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Ksarn
11-07-2010, 08:12
Hi guys,

This will be the new WOC combined thread for tactics. Can we have the other two locked so we can use 1 combined 8th ed thread?

Welcome to 8th!

inq.serge
11-07-2010, 08:21
The official "Tactica: Warriors of chaos (7th)" approved 8th ed thread.

Finally.

Any opinions on banners and command? The move through all terrain banner, good for knight? Full command still useless on knights?

Peregijn
11-07-2010, 09:27
i tryed out the horde of Marauders yesterday
50 marauders with great weapons full command and mark of khorne, clocking in ad 300 points was completer destroying everything it touches. i have to say that they where only fighting zombies and skeletons and where continually fighting fresly raised units until the reached the necromancer who was summoning the critters.

it was the only unit that did perform well in my armie yesterday so i am a little biased. my chosen didn't have the killing power to kill the unit they where fighting (grave guard) they where really tough with the mark of Tzeentch and hand weapon shield bonus (3+ as and 5+ ward save). the +1 leadership banner and a lord with the crown of command. making the unit effectively stubborn leadership 10 and with a bsb nearby they could re-roll that leadership.

my lord didn't perform as he should manly because of my tendency to roll 1 on everything he did. i failed his 3+ ws to many times.... and so he was cut down by a vampire lord.

in the end i had only my horde of marauders and my bsb standing and he only had a unit of zombies in combat with my bsb and his unit of grave guard and vampire lord. so a major loss on my part but i have learnd that a horde unit works wonders. and that chosen and normal warriors with the 3+ save and 5+ ward are really tough to kill. but they cant dish out enough pain to win combats and so they will eventually loss and run away. (when fighting a unit of grave guard with a lord in it)

i will be using the horde a few more times to see if they can take tougher opponents and you will hear from me when i played an other game.

Kerill
11-07-2010, 09:38
Fair enough, I'll try and post up a general overview of Warriors of chaos in 8th for any newer players.

Well 8th edition is now fully upon as and as agreed in the old Warriors of Chaos Tactica, now that everything has now been released we can start the new tactica. Since Shamfrit (OP of the old tactica) has been banned I thought I might as well do the overview for the new one. I’ll also try to answer in the first few posts as many of the queries that are popping up on warseer and other forums about setups of units for different uses, marks, mono-god armies and whether X unit is good/bad in 8th compared to 7th.

First a couple of links:

I couldn't fit the characters and mono theme sections in the start of the thread due to the character limit, so here it is:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4814245&postcount=71

The FAQ on WOC for those who don’t have it yet:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1260034a_FAQ_WarriorsofChaos_2010.pdf

I’ve also added a post in the armylist section for people to post their ideas for their list in the army list forum. This post isn’t really for comments and suggestions, more to give people an idea of what their army is for 8th and their thinking behind it so if you do post there do feel free to add extra detail for readers. Hopefully this will also help keep this thread clean from people posting their list here and asking for help with it.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4813231#post4813231


COTEC- Warriors of Chaos Forum

http://z4.invisionfree.com/cotec/index.php?act=idx


And just for completeness since a lot of WOC players also have parts of other armies:

The Herdstone- Beasts of Chaos Forum:

http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?act=idx

The Daemonic Legions- Daemons of Chaos forum:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php?act=idx

General Overview

Since everyone should now have some kind of access to the book or has been reading forums I’ll just give a quick run down of some of the major changes in 8th and some quick notes on what they mean for WOC.

Steadfast-
In 8th edition any unit which has more ranks than the opposing unit can take any break tests on its own unmodified leadership- i.e. in 7th edition terms it is basically stubborn. This means that units of cavalry, monsters, chariots or other hard hitting units with a low model count (shock troops) can no longer simply roll over units of infantry by wiping out the front rank and breaking the unit more or less immediately with combat resolution.

“Step Up”-
In 8th edition all casualties are taken from the back of the unit which means that, unless your unit suffers casualties to the extent that it doesn’t have enough models to form a front rank, you can always fight with all the models in your front rank. This again means that having your front rank wiped out is now less of a problem since you can now still attack back. It also means that great weapons (even if they no longer strike first on charge) are an excellent weapon for a longer melee.

Supporting Attacks
In 8th this allows units of more than one rank to get one attack from the second rank if charged to the front. This means that units with ranks (typically infantry) now have more attacks, and this second rank also benefit from stepping up.

Fast Reform

This allows a unit with a musician to reform on a successful Ld test, following which it can still move its normal move distance in the remaining moves part of the phase. Again this is of more use to units with more ranks but is good for any unit with a musician.

Combat Reform

This allows a unit to reform in combat (automoatically if it wins, on a successful Ld test minus the amount it lost combat by if it lost). The unit can expand frontage to bring more models into combat but cannot reduce its frontage or otherwise reduce the number of models currently fighting in combat. This has many applications (going wide to butcher a horde of skaven slaves in combat for example) and also means that being charged in the flank is not as bad as it was in 7th as long as you don’t break in the first round. It also means that charging in the front and flank is the only way to negate your opponents rank bonus over a period of turns.

Horde

Any unit at least 10 models wide can make an additional attack with

Charging is no longer twice your movement.

Charging is now your M+2D6 (M+the highest 2 dice of 3 D6 for units such as cavalry with the swift strider rule). This means infantry can now charge a lot further on average and can potentially outcharge cavalry and monstrous infantry in 8th edition. It also makes 3rd turn charges against missile troops a possibility for M4 infantry.

All of the above rules have resulted in a substantial boost in the power of infantry compared to other troops types.

Striking in initiative order & charging only grants +1CR

Initiative has become a lot more important in 8th since charging no longer allows you to strike first. In 7th Cavalry could almost always strike first against infantry but in 8th everything is based on initiative order- which is great for armies with high initiative like Warriors of Chaos.

Monstrous Support

In 8th, units classed as monstrous infantry- MI- (which for WOC includes, ogres, trolls and Throgg but does NOT include dragon ogres) can use up to 3 supporting attacks from the second rank. This has meant a major increase in the utility of having larger units of monstrous infantry. In 7th edition a second rank was an expensive and relatively pointless waste whereas in 8th it allows you to use a lot more attacks. MI also now count 3 wide as a rank (6 for horde) rather than 5 which makes it a lot easier to have two ranks- 6 models is sufficient compared with 10 in 7th edition.

Frenzy

Frenzy is rather different in 8th edition is several key ways. First you must potentially charge your enemy at your maximum potential charge distance i.e. your M value plus the maximum value on 2D6 (12) so this would be16 inches for Chaos Warriors or 19 inches for Chaos Knights for example). You can, however, test to restrain to prevent charging (and can re-roll from the bsb) which makes frenzied troops much harder to bait than 7th edition and thus generally better. Also, unlike 7th, a frenzied character in a unit only causes the unit to have to test or charge, rather than individually, this prevents the problem in 7th where a character on a faster mount could easily be baited out of their unit. Finally frenzy (and hatred) no longer necessarily transfers to mounts meaning for example that Khorne Marked characters no longer have their frenzy passed to their mounts.

BSB Allows re-rolls of ALL leadership based tests in 8th edition

This is a major change in the utility of the bsb character who has generally gone (for WOC) from a character you can take or leave to one that you will almost always want to take. Re-rolling steadfast break tests is great, re-rolling frenzy restraint equally so. Re-rolling stupidity makes trolls a LOT more viable in 8th and also improves some of the magic items.

Generation of Power and Dispel Dice

In 7th power dice and dispel were generated by every wizard, in 8th you have a random pool with each wizard having a small chance to channel and extra die (1/6 chance for each wizard). Thus, whereas in 7th investing more and more points in magic would net a greater return, this is definitely not the case in 8th. Essentially this means that wizard-heavy lists from 7th can now drop additional mages and free a lot of points to spend on troops (or a bsb).

Casting level added to casting roll for spells and dispels

This means that having at least one high level mage for casting and dispelling is a good idea if you want to boost your magic phase or blunt your opponents to a greater extent.

Failed casting and Dispel Rolls

In 8th if a caster fails to successfully cast or dispel a spell they can’t cast any further spells or dispel any other spells that turn. For armies who want to use magic offensively this means having at least one back-up caster is definitely a good idea in case the dice desert you. It also means that items and abilities that can be used to boost your casting roll or re-roll dice are worth their weight in gold to reduce the potential problem of losing your main caster. For dispelling a backup caster is perhaps less important but can still be worthwhile.

Irresistable Force and Miscast

In 8th both irresistible force and miscasts are both caused on a casting roll with 2 or more sixes meaning that getting IF is not necessarily a good thing. The new miscast table is generally more destructive than in 7th although the chance of your sorcerer outright dying is much reduced. Miscasts will tend to make a mess of any unit the caster is in and most result will cause the loss of D6 magic dice which will often basically end your magic phase. As a result, if possible, and spells which require a lot of dice are best cast at the end of the phase, and especially by a mage not surrounded by expensive models or on their own outside a unit.

Core/Special/Rare

In 8th slot restrictions no longer apply as such and each army can split its points according to <25% Lords, <25% Heroes, >25% Core, <50% special and <25% rare. A further caveat being you can’t take more than 2 of the same rare choice of 3 of the same special choice unless you have a grand army (3000 points or more). This means it is much more easy to take multiple special or rare choices and reduces some of the pressure when choosing an army, especially in the special selection. Spawn are still a 2 for 1 choice meaning you can take 4 in an army of less than 3000 points.

Fear Autobreak

In 7th if you were outnumbered by a fear causing enemy and lost you would break on anything but insane courage, now fear is much weaker- Ld test or reduced to Ws1, A1 and you can re-roll the Ld test. This has benefited smaller elite units like warriors and also means that defence against psychology is not as necessary as it was in 7th.

Victory Points

There have been many changes in the victory points, table quarters no longer give VPs, you only get VPs for killing a unit rather than 50% like in 7th. Perhaps the biggest change is in capturing standards- standards are now worth 25 points each (100 for the battle standard) rather than 100 points meaning taking a standard for a unit is far less of a risk than in 7th edition meaning units that in the past may not have been given a standard for fear of giving up VPs may well now be given a standard. As an aside, one of the rulebook scenarios (Blood and Glory) can be immediately and automatically lost at the start of the battle if you don’t have any standard bearers at all and generally having more standards is very useful for that scenario.

Changes in the Rulebook Lores

The rulebook lores are now substantially more powerful than before with some spells now overshadowing the chaos lores in terms of sheer destructive potential- some of them because some spells can be boosted to be more powerful or to have increased range. For the rulebook lores available to Warriors of Chaos there has also been an increase in the overall casting values required to cast the spell and some changes in the nature of the lore. Each lore now also has a special ability which vary in their usefulness:

Lore of death has risen from an average difficulty of 8.17 in 7th to 9.14 in 8th or 14.28 if using the empowered versions of spells and is now primarily a character sniping lore. The special ability is that for each wound caused on a 5+ you get another power dice- a fairly useful special ability.

Lore of Fire has risen from an average difficulty of 8.17 in 7th to 8.85 in 8th or 12.85 if using the empowered versions of spells. Lore of fire is still generally a straightforward blasty lore. The special ability is that if casting a fire spell on a unit which has already hit by a direct damage or fire spell spell from the lore of fire you can add a (non-cumulative)+D3 to your casting roll. Not a great special but occasionally useful.

Lore of Heavens has risen from an average difficulty of 7.33 in 7th to 9.57 in 8th or 15.42 if using the empowered versions of spells. Lore of heavens is now less of a boosting/buff lore and more of a hex/damaging lore. The special ability is that any flyer targeted by a lore of heavens spell suffers an additional D6 S4 hits. Again, not a great special.

Lore of Shadows has risen from an average difficulty of 8.50 in 7th to 11.14 in 8th or 14.28 if using the empowered versions of spells. Lore of shadows is no longer the “movement lore” and only contains one magical movement spell. Apart from that it contains a mixture of damaging spells, buffs and hexes.. The special ability is a lore of shadows caster can.swap position with a friendly model of the same troop type within 18”. I really can’t see this being of much use in a battle, and especially not for chaos where different casters may well be different troops types or may be otherwise disallowed from doing this. The BRB also doesn’t deal with problems such as if a wizard on a chaos steed (cavalry) in a unit of knights casts the spell and a disk riding mage (cavalry) is within 18”- a flying character can’t join the unit but is of the same troop type.

In general the rulebook lores now have much higher casting values although if cast by a level 4 wizard the base spells are easier on average to cast than in 7th. The boosted values are considerably higher though. Compare these to the average casting values of the chaos lores:
Tzeentch: 9.12
Nurgle: 7.5
Slaanesh: 8.17

So with adding your caster’s level to the casting roll we can see that chaos spells are much easier to cast in 8th than 7th and are generally lower than the rulebook lores, especially if we consider the empowered spells.

Kerill
11-07-2010, 09:41
The Chaos Army

In the next section Iíll go over the different units in the chaos army. In past editions I would always have started with the characters but in 8th I feel the troops are more important in many ways. For each troop type Iíll give it a rough and dirty score out of 10 and a rough score for what I felt the unit was like in 7th edition.

CORE Troops

Chaos Warriors- 9/10 (6.5/10 in 7th)

Chaos warriors have always had the potential to hit hard but in 7th chaos warriors could also be steamrollered easily by heavy shock units wiping out the front rank (or most of) leaving very few models to attack back and therefore leading to losing combat by a large margin. This was made worse by the fact that although the base leadership of chaos warriors is good, the leadership of chaos characters in general is mediocre at best and with chaos lords never being a particularly good option the Ld of the army tended to be capped at the base leadership of 8. What this meant was that although Chaos Warriors were not a bad unit in 7th per se, they needed the army to be carefully built and the unit supported appropriately in order to be used effectively.

In 8th having a high base leadership is excellent for taking steadfast tests without needing the general nearby and with bsbís being more prevalent warriors are now much harder to break on the charge since they will generally have more ranks than most shock units. This means they are far less likely to simply be crushed on the charge.

Striking in initiative order at I5, step up and support attacks means that chaos warriors can lay down serious damage to almost any unit that charges them, and often will strike before their opponent- thus further reducing attacks from elite units. Definite contenders for best core infantry unit in the game this edition after almost 15 years of being ďmehĒ.

Blender Warriors

Chaos warrior units designed as blending machines for enemy units have traditionally been 6 wide since this is the maximum number of models you can fit in combat against a 5 wide unit on 20mm bases. This general rule is also true in 8th. This makes multiples of 6 the most common way to run warriors:
12 Warrior units were used by some in 7th but in 8th I think may well be too small since they are at risk of being crushed by shock troops since 2 kills means they will no longer be steadfast and casualties will also mean they are losing support attacks from the second rank. As a result units of 18 Warriors is probably the standard and best size for a killy unit since it isnít too expensive and yet can hold against most things on the charge and needs to take 6 casualties before losing any support attacks.

For equipment, statistically the best for killing your enemies are halberds- S5 negates the most common armour saves and wounds T3 on a 2+ and T4 on 3+ whilst allowing full use of the high initiative of warriors to often strike first. Shields are also an excellent investment, whilst in 8th you will never be able to use them in combat a +1 boost to a 16 point model for 1 point is generally worthwhile. Since we are talking about units with maximum killing power, ideally this unit will be frenzied so either mark of Khorne or banner of rage producing 24 Ws5 S5 attacks to the front- or 13.33 dead T3 5+ save infantry.

Additional hand weapons have been a popular choice in the past and many people have these models and whilst they arenít statistically as good as halberds to the front, with the armour piercing banner they are very close behind. Against our typical T3 5+ save troops Khorne a/hw warriors with armour piercing will also kill 13.33 models. As T increases though they are slightly worse than halberds- but again not by a lot. A/hw are worse against higher armour but the armour piercing banner mitigates this issue. A/hw warriors are also generally better than halberds against flanking troops or troops that charge the rear of the unit. So not a bad option at all.

The final option for killy warriors is to go with great weapons- S6 is superior to S5 against T4 or higher units and high AS units but great weapons are more expensive and the unit will be striking last so may suffer more casualties. GW warriors are very good for long term grinding of tougher units, but ideally they should be slightly larger- perhaps 24. Again we want frenzy on this unit. Consider a dragon charging this unit, 4 models will be in contact and with support attacks and frenzy the dragon will be subject to 16 S6 attacks- between three and four wounds on a dragon which is a serious chunk out of a big lizard. Thatís twice the damage halberd warriors would do and almost 7 times the damage a/hw warriors would do. A great weapon wielding unit is very expensive though.

For all the wonderfulness of the blender units above, if a warrior unit takes casualties from shooting or magic or the shock unit is large or nasty enough (blood crushers with herald, blood knights with 4+regen or a large bretonnian bus) then a unit of 18 warriors can still be crushed in one turn on the charge since if they can reduce the warriors to one rank (or have more ranks in the case of bretonnians) steadfast wonít apply.

There are also still some infantry units in the game which can butcher their way through chaos warriors with some ease- in particular some of the elven elites. 9 wide black guard with killing blow can kill 8 warriors per turn and will be striking first. White lions 9 wide and at least 18 models will kill 11.2 warriors before the warriors get to attack and will wipe the warriors out the next round. Swordmasters 9 wide will kill 13.33 warriors per turn. Worst cast scenario would be 9 wide Har Ganeth executioners with a bsb with the ASF standard and +1A from a cauldron- with the hero with a GW they will (on average) wipe out the entire chaos warrior unit before it gets to strike (18.1 kills).

Anvil Warriors

With the greater ease of reforming in 8th it isnít unlikely to be facing 9 wide elves at some point either. For dealing with such shock troops and elites there is a second effective warrior formation which concentrates on being an anvil rather than being a blender (although it still hits pretty damn hard). This is the 5 wide Tzeentch warriors with shields unit with a 3+ armour save and 5+ ward save. I think there are two basic ways to run them:
1) The cheaper anvil- 15 strong and bearing the rapturous standard. The rapturous standard is necessary to give the unit a very good chance to hold even when butchered to the extent that it doesnít have a rank bonus for steadfast and for bretonnian charges. This unit is designed to hold against anything and will also be able to beat many units, but not necessarily elites or shock troops.
2) The solid anvil- 20 strong and bearing either the rapturous standard or (my preference at this size) the war banner. This unit aims to win combats rather than simply hold.

5 Wide denies some of the attacks of the shock and elite units noted above- only 4 bloodcrushers can get in b-t-b compared to 5 for 6 wide. Elven elites get one less model in combat. If we return to some mathshammer from earlier with the white lions and swordmasters they killed 11.2 and 13.3 of our blender warriors respectively. Against a Tzeentch anvil swordmasters will kill 6.3 warriors and will suffer 4.16 losses in return. The warriors will probably have more ranks though and maybe the warbanner (if the solid anvil) and will probably win the combat. Against white lions the Tzeentch warriors suffer 5.5 wounds (i.e. half that of our blender warriors above) and again will kill 4.16 in return and probably win with ranks and war banner.

So both blender and anvil warriors are very effective in their roles and are also generally tough against shooting and magic. Some pansy elf infantry may be able to beat certain set ups but pansy elves with T3 and a 5+ save can be killed of a lot easier than chaos warriors too. Plus warriors are core.

To return to an earlier point- remember in 8th its much easier to reform, if your warriors are faced by 80 slaves in horde formation, go wide and butcher them all the faster. If you are about to be charged by a bretonnian lance, 6 wide is of no use for taking the charge. If you are against orcs, chaos or beastmen (25mm base) you can go 7 wide for maximum attacks. Formations are not set anywhere near as much as in 7th edition.

So warriors may not RULE ALL in 8th edition but they are undoubtedly an excellent unit in almost every respect.

Chaos Marauders- 9/10 (7/10 in 7th)

Marauders in 7th typically were taken in one of two forms- as a mage bunker unit with mark of slaanesh and 20-25 strong for a decent bit of static combat resolution or as a Khornate unit often 18 (sometimes 24) strong as a cheap unit that was potentially very threatening on the charge. The former unit tended to fulfill its role quite well but was still somewhat vulnerable to shock units. The latter unit tended to get filled full of arrows, blowdarts and then charged and broken- but at least it occupied a fair bit of enemy attention for a relatively low cost.

Blender Marauders

In 8th marauders with mark of Khorne and GW/flails can potentially be a combat powerhouse. 6 wide they have 18 Ws4 S5 attacks which is a very good damage output indeed for a unit of 5 point models. They are also cheap enough that they can be taken in large enough numbers for a deep unit 5 or 6 ranks to benefit from steadfast against almost anything that charges them from the front. 30 with GW and full command is only 200 points.

There is also the potential of using the horde rule which, against your typical 5 wide 20mm unit means an extra 6 attacks. Horde is obviously more useful against wider units and suffers from the fact that for the unit to be deep enough to be steadfast we are looking at about 300 points. Still the option to go horde is still a good one and can be helpful against other horde units since marauders will hit harder than most. Also, as noted earlier, with the ease of reforming in 8th you can choose whether you want to go horde for more attacks or go deep to deny an enemy regiment the steadfast bonus to break through their line. The latter is one of the key advantages marauders have compared to warriors- a large number of ranks and a good damage potential will make it a lost easier to break enemy infantry units. What you decide to go for is going to depend on what battlefield role you plant to use them for and how much you need to bulk up your battleline. 2 Units have a lot more flexibility than one big unit but costs more.

If we return to the problem of elven elites earlier, killy marauders will generally take more casualties than killy warriors but in a large unit are more likely to have a full 2 ranks of models to fight back with. Against white lions for example you will lose 13.3 marauders and kill 7.5 in return (10 if in horde formation). With a deeper unit the marauders will hold due to steadfast (but lose frenzy) and can thwack away a second round again losing 13 and killing 5 (7.5 in horde) in return. This means you are losing every turn and against a large elite block will eventually be wiped out. However you are also killing elite 15 point models whereas your opponent is killing 5 point ones. So first turn 66 points of marauders die compared to 112.5 (150 if horde) points of elven elites. From the second round you are losing 66 points of marauders compared to 75 (112.5) points of elven elites. From this perspective things donít look as bad, and unless the elven unit is huge they will soon be losing attacks from their second row as well. The elves will win but will suffer a lot of damage and just a little further nudge will grant victory to the marauders- a chariot, a character with stream of corruption (or a killy character). Also a unit of 20 elven elites is running 330- 405 points depending on magic items.

GW or flails?

I would say units of over 25 are better off with great weapons since they have the numbers to survive a charge and can happily puree the opponent over several turns. Units of 20 or less are probably better off with flails since they are at risk of suffering casualties (from missiles magic or from a shock/elite troop charge) that will greatly reduce their ability to strike back so making use of I4 to strike first is generally more important.

Anvil Marauders

The second build for marauders, as for chaos warriors is the Tzeentch anvil. With light armour, shield and mark of Tzeentch (or just shields and mark of Tzeentch if tight for points) the unit has a 5+ armour save and a 5+ ward save against most things to the front. Combined 5 wide with 5, preferably 6 ranks deep, they are likely to hold almost anything charging from the front for a considerable length of time as long as they pass their steadfast break tests and in combat with another basic infantry unit (like empire halberdiers) they will probably win combat by a small margin. They will lose against orc boyz first round but win from the second round on, will lose against elf spearmen by a fairly small margin every turn and so on. Still this is primarily an anvil unit and can also function as a decent mage bunker since losing 6 point models in a miscast is nowhere near as bad as losing 17 point ones.

So marauders can generally fulfill the same roles that chaos warriors can and for 2/3 the price and a generally higher chance of steadfast which might make us believe that marauders are superior. Warriors, however still have several advantages over marauders:
1) They are much harder to kill. Against S3 shooting they will take less than a quarter of the wounds naked Khorne marauders will and a third of the wounds Tzeentch light armour+shield marauders will take. So statistically its more points efficient to kill marauders with S3 shooting. For S4 shooting warriors are more efficient to shoot at and for S3 armour piercing/S3 poison they are about even. In combat though not losing models can be even more important for winning the combat. A typical unit of empire halberdiers will kill 3 marauders or about 1.5 warriors so its much of a muchness. On the other hand HE spears will kill 7.5 marauders and take 7.5 casualties in return and will generally have the same or better CR (war banner). As soon as frenzied marauders lose a single combat round they will be broken soon afterwards. Chaos warriors however will only lose 2.5 models and kill 13.3 in return and will butcher the unit in short order. Marauders striking last with GW is also an issue with heavy cavalry- a bretonnian lance can inflict 5 casualties on marauders and suffer two in return and the lance may have enough ranks to prevent the marauders being steadfast meaning the marauders will probably break, even with a bsb nearby. Halberd warriors will strike first against the bretonnians killing 3, maybe reducing the attacks against them and will suffer 2 wounds in return probably resulting in a draw and the warriors defeating the bretonnians next turn.
2) They are killier- Ws5 is still better thanWs4 against a lot of things and warriors also have more attacks than a marauder unit (unless its horde in which case they are equal). Warriors do strike harder and more consistently so. Killier is also an important feature when comparing Tzeentch anvils- the warrior anvil will actually defeat most opposing units- orc boyz, saurus spears, human infantry, HE and DE spears, some elites and shock troops.
3) They can take a magic banner. There are many useful magic banners available now, banner of rage, war banner, rapturous standard, blasted standard etc. none of these are an option for marauders.
4) Warriors have base Ld8 rather than Ld7. This means when the general is not nearby warriors will pass steadfast break tests, panic tests (tzeentch and nurgle marked) and frenzy restraint tests 72% of the time rather than 58% of the time. With a bsb its 92.3% compared to 82.6%. These are substantial differences, and especially important when you want your general doing other things (like leading the cavalry on his jugger or flying around zapping things on a disk).

