actually use a Steamtank and I don't see myself getting one this time around either.

I honestly don't see it being a problem either, but I guess that means I'm "out of my mind". I honestly don't get this way of "debating", but whatever floats your boat.
I guess I'll just have to take comfort in being the one with an actual argument.

Razhem
11-07-2010, 21:51
Yes, I think it'll turn out to be just fine. The way to kill it probably won't be to crash a monster into it, but they'll probably find something else to do.

Comedy gold. "I'm sure you can pull something out of your ass to take it down!"

I frankly don't believe the tank will do even remotely enough damage to compensate it's cost because of steadfast, but on the other hand, it's VP denial is savage. It's 300 VP that except for a couple of armies in a few combat configurations you will never get. This can either be a huge deal or not depending on how competitive play and VP are tallied but it is certainly stupid hard to kill.

twistinthunder
11-07-2010, 21:53
has the errata been updated since they were put up? i've just found out that it's nowhere near in comparison to other T10 things (such as the casket of souls) as it has 10 wounds.

TheAmazingAntman
11-07-2010, 21:56
HeroFox, I wasn't referring to the steamtank, I was referring to your attitude. Condescension and elitism are not acceptable on these forums.

(Also, congratulations Spain.)

Sand
11-07-2010, 22:00
Comedy gold. "I'm sure you can pull something out of your ass to take it down!"That's not what I'm saying at all, though. I'm saying your monsters can probably do something else than kill the Steam Tank.
But yeah, I can think of a fair few things that at least stand a reasonable chance of disabling it. Which is about the way it was before.



I frankly don't believe the tank will do even remotely enough damage to compensate it's cost because of steadfast, but on the other hand, it's VP denial is savage. It's 300 VP that except for a couple of armies in a few combat configurations you will never get. This can either be a huge deal or not depending on how competitive play and VP are tallied but it is certainly stupid hard to kill.Now that is exactly what I'm saying. It won't be all that it was earlier, hence an added survivability against some things (and, yes, less survivability against other things) is in order. You only need to put a few wounds on it to render it ineffective after all. Plus it looks like it can be tarpitted to Hell this time around.

There's no denying that it is very good at denying VP, but that's the way it's always been. Edit: also, the way VP is counted lots of stuff has become quite good at denial (basically everything is counted the way the Steam tank was before).

Frotz
11-07-2010, 22:10
I've played against the steam tank alot, it was a hard nut to crack before, but one thing is certain, when it's lost 2-3 wounds it'll see a lot less action depending on the player because of steam point generation.

Two of my closest friends whinged a lot the first time my brother fielded a steam tank, which heroically proceeded to charge a ogre tyrant and getting destroyed after doing almost no damage at all (i think it was 3 wounds on the tyrant's unit, of course, my brother was unlucky when rolling hits his 6 x d3 hits but still).

The same people thought 2 hydras and 2 repeater bolt throwers and maxed wizards wasn't cheesy at all. Even against an army of mostly core choices without any magic defense at all (due to pre-agreed conditions to prevent cheese, 6ed skaven, and no, i don't normally field cheesy lists i reckon, never fielded a HPA or multiple furnaces).

EDIT: it's been said more than three times at least in this thread, the stank is great at points denial so killing it shouldn't be a major goal of the game, rather just immobilizing it and then focus on eradicating everything else instead.

BattleofLund
12-07-2010, 23:20
it's been said more than three times at least in this thread, the stank is great at points denial so killing it shouldn't be a major goal of the game, rather just immobilizing it and then focus on eradicating everything else instead.

Let's for a second imagine that the player across from the Empire-army-with-Steam-Tank has a fair amount of stuff that aren't that great at killing Steam Tanks at all. Like, they will probably get bogged down in combat with it, losing combat the turns when the Tank can grind and not doing a lot of damage in their own turns either. Same as before.

Let us also imagine the Empire player has a not-terribly-fiendish-plan, like putting the Tank as a big wave-breaker between his army and the enemy's. 'The first of you scumbags who enters this room gets the shotgun... so who wants to go first?' Again, same as before.

But all counters that could worry it - high strength troops with high movement (Dragon Ogres, Iron Guts), mounted characters with high (ie, se7en) strength, war machines, magic - they are all less likely to accomplish 'immobilizing [the Tank] and then focus on eradicating everything else instead'.

Somewhat embarrassingly, I just don't get it. What is it the designers want us to do, in what direction do they imagine this meta-game will move?

Lord Inquisitor
12-07-2010, 23:38
I'm the same way, I don't understand the logic behind this change. Surely the games designers are aware that every competitive Empire army has at least one Stank, so even with "only" T6 and a 1+ armour they're considered too-good-to-leave-behind.

Now with all the 8th ed changes it has a few disadvantages but not really anything to write home about. Ultimately an Unbreakable chariot is a fantastic asset in 8th, it no longer suffers from being a Large Target (no more +1) and its cannon doesn't guess any more. I don't see that S2 attacks being able to wound it as any real threat. It can't break ranks, but then that's true of any chariot.

In an edition that's supposed to push infantry over monsterhammer what were they thinking? GW have always run on the principle of least-errata-possible, only putting errata when the rules are unworkable otherwise. The ruling on the Speed of Asuryan, for example, makes sense in that the pure RAW is used even though clearly the RAI for this edition is that ASF and ASL cancel out. Makes sense, they don't want to put in an errata if they don't need to, the RAW works. Many other examples of situations where GW have stood by the RAW providing it doesn't cause any mechanical issues. It is also almost unheard of for an errata to dramatically change how a unit is presented.

So what prompted this change? What made them put this errata in? There has to be a reason, but I just can't see it. The Steam Tank was slightly overpowered in 7th (especially in certain combinations such as with a second Stank), certainly there's no way anyone could imagine it underpowered. Why should this one particular unit get such a buff when there are many units that can be considered entirely useless under 8th ed rules? Particularly since a T6 steam tank is perfectly viable under 8th ed rules?

I'm still thinking this is a mistake that will be corrected simply because I can find no rhyme or reason to this change.

Damocles8
13-07-2010, 00:03
well what else got T10....Cauldron of Blood, Anvil of Doom, and Casket of Souls. Which one is worse than a Steam Tank?

Don Zeko
13-07-2010, 00:20
well what else got T10....Cauldron of Blood, Anvil of Doom, and Casket of Souls. Which one is worse than a Steam Tank?

That's not even close to the same thing. For one, those are war machines that have a much lower toughness in close combat. They also don't have 10 wounds, nor do they have an armor save, nor are they practically immune to magic. They also used to be completely invulnerable instead of T10, and this wasn't much of an issue because you could just kill their squishy crew, and they don't tie units up in combat will doing 4 or 5D3 S6 impact hits every round. Your comparison isn't apples and oranges, it's apples and hearing aids.

Lord Zarkov
13-07-2010, 00:27
well what else got T10....Cauldron of Blood, Anvil of Doom, and Casket of Souls. Which one is worse than a Steam Tank?
They all went from being completely invunerable when randomised to to having no randomisation but being T10 vs ranged attacks (and still very squishy in combat). They also have no armour save and at most 6 wounds (usualy 4-5). This was all so they fall in line with the new warmachine rules.

Steam Tanks simply went from T6 1+Sv to T10 1+Sv for no apparent reason.

xxRavenxx
13-07-2010, 00:41
The real question to ask, is which wins:

1x Steamtank vs. 50x Skaven slaves. :D

It will meet up with 4 wide of models on the charge, correct? Then take 3 ranks deep from hordes, so 12 attacks. Which means 2 wounds.

my money is on the slaves :) And they cost less too.

Nerf slaves! :P

Seth the Dark
13-07-2010, 00:49
The real question to ask, is which wins:

1x Steamtank vs. 50x Skaven slaves. :D

It will meet up with 4 wide of models on the charge, correct? Then take 3 ranks deep from hordes, so 12 attacks. Which means 2 wounds.

my money is on the slaves :) And they cost less too.

Nerf slaves! :P

Yea 2 wounds on a 1+ armor save. I think the Steam Tank wins.

Frankly
13-07-2010, 01:04
The reason is there's an overpriced new model and GW want to sell it.

Bingo!!!!!

CaptScott
13-07-2010, 01:36
Just putting this out there, alot of us Empire players have always viewed the Steam Tank as fairly useless and overcosted (in 7th), so threads complaining about overpowered Stanks is for me quite funny.

However in 8th most Empire players I've talked to were hoping for a reduced cost rather than any improvements. (In 7th was 300 points for a unit that gets 3-4 D3 impacts only in its own turn, and ends up doing bugger all in most games due to steam points). T10 however does seem to be a bit too much, I personally was hoping for a reduction to 260ish points, or making it perhaps T7 to be worth the 300.

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2010, 01:41
The real question to ask, is which wins:

1x Steamtank vs. 50x Skaven slaves. :D

It will meet up with 4 wide of models on the charge, correct? Then take 3 ranks deep from hordes, so 12 attacks. Which means 2 wounds.

my money is on the slaves :) And they cost less too.

