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fenrisnorth
12-07-2010, 02:12
So the hell pit abomination seems to be unstoppable.

It always moves 3d6, and due to the shape of its base can get an extra few inches from the pivot. Cannot fail a charge, cannot march block, 360 line of sight, and unless the FAQ cleared it up can get a flank charge from a far broader angle than a normal unit.
With the addition of Thunder Stomp It gets between 2 and 5d6 S6 attacks, most of which hit automatically.

At 250 points you can have 1 per thousand points of the army.

I simply cannot beat them. I can sometimes tar pit them with massive blocks of infantry, who cost more than the abomination does and will inevitably lose.

Looking at the numbers I don't see anything in the game that can go toe to toe and survive, certainly nothing that doesn't cost 2-3 times as much as the abomination.

I used to be able to take them down with massed missile fire, but once again the abomination always kills or at least ties up several times its points worth of missile troops, and now that units grant hard cover and the +1 to hit for large targets is gone this strategy no longer works.

The only thing I can think of is just throwing mass war machine fire at it, but the problem is that none of the armies I play are particularly war machine heavy, and if I do play a "gun line" this makes my army not fun to play and frowned upon by anyone not taking an abomination.

Rogzor87
12-07-2010, 02:15
Make it panic away... Or hit it with 1 flaming attack then blow it out of the water since it loses regen for the rest of the turn.

Witchblade
12-07-2010, 02:20
In general, you are screwed. You're right that the HPA is one of the most broken units in the game and some armies simply do not have reliable counters to it.

List tailoring and specific units/builds work, depending on your army (which armies do you play?). Notably, the flaming attacks banner or flaming magic (e.g. bound fireball).

Rogzor87
12-07-2010, 02:27
Easiest way is to panic it away. Its LD 8.

airmang
12-07-2010, 03:02
Make it panic away... Or hit it with 1 flaming attack then blow it out of the water since it loses regen for the rest of the turn.

It only loses Regen for the rest of the Phase, not turn, that it was wounded by a flaming attack.

fenrisnorth
12-07-2010, 03:11
Vampire Counts, Bretonnia, Ogres and Beastmen.

Before the removal of large target and units granting cover I could whittle it down with trebuchets and peasants with flaming arrows, now not so much, and certainly not before it has well more than its points worth of knights.

Vampire counts I can bury it in skeletons with the hellfire banner and it will eventually die, but not before taking out well more than its own point value worth of skeletons and sucking up most of my power dice which are needed elsewhere on the field.

With beast men and ogres I don't even try. I honestly think that the HPAs alone could take out any thousand points I could throw at it from either army book. The only thing I can think of is getting lucky on magic, but so far that has always failed (or backfired spectacular - e.g. Pann's hide vs. a screaming bell)

Sygerrik
12-07-2010, 03:23
Easiest way is to panic it away. Its LD 8.

would work if it wasn't ItP

Anything that has flaming attacks or multiplies wounds is your only option. Remember that if you deal one flaming hit it loses its only save for the turn, and it's T5, NOT T6 (as some people seem to believe).

Rogzor87
12-07-2010, 03:24
would work if it wasn't ItP

Anything that has flaming attacks or multiplies wounds is your only option. Remember that if you deal one flaming hit it loses its only save for the turn, and it's T5, NOT T6 (as some people seem to believe).

Its not immune to panic. Which is something alot of people seem to think it is.

Skyros
12-07-2010, 03:28
The HPA is definitely absurd. It's one of the few monsters that can't be reliably tarpitted by infantry blocks because it can flip out and deal 18 S6 attacks in one turn. (I've had it happen).

Plus, when you DO finally manage to kill it, it can come back!

If there's someone you play who routinely takes more than one HPA I'd take that as a symbol to take the absolute most cheesiest list you can get.

Flaming attacks that negate regeneration are good, but not all armies have good access to flaming attacks. You can get a flaming attacks magic banner now in 8th.

If you play brettonia, get a character with heroic killing blow, find a way to pump up his # of attacks and/or get rerolls, and try to take out the HPA in one round of combat.

qwertycg
12-07-2010, 03:48
As a person that uses one I will say they are annoying. They are hard as hell to kill. When you finally do there is a chance it pops right back up and starts its annoying cycle all over. I will say Cannons and hell master volley guns are you friends against it. Avoid it in combat at all cost. It has I 4 which most people dont remember and get pissed after they charge to find that out.

madden
12-07-2010, 06:53
Plus if any wound on it is by flames it can't come back.

decker_cky
12-07-2010, 07:01
Every army has access to fireball and a flaming banner now, meaning even beastmen and ogres can deal with it. It also now charges about the same as ranked infantry. The 360 degree charge is awesome, but it's not fast anymore.

fenrisnorth
12-07-2010, 08:00
The charge itself isn't terribly fast, but the creature can never fail a charge or be march blocked and has 360 degree charge as well as a few bonus inches due to the way pivoting on a chariot base works. All told it is a VERY maneuverable unit.

Also, you get a single magic banner in the entire ogre army outside the bsb, which must be carried by iron guts (a very subpar unit) I cannot see spending it on flaming attacks unless I am tailoring my list to beat the HPA.

The goal is not to make an army tailored to beat an abomination, it's to find a tactical solution for the 1-3 I can expect skaven players to bring to any competitive environment.

eyescrossed
12-07-2010, 11:44
iron guts (a very subpar unit)
I stopped reading when I got to this point.

Eternus
12-07-2010, 13:58
The goal is not to make an army tailored to beat an abomination, it's to find a tactical solution for the 1-3 I can expect skaven players to bring to any competitive environment.

Ok, this got me freaking out.......

My suggestions are as follows:

Run, run for your life! Seriously though, unless you tarpit it with Zombies (which are the only thing you can raise fast enough to keep it busy), then you will have to dedicate some serious offfence to take even one of these horrible things out. I cannot believe the investment in points it takes to destroy this thing compared to it's cost - it should either cost a good 50% more points, or it should lose it's 360 degree move, because that is what makes it so dangerous - it's almost impossible to block, you can't bait it, but you can't ignore it either because it's really fast and it will eat you.

Serious suggestions, sorry these are all VC flavoured, but hope some will give you ideas for your own army:

1. Tarpit

2. Tooled up character with a Flaming attack, like a Vampire Lord, Mounted, Balefire Spike (Flaming Lance) Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, ideally teamed with a Varghulf. These two will cost around 600 points together, but should shred an Abomination in one charge unless you're unlucky.

3. If it's not upgraded with magic attacks, then a block of Ethereals, like a Spirit Host or Cairn Wraiths and Banshee - it can't hurt them without help, but they can hurt it (occasionally), and so you don't have to invest fistfuls of power dice replenishing them either.

4. Magical Combo - Staff of Flaming Death. Ok, it's only D6 strength 4 hits, but all you need to do is cause 1 wound to remove it's Regen for the phase, then you hit it with Gaze of Nagash as many times as you can - 2D6 strength 4 hits will take it down pretty fast if it gets no Regeneration roll.

5. If possible, avoid it by keeping enemy units between your units and the Abomination - tricky, but maybe useful to remember under certain circumstances, because when it moves it pivots first, then moves in a straight line - this is it's only 'weakness'. You can make it overrun in the direction you want if you can dictate what units it charges, but because you can't bait it this could be tricky.

The thing you have to accept about this monstrosity is that it's killyness far outweighs it's points cost, so it will take a much bigger investment to kill it than it is worth, but if you don't it will also kill far more than it's own value in stuff, so it has to be done. If you can come uo with something that will work that can then go on to do some real damage to the rest of the enemy army, so much the better.

Good luck dude.

Witchblade
12-07-2010, 14:08
Blood knights with a flaming attacks banner (hellfire/eternal flame thing) should eliminate it on the charge. As could other hard hitters, like grail knights and possibly ironguts with a character.

Flaming peasant arrow fire followed by trebuchet shots should work.

Sygerrik
12-07-2010, 16:21
Its not immune to panic. Which is something alot of people seem to think it is.

Ack! I withdraw my objection. It's the Doomwheel that's ItP. I should have read closer!

fenrisnorth
12-07-2010, 20:44
I stopped reading when I got to this point.


Thank you for your helpful and informative contribution to the thread. :rolleyes:

Seriously, every time I have taken them (which is more than a few) they draw a ton of missile fire which their heavy armor does little to stop or they get charged by something faster than they are or charge something with ASF and then by the time they get to strike with their I2 great weapons they have suffered to many casualties they only get a few attacks back and lose by combat res. They may be better now that they can strike in ranks though, I have not tried them in eight edition.

Argent
12-07-2010, 20:53
The goal is not to make an army tailored to beat an abomination, it's to find a tactical solution for the 1-3 I can expect skaven players to bring to any competitive environment.

As many people have said, if you truly want to stop the Hellpit Abomination, you have to kill it with fire.

Also, don't be so terrified of it that you absolutely refuse to engage it without fire. One of my Crowning Moments of Awesome was when a unit of 20 Swordmasters and a BSB took out a Hellpitt Abomination in the front and a Doomwheel in the back (Shield of Saphrey, I love you ...); yeah, he got two Rat Swarms out of it, but considering my Swordmasters pursued away, they really didn't do much of anything.

Zinch
12-07-2010, 21:09
God, every time I read a thread like this, I love a little bit more my amazing flaming cannons... :p

Spoonie
12-07-2010, 21:16
Well they're I2 anyways, so having great weapons is like getting +2 str with no down side, really. The only real downside to them is that they're so expensive, and alot of that is paying for overkill. Unless you're facing alot of T4 with a good save or monsters, naked bulls can whoop on T3, 5+ save troops almost as well for cheaper.

Edit: lol right there with ya Zinch. Flaming hand gunners might well become an Empire staple as well.

thechosenone
13-07-2010, 00:06
I ran a hellpit in my last game against my best friend who runs ogres. The Hellpit did rack up the most kills, four man eaters, two lead belchers, a butcher and six bulls. The thing is, as good as it was, it was the only thing getting reliable killing power for me. My globadiers mostly killed themselves and my stormvermin are fairly average. Its like the whole killing power of an army packed into one unit. Is that so bad? I don't know, maybe?

So i did score some impressive victories with Crack's Call vs Ogres but that was situation i think. The Hbomb is just a lot of killing power in an army that doesn't have much killing power. It does fine with static res sure and its magic is pretty good but is it really so bad to have one unit that owns in an army of sub par fighters mostly? I'm ok with it.

fenrisnorth
13-07-2010, 00:42
Skaven are not bad in close combat. Rat ogres are every bit as good as regular ogres especially if led by the special character pack master, and Plague monks / censer bearers are incredibly good as well.
With the new stead fast and fear rules (which may or may not stack with strength in numbers) along with the 18'' leadership bubble from the screaming bell I am pretty sure that even clan rats / slaves / storm vermin can hold their own against most anything in the ogre army. And then there are assassins to worry about. And the hell pit abomination isn't the only close combat monster they have, the doom wheel and the plague furnace are almost as good.
But skaven also have very good war machines and shooting, especially the doom wheel against multi wound models like ogres. They are definitely one of the better armies as far as shooting and their magic is none too shabby, especially when supplemented by the screaming bell.

Sygerrik
13-07-2010, 02:04
With the new stead fast and fear rules (which may or may not stack with strength in numbers)

they do. read the faq.

fenrisnorth
13-07-2010, 02:10
they do. read the faq.

I have read the FAQ. Myself and every person who has read it thinks it clearly says they do not. You clearly think it does. As there are several dozen page threads arguing over the meaning of this FAQ I would say that it is safe to say the that there is no clear consensus one way or the other.'

This argument has been going on for far longer than eight edition or skaven. I remember people getting into arguments in seventh edition about whether magic items or spells that modified leadership could affect stubborn models, and to my knowledge GW never gave a clear answer.