All in all marauders and warriors are both excellent units and having a mix of both is probably the best way to go overall. Interestingly 40 horde khorne marauders will lose convincingly to 18 frenzied warriors with halberds (who must first go 12 wide and receive the charge) and will be wiped out second combat phase without a chance to attack whereas 50 horde khorne marauders will wipe the chaos warriors out since the first turn kills by the marauders will seriously deplete the fighting potential of the warriors. Horde Khorne marauders are one scary unit if charged to the front, but ear in mind that even a unit of 30 empire halberdiers charging the flank of the unit will comfortably break it in one turn.

Speed Bump/flanking/semi threatening marauders

A final setup we could try with marauders is the speed bump. This would be a unit of 12 or 18 marauders 6 wide with flails with no marks or command (perhaps mark of slaanesh, maybe khorne if you have plenty of points to spare). These cheap 60/90 point units could potentially be a nice little flanking unit for denying combat resolution and can happily beat human infantry/goblins/gnoblars on the first turn if charging the front and will win almost every round if they get the flank. The 18 marauder unit is also a bit dangerous to smaller units of knights and monstroud infantry- 4 ogre bulls will lose one or two models before they get to strike and will probably lose the combat. Vanilla knights will lose 2 models if the marauders win the I roll off. Not the best use of marauders mentioned here, but might suit those who like to have more units on the table top.

Command Groups for Warriors and Marauders

For both warriors and marauders its now worthwhile investing in the full command group- standards give +1CR and now give up few VPs, musicians allow the fast reform and +1CR in drawn combats and are cheap. Champions are excellent when challenging monster riding characters, especially in 8th since if the rider kills the champion the dragon/griffin/whatever canít attack at all.

Kerill
11-07-2010, 09:41
Marauder Cavalry 6.5/10 (7/10 in 7th)

In many chaos lists on the internet in 7th edition the primary role of marauder cavalry was to fill up your core slots so you could load up on knights. For light cavalry with decent WS and S5 from flails they also had some danger potential as a flanking unit and were generally good at war machine and wizard hunting. Unfortunately 15 points or more per model and with T3 and a 5+ save in an army of T4 and silly saves meant that every bow, crossbow, terradon rock and generic D6/ 2D6 magic missile in the game tended to come their way and there is only so much hiding behind terrain you can do. In short they tended to die but would often force the opponent to concentrate resources on them and they would still often be able to take out a war machine or two or get a flank charge in against an unwary opponent.

In 8th edition with steadfast and step up they are no longer effective flanking units since even goblins can handily kill a couple of horsemen when charged in the flank, and will still have their full static bonus since in 8th you need two ranks to negate rank bonuses. They can still chase war machines, can wizard hunt only against armies with lower I and it seems have been greatly restricted in potential. With true line of sight it is also going to be harder to hide behind terrain.

Its not all bad though and marauder horsemen still have a few nice things going for them:
1) The re-roll of pursuit dice and swifstrider means that horsemen can be an excellent unit to run down a fleeing opponent. Their long charge range also makes them good for chasing down units that are already fleeing
2) The vanguard moves means that if the horsemen deploy wide they may well be able to get out of the forward arc of missile troops. If larger units are the trend for 8th they are going to be more likely to find a safe bit of the battlefield to start from
3) Throwing spears now have a range of 12” combined with vanguard and a 16” march move this means they can strike with throwing spears 40” from their initial deployment position. With war machines now being weaker to shooting, this means shooting war machines to death is sometimes a viable option and they can definitely make life awkward for shooting troops. Also in 7th marauders were always seriously overmatched at range by other light cavalry armed with 24” missile weapons, with 12” javelins marauder cavalry are much better equipped than before.

So I think horsemen in 8th are best with a bit of flexibility- 5 with flails, throwing spears, musician. Light armour and/or mark of slaanesh if you have the spare points.

I think trying to run a unit of 10 to break ranks is a BAD idea since even if a gnoblar sneezes in their direction they won’t be breaking ranks and make a much bigger target for opposing units.

Since fast cavalry now have ranks and can benefit from vanguard a larger unit of marauder horsemen (15-20) with light armour spears and shields led by a character is a very zippy if slightly fragile combat unit. More of a fun unit to try out than a seriously competitive option though since you can get a big unit of marauders or decent unit of chaos warriors for the same price.

Chaos Hounds 8/10 (9/10)

A tremendous unit in 7th edition, incredibly useful on the battlefield whilst never actually killing a single thing. I’ve seen a couple of places on the internet claiming that chaos hounds are now useless in 8th edition and I’d like to have a look at the reasons behind these claims:

They don't efficiently march block anymore
- true it is much harder to march block now but mine seldom survived long enough to do this anyway.

They don't negate ranks unless in units of 10
- Again true and even units of 10 are unlikely to be negating ranks much, but even in seventh hounds died so easily you were often giving up as much CR as you would get for negating the ranks and if enough died, well…
They can't hamper opponents charges as well due to changes in charge redirection.
- This is definitely true, but they still can hamper and annoy opposing units but they need to redirect earlier at a further distance from the rest of your troops.

They can no longer screen units from shooting
- I don’t think this one is particularly true. Missile troops and RBT’s very often had a nice little hill to sit on and could happily shoot over the hounds regardless. Now with TLOS and the generally low nature of hills used by most people hounds can screen units (cover save) even if the opposing unit is on a hill.

They can no longer screen units from magic
- True, but then I never found they could screen against magic much in 7th- a wizard would only need to move slightly (even within their own unit or maybe to the next unit in the battleline) to be able to get LOS to the back corner of one base in the unit the hounds were screening and then they could cast away. Not only that casters often started together with war machines or missile troops on hills and some cheeky beggars (lizards) had large target line of sight anyway.

They can panic units when they die!
- True, but they always did. Tzeentch warriors/marauders may be more popular than slaanesh at the moment but if you really want to ignore psychology you should stick with slaanesh. Also after the first turn the hounds tend to be far forward of the battle line, often far enough to avoid panic tests in other units.

They are no longer as necessary to prevent frenzy baiting by the opponent.
- This is definitely true, but you can still fail restrain tests and its better to be 100% sure than 92%

So they have definitely taken a hit but their key roles remain unaffected:
1) They are a 30 point deployment drop. This gives you a huge advantage in deployment for most scenarios. In 8th units are getting bigger at present, for WOC this is paid for by dropping 400 points of spellcasters from your list. For most armies however that weren’t dumping a huge number of points in magic offence larger units will come at the expense of how many units you have to deploy. In 7th I did a quick trawl of the first 5 pages of army lists on warseer and the average number of units to deploy at 2250 points was 8. trawling again in 8th the average number was 7 at 2250 (8 at 2500 and just 5 at 2000). Thus hounds have become even better in the deployment phase.
2) War machine hunting- having a cheap unit you could divert without wasting points to take out that spear chukker/rock lobber/RBT/etc. in the far corner was good in 7th, its just as good now and may even be better if war machines do proliferate as some believe.
3) Missile Troop hunting- never the most effective missile troop killer but with a flank charge they could comfortably break a missile unit (one of the reasons they tended to die easily) this hasn’t changed much at all in 8th.

They also still fulfil other suicidal roles on the battlefield such as releasing fanatics and rear/flank charging big beasties in a challenge with anither unit to get a couple more points of CR.

Also with the changes in US and the +1 bonus for charging cheeky units of hounds also have a chance at defeating small units of cavalry/MI if they can get them in the flank. Not going to happen often but I thought I’d mention it. Flank charge+charging bonus=+2 CR.

Finally, as with marauder horsemen they can charge troops that are already fleeing from combat.

Kerill
11-07-2010, 09:42
SPECIAL TROOPS

Chaos Knights- 8/10 (9/10 in 7th)

The favoured WOC unit in 7th edition- super hard hitting, fear causing, T4, 1+ save cavalry with mental horses for a reasonable price. For 230 points you could buy yourself a unit that could shred almost any infantry unit and break it easily on the charge.

In 8th, however, those infantry units will probably be steadfast, they will also be getting attacks back even with the front two ranks wiped out which means chaos knights are a t risk of taking casualties for a change. This means that units in 8th need to be slightly bigger than in 7th- I would say the minimum for a combat unit should be 6.

But hang on, infantry got boosted- they step up, they support, the stay steadfast, they charge much further, they can get a 6+ ward, they break ranks easily, they laugh in the face of fear tests and flanking means “nothing”. Aren’t cavalry dead?

Well, no. Take a unit of chaos knights charging a unit of 30 infantry- 12 die first turn. Second turn 10-12 and suddenly there is almost no one left to step up or support or be steadfast (no rank bonus left) its breaking time and the knights can cow choose to pursue and run them down or reform to face down the extent of the enemy line.

For the same reason flanking an enemy unit with knights is still undoubtedly worthwhile- the CR bonus is negligible, fewer step up attacks are nice, being able to ignore parry saves but being able to go down the enemy line is very useful indeed. A unit with warriors/marauders to the front and knights in the flank will suffer 25 kills and may well simply be annihilated on the spot. ANNIHILATED!

Also M7 and a 14” march is just as much better than M4 and 8” march in 8th as it was in 7th. Whilst infantry now have a greater charge range, cavalry ALSO have a greater charge range- chaos knights have an average charge of 7+ just over 8 inches. Not a certain thing anymore but if you want to take out those missile troops second round M4 infantry still doesn’t cut it. It’s also worth mentioning that cavalry don’t get stomped or thunderstomped like infantry do. Also stone throwers no longer negate armour saves and S3 allowing full armour save isn’t particularly scary. A stone thrower hit will kill 1.05 knights compared to 2 in 7th.

Chaos knights have undoubtedly got worse, and I would rank them as worse overall than warriors/marauders but I believe that they still have a definite role and place on the battlefield. Faster troops, movement and flanking is not as dead as some seem to believe, and a balanced list will still need faster elements.

Forsaken – 5/10 (5.5/10 in 7th)

Yes they have managed to get even worse. In 7th a unit of 6 forsaken could potentially charge in and wipe out the first rank of an infantry unit and maybe win on kills against static. With step up and support attacks that possibility for a unit of 6 forsaken is gone. They have two remaining roles in 8th- first the are fairly good units to run at war machines, they aren’t as fast as marauder horsemen but they are a lot less vulnerable to small arms fire. The other is for suicide attacks on units to kill wizards/bsbs. Still 90/108 points can get you a lot of other useful things- 20 marauders with GW for a start.

Chariots- 7/10 (7/10 in 7th)

Chariots have had two traditional roles. One is that a double chariot charge could break a lot of units in 7th edition. They are highly unlikely to be able to break an infantry unit in 8th although double chariots can still be a threat to cavalry and monstrous infantry. In this sense chariots have been slightly weakened. The other traditional role for chariots has been infantry support- especially against ASF infantry. Whilst units will get step up attacks against chariots they are still pretty tough with T5 and a 3+ save. If we return to some of the units that could stop warriors and marauders earlier in this tactica, a chariot charge is enough to convincingly turn the tide of battle in the favour of chaos troops. Also if more infantry becomes the rule, units with swiftstride for pursuing and fleeing are still very valuable, and for 120 points chariots are one of the cheaper options for doing so.

Also WOC are one of the few armies who get a discount for chariots for characters. Now whilst a US5 chariot isn't a great thing like it was in 7th (since there is no no US) its still not a bad place to stick a sorceror- especially if your opponent is going to be throwing hands of karkora or the like around the place.

Chosen – 8/10 (6/10 in 7th)

Chosen initially look like a sweet choice, all the benefits of chaos warriors with Ws6, a roll on the EOTG table, a champion to put gift of the gods on and a warshrine to boost them up even further. All for 3 points more than a warrior. At second glance though, due to the cost of the command group, its more like 4-5 points more expensive each. The warshrine isn’t a great combat unit either and if its main purpose is to boost the chosen that’s another 130 points added on. So you’ve probably spent 230 more points on the chosen than you would on a similar unit of warriors- that’s a unit of 36 Khorne GW marauders with FC.

Of course if everything does go well a unit with a 3+ ward save, stubborn and T5 is an absolute monster. And in 8th with the boosts to infantry movement and the reduced worry for march blocking it’s a lot more likely to be causing serious carnage on the battlefield.

Ws6 is also a little bit more useful in 8th since elven elites are one of the bigger threats to chaos warriors, Ws6 helps a fair bit there. Still against most things Ws6 is not really any better than Ws5.

Generally comments that apply to chaos warriors apply to chosen, best setup is probably halberds, shields, mark of Tzeentch (for 3+ ward) and banner of rage for a unit that does everything.

So basically it’s a risk, if you are fortunate you will have a killer unit. It might though be an overkill unit. If you stick with warriors instead you can have two combat units guaranteed on the battlefield. I prefer the latter personally, but chosen aren’t a terrible choice by any means either.

Some Maths for Chosen

A unit of chosen with favour of chaos has a 8.3% chance of getting 12 on the table first roll.

Their chance of being able to re-roll the result (via 2,3,6,7,8) is 52.78%

Since you can re-roll infinitely though your chances of getting a 12 (or the other useful bonuses of 3-6) is actually a little better now. If you go all out for the 12:

8.333%
chance of reroll, followed by 11 or 12= 4.4%
chance of re-roll, followed by a reroll, then 11/12= 2.3%
" " " followed by rerollthen 11/12= 1.2%

Means your chance of getting stubborn 4+ ward with favour is in the region of 18% if you go all out for it.


The chance of getting the somewhat ***** roll of a 9 (probably adjusted to a 10 for fear) is 11%

The very average result of a 10 has an 8.33%

Chance of getting the really useful ones (4+ward and stubborn, +1T, +1A and +1 S) is 50%.
Chance of re-rolling (value of 7 or 8) 36%
So chance of getting useful ones after multiple re-rolls is about
50+18+6+2+1= 77%

Subsequent warshrine likelihood of a good roll is slightly less since 2 and 7 can no longer be re-rolled and a lot will depend on what you currently have in effect. Still with 2 Warshrines you can expect your chosen to be boosted significantly by turn 2.

Trolls 7/10, 8.5/10 with bsb (5.5/10 in 7th)

Perhaps the biggest jump in effectiveness of any unit in the chaos army with a nearby bsb. Trolls have profited greatly from the changes to monstrous infantry- 3 attacks from the second rank, S5 stomps and with the best defence (4+regen) of the MI and MB troops available to chaos. Stupidity now grants permanent immunity to psychology which is nice and, most important of all, a bsb allows you to re-roll stupidity. Monstrous infantry (and monstrous cavalry) will also suffer less damage from a direct hit from a stone thrower since only the centre of the template causes D6 wounds now.

A unit of 6 trolls is a truly unpleasant unit to face- 120mm width isn’t too wide (less than many chaos units) and with mutant regeneration even when they suffer wounds they may not actually become weaker in combat. Trolls are efficient killing machines with a unit of 6 killing 10 T3 5+ save troops every round. They are also a credible threat to big nasties like dragons- even a star dragon will only cause 1.67 wounds to the trolls (who therefore are steadfast and have a rank bonus) whilst the trolls will inflict 2 full wounds back. Greater daemons apart from bloodthrirsters are also fair game. Trolls will lose to units such as chaos warriors and Khornate marauder hordes due to combat resolution (kills are slightly in favour of the trolls) but since 6 trolls is only 270 points this isn’t surprising.

So in trolls we have a hard hitting, tough, unit capable of having a good old smack at almost anything in the game which doesn’t have flaming attacks. Also as MI it can’t be thunderstomped by hellpit abominations or the like- unlike chaos infantry. Above all M6 is fairly speedy, eve if they don’t have swiftstrider. Unlike in 7th trolls can charge a unit on the second turn if the opponent deploys at the front of their deployment zone.

The disadvantages of this otherwise great unit are that it needs to be babysat by the general and bsb which can potentially restrict the movement of all 3. Second if the general or bsb is killed the trolls become a lot less reliable. Finally, even with the bsb the trolls can still fail their stupidity roll- once every 12 turns on average or once every two battles.

A unit of 4 trolls is not a bad unit either with a decent damage output due to the 12A and 4 autohitting stomps.

A couple of rules points here:
1) Trolls can only vomit against models in base to base contact and the whole unit must vomit. This means for trolls in two ranks it is never worth vomiting.
2) Stomp is also base to base only.

A final comment on trolls is that they are one of the best units for stopping a cannonball since in 8th if the cannonball fails to kill a MI model it is stopped there. A chaos character on a jugger, disk or a daemon prince, shaggoth or giant behind a unit of trolls will be hard to hit with a cannonball since even trolls in 1 rank have a 67% chance to stop the cannonball due to regen and 3 wounds (89% if 2 ranks of trolls). This may turn out to be very useful when running certain builds.

Chaos Ogres 7.5/10 (7/10)

In 7th chaos ogres were a decent hitty unit if equipped with the mark of Khorne and could be dangerous if they could get the drop on heavy cavalry or monsters and could shred infantry quite well. Of course if they were charged by shock troops or monsters they would be broken quite easily. Typical equipment was GW, chaos armour and often no command models.

In 8th chaos armour and GW are probably still the way to go. Mark of Khorne is perhaps less necessary now, depending on formation. Chaos ogres have received similar boosts to trolls with monstrous support and a (weaker than trolls) S4 stomp. If run in two ranks the potential of the mark of Khorne is slightly wasted since monstrous support is capped at 3 attacks per model so only the front rank will gain an extra attack. If run 4 wide like in 7th mark of Khorne is definitely worthwhile. Otherwise mark of slaanesh is attractive if you want to run them without need for bsb/general’s support and mark of nurgle if you are worried about shooting.

A standard bearer is much more viable in 8th and is generally worth taking, as is a musician. Champion is a bit more troublesome- when hunting ridden monsters or greater daemons the champion means the foe can happily charge, butcher the champion and break the ogres with very little danger. Having a champion does give you the opportunity to kill enemy heroes in a challenge and net 50vps. Personally I would save the points and wouldn’t take the champion.

Ogres are more expensive than trolls, have a less effective stomp, are more vulnerable to psychology and their benefits (standard bearer, musician, S6 GW attacks) don’t quite make up the shortfall IMO. Even with stupidity trolls are a better unit when properly babysat. That is the key issue here- if you want a unit to operate independently ogres are superior to trolls, otherwise trolls are generally superior and cheaper.

So 6 ogres with mark of slaanesh, gw, chaos armour, musician and standard- 330 points or 4 ogres with mark of khorne, standard musician (allows them to run 2*2 if space is tight)- 260 points.

Dragon Ogres- 7/10 (8/10 in 7th)

Dragon ogres have got relatively worse in 8th, mostly due to the greater improvements for ogres and trolls. The first thing to note is that dragon ogres are not MI but monstrous beasts. This means they have stomp and swift stride but do not get 3 monstrous support attacks from the second rank- only 1 attack. Monstrous beasts may also be affected by items that MI will not be (pipes of doom, flaming attacks cause a fear test for example).

Step up and support attacks mean they (like the MI units) will be taking a couple of wounds even when they charge, but with a 4+ save and W4 they can withstand a bit of punishment. They are very expensive though at 19 points per wound. Their traditional role of cavalry killers with S7 is slightly less necessary in 8th where there is less cavalry. They are also worse at shrugging off the attacks of big beasties when compared to trolls. The fact that chariots are no longer autopopped and steam tanks are T10 anyway means they have fewer specialised roles to fulfil.

Stomp means that they can handle infantry units well enough but can’t cause the same level of carnage as a 6 strong unit of trolls or ogres. On the other hand, Ws4 is a very useful weapon skill to have and they will often be hit less than trolls/ogres OR will be hitting more often.

I’m also thinking that in 8th a/hw may in fact be a worthwhile option whereas in 7th GW were always better. A/hw are cheaper and the extra attacks are useful, also S5 is now the key strength to have in 8th edition whereas 6/7 was in 7th. The reason for this is the hw+sh bonus- in 7th you needed S6 to negate the most common armour save. In 8th S5 is all you need. 4 Dragon ogres with additional weapons comes in at 292 points and puts out 16 Ws4 S5 attacks and 4 autohitting S5 stomps. Against Ws3 infantry 4 dragon ogres has a greater killing potential than 6 trolls or 6 ogres in 3*2 formation. This does make them weaker against monsters though. With Ld8 and will of chaos dragon ogres can also be used independently unlike trolls.

Overall Dragon Ogres haven’t actually got worse as a unit, but they are now lower down the pecking order of chaos units. Whereas before they were perhaps the second best unit, they are now much further down the list. Not a bad choice by any means though and definitely worth considering if you don’t have any swiftstriding units in your army.

Kerill
11-07-2010, 09:42
RARE UNITS

Chaos Spawn- 5.5/10 (6/10 in 7th)

Chaos spawn have definitely got worse in 8th and they weren’t exactly the best choice in 7th either. Step up and support attacks mean that spawn are far more likely to die and die more swiftly in 8th and may not even hold up the enemy unit at all. At the same time they can potentially hold up even hordes of dross troops (skavenslaves, goblins, gnoblars) for a couple of phases and if they do hold up a unit it will probably be a bigger unit than in 7th.

They also function as fairly cheap deployment drops but generally hounds are better since they are cheaper and generally a bit more useful. Buying a spawn or two isn’t the end of the day and occasionally they may surprise you. Also they don’t take up a rare slot any more.

Chaos Warshrine- 6/10 (6/10 in 7th)

Warshrines are big, tough and hard to kill but they are also slow and have the hitting power of less than 2 chaos warriors. They struggle to beat anything in combat and whilst they can potentially support an infantry unit in a minor way their main use is in granting bonuses via eye of the gods- especially for chosen.

Warshrines are again a bit of a gamble whether or not you will get a useful bonus or not. Chosen with favour of the gods are more likely to get a good bonus and in 8th stupidity is not such a serious problem if you do roll it. In 8th warshrines also don’t have to worry about being outnumbered so for CR they have 1 less static CR to face. Still I’m not particularly a fan of spending 130 points on a gamble as noted in the chosen section above although others will undoubtedly disagree.

Thunderstomp would have made it a lot more useful

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth- 6/10 (5.5/10 in 7th)

The shaggoth has had a mixture of buffs and nerfs. S6 thunderstomp and the disappearance of +1CR for outnumber has meant the shaggoth can now actually beat an infantry unit even from the front with an average of 6 kills per turn. The shaggoth can still beat the living daylights of a unit of cavalry as well. The change in the large target rules means that the shaggoth is generally less vulnerable to missile fire (although it is harder to hide behind terrain with TLOS).

On the other hand stone throwers are more accurate now (cannons were always fairly accurate IMO) meaning more danger although you can try the troll screen first turn against cannons at least. A key issue is that shaggoths can no longer break ranks, taking away one of the main benefits of using a shaggoth in 7th edition. Terror is also weaker now so the shaggoth is also less useful as a terror bomber.

Overall I think the shaggoth is slightly improved but again it’s a small improvement in a list with much greater improvements in other units. GW is still the best option for flexibility and +1A isn’t much of an improvement on 5 attacks and 3.5 thunderstomps. And the shaggoth still doesn’t compare to a hydra or hellpit abomination but that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

Chaos Giant- 6.5/10 (6/10 in 7th)

Well, quite a lot of what applies to the shaggoth applies here too. Giants have traditionally been a bit of a scary unit- yell and bawl being a potential equaliser against any unit in the game and pick up and squash can kill anything. No large target status is a bigger boost for the giant since, unlike the shaggoth, it has no armour at all to speak of. Steadfast has taken the edge off the threat of yell and bawl breaking an infantry unit but cavalry still need to beware and thunderstomp can help put down a lot of damage.

Step up and support attacks are more of a risk to the giant than to the shaggoth though with no armour save to speak of but T5 and 6 wounds is still a fair bit to get through. Stubborn Ld10 and ITP are always handy as well.

As to marks, unmarked of course is the cheapest option and not at all a bad one. The ASF slaanesh giant is nice although in some ways striking first is less important with step up and support attacks.

Nurgle is also a nice mark since you can now have a ninja giant avoiding arrows and bolt throwers and also makes him last a bit longer against Ws4 units.

Giants will always attract attention, often more than they deserve due to their random nature, and the extra points saved from spending less on characters in 8th means that you can potentially take one and still have a solid group of battle units.

Hellcannon- 9/10 (6.5/10 in 7th)

Ah the hellcannon. I found them usesful support monster for my warrior block in 7th but they still weren’t anything to write home about and were stuck with fairly low movement and being caught between two roles, neither of which they excelled at.

