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Whitesox
11-07-2010, 11:13
Hello all, in 7th ed I never used black orcs in my list (chariots, lobbas, chukkas and boar boyz all made my list before them, but with going back to percentages I'm finding that I have enough space in my specials to dig them out again (boarboyz are just not worth it and it is very cheap to max out on your artillary), so with my mind set I am now going to start using them.

I am thinking of running them in a 6 wide 4 deep block with full command and shields, but out of the magic items I'm liking the idea of the razor banner.... this banner is just made for the black orcs in my opinion, It allows you to have 17 (with shield) or 23 (with add weapons) strength 5 -3 armour save attacks on the charge or to go for the extreme can opener unit of 17 strength 6 -4 armour save attacks. With this editions onus set on large units I'm very tempted to try this out.

Opinions or are BO still just a waste of points?

RanaldLoec
11-07-2010, 11:33
No with the new specail weapons rules a lot of elite infantry are stuck using the one weapon.

Black orks have the advatage of adaptability. Against empire swordsmen you take the extar hand weapon, against chaos warriors you use the great weapon.

No other unit other than dwarf slayers have the abilitie to swap weapons to suit who they fight.

With the stepping up rule it will take a lot to reduce your black orks attacks back.

I can't remember if BO's have 1 or 2 attacks but if you do run 6 by 4 then any of my empire or wood elves would think twice about 13 ws4 st6 attacks or 19 ws4 st4 attacks.

I personnely think black orks get a nice boost in 8th ed.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-07-2010, 11:58
Nope they look great to me. I have to say the new edition has done a great deal to increase the effectiveness of a lot of units that were quite poor before which means most of the greenskin book got better including balck orcs.

The armour piercing banner would probably be my choice for black orcs too.

FluidSpace
11-07-2010, 12:10
Personally, I think that I still like taking the Banner of Butchery with my black orcs. Ya its only a one time use item but having those extra attacks can really make a difference. If you going six wide that will give you 6 extra attacks. That would give a totally of 26 attacks at strength 5 if you use two choppas in the first round of combat.

lord opium
11-07-2010, 12:18
They are still initive 2

Whitesox
11-07-2010, 12:35
They are still initive 2

yes but the majority of orcs & gobbos are int 2... in another list it would be bad but in a list where it is the norm then it is manageable. And initive 2 makes no difference with always strike last weapons.

The main issues with BO have always been

a) Points per model (no change)
b) Striking last with great weapons (no change but stepping up allows for more attacks back)
c) Ease of killing the front rank and routing the unit (Stepping up & steadfast changes that)

In my opinion Black Orcs now have a place within this edition, yes they are going to be point heavy but with the only other viable special choice being lobbas and chukkas there is still going to be points left for them

Urgat
11-07-2010, 12:57
Her... apart from hoppers and regular boars, pretty much all the specials are valid choices. I can't wait to combo charge enemy units with 3 wolf charriots - 3 charriots that will happen to be only a small chunk of my special choices selection :p

Whitesox
11-07-2010, 13:07
Out of the specials i only see the following as essential above 1000pts

2x Chariots 120-160pts
2x Rock Lobbas + Bullys 150pts
2x Spear Chukkas + Bullys 80pts

and that only totals 350-390pts so I would only consider them in games over 2000pts

Urgat
11-07-2010, 13:14
essential is different from valid though. My special will be built around two chukkas, one lobber and three charriots (320pts). I don't think I'll have enough shooting turns to justify any more warmachines.

Whitesox
11-07-2010, 14:03
I find having 1 lobba doesnt allow me to dictate the battle, having 2 and atleast 2 chukkas atleast forces my opponent to move, otherwise a lot of armies are happy just to sit in their deployment zone all game and shoot me from afar

rtunian
11-07-2010, 15:22
i'm not sure where you get your numbers from (unless you think that blorcs have a2). 6 wide blorcs will have 12 attacks, or 13 if there's a champ, with great weapons or hw&s. if they are using 2x choppa, the number becomes 18, or 19 with a champ. supporting attacks only ever strike once, regardless of frenzy, additional hand weapon, or mulitple attacks on profile.

all that said, i agree that the blorcs are looking better in 8th. if you are going to run a big unit of them, and you don't have a unit of biguns in your army, i would consider giving the blorcs the mork's spirit totem. this way, you can give your bsb some protective item, so that he doesn't get chopped down so easily.