Sinaris
13-07-2010, 03:26
High Elves:
Flaming Swords of Rhuin + LSG, Archers could put the hurt on nicely.
Putting it on our elites would make them lose their bonus from weapons, so I guess only White Lions would benefit any more than the rest of their bretheren.

Of course then theres always the flaming banner and thats where our Elites would really shine, and I can finally see a unit of Dragon Princes Valiantly smashing into a monster, like their fluff describes and winning victoriously.

arkirk246
13-07-2010, 07:26
I have read the FAQ. Myself and every person who has read it thinks it clearly says they do not. You clearly think it does. As there are several dozen page threads arguing over the meaning of this FAQ I would say that it is safe to say the that there is no clear consensus one way or the other.'

This argument has been going on for far longer than eight edition or skaven. I remember people getting into arguments in seventh edition about whether magic items or spells that modified leadership could affect stubborn models, and to my knowledge GW never gave a clear answer.

Have you read the shiny new 8ed Skaven FAQ???? From my understanding they do get the SiN now with steadfast,

Idle Scholar
13-07-2010, 08:11
Why oh why couldn't GW have given Skaven a decent but not stupidly overpowered rare monster? I mean with the exception of Rat Ogres (PCB's now suck quite badly with the int rules) and characters the Skaven army has nothing that can cause a lot of kills in close combat. In fact the only armies that can be beaten purely by kills are the likes of goblins or undead. So a decent killy monster is very nice to have. It's just not nice to have one that generally takes twice as many points to kill as it costs and breaks most of the movement rules.

Sinaris
13-07-2010, 08:48
Having thought about it, IMO any army with access to Lore of Fire can deal with them - Flaming Swords of Rhuin does NOT replace the weapon the unit is wielding, just buffs it with fire.

Flaming Chariots of Doom? Flaming Knights? How about a Bolt Thrower shooting Flame Bolts at it. These monsters, whilst tough, are not, at least in my oppinion the be all and end all.

Eternus
13-07-2010, 09:37
These monsters, whilst tough, are not, at least in my oppinion the be all and end all.

As long as you do have access to Flame attacks and the Lore of Fire that is......

Although a good option, this is just another example of how much effect this thing has on opposing army selection.

fenrisnorth
13-07-2010, 09:46
Have you read the shiny new 8ed Skaven FAQ???? From my understanding they do get the SiN now with steadfast,

Yes, I have read it. The first sentence seems to imply that they do not stack, that part in parenthesis seems to imply that it does.

I am pretty sure that GW will rule it the latter based on precedent.

But I am saying at the moment it is not agreed upon. Go look at one of the many other threads on the subject if you don't believe me, just please don't turn this thread into one of them.

Mandragola
13-07-2010, 10:53
I think a BSB with the flaming banner will be a pretty handy thing to have in an army. There are all sorts of times it would come in handy to do a few flaming wounds to a target and this guy could move around between units as required (probably from game to game rather than turn to turn).

eyescrossed
13-07-2010, 11:45
Too bad Ogres don't :cries:

A unit of Ironguts with that Flaming Attacks banner and a Battle Standard Bearer with that reroll attacks banner could take it down.

Too bad that's a good deal more than the HPA's cost.

EDIT: Screw it. People who field a Doomwheel AND a HPA deserve to be cheesed in return.

Ohwait, Ogres don't have cheese, hahaha.

Rogzor87
13-07-2010, 12:33
Scare it off the board!!!!!!!!!!!!! its not immune to panic... LD 8.

Sygerrik
13-07-2010, 15:48
Q. How does the ‘Strength in numbers’ rule interact with the
‘Steadfast’ rule? (p33)
A. The Strength in Numbers rule is applied after the Steadfast
rule (i.e. ranks are added to the unmodified Leadership)

I honestly do not see how that can possibly be interpreted by any reasonable person to imply that it does not stack. You apply the Steadfast rule, meaning you test on your base leadership of 5-7. Then, before you roll, you add the ranks of your unit to get the final leadership value. You roll, compare to that final value, and determine whether or not you break from that.

GW has released some opaque rulings but this is not one of them. I've already played in an 8th edition launch tourney and every opponent, as well as the TO, agreed that they stack based on this FAQ.

Zinch
13-07-2010, 15:59
Q. How does the ‘Strength in numbers’ rule interact with the
‘Steadfast’ rule? (p33)
A. The Strength in Numbers rule is applied after the Steadfast
rule (i.e. ranks are added to the unmodified Leadership)

I honestly do not see how that can possibly be interpreted by any reasonable person to imply that it does not stack. You apply the Steadfast rule, meaning you test on your base leadership of 5-7. Then, before you roll, you add the ranks of your unit to get the final leadership value. You roll, compare to that final value, and determine whether or not you break from that.

GW has released some opaque rulings but this is not one of them. I've already played in an 8th edition launch tourney and every opponent, as well as the TO, agreed that they stack based on this FAQ.

The question here is when are the CR modifiers aplied, and as I see it, they are aplied after adding the rank bonus, so they modify the Ld (until the limit of the base Ld, as this is unmodificable).
But, again, there are a lot of threads talking about this, just look at them. I guess we must wait for an official clarification.

Skyros
13-07-2010, 16:15
The question here is when are the CR modifiers aplied, and as I see it, they are aplied after adding the rank bonus, so they modify the Ld

If you are steadfast, there are no CR modifiers.

RMacDeezy
13-07-2010, 16:22
as mentioned before, i think the HPA's leadership is its weakness. after feeding my greater daemon to it the first time i faced one, i tooled up a herald of slaanesh to face it with a torment blade and the LD nerf banner. after a couple turns of being unable to attack due to the torment blade, the thing finally scurried off after losing combat w/ a daemonette block. the whole plan was very fragile and could easily have failed and i had to use about 500 pts for 2 turns to stop the thing. point is, i managed to beat it by attacking its LD cuz the thing is unbeatable in CC and shrugs off shooting and magic like its cool

eyescrossed
13-07-2010, 22:21
as mentioned before, i think the HPA's leadership is its weakness. after feeding my greater daemon to it the first time i faced one, i tooled up a herald of slaanesh to face it with a torment blade and the LD nerf banner. after a couple turns of being unable to attack due to the torment blade, the thing finally scurried off after losing combat w/ a daemonette block. the whole plan was very fragile and could easily have failed and i had to use about 500 pts for 2 turns to stop the thing. point is, i managed to beat it by attacking its LD cuz the thing is unbeatable in CC and shrugs off shooting and magic like its cool

Braingobbler just got a very good use :evilgrin:

thechosenone
14-07-2010, 04:44
Why oh why couldn't GW have given Skaven a decent but not stupidly overpowered rare monster? I mean with the exception of Rat Ogres (PCB's now suck quite badly with the int rules) and characters the Skaven army has nothing that can cause a lot of kills in close combat. In fact the only armies that can be beaten purely by kills are the likes of goblins or undead. So a decent killy monster is very nice to have. It's just not nice to have one that generally takes twice as many points to kill as it costs and breaks most of the movement rules.

See you said it yourself but you're preaching it as a bad thing. If the skaven can't rack up reliable kills in combat and its boring to win through res(and very unsatisfying too) why not give one face rocker huh? So what it takes 500 or 700 pts too kill, it takes a lot less to pick off a slave unit or clan rats? Give them two killer units, abomb and rogers.

eyescrossed
14-07-2010, 05:57
See you said it yourself but you're preaching it as a bad thing. If the skaven can't rack up reliable kills in combat and its boring to win through res(and very unsatisfying too) why not give one face rocker huh? So what it takes 500 or 700 pts too kill, it takes a lot less to pick off a slave unit or clan rats? Give them two killer units, abomb and rogers.

Uhh... What?

20 Slaves is 40 points. I can't find myself something that's 40 points that could take on 20 Slaves.

thechosenone
14-07-2010, 13:45
regarding the slaves, even if your playing point denial it doesn't help. I mean, 600 of them would be like roughly 1200 points. That's not even half the points of a 3000 pts game, that's not the greatest points denial.

Slaves are few points for no real gain.
*they don't kill things in combat
*they don't maneuver well with such a large sized unit.
*Its unwieldy for tabletop play(The amount of dice you'd need, the movement trays, the model investment) Things are good on paper and unplayable in games because of the logistics. If you see anymore than an 80 man slave unit then i'd be shocked. And if your playing proxy or dice counters for slaves then shame shame shame.
*Slaves are no fun to run. Its a block of things that won't kill anything, yippy. Your combat and shooting phase will amount to dull attrition and winning through combat res. Hope you enjoy games where you pack away dead models after combat phases while your opponent is fleeing even after killing a score of models. I don't. I favor clan rats and storm vermin because i like knowing i can enjoy one of the phases of the game.

My point is, slaves is not a counter argument to Abomb. It gets nothing done. It just sits there and is avoided and even if its brought to the table its a huge gaming annoyance.

The skaven have two units that rock now. Rogers and Abomb. Everything else is a high initiative fragile troop that's easily beaten. I don't feel sorry for other armies, they have a much more diverse and deadly grouping of units.

How do i feel about two Abombs on the table though? Its the noobs answer on how to win. There's not tactic in that. I don't feel bad again. I feel its a dork list that deserves to be avoided because of creativity issues but i don't feel its cheating or abuse.

Eternus
14-07-2010, 15:37
Scare it off the board!!!!!!!!!!!!! its not immune to panic... LD 8.

Ok, good ways to make it panic? Does Staff of Flaming Death still cause Panic? Bear in mind as well that if the Skaven player is anything like Idle Scholar, his Warlord and BSB will be safely tucked away behind his main line of units and allowing the HPA a re-roll on that Stubborn Ld8, so making it Panic won't be easy.

Rogzor87
14-07-2010, 20:46
HPA generally isn't on the main line. Its off to the side killing something. In addition, Skaven generals have less LD so it doesn't matter if one is close.

Honestly I think the best bet as I stated originally in this post and from what a couple others said is to attack it LD of the HPA. Either using equipment that target LD or spells. For attacking LD can be greatly used against almost ALL armies Rather then tailoring/tooling your army against the specific HPA or other regen creatures.


Now good ways to make it panic... Destroy or make a unit withen 6" of it flee. Spells that can cause it to panic, Magical Items that can cause it to panic, Attacks that cause panic if it does 1 wound to a unit(Warpfire throwers/Salamanders)

w3rm
15-07-2010, 01:25
Oh yea sallies are great against HPA now that I think about it.

Roark
15-07-2010, 02:06
A Hellcannon shot in its ugly, genetically-engineered face = Panic test @ -1Ld.

soots
15-07-2010, 03:00
Ld8 panic test is not a solution.

If your plan to kill something has that low an odds then you arent a good general.

Djekar
15-07-2010, 04:06
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's not a solution.

I'm not claiming it's 100% effective, but it's 8th edition now, nothing is 100% effective anymore.

Trains_Get_Robbed
15-07-2010, 05:10
The Abomb isn't undefeatable, just ask my Skaven friend who seems to field it ever "big" point game and it dies by turn three. :D

Just focus your shooting agaisnt the Abomb for a turn do a couple a wounds its only T5 and a +4 regen so enough S4,5,6 shooting will eventually do some wounds once half wounds finish off with something in your army that has high I (thus you they go first) and some ranks, or a monster/challenge lord/hero and you could finish it off. It has 5 wounds right?

No offense, but after playing Skaven regularly the only two things I can't stand/hate/worry about is the stormbanner (ooooohh sorry about these hurricane winds, they'll go away when my ratmen are across the board) :rolleyes: and the Doomwheel. Personally I find the Doomwheel to be equally as scary as the A-bomb but its underpriced henceforth giving the Doomwheel an edge over the A-bomb.