I think hellcannons have been given several buffs in 8th edition and are now actually a good choice first of all for shooting:

i) No guessing ranges means they are a lot more accurate (especially for me).
ii) No partials means a lot more hits. Twenty one models on a 20mm base (17 kills if T3 and armour save 5+ or worse) or sixteen on 25mm base (13 kills), five on cavalry bases (2 kills on 1+ save T3 cavalry).

Second in combat:

iii) There is no outnumber anymore which means opposing units no longer have the +1CR over the hellcannon the traditionally had.
iv) They now get D6 extra stomp attacks meaning they can potentially kill enough to win the occasional combat instead of just being a tarpit all the time. Theoryhammering the hellcannon and crew can kill 6 Ws3 or lower dross infantry or 1.7 T3 1+ save knights.
v) The crew can no longer be targeted for easy CR and no longer offer up half VPs.
vi) Terror is still useful, especially if pandemonium goes off.
vii) The cannon itself now has sort of three bonus wounds in the form of the crewmembers since any wounds are transferred to them on a 5/6.

Finally in general:

viii) With the bsb allowing re-rolls of Ld tests rampage is now going to be passed a lot more often meaning they are more easily controlled.
ix) In 8th huge units of dross troops (slaves, goblins, zombies etc.) can potentially tarpit even super elite units like warriors for a long time for far fewer points. Having something that can kill a mass of them before combat starts is very useful to ensure they break. Its also great for wiping out elven elites that can potentially cause serious problems for warrior and marauder units.
x) Despite claims of infantry hammer I think in many ways big beasties have actually got more threatening, especially to elites. An extra 3.5 auto hitting S6-8 hits hurts a lot and having something S10 causing D6 wounds is nice, even if it only helps restrict their movement. A dragon for example will kill 6 Halberd wielding chaos warriors per turn and the rider probably 1 more and 1 or 2 more with its breath attack.. If its at full health it will eat the whole unit. If it has lost a couple of wounds it can’t risk a frontal charge.
xi) Two hellcannons actually constitutes a half-decent shooting phase with the new template rules (rather than a novelty) and combined with strong magic means your army doesn’t have to belt across the table full pelt every time, more tactical options- which Tzeentch likes.
xii) The new M&H rule says Handlers are "generally ignored", their exact position is irrelevant (they are moved out of the way if they block movement or LoS) and that the monster is the "extent of the unit". Which means the hellcannon now uses M6 instead of the M3 of the chaos dwarves..
xiii) Small buff in that large targets are no longer +1 for shooting so the hellcannon is now a little bit more resilient to shooting- bolt throwers in particular.

There are two new downsides though:

i) Step up and support attacks mean the hellcannon is going to get hit and maybe wounded more in combat, especially by poisoned attacks and GW (which will be more popular).
ii) The miscast table now is so nasty that if you misfire and roll that result its going to seriously hurt any unit the mage is with- and chaos warriors cost a lot more than empire swordsmen.


A great unit in 8th, I'll be using two.

Kerill
11-07-2010, 09:43
Chaos Gifts and Magic Items

Due to forum rules I wonít be posting the points values as such but will be using the currency of GW marauders 

Common magic items:

Sword of bloodshed- for the cost of 15 marauders with GW +3 attacks isnít bad to have a khornate or fighty lord- especially a Khorne lord to really mow skulls for the blood throne.
The Screaming blade (2 marauders) is a nice and cheap magic item if you have the spare points to make a unit immune to fear and force your opponent to make fear checks.
Warrior bane (1 marauder) is an even cheaper sword which is a bit like a poor manís glaive of putrefaction. Unlike the glaive, however, its effects take place immediately meaning it may well kick in before the foe get a chance to attack. Combined with a potion of strength on a simple exalted on foot a star dragon will lose two attacks before it gets a chance to strike, and this combo leaves 25 points of magic items allowance free- a nice amount to afford some protective gear (dragon helm and stone of luck, collar of khorne etc.) Warrior bane and the biting blade are also good options to stick on a sorcerer lord if you have a few spare points and want something that can harm ethereals or if you plan to buff the sorcerorís prowess through occams mindrazor. Sword of might is solid as always.

Common magic armour has some lovely items
Tricksters helm (10 marauders) is very good on a chaos lord due to T5
Helm of discord (6 marauders) is very nice giving a decent defensive effect and +1 AS although 30 points is a bit awkward since it prevents some nice combos. Potentially goes well with doom and darkness, pandemonium and doom totem.
Enchanted shield (3 marauders) is as great on a sorcerer in 8th as it was in 7th. Note you can no longer get hw+sh bonus when using a magic shield in 8th.
The dragonhelm (2 marauders) giving +1 armour save and a 2+ ward against fire at a bargain price.
Charmed shield (1 marauder) As cheap as buying a mundane shield on an exalted, ignoring the first hit on a 2+ is potentially tremendous since it doesnít specify in combat meaning the first cannonball hit is ignored as well. Nice and due to its cost will be common on sorcerer lords.

Talismans is perhaps the best section of new items
Talisman of preservation (9 marauders) means we finally have a true 4+ ward save available to us. Few Tzeentch players will be able to resist a 3+ ward but itís the best defensive item chaos has for almost anyone.
Dawnstone (5 marauders) re-roll failed armour saves- in an army where 1+ save is easy to get this is a tremendously useful item. A jugger rider could carry this and a common GW and be an absolute terror in combat.
Luckstone (1 marauder) 1 one time re-roll of your armour save, and a great bargain price.

Arcane items donít impress as much since they are under pressure from some great WOC arcane items and fewer slots. Feedback scroll is perhaps the best answer to Teclis or book of hoeth mages though. Some players seem to be throwing a ton of dice at a particular spell in this edition (I wonít) in which case it isnít bad. Not good enough against all comers to get into the army though. Forbidden rod (7 marauders) isnít a bad item if you are a bit of a gambler and have a good ward save for your caster.

Enchanted items has a few of note- crown of command (7 marauders) isnít a bad item to grant stubborn on a lord level character with a good save to tie up and cut down enemy units. Could also be used to give a unit stubborn
Potion of Strength (4 marauders) is a great item, especially when combined with glaive of putrefaction, whip of pleasure or warrior bane. +3S greatly increased the efficiency of these weapons against big beasties. Also nice with the +3A sword for when you are cavalry/monster hunting. Potion of Strength (4 marauders) +3T is a nice defensive boost. Potion of foolhardiness is ok if you have 5 points to spare on a mobile character and potion of speed is nice against elves of all kinds to strike first or deny ASF re-rolls. Although the potions are great, they must be drunk at the start of the TURN, meaning if you drink a potion of strength and charge that dragon rider, they may well have the good sense to flee and your +3S may well be wasted. Same with the potion of toughness- your opponent may simply charge a different target or refuse a challenge. So the potions are great but do have a downside.
The ironcurse icon (1 marauder). A 6+ ward (5+ for Tzeentch) ward for the character AND unit is very nice for the points.

Magic banners:
War banner is great as always on a larger anvil. The banner of swiftness (3 marauders) +1M isnít bad for a cheap price if not essential. Lichebone Pennant (3 marauders) Mr1 isnít as good as in last edition but stacks nicely with the Tzeentch mark. Standard of discipline (3 marauders) +1Ld is nice, although RAW if your general is in the unit he canít grant his leadership bubble so no Ld9 sorcerors or exalted generals still nice for Ld9 restraint tests for frenzy or for Ld9 steadfast. Banner of eternal flame (2 marauders) grants flaming attacks but RAW doesnít grant magic attacks. Very useful against some of the more overpowered monsters in the game. Good on a unit of warriors, but also good on a unit of 6 Khorne knights for hydra and hellpit abomination hunting. Khorne knights are also a safer bet against the hydra since they canít be thunderstomped and 1+ save will shrug of hydra breath (especially since they will strike first and take 3 or 4 wounds off it). I also like it on knights since against high elves they are more likely to be able to avoid dragon princes, small issue but there you go. If you were going to take Khorne knights anyway you would probably take a standard in 8th as well, so a few more points for this seems a bargain.

WOC Gifts and Items

Tendrils of Tzeentch- still great and still the primary reason for running a daemon prince.
Stream of corruption- 7 S3 autohits in one combat is a wonderful ability. Will probably never be used as a shooting template but this allows a sorcerer on disk to win convincingly against missile units and also against cavalry if charging to the flank. For a model in a unit its also a great way to get overkill against an enemy champion and can serve as a quasi defensive gift for a bsb on foot by killing the challenger before they can strike.
Third Eye of Tzeentch- Has gone from being a bit pointless to being a very good gift indeed- with the more powerful rulebook lores and reduced number of spellcasters this is a great gift. Some people are putting this on a level 4, I prefer it on your back-up caster since they are less likely to have good spells and it means even if your level 4 is killed you can still make use of all the PD in your magic phase.
Soporific Musk- Slightly better this edition makes it easier to run down the foe. Nice but hardly essential
Conjoined Homunculus- Big boost to the homunculus, stupidity being less of an issue with bsb greatly reduces a caveat to its use. With the new rule of being unable to cast if you fail the casting roll, anything which allows you to add to the casting roll is gold and key in establishing magical dominance relative to other armies.
Bloodcurdling roar- always a useful gift although heavy cavalry may be fewer war machines are now fair game and the roar is also handy for knocking a wound off the new super steam tank.
Fury of the blood good- a 2+ ward save against magic is handy for the DP, not taking magic items means its not so much use elsewhere although a khorne exalted might consider it.
Glaive of putrefaction is still a nice weapon, and even better with a potion of strength. In 8th whip of subversion is also worth a look in, with striking at I and high initiative you can potentially turn an enemy character against their unit. You can also easily turn a dragon or other big beastie against its rider which is a nasty shock for the enemy. In this manner it also acts as a defensive item since if you inflict a wound you wonít be getting attacked. Not worthy of consideration in 7th edition I think its worth a look in 8th.
Armour of Damnation- not bad in 7th, Iíd rather have a 4+ ward in 7th.
Crimson armour of Dargan- for jugger mounted heroes (suffering from no LOS roll in 8th) this combined with the blasted banner on the unit is the best defence against war machines. If no blasted banner then a 4+ ward is generally superior overall, although a chaos lord can consider the crimson armour and the ironcurse icon.
Armour of morrslieb- wasnít great in 7th, only if you want a second character with a 4+ ward.
Bronze armour of Zhrakk- never bad for 15 points, and popular on a bsb, but there are other options I prefer this edition since some of the common armours are pretty good.
The Black Tongue- With the nastier miscast table in 8th and the fact that half wounds no longer gives half vps. At the same time 50 points isnít cheap add that to losing a wound, the fact that your opponent needs to fail to cast (and preferably early in the game in an edition where wizards will be trying much harder to cast successfully) and its far from certain you will make your points back. Nice and fluffy in a Khorne list though.
Collar of Khorne- Always a good item and somewhat underpriced, Mr2 is decent (best with Tzeentch) and this is one of the best protective items for a bsb against death lore and nurgle snipers.
Golden eye- same role in 8th as 7th on a disk/slaanesh steed exalted/sorceror with points free for the book of secrets or other items.
Necrotic Phylactery- In 8th I think lore of death is very dangerous to expensive chaos characters- and this grants complete immunity. Immunity to poison attacks is a minor secondary benefit.
Bloodskull Pendant- Nerfed by the FAQ, a favourite item of mine in 7th and my sorcerer lord always had it. Now with step up, no hw+sh with enchanted shield and a nastier miscast chart it doesnít seem such a good idea for my most important model. Its still viable for a level 2 sorceror though- especially now that there is a 5 point shield to go with it for a boosted save and a 2+ to ignore the first hit.
Book of secrets- definitely nerfed by the FAQ but still an excellent item for an exalted nonetheless.
Helm of many eyes has got even better due to the bsb re-roll for stupidity and, indeed, seems the perfect item to put on a fighty bsb- helps with defence and allows re-rolls to hit.
Blood of Tzeentch- this just got an awful lot better, and with picking spells when rolling doubles giving you (by my reckoning) an 87% chance of getting gateway or the spell you most want spell familiar is no longer as necessary. This is IMO the default first item pick for a level 4 sorceror. You can avoid miscasts and boost failed casting rolls when needed. Golden.
Power familiar- absolutely necessary in a magic heavy list. An extra PD is worth even more in 8th than it was in 7th. In 7th it was a 50% chance to cast flickering fire, now itís a 50% chance to cast treason of Tzeentch or 67% chance of pandemonium.
Spell familiar and warrior familiar are still good items but with far greater pressure on arcane item slots, I can see them being a lot less popular in 8th.

Infernal Puppet.

With the nastier miscast table in 8th, some are saying that the puppet is even more vital now. In 7th I took it always but, and this may be controversial, I donít think Iíll ever bother with it in 8th and these are the reasons:
1) On the new miscast table its possible that at both ends the puppet can't even change the result anyway
2) Its very difficult for the mage to die from the miscast result.
3) Due to the S10 hits my sorceror lord will be on a disk with a 3+ ward save so the scariest bit about the miscast table is losing the power dice.
4) With homunculus and blood of Tzeentch I won't ever be casting spells on more than 3 dice compared to 4/5 for gateway last edition. 3 Dice gateway on a level 4 with homunculus goes through something like 80% of the time, even higher with blood of Tzeentch
5) I have fewer mages now anyway (Sorc lord and bsb)and blood of Tzeentch and power familiar are more important to the magic phase. This is perhaps the most important reason- I simply wonít have enough casters to include a third arcane item.
6) All the miscasts are about equally nasty IMO from the perspective of what I would want my opponent to suffer. Large S10 template is nasty but I think most mages will be taking steps to prevent miscasts/to be in the corner of a cheap bunker or line of missile troops. Even against lizards, if the slann is with temple guard then wiping them out would be nice but even if they rolled the best result and lost D3 levels I would be happy with how much it nerfed his magic phase. Also the truly nasty ones are gone. There is no longer "death" (not on 1/3 chance like now) at the bottom end of the table. Nor is there a "free gateway" result for 5-6 anymore.
7) Equally, unlike 7th there are no ďsafeĒ results to modify the result to like 7 and, to some extent 8-9, 12 and, against armies with poor magic, 5-6.

Prevention is better than cure in my opinion, although if you have your sorcerer lord in an expensive unit and you have the arcan item slot then puppet would probably be my third choice- its still a great item but not all lists will have room for it.

For the reasons above I also donít particularly rate the puppet+black tongue combo that much since it is much harder to kill the enemy mage now and thatís 85 points of item allowance to do it.

For magic banners, banner of rage, blasted standard and rapturous banner are all still excellent standards.

Characters in 8th

Iím running out of space here but let me just say that the trend of running a level 4 sorceror as the only lord choice in 7th is still the most effective choice IMO. Daemon princes with tendrils are still good and Tzeentch is no longer the only viable lore. You can also use the trick with trolls or dragon ogres to stop cannon balls picking him off first turn.

Chaos lords are still overpriced for what they do although a Tzeentch chaos lord on a disk is zippy and can multi-task fairly well.

The most vital model in the army now is probably the bsb- they make a huge difference to so many things, and even more so in other armies which donít have will of chaos or lack the killing power of chaos troops and thus need steadfast more. Hunting the bsb will be a major consideration in 8th edition, especially for armies that run cheap horde units to tie up the foe.

Magic in 8th

WOC in 8th edition are not as powerful in the magic phase relative to 7th edition, but are still on the upper tier of magic. The ultimate magic phase in 8th belongs to Teclis with gimp backup, backed by the banner of sorcery with an average of 11.33 PD to play with every magic phase with IF most of the time and ignoring most miscasts. After that we have Lizardmen, High Elves without Teclis, daemons of chaos, dark elves with dagger, VC and then WOC. At least that is how I see the order when using the rulebook lores.

In 7th we had lores considerably more powerful than anyone elseís, now all lores are a lot more powerful potentially. Also compared to other armies in 8th we have 1 item which adds PD, 1 item which adds +D3 and two items which allows re-rolls. Not bad at all, but not the best either.

In 8th, however, we do have perhaps the most cost effective lores for what they do, and this is quite key in giving us a further leg up, Rolling 5/6 dice and adding a +4 for your wizard lord is nowhere near as effective as casting 3 or 4 separate spells and adding your level. Especially if your opponent doesnít have a mage lord, but even if they do they canít afford to risk failing a dispel roll. The rulebook lores are good, and fine on a secondary caster perhaps but the chaos lores are definitely still effective. Lets compare a few spells:
Ecstatic seizures- 24Ē range, all models take T test or suffer a wound (generally die) with no saving throw. Difficulty 12
Dwellers below (24Ē range) all models take a S test or die with no saving throw. Difficulty 21
Buboes- 24Ē range, model take 1 wound with no armour save. Difficulty 5+
Spirirt leech (24Ē range)- compare Ld and roll a D6, suffer wounds for the difference. On average worse against Ld8 models than buboes, same against Ld7 but with a greater potential overall. 10+ to cast.
Similar spells, (similar ranges where possible) but notice the difference in difficulties?

Of course the new lores have some wonderful unique spells but then so do WOC- Pandemonium? Titillating delusions?

Rolling fewer dice at spells does mean a greater chance of failing to cast the spell when the dice are against you, and this is where blood of tzeentch and conjoined homunculus (and tendrils) are key in reducing that risk. It also means it is definitely worth having a backup caster, maybe with third eye just in case. But most armies canít modify their dispels in this manner which means they will have to err even more on the side of caution when dispelling.

So your opponent may blow his load to get that 21+ spell cast IF and suffer a miscast whereas we can throw spell after spell with little chance of miscast including spells that are equally game breaking. 8Pd used this way in 8th can have as many spells cast as you could in 7th.

Magic in 8th gives fairly diminished returns for more than two casters IMO and unless you really want a particular item or setup, 2 casters is probably going to be the most efficient use.

Tzeentch is as good as always as a lore and changes to RIP have made pandemonium even better.

Slaanesh has got better in 8th and ecstatic seizures may often be a more powerful damage spell than gateway, although it lacks the flexibility of gateway. Titillating delusions is still a game winner.

Nurgle is the weakest of the chaos lores now, although plague squall is very good against the new steam tank. Rot glorious rot will generally be weaker in 7th although it may turn out to be pretty good against gunlines.

A final comment on magic- in 7th gateway was the great potential equaliser for deathstar units of doom, now there are a lot more spells that can severely hurt a deathstar so eggs in one basket is probably less of a good idea in 8th in general. Consider this before sticking all your characters in that unit of chosen.

Marks and mono themes

Khorne and Tzeentch have appeared a lot in this overview for ideal marks for units, but this doesnít mean that slaanesh and nurgle have suddenly become useless. For warrior builds the banner of rage on slaanesh (purely for theme)/nurgle is better than mark of Khorne for blender warriors. Nurgle anvils may not have the 5+ ward for anvil warriors but they do have -1 to hit with shooting and many troops striking on 5s instead of 4ís so are still very effective. Slaanesh is still a cheap mark that allows you to ignore psychology. Whilst terror is weaker, fear autobreak is gone and the bsb allows re-rolls remember that panic is now probably worse. Will of chaos allowed re-rolls to psychology anyway and yet slaanesh was still the most popular mark. Make no mistake, psychology has not gone away and Ld7/8 is not that good.

For marauders, nurgle and slaanesh canít compare to khorne for killiness but can still function as fine anvil units- you can rely on warriors and other units for your killing.

Mono Khorne is still not the best choice but now you are going to have a lot more dispel dice so at least you can dispel something, in many ways its more effective in 8th than 7th.

I was going to give some character setup 20,000 character limit reached :(

Morthak
11-07-2010, 12:49
Good work Kerill! You have a good insight in the WoC units, and it's great you share them with us.

One thing to note, while hitty marauders and anvil warriors are great and viable options, I think they work better the other way round. Simply because warriors are made for killing, and have a good defence to start with.
As Marauders are better for large numbers, and so steadfast is great for them. But going for the kill might not be as good for them as the Tzeentch bunker. Steadfast relies on the preservation of ranks, while the Khornish axemen might dwindle too fast in numbers. Steadfast isn't that important for them anyway. Since when they need to use Steadfast, they already lose frenzy.

Morthak

Latro_
11-07-2010, 14:25
After watching various games, seems to me all you need are warriors with khorne or tzeentch and its more or less autowin.

Your pale companion
11-07-2010, 15:43
MoT gives 5+ ward now?
I haven't read the new book, where exactly is this stated?

Latro_
11-07-2010, 15:50
HW+shield = 6+ ward
MoT +1 Ward

So common magic item say armour of destiny (4+ ward) oh look now a 3+ ward lol.

Expect to see loads of WoC armies coming out of the woodwork

teleologica
11-07-2010, 16:43
Great stuff Kerill, lots of very good analysis there. I suspect this will develop as we all get some more games in, but nonetheless it's a very useful start.

Just couple of points to make, not to disagree with your conclusions but worth thinking about (and in no particular order).

1. Same Initiative is not rolled off - the units strike simultaneously.

2. Khorne not giving frenzy to mounts. I think this one is open to debate. The wording in the army book is that the model gets frenzy. Under the rules for cavalry it clearly discusses the different 'elements' (ie rider and mount) of the single model. I'm not absolutely certain either way, but it's arguable that both get the extra attack.

3. Miscasts are appallingly destructive. I really think that the puppet is an autoinclude now. Given this, I really think considering a L4 plus a L1/2 or two is worthwhile, not for cating/dispelling as such, but for the items allowance.

4. Monstrous Beasts and supporting attacks. I'm reserving judgement on DOs until the errata. Do they get it per the summary at the end of the book, or not per the unit type entry? ATM I'd say not, and if they don't, I'd keep these guys down at 6/10, stay on the shelf. (And I own 16, used them in a Throgg MoC list in 7th).

Zangor
11-07-2010, 17:35
Miscasts are appallingly destructive. I really think that the puppet is an autoinclude now. Given this, I really think considering a L4 plus a L1/2 or two is worthwhile, not for cating/dispelling as such, but for the items allowance.

I do agree on the puppet if you field more then one caster, but im planning on only fielding a lvl 4. My thoughts was that blood of tzeentch would be better since it enables me to completely avoid rolling on the miscast table.

Of course it dosnt provide any power over my opponents casters, but it gives a better protection for the character thats holding it.

CmdrLaw
11-07-2010, 18:16
The Errata made no changes to the blood of tzeentch....so this means you can still reroll any dice as long as it isn't a 1...so rerolling 6's is now fine..bloody useful.

Unless that was an oversight by GW.

Kerill
11-07-2010, 18:35
Great stuff Kerill, lots of very good analysis there. I suspect this will develop as we all get some more games in, but nonetheless it's a very useful start.

Just couple of points to make, not to disagree with your conclusions but worth thinking about (and in no particular order).

1. Same Initiative is not rolled off - the units strike simultaneously.

2. Khorne not giving frenzy to mounts. I think this one is open to debate. The wording in the army book is that the model gets frenzy. Under the rules for cavalry it clearly discusses the different 'elements' (ie rider and mount) of the single model. I'm not absolutely certain either way, but it's arguable that both get the extra attack.

3. Miscasts are appallingly destructive. I really think that the puppet is an autoinclude now. Given this, I really think considering a L4 plus a L1/2 or two is worthwhile, not for cating/dispelling as such, but for the items allowance.

4. Monstrous Beasts and supporting attacks. I'm reserving judgement on DOs until the errata. Do they get it per the summary at the end of the book, or not per the unit type entry? ATM I'd say not, and if they don't, I'd keep these guys down at 6/10, stay on the shelf. (And I own 16, used them in a Throgg MoC list in 7th).

Thanks mate, good point in the initiative, I'll update that tomorrow (world cup final about to start :-)

I'm fairly confident (famous last words) that Khorne won't give frenzy to mounts but the banner of rage will since it affects the whole unit rather than just the riders.

@Morthak, thanks.

Hopefully this will help for new chaos players and give a basis for discussion of the different parts of the army (at the end of the day this is all simply my opinion) and doubtless as the edition develops assumptions and ideas of best usage will change. I'll try to finish the last part by tomorrow night.

Cartoon
11-07-2010, 19:38
Outstanding work Kerill, thank you very much! That was very informative and really helped me narrow down the direction I want to take my army. It's nice to see that the hellcannon can give us some much needed range support. Granted it's not cheap but anything that helps me thin down units of HE elites is aces in my book. With all the asf re-rolling that HE can do my chosen were starting to get a tad nervous having to deal with an 18 guy strong unit. Blowing up some of them before hand seems like a good tactic.

As far as chosen are concerned, I've had some success using them as the focal point of my battle line. I find that the bonus roll can really go a long way into making the unit a beast even if it is pretty expensive. A unit of 18 chosen with MoT, full command with FotG and a +1 Str roll can be difficult to contend with. They're not quite as nasty as say Black Guard but they get the job done. The nice thing with chosen is that it's not necessary to take halberds to get Str 5 so you can still get the 5+ ward and dish out some painful attacks.

As for WoC on the whole, I think this edition has afforded us a variety of tactical options. We have different styles of infantry, almost all of which are viable choices. For cheap horde style units we have marauders which will be great for when you need a unit that can soak up casualties but are still cheap enough to be fielded in large numbers.