Nerf slaves! :P

Certainly tying it up with a unit like slaves is a good way to deal with it.

However, it's not going to kill it. With 6 models in contact, so 18 attacks, will inflict an average of 0.5 wounds per combat phase. So 20 rounds of combat to kill it. Assuming 4 steam points per round, it'll inflict an average 8 S6 hits per Empire turn. So it'll have killed 50 slaves in 7.5 turns. So in a 6-turn game, steamtank vs skavenslaves is a no-victory-point tie. Assuming the slaves do not break at any point - reasonable if using general's Ld and BSB, but take either of these out of the equation then the Stank may break them.

Some armies don't have access to vast hordes of dirt cheap troops to tie it up with or cannons to shoot it with. Tying it up with chaff units also presumes that the Empire player will allow it to be charged or other units won't clear them away from the Stank.

It's not impossible to win against a T10 Stank, but given that they were already on the "unbalanced" side of things, it's now severely wonky and will be horrifically difficult for some armies to deal with but not such a problem to others.


Just putting this out there, alot of us Empire players have always viewed the Steam Tank as fairly useless and overcosted (in 7th), so threads complaining about overpowered Stanks is for me quite funny.
The prevalence of dual-steam-tank / war altar lists in tournament rankings argues against this. The WPS handicap system also penalises dual Stanks very heavily.

They're not necessarily overpowered per se but they're certainly unbalanced in that they get much better in synergy with certain elements of the Empire list.

They're certainly not overpriced in 7th ed. :wtf: I can't remember the last time I saw any serious (uncomped) tournament Empire list without one, that surely wouldn't be the case if they were overcosted!

RichBlake
13-07-2010, 01:52
To be honest even at T10 I fielded two Steam Tanks today and one was reduced to 6 wounds over 4 rounds of combat by Chaos Knights and a Lord with a Daemon Weapon, the other was eventually killed over 4 rounds of combat by over 40 Chaos Warriors and a Hero with a sword ignoring armour saves.

They're tough, but not unstoppable.

If they were T6 they would have both died in probably 2 turns, even just from the normal infantry attacking.

CaptScott
13-07-2010, 01:53
Good points Lord Inq, the best you can hope for with a stank is to neutralise it. So you need access to either cheap horde, unbreakables, shooting/magic that ignores armour, or cannons.

BTW I'm desperatly searching for a way for other armies to deal with it because I love the stank. Its an awesome piece of kit, fluffy, lets something in the empire army actually do some damage in combat, and logistically is great to use at tourneys. And I want to be able to field one without my opponent complaining. ;)

kaintxu
13-07-2010, 01:59
I'm the same way, I don't understand the logic behind this change. Surely the games designers are aware that every competitive Empire army has at least one Stank, so even with "only" T6 and a 1+ armour they're considered too-good-to-leave-behind.

Now with all the 8th ed changes it has a few disadvantages but not really anything to write home about. Ultimately an Unbreakable chariot is a fantastic asset in 8th, it no longer suffers from being a Large Target (no more +1) and its cannon doesn't guess any more. I don't see that S2 attacks being able to wound it as any real threat. It can't break ranks, but then that's true of any chariot.

In an edition that's supposed to push infantry over monsterhammer what were they thinking? GW have always run on the principle of least-errata-possible, only putting errata when the rules are unworkable otherwise. The ruling on the Speed of Asuryan, for example, makes sense in that the pure RAW is used even though clearly the RAI for this edition is that ASF and ASL cancel out. Makes sense, they don't want to put in an errata if they don't need to, the RAW works. Many other examples of situations where GW have stood by the RAW providing it doesn't cause any mechanical issues. It is also almost unheard of for an errata to dramatically change how a unit is presented.

So what prompted this change? What made them put this errata in? There has to be a reason, but I just can't see it. The Steam Tank was slightly overpowered in 7th (especially in certain combinations such as with a second Stank), certainly there's no way anyone could imagine it underpowered. Why should this one particular unit get such a buff when there are many units that can be considered entirely useless under 8th ed rules? Particularly since a T6 steam tank is perfectly viable under 8th ed rules?

I'm still thinking this is a mistake that will be corrected simply because I can find no rhyme or reason to this change.


Certainly tying it up with a unit like slaves is a good way to deal with it.

However, it's not going to kill it. With 6 models in contact, so 18 attacks, will inflict an average of 0.5 wounds per combat phase. So 20 rounds of combat to kill it. Assuming 4 steam points per round, it'll inflict an average 8 S6 hits per Empire turn. So it'll have killed 50 slaves in 7.5 turns. So in a 6-turn game, steamtank vs skavenslaves is a no-victory-point tie. Assuming the slaves do not break at any point - reasonable if using general's Ld and BSB, but take either of these out of the equation then the Stank may break them.

Some armies don't have access to vast hordes of dirt cheap troops to tie it up with or cannons to shoot it with. Tying it up with chaff units also presumes that the Empire player will allow it to be charged or other units won't clear them away from the Stank.

It's not impossible to win against a T10 Stank, but given that they were already on the "unbalanced" side of things, it's now severely wonky and will be horrifically difficult for some armies to deal with but not such a problem to others.


The prevalence of dual-steam-tank / war altar lists in tournament rankings argues against this. The WPS handicap system also penalises dual Stanks very heavily.

They're not necessarily overpowered per se but they're certainly unbalanced in that they get much better in synergy with certain elements of the Empire list.

They're certainly not overpriced in 7th ed. :wtf: I can't remember the last time I saw any serious (uncomped) tournament Empire list without one, that surely wouldn't be the case if they were overcosted!

Lord, the reason is clear, as some other people has said, TO SELL MODELS, they have a brand new plastic model that they need to sell, so now every empire player is going to use 2, and I would say that empire is one of the most played armies so there you go.

Its just as 40k with the valkiries why they made them so damm good and cheap compared to similar stuff? Because every IG player is going to buy 3 50€ models :D

On everything else I agree with you, I play with Daemons and LM and im going to have a hard time with it, not even the thister or a KoS who cost twice as much really stand a chance against him, doint just 1 wound, and then asuming 3SP which mean 6 S6 hits...... way no,

Don Zeko
13-07-2010, 02:04
Some armies don't have access to vast hordes of dirt cheap troops to tie it up with or cannons to shoot it with. Tying it up with chaff units also presumes that the Empire player will allow it to be charged or other units won't clear them away from the Stank.

Exactly. Let's take High Elves, for example. Their best bet to tarpit the thing is high elf spearmen, which cost 9 points per model. They will be a bit more efficient at wounding the Tank, however. You'll get 4 ranks attacking the tank, so 17 attacks per round, hitting on re-rollable 3's, wounding on 6's, and facing a 1+ save, for a total of .4 wounds per round of combat. Assuming one of them charges on turn 2, they'll do a grand total of 4.2 wounds to the tank, so, being generous to the elves, the tank will only be able to use 4 steam points in T2, 3 in T3, 2 in T4, and 1 in T5 safely, for a total of 16.7 kills.

So to get a unit that can soak that damage without losing steadfast or attack power, you need a solid 35 elves, for a total of 340 points. And again, this is the best case scenario for an infantry tarpit with an elf army. If the tank charges a smaller or more valuable unit, if the empire player charges in with something else to free up the tank, or if the elves fail a break test, the situation gets much worse. And thanks to the toughness 10 errata, having a 300+ point unit locked in combat with the tank for the entire game taking heavy losses is the best way to deal with it, because the 7th edition methods of getting rid of the tank (bolt throwers, Metal magic, white lions, dragons) have all been nerfed into oblivion. This is not good game design.

Don Zeko
13-07-2010, 02:07
To be honest even at T10 I fielded two Steam Tanks today and one was reduced to 6 wounds over 4 rounds of combat by Chaos Knights and a Lord with a Daemon Weapon, the other was eventually killed over 4 rounds of combat by over 40 Chaos Warriors and a Hero with a sword ignoring armour saves.

They're tough, but not unstoppable.

If they were T6 they would have both died in probably 2 turns, even just from the normal infantry attacking.

Both of those units were at least double the points value of the tank and were designed to kill tough things in close combat. Why is it reasonable for it to take 4 turns of grinding for them to kill a Steam Tank?

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2010, 02:14
To be honest even at T10 I fielded two Steam Tanks today and one was reduced to 6 wounds over 4 rounds of combat by Chaos Knights and a Lord with a Daemon Weapon, the other was eventually killed over 4 rounds of combat by over 40 Chaos Warriors and a Hero with a sword ignoring armour saves.

They're tough, but not unstoppable.

If they were T6 they would have both died in probably 2 turns, even just from the normal infantry attacking.
It should be noted that the Lord with the Daemon weapon probably costed as much if not more than the Stank. Plus probably the same again for the knights. 40 Chaos Warriors and a Hero costs 600 minimum for the warriors, plus commands, banners, upgrades plus the hero ... 800 points total at least?