That being said it is almost unfair to jude the two because the A-bomb can single handedly kill a block of 20 or so infantry (excluding super elites) and is meant to be a C.C monster and just destroy things espically things with not many saves and low T. While the Doomwheel is meant more for support flanking, Warmachine hunting and most importantly lord/hero/mage hunting.

So while they both kill things and serve different purposes, if I could only choose one of the two I would pick the Doomwheel because its cheaper and more resilant (T6) Nonethelesss. . . OMFG DOOMWHEEL BROKEN, HPA BROKENNNNNN they arezzzz unstopppabbllleeeeeeeeee HPAAAAAAAAA SOSOSOSSSOOOOOOO undercozted. -K I' m done.

Roark
15-07-2010, 06:00
Ld8 panic test is not a solution.

If your plan to kill something has that low an odds then you arent a good general.

*patiently awaits an actual contribution from Soots which will no doubt teach everyone else how to be a better general*

soots
15-07-2010, 08:04
*patiently awaits an actual contribution from Soots which will no doubt teach everyone else how to be a better general*

Ive said it before :P

Theyre broken, and a few of the other things in a Skaven army are broken too.

Anyone playing against a Skaven opponent is literally at the mercy of the Skaven general. If Skaven wants to win, they will because they were given the better tools to win.

Im not a believer of the "better general will win the day" stuff, because i believe the game is very unbalanced. The only time the rule above applies is when both armies take in remotely even armies WITHOUT full intent to win. Hence why most of us prefer regular opponents and gaming groups - we know we can expect fun.

Every game i can CLEARLY see which are my best units, and every game im struggling to find the best way to GIMP myself without gimping myself too much. Thats what I hate about the game. You know how to win, but your challenging yourself not to.

FYI, ABOMB is a loss unit. IE. you have to contribute more points than its worth to kill it and you have to win elsewhere

KHolbourn
15-07-2010, 08:18
While I'd love to jump on the "shoot it" bandwagon remember that every Skaven player ever known to man always takes the Storm Banner to shut down your shooting for at least one turn and the Flaming Sword of Rhuin relies on actually rolling that spell and the Skaven player not dispelling it given the normally high-magic skaven no guarantee there...

(Of course its not just the HPA, its the whole skaven list! PCBs that are still horrible, the doomwheel of "no applicable rules" idiocy, the "unbreakable Furnace of I kill you", Warp ligntning cannon/doom mortars/WF throwers of "I kill your warmachines/ranked units" and the cheap mass slave units.

Slaves are good. For 2 points you essentially get a rerollable stubborn LD10 (if near a warlord/seer & BSB) empire trooper. Hitting things on 4+ and Str3. They die just as easily as the empire troops/ goblins/ HE troops and you can field them 7deep/5wide for a pitiful ~72 points)

I've found a simple truth. Play skaven = lose a game

mightyzombie
15-07-2010, 09:46
While I'd love to jump on the "shoot it" bandwagon remember that every Skaven player ever known to man always takes the Storm Banner to shut down your shooting for at least one turn and the Flaming Sword of Rhuin relies on actually rolling that spell and the Skaven player not dispelling it given the normally high-magic skaven no guarantee there...

(Of course its not just the HPA, its the whole skaven list! PCBs that are still horrible, the doomwheel of "no applicable rules" idiocy, the "unbreakable Furnace of I kill you", Warp ligntning cannon/doom mortars/WF throwers of "I kill your warmachines/ranked units" and the cheap mass slave units.

Slaves are good. For 2 points you essentially get a rerollable stubborn LD10 (if near a warlord/seer & BSB) empire trooper. Hitting things on 4+ and Str3. They die just as easily as the empire troops/ goblins/ HE troops and you can field them 7deep/5wide for a pitiful ~72 points)

I've found a simple truth. Play skaven = lose a game

My personal experience with slaves is slightly different. I've found that Cornered Rats usually kill more when the unit breaks than the actual unit did while it was alive. Granted 2/3 of what it kills is MINE, but at least they killed a bunch of stuff, so it's LIKE I'm winning, right?

...right...?

o_O

EDIT: Correct. Play Skaven = Lose a Game. Current Record vs my friends Lizardmen: W/D/L: 2/2/15, Eaither Skaven aren't as OP as some think, Lizardmen are MORE OP than some think or I'm just a crappy general. I'm willing to accept any combination of the 3 at this point :(

mr.kislev
15-07-2010, 09:48
iron guts (a very subpar unit) .

Guess you havnt read the 8th ed rules yet

Infurion
15-07-2010, 10:07
(Of course its not just the HPA, its the whole skaven list! PCBs that are still horrible, the doomwheel of "no applicable rules" idiocy, the "unbreakable Furnace of I kill you", Warp ligntning cannon/doom mortars/WF throwers of "I kill your warmachines/ranked units" and the cheap mass slave units.

Slaves are good. For 2 points you essentially get a rerollable stubborn LD10 (if near a warlord/seer & BSB) empire trooper. Hitting things on 4+ and Str3. They die just as easily as the empire troops/ goblins/ HE troops and you can field them 7deep/5wide for a pitiful ~72 points)

I've found a simple truth. Play skaven = lose a game
Need some cheese with that whine? You seriously don't know how to counter Skaven units at all? I agree that HPA is abit over the top, but to actually cry over the complete Skaven ArmyBook just makes you look silly.

Do you claim that a Skaven player can deploy all 100-200 models of "LD10 reroll stubborn" troops within 12" of both the BSB & General without seriously being outflanked? In fact there is hardly room to do that, especially now when units needs to be 1" apart..
And what hinders you to do the same with your footsloggers? They cost more, but may actually kill something compared to slaves.

Weapon teams, they have T3 and one frekkin' wound, just kill it ffs.

And are you playing without no form of warmachine? Heck, a well placed template weapon can take 10-15 rats of a unit and *poof*, not so many ranks anymore.

horror
15-07-2010, 10:10
Skaven: Half of Whineseer is starting an army of them because of their perceived power while the other half is perpetually complaining about their "brokenness". It's a hard time to be a Skaven player proper.

madden
15-07-2010, 10:16
One large blast can cover 40/50 troops depending on there base size(not cav or mi) flamer can cove 15/20+ ,so large units = large targets even with scatter you hit something without the hpa doomwheel skaven are quite weak bt still fun(I use neither) but it's the challenge I like.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-07-2010, 10:32
Just focus your shooting agaisnt the Abomb for a turn do a couple a wounds its only T5 and a +4 regen so enough S4,5,6 shooting will eventually do some wounds


No army in all of WH could pack enough shooting to accomplish such a feat. You will need 6's to hit and to wound and it has to fail regen in only two turns. That is a best possible case scenario. Then you don't even get to stand & shoot...

Infurion
15-07-2010, 11:16
No army in all of WH could pack enough shooting to accomplish such a feat. You will need 6's to hit and to wound and it has to fail regen in only two turns. That is a best possible case scenario. Then you don't even get to stand & shoot...
Brets do. A unit of peasant archers w/brazier. :P Or throw a fireball or 2.

Zinch
15-07-2010, 13:27
No army in all of WH could pack enough shooting to accomplish such a feat. You will need 6's to hit and to wound and it has to fail regen in only two turns. That is a best possible case scenario. Then you don't even get to stand & shoot...

Excuse me? Ok, the storm banner is a nuissance, but if you roll the now necessary 4+ (it has been errated to afect magic missiles... damn you GW!), a single shot of a dwarf cannon can kill it with no regeneration available.

And it's worth half the points! Maybe GW playtested only against Dwarfs... ;)

Lord Solar Plexus
15-07-2010, 13:37
Brets do. A unit of peasant archers w/brazier. :P Or throw a fireball or 2.

That only removes Regen. You still have to hit and wound. Good luck taking it down in the two turns it takes the Abom to reach your lines.



Excuse me? Ok, the storm banner is a nuissance, but if you roll the now necessary 4+ (it has been errated to afect magic missiles... damn you GW!), a single shot of a dwarf cannon can kill it with no regeneration available.


First of all, it has not been errata'ed to affect magic missiles. It never affected them before. It has been changed so that magical ranged attacks aren't exempt anymore.

Secondly, you're right - that cannon *could* kill it in one turn. This notwithstanding, that would still be quite a lucky shot and it's hardly a useful advice for anyone else.

Infurion
15-07-2010, 13:44
That only removes Regen. You still have to hit and wound. Good luck taking it down in the two turns it takes the Abom to reach your lines.

Secondly, you're right - that cannon *could* kill it in one turn. This notwithstanding, that would still be quite a lucky shot and it's hardly a useful advice for anyone else.

True. But say 20 archers/shots is not that costy, and if you even put one wound on it with fire, it may not come back if it dies. Also, if you then fire a cannon/trebuchet ect on it after that one wound, it has no save at all.

Tbh, i wouldn't concider that a guaranteed kill in the first round for a 235p unit is right either? That should indeed be a lucky shot.

Stumpy
15-07-2010, 13:45
HPAs are utterly broken and should sit around the 400 point area. As long as your opponent realised this, you're fine as he should sympathise with your efforts to bring it down.
For the record I hate the skaven army book, but that's because it seems to be fan written with huge numbers of unnecessary special rules and exceptions.

Skyros
15-07-2010, 13:46
The 8th ed Skaven FAQ was 7 pages. Most other books seemed to get 2-3. :)

Rogzor87
15-07-2010, 14:10
QQ more please.

How about stop crying and actually come up with ways to defeat the HPA or Skaven army in general. Everything they have is killable. Not a single thing takes an absurd amount to kill and if you think that then your army list sucks or your just playing your army wrong.

Even Goblins can shoot it down fairly easily before it makes it to them. 40 shots /w poison do an average of 3 wounds. Get the flaming banner on them then its 6 wounds instead and thats an insta dead HPA and guess what it is only 120pnts for that O.o.

So stop crying about things being broken or OP and just find a solution to stop/kill it.

RMacDeezy
15-07-2010, 14:33
when facing the HPA you just have to accept the fact that you're going to spend a lot of points to bring it down. sure, 40 cheap archers could kill it but tbh i've never seen an army with a unit like that. there really is no efficient way to kill it, you just have to deal with it however you can and hope the rest of your army really shines while you have 500-1000 pts of stuff killing a 235 pt model. HPAs are the only thing that make me consider the blasphemy of fielding flamers with my slaanesh daemons (sob)

Rogzor87
15-07-2010, 15:07
I was just using the goblins as an example honestly. Every army has something to kill the HPA and you don't have to tailor to do so. Make a well rounded list and it will be killable. Either in shooting/melee/magic or even just scaring it off the board with panic.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-07-2010, 15:12
True. But say 20 archers/shots is not that costy, and if you even put one wound on it with fire, it may not come back if it dies. Also, if you then fire a cannon/trebuchet ect on it after that one wound, it has no save at all.


I agree with you that this can work. I'm just saying that it sounds like an act born of desperation when it has been suggested as an easy solution ("just throw enough shots at it and it goes away"). What BS do those Archers have? With BS 3 and the Stormbanner, you're looking at 3 hits and .5 wounds...Brets don't have cannon I gather and a Trebuchet needs to hit and wound and roll a high number of wounds too. It's just not likely to die.

Trains_Get_Robbed
15-07-2010, 17:08
"No army in all of WH could pack enough shooting to accomplish such a feat. You will need 6's to hit and to wound and it has to fail regen in only two turns. That is a best possible case scenario. Then you don't even get to stand & shoot... "

Uhhhh last I checked my H.E didn't have Warmachines worth s*it and have all their weapons based on BS. If I can do it once to twice per week anyone can do it (well except for Beastmen and Vampire Counts >:D).

This is just an average amount shooting too 12 archers shots after a turn 12 archers for one turn they will be at 6's assuming long range and Storm banner, as well as my Mage with Reaver Bow he will also be on 6's (he is in the unit).