Our warriors and chosen are there for when you need the high AS and Str to bring the pain, and ogres and trolls for everything else in between. WoC might not be the absolute top tier of armies out there, but I feel reasonably confident we can go toe to toe with almost anything out there and have a fighting chance.

cortez555
11-07-2010, 19:46
Is there anyone that takes MoN on warriors, i never really see it pop up in most lists, is MoT just the better option?

Poseidal
11-07-2010, 20:37
The official "Tactica: Warriors of chaos (7th)" approved 8th ed thread.

Finally.

Any opinions on banners and command? The move through all terrain banner, good for knight? Full command still useless on knights?

The +1 Leadership but no General one is interesting for me, as I run a Sorcerer Lord (leaving me with no points for a Chaos Lord). This means the unit I give this to is effectively higher leadership than the rest of the army (bar the Hellcannon :D)

I'm thinking about the AP one, but it's really pricy and we have the banner of rage available.

CmdrLaw
11-07-2010, 20:38
Well I had my Warriors painted nurgle style so will give them MoN again, but swaping HW for halberds.

Mostly because now you can't use both ward and regenerate; where I try to get regen on my warriors the ward save is no use anyway.

Angelust
11-07-2010, 21:08
Great write up Kerill! Just a note on the magic lores: You copy-pasted the lore of death and every lore says it's a character sniping lore.

I didn't realize all of the benefits of the Hellcannon this edition. I need to get at least one. Pricing always prevented me from getting one in the past, but it seems like Chaos finally has a non-magic ranged option.

Also, S10 d6 wounds can be really nice against Stegadons and the like.

Cartoon
11-07-2010, 21:22
MoN is probably the best choice for any unit that is going to have the banner of rage. If I'm not mistaken, frenzied troops don't get the +6 ward save for the parry bonus (please correct me if I'm wrong) so it would be a good idea to maximize their protection against shooting by taking the MoN. Large blocks of warriors could also benefit from MoN, although statistically I thought that the +6 ward save offers more protection (again I could wrong). This edition looks like MoK and MoT are the premier marks, which is a tragedy since I love Slaanesh and have tons of models painted purple.

Zangor
11-07-2010, 21:26
Exelent work Kerill, very very usefull and well written and thanks for sharing your views :-) it was rather helpful to be honest. I know for sure now that i have to field hellcannonS and not just hellcannoN.

One thing i thought about regarding the issue on which item to chose, the puppet or blood of tzeentch, is that if you field a hellcannon the blood of tz cant protect your caster from the miscast table, since a misfire can potentially force all casters to roll a miscast. This may not happen very often, but some of us are going to field more then one hellcanon making it more likely to happen. So for all the hellcannon-lovers the puppet may be the best choice after all.

GenerationTerrorist
11-07-2010, 22:41
Fantastic work, Kerill. I agree with pretty much what you have said with regards each unit.

I am having my first 8th edition game this week, against an Empire army, and fully intend to try out my perception of a Tzeentchian deathstar unit.....23 MoT Chosen with Additional Hand Weapons, Full Command (Favour of the Gods and either Rapturous Standard or Rage Banner), led by my Sorcerer Lvl4 MoT with Blood of Tzeentch, Talisman of Preservation, Ironcurse Icon and Bronze Armour.

Massivley expensive unit, that I'd only use in 3000pts+ games, but I think it could be seriously nasty against anything remotely Horde-like.

What are people's thoughts about putting a MoT BSB on a Disk for that extra bit of mobile LD support? I'll give him the Golden Eye of Tzeentch and the Book of Secrets.

CmdrLaw
12-07-2010, 00:18
I take it your going to be praying for the Ward save on the eye of the gods then?

Witchblade
12-07-2010, 00:42
My standard lord:
Sorcerer lord, L4, MoT, Disc, Third Eye of Tz, Stream of Corruption, Blood of Tz, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation.

1+/3++; miscast protection from reroll; 2d6 s3 AP breathweapon to take out a soft unit like a warmachine; ability to steal spells.

Optional wizard sidekick to guarantee gateway:
Sorcerer, L2, MoT, Disc, Golden Eye of Tz, Power Familiar (or a scroll), Conjoined Humunculus.

+1 PD; 3+/3++ against missiles; ability to team up together.

Problem is, you really want Gateway on the sorcerer lord...

BSB build:
Exalted, MoT, shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone(, Soporific Musk).

Inexpensive; 2+ rerollable/5++ (parry); practically immune to fire. Tough as nails against anything with S<5. Avoid monsters and characters you need to challenge. Put him in a decently sized Warrior unit.

This one's tricky, because a mount makes him lose LoS! and parry, and it displaces another warrior, so I don't know if that's worth it. Giving the warrior unit the Blasted Standard would mitigate the exposure to warmachines, but it may still not be enough. I think it's absolutely vital that the BSB is geared defensively, because he's going to get targeted a lot, but if you want a more offensive BSB, you can try:

Exalted, MoK, Jugger, Flail, Helm of Many Eyes, Dawnstone.

1+ rerollable AS; 5A S7 rerolling to hit; jugger.

Urdokadin
12-07-2010, 07:49
I just had a very, very interesting idea pop into my head about the mark of nurgle. '

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4812491#post4812491

danny-d-b
12-07-2010, 08:13
I just had a very, very interesting idea pop into my head about the mark of nurgle. '

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4812491#post4812491

its an intresting point- and considering now that nurgle is pritty weak anyway it might give it an advatage

I'm still not sure weather I'm going to be going back to empire for the 8th, or keeping with WOC- considering I've not seen the book yet I think my list is going to be something allong the lines of

level 4 with power familiar and homulus lore of fire
level 2 with puppet lore of fire
BSB with 4+ ward save item and ignore 1st hit shield

50 marrauders with flails and full command (possibly khone)
25 marrauders with hw/shield/light amour and full command (possibly nurgle/tzentch depending on fluff)
5 marrauder horsmen with thorwing axes
5 dogs
(hopefully that should be enough- not worked on maths yet)

6 ogers with great weapons and musician
5 knights of nurgle with rage banner

Lungboy
12-07-2010, 08:26
Many thanks for the unit write-ups Kerill, as a new to WoC (and Fantasy in general) player, it's extremely useful. Only thing that confused me was the 2nd negative point for the Hellcannon, it seems to be talking about a mage exploding.

I have been considering the Palanquin as a BSB mount due to loving the model and it being infantry and therefore getting a LOS! roll in a unit of warriors or marauders. Am i crazy, or is it not a bad idea?

Whitehorn
12-07-2010, 08:38
I'll catch up with the previous comments later.

I tried out my first 8th ed game yesterday, 1k. I took a unit of 50 Slaanesh marauders (Sh, LA, FC) with Festus in the unit. It was ferocious! I'll have to post up some pictures of a charge we felt a bit daft (wheeling a 10 wide unit after a charge seems to be a bit incredible).

I took 5 Trolls, Warshrine, 10 Marauder horses. They did nothing all game. Just 300 points of Marauders dominating with Festus.

CmdrLaw
12-07-2010, 09:31
Did Festus hold up alright? tend to use him myself but he seems quite vunerable to return hits, especially if your big unit is doing all the work.

sayles78
12-07-2010, 10:03
RARE UNITS

Hellcannon- 9/10 (6.5/10 in 7th)


ii) No partials means a lot more hits. Twenty one models on a 20mm base (17 kills if T3 and armour save 5+ or worse) or sixteen on 25mm base (13 kills), five on cavalry bases (2 kills on 1+ save T3 cavalry).


I thought the Hellcannon used the small blast template? With your numbers, it looks like you're basing the calcs on the large one??? I could be wrong - haven't got access to the BRB at the mo. I usually am wrong!

EDIT: Great write up by the way Kerill. Looking forward to the Mono-themed army Tactica. Thinking of going Nurgle myself.

Eta
12-07-2010, 10:40
I thought the Hellcannon used the small blast template? With your numbers, it looks like you're basing the calcs on the large one??? I could be wrong - haven't got access to the BRB at the mo. I usually am wrong!

EDIT: Great write up by the way Kerill. Looking forward to the Mono-themed army Tactica. Thinking of going Nurgle myself.

You are right, it uses the small template. Nevertheless, you can hit that many models with the small one when you include partial hits (see the attached graphic). I even managed to hit 22 models ;)

Greetings
Eta

teleologica
12-07-2010, 10:54
I think my list is going to be something allong the lines of

level 4 with power familiar and homulus lore of fire
level 2 with puppet lore of fire
BSB with 4+ ward save item and ignore 1st hit shield

50 marrauders with flails and full command (possibly khone)
25 marrauders with hw/shield/light amour and full command (possibly nurgle/tzentch depending on fluff)
5 marrauder horsmen with thorwing axes
5 dogs
(hopefully that should be enough- not worked on maths yet)

6 ogers with great weapons and musician
5 knights of nurgle with rage banner

Lore of Fire - not sure yet. I tend to think Shadow and Fire are both better. However, there are some good spells in there. TBH I think I'd go for Lore of Tzeentch if I just wanted a straight damage-dealing lore. Flickering fire, Treason, and of course Gateway cast on a 10+ on the dice ... oh yeah!

Shame you haven't got any actual warriors in there, but the big lumps of marauders should work.


I have been considering the Palanquin as a BSB mount due to loving the model and it being infantry and therefore getting a LOS! roll in a unit of warriors or marauders. Am i crazy, or is it not a bad idea?

It's a great idea, and obviously exactly why GW made the Palanquin infantry. I just wonder whether they intend to bring out a Palanquin model in the rumoured wave release for WoC, as the lack of model is a big reason nobody fielded one in 7th.


I thought the Hellcannon used the small blast template? With your numbers, it looks like you're basing the calcs on the large one??? I could be wrong - haven't got access to the BRB at the mo. I usually am wrong!

No, he's using the small blast. Remember that with no guess ranges you will always place the template perfectly (barring scatter, of course), and with no partials, you'll be hitting A LOT of models.

[Edit - ninja-ed by Eta who makes the point better than me]

Harfaern
12-07-2010, 11:00
Lore of Fire - not sure yet. I tend to think Shadow and Fire are both better. However, there are some good spells in there. TBH I think I'd go for Lore of Tzeentch if I just wanted a straight damage-dealing lore. Flickering fire, Treason, and of course Gateway cast on a 10+ on the dice ... oh yeah!

I think that Treason, with all the big infantry blocks, can be a great spell!

sayles78
12-07-2010, 11:14
You are right, it uses the small template. Nevertheless, you can hit that many models with the small one when you include partial hits (see the attached graphic). I even managed to hit 22 models ;)

Greetings
Eta

Jesus! Thats scary... imagine what the big f*%$er would do!

Thanks for putting that one to bed.

TurboDzan
12-07-2010, 11:18
I take it your going to be praying for the Ward save on the eye of the gods then?

You don't need to pray. With two war shrines and favor of the god's, your chosen should have it, statistically, by turn 2.

danny-d-b
12-07-2010, 11:36
Lore of Fire - not sure yet. I tend to think Shadow and Fire are both better. However, there are some good spells in there. TBH I think I'd go for Lore of Tzeentch if I just wanted a straight damage-dealing lore. Flickering fire, Treason, and of course Gateway cast on a 10+ on the dice ... oh yeah!

Shame you haven't got any actual warriors in there, but the big lumps of marauders should work.



well the plan is to take no tzzentch as there is aleready a mono tzzenctch player at the club and the fact I hate gateway- though at least you don't need to throw 5 dice at it this editon- might wait and see what other people bring

its also good to hear about festus- might re-look in to him and my all nurgle list- casting mass bubos might be fun (as its the basic spell, so more that one wizzard can have it)- might go with a level 4 of nurgle, festus and a BSB instead and two big blocks of marrauders and hope to get regen on them both (1 from festus) that way I don't need the Tzzeench ward save?

in fact at 2000 points lets go with
level 4 of nurgle with the puppet and 5+ ward save item (hoping for the regen spell)
festus
BSB with the 4+ ward save item and mark of nurgle- and great weapon

2x40 marrauders with GWs, light armour and shield and mark of nurgle
5 horsemen with throwing axes and musician
5 dogs

5 knights of nurgle with rage banner
6 ogers with great weapons

I've not the maths but it sounds nasty- hope to get the regeneration spell on the level 4, cast that on the non festus marrauders and then ground out the win- either going 10x4 or 7x5 (+5) depending on what I'm facing- either hoard or other- and with either a 6+/5+ or a 6+/4+ I should be good for defending- unless they cause flaming

mean while the knights and ogers go on the flanks and crush things

Poseidal
12-07-2010, 11:43
Any thoughts on the Lore of Shadow?

The core spell seems quite useful to protect the guys from shooting early on, then boost their combat later, reducing enemy WS (which can drop someone drop someone below 5 for Warriors or 4 for Marauders increasing the killiness there).

The question is how to use the secondary ability well, would putting him on a steed make him vulnerable to shooting for the swap ability going into an infantry block (more likely this edition).

What defences would you put on one? That said, the Disc hero with no protection apart from armour and the Tzeentch Mark didn't die that often, though could be hidden more easily last edition.

CmdrLaw
12-07-2010, 11:52
I think Festus switches for curse of the leper not bubos, but if he rolls it then yes woulod be fun.

Most of my force is nurgle (Festus' personal regiment) but running with a lvl 4 Tzeentch Mage on disc, mostly becasue that sounds quite fun. Maybe some Tzeentch chosen in a bigger force.

Yeah festus in a Horde of Marauders is quite horrible, you can run them naked and rely on the 5+ regen, plus they have poisoned attacks....shame I can't bothed to pick up that many maruaders.

sayles78
12-07-2010, 12:04
In our gaming group, we are all pretty relaxed about gaming limitations - fun and personal preference rule with us!

So, I'm looking at my warriors of chaos list (not finalised my list yet, and haven't yet played 8th) and I really fancy throwing some minotaurs (from Beastmen) in. I think minotaurs should have been in WoC book anyway.... but...

Q. How do Minotaurs compare to Ogres and Trolls in 8th? Think I'm gunna run with em anyway, but would be nice to hear some comparisons / past experiences.

Thanks.

PS: If I ever play against someone who wont allow minotaurs in a WoC, I just plan on using them as ogres with MoK.

BrotherNefarius
12-07-2010, 12:50
Hey guys,

I played a couple of games this week-end and got quite impressed with some spell synergy and some magic items...

Lore of Death - Doom and Darkness (-3 Leadership to a model) is a killer combined with helm of discord (oppponent LD test or do nothing in combat + auto hit)

Lore of Death - Soulblight is simply insane, power up version is a game breaker. -1 S and -1 T to all enemy in 24" bubble around the caster? CRAZY! With our already nice core troops, makes them wound on 2+ most of the time, even with hand weapons. And makes them really tougher. Double win for combat resolution.

Lore of shadow and Lore of death synergy... the -d3 T and -d3 S spells are great starters for the Caress of Laniph and Fate of Bjuna... You could even throw in a Curse of the Leper if you have Festus or a nurgle caster.

My favorite setup now is a Sorc. Lord with Lore of Shadows and 2 hero sorcs with Lore of Death. Yes you heard right, no MoT Sorcs

Zangor
12-07-2010, 13:19
I have been considering the Palanquin as a BSB mount due to loving the model and it being infantry and therefore getting a LOS! roll in a unit of warriors or marauders. Am i crazy, or is it not a bad idea?

I wouldnt go as far as to call you crazy, but i would say that you have to really love the model to field it. Placing it in a warrior unit you lose at least 4 attacks. The +1 armor save and the attacks from the palanquin dosnt really compensate for the loss and on top of that you have to pay 50 points for it. I guess it wouldnt be all bad to field in a marauder unit though i would still say its way too expensive.

Edit: on top of that you would have to pay 20 pts for the (not too useful) mark of nurgle in order to mount it. But if you field it at least you are going to feel so cool every time it pays off. And its not like its Łber crap like the forsaken or a spawn.

Kerill
12-07-2010, 13:22
Thanks for the comments, I've added the last section but had to leave out half of what I wanted to go over because of the character limit. I've also added the army list topic and the link in the first page:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4813231#post4813231

So do add your 8th edition lists there :)

sayles78
12-07-2010, 13:24
Hey guys,

I played a couple of games this week-end and got quite impressed with some spell synergy and some magic items...

Lore of Death - Doom and Darkness (-3 Leadership to a model) is a killer combined with helm of discord (oppponent LD test or do nothing in combat + auto hit)

Lore of Death - Soulblight is simply insane, power up version is a game breaker. -1 S and -1 T to all enemy in 24" bubble around the caster? CRAZY! With our already nice core troops, makes them wound on 2+ most of the time, even with hand weapons. And makes them really tougher. Double win for combat resolution.

Lore of shadow and Lore of death synergy... the -d3 T and -d3 S spells are great starters for the Caress of Laniph and Fate of Bjuna... You could even throw in a Curse of the Leper if you have Festus or a nurgle caster.

My favorite setup now is a Sorc. Lord with Lore of Shadows and 2 hero sorcs with Lore of Death. Yes you heard right, no MoT Sorcs

Very interesting! How do you field them? What units do they run with and what (if at all) are they mounted on?

Alexander Keith
12-07-2010, 13:32
Thanks a ton Kerill...I'm really looking forward to your character break down!


And what does everyone think of a unit of eight Ogres?

Azhrar
12-07-2010, 13:33
Sorry if this has already been discussed.

I see alot of people talking about fielding big units of marauders, and while I can see the potential, i think that the new template weapons will be a huge thorn in our sides.

I seriously fail to see how WOC can effectively deal with an Empire list with 3 mortars and a couple of great cannons, lord lvl caster and huge blocks of infantry.

Magic is ofcourse an option , but unless i am mistaken Empire can pretty easily lock down our magic with priests and magic items

Kerill
12-07-2010, 13:44
Sorry if this has already been discussed.

I see alot of people talking about fielding big units of marauders, and while I can see the potential, i think that the new template weapons will be a huge thorn in our sides.

I seriously fail to see how WOC can effectively deal with an Empire list with 3 mortars and a couple of great cannons, lord lvl caster and huge blocks of infantry.

Magic is ofcourse an option , but unless i am mistaken Empire can pretty easily lock down our magic with priests and magic items

Because mortars still scatter and if he has 500 points in war machines and 600 points in characters (general, 2 warrior priests and a level 4) there isn't much left for the rest of the army. If a third of your troops make it through the barrage they can have a field day. Not to mention units that can go war machine hunting.

Stanks are the real problem.

Azhrar
12-07-2010, 13:47
3 Mortars cost 225 points, and when using the 5 inch templates even a little scattering still causes some pain.

The damage those 225 points can cause will be extreme :/

Lungboy
12-07-2010, 13:54
Would Wulfrik + Marauders coming on from the opponents board edge help against static warmachine heavy lists?

Witchblade
12-07-2010, 13:54
Hence the need for something(s) in your list with warmachine hunting abilities, e.g. warhounds, horsemen, an exalted on slaaneshi steed or a disc rider. I think I'll stick to the disc rider and the warhounds. They're multi-purpose.


Would Wulfrik + Marauders coming on from the opponents board edge help against static warmachine heavy lists?
Sure it would help. But it's also unreliable and the unit's use is limited to a few armies.

Brother Drakist
12-07-2010, 13:57
3 Mortars cost 225 points, and when using the 5 inch templates even a little scattering still causes some pain.

The damage those 225 points can cause will be extreme :/

It doesn't take too long to get into combat in 8th. Sure you might take some pain, but when you hit his line their isn't much that can stop you. Empire infantry will crumble before a marauder assault. Larger units will just take longer to deal with but will ultimately succumb to the might of Chaos. Wouldn't hurt you to field some fast calvarly to help you deal with the Mortars sooner.

Kerill
12-07-2010, 14:01
3 Mortars cost 225 points, and when using the 5 inch templates even a little scattering still causes some pain.

The damage those 225 points can cause will be extreme :/
Not got the 5" template handy but I'm guessing it could cover a full unit of 30 marauders more or less so 15 would die but 15 marauders can still happily trounce an empire infantry unit. Two hits will leave very little though I agree.

It would probably hit a full unit of 18 warriors too but only 3 will die (2 with blasted standard, 1.5 if also Tzentch). A cannon can kill another couple but the unit is still fully functional. Turn 2 or turn 3 at the latest your faster elements can be charging the enemy line. Turn 2 your war machine hunters can be charging and with TLOS it will be very hard to hide those war machines from disk riders and hounds/horsemen at the same time.

Scattering will reduce the damage, as will misfires, and you will have 5/6 units of troops to weather the storm with.

Also remember in 8th even if he mortars your 35 marauders down to 3 men he doesn't get a single victory point, whereas if you kill a cannon or one of his units you will be getting VPS.

Fruhauf
12-07-2010, 14:02
An awesome write up seriously :) will help a great deal.

Thanks and gl to all WoC'ers in 8th!

Lungboy
12-07-2010, 14:10
Treason of Tzeentch looks like it might be very powerful with the switch towards large horde units of GW armed men, or for taking out the elite enemy units like Swordmasters before they can hurt our units.

HampMan
12-07-2010, 15:08
Writing my army list im stuck on a certain topic. Nurgle or Khorne for my blender warriors with halberds? and another one, is it possible to have shields and halberds?

I'm thinking nurgle so that the warriors can dish out hell of a punishment and take less losses back.

Jericho
12-07-2010, 15:14
You can take halberd + shield for the extra armor save against ranged attacks, but you MUST use the halberd in combat so you can't claim armor or parry bonus :(

Zangor
12-07-2010, 15:16
You can carry shields and halberds you just cant use them at the same time. So you can use the shields as protection from shooting before entering close combat.

I would certainly choose khorne if i where you. In many situations the -1 to the enemy WS wont make any difference, but the extra attack from frenzy will always make a difference.

theSkullduggery1
12-07-2010, 15:53
Hence the need for something(s) in your list with warmachine hunting abilities, e.g. warhounds, horsemen, an exalted on slaaneshi steed or a disc rider. I think I'll stick to the disc rider and the warhounds. They're multi-purpose.

I'm thinking the steed of slaanesh is looking like a much better option this edition with the fast cav movement pre-game. Also, my disk has been hit by the lore of heavens meaning an extra D6 attacks...I didn't like that very much.


but the extra attack from frenzy will always make a difference.

Always make a difference? What about if you lose combat? Then Nurgle still makes a difference while Khorne doesn't.

Lungboy
12-07-2010, 15:56
Maybe Nurgle with Banner of Rage?

Eta
12-07-2010, 15:57
@Kerill:

Thanks for your great write up, tons of good information. But could you add some more paragraphs into your last post, it is quite hard to read. Or is it not possible because of the character limit you have reached?

Greetings
Eta

Zangor
12-07-2010, 16:18
Always make a difference? What about if you lose combat? Then Nurgle still makes a difference while Khorne doesn't.

Does it? nurgle is so much more situational then khorne and wont necessarily make any difference through an entire battle no matter how you choose to play. And your right frenzy wont make a difference if you dont have frenzy.

My point still stands though, as the extra attack from frenzy does make a difference.... if you have frenzy. Just like the better save from a shield makes a difference... if you carry one.

brendino
12-07-2010, 16:35
@Kerill: You are a star! great write up! I'm sure I speak for everybody here when I say that it was greatly appreciated.

KERILL FOR DEAMON PRINCE 2010!!!

Fruhauf
12-07-2010, 16:49
Banner of rage will allow you to keep frenzy even if you lose the combat and it's only 5 more points for a unit of warriors to take over the mark of khorne (leaving you free to choose another mark if you so desire, it would combine nice with any marks except MoK for obvious reasons)

captainAurelius
12-07-2010, 16:53
I'm thinking the steed of slaanesh is looking like a much better option this edition with the fast cav movement pre-game.

I not suggesting you haven't, but for the casual reader:
Fast cav pre-game movement will not allow a first turn charge ever.
Expect to take some serious incoming if you're sat alone in no-mans land.

I still prefer the disc mounted Exalted.
Although he won't get a look in before my BSB and Juggernaut

Cartoon
12-07-2010, 16:55
Treason of Tzeentch looks like it might be very powerful with the switch towards large horde units of GW armed men, or for taking out the elite enemy units like Swordmasters before they can hurt our units.

Treason is a beautiful thing this edition. Just recently I took out a unit of 18 white lions in one turn with it. The unit killed 3/4ths of itself and the rest panicked right off the board, good times.

Warmachines are going to be our achilles heal this edition, although they always have been. I'm just hoping marauder horse are up to the challenge of hunting with the increased amount of shooting that's going to happen. Sending an exalted out might be the better way to go, give him a 3 or 4+ ward save and a halberd or flail and he should be able to cut down crews. Bloodcurdling roar might be very useful on a warmachine hunter as well, since it will always wound on a 6 now.

What point games do you think you'll see more of now? Most of the lists I'm writing are around 2500. Anything less and it gets very tough to fit in all the stuff I want to take, and even then I have to cut down on a lot. Maybe 2750 will be the new 2250.