So, conservatively, 1400 points worth of the meanest combat nutters in the Old World went up against 600 points of Steam Tank and managed to kill one and dent the other over four rounds. I'm sure the STanks did some pretty nasty damage in return.

Did your opponent win in the end or did your two Stanks hold up the bulk of his army allowing you to take the rest apart?


Good points Lord Inq, the best you can hope for with a stank is to neutralise it. So you need access to either cheap horde, unbreakables, shooting/magic that ignores armour, or cannons.
Cheap horde is the best option. Most ignore-armour weapons don't have the strength to reliably threaten it. Unbreakables or elites are vulnerable to being crushed to death. Etherials would be ideal for tying it up. Cannons are the best bet for actually killing it.

There are still some combos that work, depending on army. An Ogre with the Siegebreaker and a Potion of Strength can still smack one away like an oversized golfball, but not as easily as before. A Bloodthirster with Awesome Strength will do the job (more risky as the Stank if lucky could really hurt it back). Frostblade. And so on. Problem with these is you need to be expecting a Stank and these don't make good all-rounder characters.


Lord, the reason is clear, as some other people has said, TO SELL MODELS, they have a brand new plastic model that they need to sell, so now every empire player is going to use 2, and I would say that empire is one of the most played armies so there you go.

Its just as 40k with the valkiries why they made them so damm good and cheap compared to similar stuff? Because every IG player is going to buy 3 50€ models :D
I'm not convinced. They just released Boarboyz... shouldn't they be errata'd to be S10 to sell more models?

They released the valkryie but then they also released new Ogryns and they suck.

Plus most Empire players already have a Stank if not two. GW must surely know how much the lack of balance has hurt Fantasy recently. 8th seems to be a big step towards an attempt to balance the armies ... why throw that out the window for a particular model - especially one that most Empire players already have because it was already good?

Draconian77
13-07-2010, 02:23
It may just be a simple misunderstanding...

They may have made it T10 because it resembles a warmachine, when in reality it plays like a monstrous-chariot.

Hellebore
13-07-2010, 02:29
A large unit of slayers would be pretty good. Unbreakable and the slayer axes/slayer rule means that although they'll be wounding on 6+, they'll be putting out 2 attacks each with a -3 ASM reducing the stank to a 4+ save.

Hellebore

Draconian77
13-07-2010, 02:33
They would be decent choices if the Empire Mortars and Crossbowmen didn't reduce them to orange-paste first. ;)

I don't think that unarmoured Unbreakable/Stubborn troops are the way to handle the Stank. (Too much good support in the Empire list.) You are much better off with very cheap troops or Cannons.

RichBlake
13-07-2010, 02:33
Both of those units were at least double the points value of the tank and were designed to kill tough things in close combat. Why is it reasonable for it to take 4 turns of grinding for them to kill a Steam Tank?


It should be noted that the Lord with the Daemon weapon probably costed as much if not more than the Stank. Plus probably the same again for the knights. 40 Chaos Warriors and a Hero costs 600 minimum for the warriors, plus commands, banners, upgrades plus the hero ... 800 points total at least?


Firstly the Lord was "just" a Chaos Lord with a Daemon weapon and the mark of Nurgle which, though I may be wrong, is less then 300 points. In any case the Lord managed to kill Karl Franz, Deathclaw AND wound the Steam Tank 3 times so it wasn't too shabby imo.

The Warriors were actually in a block of 60 and another 15 charged the side, it was 75 Warriors with hand weapon and shield plus the Hero.


So, conservatively, 1400 points worth of the meanest combat nutters in the Old World went up against 600 points of Steam Tank and managed to kill one and dent the other over four rounds. I'm sure the STanks did some pretty nasty damage in return.

Firstly the Hero was no-where near the Steam Tank's cost and single handedly took off about 4/5 wounds as his weapon ignores armour saves.

As for the warriors sure they are expensive, but on 6's to wound followed by a 2+ save they could have been Goblins with spears either. The only difference would have been armour saves against my impact hits, however I was on 2s to wound and he was on 6's followed by a 6+ parry. If you factor in survivability vs numbers I think most things for the same numbers could have seriously dented it as they'd stay stubborn until there was 9 guys left.

But yes they did manage to hold up well. The only unit it really did mash was the knights because they lacked the number of attacks that his block unit had and they were ALSO wounding on 6s (though with a 3+ save). Even then this was only because the Lord was fighting Karl Franz allowing the Steam Tank to safely generate 4 steam points each of my turns.




Did your opponent win in the end or did your two Stanks hold up the bulk of his army allowing you to take the rest apart?

It was a 3K game with me using my theme'd gunline and him using loads of Nurgle Chaos warriors.

We had to end the game at the start of my turn 5 (meaning since he went first he had one turn left and I had 2) and he was bearing down on my gunline having already killed about 40 handgunners out of the 80 I started with, one of the Steam Tanks, Karl Franz and a unit of Outriders.

If things carried on he'd have probably won, but admittedly my army is very shooty in the way it has no combat units, so it's not the best example.

To be honest I'm an Empire player and I loved Steam Tanks as they were the main reason I started Fantasy, so I'm going to be bias. However I did see mine take a kicking today, albeit from expensive units. It would have worked just as well were they Goblins or High Elves or anything like that either as nearly everything is 6s followed by 2+.

I wont deny the Stank is much tougher now though, it's ability to throw out damage isn't as good comparatively though.

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2010, 02:45
Firstly the Lord was "just" a Chaos Lord with a Daemon weapon and the mark of Nurgle which, though I may be wrong, is less then 300 points. In any case the Lord managed to kill Karl Franz, Deathclaw AND wound the Steam Tank 3 times so it wasn't too shabby imo.
305 points ;) Although if mounted, that costs more.


The Warriors were actually in a block of 60 and another 15 charged the side, it was 75 Warriors with hand weapon and shield plus the Hero.

Firstly the Hero was no-where near the Steam Tank's cost and single handedly took off about 4/5 wounds as his weapon ignores armour saves.
Yes, but the point is that it took this hero (~150 points) plus 1245 points of his closest mates to take down the Stank. That a lot.


As for the warriors sure they are expensive, but on 6's to wound followed by a 2+ save they could have been Goblins with spears either.
This is true... and one of the reasons that if T10 is here to stay, it's horribly unbalanced.


To be honest I'm an Empire player and I loved Steam Tanks as they were the main reason I started Fantasy, so I'm going to be bias.
I love the Steam Tanks too. One of my very first models was the first edition Steam Tank. I don't want them to be underpowered or anything less than an awesome force on the battlefield - I just don't understand this Toughness change.

macdaddy
13-07-2010, 03:15
um.... i only read the first 3 pages and the last, but....isnt there a spell that allows you to buff a unit so it uses the units ld. for strength? so any army that has access to it , can throw its worst troop choice against it and kill it in 1 round of combat.

kardar233
13-07-2010, 03:28
High Ld troop choices are hard to find outside of Elves, and even so you're not guaranteed to do much damage. Even High Elven Spearmen are just Ld8 so they'll still be wounding on sixes, and you won't have too many men in base contact with it.


~EDIT~Also, I think (could be wrong) that Ockham's Mind Razor only works for the wound roll, in which there'd be no point for anyone except Elven elites.

RichBlake
13-07-2010, 03:36
305 points ;) Although if mounted, that costs more.


Well he was on a Daemonic Steed, so a little over I guess but he has a few advantages over the Steam Tank. Plus he wiped the floor with Karl Franz and the Griffon, if the Emperor of Mankind and his Griffon wasn't there to distract him I think the Stank would have died :P


Yes, but the point is that it took this hero (~150 points) plus 1245 points of his closest mates to take down the Stank. That a lot.


It is, but the thing is that it didn't need to be 1245 points of stuff, it could have easily been 5 point Empire Spearmen instead (though with a little extra for numbers to make up for less survivability).

It's weird, the tougher the Stank has got with the rules the better rubbish stuff becomes, if you look:

Hero with GW, 3 attacks, wounding on 6's, -3 to armour save
Spearman, 1 attack, wounding on 6's, -0 to armour save

Then however you look that even in Empire you can get 11 Spearmen for the cost of a Hero with a GW. Same with the Warriors but on a different scale. If you're wounding on 6s with the opponent getting a 2+ save anyway 40 Warriors are just as good as 40 Empire Spearmen, or even 40 Zombies.


I love the Steam Tanks too. One of my very first models was the first edition Steam Tank. I don't want them to be underpowered or anything less than an awesome force on the battlefield - I just don't understand this Toughness change.