Then I have two RBTa, so thats 12 more shots at 5's or 6's depending on range.

Turn One: I generate 12 S3 shots, 12 S4 shots, and 3 S5 shots. Two hits from the S3, four hits from the S4 (assuming short range of 24') and 50%chance of one hitting with the S5 bow.

So of those hits -we'll say hypothetically the S5 shots didn't wound, and since the S5 bow didn't wound we'll hypothetically say we did two wounds with the six shots that did. (mainly because of 1/3 chance to wound with S4 and 1/6 equates 1 and 2/3 wounds.)

Turn One shooting thus does two wounds with a +4 regen, the A-bomb takes one wound.

Turn two: Storm banner is gone and now the A-bomb is close range! *Ohhhh scary ;)* So now all my shots need threes to hit so 8 S3 8 S4 and 2 S5 hit, and after all the hits we'll do 4 2/3 wounds, of which 2 to 2 1/2 will be regened.

Thusly, when it hits my lines I'll have it down to 2 or 1 wound. And if I have been properly planning I will also have something of decent I to have accepting the charge so that'll go first and so any odd number of attacks to it consequently finishing off the ohhhhh soooo scccarrrryyyy A-bomb!!!

Note that this was done without flamming attacks and without haveing any LSG in my H.E force which are decent enough to take a block of now) and without casting Curse of Arrow Attraction (rerolls to hit -it is only H.E specific spell and that is why I didn't include it).

Any questions? LordSolarPlexus?

Rogzor87
15-07-2010, 21:32
No army in all of WH could pack enough shooting to accomplish such a feat. You will need 6's to hit and to wound and it has to fail regen in only two turns. That is a best possible case scenario. Then you don't even get to stand & shoot...

Alot of armies can push out enough fire to drop the thing in 1 turn. You also have to realize the HPA has random movements. It can go 3" or 18"... 11" on average. Without my army moving at all that would take 3 turns for the HPA to get to me in combat.

But as I said. Just learn to play your army. There is something in every book not to mention the new 8th edition magic items to make the HPA easily kill able now and you don't really even have to tailor for it since it will benefit you against almost all other armies.

Djekar
15-07-2010, 21:43
FYI, ABOMB is a loss unit. IE. you have to contribute more points than its worth to kill it and you have to win elsewhere.

Not to get this started again, but the idea that something "makes its points back" is a ridiculous argument. If that were the case I would never, under any circumstances take certain units. Fanatics are a great example. Fanatics in general are horrible and though at least with the 1.1 errata they no longer cause panic, they rarely get a chance to do 25pts of damage each. What they are good for is partially dictating enemy moves. OH NOES, THEY DIDN'T KILL ANYTHING THOUGH!!1! That's not their purpose (at least not when I use them*).

What I'm getting at is that if your entire army "made it's points back" you would have completely tabled your opponent without any losses and lets face it - this is 8th edition. Crazy things will happen, accidents will occur, blocks will die because of the (newly injected) randomness, who can expect that even with excellent generalship that such a thing would happen?

* The only other way I use fanatics is by throwing them through my line (their bunker parent units hang out behind the main line) so that charging units land on them and take 2d6 hits. Consequently, very fun for trying to kill HPAs.

Idle Scholar
15-07-2010, 22:07
What I dislike about the A-bomb is twofold:

1) 360 charging makes it point and click. No need to think where it will be in two turns like most other units.

2) It beats the majority of ranked units in the game on the charge.

I mean yes it can be shot to bits (unless you're VC, WoC or Beasts) but that shouldn't have to be the answer. Nor should having to hit it with a tooled out combat character. Hopefully step-up will make it a bit more reasonable but as a Skaven player what I want is a decent support monster that I can use with my CR blocks to win a few combats. Not something that's either killed by a cannon ball on turn one or eats the enemy army whilst the rest of the Skaven look on and cheer.

To be fair I may just be raging against the 8-14 target demographic of WH but hey, it's nice to vent.

fubukii
16-07-2010, 00:44
step up will be huge in taking it down any troop will wound it on 6s ( not great)

str 4 troops wound it on 5s ( not bad
str 5 troops (maybe buffed or with gw etc) wound on 4s.

If its in the front rank you get alot of attacks on it. (unless it dual charged with a block of some sort)

Flash Felix
16-07-2010, 02:44
It may have been mentioned already, but the big problem with the Abomination (and the Furnace, Doomwheel and Bell) is that the best solution in most cases is to shoot them. Combat with them is normally very expensive and deadly, and not guaranteed to win. Magic is of course unreliable, and not everyone (like my Dwarves) can take it.

So shooting it is then for most of us.....

...enter the Storm Banner and Howling Warpgale, which have a truly excellent synergy with the Skaven heavy-hitters. If all my Dwarves can do is shoot it, because the damn thing eats Hammerers and Longbeards for light snacks, then that's what I'll do. Provided I roll a 4+ on my 150 point war machines that is, or shoot at -1/-2 for an army with BS3. Oh, and to make it better, Gutter Runners coming on from your table edge can easily kill those war machines you so desperately need.

The Abomination is aptly named, and by itself is over the top; but with the other tools in the Skaven book, it is well overpowered. There is an answer to it, but that answer has been negated by the Skaven book itself. The Banner might only last 1 turn of shooting, and Warpgale can be dispelled, but 1-2 turns is all that's needed before these damn things are on you.

I don't have an answer, rather than grit your teeth and bear it. Deploy back on the table edge to maximise shooting time, deploy guards to beat off the Gutter Runners, and hope your shooting gets through the Storm Banner and Warpgale. On the plus side, if you do manage to shoot the damn things, or at least render them killable in a single round, you have a good shot of beating the Clanrat mage bunkers (that's all they seem to be at the moment....). Just watch out for the Plague Censor Bearers; they haven't been nerfed as much as you might think.....

fubukii
16-07-2010, 07:35
best way to kill a abom now is combat step up attack works wonders especially with troops armed with halbreds or great weapons

Flash Felix
16-07-2010, 10:04
best way to kill a abom now is combat step up attack works wonders especially with troops armed with halbreds or great weapons

If they can charge, and therefore avoid the d6 S6 impact hits.

If they have better than I4, so they can hopefully kill it before it strikes.

Otherwise they'll be wearing the a whole lot of S6 hate; around 6-12 hits depending on the attack used. They might only have to face the Feed result, which is good for the rank and file, but great at killing characters.

My Longbeards will have 11 attacks, getting 7.33 hits, which result in 4.8 wounds, but the Abombination gets it's Regen save, so likely it'll be 2-3 wounds. So those Longbeards, with their S6 great weapons, will have to fight for two rounds in order to kill it reliably. Meanwhile, Mr Abomination has quite literally killed over half the unit, and should win combat easily in both rounds.

Fighting it in close combat is a really bad idea. Maybe a Bloodthirster or a tooled up combat lord could do it. I really don't think anything else has much of a chance.

Symrivven
16-07-2010, 12:05
If they can charge, and therefore avoid the d6 S6 impact hits.

If they have better than I4, so they can hopefully kill it before it strikes.

Otherwise they'll be wearing the a whole lot of S6 hate; around 6-12 hits depending on the attack used. They might only have to face the Feed result, which is good for the rank and file, but great at killing characters.

My Longbeards will have 11 attacks, getting 7.33 hits, which result in 4.8 wounds, but the Abombination gets it's Regen save, so likely it'll be 2-3 wounds. So those Longbeards, with their S6 great weapons, will have to fight for two rounds in order to kill it reliably. Meanwhile, Mr Abomination has quite literally killed over half the unit, and should win combat easily in both rounds.

Fighting it in close combat is a really bad idea. Maybe a Bloodthirster or a tooled up combat lord could do it. I really don't think anything else has much of a chance.

With dwarves, can't you just shoot it, you even have the fire rune.
And don't forget the fire banner, For an al round army it wouldn't hurt to have one around. Not just for the HPA, but also the (maybe more) dreaded hydra, the vargulf, nurgle daemons, gravguard with regen etc etc. In short taking some anti regeneration tool with you isn't that "specially tooled versus 1 unit" any more.

I don't think you have to be able to take all the wound from the HPA in one round of HTH. most armies can shoot/magic it to soften it up a bit and then send in some heavy hitters,or poisoned hitters, a monster hunter character or anything with flaming attacks to finish the job.

Even armies that can't (really) shoot (VC, WOC beastmen) can get rid of it either by softening it up with magic, or just drive something at it that hits harder.

cornonthecob
16-07-2010, 12:29
Thoughts on units that could kill the HPA

Black coach - Fully tooled up ( not too hard now that we can get up to twelve dice every magic phase) it will eat it alive. Killing blow , etheral , flaming attacks etc.

Blood statuette of spite with bane head - You can regenerate , but it's going to do damage.

Skink blowpipes - mass blowpipe attack will be annoying

Transformation spell - Turn into a emperor dragon and fry it

Steam tank

fubukii
16-07-2010, 12:52
If they can charge, and therefore avoid the d6 S6 impact hits.

If they have better than I4, so they can hopefully kill it before it strikes.

Otherwise they'll be wearing the a whole lot of S6 hate; around 6-12 hits depending on the attack used. They might only have to face the Feed result, which is good for the rank and file, but great at killing characters.

My Longbeards will have 11 attacks, getting 7.33 hits, which result in 4.8 wounds, but the Abombination gets it's Regen save, so likely it'll be 2-3 wounds. So those Longbeards, with their S6 great weapons, will have to fight for two rounds in order to kill it reliably. Meanwhile, Mr Abomination has quite literally killed over half the unit, and should win combat easily in both rounds.

Fighting it in close combat is a really bad idea. Maybe a Bloodthirster or a tooled up combat lord could do it. I really don't think anything else has much of a chance.

It would kill some dwarves bult in the end you would hold due to steadfast and eat it next turn. In addition as dwarves you actually charge the same distance as the thing on average so you may not get impact hit against at all. 2 rounds of combat dos not absurd to kill off a HPA, i mean what do you want for it to die the instant you attack back ?

Skyros
18-07-2010, 00:46
After the changes to the Hydra breath weapon, the HPA is by far the most egregiously overpowered monster in WFB.

It completely breaks the paradigm of being able to tarpit big monsters (if your elite units can't beat it in combat, which is the case for several armies). It gets an absurd amount of attacks - on a 3 - 6 it gets 3D6 S6 attacks. (roughly). This will clobber any tarpit unit in short order. No other monster can put out such a huge amount of damage turn after turn on tarpit units.

However, since the attacks are S6, you can't even tarpit the hellpit with heavily armored units.

It can move far and fast and has a 360 degree charge arc, with a 4+ regen save. Even if you kill it it can come back from the dead.

And to top it all off, if you DO manage to beat it via static combat res, it is stubborn!

Most armies have to deal with it via shooting, but guess what? Enter the stormbanner. And a skaven player can take two of these and a doomwheel in 2500 points.

I think the hellpit is pretty ferociously undercosted.

Sygerrik
18-07-2010, 04:51
As we watch the metagame of 8th evolve, we also watch the metagame of insult-trading (often subtle) between players evolve alongside it. The current winning strategy seems to be the implication that Warhammer 8th is "for kiddies" and you yourself only play out of wistful nostalgia for the days when men stroked their beards and smoked pipes while playing warhammer on a billiards table in a gentlemen's club.

thechosenone
18-07-2010, 05:00
Again, why is it so bad for this unit to be so goof at killing stuff? Nothing else in the skaven army causes wounds! Not reliably anyway. Not clan rats, not storm vermin, not tooled up characters. So the Abomb and Rogers kick a little butt, why can't they have one affordable combat beast?

