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Minsc
11-07-2010, 17:34
I have a rulequestion that came up yesterday when I played Empire vs Dark Elves.

I had a General of the Empire in a unit of Greatswords. The Greatswords then had the Standard of Discipline - my idéa was that the General would get Ld10 for as long as he was in the unit (ergo all my units would have Ld10 within 12" of him) and that the Greatswords themselves would either have Ld9 (8+1) or Ld10 (using the largest Ld in the unit, wich was the Generals Ld9+1).

However, when I was forced to take a Ldtest on my first unit within 12" of the General and proclamied that I had Ld10 due to the General having Ld10 due to Standard of Discipline, and that he could give it to other units except the one he was in, I was called powergamer/rawabuser/cheater/etc by the crowd, and my argument that a General could still give his "Inspiring Presence" to other units than the one he was in was turned down since apparently since he was a part of the unit that can't use the Generals Ld, he can't use his own Ld and as such, he can't give Inspiring Presence to other units either.

So, is this a viable tactic or did I play wrong?

Can the General give his Ld+1 to his own unit for beeing the highest Ld in the unit and at the same time give I.P to friendlies within 12" or not?
(Or does it need a FAQ like almost everything else in this game right now?)

Tae
11-07-2010, 17:38
I must admit I saw this possible combination when the book was released, but wasn't sure how to play it as I can see it from both sides.

Personally I'm going to wait for a BRB FAQ to address it, if it ever does, before taking it as I can really see both sides of the argument to the extent that I don't really think one is 'right', so it's going to need agreement to be reached either amongst gaming groups or from an FAQ.

Lord Zarkov
11-07-2010, 17:55
The banner only prevents the unit from benefiting from Inspiring Presence, not from any nebulous 'cannot use the general's Ld' concept.
Obviously the General doesn't need to use Inspiring Presence as he already has his Ld, and the unit he leads don't need to use it either as p10 instructs us to use the highest Ld in the unit - this happening to be the General's (you wouldn't try and argue that the unit couldn't use any other character's Ld it happened to contain).

Hence using that banner to boost the General's Ld and then give others the boosted Ld via IP is 100% valid - it's not even ambiguous!

shelfunit.
11-07-2010, 18:19
I have a rulequestion that came up yesterday when I played Empire vs Dark Elves.

I had a General of the Empire in a unit of Greatswords. The Greatswords then had the Standard of Discipline - my idéa was that the General would get Ld10 for as long as he was in the unit (ergo all my units would have Ld10 within 12" of him) and that the Greatswords themselves would either have Ld9 (8+1) or Ld10 (using the largest Ld in the unit, wich was the Generals Ld9+1).

However, when I was forced to take a Ldtest on my first unit within 12" of the General and proclamied that I had Ld10 due to the General having Ld10 due to Standard of Discipline, and that he could give it to other units except the one he was in, I was called powergamer/rawabuser/cheater/etc by the crowd, and my argument that a General could still give his "Inspiring Presence" to other units than the one he was in was turned down since apparently since he was a part of the unit that can't use the Generals Ld, he can't use his own Ld and as such, he can't give Inspiring Presence to other units either.

So, is this a viable tactic or did I play wrong?

Can the General give his Ld+1 to his own unit for beeing the highest Ld in the unit and at the same time give I.P to friendlies within 12" or not?
(Or does it need a FAQ like almost everything else in this game right now?)

You were an empire player playing against dark elves, using a perfectly legal combination of items/rules and you were the one called a powergamer :wtf: I hope your opponent wasn't using multiple hydras or lord on dragon with the PoK or any unit champ with the RoH etc, etc...

Minsc
11-07-2010, 18:24
Thank you, but he didn't have a Hydra at all, nor a Dragon, nor RoH.
With that said, I consider Empire to be a stronger army than Dark Elves in 8th Ed. (and I play both.), but that's not what this topic is about ;)

RichBlake
11-07-2010, 18:35
I'd say that the FAQ is going to eventually say that the unit itself would use the General's leadership at +1 (so 10 or whatever) but everyone else would use the General's base leadership (so 9 in this case).

Arkh
11-07-2010, 23:05
I'd say that the FAQ is going to eventually say that the unit itself would use the General's leadership at +1 (so 10 or whatever) but everyone else would use the General's base leadership (so 9 in this case).

I can see it going one of two ways... either yes you can use that to boost the leadership of your general and thus all units within 12"

OR

Since the banner states that models in a unit that has the standard of discipline cannot use the Inspiring Presence special rule, the banner would squelch the ability from your General. And as such none of your units would be able to benefit from the 12" LD bubble.