Azmodian
12-07-2010, 18:18
RARE UNITS


Chaos Warshrine- 6/10 (6/10 in 7th)

Warshrines are big, tough and hard to kill but they are also slow and have the hitting power of less than 2 chaos warriors. They struggle to beat anything in combat and whilst they can potentially support an infantry unit in a minor way their main use is in granting bonuses via eye of the gods- especially for chosen.

Warshrines are again a bit of a gamble whether or not you will get a useful bonus or not. Chosen with favour of the gods are more likely to get a good bonus and in 8th stupidity is not such a serious problem if you do roll it. In 8th warshrines also don’t have to worry about being outnumbered so for CR they have 1 less static CR to face. Still I’m not particularly a fan of spending 130 points on a gamble as noted in the chosen section above although others will undoubtedly disagree.

Thunderstomp would have made it a lot more useful



The army book has the Shrine listed as a monster, and should get Thunderstomp (I browsed the reply's and didn't see this so thought I would mention it)

theSkullduggery1
12-07-2010, 18:24
The FAQ says that Warshrines do not get Thunderstomp...it would be really nice if they did though.

Azmodian
12-07-2010, 18:25
Yup, Just looked at that after I made the post... lol thanks good ol GW

Kerill
12-07-2010, 18:35
Marks and mono themes

Khorne and Tzeentch have appeared a lot in this overview for ideal marks for units, but slaanesh and nurgle havenít suddenly become useless. For warrior builds the banner of rage on slaanesh (for theme)/nurgle is better than mark of Khorne for blender warriors. Nurgle anvils may not have the 5+ ward for anvil warriors but they do have -1 to hit with shooting and many troops striking on 5s instead of 4ís so are still very effective. Nurgle is also a great mark against one of the hardest armies for chaos - lizardmen. Saurus spears and stegadons need a 5+ to hit warriors and curse of the leper and cloying quagmire are very good against lizards.

Slaanesh is still a cheap mark that allows you to ignore psychology. Whilst terror is weaker, fear autobreak is gone and the bsb allows re-rolls remember that panic is now probably worse. Will of chaos allowed re-rolls to psychology anyway and yet slaanesh was still the most popular mark. Make no mistake, psychology has not gone away and Ld7/8 is not that good.

For marauders, nurgle and slaanesh canít compare to khorne for killiness but can still function as fine anvil units- you can rely on warriors and other units for your killing.

Mono Khorne is still not the best choice but now you are going to have a lot more dispel dice so at least you can dispel something, in many ways its more effective in 8th than 7th.

Mounts

Bear in mind that you only get a LOS roll if you are in a unit of the same unit type (not base size!) but can also get a LOS roll if within 3Ē of a unit of the same unit type.

Chaos Steed- There was little reason to be on foot in 7th (bloodskull pendant aside) when you could get +2AS, an extra S4 attack and fill out the ranks a bit. Sadly with the changes to LOS characters in units may well be hanging up their spurs and slumming it with the lads on foot. Still great choice when with cavalry.

Daemon Steed- Never a great choice sadly, its got even worse in 8th due to no LOS.

Jugger- Suffers from the same LOS issues as the daemon steed but is still a popular model and grants MR1, +3 save and decent combat power. You can get around the LOS roll (crimson armour, 4+ ward, 4+ regen, trolls, charmed shield) and some armies donít have cannons/stone throwers anyway so whilst not a great option they arenít that bad.

Palanquin of Nurgle- A strange mount, never very popular due to M4 and the fact that both the jugger and daemonsteed where statistically better killers. In 8th the fact that it displaces your second rank (thereby denying them support attacks) might make it seem even worse. The fact that the defensive benefits (+1save) seem to be outweighed by the large base (twice as wide so more enemy can attack you). Despite this, the fact that it counts as infantry means that it is one of the few ways to boost the save of a character with infantry without forgoing LOS. Also, since armour saves have generally decreased in 8th, those 6 S3 poison attacks are looking slightly nicer. Finally we can, with chaos, take advantage of the opponents desire to assassinate our character. By giving the character a good save which your opponent wastes attacks against we are boosting how much we can win the combat by- as long as we arenít up against super elite or shock troops. Immunity to fear and forcing the opponent to take fear tests is also nice. As a result in an anvil/bunker style marauder unit a palanquin isnít a bad choice.

Steed of Slaanesh- There is debate over whether this is a 50mm base or 25*50mm base, the WOC book clearly suggests (top of page 54) the latter is the case, but the latest model (for 6th edition where it was a multi-wound monster) is on a 50mm base. Cavalry base is obviously nicer for us, but regardless of the base size it does of course count as cavalry- and fast cavalry at that. Cavalry means it is getting a LOS roll. The fact that it is fast cavalry and therefore gets the vanguard ability opens a lot of interesting if possibly dangerous possibilities for the model. It has pathetic fighting stats but causes fear and has M10. The steed can be used for many sneaky things. Its also worth pointing out at this point that a lone character charging a unit now has several buffs:
i) There is no US. goodd since most war machine crew had US3.
ii) You now get +1 for charging
iii) You now get +1 for flanking.

Before a steed character charging the flank of missile troops would be at -1CR, now round we are at +2CR. This makes these characters much better for war machine and missile troop hunting and even a sorcerer has a chance to beat some MI or heavy cavalry units if it charges to the flank- risky but possible. An exalted with flail is even better at this role. A final possibility is against elites who have gone wide to take a charge from chaos warriors or marauders- an exalted (or to some extent a sorcerer) with stream of corruption in the flank charges in instead of the chaos warriors, for an exalted we might take a wound from the two models on the flank, and the unit will have +1CR from its standard. We will kill 5 models in return and have +2 static CR in addition. If the unit then lacks enough models in the second rank for steadfast its testing to break on -6. Not going to have this possibility every battle, but again, an opportunity to look out for.

Ideally the vanguard move and a wide deployment can get the steed riding character out of shooting arcs early on so if your opponent does want to shoot them it will have an extra -1 modifier.

Disk of Tzeentch- Always been one the best mounts it gains the same bonuses in combat as the steed of slaanesh above, it is even more manoeuvrable and the tzeentch character on top tends to have a great ward save. For a sorcerer riding a disk is one of the best ways to reduce the fallout from a miscast since only the sorcerer is likely to be hit by the S10 hit and with a 3+ ward and maybe 2+ shield to discount it anyway its not a big worry.

Remember both the disk and the steed can get the 4+ LOS roll when near a unit of cavalry such as marauder horsemen, which is another plus for horsemen IMO. A disk rider behind a unit of marauder horsemen can charge over them, is -1 to hit with shooting and has a 4+ LOS.

Chaos Characters

Chaos Lords

Expensive for their points in 6th and 7th compared to running two exalteds. Partly a fluff choice, although that 3rd wound could come in handy for Khorne and the crimson armour for cannonballs. Ld9 was never a big deal when most lists were Khornate cavalry anyway. Above all a Chaos Lord meant you couldnít load up on magic which meant your list was a lot less competitive.

Ld9 is more useful in 8th but, whilst it is possible to have a sorcerer lord and chaos lord, you canít do it at <3000 points and have a fully tricked out sorcerer lord and magic is still a strength of the army. As a result a pure Khorne army can consider the chaos lord as an option and there is one speedy Tzeentch caster version which could be fun and quite useful but generally go sorcerer lord.

Daemon Princes

Daemon princes in 7th had 1 competitive build- the gateway prince build of Tzeentch. Tendrils being a very handy gift to get gateway off and since gateway and some of the other Tzeentch spells donít require LOS, you could hide if need be and still blast away.

In 8th the Daemon Prince has received buffs:
i) Thunderstomp- and extra D6S5 autohits is nice
ii) Changes in rolling spells means getting gateway is far more likely
iii) Adding your level helps getting spells off is easier.
iv) Tendrils is, if anything, even better in 8th
v) The DP benefits from the changes to lone characters

But also received nerfs:
i) With its fairly weak save (4+ ward at best) step up and support attacks mean it is in a lot more danger.
ii) True line of sight, no range guessing and indirect fire mean it is much harder to stop the daemon prince being taken out.
iii) Terror is much weaker in 8th (as is fear)
iv) Blood of Tzeentch on a sorcerer lord got a lit better

The extra 120-150 points spent also feels a lot more in 8th. Also, depending on points size, you may not be able to fully tool up your prince with the 25% cap.

Not a bad choice, but if you do take one its best if he isnít the general since he is a bit less safe this edition.

Sorcerors

I still think sorcerer lords are still our best lord choice and a Tzeentch or Slaanesh sorcerer lord is better than a basic sorcerer lord taking rulebook lores IMO. For the Nurgle sorcerer lord, whilst they are still fine, I would definitely consider third eye (otherwise I prefer it on the secondary caster). An unmarked sorcerer is much better in 8th than 7th though and I quite like the idea of a sorcerer lord taking shadows (or death) with the secondary caster as a level 2 with spell familiar (or festus) to get curse of the leper. Curse of the leper + enfeebling foe/the withering= instant death for most units in the game. Curse of the leper + soulblight= instant death if they fail to dispel it in their magic phase.

For a level one or two support mage I like an unmarked sorcerer (death or shadows) or nurgle for character sniping. If the main sorcerer is nurgle then I would go for a nurgle level one or (probably) a book of secrets bsb for shadows and potential instant death. Lore of death is very nice against skaven since their characters have very low base leadership. Since skaven may well be one of the top dogs in 8th its worth remembering. Lore of shadows does have a nice low difficulty base spell though which is very good against high elf elites in particular (drop their I so they no longer get re-rolls) but which has a great deal of utility generally (reduce Ws against lizards, Ws against WOC, etc.)

In 7th I had a lot of fun with level 1 nurgle sorcerors on chariots, although it does raise a rules issue not covered in the WOC FAQ for 7th/8th edition which is- does the mark of nurgle -1 to hit also extend to the characterís mount (manticore, dragon, chariot). It doesnít for the unit (obviously since they arenít targeting him, they are targeting the unit). Iíve always felt that when the character is on a mount they are indeed targeting him and he has not joined a unit therefore the -1 to hit for shooting applies. Ask your group. A nurgle sorcerer on a chariot means you get a nice chariot for the bargain price of 100 points, gives the sorcerer a nice armour save against shooting and gives both a -1 to hit with shooting. In 8th it also keeps the sorcerer out of the main units so your sorcerer is out of the way of unit killing spells. In 8th I still like this combo for nice infantry support. In 8th I would give the sorcerer your choice of arcane item (power familiar, puppet) and the charmed shield since cannons now simultaneously hit the chariot and rider and a 2+ save is handy. With no autopop cannons now have a 55% chance to kill the chariot compared to 83% last edition and you can always use a troll shield if you want. 5points spent on the ironcurse probably worth it.

Special Characters

Archaon

Not a lot has changed here in terms of effectiveness IMO apart from his loosing his LOS roll, but with a 3+ ward and minimum 3 to wound he is still pretty tough and a monster inn combat. Ld 10 is nice in 8th and he now has a 1+ ward against magic. At 685 points he basically canít be taken in most common battles (needs 2740 points) and even at 3000 points he denies you the use of a sorcerer lord, so for really big battles only.

Galrauch

For 46 points more than a tooled Tzeentch daemon prince you get an absolute combat monster. 6+ ward and true line of sight means he will suffer against artillery armies, although no large target=better off against bolt throwers.

I like Galrauch a lot more in 8th than 7th and he is IMO cheaper and better than a dragon rider. He has Ld9 and with the bsb nearby can now re-roll his spirit of galrauch tests making him a lot better. I6 is very good for a dragon and is useful against certain spells. He has two basic breath weapons and can use each separately once (canít use them both at the same time) which is great stuff- S4 is better than stream of corruption and S2+3 save is pretty good against high armour saves. Then we look at the best part- breath of change. Obviously 2D6 hits in combat taking T tests or dying will mean heavy cavalry die in droves. More importantly, in a challenge this means galrauch can slay ANYTHING in the game. 7T tests on average (and remember you ALWAYS fail on a 6- p10 brb) against a star dragon rider there is a good chance that both the rider (two or three tests at T3) and the star dragon (four or five tests at T6) will die. The dragon wonít even have a chance to attack. Knowing all 6 Tzeentch spells is cool. If you do run him a 4+ regen spell or troll shield might be worthwhile.

Valkia

Not a bad character- a hard fighter that can hide in a unit before flying out to maim. Would rather have a level 4 sorceror though and with bsbs more prevalent re-rolling break tests isnít such a great special. Nice in large games where you donít need too many casters.

Sigvald

Now that difficult terrain doesnít slow you down, units can get steadfast (and chaos units now hit much harder) and march blocking is much less of a threat Sigvald isnít particularly worth it in 8th. Stubborn can now also be bought for 35 points. Ld10 is nice though and he isnít a complete waste- ASF I8 is nice. Iíd still rather have a sorcerer lord.

Villitch

As a caster, villitch is very nice, good special and gets all 6 Tzeentch spells. Still he canít take blood of Tzeentch or homunculus and is easy to kill in combat or by magic sniping. His extra S and A donít seem too useful in 8th where he really should be avoiding combat a lot. Iíd stick to a normal level 4.

Festus

5+ regeneration for the unit and poison attacks are nice bonuses for any unit (but especially an a/hw unit with armour piercing banner) and Festus is pretty cheap. He is also the only way you can have two curse of lepers in a list in 8th. Festus, like villitch, dies pretty easily though. I think he is a good character in 8th- 5+ regen on the way to a gunline is golden, but you will need to be very careful to make sure he isnít charged by anything too hefty. He canít take an arcane item, but his special more than makes up for it.

Throgg

Wow, he may have lost LOS in units of but with units of 6 or more MI viable who cares. His special vomit attack + breath attack = 3D6 S5 magical autohits which is great. Using his leadership and re-rolling break tests isnít as good in 8th but his sheer damage potential is amazing. Even using his breath weapon as a shooting attack is much better now, thatís an awful lot of hits from that template almost a full unit of 18 warriors if you get a flank shot. Good for an uncomped tourney.

Wulfrik

Wulfrik and his band of merry band was a popular pick in 7th, and having a combat unit show up behind enemy lines, especially gun lines, is still potentially golden. Wulfrik himself though is pretty pants- T4 and a 3+ save in 8th means he will be dead fairly swiftly against a lot of things. The three problems I have with Wulfrik is randomness, reduced effectivenss against attacking armies, and that for 175 points I could have another unit of 25 GW Khorne marauders with FC. Iím not a fan of Wulfrik,unless in bigger games.

Character Builds

Level 4 Sorceror of Tzeentch, disk, 4+ ward amulet, blood of Tzeentch, charmed shield, biting blade (optional), conjoined homunculus, stream of corruption- 435 points.
2+ save, 3+ ward, 2+ ignore first hit, all the magic boosters you can fit on a mortal, speedy and not at all bad in combat. Optional anti-etheral sword.

Chaos Lord of Tzeentch, amulet of preservation, book of secrets, third eye of Tzeentch, stream of corruption. Remaining 30 points spent on:
i) sword of might, charmed shield
ii) Glaive of putrefaction, charmed shield
iii) Just the charmed shield and a halberd.

Exalted of Tzeentch, bsb, book of secrets, collar of Khorne, shield, third eye of Tzeentch (in unit with banner of rage)- 225 points. MR2 for the unit is nice and grants a 3+ ward save for the exalted against sniping. In combat 3+ save 5+ ward isnít bad and he gets 5 attacks due to the banner of rage. Level 1 mage with +2 to cast. Any mark exalted can do this build but wonít get Tzeentch extras. This potentially saves the need for a third character as a backup caster. You can also swap the collar of Khorne for power familiar if you donít want another caster but you lose defensively..

Sorceror of Slaanesh, level 2, steed of slaanesh, Golden eye, charmed shield, spell familiar, bloodcurdling roar/stream of corruption 195 points
- for the shenanigans described under steed of slaanesh above. Can start the game in a unit of horsemen or run solo. Can shrug off a first war machine hit easily and has a 4+ ward against any others but should be in combat turn 2 anyway. Spell familiar is to make him a solid backup caster- remember the spell familiar increases your chance to get the spell you want by more than in 7th since it also increases the chance of a double. Seizures and delusions are excellent as always and this build excels at getting into position for a hellshriek.

Level 2 sorceror of Nurgle, palanquin, charmed shield, dawnstone, ironcurse icon, channelling staff, stream of corruption.
- This is an example of a character so suck up attacks from basic infantry in a unit of (for fluffís sake) Nurgle marauders. A re-rollable 2+ armour save, -1Ws when attacked he is pretty survivable. He also grants the unit a 6+ ward against war machines so your anvil will be slightly more intact against a gun line. Staff of channelling is not as good as the power familiar but is, on average an extra 2 power or dispel dice over the course of a battle. Ws3/2 S3 infantry will need over 300 attacks on him to cause a single wound. Ws4-5 will need over 200. Ws 4-5 or less with S4 will need about 40. S5 will need 12. Increased strength makes a huge difference so be careful. Also there is the possibility of the foe failing the occasional fear test which is useful. Stream of corruption is very in theme here and can swing a combat so the marauder anvil can win combat by a decent margin rather than holding.

If you want power familiar you could go enchanted shield (for 1+ save), luckstone, ironcurse icon and power familiar. For puppet go charmed shield, luck stone and ironcurse icon.

Also good for a bsb.

Khorne Exalted, jugger, crimson armour, great weapon OR halberd, luckstone
- general for a Khornate army run in a unit of knights with the blasted banner. If not with the blasted banner we could also tack on the ironcurse icon. One re-roll of a 1+ save is always handy as well. OR talisman of preservation, charmed shield
with a chance to ignore the first cannon hit on a 2+.

bsb, Glaive of putrefaction, potion of strength, charmed shield.
- for big beasties, but a big risk of bsb death.OR whip of subversion, potion of strength, charmed shield a safer build if without long term nerfing of the beastie. Nice in a unit with flaming banner.


bsb, potion of strength, warrior bane, shield, dragonhelm, luck stone.
- also a nasty surprise, but with a better defence (2+ save with one re-roll) and warrior bane takes effect immediately.

bsb, helm of many + stuff

theSkullduggery1
12-07-2010, 18:38
Speaking of the warshrines...why is the common target chosen?

I used one to buff a horde of Marauders with GW and MoK that had a lvl 1 with FotG...my thought was that a S5 T4 model for 5 points would be amazing, however I got +1 attack which would have been 50 attacks if all 10 guys were in base contact.

I wasn't really willing to re-roll and lose my +1 attack which I liked enough.

randomkrazy
12-07-2010, 18:43
Hey guys,
Lore of Death - Soulblight is simply insane, power up version is a game breaker. -1 S and -1 T to all enemy in 24" bubble around the caster? CRAZY! With our already nice core troops, makes them wound on 2+ most of the time, even with hand weapons. And makes them really tougher. Double win for combat resolution.

Yeah I had this cast on me vs a dark elf player. It wasn't pretty, luckily I held out and was able to overcome him after 3 turns of combat haha. I ending up winning destroying his entire army, but that part of the game was really scary!

Jericho
12-07-2010, 18:53
There's also the option of the ASF sword + some kind of talisman or whatever for defense, this might avoid some of those pesky stupidity checks. I hate those, even with a re-roll on Ld8 I can't pass any important tests. Ld rolls for me are either 2-3 or 10-12, rarely ever anything in between :p

Most of those combos look good, I like the idea of screening a disc rider with marauder cav since he can charge over them :)

BTW Book of Secrets is no longer a good idea (ever) on a Sorcerer (FAQ hit this item hard with the nerf stick). They revert to a L1, losing all of their other spells and other casting bonuses from being a level 2-4. Can't channel dice either. So yeah, Exalted's only, unless you're willing to pay for MoT just for the ward save and +1 to cast on Lore of Fire. Strongly advise spell familiar to at least get 2 rolls on Fire if you go this way (which I don't recommend at all :p).

Stream of Corruption disc riders might be the next big thing for Chaos. They should be able to maul small support units/war machines with the +1CR for charging/flanking, and thin ranks in a hurry with Stream.

Lungboy
12-07-2010, 19:20
What do people think about this as a BSB build:

Exalted Hero, MoN, BSB, Palanquin, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon, Biting Blade, Enchanted Shield, Stream of Corruption (275).

Sit him in a unit of 26 Marauders, MoT, LA, Shields, FC (196).

Eta
12-07-2010, 20:21
What do people think about this as a BSB build:

Exalted Hero, MoN, BSB, Palanquin, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon, Biting Blade, Enchanted Shield, Stream of Corruption (275).

Sit him in a unit of 26 Marauders, MoT, LA, Shields, FC (196).

Isn't the Palanquin classed as infantry unit? If yes, you will not need the Ironcurse Icon, your LO,S! should be enough to defend against cannonballs.

Greetings
Eta

Lungboy
12-07-2010, 20:32
The Ironcurse was more for his unit, will give the Marauders a 5++ vs war machines.

Jericho
12-07-2010, 21:39
Which will help a lot actually against mortars and flame cannons etc. (which are getting massive boosts in 8th).

So is it just me or is the Demon Prince starting to look pretty reasonable for a support character? He seems reasonably capable of dishing out some needed damage once in a while (with Thunderstomp), and can generally fly around and cast stuff like Lore of Shadow/Death making extensive use of Tendrils of Tzeentch. A combination of Fury/Roar/Stream/Homunculus is obviously quite useful here for extra casting/protection/damage. Whichever you feel you could use more of, really.

Not the bestest option evar, but I think more useful than before with these main lores getting such a drastic overhaul.

Azmodian
12-07-2010, 21:45
Posted my army under the Army list forum but this thread is where I've found the best advice from (well the old one that is now this one lol)

Insight would be great

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266441

teleologica
12-07-2010, 21:56
DP's better, but still hideously overcosted.

The problem is that Tendrils is great, but they make you spend 460 points + mark + 60 points + maybe another 40 on other gifts to get it.

OK, now you're getting S5 Thunderstomp, which I admit is nice; Stream, which is nice (but not exclusive to the prince); and better non-Tz lores. Although then you're back to the less than uber 5++ and no armour.

This guy's still overcosted by about 50% I'm afraid, all because Tendrils exists. Really, remove that from the book, and make this guy (and all his options) cost a third less, and we have another good, useful but not OP model.

Zangor
12-07-2010, 22:16
while I do agree that you can get something just as good (or better) than a DP for a smaller costs, i am still willing to field one simply because i love my DP :p I guess the only unique strength of the DP is its versatility, that i cant both do well in CC and as a caster + its ability to move around fast.

captainAurelius
12-07-2010, 22:18
Average in both departments.

Jericho
12-07-2010, 22:31
Right, only a 5++. I thought it was 4++ naturally, which would have gone a long way towards making them more useful. If only they had Chaos Armor and/or 4++ natural then they might be worth the huge points sink.

I guess unmarked Sorcs with Blood of Tzeentch for largely the same effect at much lower cost/higher customizability will do. Carry on then :p

Zangor
12-07-2010, 22:32
Its pretty hard to find something in the WoC army that combines the two better then the DP though.

captainAurelius
12-07-2010, 22:48
Perhaps..

A Socerer Lord on a Chaos Dragon would beg to differ. :evilgrin:

Seriously though I'd rather pay less for one job done well, than more for two done not so well. The survivability is a big, if not the biggest issue in regard to price. I am also biased because I find the model less than attractive.

Zangor
12-07-2010, 23:02
I do agree a lot on the survivability. I would actually go as for as to say that in many battles its almost useless due to its very low level of survivability. At best it has a 4+ ward and 2+ vs. spells.

Also if its a lvl 4 tzeentch wizard with tendrils it would not even fit a 2000 pts army.

All together it has very limited usefulness. BUT i do love my DP model soooo much so I probably wont be able to prevent myself from fielding it occasionally.

Edit: actually now that you mentioned the dragon mount... a well equipped sorc lord on a manticore would not cost much more then a buffed up DP, but be a LOT better.

Peregijn
13-07-2010, 06:53
Perhaps..

A Socerer Lord on a Chaos Dragon would beg to differ. :evilgrin:

Seriously though I'd rather pay less for one job done well, than more for two done not so well. The survivability is a big, if not the biggest issue in regard to price. I am also biased because I find the model less than attractive.

a sorcerer lord on a dragon is also costs 200 points more (if you go all in on magic items and gifts), you can field a horde of 40 marauders with great weapons for that.

true that the dragon sorcerer is a lot better in combat and in casting than the demon prince but we pay for that dearly.

geldedgoat
13-07-2010, 07:23
I haven't read the relevant sections of the new rulebook yet (or any at all for that matter, haha), but after hearing that we can add units from other armies, I've been thinking of adding some shooting to my Tzeentch army in the form of Flamers of Tzeentch.

Urdokadin
13-07-2010, 07:41
You can't "add" anything unless it's a house rule, you can have allies in multiplayer games, but then those flamers of yours would be from an entirely separate army with it's own general and such.

Roark
13-07-2010, 09:44
Anyone rate Manticores at all?

I was kinda hoping they'd be classified as "Monstrous Beasts" (like Dark Pegasi) for the combined profile and saves, but alas...

The mitigating factors for their 7th Ed. suckiness seem to be that they give +1AS, Large Target is basically gone, and Frenzy is a bit better. Have I missed anything?