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 05:31
Again, why is it so bad for this unit to be so goof at killing stuff? Nothing else in the skaven army causes wounds! Not reliably anyway. Not clan rats, not storm vermin, not tooled up characters. So the Abomb and Rogers kick a little butt, why can't they have one affordable combat beast?

Affordable? Affordable?! That thing is the most undercosted unit in Fantasy by a mile! It's not even the cost of the thing that matters the most, or how killy it is. It's that it breaks the core rules of Fantasy. It can charge in any direction. You can't block it. You can't redirect it. You can't tarpit it. You can't kill it without gearing a quarter or more of your army to do so.

Not only that but your sense of logic is flawed. Why not give Steam Tanks a 4+ Ward Save and complete immunity to magic again? Empire don't have any other killy or tough things, so surely it's fair that they get an "affordable" tough unit.

:rolleyes:

Thruster
18-07-2010, 05:40
While you're at it, can you give Giant in O&G a Regen, T10, and "It's still ALIVE!!" rule? :)

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 05:46
While you're at it, can you give Giant in O&G a Regen, T10, and "It's still ALIVE!!" rule? :)

This is precisely it. Look at other monsters (although I'd say the Gant and Shaggoth are a tad overpriced) and compare them to the Hell Pit Abomination.

Stumpy
18-07-2010, 05:53
Its the most powerful model in the game: that's fine as something has to be. Seems to me it should an appropriate cost then. Something in the region of 400-450 points.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 06:07
Its the most powerful model in the game: that's fine as something has to be. Seems to me it should an appropriate cost then. Something in the region of 400-450 points.

I wouldn't mind half as much if it was only about 30 points more and couldn't do 360 degree charges.

thechosenone
18-07-2010, 06:12
maybe you are not looking at the Abomb in the context of the army its for. I can't speak about the giant in the orc book, its an older book and has its own issues but lets look at the steam tank and the stuff you haphazardly threw out there to back up your argument.

In an army with so many templates a vehicle for another template weapon doesn't require a ward save. See, the tank is not covering any weaknesses in the army, its just a neat additional unit that is super durable and killy. So it costs a lot because its another slot that carries with it the same advantages as the rest of the army. Tight on cannons, take a steam tank, its another cannon. So it costs more because its another way to get at your army's advantage.

The Abomb is NOT the steam tank. You are not accessing another of your army's strengths, you are in fact tapping into the one killy unit the skaven have. See its cheap (Ish. Its still 250 points) because its not an exploit to get at more of your advantage, its a way to try and mitigate some of your weakness. Plus its more exciting than charging a huge block unit into something and watching your troops die while hoping for static combat res win. You can't spam the killing power of the Abomb like you can template fire and cannons from the empire.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 06:21
maybe you are not looking at the Abomb in the context of the army its for. I can't speak about the giant in the orc book, its an older book and has its own issues but lets look at the steam tank and the stuff you haphazardly threw out there to back up your argument.

In an army with so many templates a vehicle for another template weapon doesn't require a ward save. See, the tank is not covering any weaknesses in the army, its just a neat additional unit that is super durable and killy. So it costs a lot because its another slot that carries with it the same advantages as the rest of the army. Tight on cannons, take a steam tank, its another cannon. So it costs more because its another way to get at your army's advantage.

The Abomb is NOT the steam tank. You are not accessing another of your army's strengths, you are in fact tapping into the one killy unit the skaven have. See its cheap (Ish. Its still 250 points) because its not an exploit to get at more of your advantage, its a way to try and mitigate some of your weakness. Plus its more exciting than charging a huge block unit into something and watching your troops die while hoping for static combat res win. You can't spam the killing power of the Abomb like you can template fire and cannons from the empire.

I don't want to use the flawed saying "majority wins" but you seem to be in the minority that thinks this. The Skaven don't need the HPA to win and my friend has proven this.

Not only that but I was being sarcastic with my comments on the Steam Tank. Of course it doesn't need those things. I was just pointing out how unbalanced - in both points cost and the complete lack of restrictions - the HPA is. Nothing else in the game has the same level of unrestricted mobility, nor is anything 250 points in any other army as killy, lt alone that durable.

It's a 250 point Monster that is obviously worth over 300 points. No army but Dwarfs and possibly Empire have a good counter to it. If, for every army, you can find something under 500 points that can reliably take out the Hell Pit Abomination without lucky rolls, even if in a couple of turns, THEN I'll concede your point.

Stumpy
18-07-2010, 06:30
Except things with flaming attacks, as most armies don't have them readily available.

Sygerrik
18-07-2010, 06:44
Except things with flaming attacks, as most armies don't have them readily available.

Except for the BRB item that gives an entire unit flaming attacks for all of their attacks, for 10 points.

You know, besides that.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 06:45
Except things with flaming attacks, as most armies don't have them readily available.

Yeah, exactly. Sure, you can take that Banner that gives Flaming attacks but you need a killy unit that can strike before the HPA, and then you have the problem if getting into combat with it.

Agoz
18-07-2010, 06:58
The one problem my hellpit seems to have in battle is that it is nearly impossible to support, its forced to move it's full 3d6 inches every turn, which means it will often be ranging far ahead of the main skaven army, and with a decent combat unit up against it with a decent save, I've had it die in the first round of combat in about half the games I've used it.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 07:03
The one problem my hellpit seems to have in battle is that it is nearly impossible to support, its forced to move it's full 3d6 inches every turn, which means it will often be ranging far ahead of the main skaven army, and with a decent combat unit up against it with a decent save, I've had it die in the first round of combat in about half the games I've used it.

What combat unit could possibly do that? :eyebrows:

Rogzor87
18-07-2010, 07:07
There is a metric ton of stuff in this game that can kill the Hellpit in 1turn.

Now learn your own army and find something useful instead of crying about it on a forum all day. Not to mention you don't even have to specifically tailor to just that 1 monster as well.

Agoz
18-07-2010, 07:11
What combat unit could possibly do that? :eyebrows:

I've had it killed twice by a small unit of swordmasters, run down by chaos knights, and killed by blackguard, oh, and I guess its been run down by a graveguard bunker too, all because I couldn't support it, or because it rolled feed, or rolled a little bellow average.

The hellpit either does really well for me, or it dies immediately, either way, I seem to lose with my skaven for the most part, I'm certainly not doing any better than I was doing with the last edition book.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 07:13
There is a metric ton of stuff in this game that can kill the Hellpit in 1turn.
Oh, really now? :eyebrows:



Now learn your own army and find something useful instead of crying about it on a forum all day. Not to mention you don't even have to specifically tailor to just that 1 monster as well.
Okay, what would you suggest to add to an all-comers army to deal with HPAs on a regular basis? No tailoring.

I think you're just telling me not to whine when you don't even have any answers. I will continue to preach about how broken it is until there is at least a solution for half the armies out there :p



I've had it killed twice by a small unit of swordmasters, run down by chaos knights, and killed by blackguard, oh, and I guess its been run down by a graveguard bunker too, all because I couldn't support it, or because it rolled feed, or rolled a little bellow average.
Ohh, you mean bad luck.

Rogzor87
18-07-2010, 07:24
Flaming attacks, Work against ALOT of units. Taking flaming attacks isn't tailoring. Forcing it to panic isn't tailoring. Shooting it isn't tailoring, Meleeing it down isn't tailoring. Casting spells into its face isn't tailoring.

Oh look I gave plenty of examples. Now look in your book and find a solution and stop crying about it.

I've killed the HPA with Goblins with 1 round of shooting. Killed it Flamers of Tzeentch in 1 round, Killed it in Melee with Warriors(WoC), Killed it in melee /w Kholek(WoC), Made it useless with a MoS Sorcerer, Scared it off the Board.

Its not hard honestly. Every army has an Answer. Maybe if you left this Forum thread you can find one in your army book.

Agoz
18-07-2010, 07:28
bad luck does play a part in it I suppose, but you have to realize that the hellpit is entirely luck based, which makes it un-reliable, sure, it could get 2d6 hits, or it could get 4. when it gets 4, you lose. and stubborn 8 is not going to keep it around for long, unless its sitting right next to your bsb, which is doubtful, considering (at least my army) is defensive, and doesn't move much, so generally the hellpit is far away from the general or bsb.

But even when it does work, what do you get? 3d6 attacks, thats on average about 11 attacks, 4's to hit, so around 5.5 hits, so around 4.5 wounds. granted, with the advent of thunderstomp, that number increases, but then again, against any decent sized unit, its going to get a ton of attacks back into it's toughness 5 flesh, and contrary to popular belief, regeneration will not save all wounds.

And about impact hits in 8th edition, I doubt you'll get them, practically everything else in the game is just as fast, and they aren't forced to move their full move towards the enemy every turn, so they can make sure you won't get the charge, you don't have the same luxury with a hellpit, I usually end up around 6" away from the enemy, giving them a nice clean charge.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 07:41
Flaming attacks, Work against ALOT of units. Taking flaming attacks isn't tailoring. Forcing it to panic isn't tailoring. Shooting it isn't tailoring, Meleeing it down isn't tailoring. Casting spells into its face isn't tailoring.
No s***, Sherlock. The thing is, what are you going to put Flaming Attacks on? Grave Guard? Black Guard? Warriors of Chaos? Greatswords?

The ones I listed above either cost FAR more points than the HPA unless they're the minimum unit size or are simply too fragile to do the job.

You need cavalry to deliver the Flaming Banner to the HPA reliably, and even then it's not reliable. The HPA will most likely charge the cavalry first and even if it doesn't, very few things that can deal with it have low Initiative, unless you want to send big units of Chaos or Blood Knights at it.

Not only that, but all the units that can take the Banner can take other ones which are FAR MORE USEFUL against FAR MORE FOES. You don't take the Flaming Attacks one over others unless you want to tailor against things like HPAs or possibly scare cavalry.



Oh look I gave plenty of examples. Now look in your book and find a solution and stop crying about it.
No you didn't. That's an outright lie, and a pathetic one at that. Your lack of manners and insulting demenor is also quite irritating.


I've killed the HPA with Goblins with 1 round of shooting. Killed it Flamers of Tzeentch in 1 round, Killed it in Melee with Warriors(WoC), Killed it in melee /w Kholek(WoC), Made it useless with a MoS Sorcerer, Scared it off the Board.
Hahaha, these are priceless.

The Goblins rely on so much luck that having a bucket of horseshoes and a rabbit foot in all your pockets won't help you.

Flamers of Tzeentch are underpriced too! Wow, these go hand in hand. They're also -gasp- only available to Daemons.

You killed it in melee with Warriors? Unless it was a Warrior Horde, a max of 6 would be attacking. Do you know what that's called? It's this thing called luck.

Kholek, eh? He's, what, 680 points right? Yeah, you can almost get 3 HPAs for him...

Oh, great. You scared it off the board. I actually like this one. It's one of the few that could work a lot of the time.



Its not hard honestly. Every army has an Answer. Maybe if you left this Forum thread you can find one in your army book.
I never said they don't. What I did say was

You can't kill it without gearing a quarter or more of your army to do so.
which is true, except for Dwarfs or lucky Cannon rolls with Empire.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 07:53
bad luck does play a part in it I suppose, but you have to realize that the hellpit is entirely luck based, which makes it un-reliable, sure, it could get 2d6 hits, or it could get 4. when it gets 4, you lose. and stubborn 8 is not going to keep it around for long, unless its sitting right next to your bsb, which is doubtful, considering (at least my army) is defensive, and doesn't move much, so generally the hellpit is far away from the general or bsb.
It's kinda contradicting myself depending on how you look at it, but everything in Warhammer is luck based. You can, however, find out roughly how good something is by math-hammering. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but 80% of the time it's the HPA that gets the charge. In 8th it can get a potential 5D6 attacks (3D6+Impact Hits+Thunderstomp) and even if it rolls Feed, it will still get Thunderstomp and (if it charged) Impact Hits.