Necromancy Black
12-07-2010, 00:30
The item is clear: The unit with the banner can not use inspiring presence. Nothing stops other units using Inspiring presense.

RAW is clear on this.

Also, wtf at saying the unit can't use the generals Ld because he was part of the unit that can't use his leadership, and therefore can't use his leadership? The general isn't using his Ld when Inspiring Presence is being used, another unit is using his.

Arkh
12-07-2010, 00:44
The item is clear: The unit with the banner can not use inspiring presence. Nothing stops other units using Inspiring presense.

RAW is clear on this.

Also, wtf at saying the unit can't use the generals Ld because he was part of the unit that can't use his leadership, and therefore can't use his leadership? The general isn't using his Ld when Inspiring Presence is being used, another unit is using his.

Hmm... yeah I don't know where I was going with that second one lol. I started over thinking it.

diggerydoom
12-07-2010, 00:57
However the inspiring presence rule is the rule which allows units to use the generals leadership. Therefore if the general is under the influence of the Standard then he cannot use the inspiring presence rule to pass his leadership to others.

This was how I read it- I was looking at that standard on a Slann Battle Standard (Ld 10 Cold Blooded, Stubborn :)

Arkh
12-07-2010, 01:28
That was what my random thought on it also interpreted, however Necromancy Black's point that the general isn't USING the Inspiring Presence, he is providing it, makes sense to me.

Necromancy Black
12-07-2010, 02:12
I'm going to have to get the wording of it again, cause from what I read it was clear as to how it worked.

May have misread it and or the inspiring presence rule, but I doubt it :p

diggerydoom
12-07-2010, 09:57
That was what my random thought on it also interpreted, however Necromancy Black's point that the general isn't USING the Inspiring Presence, he is providing it, makes sense to me.

By providing it the general is still a part of the Inspiring Presence rule and I was reading that as the general using it. I would like to be proven wrong though.

The BRB already needs a FAQ:)

Arkh
12-07-2010, 12:53
By providing it the general is still a part of the Inspiring Presence rule and I was reading that as the general using it. I would like to be proven wrong though.

The BRB already needs a FAQ:)

Yeah, unfortunately this rule comes down to semantics... So it really could be either way until GW releases something official.

Atrahasis
12-07-2010, 12:56
Every rule comes down to semantics, or are you arguing that most rules have no meaning?

Zaustus
12-07-2010, 14:26
My interpretation was that if you put the general in the unit, you effectively negate the standard's drawback, and get +1 LD on the general's bubble.

The wording is definitely ambiguous though, so I think we'll need to wait for an FAQ for a final answer. In the meantime, since my gaming group thought my interpretation sounded over-the-top, I'll probably not use it that way.

The wording is that the unit "cannot use the General's Inspiring Presence special rule." It comes down to the definition of "use." Does that mean benefit from, or provide, or both? I think the intention is that the unit can't benefit from the rule, but the General in the unit could still provide his bubble to others. And if he's in the unit, the unit wouldn't even need Inspiring Presence to use his leadership; they'd just use his as the highest in the unit.

Bah. Darn ambiguities.

Jetty Smurf
14-07-2010, 19:18
So would this mean that a unit of TG with a slann in it use their now +1'ed CB LD 9, and the slann provides a +1'ed CB LD 10 to every other unit within his BSB bubble?

Necromancy Black
14-07-2010, 22:53
I think stubborn works a lot different now and the unit itself is still able to use the highest Ld even if that model is not stubborn!

But until I see that confirmed I'm playing it the way above...Ld 10 Cold-Blooded bubble and a Ld9 Cold-Blooded stubborn unit.

Foxbat
14-07-2010, 23:15
I had a General of the Empire in a unit of Greatswords. The Greatswords then had the Standard of Discipline - my idéa was that the General would get Ld10 for as long as he was in the unit (ergo all my units would have Ld10 within 12" of him) and that the Greatswords themselves would either have Ld9 (8+1) or Ld10 (using the largest Ld in the unit, wich was the Generals Ld9+1).This is somewhat of a complicated situation, but can be answered by consulting the following rules that pertain to this issue:
(1) The rule for the Magic Item itself (BRB, pg 503);
(2) The “Special Rules” rule for Characters, specifically the second paragraph of this rule (BRB pg 100);
(3) The “Leadership Tests” rule for Characters (BRB pg 100); and
(4) The “Inspiring Presence” rule (BRB pg 107).