Whitesox
11-07-2010, 15:29
i'm not sure where you get your numbers from (unless you think that blorcs have a2). 6 wide blorcs will have 12 attacks, or 13 if there's a champ, with great weapons or hw&s. if they are using 2x choppa, the number becomes 18, or 19 with a champ. supporting attacks only ever strike once, regardless of frenzy, additional hand weapon, or mulitple attacks on profile.

all that said, i agree that the blorcs are looking better in 8th. if you are going to run a big unit of them, and you don't have a unit of biguns in your army, i would consider giving the blorcs the mork's spirit totem. this way, you can give your bsb some protective item, so that he doesn't get chopped down so easily.

you are quite right... i had the calc from my savage orc boyz still in my head

it should only be 13 attacks or 19 depending on load out

Djekar
11-07-2010, 17:14
For my first few games I'm going with a unit of 30 carrying the spirit totem and a combat-y BSB, but I have a sense of dread that after a few games I'm going to be rolling with the razor banner instead and sticking the totem on a night gobbo BSB in a relatively safe bunker.

That being said, I agree that Black Orcs got a lot better with the advent of stepping up and supportive attacks coupled with the new weapon rules. Use 'em!

BattleofLund
11-07-2010, 17:43
Question: an Orc (regular, big, black, savage, or character) who is armed with another weapon beside his Choppa, and also has a shield... will he be able to choose the Choppa+shield combo for close combat?

The Choppa is not, strictly speaking, a 'basic hand weapon' since it has an additional rule and models with two or more 'special weapons' can choose which one to use?

Urgat
11-07-2010, 18:19
It is a basic hand weapon, it's clearly stated in the choppa rule.

rtunian
11-07-2010, 18:56
after a few games I'm going to be rolling with the razor banner instead and sticking the totem on a night gobbo BSB in a relatively safe bunker.

sorry to say, but mork's totem is orcs only

Whitesox
11-07-2010, 18:57
Question: an Orc (regular, big, black, savage, or character) who is armed with another weapon beside his Choppa, and also has a shield... will he be able to choose the Choppa+shield combo for close combat?

The Choppa is not, strictly speaking, a 'basic hand weapon' since it has an additional rule and models with two or more 'special weapons' can choose which one to use?

as Urgat said... that makes armed to da teef worth the extra points, black orcs will be the 8th edition jack of all trades for orcs

Rafi
11-07-2010, 19:09
I've been solidly in the 'Black Orcs are overpriced' camp for quite some time. With 8th and all I'm rethinking a few things.
Let's say that they tweaked Orc Boyz to:

A unit of Orcs may be upgraded to Black Orcs for +4pts a model (see Big 'Uns profile, but with Ld8, and a Black Orc Boss is WS5). They count as a Special Choice. They must be equipped with Heavy Armour for +2pts a model. They must be equipped with an additional choppa and a great weapon for +2pts a model. Black Orcs are immune to Animosity and always Waaagh when it is called. Black Orcs may take a Magic Standard worth up to 50pts.

To me that makes Black Orcs look quite reasonable, tho I can't say why.

theorox
11-07-2010, 19:21
Her... apart from hoppers and regular boars, pretty much all the specials are valid choices.

They are both sstill viable, especially so the Boarboyz. :D A bit overpriced, yes. But they perform well.

Hoppers are situational now. Still, they are I3, right...? Not that bad, i think.