Here are my reasons:


All strength values can hurt T10 now
There are a whole host of magic spells which make units strength 6,7,8 or higher which before was unheard of
Warmachines are no longer immune to poison
VPs aren't give for half strength, meaning you need to destroy units entirely. The Steam Tank can't pursue or overrun.
Units being stubborn with more ranks then opponent means 1 on 1 the Steam Tank needs to be fighting a unit with 9 or less models to have them break...
... because outnumbered by Fear causing enemy isn't auto break
Terror doesn't cause stuff within 6" to flee
You can only have one in a standard 2000 point game
With a maximum charge range of 15" even normal infantry can have a larger potential charge range
People can field more Warmachines due to the army selection....
...Other "monster" creatures tend to be cheaper and/or more surviveable against Warmachines (e.g. regen, flying moving you into combat faster etc)
All combats are likely to go on more then one turn, and the Stank only attacks every other turn.
The Stank isn't great in many missions. 2 of them mess with your deployment and deploying the Stank in the right place is crucial. One of them involves capturing a Watchtower, which the Stank can't enter. Finally one of them relies on the number of Banners you have, meaning surgical strikes can ignore it entirely.



That there is a list of stuff which are changes to the Steam Tank and other similar units from 7th to 8th.

Of course these effect all similar units to the Stank, however similar units still have things to offer, for example:

Hydra: Still has 4+ regen which can be used against warmachines, on a 5+ a wound hits the handler instead of the Hydra now, breath weapon can be used in combat, Thunderstomp! attacks, can pursue/flee, cheaper then Stank.

Hellpit Abomination: No charge reaction allowed, regen against warmachines, stupid number of close combat attacks, can charge in 360 degrees, can pursue or flee 3D6 instead of 3D6 pick two highest or 2D6, cheaper then Stank.

Giant: Cheaper then Stank. Variety of "special" attacks useful, but mostly situational. Chaos giants can have marks of Chaos.

The giant is probably the worst out of those three, but he's still quite a bit cheaper than the Steam Tank.

From what I've seen I think in 2000 points they will be less of a problem because you CAN only have one. In 3000 points two can be a problem, but likewise High Elves or Dark Elves could field 7 Repeater Bolt Throwers or Skaven could field 2 Hellpit Abominations and two Warp Lightning cannons. I dislike 3K games as the duplicate limits for 3K+ are actually better suited to 4/5K imo.

Don Zeko
13-07-2010, 03:48
~EDIT~Also, I think (could be wrong) that Ockham's Mind Razor only works for the wound roll, in which there'd be no point for anyone except Elven elites.

That's correct, the spell won't effect armor penetration.

Don Zeko
13-07-2010, 03:54
In 3000 points two can be a problem, but likewise High Elves or Dark Elves could field 7 Repeater Bolt Throwers or Skaven could field 2 Hellpit Abominations and two Warp Lightning cannons.

Dude, 6 repeater bolt throwers ain't gonna cut it against a T10 steam tank. Assuming that you don't lose any bolt throwers to counter-battery fire from the empire player's cannons (a BIG assumption), you'll need 4's to hit it and 6's to wound, they'll average one wound per turn on the thing, if they can all get LoS. that's 600 points of vulnerable war machines to disable but not kill a 300 point steam tank if they are allowed to fire all game.

And this, by the way, is exactly why T10 is a problem. there are a lot of armies that have several ways to get S6 or S7 hits, but find it practically impossible to get S9 or S10 hits, meaning they have no real options for dealing with a T10 tank apart from giving it a ranked unit to eat and ignoring it for the rest of the game.

Sygerrik
13-07-2010, 03:58
When nobody was looking, GW changed the Steam Tank's toughness to ten. They changed it to 10. That's as many as one ten. And that's terrible.

AngryAngel
13-07-2010, 04:15
Oh my word, haven't seen this amount of belly aching and sweaty nerd fear, since the Nid faq got released over in 40k. Hey I have an idea, lets write a serious petition, and send it to GW on behalf of the put out fantasy populace about this grave injustice.

Though, if we won't do that. Might I suggest, perhaps we play the new edition, see how the Stanks toughness 10 works out. As right now it looks alot like people trying to cry and weep little tiny, I can't kill everything tears. Is the empire now going to shoot straight up to the top ? Riding high upon the shoulders of their Deathstar, the Stank ?

I doubt this will happen, so we can all calm down. However this could also be some kinda strange ego crutch to be used against empire players now. "He had a Stank !! and somehow...somehow..I won"..You know get the kudos from your friends as you toppled the totally broken empire fiend !!!

Let's just play the game people. Don't we all have enough to worry about besides a toughness 10 steam tank ? If you don't, then I do envy you.

Oh as side note, am I saying its fair ? I don't know. Is it broken, I don't know either. However if games go just about the same way, inspite of the stanks toughness, I'd have to assume its not really a big deal.

Why not give it some time before its very name and pressence harkens fear and times of darkness.

Or play with it and consider it the Ghost Division, listen to some sabaton and just live in dread of the invincable, untouchable, Steam Tank.

Don Zeko
13-07-2010, 04:20
Oh my word, haven't seen this amount of belly aching and sweaty nerd fear, since the Nid faq got released over in 40k. Hey I have an idea, lets write a serious petition, and send it to GW on behalf of the put out fantasy populace about this grave injustice.

Though, if we won't do that. Might I suggest, perhaps we play the new edition, see how the Stanks toughness 10 works out. As right now it looks alot like people trying to cry and weep little tiny, I can't kill everything tears. Is the empire now going to shoot straight up to the top ? Riding high upon the shoulders of their Deathstar, the Stank ?

I doubt this will happen, so we can all calm down. However this could also be some kinda strange ego crutch to be used against empire players now. "He had a Stank !! and somehow...somehow..I won"..You know get the kudos from your friends as you toppled the totally broken empire fiend !!!

Let's just play the game people. Don't we all have enough to worry about besides a toughness 10 steam tank ? If you don't, then I do envy you.

Oh as side note, am I saying its fair ? I don't know. Is it broken, I don't know either. However if games go just about the same way, inspite of the stanks toughness, I'd have to assume its not really a big deal.

Why not give it some time before its very name and pressence harkens fear and times of darkness.

Or play with it and consider it the Ghost Division, listen to some sabaton and just live in dread of the invincable, untouchable, Steam Tank.

This is something of a straw man you're attacking. I don't think that a T10 steamtank is game-breaking; I wouldn't even consider it the most intimidating unit in the Empire list in 8th edition. But I do think that the Steam Tank shouldn't have been changed to T 10, and that the game would be better had it not. Other people disagree, and we all know what needs to be done when someone is wrong on the internet (http://xkcd.com/386/).

SideshowLucifer
13-07-2010, 04:28
Well at least people won't complain as much about my Dark Elves anymore *chuckle*

DaemonReign
13-07-2010, 04:32
I gotta agree with AngryAngel on this one. Sure, T10 is ridiculously vicious (and I'm gonna regret buying my friend his second Stank as a present a few months ago... man I wish now I had bought him a unit of flagellants instead! haha) - no seriously, T10 is vicious but after shuffling through the new magic lores I must conclude that there are at least a couple of spells in there that could seriously cripple the Stank, not to mention Augments that can make units fighting it quite effective.. but yeah it will be a gamble..

As a Daemon player I can still prance up to the thing with a S10 Thirster, disassemble it in a couple of CC-rounds and move on to making mince meat out of the rest of the army..

Of course, I'll be throwing in twice the points of the Stank cost.. But I can live with the Empire having one unit that requires that when I've got Flamers, when DE got Blackguard, and so on..

I think Stanks are fun. I think the steampunk influence should begin and end with them in WHFB. No more, no less. T10 Stanks will not ruin the game.

DaemonReign
13-07-2010, 04:36
Well at least people won't complain as much about my Dark Elves anymore *chuckle*

No I know!! Amazing isn't it! With the Hotek ring nerfed to oblivion, and only chosing the best save available, DE has suddenly become rather balanced!

Of course, I could always whine that Blackguard didn't get as nerfed as my poor Plaguebearers but I won't go there because I know people will show up outside my house with torches and stuff..;)

RichBlake
13-07-2010, 04:42
Dude, 6 repeater bolt throwers ain't gonna cut it against a T10 steam tank. Assuming that you don't lose any bolt throwers to counter-battery fire from the empire player's cannons (a BIG assumption), you'll need 4's to hit it and 6's to wound, they'll average one wound per turn on the thing, if they can all get LoS. that's 600 points of vulnerable war machines to disable but not kill a 300 point steam tank if they are allowed to fire all game.


Firstly that's a bit of a fallacy, you'll need 4s to hit at long range, which last time I checked was pretty damn long. As soon as the Steam Tank is anywhere near your deployment zone you're hitting on 3s.

Now 6 hits will cause 1 wound to a steam tank, which is then multiplied to D3. Even if you're hitting with half your shots you'll get 3 hits a turn, meaning 1 wound every 2 turns. If you assume the average D3 roll over the game is a 2 then thats a wound a turn.

However, let's just look at some other combinations shall we?