As it pertains to the Ld test for the unit, the unit would use Ld of the General +1. The logic follows that as the General is part of a unit the General benefits from the magic item (application of the Character rule “Special Rules” and the Magic Item’s rule) so the General does have an adjusted Ld of 10. As the General has the highest Ld in the unit, it’s Ld is used for the test (application of the Character rule “Leadership Tests”). As the unit is not using the “Inspiring Presence” to access the General’s Ld that portion of the rule is complied with, but in this case has no impact.

Now as to which Ld value should other units without the Banner of Discipline use within 12" of the General, the answer here again is the General's Ld +1. The logic follows as the General is part of a unit the General benefits from the magic item (application of the Character rule “Special Rules” and the Magic Item’s rule) so the General does have an adjusted Ld of 10. As the model is in fact the General of the army, units within 12” may benefit from his Ld (application of the “Inspiring Presence” rule). Since none of these units are carrying the Banner of Discipline, they are not precluded from using the “Inspiring Presence” rule.

WarmbloodedLizard
14-07-2010, 23:24
The item is 100% clear and doesn't need an FAQ in any way.

Necromancy Black
15-07-2010, 00:09
So would this mean that a unit of TG with a slann in it use their now +1'ed CB LD 9, and the slann provides a +1'ed CB LD 10 to every other unit within his BSB bubble?

Manage to get my own copy of the rules now and I can tell you that in 8th edition non-Stubborn character become stubborn when they join a stubborn unit. Therefor the TG unit with be stubborn on Ld 10 with Cold-Blooded. This isn't from using the general's Inspiring Presense, this is just from the Slann being Ld 10 and becoming stubborn by joining a stubborn unit.

Khorneflakes
15-07-2010, 00:45
would that standard help a beastman unit using the beastlords ld for primal fury tests?

Foxbat
15-07-2010, 01:07
Manage to get my own copy of the rules now and I can tell you that in 8th edition non-Stubborn character become stubborn when they join a stubborn unit. Therefor the TG unit with be stubborn on Ld 10 with Cold-Blooded. This isn't from using the general's Inspiring Presense, this is just from the Slann being Ld 10 and becoming stubborn by joining a stubborn unit.How about this one, Noble joins unit of While Lions that has the Banner of Discipline, the unit now has Stubborn Ld 10...:cool:

ooglatjama
15-07-2010, 01:19
How about this one, Noble joins unit of While Lions that has the Banner of Discipline, the unit now has Stubborn Ld 10...:cool:

That isn't so uncommon anymore though :(

Zaustus
15-07-2010, 04:56
@Foxbat: That's exactly how I'd been thinking of it. I guess I'll push harder on my gaming group and let them know this is really how it works.

Since it does, expect to see this combo A LOT.

Palantir
16-07-2010, 11:28
I'm gonna bump this up since I'm more or less building my army around this exact idea. Banner of Discipline in a Bestigor unit with a Beastlord and a BSB in it. LD 10 with rerolls for all is pretty sweet, but I fear this will be FAQ'd to my disadvantage, seeing as the banner is only 15 points I don't think it was meant to be this powerful.

I checked out the rules for generals and it is possible to interpret it to mean that since the banner says "models in this unit cannot use the generals inspiring presence", the general loses the rule if he joins the unit.

This could mean that he cannot give units within 12" the benefit of his LD while in the unit, or it could mean that the unit itself cannot use the generals LD at all, OR it could mean that the unit cannot use the generals LD granted through Inspiring Presence if he is outside the unit.

Let's hear some more thougths on this.

Necromancy Black
16-07-2010, 11:52
More thoughts? This forum already has pretty much both sides present and argued for, what more is there?

Palantir
16-07-2010, 11:54
More thoughts? This forum already has pretty much both sides present and argued for, what more is there?

A consensus ;)

Atrahasis
16-07-2010, 11:55
Consensus is anathema to the internet.

Godgolden
16-07-2010, 11:57
Really really dont like what this standard has done to the game, if it couldnt improve the general then i would have no problem with it.

makes leadership icnreasingly worthless.

Palantir
16-07-2010, 11:58
Maybe this is the exception that confirmes the rule.

/optimistic

Leth Shyish'phak
16-07-2010, 16:21
Consensus is anathema to the internet.

No it isn't.

Arkh
17-07-2010, 00:25
yes this item will be common in combination with a general.... But I don't consider that a bad thing at all. I think of this combination as the advantage you get for not sticking your lord on a monster.

There's nothing wrong with giving armies the option of having better leaders as opposed to better fighters...

Zaustus
17-07-2010, 05:23
No it isn't.

I see what you did there... :shifty: