PDA

View Full Version : Skink Krox units in melee...



TheBearProphet
11-07-2010, 14:36
Ok, I couldn't for the life of me figure this out, or find the answer. Skink & krox units:

Lost great reach, as it's already covered by supporting attacks. So, they are not base to base, meaning they get no stomp, and they can't be targeted in melee. They still get their 3 attacks each from the second rank though.

So, after your opponent (inevitably) mows down a good deal of your skinks, let's say that you are left with 6 skinks in front, and three krox behind them, and that's it. If your opponent inflicts another 3 wounds, do they go on the skinks, or the kroxigors?

I only ask because they have to target the skinks (in base to base combat) but the rulebook says you take casualties off of the rear most rank.

If the casualties go on the skinks, then I think I found a new hammer unit that fills core choices, (some high strength hits surrounded by cannon fodder.) If not, then aren't those kroxigor being cheated out of their superior WS, T, and save for defensive purposes?

little help to a confused dude?

theunwantedbeing
11-07-2010, 14:41
So long as the front rank is skinks, enemies fighting to the front of skink/krox units are incapable of attacking the kroxigor!

You need to be in base contact with a kroxigor to attack them, which usually you wont be.

jaxom
12-07-2010, 03:30
The bad news is that it essentially means that the unit is not fear-causing any more since you take the test based on being in base contact with a model. That was the important thing about Great Reach and the whole reason I didn't expect the unit to lose that rule. <sigh>

Necromancy Black
12-07-2010, 04:46
Or you could read the FAQ that clearly says adding kroxigors makes the entire unit cause fear. Either way.

jaxom
12-07-2010, 06:22
Ok, I'll be honest... Unless I am missing something, the definition of Fear in the BRB says Fear-causing models. The Errata removes Great Reach which made units in the front rank count as adjacent to the Krox. I can't look at a Q&A on page three and feel really comfortable deciding that it means a Skink model causes Fear. Immune to fear, sure. Has models that cause fear, sure. But all models cause fear? Maybe I am just stuck in a 7th Ed. mindset...

Maybe it's what they intended, but it sure is not the way I would read that.

Necromancy Black
12-07-2010, 06:43
It says the unit causes fear, so that means every model. Outnumbering is gone so it doesn't matter that they all cause fear.

How is the wording any different to the Totem of Prophecy, or are you going to argue that that magic item won't grant fear to all models in the unit either?

jaxom
12-07-2010, 08:01
Consider it my natural skepticism that a question in a FAQ might not actually reflect anything in the rules?

Are you arguing that if a character causes fear and he joins a unit now his whole unit causes fear? If not, is there any basis for a Krox actually allowing the Skinks to cause fear or is that just someone providing a bad answer?

Necromancy Black
12-07-2010, 10:29
How about it's someone providing an answer to replace the change in the rules with the loss of a certain rule?

I'm arguing that the answer to the FAQ is provided and makes sense.

snowywlf
12-07-2010, 16:33
I agree with Necromancy Black. This is a pretty open and shut issue.

Q. Does a unit of Skinks that includes Kroxigors cause Fear? Are
they immune to Fear? (p53)
A. Yes to both questions.

Ta da! All done. I also agree that the answer was intended to retain the functionality of the Skrox unit. And no, based purely on the BRB, there is nothing to justify the answer.

solkan
12-07-2010, 19:13
The enemy is incapable of singling out the Kroxigors, but does that prevent the Kroxigors from taking wounds or being removed as casualties?

On the one hand, there's the mechanic used for character models where characters can't be wounded in close combat by attacks not directed specifically at them.

But on the other hand, the Kroxigors aren't characters and there doesn't seem to be anything specifying that if an enemy in base contact with a Skink in a mixed Skink/Croxigor unit can only cause Skink casualties.

snowywlf
12-07-2010, 19:33
But on the other hand, the Kroxigors aren't characters and there doesn't seem to be anything specifying that if an enemy in base contact with a Skink in a mixed Skink/Croxigor unit can only cause Skink casualties.

There isnt anything allowing wounds to 'roll over' from Skinks to Krox either.

8th Edition is a little clearer than 7th Edition on this point (although it seems far to difficult for the writers to *actually* settle the matter). Page 48 - Dividing Attacks. If you are faced with two different kinds of enemy (which the Krox and Skink are), then you choose where to direct the attacks. That then determines your To Hit, To Wound, etc. Now, if you keep going to the Remove Casualties section (page 51) you will see there is nothing about wounds rolling over to Rank and File(part of the ambiguity of 7th if I recall correctly). In other words, the section telling you to Divide Attacks tells you what you can ultimately kill (and hit and wound, etc.).

Think of the rules as a flow chart (which is how they are written):

Determine Who Can Strike > Determine How Many Attack > Divide the Attacks Between A and B >

For Attacks on A > Striking Order > Roll to Hit > Roll to Wound > Saving Throws > Remove Casualties

For Attacks on B > Striking Order > Roll to Hit > Roll to Wound > Saving Throws > Remove Casualties

The rules just dont support saying that Attacks on A suddenly leap to Attacks on B.

solkan
12-07-2010, 19:48
But the Dividing Attacks section specifies that it applies is in base contact with two or more different types of enemies.

The rulebook says that when an attack causes a casualty, then a model gets removed from the unit. If you have five Skinks and a Croxigor in a unit, the rules in the close combat section simply specifies that a casualty has to be removed from the back of the unit. Since both the Skinks and the Croxigors are part of the same unit, then the Croxigor should be just as valid to take the wound as one of the Skinks if they're both at the back of the unit.

jaxom
12-07-2010, 21:26
solkan, by that logic refusing a challenge and moving to the back of the unit is an incredibly dangerous proposition. I'd suggest that you go with an implied "of the type which was killed" in that rule which means that since Kroxigor are not in base contact until a lot of skinks have been killed you can't target and therefore can't wound them.