Bolt Thrower + Flaming Sword of Rhun = Now on 5s to wound with D3 wounds
Bolt Thrower + Lore of Metal Buff = Now on 3's or 2's to hit
Bolt Thrower + Harmonic Convergence = re-roll 1s to hit

Of course all this doesn't take into account the fact that after you have done at least 1 wound there is a chance the Steam Tank loses a wound from generating steam. Plus there's the fact if the cannon misfires the Stank loses D3 wounds.

Combine all this together and it's easy to knock the steam tank out of any sort of threat level but not so easy to kill it. In 2K though there's only one of them.

Don't get me wrong, it's tough. However I still think things like Hydras and Hellpit Abominations were and are far more horribly broken. Yet all the moaning is about this?



And this, by the way, is exactly why T10 is a problem. there are a lot of armies that have several ways to get S6 or S7 hits, but find it practically impossible to get S9 or S10 hits, meaning they have no real options for dealing with a T10 tank apart from giving it a ranked unit to eat and ignoring it for the rest of the game.

So you think a 300 point unit should be easily killed do you? Because that's what a T6 1+ save unit is when, as you point out, so many armies can get T6 or 7 hits. Yes it's tough, but so it should be, it's a bloody tank! I used to use the Stanks in 7th when they could charge in, impact hit everything and break it with the auto-flee from fear and I STILL got minced when some cheap Hero choice or Lord choice with a great weapon got into base to base with it because while a Hero or Lord can attack the Steam Tank and Stank has to attack the unit as a whole. Instead he just stood there hacking away at the tank.

For a comparison, a T6 steam tank could easily be killed by two Empire Captain with Great Weapons (112 points) and 25 spearmen (225).

Because the Steam Tank would go in and kill say 10, then the Captains would hit automatically inflicting 6 hits, then wounding on 4s so 3 wounds then the Stank would have to take 4+ saves say failing 1. The unit is stubborn so carries on. This is excluding the spearmen too btw.

Next combat phase the stank can't do squat so the Captains do another wound to it, now it's on 8.

In the Stank's turn it has 8 wounds, meaning it can generate 2 SP safely, 3 on a 1-5, 4 on a 1-4, 5 on a 1-3. Now here is a tricky bit as if you fail you're going to keep taking wounds, let's say the Stank player takes a risk and generates 3 and he/she gets it.

You get an average of 6 grind attacks meaning 5 dead. The Captains take another wound off you.

Next turn you can't fight, the captains take another wound off you.

Your turn again, however now you're only on 6 wounds, so 1 SP on a 1-5, 2 on a 1-4, 3 on a 1-3, 4 on a 1-2 and 5 on a 1.

Really in order to break them you'd have to kill at least 3/4 so in order to do that you'll have to get lucky or generate 2-3 steam points, which is risky.

We'll leave it there because as you can see even 2 heroes with great weapons rendered the Stank useless over a couple of turns. You could add in the points cost of the Spearmen themselves too but they were there to absorb wounds, and are only taken to fill the core allotments. What actually rendered the steam tank useless was 2 56 point characters who didn't even take a scratch back.

A T6 steam tank in the current game would be totally pointless and totally not worth taking. A T10 steam tank is a very very defensive option, but Empire can be a very defensive army. What it does well is not dying.

enigma-96
13-07-2010, 05:01
So you think a 300 point unit should be easily killed do you? Because that's what a T6 1+ save unit is when, as you point out, so many armies can get T6 or 7 hits. Yes it's tough, but so it should be, it's a bloody tank! I used to use the Stanks in 7th when they could charge in, impact hit everything and break it with the auto-flee from fear and I STILL got minced when some cheap Hero choice or Lord choice with a great weapon got into base to base with it because while a Hero or Lord can attack the Steam Tank and Stank has to attack the unit as a whole. Instead he just stood there hacking away at the tank.

For a comparison, a T6 steam tank could easily be killed by two Empire Captain with Great Weapons (112 points) and 25 spearmen (225).

Because the Steam Tank would go in and kill say 10, then the Captains would hit automatically inflicting 6 hits, then wounding on 4s so 3 wounds then the Stank would have to take 4+ saves say failing 1. The unit is stubborn so carries on. This is excluding the spearmen too btw.

Next combat phase the stank can't do squat so the Captains do another wound to it, now it's on 8.

In the Stank's turn it has 8 wounds, meaning it can generate 2 SP safely, 3 on a 1-5, 4 on a 1-4, 5 on a 1-3. Now here is a tricky bit as if you fail you're going to keep taking wounds, let's say the Stank player takes a risk and generates 3 and he/she gets it.

You get an average of 6 grind attacks meaning 5 dead. The Captains take another wound off you.

Next turn you can't fight, the captains take another wound off you.

Your turn again, however now you're only on 6 wounds, so 1 SP on a 1-5, 2 on a 1-4, 3 on a 1-3, 4 on a 1-2 and 5 on a 1.

Really in order to break them you'd have to kill at least 3/4 so in order to do that you'll have to get lucky or generate 2-3 steam points, which is risky.

We'll leave it there because as you can see even 2 heroes with great weapons rendered the Stank useless over a couple of turns. You could add in the points cost of the Spearmen themselves too but they were there to absorb wounds, and are only taken to fill the core allotments. What actually rendered the steam tank useless was 2 56 point characters who didn't even take a scratch back.

A T6 steam tank in the current game would be totally pointless and totally not worth taking. A T10 steam tank is a very very defensive option, but Empire can be a very defensive army. What it does well is not dying.

But you HAVE TO count the spearman cost or otherwise you'd be using a fallacy. If the spearman weren't there those two captains would have been pasted if they attacked as their own little two man unit. So really a similarly priced set up killed a similarly priced set up. Of course the GW captain player's tactic took many turns and the Stank player is (hopefully) intelligent enough to at least attempt to flank that spear unit.

Saying the Stank loses in that situation implies that the Stank player was either completely outmaneuvered or is a complete dumb@$$. In either case then the loss is justified.

sinnir
13-07-2010, 19:09
The reason is there's an overpriced new model and GW want to sell it.

I saw your post a few days ago and thought, "oh wah wah"...

I happened to be in a local game store yesterday and saw the price! Almost $60 USD wow... looks like a $35 model if you ask me

Skyros
13-07-2010, 19:30
As a change it seems very random

Why is it random? The casket of souls, the cauldron of blood, the anvil of doom, and the steamtank all increased to T10, no doubt as a result of the new wound charts, and shooting and fighting in 2 ranks.

Don Zeko
13-07-2010, 19:37
Why is it random? The casket of souls, the cauldron of blood, the anvil of doom, and the steamtank all increased to T10, no doubt as a result of the new wound charts, and shooting and fighting in 2 ranks.

Dear god, read the thread. The Cauldron, Anvil and the Casket are completely different, and T10 is a nerf, not a buff for them.

Draconian77
13-07-2010, 20:36
Skyros, those war machines went from being completely immune to shooting to being T10. They needed to do this because all of those warmachines operated under the old 7th ed system of [Roll a d6; 1-4: Warmachine 5-6: Crew]. To bring them in line with the current rules for warmachines they needed a Toughness value.

Now the Steamtank was T6 already. It was not a warmachine. It's rules where entirely functional. No change was necessary to bring it in line with 8th edition.

Damocles8
13-07-2010, 20:48
Dear god, read the thread. The Cauldron, Anvil and the Casket are completely different, and T10 is a nerf, not a buff for them.

Except for the fact that the anvil gets a nice armor save, and a ward save I believe......and which is tougher? A steam tank, or a cannon?

tetrishermit
13-07-2010, 20:51
You can always wound on a 6 now regardless of the difference in strength. That plus the fact that it now counts as a chariot and will actually yield vp now makes the T10 change make sense to me. Also big beasties in general have gotten a buff via thunderstomp and CC breath attacks, none of which benefit the steam tank. So basically, it was only fair that they gave it something because everything else did.

Souppilgrim
13-07-2010, 20:53
I don't understand why people are still talking about killing the steam tank. It has low to moderate offense, with low to moderate manuverability. Ignore it, avoid it, or tarpit it. Three winning tactics....tactics that won't stop a GD or many other scary big monsters that other army lists have access to.

If the steam tank remained unchanged, it would be gimp. A single bolt thrower and it's done. That's what 50 some points for some armies?

enigma-96
13-07-2010, 21:21
You can always wound on a 6 now regardless of the difference in strength. That plus the fact that it now counts as a chariot and will actually yield vp now makes the T10 change make sense to me. Also big beasties in general have gotten a buff via thunderstomp and CC breath attacks, none of which benefit the steam tank. So basically, it was only fair that they gave it something because everything else did.

This has already been argued away though. ONLY STR 1 and 2 couldn't hurt it, EVERYTHING ELSE inlcuding the most common str characteristic 3 could already hurt it. But T10, as has been explained many times in this thread, doesn't mean much against horde armies but is totally unfair to elite armies who, despite paying more for higher str attacks, still wound it on a 6.

Honestly I don't know why the Stank didn't receive thunderstomp that would have been a legitimate and understandable change.

loveless
13-07-2010, 21:23
So...how many people have actually played against the 8th Edition Steam Tank?

macdaddy
13-07-2010, 22:40
steamtank charges the flank, and.....both GW characters immediatly jump to the fight. then the unit passes its ld test and reforms.

Wah, Wah, Wah. I never understood how a big pointy stick (boltthrower) could kill it anyway.

oh, and dont forget that ALL cannons now do d6 wounds.

Mind razor - there are many ld 9 armies out there so a horde of 40 could possibly kill it , then add in your characters. or throw it on your .........(insert monster here)

RichBlake
13-07-2010, 22:49
But you HAVE TO count the spearman cost or otherwise you'd be using a fallacy. If the spearman weren't there those two captains would have been pasted if they attacked as their own little two man unit. So really a similarly priced set up killed a similarly priced set up. Of course the GW captain player's tactic took many turns and the Stank player is (hopefully) intelligent enough to at least attempt to flank that spear unit.

Saying the Stank loses in that situation implies that the Stank player was either completely outmaneuvered or is a complete dumb@$$. In either case then the loss is justified.

Not really, the Spearmen unit would be there ANYWAY as it's needed for the army. Warmachines and Spirit of the Forge aside in 7th my Stanks died most often to random characters with great weapons shoved into a random unit just to boost it's hitting power a bit. Also if you notice even with the points cost included the unit totally ties up the steam tank and costs less points then it.

Also charging in the flank would do nothing. You don't negate rank bonuses, you get +1 to combat res but the spearmen would be Stubborn until there was only 9 left and at the start of their combat phase they use the "Make Way!" rule to move the captains into B2B with the Stank.

So no, that just happens if a stank was to be in combat with something that can dish out 6 S6 attacks a turn. Against anything with a hero who can dish out say 4 attacks a turn ignoring armour saves (which every army can get) it starts getting the Stank will quickly become useless.

Again I think the thing is tough, I think a lot of people are commenting on it before actually fighting one in 8th.

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2010, 23:05
Also charging in the flank would do nothing. You don't negate rank bonuses, you get +1 to combat res but the spearmen would be Stubborn until there was only 9 left and at the start of their combat phase they use the "Make Way!" rule to move the captains into B2B with the Stank.
Minor correction - Make Way! works at the start of ANY combat phase. Little change in wording, BIG change in effects! No more avoiding characters by charging them in the flank. Similarly, you don't need to worry about putting your characters in the middle or side of a unit - if they're in combat then they can move. Even if they're in a charging unit!

Not really relevant to the discussion, just one of those things that made me say "Ooh!" when reading the new book... :)


So no, that just happens if a stank was to be in combat with something that can dish out 6 S6 attacks a turn. Against anything with a hero who can dish out say 4 attacks a turn ignoring armour saves (which every army can get) it starts getting the Stank will quickly become useless.

Again I think the thing is tough, I think a lot of people are commenting on it before actually fighting one in 8th.
I shall be playing against one in the near future, I suspect! But this thread was more about why the change was made - as noted already, the previously invulnerable war machines needed to be changed to T10, that makes sense, but the Stank seems an odd one. It is debatable whether 8th actually makes the Stank any worse with its printed stats and even if it does, so what? Many units have become relatively worthless without GW giving them errata.

I can say that with my normal Slaanesh-themed Daemons of Chaos list, my normal response to a Stank is to avoid it, but if necessary I have thrown my Keeper in to tangle with one. Now everything wounds on 6's, it would take my ENTIRE ARMY even with the additional attacks afforded by 8th FOUR close combat phases to kill ONE steam tank. If they could all get into base contact, which they can't. So in other words, anything contacted by the beast is pretty much stuck there until they die.

It isn't necessarily game breaking but it's decidedly unbalanced. And it's still a REALLY odd errata for a unit that was perfectly fine as was.

SYN Ace
14-07-2010, 01:30
I don't' think it was fine the way it was. Not if you carried it over unchanged into 8th - not now that you have 2 or more ranks attacking and stepping up; if you get a unit with great weapons or flails or decent strength on it - at toughness 6 it was going to get smoked quickly. Did it need to be 10? I don't know, it would be interesting to hear the designer's thought process. But I think there is too much hysterical reaction going on -- we'll see soon enough once people actually start playing against it whether it's overpowering or just tough to deal with (and lets be honest, most armies have some unit/character that is a total pain in the ass to deal with on some level). Some armies will undoubtedly have a tougher time against it than others. Successful players will come up with ways of counteracting it/neutralizing it. At least it's not T10 and totally unwoundable by regular troops like it was in 4th.

Draconian77
14-07-2010, 02:19
The problem I have with the above reasoning is that there are dozens of units who face the exact same problem in 8th. Why did this model exclusively receive a boost to its resilience? (Don't bring up the Cauldron, etc...that wasn't a boost.) What about Giants? They have half the wounds and not one pip of armour, why haven't they become T10 in this era of I fighting and Step Up?

The change to this one model just seems entirely whimsical.

enigma-96
14-07-2010, 03:26
Not really, the Spearmen unit would be there ANYWAY as it's needed for the army. Warmachines and Spirit of the Forge aside in 7th my Stanks died most often to random characters with great weapons shoved into a random unit just to boost it's hitting power a bit. Also if you notice even with the points cost included the unit totally ties up the steam tank and costs less points then it.

Also charging in the flank would do nothing. You don't negate rank bonuses, you get +1 to combat res but the spearmen would be Stubborn until there was only 9 left and at the start of their combat phase they use the "Make Way!" rule to move the captains into B2B with the Stank.

So no, that just happens if a stank was to be in combat with something that can dish out 6 S6 attacks a turn. Against anything with a hero who can dish out say 4 attacks a turn ignoring armour saves (which every army can get) it starts getting the Stank will quickly become useless.

Again I think the thing is tough, I think a lot of people are commenting on it before actually fighting one in 8th.

Sorry I didn't explain myself well enough, by flank the spearman I meant flank them with ANOTHER unit besides the stank.

Example: Stank hits Spearman (We can all agree this is a fail on the Stank player since this is clearly not the intended unit for the stank to attack) and fights them for 2 rounds, doing okay but not great. In that time the Stank player should be able to flank the enemy with another unit breaking rank bonus, getting plus 2 for charge and flank and hopefully adding enough ranks to negate steadfast as well (considering the Stank player is Empire this shouldn't be a problem.) The Stank wins and goes on to greener pastures.

Here's the thing though, it isn't spearmen the stank should be connecting with, if it does than the enemy outmaneuvered the stank and gave it a reason to suck. What the stank should be hitting are knights, msu units, and high armour high cost units. Most armies have these and most armies still have a use for these (despite what whineseer says about them.)

If a stank hit chaos warriors for example, at T10, it's taking the same damage as if it were fighting spearmen but the chaos warriors cost ALOT more and will lose just as much. The other issue is that even against mighty chaos warriors it will take 3-4 turns which gives the empire player more than enough time to get another unit in on the flank and totally rank that block of warriors. The stank might not be that great at killing (it's decent) but it's now the games best tarpit. Even worse is the fact that it tarpits that well while still killing some very expensive models.

That's my problem with the change it doesn't really affect my gobbos but it totally ****s my chaos army. Why should it be so grossly good at dealing with one army type, and still decent against the other? Even worse why should it get a boost in survivability towards cannons and the such when my shaggoth dies even faster now? When my poor giants die like goblins to cannon fire, and my chaos lord on jug is pasted even easier now? Why does the Stank deserve an update when countless others haven't gotten anything? I don't think everything I mentioned needs an update but if one thing gets it then why shouldn't others?

On a side note: I HAVE played against the stank in 8th and I've done fine against it with my gobbos and watched as my poor chaos army (proxy as it may be) was tied up and dealt with as the Empire player's leisure.

Second Note: RichBlake your semi-battle report on the stank's effectiveness is actually pretty biased since statistically a chaos lord should beat Karl Franz pretty handily, ESPECIALLY if he has the daemon sword. And the loss of your stanks came down to poor planning or outmaneuvering, not because they blow. Use em like a tarpit and you will do wonders with them now.

SYN Ace
14-07-2010, 04:57
You shouldn't let the STank get into combat with your Chaos Warriors. Throw a block of marauders with the mark of slaanesh at it and bog it down.

Damocles8
14-07-2010, 05:56
How about Mind Razor + Flaming Sword? one dead steam tank

Don Zeko
14-07-2010, 05:57
Let it get in combat with your chaos warriors? it can pivot on the spot and charge 15", why should M4 infantry be able to dictate which unit it charges?

RichBlake
14-07-2010, 16:11
Minor correction - Make Way! works at the start of ANY combat phase. Little change in wording, BIG change in effects! No more avoiding characters by charging them in the flank. Similarly, you don't need to worry about putting your characters in the middle or side of a unit - if they're in combat then they can move. Even if they're in a charging unit!