If not, then I regret that I probably still won't take one... but I really did want to!!

Still, having no save is just begging for a nasty template. Can anyone convince me otherwise???

Poseidal
13-07-2010, 09:55
I've made a fist list for 8th, taking advice from this thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266534

What is the standard game size going to be do people think, as that's still 2250?

teleologica
13-07-2010, 10:27
I haven't read the relevant sections of the new rulebook yet (or any at all for that matter, haha), but after hearing that we can add units from other armies, I've been thinking of adding some shooting to my Tzeentch army in the form of Flamers of Tzeentch.


You can't "add" anything unless it's a house rule, you can have allies in multiplayer games, but then those flamers of yours would be from an entirely separate army with it's own general and such.

Yeah, the section on allies only officially deals with allied armies in multiplayer games.

However there's no reason not to use those rules for allied contingents under one player's control, as long as your opponent agrees. Having said that, I'd say you should only do this for theme rather than to min/max the most powerful army you can.

Personally, if you tried to bring a unit of the most bent and OP units in one of the best books in the game, just to 'add a bit of shooting', I'd tell you to go forth and procreate. :p

(Only joking, you're obv not trying to do this, I'm just making the point that the old Chaos Mortals/Beasts/Daemons list can't be recreated in its old form because both WoC and DoC are much better than they used to be in those days.)

geldedgoat
13-07-2010, 10:41
Awww... :( Way to shatter all my hopes and dreams of an army of Tzeentch followers doing battle alongside Tzeentch demons.

captainAurelius
13-07-2010, 13:22
a sorcerer lord on a dragon is also costs 200 points more (if you go all in on magic items and gifts), you can field a horde of 40 marauders with great weapons for that.

Of course. I was being a bit silly. Just wanted to put it out there.

I think the real question is how many marauders can you buy for the Socerer on Chaos Dragon in total? Let's see you work that out! :D

Peregijn
13-07-2010, 16:13
Of course. I was being a bit silly. Just wanted to put it out there.

I think the real question is how many marauders can you buy for the Socerer on Chaos Dragon in total? Let's see you work that out! :D

uhm... uhm... goes looking for a calculator fully upgraded sorcerer on a dragon is uhm... 780p? (still dont have my book on me)
lets say we i think i will put them in 2 horde units of 49 with great weapons full command group and mark of khorn. and than i have enough left over for a small anvil of 25 mark of tzeentch marauders also with a full command group.

whoot with out a calculator.

an other question: Trogg our friendly neighborhood troll king acts like a BSB. the new rules say that if a BSB flees he is automatically killed bravely defending his flag. so now if Trogg flees he is dead... defending the rotten fish he found on his way over to the place he decided to flee from.:eyebrows:

i really hope i misunderstand this one... seems to work this way for the slann... if his unit of temple guard flees the slann is dead because he stay's behind to defend the armie's flag

inq.serge
13-07-2010, 16:21
Nope, The King lets your trolls and such re-roll break tests just like a BSB would let you.

Anyhow.

Chaos lady, Book of secrets, Necrotic phylactery, dragon-helm, roar, third eye, MoS, Dragon, shield and flail.

Blood of tzeentch (to avoid miscasts and actually throwing a spell or 2 of higher casting value) OR Warrior familiar (to kill champs and stuff before the combat so that I won't need to challenge them and could instead destroy the units in close-combat) ?

theSkullduggery1
13-07-2010, 16:22
I had not heard or read that rule yet. Does that mean that a unit with a BSB can not elect to flee as a charge reaction without killing the BSB, or is this just if you flee from close combat?

Peregijn
13-07-2010, 16:33
only if it flees from combat, just like all the other banners.
so you can still flee from a charge, or flee from panic or flee because you like running and screaming. only if you are beaten in combat and fail your brake test you lose all your banners, including your bsb.

i would go for the warrior familiar. you have the range attacks already with 2 breath weapons, roar and spells, if you want to kill units without being challenged by a smug with a mustage than go with the warior familair and beat the crap out of that unit, just dont try it on dwarfs or any other unit champion with T4 and huge armor save

theSkullduggery1
13-07-2010, 16:42
Ok, that was what my guess was but I wasn't sure if they were trying to make the BSB be an honor guy that will not refuse a fight. With some of the new stuff that came out, nothing would really surprise me anymore.

Jericho
13-07-2010, 17:13
I'm still going to build my DP's, if nothing else just for the models. Bel'akor and Azazel demand to be painted, and I am helpless to resist!

Zangor
13-07-2010, 17:27
Post pics please when the job is done! I just love DP models...

Morthak
13-07-2010, 20:44
Played two games to day, and I must say, a lvl4 of Tzeentch rocks!

I had this setup:

Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch lvl4
Disc of Tzeentch, Charmed shield, Talisman of Preservation, Blood of Tzeentch, Conjoined Homonculus and Third Eye of Tzeentch.

He was priceless. stealing lores, adding 5 to each cast, and even +D3 when the casting value was failed. Rolling two dice, I once rolled a 1 and a 2. re-rolling the 2 with BoT made it a 3, still failed, but by adding 2 with CH I still passed the spell, and kept casting. Much to the dismay of my opponent who cheered every time I seemed to have failed. He was able to skip around the battlefield fearing only cannons, so I tried to remain out of sight. I failed, as I didn't see the popemobile having clear view at me.

Lovely.

Also, 30 marauders of tzeentch with la+shields, with a character with Ironcurse Icon proved nigh idomitable. Sadly, lore of shadow weakened them pretty hard, and they got beaten up by flaggelants and the redirected pope-mobile. Just don't get them flanked, whatever you do.

Morthak

Irbian
13-07-2010, 21:08
would you use your jugger exalted as bsb?

Dez
13-07-2010, 22:24
How do people feel about Vilitch now, with a lvl 1 or 2 sorcerer with Blood of Tzeentch?

Zangor
13-07-2010, 22:45
I dont think hes worth hes price. If I were to field him with another mage I would probably have that other mage carry the puppet instead of the blood, since it will offer Vilitch some protection if he miscasts.

Angelust
14-07-2010, 00:03
I think losing the disc is too big of an issue.

If you're going to have a foot sorcerer, you might as well use a BRB lore and tool him up the way you want.

The dice stealing mechanic would be awesome if you had access to something like Shadows.

Kerill
14-07-2010, 00:49
Ok, finished Character section, and added a section on special characters. Its a bit terse in places, again due to the character limit. I've added a link to the character section in the first post and when I get around to tidying up my word document I'll see if I can upload it to the first post.

I had to drop the manticore and dragon section and then saw this:



Anyone rate Manticores at all?

I was kinda hoping they'd be classified as "Monstrous Beasts" (like Dark Pegasi) for the combined profile and saves, but alas...

The mitigating factors for their 7th Ed. suckiness seem to be that they give +1AS, Large Target is basically gone, and Frenzy is a bit better. Have I missed anything?

Still, having no save is just begging for a nasty template. Can anyone convince me otherwise???

You've missed the fact that they no longer break ranks and terror is weaker, although now enemy units don't get US against it. Also bear in mind the problems for characters against unit champions- if the rider kills the champ the manticore can't attack and you will be testing to break against static CR with Ld8. As a result stream of corruption to get overkill is mandatory, and I would consider taking a warrior familiar as well (which means no blood of Tzeentch). You will need to be very careful with it though although it can take down missile and cavalry units quite nicely it will struggle against infantry if there is a champion present (and there will be). A nurgle mage riding a manticore is quite nice as well I think since they can give it regen and can, arguably (as is mentioned in the nurgle chariot section in characters bit of my tactica) grant it a further -1 against shooting and can snipe champions in the magic phase) So overall it can be a bit safer against shooting, thunderstomp makes it better in combat but champions can negate it altogether. The crown of command is a good investment as a result.

You can use a troll shield to shield the manticore for the first turn, maybe second from cannonballs and to get the -1 against shooting. The latter depends on the size of your manticore model of course. You can also use a unit of horsemen to screen it against bolt throwers and arrows.

If you have the model though, you might as well try it. My ancient "chaos lord on griffin" model will be going out for a spin when I get around to repainting it :)

@Jericho the DP can also be screened in this way if there is no terrain to hide behind.


@Irbian, Jugger is risky for the bsb, I'd consider mounting the general on a jugger (with appropriate defences) but I'd keep the bsb on foot- also infantry benefit more from the bsb whereas the jugger tends to be off with cavalry.

Asymmetric
14-07-2010, 01:03
You missed out Kholek in the character section btw.



Special Characters
Galrauch

For 46 points more than a tooled Tzeentch daemon prince you get an absolute combat monster. 6+ ward and true line of sight means he will suffer against artillery armies, although no large target=better off against bolt throwers.

I like Galrauch a lot more in 8th than 7th and he is IMO cheaper and better than a dragon rider. He has Ld9 and with the bsb nearby can now re-roll his spirit of galrauch tests making him a lot better. I6 is very good for a dragon and is useful against certain spells. He has two basic breath weapons and can use each separately once (canít use them both at the same time) which is great stuff- S4 is better than stream of corruption and S2+3 save is pretty good against high armour saves. Then we look at the best part- breath of change. Obviously 2D6 hits in combat taking T tests or dying will mean heavy cavalry die in droves. More importantly, in a challenge this means galrauch can slay ANYTHING in the game. 7T tests on average (and remember you ALWAYS fail on a 6- p10 brb) against a star dragon rider there is a good chance that both the rider (two or three tests at T3) and the star dragon (four or five tests at T6) will die. The dragon wonít even have a chance to attack. Knowing all 6 Tzeentch spells is cool. If you do run him a 4+ regen spell or troll shield might be worthwhile.


Those are actually pretty compelling arguments to give Galruach a try in 8th. Breath of change looks nasty now.

Kerill
14-07-2010, 05:14
You missed out Kholek in the character section btw.



Those are actually pretty compelling arguments to give Galruach a try in 8th. Breath of change looks nasty now.


I did indeed, that's what you get for doing it at 04:00am ;) Sadly I don't think I'll have the space to add it in. Personally I think Kholek is only for bigger games (4000 points or more), in smaller games he is too expensive and you lose magic. He also has to be the general in smaller games and I've always felt shaggoths should head up a flank and is generally an awful lot faster than the infantry who benefit most from his Ld9. I also think he is higher risk and less reward than Galrauch who does indeed look nasty now for a few points more. I also had to cut some bits since skulltaker will usually kill Galrauch with ease due to higher I and WS, re-rolls to hit and KB on 5 or 6.

I've also been thinking about daemon princes- it bothers me how poor they are compared to the old fluff especially and since my General has always been a hard-case in my mind. Descending into daemonhood is more like it, but then I realised I could use the Galrauch rules for him with a few changes:

Chaos Armour (replaces scaly skin)- 3+ save

Master of Magic- Mindwarper knows all six spells from the lore of Tzeentch.

Instability- for a Daemon Prince as mighty as Mindwarper to manifest in the mortal realms far from the polar gates when the winds of chaos are not blowing strongly is difficult, and the manifestation is often unstable. As a result Mindwarper must take a Ld test every turn to maintain his hold on the mortal realm. If failed he cannot move, cast or use his chaotic powers. In close combat he may only use half his attacks and, in addition, must roll three dice to establish what damage the instability causes to his form- for each die on a roll of 4+ he takes a S6 hit. This will be added to the opponents CR if in combat. Due to instability he only has a 6+ ward save.

Flames of Tzeentch- Mindwarper can summon a coruscation of slame from the realm of chaos and project it from his talons. These attacks count as breath weapons and there are three forms of flame he may use-
Flickering flames of Tzeentch (S4)
Purple fire of mutation (S2, -3 AS)
Flames of change (breath of change).

Might be an option for those who like the daemon prince model but think he is far too weedy to be a daemon prince. I will do it if our group moves to 2500 and my sorceror lord fulfills certain fluff conditions.

I can then also use him to lead my daemon army as well (as a lord of change).

Hashulaman
14-07-2010, 05:23
I see people giving Tzeentch Sorcerer Lords stuff for combat and not magic such as biting blade and stream. My question is why? Why would you put a sorcerer lord(which would probably be your general due to points limitations) in close combat? Ive never seen them as killy in close combat. Yes the are better than other casters, but not by much.

Kerill
14-07-2010, 05:30
I see people giving Tzeentch Sorcerer Lords stuff for combat and not magic such as biting blade and stream. My question is why? Why would you put a sorcerer lord(which would probably be your general due to points limitations) in close combat? Ive never seen them as killy in close combat. Yes the are better than other casters, but not by much.

For taking down war machines and missile troops. Also with a charge in the flank giving +2CR (+1charge, +1 flank) and lots of hits from the stream you can turn a difficult combat around- the enemy may even fail their fear test. Biting blade is only 5 points in case you need to smack a wraith and helps if you do enter combat against troops with a better than 6+ save. Its not essential, but then again its only 5 points.

You are right he isn't a combat character per se but he can easily take down certain units as mentioned. And since most Tzeentch spells don't need LOS he has a lot more freedom to do so. Again stream doesn't have to be used in combat, if you get an opportunity you can use it as it was intended- down the flank of a unit of 21 elven elites 7 wide and 3 deep is 9 dead elves.

Hashulaman
14-07-2010, 07:53
All this seems pretty situational. If i take my Sorc Lord that far up the field he'd eat arrow pretty fast. Even a 2+/3++ does but so much.

CmdrLaw
14-07-2010, 08:56
Thanks to the foefully inadequate Warriors of Chaos FAQ, there are a few spells where it is now not clear whether they can be cast into combat or not.

The new rules state you can't unless its type x, but they didn't clarify what the differnet chaos lore types of spell (DD, hex, etc,)

The WoC book states for the second Tzeenth spell "pick a unit", the 4th states "pick an unengaged unit" - indicating that the second CAN be engaged, but because the default is now that you can't I really have no idea what I can or can't use my spells on, which is a problem for a lvl 4 Sorceror lord.

Zangor
14-07-2010, 09:37
On the gateway it says "pick an enemy unit" as well. It is rather confusing :(

Harfaern
14-07-2010, 09:56
And what does everyone think of a unit of eight Ogres?

I would look for the 9th, for the rank bonus, but I think more than 6 Ogres is a little bit expensive for 1 unit.

I own 12 and I plan to have 2 units of 6, Mok and GW. S**k this, Lore of Metal!:D

Zaustus
14-07-2010, 09:59
Not all spells are assigned categories. Comet of Cassandora, for example, doesn't have a listed type.

The standard rule is that spells cannot be cast into close combat. This rule is bypassed for hexes and augments, but since the Tzeentch spells are not listed as either of those, clearly they do not avoid that rule, and cannot be cast into combat.

Lanparth
14-07-2010, 10:02
With the new infantry rules, is it worth taking Lances on Knights, or are the ensorced blades that much better as Combat is likely to drag out past one round of combat?

If so that R make me sad, Lances look cooler then Swords :P

chinnfrequent
14-07-2010, 10:21
Always take enscorcelled weapons.

LordoftheBrassThrone
14-07-2010, 11:26
With the new infantry rules, is it worth taking Lances on Knights, or are the ensorced blades that much better as Combat is likely to drag out past one round of combat?

If so that R make me sad, Lances look cooler then Swords :P

You could modify the lances slightly to be shorter and just look like long handled weapons. The lance that looks a bit like an axe look pretty cool like this.

captainAurelius
14-07-2010, 12:41
Or you could just use the lances anyway and count them as ensorcelled weapons, I mean the lances look like halberds mostly, one looks like an axe and one even looks like a mix between a chaos trident and a shovel. Its hardly like they're shaped medieval lances with penants fluttering all over the place. I use them as halberds for my warriors, they're quite versatile.

Zangor
14-07-2010, 12:48
In general i equip my models with the stuff i think look the coolest and dont worry much about the rules of certain weapons. Im not going to rip the arms of my marauders and reattach new ones every time i come up with a new list. I have only once had any complaints about it and when i said "hey its chaos... do you really expect it all to make sense?" he accepted it with no further moaning.

CmdrLaw
14-07-2010, 12:54
This can be annoying for your opponent if they are used to WYSIWYG, easy to forgot what things "count as" and can lead to plans going wrong and having to rewind a couple of phases because he shouldn't suffer when your models are wrong.

But its personal preference, for individual characters it's mostly irrelevant what the model has as magic items vary greatly, but for units you will be looking at what the model has for reference.

Poseidal
14-07-2010, 13:37
Just realised in my list: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266534

Hero wizards can't take shadows, so that's out.

Now, I'll probably want to change the equipment a lot now, what would I go for for a prospective Death or Fire wizard?

Zangor
14-07-2010, 13:46
Though i think most people on this forum will agree you i cant really say that I do. Because of the new rules I would have to either field a useless army or buy a new one. Im not going to stop using an army that i have spend hundreds and hundreds of hours (if not thousands) assembling, painting and converting, simply because of misleading details. If my opponent is unable to appreciate my beautiful army because of those misleading details I wouldnt want to play with him.

CmdrLaw
14-07-2010, 14:16
Saying an army becomes useless because of a rules change is a bit of an exaggeration.

I am in the process of converting 60 CW from HW to Halberds but no-one would have minded too much If asked if they "counts as" buts that’s because I play with a relaxed group. I just prefer to have the models WYSIWYG.

If it was more formal, with someone I didn't know or at a big event I would not feel comfortable straying too much from WSYIWYG.

But as long both parties are VERY aware of what is what and no-one minds then there should be no issue :)

Hydex
14-07-2010, 14:57
How do you use a sorcerer lord on disc? It looks much too vulnerable to me, especially to spells allowing no saves.

Most of my opponent wouldn't hesitate to waste an entire magic phase just to kill my lord, it's probably worth it.

I played against a skaven, he took 6 dices to cast the 13th spell just on me, got irresistible and I died just like that :(

Zangor
14-07-2010, 14:59
Saying an army becomes useless because of a rules change is a bit of an exaggeration.

Ok change useless to crappy then... still dont like playing with a crappy army though :)

Poseidal
14-07-2010, 15:04
How do you use a sorcerer lord on disc? It looks much too vulnerable to me, especially to spells allowing no saves.

Most of my opponent wouldn't hesitate to waste an entire magic phase just to kill my lord, it's probably worth it.

I played against a skaven, he took 6 dices to cast the 13th spell just on me, got irresistible and I died just like that :(

If your lord is on a disc, the skaven player cheated. Someone mounted on a Disc isn't a valid target for the 13th spell.

Usually I find things will bounce off his 3+ Ward (this gets better now I can take a 'true' ward rather than the Shooting/Magic Missile onle one now.

If it's one that instant kills it's usually on an initiative test, and they're usually missing out on using a template for a single model (which has a 5/6 chance of surviving).

CmdrLaw
14-07-2010, 15:21
How do you use a sorcerer lord on disc? It looks much too vulnerable to me, especially to spells allowing no saves.

Most of my opponent wouldn't hesitate to waste an entire magic phase just to kill my lord, it's probably worth it.

I played against a skaven, he took 6 dices to cast the 13th spell just on me, got irresistible and I died just like that :(

Unfortunately spells like dwellers from below will get him in a unit anyway.

You can't plan for everything unfortunately.

captainAurelius
14-07-2010, 15:28
How do you use a sorcerer lord on disc? It looks much too vulnerable to me, especially to spells allowing no saves.
Most of my opponent wouldn't hesitate to waste an entire magic phase just to kill my lord, it's probably worth it.

The most straightforward answer to this question is: Enchanted Shield is god, mandatory equipment for this chap. Gives him a 1+ Armour save. Then combine ward save items with his MoT. For example Golden Eye or the new 4+ ward save in the common magical items list. There is also the helm of luck for a first failed armour save reroll. He really is hugely survivable lots of players give up shooting at him.




Ok change useless to crappy then... still dont like playing with a crappy army though

Dude are you talking about the army as a whole or some of the old wargear options we might have used but are now not as good as others?


I'm in the process of chopping up my lovely painted warriors and giving them halberds, its a bit sad, but I want to get everything WYSIWYG just for my own satisfaction. Will see if I'm so bothered after the 30 odd marauder great weapons. Its such a personal and subjective thing and people are pretty laid back about it come game time there is no point having a tit for tat on the subject.

Tournaments, fair enough.
Aesthetic value, fair enough.

Simples!

Brother Drakist
14-07-2010, 15:40
Ok change useless to crappy then... still dont like playing with a crappy army though :)

Mwahahaha I am going with a themed Marauder army that will sport 3x10 man Marauder Horseman, and 10 Chaos Hounds to start. The crappiness is strong with this one(meaning me). :D

Honestly if what your fielding isn't fun for you then why bother. Wins will come but you have to be happy with what you are putting on the table as well.

Hydex
14-07-2010, 16:52
Unfortunately spells like dwellers from below will get him in a unit anyway.

You can't plan for everything unfortunately.

That's true... It also works with Death spells, 2d6-S or T, though I still have my ward against them it may hurt.


If your lord is on a disc, the skaven player cheated. Someone mounted on a Disc isn't a valid target for the 13th spell.

Oops, I didn't know that. I'll tell him next time !


Usually I find things will bounce off his 3+ Ward (this gets better now I can take a 'true' ward rather than the Shooting/Magic Missile onle one now.

If it's one that instant kills it's usually on an initiative test, and they're usually missing out on using a template for a single model (which has a 5/6 chance of surviving).

There are some insta kills on strength or toughness tests too but I agree using a template spell which can deviate on a single model seems dumb but it has a chance to kill a huge part of my strategy and 400 victory points if it works. I guess it's not the first thing to try though.

Jericho
14-07-2010, 17:14
@Jericho the DP can also be screened in this way if there is no terrain to hide behind.

That's a very good point as well. Still probably not worth the points but I want to paint :D

As for your Gaulrauch breakdown, he actually gets some interesting rules in 8th doesn't he? Thunderstomp, relatively resistant to most of those characteristic test or die spells, and those breath attacks will give him PLENTY of ways to rape enemy faces in challenges. Very, very interesting.


Came up with an idea for an Exalted build off the top of my head, could someone with the army book/BRB handy please confirm if it's legit?

Exalted w/ MoT, Book of Secrets, Spell Familiar, Ironcurse Icon and the ignore first hit shield. Am I totally remembering the new common item costs wrong or does this actually work? Him joining a unit might not be completely terrible, at least until he blows up.

Might not work though, since I don't know what type of item the Ironcurse Icon is.

Morthak
14-07-2010, 17:45
@ Jericho, that's perfectly legal.

,Morthak

teleologica
14-07-2010, 18:16
You mean because Warriors of Chaos have a special dispensation to take two Enchanted Items when they want to? ;)

Morthak
14-07-2010, 18:18
Oops, that's quite a dumb action! No BoS and Ironcurse Icon. Sorry :angel:

Morthak

Lungboy
14-07-2010, 18:18
Aye, Ironcurse and Book are both Enchanted.

Kerill
14-07-2010, 18:31
Indeed, the charmed shield probably the most useful common item for us in the whole lost, and for a measly 5 points.

Skogla
14-07-2010, 19:01
With the new rules for stonethrowers I think the Hellcannon combined with the -1LD banner will cause havoc against some armies :D even tho most ppl will have a BSB now

Jericho
14-07-2010, 19:24
Target the BSB's unit and hope he's the first one to fail LoS or break :p

Sucks about the Ironcurse Icon btw, I was really hoping it was Talisman but on some level I think I knew that it wasn't.

Vaktathi
14-07-2010, 19:31
So I'm reading through the 8th Ed book now and redoing my WoC list, but still want to keep a fairly simple theme of lots of Warriors, lots of Knights, and big killy JuggerLord.

Can such a build be competitive in 8th, I really, really *hate* the marauder models and don't really want to buy, build and paint any, but I do realize from a gaming standpoint they are great.

If this is possible to be competitive, how would you kit out Warriors and Knights, and for a Juggerlord (since no save can be better than 1+, goodbye -1 save) how would you kit one out?

thanks in advance.

Jericho
14-07-2010, 19:44
I wouldn't be betting on cavalry/daemonic mounts quite as hard as in the last. Much harder to break units quickly with them, and Look out, sir! with the mounts is all screwy now.

Armies will largely be based around infantry blocks and support units, with more emphasis on monstrous infantry (Ogres/Trolls) than before thanks to their new rules. Hellcannons are great.

For the Jugger Lord, you really have to make sure he's protected since Look out, sir! will be an issue. Giving him a ward save is pretty standard, and there are now 2 4++ wards available in the new book. He can also take the Dawnstone to re-roll armor saves. Taking the heavy armor that grants 4++, Dawnstone to re-roll, and combining a mundane shield and one-handed magic weapon means he's quite well protected. 1+ re-rollable save, 4++ ward, MR for him and his unit from the Jugger, and I believe 30 points of gear left for a weapon. Even Sword of Might will still be good, as it's cheap and 6S6 attacks is no joke. He could also take the ASF sword, as this combined with his high I value means he'll be re-rolling misses against all but the fastest of opponents.

For gifts, Stream of Corruption should be tossed into the army list for sure, as it allows a one use only breath attack that can be used in combat to inflict 2d6 auto hits. Very handy for thinning down big horde units of crap models even faster.

Oh, and BSB's got a big boost, so expect them to be in damn near every 8th ed list you see.

Zangor
14-07-2010, 19:48
I dont think marauder units is a "must" in competitive WoC armies. Personally i prefer warriors in units of 18 (6x3) with halberds and MoK or units of 20 (5x4) with HW and shields with MoT for a nice 5+ ward save :)
The MoK unit is very killy and the MoT is a nice tough anvil. There are other good ways to field warriors, but these are probably the most common at the moment.

Edit: my knights i field 6 wide with MoK and use them to support attacks of other units. I rarely give them any command at all. Its not a bad idea to keep them close to the BSB if they have MoK because it will help them to resist charging the wrong units.

Forgot to say that i usually have a musician and a standard in the warrior units...

Vaktathi
14-07-2010, 20:08
Are WoC allowed to take all the new "common" magic items in the book? That'd open up some new options for a Lord build. Primarily I want the juggerlord for looks, it's an amazing model and really was what bootstrapped me to start the army.

With 18 Warriors, would you still put in a full command? What about Knights? I know people weren't fond of anything but a musician for Knights previously.

Lungboy
14-07-2010, 20:21
Are WoC allowed to take all the new "common" magic items in the book?

Yes, although if the item is in both the BRB and the AB, you have to use the WoC price. This makes Enchanted Shields more expensive, but Biting Blades cheaper, for example.

Malorian
14-07-2010, 20:25
Yes, although if the item is in both the BRB and the AB, you have to use the WoC price. This makes Enchanted Shields more expensive, but Biting Blades cheaper, for example.

Where does it state this?

I keep hearing people say it but I can't find it in the book...

Kaelarr
14-07-2010, 20:36
FAQ-tastic.

Malorian
14-07-2010, 20:42
FAQ-tastic.

I just read the bret and the lizardmen one and didn't see it...

Is it in some FAQs but not in others? :confused:

Vaktathi
14-07-2010, 20:51
So here's what I'm thinking for a Juggerlord kit so far

Talisman of Preservation, Armor of Damnation, Warrior Bane, Favor of the Gods (1+ AS, 4++ Ward, reroll hits against him, reduces enemy attacks for each wound, rerolls eye of the gods)

Armor of Destiny (+mundane shield), Dawnstone, Sword of Swift Slaying (1+AS rerollable, 4++ Ward, ASF w/I7)

Talisman of Preservation, Chaos Runesword (1+ AS, 4++ Ward, WS9 A6 S6)

EDIT: A final option would be Armor of Destiny (+mundane shield), Crown of Everlasting Conquest (1+AS, 4++ Ward, 4+ Regen)

what do you think is probably the best loadout?

Skyros
14-07-2010, 21:17
Where does it state this?

I keep hearing people say it but I can't find it in the book...

I swear I read it just last night on the intro page to the list of magic items in the back.

Malorian
14-07-2010, 21:19
I swear I read it just last night on the intro page to the list of magic items in the back.

That's where I checked yesterday but couldn't find it... :confused:


To make sure I'm not thread jacking:

Sigvald just got better... he was a monster before and now you just add in rerolling to hit and rerolling a failed stupidity test as long as you have a BSB.

My regular WoC opponent loves this guy so I expect to see a lot of him :(

Eta
14-07-2010, 21:25
EDIT: A final option would be Armor of Destiny (+mundane shield), Crown of Everlasting Conquest (1+AS, 4++ Ward, 4+ Regen)

what do you think is probably the best loadout?

At least the last one is bad, you have to choose between ward save and regeneration now, you mustn't make both.

Greetings
Eta

Vaktathi
14-07-2010, 21:31
Ah, good to know. Of the other 3 then, any opinions?

Hydex
14-07-2010, 21:37
I just read the bret and the lizardmen one and didn't see it...
Bret FAQ, page two:

Page 60 Ė Common Magic Items.
Note that if a magic item is listed in both an army book and the
Warhammer rulebook, use the points value given in the army
book, with the rule printed in the Warhammer rulebook.

You read it, huh.

Malorian
14-07-2010, 21:40
Bret FAQ, page two:

Page 60 Ė Common Magic Items.
Note that if a magic item is listed in both an army book and the
Warhammer rulebook, use the points value given in the army
book, with the rule printed in the Warhammer rulebook.

You read it, huh.

Ok... I skimmed it... :angel:


Thanks :)

Jericho
15-07-2010, 00:59
Ooh just found a juicy new contradiction in the rules!

Character Mounts section, p104.


As with the definition for the cavalry troop type, a cavalry mount's key definition lies in the fact that it has only a single Wound. Therefore, if a character is riding a mount with a single Wound, he is riding a cavalry mount.

So the VFBRB (I love that term) lists Juggernauts and whatnot as MB, WB etc. but as all these WoC mounts have 1 wound the listing for cavalry says they count as regular cavalry when ridden.

The WoC mount section strongly seems to suggest the same thing.

So if for some stupid-ass reason you ever see a Disc, Jugger, or Demonic Steed without a rider, then it counts as something other than cavalry. If ridden, it should be cavalry.

... So there is a strong case for WoC getting Look out, sir! rolls for being with cavalry units. Nice. Still nothing for when they join Monstrous Beasts or Monstrous Infantry. Not so good.

... And even worse, the Palanquin under this rule interpretation would count as cavalry when ridden and would disallow the rider from claiming LoS when joining infantry. Pants!

Hooray for needing yet another Errata/FAQ :D

Oberon
15-07-2010, 01:09
Well the BRB says juggernaut is monstrous beast, so when ridden it's monstrous cavalry, no LOS from knights. Apparently juggernauts are so monstrous that they are MB even with one wound... You'll notice that the part you quoted links back to the definition of a cavalry model, it doesn't just say 1 wound=cavalry. We'll have to accept the other unit type-rules too.

By the way, discs can join units, but can't use their flying movement so it's only useful if you start the game in the unit or end your movement in there, just for a turn. Disc is WB so becomes cavalry, yay?

selone
15-07-2010, 01:30
That's where I checked yesterday but couldn't find it... :confused:

No need for FAQ page 500 first paragraph :)

Roark
15-07-2010, 01:45
Hey guys, you might want to note that Nurgle knights have a useful combo with fear.

Enemy fails fear test = WS1. Striking at Nurgle at -1WS = WS0!!!

So if an enemy fails their fear test against Nurgle knights, they can't strike at all.

Certainly will be useful (but not reliable) against the odd infantry block, eh...

Jericho
15-07-2010, 01:47
:eyebrows: Hadn't thought of that. Very interesting concept, and makes you wonder if WS0 = you hit them automatically, since it's not on the chart. I'm not sure if this will get a FAQ but it probably needs it :p

Nevermind, found the rule for WS0. Cannot attack, and is automatically hit in combat. Neat :D

Oberon
15-07-2010, 01:52
Yes, ws0 models are hit automatically and can't strike back. Niiice.

Roark
15-07-2010, 02:02
They are not hit automatically in this case, though, because the Mark of Nurgle only applies when the enemy models are striking your Nurglites.

Cartoon
15-07-2010, 02:50
So I've been thinking that the Necrotic Phylactery is probably a good investment on any lord level character that has the +4 ward armor. Since it's a talisman it can't be used with the amulet of preservation, but with all those spells that insta-kill you if you fail a characteristic test and it's immunity to poison and the lore of death it seems like it might be a nice insurance policy to slap on a lord. Its low point cost seems like a great buy to protect yourself from losing your (probably) general in one go. Thoughts?

Oberon
15-07-2010, 03:12
You could get a nice ward with armour of destiny, leaving the talisman slot free for the phylactery. It would downgrade the sorcs armour save hugely though, from 2+ to 5+ :o (I use enchanted shield normally for my lord, on foot).

Cartoon
15-07-2010, 04:03
Yeah there certainly is a cost to using it, but man it really hurts to fail one of those tests and poof goes your sorc lord. Death has a few nasty spells as well, so it's nice to not have to worry about them (on the sorc lord anyway).

Roark
15-07-2010, 04:43
Phylactery is awesome for its cost in the current environment, but as has already been said, there is really tough competition for that Talisman slot...

Kerill
15-07-2010, 04:45
If he is on foot, then another model with the collar of Khorne would give a 2+ ward save against magic if combined with a 4+ ward.

The mark on Nurgle thing is interesting, not sure if its what GW intended, but I can't find anywhere where it says in the 8th edition rulebook that if your WS is 0 you automatically miss, so I think its still 5+ if anyone can point me to where it says this I'd be grateful. Also, on page 50 it states that regardless of modifiers a natural roll of 6 always hits.

Roark
15-07-2010, 05:41
Actually, in hindsight, now that I've looked at the rulebook in detail, I think they would hit on a 6. Natural 6 always hits.

Doesn't say anything about WS0 attacks (it only mentions WS0 models not being able to defend themselves), so this is all we have to go by.

That's still pretty good for Nurgle fear-causers, though.

Kerill
15-07-2010, 05:58
Doesn't say anything about WS0 attacks (it only mentions WS0 models not being able to defend themselves), so this is all we have to go by.



Indeed, that's all I could find so I think Nurgle models will still be struck on a 5+. Its another plus of the palanquin in nurgle marauders.


On another note, hopefully I'l be able to get some game(s) in next weekend , I've noticed you have a battle report up, as does Zaustus. Are you guys going to (semi)regularly add battle reports to those threads? If so it would be cool and I can add the battle report links on the first page the tactica for people to find more easily.

I don't want to link single reports since after a while there would be too many, but any threads which run for a while would be very cool to have for easy access.

Also if anyone starts a battle report thread where they will be posting battles and want me to add a link, PM me. :cool:

sayles78
15-07-2010, 08:16
I copied this from our Army List thread because of the points raised about mounting a Tzeentch Sorcerer on a 'Barbed Chaos Steed' instead of the industry standard 'Disc'. What do you guys think?




@Sayles, I'd definitely go for a sorceror lord rather than a sorceror, and I'd cut the marauder horsemen down to get some banners for the chaos warriors. Not sure about running your sorceror free on a chaos steed though, even with a 4+ LOS from nearby horsemen (can't get LOS from the knights I think since they have a champion and thus would need to be 6 strong). Disk is hard to resist :)


Done. My Sorc is now level 4.

Is a Disc that much better than a steed? The steed is barded, and thus improves my saving throw by 1. The disc allows slightly faster movement (3" or 6" march), but other than that, there is no real difference except terrain issues (which we dont have a lot of). Plus, there are spells in the game that affect flyers only, or do not allow flying, and the disc only has a move of 1. Also, like you said, I can get LOS from my marauder horsemen. There seems to be more positives than negatives to having him on a steed than on a disc to me.

I see a lot of people with these dudes on a disc, and I did at first too, but I quickly changed my mind when I saw the sorcerer on Chaos Steed model in the COLLECTORS section of the GW website. I love that model!!!

The model in question: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1380006&prodId=prod1130362

I'm struggling to find spare points for any banners for warriors, but have put banner of rage on my Knights for some extra punch. I am playing against VC's, so I dont even see any Banners that are essential anyway. Have I overlooked some?

Sayles

Hashulaman
15-07-2010, 08:25
I think knights, while nerfed in a sense, are not completly useless, give one unit the strider banner to make travel through terrain safer and get that nice cover modifer, try to come up on the enemy flank and work your way down the enemy line. Granted this is a longshot, but if they shoot at the knights they arent shooting at your warriors.

Jericho
15-07-2010, 14:45
For finding a use for Knights, how about giving them the cheapo flaming attacks banner? Makes killing the big gribbly monsters a bit easier if you can bypass their regeneration, and they have the speed to get stuck in there before the Hydra/whatever smashes into any infantry and starts smashing things with breath/Thunderstomp attacks/whatever. In this role I'm almost tempted to say lances could be useful. Almost :D

Zangor
15-07-2010, 14:50
Another interesting way of using knights would be to give them the +1 LD banner and use that shadow spell where they use their LD as strength. That would make a both fast and extremely killy unit :evilgrin:

Oberon
15-07-2010, 14:54
Yeah, because str 8 just isn't enough?

inq.serge
15-07-2010, 14:58
Yeah, because str 8 just isn't enough?

Strength 9 is better against steam tanks :p .

How about the move through terrain banner (on knights)?

Kerill
15-07-2010, 15:00
Is a Disc that much better than a steed? The steed is barded, and thus improves my saving throw by 1. The disc allows slightly faster movement (3" or 6" march), but other than that, there is no real difference except terrain issues (which we dont have a lot of). Plus, there are spells in the game that affect flyers only, or do not allow flying, and the disc only has a move of 1. Also, like you said, I can get LOS from my marauder horsemen.

Well the disk also gives you a LOS from marauder horsemen.

The main reason for the disk is that, not only is it faster than the chaos steed it is also far more manoueverable. You can easily fly over your or your opponents units, which you can't do with a steed. A disk rider is almost impossible to pin down by conventional troops in order to get a charge off. Due to its manoueverability it is also easier to get a flank charge off on units. If you want your sorceror to do magic and harrassment (bloodcurdling roar, stream of corruption, war machine and missile troop hunting) the disk is far better. For example, against empire and orcs and goblins war machines are often behind enemy blocks of troops and shoot between small gaps- for a disk its no problem to fly over, if on a steed you will never get a chance to charge them.

The manouverability also makes it easier to get out of the firing arc of missile troops and sometimes war machines (although this is harder in 8th since not all terrain will block LOS). Having said that a chaos steed in a unit can't be picked out for small arms fire either

Lore of heavens does effect flyers with its special bonus but they won't always be targetting your flying unit. And even if the do, 3.5 S4 hits=0.2 wounds on the most common sorceror lord build.

Finally the disk causes fear and makes you immune to fear, both of which can be handy at times (the former is more useful than in 7th edition, the second is less usefull than in 7th )

Now if you want your sorceror lord to fight then the barded steed is the best choice to get th 1+ save. For example you could run a sorceror lord with sword of might, charmed shield, dawnstone+arcane item in a unit with chaos knights with the banner of rage= 4S5 attacks isn't bad, the knights protect him from shooting and he's cheaper than a fully kitted disk rider.

Disk is generally better for casting and harassment, steed for combat.

Zangor
15-07-2010, 15:05
Yeah, because str 8 just isn't enough?

15 pts is extremely cheap to increase both str. and LD of a unit.

Kerill
15-07-2010, 15:34
As I understand it though it only increases strength for to wound rolls, not for the AS modifiers, so against T3 its a bit of a waste. Having said that it would also increase the S of the chaos steeds so might be more useful on a banner of rage unit. Although whether they would use the riders leadership or not I'm not 100%- probably

Zangor
15-07-2010, 15:39
Does the banner of rage give the mounts frenzy as well?

Kerill
15-07-2010, 15:45
Does the banner of rage give the mounts frenzy as well?

From my reading it does, it gives the unit frenzy, as opposed to mark of khorne which only gives the riders frenzy (which won't transfer to the steeds)

theSkullduggery1
15-07-2010, 19:01
15 pts is extremely cheap to increase both str. and LD of a unit.

15 pts + the power dice that you may want to use on a different spell. But if you were already planning on using this spell I guess it is cheap.

Not something I'm going to change my list because of.

Hydex
15-07-2010, 20:22
I was thinking about the Book of Secrets, is it really worth it now if you play a Tz Sorc lord? You get a random spell, just one.
For shadow, unless you get 2 or 3, you'll probably have to swap for for the signature spell, which has no real synergy with Tzeetsch spells. Spell 4,5 6 require a high casting roll, with only a +1 it's quite a waste of dice to try casting them...
For Death, 1,2,3,4 are useful and may be usable without throwing too many dice so it's a bit better...
Fire you can get Fireball, always useful sometimes I guess but not a game breaker for sure...

So, do you use it?

Oberon
15-07-2010, 20:37
Lore of shadows signature spell is great on its own though, lowering skills is a perfect way to protect your troops. WS3 ogres/trolls like it very much when ws4 goes to 3, or even better if it's 2. Lowering the ballistic skill of a hellblaster/handgunners is just great as we don't want them to hit us.

Death has good signature spell also, sniping is always good. Fireball is just weaker flickering fire. Just remember NOT to give the book to the lord :D

Hydex
15-07-2010, 20:45
Death has good signature spell also, sniping is always good.


Hmm, it's not really reliable sniping though :D



Just remember NOT to give the book to the lord :D

Sure :D

Oberon
15-07-2010, 21:06
Just pick your targets. Champions are ok, as are hero level wizards. Sure it's not reliable, but only a few things are. If you don't get a better sniping spell, the signature one is ok.

Jericho
15-07-2010, 21:38
I'm really considering Chaos Lord with BoS, Spell Familiar, and some combat gear. Could make a fun build sorta like the good old says with Tzeentch warrior mages :D considerably cheaper than L4 and way stabbier. That's what 260 before some combat gear? My L4's are often 400-440 so that's a steal of a deal if you ask me. And Ld9 is awesome when you're used to 8.

I think I'll try it out soon, just bought the MDF for my first ever game board today. Already have double the scenery I'll ever need to go with it :)

Hydex
15-07-2010, 22:30
It seems the new FAQ removed the "to a minimum of 1" from the mark of Nurgle. I find it a bit stupid that it can reduce WS to 0 though...

Kardon
15-07-2010, 22:59
I was thinking about the Book of Secrets, is it really worth it now if you play a Tz Sorc lord? You get a random spell, just one.
For shadow, unless you get 2 or 3, you'll probably have to swap for for the signature spell, which has no real synergy with Tzeetsch spells. Spell 4,5 6 require a high casting roll, with only a +1 it's quite a waste of dice to try casting them...
For Death, 1,2,3,4 are useful and may be usable without throwing too many dice so it's a bit better...
Fire you can get Fireball, always useful sometimes I guess but not a game breaker for sure...

So, do you use it?

BoS makes your oh so mighty lvl 3-4 sorc lord a lvl 1 sorc. Its better used on a exalted or Chaos Lord stuffed together with third eye of tz. Wich indeed looks like its gonna be fun.

Doommasters
15-07-2010, 23:12
How do you guys deal with the Slann and Lizardmen?


:-)

Hydex
15-07-2010, 23:29
BoS makes your oh so mighty lvl 3-4 sorc lord a lvl 1 sorc. Its better used on a exalted or Chaos Lord stuffed together with third eye of tz. Wich indeed looks like its gonna be fun.

In fact I thought I'd use it on my BSB :p

I was talking of the synergy with a Sorc Lord who would probably use most of my dice, with a +5 to cast. So the spell from the BSB+Book has to be useful enough to justify wasting dice to cast a spell at only +1.

Hydex
16-07-2010, 00:02
Another question btw, with the new spell classification, can Infernal Gateway still be cast in a unit engaged in close combat?

If it's considered a driect damage spell I guess not but the spell only says "pick a unit"...

Or maybe my sorc lord should just use Shadow lore, though it's mean losing a 3+ ward and a +1 to cast...

Cartoon
16-07-2010, 00:46
I love the Tzeentch lore this edition. Pandemonium is a fantastic spell with all the changes that got made, treason can still wipe out a unit of low T high Str duders like swordmasters and gateway is gateway. Flickering fire is pretty handy for a base spell too, and I think it should be pretty useful against monstrous infantry. Tzeentch is looking pretty good this edition.

I don't think gateway is able to be cast into cc, but someone more knowledgable than me has a better answer I'm sure.

Oberon
16-07-2010, 00:48
Another question btw, with the new spell classification, can Infernal Gateway still be cast in a unit engaged in close combat?

If it's considered a driect damage spell I guess not but the spell only says "pick a unit"...

Or maybe my sorc lord should just use Shadow lore, though it's mean losing a 3+ ward and a +1 to cast...

You couldn't cast it into CC before,and you can't now either. The default is that you can't cast into CC. Gateway has nothing overruling that.

MascisMan
16-07-2010, 00:54
Excuse my ignorance but this may be a dumb question. In the new errata, it is stated that Spawn no longer have the "Lurching Horror" special rule.

Does this mean that Spawn can move in the regular phase of movement (not compulsory) and therefore instinctively take a march and/or charge action? If so, do they roll 2d6 + 2d6 to charge? What happens if they roll over 7 on the first 2d6, do they then roll 3d6 for the charge move?

Also does this mean that Spawn no longer have to nominate the direction moving before rolling 2d6? Because of this their movement does NOT have to be in a straight line?

Oberon
16-07-2010, 01:04
No, they replaced lurching horror with random movement, which is exactly the same rule but a different name and described in the rulebook. Spawn stills moves in compulsory, 2d6" Note though, that charges are now completed before compulsory movement. Nothing else really changed.

Hydex
16-07-2010, 01:08
You couldn't cast it into CC before,and you can't now either. The default is that you can't cast into CC. Gateway has nothing overruling that.

Woops! :mad:

MascisMan
16-07-2010, 01:34
No, they replaced lurching horror with random movement, which is exactly the same rule but a different name and described in the rulebook. Spawn stills moves in compulsory, 2d6" Note though, that charges are now completed before compulsory movement. Nothing else really changed.

Ah I see. I don't have a copy of the new BRB yet. I didn't realize that "random movement" was a specific rule now. I thought they were just referring to the 2d6 being random.

Oh well.

Jericho
16-07-2010, 05:56
Yeah they really tightened up the Fantasy ruleset like they did with 40k (which is something I was praying for). Universal special rules, and very thorough lists of what from every army book counts as (infantry, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, monster, etc.). It's about time really :D

Anyway, I plan on playing a 1500pt game on my brand new shiny gaming table this weekend. My first game of 8e will be the christening of the game table. Should be fun, I'll be playing Orcs so it'll be good and random. I will be trying out the Chaos Lord w/ Book of Secrets and Spell Familiar combo I was toying with earlier. Not 100% final on gear yet, but he's way easier to fit into a small game than a L4 and against Orcs I'll want that combat punch to help grind down the big units of Boys in a hurry.

I'm thinking MoT, BoS, Spell Familiar, Talisman of Endurance and that leaves 30 points to split between weapon and armor. Or just leave him cheap. Stream of corruption is pretty much mandatory against Orcs of course :D

I'll see what kind of list I can come up with, should be lots of fun!

Gratan
16-07-2010, 06:35
In fact I thought I'd use it on my BSB :p

as important as the BSB is to an army in this edition I think putting the Book of Secrets on it is a big gamble... With the increased deadliness of the Miscast table you are taking a huge risk and losing your BSB as the BoS forces you to roll only 1d6+1 instead of the normal 2d6.... Rolling low on that chart is really bad....

I'm thinking of just using it on an Exalted Hero. Less points than taking the chance of blowing up a BSB or Lord...

Angelust
16-07-2010, 07:18
I think the book on BSB allows him to be a back-up caster. He shouldn't be throwing a bunch of dice unless your lvl 4 is dead. If that's the case, you probably need a big spell to swing things back in your favor, or else the game is at a point where risking your BSB may not change the outcome of the match much (i.e. it's more important to put a purple sun on that Slann before he annihilates the rest of your army). Otherwise, that single spell he gets can probably be cast on 2-3 dice, which means he won't be miscasting all that often.

tacoo
16-07-2010, 07:26
Quick question, is the daemon prince anygood? Thinking about buying the model when it comes out (incase your dont know, there up on advanced order) but want to know if its anygood.

GenerationTerrorist
16-07-2010, 08:37
Quick "Rule-ish" type of question that came up in a small game last night....

If my MoT Sorcerer has the Third Eye gift, and activates it, do his currently active Remains In Play spells from the Lore of Tzeentch automatically end at that point?

Lungboy
16-07-2010, 08:55
I don't see why they would, changing lores isn't mentioned in the list of things that remove a RIP spell from the table.

Zangor
16-07-2010, 09:30
Quick question, is the daemon prince anygood? Thinking about buying the model when it comes out (incase your dont know, there up on advanced order) but want to know if its anygood.

You really have to be in love with the model to justify fielding one. DPs are really not worth their high cost. There are better options at lower costs.

EndlessBug
16-07-2010, 10:46
You really have to be in love with the model to justify fielding one. DPs are really not worth their high cost. There are better options at lower costs.

indeed, and you're pretty limited to Tzeentch only, otherwise it's 4 T5 5+ ward save wounds which will vanish in a jiffy.

True line of sight means it's pretty much only buildings which can protect them now.

They've definately got more squishy what with not being able to hide behind things now. Though they do get thunderstomp.

They're a VERY expensive war machine hunter which will probably be killed by said warmachine before they get there.

GenerationTerrorist
16-07-2010, 13:26
Hi guys. My local GW is running a 1000pts "Quick Tournament" in the next few weeks.
What are people's thoughts on the list I intend to take? Comments and criticisms are welcome!

Chaos Sorcerer (Lvl2), MoT, Disc, Blood of Tzeentch

10 Chaos Warriors, MoT, Hand Weapon and Shield, Standard
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, Light Armour, Musician
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, Light Armour, Musician

5 Chaos Knights, MoT, Standard

Hellcannon

Works out at 999pts

Though I might drop the second unit of Horsemen for a pair of units of 5 Warhounds, and give my Sorcerer an Enchanted Shield.