Ahh well, everyone else is popping their anecdotal evidence out so I might as well.
Stubborn Ld8 but not near the BSB? You know, the truth is that I've never won against a Hell Pit Abomination in combat. Maybe it was bad luck, maybe they weren't the right units, or maybe I'm just a crappy general.



But even when it does work, what do you get? 3d6 attacks, thats on average about 11 attacks, 4's to hit, so around 5.5 hits, so around 4.5 wounds. granted, with the advent of thunderstomp, that number increases, but then again, against any decent sized unit, its going to get a ton of attacks back into it's toughness 5 flesh, and contrary to popular belief, regeneration will not save all wounds.
A horde of Warriors of Chaos with 2 hand weapons (huge points sink, mind you) causes 1.5 wounds after Regeneration to the HPA if 3 are in B2B. With great weapons, they cause just under 3 wounds after Regeneration if 3 are in B2B. This is a horde. Of Chaos Warriors. With Great Weapons. It's cost is phenomenal.



And about impact hits in 8th edition, I doubt you'll get them, practically everything else in the game is just as fast, and they aren't forced to move their full move towards the enemy every turn, so they can make sure you won't get the charge, you don't have the same luxury with a hellpit, I usually end up around 6" away from the enemy, giving them a nice clean charge.
It gets the same amount of attacks as it did in 7th even if it doesn't charge.


EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

Agoz
18-07-2010, 08:05
I'm not saying the hellpit isn't overpowered, it is, but I am saying that it is not a perfect storm, its luck based, maybe you've had bad luck against it, I've had bad luck playing with it personally, what does that mean? It means its unreliable, it either crushes everything, or it dies, and the opposing player gloats about it.

Edit: oh, and by the way, I play a moulder themed list, which means the rest of my army does precisely nothing ever ;)

Rogzor87
18-07-2010, 08:05
I never said anything about that Banner. I said Flaming attacks... Spells, Shooting attacks, The banner if you so wish, even some characters and units get items that give them flaming attacks O.o!!!!!!!!!!

I know those Low I Warriors(WoC), Chosen and Chaos Knights. Apparently I 5/6 is Low now. Never new that.

Flaming things affect beast, things with Regen, Tomb Kings. Which happen to be in ALOT of armies. So its not tailoring whatsoever.

I don't see how I didn't give a lot of examples. I said shoot it, Cast spells at it, Melee it, Panic it away. Pretty much every source to possibly kill it. I even gave examples of what I have done to kill it or get rid of it.

No. Its not Luck. Its me knowing my armies and my opponents. Knowing what to do and when to do it is not luck at all.

"I think you're just telling me not to whine when you don't even have any answers. I will continue to preach about how broken it is until there is at least a solution for half the armies out there"

You also said what I just posted in Quotations. Every army has a Solution. So stop preaching. Since you clearly said you would.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 08:10
I'm not saying the hellpit isn't overpowered, it is, but I am saying that it is not a perfect storm, its luck based, maybe you've had bad luck against it, I've had bad luck playing with it personally, what does that mean? It means its unreliable, it either crushes everything, or it dies, and the opposing player gloats about it.

Again, everything in Warhammer is luck based. The HPA may be more so than other stuff, but nothing in Fantasy isn't luck based.

It's main problem is the fact that there's no surefire way to deal with it. It would be more manageable without the 360 degree charge by a mile.

soots
18-07-2010, 08:11
I think this is a perfect opportunity for GW to errata Abomb to Regen (6+), and give it WS3 with no autohit skills. It still would be better than a TK Bone Giant.

Agoz
18-07-2010, 08:18
Its already weaponskill 3, and I'm not so sure a bone giant is a good reference point for a new army book monster.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 08:25
I never said anything about that Banner. I said Flaming attacks... Spells, Shooting attacks, The banner if you so wish, even some characters and units get items that give them flaming attacks O.o!!!!!!!!!!
Okay, help me with that. What would you do with Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos or Ogre Kingdoms. I'd be delighted to know.

Warriors can get lots of Flaming Magic, but that's about it.

Vampire Counts get can the Balefire Lance or their own Flaming Banner, but what, are you going to gear a Vampire up to kill a Hell Pit Abomination?

Cannot think of what to use with Ogres.



I know those Low I Warriors(WoC), Chosen and Chaos Knights. Apparently I 5/6 is Low now. Never new that.
Hey, dude. I have a piece of advice for you.

Stop taking what I say out of context.



Flaming things affect beast, things with Regen, Tomb Kings. Which happen to be in ALOT of armies. So its not tailoring whatsoever.
That's not the point. The point is that there are FAR more useful Banners.



I don't see how I didn't give a lot of examples. I said shoot it, Cast spells at it, Melee it, Panic it away. Pretty much every source to possibly kill it. I even gave examples of what I have done to kill it or get rid of it.
Oh, that's helpful.

Topic starter: Hey guys, have any advice on how to beat Warriors of Chaos with High Elves?
You: Shoot them, cast spells at them, get into combat with them and Panic them.
Topic starter: :eyebrows:



No. Its not Luck. Its me knowing my armies and my opponents. Knowing what to do and when to do it is not luck at all.
Run the numbers of what you stated. It WAS luck, unless you also had uber combat characters to help them.



"I think you're just telling me not to whine when you don't even have any answers. I will continue to preach about how broken it is until there is at least a solution for half the armies out there"
:rolleyes:

Okay, let me amend my statement.

I will continue to preach about how broken it is until there is at least an AFFORDABLE solution for half the armies out there.



You also said what I just posted in Quotations. Every army has a Solution. So stop preaching. Since you clearly said you would.
See above for what I intended to say.


EDIT:
Its already weaponskill 3, and I'm not so sure a bone giant is a good reference point for a new army book monster.
Agreed, hahaha.

cornonthecob
18-07-2010, 10:16
Cannot think of what to use with Ogres.



Thundermace , you can use it like a stone thrower , slam it into it and then do d6 wounds , then stomp , also impact hits.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 10:29
Thundermace , you can use it like a stone thrower , slam it into it and then do d6 wounds , then stomp , also impact hits.

Don't you need to roll to hit, though?

EDIT: I just realized what I failed to take into account.

The Storm Banner.

cornonthecob
18-07-2010, 10:36
I think you do.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 10:44
I think you do.

Ahh...

A 1/3rd of a chance of completely failing to do anything doesn't seem too good, especially since that Tyrant is most likely your General and costs a fair bit more than the HPA usually :(

Flash Felix
18-07-2010, 11:38
The Abomb is NOT the steam tank. You are not accessing another of your army's strengths, you are in fact tapping into the one killy unit the skaven have.

I think that Plague Censor Bearers, Plague Furnaces, 8th Ed Rat Ogres and the Doomwheel might also be good at killing things in combat. And the Skaven magic laws and shooting are bloody lethal too; I've lost 2 ranks of Dwarves to things like Scorch or the Warp Lightning Cannon.

Anyone defending the HPA has to also defend the fact that it combines extremely well with everything else in the army. Like blocks of slaves and giant rats to lock enemies in combat for a charge, or to guard its flank. Like the bloody Storm Banner to guarantee at least 1 vital turn of neutered shooting, the only thing I have to safely kill it. My Dwarves might have flaming war machines, but they now only work half the time thanks to the new Skaven FAQ. And they're very vulnerable to those gutter runners with the Poisoned slings appearing behind them.

The HPA by itself is broken. When you add in the way it is made even stronger by the rest of the Skaven army book, it's pretty sickening when one's placed on the table opposite you.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 11:52
I think that Plague Censor Bearers, Plague Furnaces, 8th Ed Rat Ogres and the Doomwheel might also be good at killing things in combat. And the Skaven magic laws and shooting are bloody lethal too; I've lost 2 ranks of Dwarves to things like Scorch or the Warp Lightning Cannon.

Anyone defending the HPA has to also defend the fact that it combines extremely well with everything else in the army. Like blocks of slaves and giant rats to lock enemies in combat for a charge, or to guard its flank. Like the bloody Storm Banner to guarantee at least 1 vital turn of neutered shooting, the only thing I have to safely kill it. My Dwarves might have flaming war machines, but they now only work half the time thanks to the new Skaven FAQ. And they're very vulnerable to those gutter runners with the Poisoned slings appearing behind them.

The HPA by itself is broken. When you add in the way it is made even stronger by the rest of the Skaven army book, it's pretty sickening when one's placed on the table opposite you.
Wow. You have the exact same kind of thinking as me.

iaguz
18-07-2010, 13:09
The main problem is assuming that Doomwheels and PCB's are great in combat. PCB's poor initiative means you have to take a lot of them, not the small 6-8 hand grenades they used to be, and that is bad because the second you put PCB's into a list, 9/10 they will die and give the opponent vp's (still a really powerful unit back in 7th, dont' get me wrong!). The Doomwheel is great for picking off small things but the main use of it in 7th was to take away flanks, something this doomwheel cannot do. The extra wounds are lovely I spose, but it is by no means a dedicated hammer unit.

The furnace is still decent. I liked it when I could put my BSB in there.

Rest of the post makes sense though. Almost makes me want to slap two together and start messing people up.

Stumpy
18-07-2010, 13:45
Doomwheels and PCBs *are* great in combat, you've just gotta do the same as everyone else and throw in a ranked unit (rare for skaven, I know) at the same time.

Idle Scholar
18-07-2010, 13:58
Doomwheels and PCBs *are* great in combat, you've just gotta do the same as everyone else and throw in a ranked unit (rare for skaven, I know) at the same time.

PCB's are OK in combat, but you have to get them in on the flank and they are incredibly vulnerable right now. Any T4 and I4 troops will butcher them with relative ease before they can really do anything.

A lot of the time skaven units will give away more combat res than they will generate in 8th so you can kind of see why they threw in something like the A-bomb. not that I don't think it's an overpowered monstrosity.

I liked the definition of overpowered that someone wrote for the steamtank in another thread.

(to paraphrase) "Some opponents will smirk and remove it with little effort while for others it will eat their entire armies."

I think that sums up the A-bomb nicely.

Stumpy
18-07-2010, 14:14
I would just go with units of 7 PCBs to charge along with a unit of clanrats/slaves. Take say 3 wounds on the PCBs, let the survivors cause their usual 9 wounds and win by lots.
This is assuming they're fighting stuff with I4+, which is elves, chaos warriors and other skaven.
I just noticed you said they're 'ok' in combat. The unit with the highest damage output per point spent is ok in combat. Yeah. They're much more vulnerable now but only to the point of being fair.

Idle Scholar
18-07-2010, 16:44
If they charge a unit large enough to be steadfast they'll lose on the second round of combat. If they charge a decent elite unit they'll die before they can really do anything.

Flash Felix
18-07-2010, 21:05
If they charge a unit large enough to be steadfast they'll lose on the second round of combat. If they charge a decent elite unit they'll die before they can really do anything.

7 PCB charging my Longbeards with GW, in the front, will kill 1.7 of them with Toughness tests, and then their 21 Hatred re-roll S5 attacks will kill another 11. My Longbeards will then retaliate with 3-4 kills in return. 1 PCB will probably have died prior to that with a Toughness test fail. My Longbeards may not be stubborn at this stage, as the unit of 20 may now be down to less than 2 full ranks, and will therefore lose Steadfast. If that's the case, they're testing on about a -7 (including the standard).

Those 7 PCBs are now down to about 2 or 3, and are pretty wrecked as a unit. But they only cost 112 pts, and have just demolished a unit costing around 350 points. Even if the Longbeards hold, and proceed to win in the second round (and they will), the PCBs will have singlehandedly killed over half the unit, more likely 2/3s. That is not a bad return on investment, against one of the elite units in what is meant to be an elite army.

Face it mate, PCBs are better than 'OK'.

Idle Scholar
18-07-2010, 22:22
7 PCB's charge in, 1.17 dies from gas so 18 attacks which kills 6.25 longbeards (I'm going by the picture on GW and so assuming the longbeards have shields, if they don't then 9 die). 1.67 longbeards also die from gas. In return they kill 3.67. So the average combat result is:

PCB's: 7.92

Longbeards: 4.83

But the longbeards have banner, outnumber one rank vs being charged so the Longbeards lose by one, or win by one if they charge.

Now of course you did say that skaven players will now just combi charge with a unit of clanrats, and in that case the longbeards lose. But thats a) good tactical play by the skaven player and b) no longer a 350 point unit defeated or made combat ineffective by 112 pts.

However, longbeards neither have I4, 1+ AS or 2 attacks, nor do they cost <7 pts per model. I think units that fall into any one of those categories will handily defeat PCB's. Not to mention the fact with TLoS you can just shoot them.

So yeah, you are right that they're still beasts in close combat but only against a much smaller selection of enemy units.

Flash Felix
19-07-2010, 00:00
I rechecked my figures, and I used the wrong ones above. It's not as dire as I thought, but still not pleasant for the Dwarf player. I also forgot to take away the attacks for the PCB who dies from the fumes, so there are only 18 attacks, not 21.

But those 18 attacks, hitting on 4s with a reroll, will have 13.5 hits. Wounding my Longbeards (or Hammerers, or any Dwarf unit) on 3s, with no armour save (Hvy armour, no shield due to GW) means 9 dead Dwarves, plus the 1.7 (rounded to 2), leaving a 20 strong unit standing at 9. Ironbreakers will do better of course, but I don't run them (nor do many other Dwarf players).

In return, the PCB lose 1.2 to the fumes, rounded down to 1. The Longbeards have 10 attacks hitting on 3s, so 7.4 hits, S6 giving 5.6 wounds. So the PCBs are probably wiped out, but the those Longbeards are useless for anything. Even Clanrats should be able to wipe them out now. So while I was wrong to say that 112 points of PCB will beat 350 points of Longbeards, they do enough to cripple them.

Regarding your point about 1+ AS, I imagine PCBs are great against knights; Empire, Elven and Bretonnians will lose half their number before the fighting starts. Even Chaos Knights will lose a third of their number. Same for Black Guard and Swordmasters; they might slaughter the PCB in combat, but not without losing half their front rank. Cheap models will have issues with the T4. And any of them that do survive will wreak havoc with those S5 attacks.

Finally, regarding shooting them and TLoS; all I can say is Storm Banner and Howling Warpgale. Not as easy as you might think to do this.

jospoon
20-07-2010, 05:57
while we are still at HPA, I would like to ask if enemy kill it and it does come back alive, does enemy get the VP?

If after it returned from dead and dies again, can it roll on the chart to test whether it can come back alive?

If yes, how does the VP works here? I'm confused. :S

eyescrossed
20-07-2010, 07:06
I don't think so.

fenrisnorth
20-07-2010, 22:31
Although there seem to be plenty of posts which are just "whining" about how broken skaven are and posts saying "QQ less skaven are fine l2p" I am starting to agree with the former group. After seven pages the best advice I have gotten is:

Just ignore the math, fight it as normal and hope for extreme good luck.
Take excessive amounts of flaming attacks or simply give my best unit the flaming banner significantly hurting myself against opponents who do not take HPAs or excessive amounts of other regenerating units.
Panic it (but no solid advice on how to do this, especially enough times to overcome its base LD 8)
Play a gunline and Shoot it a lot and hope that it does not have cover from other units, the storm banner, or the howling warp gale up at the time, which is easier said than done, especially considering I play armies with very poor shooting and the +1 for large targets is gone.

TheDilz
20-07-2010, 22:56
At its current points value it needs to drop the 360 LOS/charge, and be I1.

In a vacuum its not completely broken, but combined with storm banner, doomwheels, and multiple HPAs it is regoddamndiculous.

Jericho
20-07-2010, 23:34
You might say "retardiculous" ;)

thechosenone
21-07-2010, 03:34
At its current points value it needs to drop the 360 LOS/charge, and be I1.

In a vacuum its not completely broken, but combined with storm banner, doomwheels, and multiple HPAs it is regoddamndiculous.

For one, multiple Abomb is as cheese as multiple hydras and would just be avoided unless its a hardcore game.


For two, doomwheel has nothing to do with Abomb. Doom wheel will be nowhere near the abomb because it would have to be shooting it because its the closest unit. Doomwheel isn't broken. After the charge its pretty tame. Bunch of str 2 attacks and D3 grinds. woop.

Storm Banner is good, sorry, sometimes an army gets good stuff.

Using panic is hard because the abomb travels alone. Taking flaming attacks is not a bad thing. Taking lore of fire or light is not a bad thing. Hitting it with I tests is not a bad thing. Hexing it with any number of spells is not a bad thing. Ogres with brain gobbler is a great way to go. You can kill this thing with shooting, with magick, and with flaming attacks. Use your own uber unit

Point is, without an abomb at the cost its at, the skaven have a weakness. A very killy unit in an army with few heavy killer units, is too expensive to take. If you take its abilities away than its not worth it to take it and just hoard up more.

eyescrossed
21-07-2010, 10:30
Storm Banner is good, sorry, sometimes an army gets good stuff.
:rolleyes:



Point is, without an abomb at the cost its at, the skaven have a weakness. A very killy unit in an army with few heavy killer units, is too expensive to take. If you take its abilities away than its not worth it to take it and just hoard up more.
So you're saying that without a severely underpriced unit, it's difficult for Skaven to compete? With the Storm Banner, 2 point Ld10 Stubborn Slaves (and don't say they don't come with it because nobody in their right mind would take bare 20 man units except for Suicide Slaves)? The Doomwheel?

Only Clan Eshin stuff is overpriced and even then Assassins are great (well, in my opinion at least). The Army Book reminds me of Dark Elves in 7th. No-brainer units and a variety of things nobody takes.




... give my best unit the flaming banner significantly hurting myself against opponents who do not take HPAs or excessive amounts of other regenerating units ...
This.

Stumpy
21-07-2010, 13:26
Clan eshin stuff isn't overpriced! Gutter runners are great and while night runners may suck, night runners+warp-grinder are game-breaking.

Rafi
21-07-2010, 13:53
With 8th's new rules on monstrous infantry I'd expect to see trolls a lot more often. I'd bring flaming attacks anyway.

Anyway, I didn't see anyone mention the Pipes of Doom as a way for O&G to deal with Abombs, so I figured I should. Try to sound the Horn of Urgok the same turn to drop it's Ld down to 7 too.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-07-2010, 14:31
Any questions? LordSolarPlexus?

Indeed, Trains_Get_Robbed. First amongst them: Are you capable of writing a single comprehensible sentence?



This is just an average amount shooting too 12 archers shots after a turn 12 archers for one turn they will be at 6's assuming long range and Storm banner, as well as my Mage with Reaver Bow he will also be on 6's (he is in the unit).


12 archers too shot after one turn 12 archer turn? A very helpful and convincing suggestion, Trains_Get_Robbed. 12 archers hitting and wounding on 6's will do precisely zilch so I will ignore them. Your Repeaters do .667 wounds, so let's assume one wound for the sake of argument. If you're hitting on 4's with the Bow, that's another whopping .375 wounds. I'm afraid you are lucky to cause a single wound in this one turn.

Let's assume the HPA is in short range so your chances increase on the second turn. You're hitting mostly on 3's, so your archers are now doing a whopping .667 wounds, the repeaters do 1.33 wounds and the bow .5.

Thusly, dear Trains_Get_Robbed, you have *perhaps* done 2-3 wounds, and that assumes the Storm Banner went dead on your second turn. You say it yourself:



when it hits my lines


So you agree with me that you could not take it down with shooting. You say that was only an average amount of shooting. Okay, granted - but all this shooting has been focused on a single unit. The Doomwheel, the PCB's and every single block are completely unscathed, and what have you accomplished if it does come back?

I'm afraid despite the thick and apparent venom and arrogance in your post this is not the solution.


Alot of armies can push out enough fire to drop the thing in 1 turn.

Okay, 'impossible' is too harsh, let me retract that. My experience differs wildly from yours then, and I have spent bucketloads of points on missile units in at least a dozen games with next to no effect. It isn't as if every single unit and WM can always shoot at the Abom. There's also LoS and angle and other units to consider...

Skyros
21-07-2010, 14:34
Again, why is it so bad for this unit to be so goof at killing stuff? Nothing else in the skaven army causes wounds! Not reliably anyway. Not clan rats, not storm vermin, not tooled up characters. So the Abomb and Rogers kick a little butt, why can't they have one affordable combat beast?

This is completely untrue. The skaven have a *wealth* of ways to cause wounds in combat.

Doomwheels get grind attacks at the beginning of each round of combat and can shoot S10 bolts into combat.

Stormvermin are S4. With queek they are S5.

Rat ogres are insane in close combat.

Plague furnace is good in close combat.

Plague sensor bearers are good in close combat.

In short, you have *MUCH* greater close combat ability than, say, an empire or dwarf army...where is their hell pit abomination?

Saying nothing other than the HPA has close combat potential is just laughably untrue.

The skaven list would be very good and full of synergy even if the HPA never existed. With it, and the stormbanner, it can be pretty insane. It's not like the skaven are starved for good rare choices, either. Both the doomwheel and the plagueclaw catapult are good in 8th edition.

The skaven list is absolutely not a bad one that has to be propped up by an overpowered/undercosted unit like the HPA.

Skyros
21-07-2010, 14:39
bad luck does play a part in it I suppose, but you have to realize that the hellpit is entirely luck based, which makes it un-reliable, sure, it could get 2d6 hits, or it could get 4. when it gets 4, you lose. and stubborn 8 is not going to keep it around for long

Ok, you skaven players are just spoiled.

You're going on and on about how the HPA is 'only' stubborn 8. I guess you are too used to your whole army being stubborn 10 or something.

You *do* realize that some armies *elite units* are stubborn 8? Such as empire greatswords?

Stubborn 8 will have you stick around a long time. Besides, you only have a possibility of losing the combat if you roll a 1 or 2 instead of 3-6.



But even when it does work, what do you get? 3d6 attacks, thats on average about 11 attacks, 4's to hit

THEY ARE AUTO HITS.

No wonder you think the HPA isn't overpowered, you've been *halving* his combat potential!

11 attacks = 11 hits = about 9 dead guys. Then you add in thunderstomp.

(I'm *reallllly* hoping I'm wrong here and the HPA has to roll to hit, but I'm almost positive that is not the case)


The main problem is assuming that Doomwheels and PCB's are great in combat. PCB's poor initiative means you have to take a lot of them

They don't have poor initiative. They have average initiative. Or, put another way, they have the same initiative as even the 'elite' greatswords and knights in an Empire army.

It's hilarious to watch skaven complain about how bad their army is in CC when they are at least as competitive there as Empire and OnG.

You already have terrific ability to kill people in CC by combining skaven slaves with the ability to fire template weapons into close combat.

theweck
21-07-2010, 18:28
Anyone have any experiance with Fanatics versus the HPA? It seems as though OnG are not in a very good place to deal with the HPA given the low initiative across the board, and the fact that we don't have access to fire magic.

The Flame banner is nice, but seem situationally useful. It seems as though a few fanatics shooting out at the HPA would be a good way to get some instant S5 hits regardless of the direction the HPA is coming from. Not an ideal solution, but I think it has potential.

Bulk warmachines could be good. Maybe just a nasty tarpit?

What are other peoples thoughts on OnG HPA hunting?

Sygerrik
21-07-2010, 19:34
THEY ARE AUTO HITS.