Not really relevant to the discussion, just one of those things that made me say "Ooh!" when reading the new book... :)


That is actually what I meant, as I was saying flanking a unit with a steam tank gives no benefit other then limiting attacks, which they'd then reform and face you anyway :P



I shall be playing against one in the near future, I suspect! But this thread was more about why the change was made - as noted already, the previously invulnerable war machines needed to be changed to T10, that makes sense, but the Stank seems an odd one. It is debatable whether 8th actually makes the Stank any worse with its printed stats and even if it does, so what? Many units have become relatively worthless without GW giving them errata.

Yup, I've just told you why the change was made, in my view. I didn't say it was the best solution, nor did I say that other units don't deserve a change to keep them useful. The Steam Tank would have been next to useless so they changed it to make it not useless :p

I honestly believe that they either always wanted it to be really tough but before T10 would have made it literally almost invulnerable or they simply felt that the £35, 300 point model that is the very exemplar of the Empire should still be useful. On top of that it could be Empire aren't due a book for a long time so it's not an issue due to be addressed next year, whereas if TK, Wood Elves, Ogres and Brettonians are all due this/next year for example their issues will only last 12-14 months whereas Empire might not be scheduled until 2012. Finally I do honestly believe each errata was done by a separate teams with little or no discussion or comparison between teams. Both the Empire Engineer and the Steam Tank got significant changes which makes them not only viable but a good choice in 8th, and other units had their rules changed to match USRs to prevent further mishaps in future (e.g. a item that allows you to be safe from weapons with the Sniper rule. The hochland now has the Sniper rule instead of the custom rules). Other erratas simply cleared up any ambiguities and brought things up to speed, some with crushing inflexiability and really just bringing it so it "works" in 8th rather then have "worth" in 8th.


I can say that with my normal Slaanesh-themed Daemons of Chaos list, my normal response to a Stank is to avoid it, but if necessary I have thrown my Keeper in to tangle with one. Now everything wounds on 6's, it would take my ENTIRE ARMY even with the additional attacks afforded by 8th FOUR close combat phases to kill ONE steam tank. If they could all get into base contact, which they can't. So in other words, anything contacted by the beast is pretty much stuck there until they die.

Thing is though you can argue something similar for a lot of things, if Skaven run two Hellpit Abominations the keeper can't fight them both, and the other one will tear you limb from limb. I'm not saying the Stank isn't tough, but remember nothing gives half VP anymore. If you tie up the Stank with a 600 point unit all game thats 600 points your opponent can't get and 300 points of your opponents you can't get. It'll be tricky but assuming you can do without that one unit/monster you'll be OK.

There really isn't an easy way to deal with it, but after using one I still believe it's still not as competitive as things like the Hydra and the Hellpit.



It isn't necessarily game breaking but it's decidedly unbalanced. And it's still a REALLY odd errata for a unit that was perfectly fine as was.

Yeah it was odd, it really threw me when I saw it. I don't think it was perfectly fine in 8th, I think it would have been totally useless. However the argument as to why did it get a change when other now useless units didn't is an entirely different subject. I think it needed the change and it got one because it was useless. I think the more important question is why didn't certain units get changes to make them useful :p


Sorry I didn't explain myself well enough, by flank the spearman I meant flank them with ANOTHER unit besides the stank.


Well yeah that's the point in 8th isn't it? You could say the same about anything in terms of hitting power. Any sort of hero on a monster that flies is in a far better position then the Stank to make use of this tactic due to the fact it moves faster and in a more free fashion. Even an Empire General on a Griffon can charge into the side of a unit and do a couple of wounds and take few/none back.

The steam tank is harder to wound on T10 but with only 5 attacks on anything on a monster base anyway what's the difference between trying to wound T10 with 1+ save and trying to wound a hero with a 2+ save and 4+ ward? Not that great probably.


That's my problem with the change it doesn't really affect my gobbos but it totally ****s my chaos army. Why should it be so grossly good at dealing with one army type, and still decent against the other?

Most units are like that. My cannons are only decent if you don't take monsters, but brilliant if you do. My mortar or hellstorms are decent if you don't take hordes of models, but brilliant if you do. Hell, it can go to Lores too, Lore of Metal is AWESOME against your warriors but only decent against your gobbos. The Stank isn't alone here.


Even worse why should it get a boost in survivability towards cannons and the such when my shaggoth dies even faster now?When my poor giants die like goblins to cannon fire, and my chaos lord on jug is pasted even easier now?

Your shaggoth/giant works at full effectiveness on 1 wound, the Steam tank takes 3 and stops working. Since the Shaggoth/Giant also has 6 wounds it's unlikely that a single cannon shot will destroy it. Also your shaggoth/giant got a significant boost with it's extra D6 extra S6 automatic hits. Also the Shaggoth is actually S8 if you give it a GW or has 6 attacks with an additional hand weapon and in either case costs less then the Steam Tank (S8 btw which would totally decimate a 300 point T6 Stank).

More importantly though, how could you possibly balance that without changing it's point cost? Give it a ward? increase it's Toughness to 9 or 10 which would be necessary to help protect from S10 cannons? All these things would make it unstoppable for it's points cost as it suffers none of the negatives that the Stank does (i.e. shaggoth/giant doesn't fight every other round of combat only, it can pursue or flee etc)


Why does the Stank deserve an update when countless others haven't gotten anything? I don't think everything I mentioned needs an update but if one thing gets it then why shouldn't others?

Different teams wrote the different erratas is my guess and some felt their job was to simply make everything work, others felt it was their job to make sure it did in 8th what it was designed to do for 7th.


On a side note: I HAVE played against the stank in 8th and I've done fine against it with my gobbos and watched as my poor chaos army (proxy as it may be) was tied up and dealt with as the Empire player's leisure.

If your warriors army had a Giant it would have battered the Steam Tank into next week. Everyone has SOME solution to it, whether you think it's worth taking in case you play a Stank is something different.

[quot]
Second Note: RichBlake your semi-battle report on the stank's effectiveness is actually pretty biased since statistically a chaos lord should beat Karl Franz pretty handily, ESPECIALLY if he has the daemon sword. And the loss of your stanks came down to poor planning or outmaneuvering, not because they blow. Use em like a tarpit and you will do wonders with them now.[/QUOTE]

Considering Karl Franz only has to hit a Chaos Lord once and he can kill him outright it's not as straight forward as "he should beat him every time". A chaos lord with 6 attacks at S6 ignoring armour (which is the minimum you can get with a Chao Lord witha daemon weapon) would result in 4 hits, 3 wounds and 1/2 would be saved by Karl Fran's 4+ ward. Franz then has 4 attacks back, two of which hit, auto wound, no armour then each does D3 wounds.

Also I take offence at the fact that from like 3 sentences you think you can judge my use of the Stanks as "poor planning" or "outmaneuvering". The Steam Tanks held up both a 1400+ point worth of Warriors with hero and 700 worth of knights and 300 points worth of lords. Yes I held both of them up but neither of those units died and one of my Steam Tanks died. So my opponent lost nothing from the endeavor but gained 300 points. I DID use them as a tar pit however the Lord and Hero in each unit still battered the Stanks because they both ignored armour saves.

I used them pretty well, on the other hand Karl Franz I didn't use well but if he and the Griffon didn't distract the lord the other stank would have died instead. They still got battered due to the fact they aren't quite as tough in practice as they are on paper, not because I'm a rubbish player who doesn't know what he's doing.


Let it get in combat with your chaos warriors? it can pivot on the spot and charge 15", why should M4 infantry be able to dictate which unit it charges?

Well I had already came to the view that you've not even played a Steam Tank in 8th (possibly even 7th) and now added to that is the fact not only haven't you played one but you don't understand the rules.

Firstly it CANNOT charge 360 degrees, it has to declare charges in the front arc like any other unit, and always has done. In fact the only unit that DOES charge 360 degrees in the Hellpit Abomination, but you don't see a 10 page thread complaining about that (anymore).

Secondly it does not even pivot when it charges anymore, it wheels like any other unit which, again, if you had actually read all the errata and the rules for chariots or even just played against one you'd realise that.

GrimmHammer
14-07-2010, 17:54
I like the change - it makes the steamtank once again terrifying - which it should be.

kaintxu
14-07-2010, 18:25
Yea but not as terrifying as it is now, a guy (bloodthister) which costs twice as many points, gets killed by it

Commodus Leitdorf
14-07-2010, 18:41
Yea but not as terrifying as it is now, a guy (bloodthister) which costs twice as many points, gets killed by it

Well if the Bloodthirster is silly enough to be anywhere near it I dare say he deserves it...

....sorry if I have no sympathy but I've had my Stank cut up by 7 automatic STR10 hits enough times to not really worry about what happens to a Bloodthrister should he be foolish enough to charge a Stank in this edition.

Don Zeko
14-07-2010, 18:43
Well if the Bloodthirster is silly enough to be anywhere near it I dare say he deserves it...

....sorry if I have no sympathy but I've had my Stank cut up by 7 automatic STR10 hits enough times to not really worry about what happens to a Bloodthrister should he be foolish enough to charge a Stank in this edition.

Yeah man, doesn't it suck when your steam tank gets destroyed by a lord choice that costs twice as many points and has been specifically tooled to destroy it...

SYN Ace
14-07-2010, 18:45
Let it get in combat with your chaos warriors? it can pivot on the spot and charge 15", why should M4 infantry be able to dictate which unit it charges?

It can still only charge in its forward arc. If a player can't figure out what unit the Empire player is going to probably want to charge with the Steam Tank and then plan accordingly and maneuver his troops to counter act it, then maybe he should take up checkers (though i have a feeling that the whole Kinging rule will be viewed as overpowered). That's why some people are better at the game than others--good at reading situations and acting in a decisive manner. And the ones who aren't good at tactics complain about things that whomp them. Maybe in the next few weeks we'll find out the Steam Tank is ridiculous, but as of now, with only a few 8th edition games under our collective belts, it's just knee jerk reactions.

knightwire
14-07-2010, 19:22
After reading this thread... I agree with RichBlake. No, I don't play Empire.

T10 is now the STank's "thing". Not having played against it yet I have to say it doesn't seem unbalanced. (Did you hear that Hero?) :) It seems like a natural adjustment to make with the other changes that are in 8e.

Striker_002
14-07-2010, 19:29
The steam tank had to get some boost considering its offensive power of being a line breaker went down the ****hole.(Terror nerfed, Steadfast means units it hits are effectively stubborn and it takes more then twice the hits it used to now since 2 ranks fight and casualties don't matter.) It closest comparison, that of monsters in other books, got the thunderstomp rule to give them some edge back from being affected by the same nerfs, so the steamtank gets T10 for it's counterbuff instead. It's gone from a glass cannon to a tarpit.

hacksaaw
14-07-2010, 19:59
Hero doesnt seem to get out and play much, the stank is fine at t10. it just bears repeating if your fixating on kiling it you deserve to lose the game. ( and i have been playing the game for a couple of decades even this rather silly new kiddie version will get played).

just put a couple of wounds on it and watch your opponent NOT USE IT to its maximum potential, because if he does he stands a choice of putting more wounds on it.

Or laugh when the cannon misfires and the stank is essentially out of commission with 3 wounds on it.

and yes its the only 10 wound monstrosity that can suddenly become combat ineffective with still over half its wounds remaining.

It had its toughnes increased because its going to be taking more hits now and inorder for it to be worth the points it needed a major boost in the defence department. or else they would have lasted into your opponents first turn and ended up damaged and stuck from turn 1 on.

Seth the Dark
14-07-2010, 21:49
What I love is how Fear tests are completely useless when going up against it. You're already auto hitting it.

xxRavenxx
14-07-2010, 22:42
I said a few words in defence of the stank the other day. I've now changed my mind entirely.

*my* army can handle it. (WoC) other armies probably can too. but some have sweet FA that they can do about a T10 highly armoured death-machine. A friend was showing me through his army book, and short of specificly tooling up half his army to go wade towards the thing and bring it down, he cant cope with the new toughness...

Skyros
14-07-2010, 22:49
Yea but not as terrifying as it is now, a guy (bloodthister) which costs twice as many points, gets killed by it

Any bloodthirster dumb enough to manage to get caught by something as slow as a steamtank deserves what he gets.

Any army is capable of dealing 3-4 wounds to the steamtank and that's all it needs to be basically useless.

KILLING the steamtank is much harder (got to go through another 7 wounds) and is a waste of time. It's also bad unit design. The steamtank should be T10 W5 and have a set 4 steam points (maybe you can try for a 5th and fail sometimes). Same steam point generation power, now it dies in 5 wounds instead of needing to hack through 10.

There's no question the steamtank needed a boost. It got nerfed in many many ways. The terror bubble is gone. The fear effect does nothing, since everyone hits it in close combat automatically. And now the impact hits don't remove attacks back and now the enemy can attack in twice as many ranks as before *and* anything can wound it on 6's *and* it's now vulnerable to poison *and* war machines shooting at it no longer need to guess *and* enemy units will always be steadfast vs the steam tank *and* it can no longer break ranks.

SYN Ace
14-07-2010, 22:57
I said a few words in defence of the stank the other day. I've now changed my mind entirely.

*my* army can handle it. (WoC) other armies probably can too. but some have sweet FA that they can do about a T10 highly armoured death-machine. A friend was showing me through his army book, and short of specificly tooling up half his army to go wade towards the thing and bring it down, he cant cope with the new toughness...

What army is he using?

Skyros
14-07-2010, 23:03
Also make sure he's looked at the new common magic items. There are several that are quite helpful.

kaintxu
14-07-2010, 23:12
Any bloodthirster dumb enough to manage to get caught by something as slow as a steamtank deserves what he gets.

Any army is capable of dealing 3-4 wounds to the steamtank and that's all it needs to be basically useless.

KILLING the steamtank is much harder (got to go through another 7 wounds) and is a waste of time. It's also bad unit design. The steamtank should be T10 W5 and have a set 4 steam points (maybe you can try for a 5th and fail sometimes). Same steam point generation power, now it dies in 5 wounds instead of needing to hack through 10.

There's no question the steamtank needed a boost. It got nerfed in many many ways. The terror bubble is gone. The fear effect does nothing, since everyone hits it in close combat automatically. And now the impact hits don't remove attacks back and now the enemy can attack in twice as many ranks as before *and* anything can wound it on 6's *and* it's now vulnerable to poison *and* war machines shooting at it no longer need to guess *and* enemy units will always be steadfast vs the steam tank *and* it can no longer break ranks.

Still its not fair to be able to get 600 points on an army which are almos indestructible for more the 3/4 of the armies.

I know that if the stem tanks catches the Bloodthister your doing something bad, but if the thister gets stuck into some stupid combat of any reason, the tank can just come and roll over you.

I totally agree with everything else you said about how it should be desing or that it was allready powerfull, if it was not, why on earth would every empire player use at least 1 at 2k points games in 7th?

SYN Ace
14-07-2010, 23:35
You don't need to destroy it -- just put a few wounds on it and it's next to useless.

chaospantz
15-07-2010, 00:25
Honestly im looking at the changes to the BRB and T10 works fine for me. Stone throwers will still get S9 and D6 wounds and now you dont have to guess the range on them so you can center the blast right on them. Same with cannons. All cannons are now S10 and do D6 wounds and again no more guess range. Infantry now can wound T10 just buy the sheer number of attacks and Steadfast will insure that the that block of 30 clanrats, or even better slaves, will hold up a 300 point model for half the game.

RichBlake
15-07-2010, 01:07
Yeah man, doesn't it suck when your steam tank gets destroyed by a lord choice that costs twice as many points and has been specifically tooled to destroy it...

So you think it's OK if a 600 point unit could, hypothetically, charge a 300 point unit. Kill it. Charge another 300 point unit, kill it. charge another 300 point unit, kill it. So on and so on and never take any damage? That was the problem with 7th and I'd rather not see it again in 8th.

7 Automatic S10 hits will still mash the Steam Tank by the way, an average of 3 wounds a turn means it'll take 4 turns to kill it and take next to no damage as after the first three generating more then 1/2 steam points is risky.


After reading this thread... I agree with RichBlake. No, I don't play Empire.

T10 is now the STank's "thing". Not having played against it yet I have to say it doesn't seem unbalanced. (Did you hear that Hero?) :) It seems like a natural adjustment to make with the other changes that are in 8e.

Well, there have to be some sensible people on the internet ;)

In all seriousness I do believe it needed a boost, I don't believe T10 is totally broke or unstoppable, I do believe that there are plenty of units that are more sick and wrong and finally I do believe that the T10 was chosen because it works without changing the points cost or how the unit works.


I said a few words in defence of the stank the other day. I've now changed my mind entirely.

*my* army can handle it. (WoC) other armies probably can too. but some have sweet FA that they can do about a T10 highly armoured death-machine. A friend was showing me through his army book, and short of specificly tooling up half his army to go wade towards the thing and bring it down, he cant cope with the new toughness...

I can't think of an army off the top of my head that can do NOTHING to it, especially as every army can take common magic items granting +3 to strength or +3 attacks or ignoring armour saves etc etc.

Foxbat
15-07-2010, 01:19
I seem to recall a post that the STank can now be poisoned. Is this right?

When I read the “Poisoned Attack” rule (BRB pg 73) it appears that as you automatically hit the Stank, poisoned shooting attacks are just regular attacks.

As for Close Combat, as you don’t roll to hit, how do you know you rolled a natural 6 to hit?

Skyros
15-07-2010, 02:03
Poisoning works against the steamtank, for shooting.

For close combat, every hit auto hits (steamtank special rule) so poisoning doesn't really apply.

Of course, for every attack, for every roll to wound of a 6 you wound, regardless of the toughness.