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Blitz001
11-07-2010, 19:18
can a salamander march and fire? or does the codex overrule the skirmishing rule?

jet_palero
11-07-2010, 21:39
I think this is a fuzzy one. Codex says they're skirmishers, only the hunting pack paragraph was removed.

Back of BRB says that they're warbeasts. (Which means they've got swiftstride also btw).

March and fire is supposed to provide a -1 to hit, but they're firing a war machine attack which doesn't use BS. I would say salamander CAN shoot and march, as long as they retain the skirmisher rule.

Note, since they're skirmishers enemies are at a -1 to hit firing at them as well, but you would have to rank up your salamanders 1/2" apart, all facing the same direction if you buy more than 1 per unit. which might happen given that you could have SIX of them in your battle line that way. This does limit their LOS some, but I sure wouldn't want to be in front of 3 salamanders. . .

kaintxu
11-07-2010, 22:27
Yes they can march and shoot, since its shooting and as stated above they are skirmirshes.

-1 to hit is not for marching and shooting, its just for normal moving, and it's not a warmachine attack, its a template attack. template is not warmachine, dragons have allways use it.

Sallies, have just become great, moving 12" and shotting means they can hit opponent on first turn with a lucky roll on the artillery die. Also, with coldbloded you its easier to past LD test so you can march so opponents facing your are no longer facing you and shoot at them :D so no you have no longer to be that worried about being on charge distance

Blitz001
12-07-2010, 01:49
thank you a lot for the responses, i cant wait to use these bad boys. :D

Sloppyjayman
12-07-2010, 16:49
Can anyone else confirm this?

Dokushin
12-07-2010, 20:39
Salamanders are skirmishers. Skirmishers (explicitly) can march and shoot.

Good catch on the warbeasts business; that makes them even better.

jaxom
12-07-2010, 21:28
Can anyone else confirm this?

The BRB? Perhaps the right question would be "Can anyone find a rule that somehow limits shooting attacks by Salamanders more than any other Skirmisher?" I certainly have not found any such limit.

Kugruk
12-07-2010, 21:48
The BRB? Perhaps the right question would be "Can anyone find a rule that somehow limits shooting attacks by Salamanders more than any other Skirmisher?" I certainly have not found any such limit.

It does not say in the armybook that they can not. It does say in the skirmisher rules in the BRB that they can. I'm not sure how much more confirmation you need?

prelude_to_war
16-12-2010, 14:59
I emailed GW (US) posing this question and received this response:


Greetings! Thank you for writing in to us! The Salamanders may not march and fire their breath weapons as they are not infantry skirmishers.

...which makes sense to me.

TheRolfgar
16-12-2010, 15:16
If the entire rule for skirmishing ONLY applied to infantry models (and based on your question and answer from GW you need to take all of it or none of it) then why would they have the Skirmisher special rule in the army book?

The army book doesn't give a special ability that does nothing, it gives a special ability that overrides the BRB (at the top of the Skirmisher section in the BRB it states skirmishers are "light infantry troops", however it is never mentioned later on the page).

If they can't march and shoot based on not being infantry then they need errata to ignore the skirmisher special rule because you would have to ignore all of it not just the march and fire portion.

Edit: They also don't have a "breath weapon" they have a template attack that fires like a fire thrower. It makes me wonder if the person who answered your question actually read the army book rules.

prelude_to_war
16-12-2010, 15:22
Agreed; an updated FAQ is needed to address it. This is probably one of those things overlooked when they introduced the different troop types.

That said if/when they FAQ the march & shooting part, skirmishing Salamanders could still have its uses; free reform, light troops, etc.

scruffyryan
16-12-2010, 21:40
Emailing customer service is as useful as divining the future through entrails, that answer sounds like someone who just decided it sounded cheesy and said no.

There's no mention of different "types" of skirmishers anywhere in any publication or faq.