Przemcio251
16-07-2010, 13:31
Well should work but you should take mark of khorne on the marauders and give some ward save to your mage. Also give knights mark of nurgle or khorne for more hitting power:)

Brother Drakist
16-07-2010, 13:58
Wanted to ask you Chaos minds a quick question. If you had 3x10 marauder horsemen how would you equip each unit?

Oberon
16-07-2010, 14:28
Flails, throwing weapons or your choice, musicians and standards. Light armour too. Standards are cheap in victory points but important in that one scenario that counts them, and when you engage without your line units, it really helps to secure a win. Musicians are a given in any unit that can have them, flails are always nice. Light armour is the only armour you can use with a 2h weapon so there. I'm really liking throwing spears, with their range you can touch pretty much anything after vanguard move and marching, and they are cheaper too. With throwing axes you will struggle to get both ranks to reach.

For mark, either nurgle or khorne. Probably khorne.

@Przemcio: to take all that a lot would have to be dropped, and there's not too much in it to begin with. WoC are hard enough without upgrades, in smaller games it is more important to have lots of bodies.

Jericho
16-07-2010, 14:29
Honestly I'd probably drop the Marauder cav in order to get a ward on the Sorc and more Warriors. You could definitely get some gear (Talisman of Protection, Enchanted Shield or the Charmed Shield would all be good) and sqeeze another 3-4 Warriors in for a bit of durability.

Eta
16-07-2010, 14:44
Knights still work well in this edition. I had a unit of six Khorne knights charge into the flank of 30 Orc boys. After the second round of combat there were only eight boys left and they broke from combat. The wolf chariot that had flanked my knights ran away, too, after it did not manage to penetrate the armour of my knights. They continued to butcher a unit of Night Goblins and ended their game fighting against a unit of trolls. Only the trolls managed to kill a knight but were slowly losing, too.

18 S5 attacks @I5 and 12 S4 attacks @I3 can still deal with most enemy units, albeit perhaps not in a frontal charge. With the new rules for restraining to charge with a frenzied model it has become much easier to control the maniacs (especially with a BSB nearby :)).

Greetings
Eta

Cartoon
16-07-2010, 15:02
Only problem is that the horses don't get an extra attack due to frenzy, so really it should have been 18 s5 attacks and 6 str 4 attacks. Tis a shame, but at least khorne knights can still bring a lot of pain.

Brother Drakist
16-07-2010, 15:04
Thanks Oberon,

I was thinking of doing at least one unit with flails. Thanks for the other suggestions. I really like the look of the shields and axes combined, however the short range on the axes worry me.

Jericho
16-07-2010, 15:38
Only problem is that the horses don't get an extra attack due to frenzy, so really it should have been 18 s5 attacks and 6 str 4 attacks. Tis a shame, but at least khorne knights can still bring a lot of pain.
Beat me to it :) Still, it's a good point that they still smash units hard in the flanks.

Yet another reason to join a character with Book of Secrets to Knights: Shadow/Death spells that are tons of fun being cast across the enemy battle line before you charge it :evilgrin:

Cartoon
16-07-2010, 15:48
One question about frenzy though, would the banner of rage effect the horses, since it gives the entire unit frenzy, or would it still only effect riders?

Havock
16-07-2010, 15:50
Just skimmed through the rulebook, but the rule that you can't use shields if you have a halberd kind of sucks, however, due to the wording it seemed legal that you do have that ability when you have an additional handweapon ;)

askaval30
16-07-2010, 16:00
halberd users still get the 3+ AS, just not the parry ability... right?

sayles78
16-07-2010, 16:04
halberd users still get the 3+ AS, just not the parry ability... right?

3+AS against missiles. In CC 4+AS if using halberd. Halberd requires 2 hands - so no shield.

Parry ONLY works with Hand Weapon and Shield, although you can still use the shield to gain the +1 armour save when combined with any other weapon which does not require 2 hands (morning star for example).

Havock
16-07-2010, 16:08
halberd users still get the 3+ AS, just not the parry ability... right?

It's about using them in combat.

Jericho
16-07-2010, 16:19
That question about frenzied horses has been raised before and there's no clear-cut answer yet. Riders with frenzy don't spread it to mounts (and vice versa) but there hasn't been anything to clarify whether the Banner of Rage or the Slaanesh frenzy spell would grant it to horses. My vote is "probably" but some people will not be happy about that (usually the guy getting his teeth kicked in by a horse).

Re: weapon and shield combos, please God give us a VFBRB FAQ as quickly as they are doing the army book ones :)

Eta
16-07-2010, 16:37
Only problem is that the horses don't get an extra attack due to frenzy, so really it should have been 18 s5 attacks and 6 str 4 attacks. Tis a shame, but at least khorne knights can still bring a lot of pain.

Why is that? I can see that a Khorne hero on a Daemonic Steed or Juggernaut does not pass frenzy to the mount (which is silly, a non frenzied Juggernaut of Khorne? :rolleyes:), but you buy the mark of Khorne for the unit. You cannot play the knight without the horse and vice versa. They are one model and thus the whole model has frenzy.

Greetings
Eta

Zangor
16-07-2010, 17:22
Im not saying that the mount gets frenzy if the rider does, but if that is the case would we roll separately for the mount and rider when determining wether they will try to charge the nearest unit or not? And whos LD would the mount use?

I would find it rather amusing if the rider is able to restrain himself, but the mount isnt and runs off charging the nearest enemy (such absurd scenarios belong to the greenskins in my oppinoion).

Cartoon
16-07-2010, 17:24
I don't have the book in front of me, but I remember reading that frenzy is not conferred to the mount unless specifically stated in the rule. I could be remembering that wrong though. Hopefully someone with the book will be able to clarify it. I mean, I can certainly see your point that the mark would apply to the whole unit, but I thought the rule was written in a way that disallows that. Like I said though I could be wrong.

Darktan
16-07-2010, 17:37
cavalry are for all intents and purposes, one model, if the riders themselves were frenzied, it would not transfer to the mount, but if the 'Model' recives frenzy, both mount and rider would get it, no?

however a dragon and his rider (and similar) are not one model, as one can exist without the other (cursed cannons shooting it from under you) if the rider got frenzy, the dragon would not, it is a separate model.

Eta
16-07-2010, 17:55
Rulebook (p. 82): If either the rider or the mount have Frenzy, then the whole model is subject to the Berserk Rage, but only the element with the Frenzy rule gains an Extra Attack.

This is the paragraph from the rulebook describing how Frenzy works with mounts. It distinguishes between rider and mount. Lets look at the WoC armybook:


Banner of Rage: The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. (p. 115, armybook)

Mark of Khorne: A model with the Mark of Khorne is subject to frenzy. (p. 110, armybook)

Chaos Knights entry: The unit may have a [Mark of Khorne]. (p. 125, armybook)

The WoC armybook never distinguishes between rider and mount. It talks about units and models. Especially the term model implies that the mounts have the Frenzy rule and thus the Berserk Rage and Extra Attack special rules. The Chaos Knight model is composed by the Chaos Steed and the rider, you cannot separate them. So the whole model has Frenzy.

Characters are a different matter as they can be fielded without a mount and thus the model is only the character itself without mount. When a character has the Mark of Khorne and buys a mount, the mount does not get frenzy.

This is at least my point of view and I hope it makes sense :p.

Greetings
Eta

NixonAsADaemonPrince
16-07-2010, 18:21
@Eta: That is exactly what I was thinking, I think is the rule is there so you do not get frenzied mounts which are bought separately to model with frenzy. But with chaos knights, the rider and the horse is counted as one model, just with different characteristics for attacking, and the mark of khorne says that the model is subject to frenzy, so it would definitely affect the whole model, and thus each part of the model would be subject to the Extra Attack rule.

Nixon

Cartoon
16-07-2010, 18:35
That makes sense to me. I certainly hope khorne horses get the extra attack. Like you said, it would make sense that characters don't transfer their frenzy since they are two separate models but I can see the case for knights being different. It's too bad the FAQ didn't clarify the issue, but oh well. I think you've made a strong enough argument that the whole knight model would get frenzy, in my opinion anyway. I guess that would mean that the banner of rage would also grant the extra attack to the horses as well, since it gives it the whole unit, correct?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
16-07-2010, 18:45
I guess that would mean that the banner of rage would also grant the extra attack to the horses as well, since it gives it the whole unit, correct?

Yes, that's what I'm thinking.

Nixon

theSkullduggery1
16-07-2010, 19:02
I agree with what sounds to be the fianl verdict, that a chaos knight is all one model and therefore both mount and knight get an extra attack. That is how I will be playing it until GW writes something different telling me to stop.

I understand that mounts of characters don't get extra attacks, but I still think that a Juggernaut of Khorne should since in the models name it clearly is of Khorne...IMO there should have been a special rule in the FAQ saying that Juggys get an extra attack from frenzy.

Orangecoke
17-07-2010, 00:49
Hey guys, I have my first ever game Saturday night, and will be playing my 1500 points of khorne theme vs a lizard men army with slaan.

I'm a little worried about magic :)

Right now my main predicament is with one of my hero choices. I have an exalted who is the bsb. I figured he was important for rerolls on the frenzy checks. Meanwhile I tried boosting magic resistance on my guys with items etc. It didn't add up to much.

I have to wonder if a sorcerer with dispel scroll might be overall better for getting the army safely to the fight (it's very melťe heavy).

Given the choice between bsb and a sorc for a khornate army, what would you choose?

Ps I tried to fit both but couldn't. I have an exalted on jugger (painted) that I want to keep in the list.

Oberon
17-07-2010, 00:57
BSB. You will need 2 characters if you take a bsb, and IMO you will need him. In 8ed you get a lot of DD even without a sorc, you'll just have to roll lots of dice at those spells because slann's level advantage. With a sorc, slann would still be ahead and you would be without a bsb. I say get into CC ASAP and just be better than he is when it matters. You can cancel his remains in play spells on your turn even without a sorc so...

Leth Shyish'phak
17-07-2010, 01:05
I suggest choosing some of your dice to be dispel dice, carving the sixes on them into marks of Khorne and then roaring loudly through his entire magic phase.

It can't possibly fail. :shifty:

Apart from that, hope that he doesn't take Metal on the Slann and that he miscasts a lot. Trying to take on a Slann with no wizard, or even just a hero-wizard, is going to go badly - the Slann will dominate the magic phase regardless. To be honest, I wouldn't bother putting anything into magic defense (except maybe some magic resistance items on important units) unless you're going to put a decent amount of points into it.

You'll just have to smash lots of skulls to make up for it.

Orangecoke
17-07-2010, 01:07
Cool, I appreciate the advice :)

Urdokadin
17-07-2010, 05:30
Interesting catch; Will of Chaos allows for rerolls on terror tests because terror is classified as a type of panic; the wording on the rule for terror is :

"If a Terror causing creature declares a charge, the target unit must immediately take a panic test to quell their terror."

pluch87
17-07-2010, 05:42
Interesting catch; Will of Chaos allows for rerolls on terror tests because terror is classified as a type of panic; the wording on the rule for terror is :

"If a Terror causing creature declares a charge, the target unit must immediately take a panic test to quell their terror."

hmmm that is interesting. Anything about this in the FAQ's?

Urdokadin
17-07-2010, 05:48
nope, nothing at all. Now i'm looking over the book to see what else is considered panic now.

Hrmm the plot thickens, fear would NOT trigger the will of chaos special rule because it's not explicitly listed as being a type of panic.
Matt Ward is either a genius or an idiot....still trying to figure that one out.

Cartoon
17-07-2010, 17:23
The general consensus is that the hellcannon is pretty much an auto include this edition (or at least a very decent choice). I'm wondering if two would be a better idea though. That really starts to eat into my troop allotment, but given how effective they can be against infantry hordes I can't help but think it's points well spent. I know I'm going to be facing big blocks of HE spearmen that have been powered up to STR 8 by Teclis along with a lot of bolt throwers and eagles so it would be nice to have something to knock their numbers down a bit.

The other thing I can't decide on is how to run my marauders of khorne. Would I be better off with 2 units of like 30 guys or one big unit of 40 or 50? I'm also going to run a block of 18 warriors of khorne and probably 15 chosen of Tzeentch to form the center of the battle line, but I don't know what would make the better compliment. 2 units might provide a little more flexibility when it comes to maneuvering, but a big unit will be able to soak up all the shooting that's going to come their way.

Would it be better to force my opponent to divide his fire between multiple units or to weather it with one big one? Also, if I run 2 hellcannons I'll probably have to drop my knights from my list entirely which is kind of sad since I spent so much time on them.

I really appreciate any advice! This is for 2500pts by the way.

Angelust
17-07-2010, 17:42
I talked to a local at the game store and his opinion was that horde units really begin to break after the 4-point a piece mark. After that, the unit becomes a bit too expensive and "elite".

What do you guys think? I have 60 marauders, and I'm unsure of whether to take one big block of 50 in the MoK/GW pattern, or 3 squads of 20, or 2 squads of 30, or some mix. Are horde sized squads too vulnerable to unit-killing spells and warmachines? I could imagine a couple trebuchets and peasant bowmen killing the unit in 2 turns. Maybe they'll just soak up the fire so that the warriors can get into face-rolling position?

Kalec
17-07-2010, 17:52
A horde-sized unit of khornate marauders with GWs/flails works out to be about 6 points per model, with FC. That is a bargain for the damage they inflict compared to similarly-priced infantry units. They are a bit elite for a horde compared to, say, goblins and men at arms and slaves, but those are the cheapest troops there are. 6 points is fine for a horde unit if it is a unit that actually benefits from having an extra rank of attacks (i.e. not swordsmen).

Besides, WoC doesn't get any cheaper except for less equipped marauders, which aren't much more durable anyway. We used to use warhounds as extra wounds, after all.

Jericho
17-07-2010, 18:18
Would it be better to force my opponent to divide his fire between multiple units or to weather it with one big one? Also, if I run 2 hellcannons I'll probably have to drop my knights from my list entirely which is kind of sad since I spent so much time on them.
Dropping my Knights is a shame too, since I finally got around to 100% finishing them very recently and I really like how they turned out (especially the banner). I'll probably keep them just because it's so damn hard to have a mounted character earn a Look out, sir! save :) And having a Chaos Lord w/ BoS and some combat gear running up a flank with 5-6 Knights will make an interesting flanker. March into flanking position, cast something like Penumbral Pendulum and giggle :D

Anyway for the splitting of your Marauders, why not 40 and 20? You have a big horde and a support unit that way to protect its flank and/or charge the enemy's. Warriors can do the same, but they cost more and are a bit of a waste to have them hanging around in support role.

Cartoon
17-07-2010, 20:03
That's probably a really good idea. A supporting unit of marauders would probably compliment warriors and chosen pretty well. Anchor something down with a unit that has decent armor save and flank with the GW marauders. I'll definitely have to try that out. Now if I could only find a way to squeeze in some knights. They might have to wait for 3000pt games though.

Speaking of which, for those of you who have been able to get some 8th ed matches in, what are the point values your playing at? Is 2500 the new standard, or is 3000, or has it even changed at all? I would think the points would have to go up to be able to fit all the infantry in, but I haven't had a chance to see how it's working out.

Your pale companion
17-07-2010, 21:19
I talked to a local at the game store and his opinion was that horde units really begin to break after the 4-point a piece mark.
I am gonna be using 2 40man strong units of chaos warriors.One with shields and MoT and the rapturus standard and one with halberds and the banner of rage.
That leaves me room for some marauders horsemen, a hellcanon, the BSB and my daemon prince on 2500.Perhaps I can squeeze a sorcerer in there too.

Cartoon
17-07-2010, 21:34
That there are some big ole blocks of warriors. I would probably invest in some magic resistance on them though, some of those new spells will ruin your day if they hit one of those units. Granted there won't be much they can't wear down in cc, but a few well placed spells could really hurt. I'm interested to hear how they work out though.a

Angelust
17-07-2010, 21:36
I am gonna be using 2 40man strong units of chaos warriors.One with shields and MoT and the rapturus standard and one with halberds and the banner of rage.
That leaves me room for some marauders horsemen, a hellcanon, the BSB and my daemon prince on 2500.Perhaps I can squeeze a sorcerer in there too.

Aren't you concerned with spells that will kill your unit on a strength/toughness test?

Or the popular combination of having 1 spell lower your relevant stat, and then a characteristic test-or-die spell like Dwellers below?

Or even just getting leadership bombed, BSB assassinated, and flank charged?

I dunno, seems like a LOT of points to wrap up in 2 units.

I guess it'd be pretty killy, but LD 8 even with a BSB is going to fail you at the wrong times...

Djekar
17-07-2010, 21:54
Actually my problem with big blocks of warriors isn't shooting (they are reasonably resilient already) or spells (you can load up on wizard characters and magic resistance pretty easily) but the fact that the supporting attack (and therefore Horde) rules don't benefit them very much with the supportive attacks being limited to a maximum of 1. I mean, sure you get another attack, but you're paying a premium for that extra attack. I really feel like 2 units of 20 (that's 30 attacks rather than 40) is both easier to maneuver and harder to neutralize while still being amazingly deadly.

That being said, 4 blocks of 20 Warriors sounds like a rock solid army core, especially with the ability to reform in later rounds to bring all that killing power to bear if you are up against wider units.

Havock
18-07-2010, 00:32
Okay had a 1250 pt tournament today, I'll give a brief rundown of the list and the battles:

(wall of text below!)

First battle:
Spells my mage rolled: Flickering Fire, Gateway.
Dwarves, we played a breakthrough mission with me as the attacker, as such I got extra points for getting a unit on his deployment zone at the end of the game.
He had an organ gun, a cannon, a few characters and 3 units of 10 thunderers, as well as hammerers and a unit of longbeard rangers. I deployed towards my right though still enough in the centre to make him guess, he deployed in the centre, with some LoS blocking pillars dissecting his deployment zone.
His rangers went on my left flank, which I ignored and I completely refused my left flank; the horsemen and knights I deployed to the centre rode off toward his cannon and thunderers opposing me on that flank. it was a foregone conclusion, the hellcannon shot the thunderers to hell, his cannon took a shot at my wizaqrd, which I saved -phew- forgot true LoS for a moment there, thank Tzeentch I modelled the disc on the shortest possibly flight to avoid breaking it.

My horsemen tore the crap out of the cannon and the knights rode over what was left of the thunderers, I could fairly safely sit there and there was little he could do to me; my wizard and hellcannon picked his army apart. Organ gun mysteriously vanished in a portal \o/
900 pts in my advantage.

Second Battle
Spells my mage rolled: Flickering Fire, Call to Glory (yeah I got #2, but with the new BSB rules it's totally worthless, at least with #5, the idea was I could pull some bait tricks)
Orcs & Goblins.
He had a horde of Orks, a Horde of Goblins with nets, a level 4 goblin shaman, an Orc BSB, Orc General, a Goblin Lord and a Goblin hero (both naked with great weapon), 1x5 and 1x12 spiders.
Being unfamiliar with 8th ed, I was unsure of the exact working of a horde, the scenario had him deploy first and me move up from my table edge, he deployed in the centre, seeing as he had that annoying 'make initiative test or suffer D6 S10 wounds, I deployed my hellcannon on the table corner.
My wizard died early because of the feedback Scroll and the horsemento a fanatic. However, my revenge was sweet indeed because his goblin unit (with BSB and level 4) moved too far forward, allowing my warrior unit to attack it to the front and the knight unit to crash in the flanks. If it weren't for the nets my champion would've whipped the goblin lord around, but alas. I got him down to two when my saves finally failed.
Two knights made sure his magic was a non-issue anymore in the next turn.
He held, because of steadfast, though it was painfully obvious next turn that would not be.
His spider riders flanked, failed horribly and the whole thing died.

Meanwhile, the Hellcannon reduced the Orc unit to such numbers that he reformed them in order to retain some functionality. Despite the fact that the early loss of my mage and fast cav raisded some concern, the hellcannon and warriors + knights pulled through.

Third Battle:
Spells my mage rolled: Flickering Fire, Pandaemonium
Dark Elves

Right, I was the defender for once, I had a small square in the centre of the table, and his deployment zone was 6" from every table edge.

He had:
A level 4 with extra spell and pendant, Noble with great weapon and armor of darkness. One unit spearmen,+/-17 strong, two chariots, a boltthrower, hydra, 5 dark riders and 10 crossbowmen.
I got turn one, my hellcannon rampaged toward the hydra, essentially forming up besides my battle line of warriors and knights; those three units faced a chariot, hydra, bolttrhower and 10 crossbowmen.

I can be very short about this battle, it wasn't so much 'defending' I did but more a "My lord, we are surrounded!" - Good, then we can attack in every direction. The warriors finally faced off against the warriors and totally wrecked that unit. Still, I rolled crappy on pursuit and he rolled well; he rallied and did some nasty casting to my unit; his chariot charged, killed stuff but bounced off again. And next turn I charged him again, he held this time and there was not much left when he miscast due to pandaemonium and got a double one from me as a treat (hey, we had roughly equal numbers and I was the one with the wardsaves. He didn't got sucked away, I won combat by one and he fled just far enough to outrun me.

The list + notes:



Sorcerer:
level 2, Mark of Tzeentch, Disc, puppet, talisman of protection
-stream of corruption
230 pts

Works decently, being classified as a cavalry mount makes it easy for him to get the look out sir roll, though it failed me this day -second battle *cough*-; if he is alone he really needs that extra spell; probably ditching the puppet at low point games, the odds are fairly low and there are better things; like good wardsaves. Surprised at the ease at which you can cast gateway now. Might be a good idea to take 2 level 2 tzeentch wizards and equip one with the third eye...

Stream of Corruption is awesome. Not only can it decimate light infantry, it can also assist in case the guy is charged by light cavalry or something.

Cruise missile horsemen
Flails, Khorne, Light armor, musician
116 pts

These guys have been hit hard, my suspicion was correct: Chaos knights still have their saves, threat range and damage output going for them. These guys are too fragile; still useful in higher point games in providing 'cover with a bite' for discriders though, they can wreck warmachines good, not to mention do the occasional character assassination thing. I can't help but feel that I would have been better off ditching them and a knight in favour of 20-something tzeentch marauders with light armor and shields.


Warriors (18)
Mark of Tzeentch, full command, shields armor piercing banner
383 pts

Pretty damn great anvil, I deployed them 3x6; could perhaps use some more dudes -and a BSB around ;)- but they just. Won't. Die. Easily. People like their S3 spearmen hordes, these guys don't. Or maybe they do ;) The Armor Piercing banner was a trial run and it worked great, takes all armor from light infantry and even 2+ save knights don't like them. 5+ parry is, quoted and loosely translated from dutch: "Annoying as hell."

Knights (6)
Tzeentch, warbanner, musician
315 pts

Meh, I'll give them either the Banner of rage for insane damage outputor the strider standard for surprise chaos knight parteh.
Thinking of running a BSB with ASF sword and collar of khorne in it. Their purpose will be to kill stuff. Messily. In huge quantities. Steadfast? BREAKFAST!
BSB in that setup has 5 rerollable S5 attacks on a higher initiative than you, well, most of the time, with a higher weapon skill than you... Most of the time.

Hellcannon
205 pts.

Hellcannon ****** YEAH!
Want to transform a horde of weaksauce opponents you can't be arsed to engage in combat yet into a charnel pit? He da man daemon-thing. He shoots, scores and kills stuff good.
Killcount is probably around 60 models spread over the day, mostly game 1 and 2, by virtue of totally going bat-s**t insane during the last game: "Look Hydra NOMNOMNOM. Look boltthrower *drive-through*. Look table edge *swoosh*.
Totally the arch-enemy of the trousers (skirts if you have pointy ears) of ye olde infantryman. I was fairly spot on with guessing during 7th, but this feels almost too easy.

Totall:
1249 pts

Your pale companion
18-07-2010, 09:23
Aren't you concerned with spells that will kill your unit on a strength/toughness test?

Or the popular combination of having 1 spell lower your relevant stat, and then a characteristic test-or-die spell like Dwellers below?

Or even just getting leadership bombed, BSB assassinated, and flank charged?

I dunno, seems like a LOT of points to wrap up in 2 units.

I guess it'd be pretty killy, but LD 8 even with a BSB is going to fail you at the wrong times...
Yeah I might as well use 3 or 4 units of 20.
But I really want to play those big units at least once, it's gonna be fun for a while (before all the nasty things you mentioned start to happen).

Eta
18-07-2010, 10:23
Treason of Tzeentch is my new favourite spell. Killed 20 Skaven slaves of a unit of 60 in a game yesterday on turn two which made the whole Skaven army save a Warplightning Cannon flee :D. Incredibly useful against such weakly armoured speed bump units.

Greetings
Eta

Morthak
18-07-2010, 10:34
@Havock- A good read, thanks. But indeed, horsemen don't seem to cut it anymore.

Treason is even better on 'itty units like halberdiers, Black Orcs or even White Lions, who can re-roll to hit against themselves now. Yes, they do, and I love it.

Morthak

Poseidal
18-07-2010, 10:52
I'm not sure White lions will get re-rolls against themselves as they don't have higher initiative than themselves unless I'm missing another rule?