Theo

Urgat
11-07-2010, 20:46
I3 is bad for them, really. All elven kinds, almost all chaos, all skavens... that's a lot of things that will strike before the 1) not numerous because 2) expensive 3)T3 4) no save poor hoppers (oh wait, now they have a 6+ save. They're... safe! Hem, sorry :p)...
During my 7th ed games, every time my hoppers got charged, they got wiped out clean. Now, that's basically going to happen to them all the time excepted against undead and dwarfs, and, maybe, against humans if you win the initiative dice-off... That's pretty sad for a shock unit... herders can swallow it up because they can come in numbers, but hoppers don't get that possibility.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-07-2010, 21:28
I found that hoppers against high elves in 7th were essentially a 50/50 unit. Either the elves chopped them to tiny pieces or if the elves messed up the squigs would eat the unit. I think that hoppers will now be a 50/50 unit against most armies in 8th with the exception of those with poor initiative or great weapons, where they will gain an advantage, and high elves, who will always kill them now thanks to their re-rolls.

Green_Mike
11-07-2010, 22:43
I like the black orcs. I didnt use them to much i 7th but i really do want to for this one, with initiative order the charge doesnt matter anyway. Some people say they're overpriced but i dont agree. They will hold up against most infantry troops in the game. Just team them up with a little flanking help and its a deadly unit!

lord opium
12-07-2010, 10:24
A unit of 24 black orcs with shields, full command, and a 25pt banner is 399pts thats a lot, but they aren't a bad unit just a little expensive.

Panzeesmasha
12-07-2010, 13:21
I think Black Orcs are more viable now but, as highlighted, they are still VERY expensive and can still be removed in numbers at range (magic or shooting) without too much difficulty. Personally, I don't think i'd take them unless it's AT THE VERY LEAST a 2500pt game, preferably 3000pts. Priority now for O&G lists for me is big core units of boyz and gobbos, lobbas, spear chukkas, doom divers, chariots/pumpwagons with black orcs still behind them in the pecking order.

Despite this, in games of 3000pts, a unit of black orcs will probably be a regular inclusion in my lists. A build I was thinking of was a BSB with either the armour piercing banner or the re-roll misses banner and the unit standard being morks spirit totem. (Has to be that way round due to costs of banners). Problem is, a unit of 29 with full command and a 50pt banner is 494 pts. That's still a lot in 3000pt games.

BattleofLund
12-07-2010, 22:54
It is a basic hand weapon, it's clearly stated in the choppa rule.

Yep, knew that.

But that meant, at the time of writing, that it gave the user the option of using it with a shield to get an extra armour save bonus, or to use another carried weapon: extra choppa, spear, great weapon. As per the contemporary rulebook.

This is no longer valid, of course. In WFB 8th you have to choose your special, trained-with weapon instead of your default hand weapon. However, under Weapon Profiles (BRB p89) it says:

Each 'special' weapon confers a number of abilities onto the warrior wielding it. This will sometimes be a bonus to their characteristic profile (normally Strength) or perhaps grant the wielder one or more special rules, as detailed in the weapon's rules.

Is it a big stretch to see the Choppa's MorningStar-like ('like', not 'identical') profile as putting it in the 'Special Weapons' section?
Maybe I'm being too pro-Green here, but I just don't see Orcs 'practicing' to a degree where they will prefer one particular implement of combat over another. :)

rtunian
12-07-2010, 22:58
Yep, knew that.

But that meant, at the time of writing, that it gave the user the option of using it with a shield to get an extra armour save bonus, or to use another carried weapon: extra choppa, spear, great weapon. As per the contemporary rulebook.

This is no longer valid, of course. In WFB 8th you have to choose your special, trained-with weapon instead of your default hand weapon. However, under Weapon Profiles (BRB p89) it says:

Each 'special' weapon confers a number of abilities onto the warrior wielding it. This will sometimes be a bonus to their characteristic profile (normally Strength) or perhaps grant the wielder one or more special rules, as detailed in the weapon's rules.

Is it a big stretch to see the Choppa's MorningStar-like ('like', not 'identical') profile as putting it in the 'Special Weapons' section?
Maybe I'm being too pro-Green here, but I just don't see Orcs 'practicing' to a degree where they will prefer one particular implement of combat over another. :)

the choppa doesn't just count as a hand weapon, by rule the choppa is the orc hand weapon. orcs do not come with a choppa and a hand weapon, in other words. goblins (and presumably everything else in the game) come with a hand weapon, orcs come with a choppa.