Your CS guy just pulled that answer out of his butt.

prelude_to_war
16-12-2010, 21:44
Yeah I received similar skepticism over on The Warhammer Forum. I had no idea GW customer service was universally regarded as useless in situations like this. They should rename it to Customer Semi-service.

Malorian
16-12-2010, 21:48
Yeah I received similar skepticism over on The Warhammer Forum. I had no idea GW customer service was universally regarded as useless in situations like this. They should rename it to Customer Semi-service.

I just save time and shake my magic eight-ball...


P.S. As for the this issue the magic eight-ball said...

Maybe

theunwantedbeing
16-12-2010, 22:29
They skirmish, so follow the skimish rules.
One of which is they get to march and shoot.

Simple enough.

Rules from GW that aren't errata's are about as valid as those from your local redshirt, or blueshirt, or his dog, if he has one. Your generally better off asking a stranger in the street.

scruffyryan
17-12-2010, 01:56
A fun pastime is to use leading language in your questions, making it obvious which result you HOPE it is via tone and word choice and then having a friend do the same thing taking a different side.

Or to send in the question 3 different times on 3 different occasions and just use whichever answer comes up 2 out of 3

Stumpy
17-12-2010, 02:12
You want an answer to a question? Ask us, that's what these forums are here for. Customer service is there for when a box is missing a sprue or similar stuff that applies specifically to you, they're not great when there's something wrong that applies to everyone (ie silly rules).
Salamanders may march and fire, there is no argument to the contrary. Not that I would mind them being nerfed in an FAQ, I use them and they're just dumb at times.

prelude_to_war
17-12-2010, 02:54
they're not great when there's something wrong that applies to everyone (ie silly rules).
I'm quickly learning that this is the case. I'd assumed my question - if asked enough - would be addressed in the next FAQ. That said, I'm not quite sure how questions make their way to the powers that be if emailing customer service is a dead end. Oh well.

scruffyryan
17-12-2010, 04:20
You want an answer to a question? Ask us, that's what these forums are here for. Customer service is there for when a box is missing a sprue or similar stuff that applies specifically to you, they're not great when there's something wrong that applies to everyone (ie silly rules).
Salamanders may march and fire, there is no argument to the contrary. Not that I would mind them being nerfed in an FAQ, I use them and they're just dumb at times.

I'm not sure removing the ability to move and fire wouldn't relegate salamanders to the scrap heap due to the wide variability + misfire chance on their range. when 13 inches is a 50/50 shot at landing a charge for most people the time spent maneuvering to get a shot off via marches may well lead to the unit you were about to barf on being in close combat by the time you're in position more often than not.

I'm more inclined toward a simple reduction in the strength of the attack, drop it to 2, it should be less devastating on units as a whole and bring it in line with the plagueclaw catapult. Then, other than the hellcannon (which costs twice as much or more than other options, the "if you take a wound you take a panic test" type templates are either armor reducing/ignoring at str 2, or str 3 with full armor.

H33D
18-12-2010, 02:39
Seeing as all of the rules present state that Salamanders CAN march and shoot I would certainly allow it. Especially considering the fact that Razordons are nearly identical but GW went through all of the trouble to include a rule that specifically says Razordons may NOT march and shoot.

Voss
18-12-2010, 05:59
Emailing customer service is as useful as divining the future through entrails, that answer sounds like someone who just decided it sounded cheesy and said no.

There's no mention of different "types" of skirmishers anywhere in any publication or faq.

Your CS guy just pulled that answer out of his butt.

I didn't think GW customer service fielded rules questions anymore. Partly because they were so bad at it, but mostly because, well this is what the customer service page says:


Our Customer Service department is equipped to handle any questions or problems you may have with an order or product. Use this number to report problems with an order, let us know about missing or damaged components, or have us answer any queries about your order.

Order status and damaged product seems to be their only bag these days.

Shaman69
19-12-2010, 20:56
Quote from the BRB page 77 preamble to the skirmishers rule "skirmishers are light infantry troops" since it has been pointed out earlier in this thread that Salamanders are not infantry they could not qualify to be skirmishers, they are war beasts, and should use the monsters and handlers rules

scruffyryan
19-12-2010, 22:10
You're really going to base it off the preamble to an actual rule?

greenmonsta
19-12-2010, 23:24
The preamble is there for fluff reasons, to give a general idea of the rule or unit and that is why it is in italics. It is in no way a part of the skirmish rules which are in normal print. IMO you can't base an argument on the preamble. It isn't a part of the actual rules.

Shadowfane
20-12-2010, 22:00
I'm not sure removing the ability to move and fire wouldn't relegate salamanders to the scrap heap due to the wide variability + misfire chance on their range. when 13 inches is a 50/50 shot at landing a charge for most people the time spent maneuvering to get a shot off via marches may well lead to the unit you were about to barf on being in close combat by the time you're in position more often than not.

I'm more inclined toward a simple reduction in the strength of the attack, drop it to 2, it should be less devastating on units as a whole and bring it in line with the plagueclaw catapult. Then, other than the hellcannon (which costs twice as much or more than other options, the "if you take a wound you take a panic test" type templates are either armor reducing/ignoring at str 2, or str 3 with full armor.

Erm, I direct your attention to the Warpfire Thrower - strength 5, and causes panic if you take a wound - just saying :P

Also, wow, I registered just to post that? God, I must be feeling bored... :P

scruffyryan
21-12-2010, 23:57
Erm, I direct your attention to the Warpfire Thrower - strength 5, and causes panic if you take a wound - just saying :P

Also, wow, I registered just to post that? God, I must be feeling bored... :P

Much more dangerous misfire chart

Chiungalla
22-12-2010, 06:27
Quote from the BRB page 77 preamble to the skirmishers rule "skirmishers are light infantry troops" since it has been pointed out earlier in this thread that Salamanders are not infantry they could not qualify to be skirmishers, they are war beasts, and should use the monsters and handlers rules

Army books override the basic rulebook, and the army book says skirmisher.
Problem solved.

Shadowfane
22-12-2010, 12:47
Much more dangerous misfire chart

Oh, I don't deny that, I was just pointing out that the original premise was wrong :)

Noght
22-12-2010, 12:59
I predict that when they get around to the FAQ for this situation you will have Skirmishing Salamander Unit (War Beast and Handlers) but because it is a War Beast it will not be allowed to move and breath fire.

I'd guess that the Salamander in it's current incarnation is probably a bit overpowered with all the Skirmisher benefits combined with the Template benefits. I predict some balance restoration or a price increase for skirmishing/moving/breathing.

Just my .02 cents.

Noght

Chiungalla
22-12-2010, 14:02
I predict that when they get around to the FAQ for this situation you will have Skirmishing Salamander Unit (War Beast and Handlers) but because it is a War Beast it will not be allowed to move and breath fire.

I predict that this will never ever be addressed in a FAQ. Since it's clear with the rules, and GW does not make balance-changes through FAQs on a regular basis.

Avian
22-12-2010, 15:20
Quote from the BRB page 77 preamble to the skirmishers rule "skirmishers are light infantry troops" since it has been pointed out earlier in this thread that Salamanders are not infantry they could not qualify to be skirmishers, they are war beasts, and should use the monsters and handlers rules
Some vague introductory fluff does not equal rules. The Swiftstride special rule only mentioned creatures with feet or hooves, so I guess you would say that wolves (paws) and boars (trotters) don't get it, then?

Jericho
22-12-2010, 18:49
I want to play against Orcs so I can argue that his cavalry don't get swiftstride. Sounds like a good laugh :D

Ramius4
22-12-2010, 18:55
I want to play against Orcs so I can argue that his cavalry don't get swiftstride. Sounds like a good laugh :D

A word to the wise... If your opponent isn't laughing, let it go :p