No wonder you think the HPA isn't overpowered, you've been *halving* his combat potential!

11 attacks = 11 hits = about 9 dead guys. Then you add in thunderstomp.

(I'm *reallllly* hoping I'm wrong here and the HPA has to roll to hit, but I'm almost positive that is not the case)



You are wrong. Here are the HPA's three attack options:
1) One auto-hit to everyone touching it that allows no AS and does d3 wounds
2) 3d6 ATTACKS, that do NOT automatically hit. They are attacks, so you use the HPA's WS to resolve them like ordinary attacks.
3) One initiative test for each model touching it with S6 auto-hits for failures, plus 2d6 S6 autohits against ONE enemy unit

Assuming it gets the charge (which is quite an assumption, since the HPA is the equivalent of a M3.5 infantry unit when determining charge ranges):
1) If it rolls option one, assuming it survives the combat, it gets 2d6 auto-hits as S6 plus 5 extra hits. Total: 12 S6 hits, about 10 wounds; against S3 WS3 troops, it should take 4.5 wounds back, regenerating 2.25 of them, for roughly two wounds suffered. Enemy unit loses combat by 6-7, is Steadfast.

2) If it rolls option two, again assuming it survives, it averages the 7 autohits plus 5.25 more hits, for about 10 wounds. Same results back, HPA wins combat by 6-7, enemy is still Steadfast.

3) If it rolls option three, same assumptions, it averages 7 autohits plus 2.5 more hits from failed I tests and 7 more hits from rolling, for a total of 16.5 hits, for about 13.75 wounds. Same results back, HPA wins combat by 9 or so, enemy is STILL Steadfast.

The HPA is very potent. But if it doesn't charge, it loses its impact attacks, and that is a big part of its combat resolution. And it doesn't have as good a chance of getting the charge as it used to. Remember, everyone charges 2d6+ M; the HPA charges 2d6 + another d6. Therefore, its average charge range is 10.5", compared to 12" for M5 infantry, or 11" for M4. Back when average charge range was 8-10", the HPA's average 10.5" was great, but now that it's higher the HPA has lots its edge.

Bottom line: it's very good, but the only way it'll make up its points is if it hits a small, expensive, elite enemy unit without flaming attacks. If it hits basic troops it'll spend the whole game pounding away at a unit that costs as much as or less than it does and never be able to break them.

Skyros
21-07-2010, 20:20
Or you could pair it with a cheap as chips unit of slaves to remove steadfast and automatically win every fight. ;)

In my experience, it's not correct say the HPA will spend all game pounding away at normal units. That's the whole point. If it *did* spend all game doing that (like every other monster), that would be balanced. But it doesn't. Even using your numbers, it kills about 13-14 in one round and then 10-12 the next and then the unit breaks and runs. (Or is entirely wiped out). I've seen this happen over and over. If I could tarpit a lone HPA with a big block of infantry all game I'd be ecstatic but I've never seen this happen.

And since the HPA can charge 360 degrees, he never wastes a turn getting back into combat like some units might have to do.

Now, if the 3d6 attacks are just attacks and not auto hits, then at least one of the results has been being played wrong in my area. I will revisit the book and double check. But that would change the number of attacks that completely screw over the enemy from rolling anything from 3 to 6 to just the 5-6, which does help. Why GW made some of the attacks auto hit and some not is beyond me. The skaven book in general has way too many special rules :p

I'm not sure why you say all WS3 S3 attacks back are the same in all cases, I definitely remember that in one case (I believe the 3-4 result) the enemy suffers a penalty to hit because they are shocked and dismayed by the huge number of their friends that just died.

I'm also not sure why you'd say the HPA getting the charge is in question, when most armies want to shoot it to death rather than charge it. Charging it means you just lost a round of shooting/magic. For many armies this is not a good trade. Plus, it's not like skaven have a shortage of cheap units to tie up the enemy so the HPA can charge in from the flank or something.

I think the ease with which the HPA can dispense of stubborn/unbreakable/steadfast infantry blocks really breaks the paradigm of monsters in the 8th ed- particularly when placed in an army that is already excellent and has good built in counters to heavy shooting (the HPA's weakness). The HPA, on some rolls, seems to have the hitting power of something like 20-30 Inner circle knights with great weapons, and he would attack before them. (Not that all of them would ever be able to attack at once). Such a unit would cost between about 500 and 800 points. Oh and it wouldn't be stubborn, nor could it charge in 360 degrees nor deny the enemy a charge reaction nor have regen nor have a chance of coming back from the dead. Granted it would have better armor against low S attacks than the HPA does. But you can see why people think the HPA is grotesquely undercosted.

But thank you for your post. It was informative and helpful. I appreciate it.

fenrisnorth
21-07-2010, 20:54
Sygerrik, are you sure you math is right?

How is standard infantry doing 2.5 wounds in an average turn? Unless it is flanked only 4 files get to attack. Without spears or horde that is 5.5 hits, .91 wounds, .46 with regen. Even if they are a spear armed horde they do less than a wound on average, even with flaming attacks.
It also causes fear / terror, meaning said WS 3 troops might be hitting on 5s and hit on 3s.
Are you remembering that it also thunder stomps now?
True its charge distance isn't great anymore, but the 360 degree charge arc means it will usually charge, and often in the flank or rear.
Also if it is fighting characters or multi wound models it is even more effective as some of its attacks do d3 wounds.
Also, it inflicts a -1 penalty on its opponents weapon skill at times, and is itself I4, so will strike first against most things in the game.

Hicks
21-07-2010, 22:53
I've been reading this thread and as a soon to be returning WHFB player, I'm scared to death of that thing. My friend is starting Skavens as soon as the starter sets is going to be availible and knowing him... he will have at least one HPA.

Let's hope I get lucky enough with my dwarven warmachines to stop those things.

I originally quit Fantasy because my Vampire Lord could slaughter whole armies by himself (5th ed I think?), now it seems monsters have replaced herohammer :(.

w3rm
22-07-2010, 00:03
:rolleyes:



So you're saying that without a severely underpriced unit, it's difficult for Skaven to compete? With the Storm Banner, 2 point Ld10 Stubborn Slaves (and don't say they don't come with it because nobody in their right mind would take bare 20 man units except for Suicide Slaves)? The Doomwheel?


This.

Umm theyre not quite stubborn ld 10. Theyre stubborn ld 7 if near a seer or Warlod and can get up to 10 leadership which isnt stubborn.

And here's a few counters off the top of my head

-2 Heralds of Khorne each with FSB and on Juggers. Maybe in a unit of flesh hounds or have them jump out of a bloodletter unit. Should do fairly well against a HPA. And only 100 points more expensive.

-Black Guard with Fire Banner and BSB with Hydra banner. If you can get it in the flank awesome even a unit of 6 with a BSB Master and Champion is getting 19 str 4 flaming hits and 4 str 5 flaming.

I'm not sure if this would work but Black Orc Warboss with Cleava and on a boar in a unit of boar boyz with the flaming banner 4 if i hit you you take a wound and with a black orcs ws of 7 getting hits shouldnt be to much of a problem

-Dance a unit of zombies into it. Have a vampire with sceptre di noroit near them. hes summoning 10-15 zombies with each sucsessful casting which he can get 1 or 2 times off a turn easy. Then hes stuck there while you take care of the rest of his army while it eats zombies the whole time.

- SSC. With 3 of these bad boys acsessable in 8th you can plonk a few str 9 d6 wound flaming shots on him. You can get up to 6 shots a turn with magic too.

- a unit of peasent bowmen with flaming arrows. hope to get a single wound off on him then slam him with trebuchet fire.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
22-07-2010, 00:13
Did someone say whine?

How would I counter a HPA?
Well, I play a variety of armies, though in all of them I try to include at least one unit that has flaming attacks to counter the regeneration that is seen in the current meta game.
This could be a missile unit with flaming attacks, not particularly powerful by itself but you're really looking for this unit to cause a wound so the HPA loses its regeneration save for the phase. (To the people that moan about the Storm Banner there is only a 25% chance it will effect the enemy for more than one turn).
Alternatively, blast the HPA with some flaming attacks in the magic phase.

Running through the armies I am most familiar with,
Empire: access to useful magic lores, Banner of Eternal Flame (BoEF), war machines,
High Elves: access to useful magic lores, BoEF, war machines,
Warriors of Chaos: access to useful magic lores,
Bretonnians: peasant archers with braziers, trebuchets,
Wood Elves: BoEF, Hail of Doom Arrow.

To me, the thing about the above suggestions is that they are useful in a wide context, not just for dealing with HPA's.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
22-07-2010, 00:16
Umm theyre not quite stubborn ld 10. Theyre stubborn ld 7 if near a seer or Warlod and can get up to 10 leadership which isnt stubborn.

You're opening up a can of worms with this one. Wait for the FAQ on Steadfast and how Leadership modifiers outside of combat resolution effect it. Currently, people seem to strongly disagree on the matter!

immortal git
22-07-2010, 00:18
Tyrant
tenderiser
4+ ward item

slap him in a unit of ig with banner of flame and let the fireworks commense I know a bad joke but hey

sulla
22-07-2010, 01:59
Tyrant
tenderiser
4+ ward item

slap him in a unit of ig with banner of flame and let the fireworks commense I know a bad joke but heyWhat does that unit cost? 2 HPAs? More? Plus the tenderiser doesn't get flaming hits either.

Heh, you could probably kill him with a BSB hero with the flaming banner &2 hand weapons in a block of 4 leadbelchers. 4d6 flaming stand and shoot attacks before it attacks. I4 is really nasty on it though. You would lose most of the unit before you get to strike in cc.

thechosenone
22-07-2010, 06:11
What does that unit cost? 2 HPAs? More? Plus the tenderiser doesn't get flaming hits either.

Heh, you could probably kill him with a BSB hero with the flaming banner &2 hand weapons in a block of 4 leadbelchers. 4d6 flaming stand and shoot attacks before it attacks. I4 is really nasty on it though. You would lose most of the unit before you get to strike in cc.

You don't get stand and shoot against random movement.

sulla
22-07-2010, 06:59
Tyrant
tenderiser
4+ ward item

slap him in a unit of ig with banner of flame and let the fireworks commense I know a bad joke but hey


You don't get stand and shoot against random movement.Fair enough, they have to walk within 12" of him then... The other good weapon in the OK arsenal is of course gnoblars. A 100pt unit of gnoblars will take an abomination out of the game for 3-5 combat phases awhile you mince the rest of the list. Take 3 of them in your list and you can take most hammers out of the game...

Rogzor87
22-07-2010, 07:11
my Daemon Plague Bearers + Nurgle Herald Rocked the HPA. Miasma of Pestilence > HPA.... Oh Noes fear the str 1 attacks!!!!!!!!!!

Not to mention it becomes toughness 1 and anything can easily hurt/wound it in combat then!!!!

soots
22-07-2010, 07:56
my Daemon Plague Bearers + Nurgle Herald Rocked the HPA. Miasma of Pestilence > HPA.... Oh Noes fear the str 1 attacks!!!!!!!!!!

Not to mention it becomes toughness 1 and anything can easily hurt/wound it in combat then!!!!

My Strength 12 Infernal gateway?
My Pit of Shades?
My Purple Sun?
My 6 attacks at Ws1 + S1, all hitting, wounding and him failing all his regen rolls?

Rogzor87
22-07-2010, 17:05
My Strength 12 Infernal gateway?
My Pit of Shades?
My Purple Sun?
My 6 attacks at Ws1 + S1, all hitting, wounding and him failing all his regen rolls?

I don't really understand what your trying to say quoting my post and then saying that stuff.

I was simply stating that my herald of nurgle + plaguebearers easily killed an HPA before.

Skyros
22-07-2010, 17:13
Well they should, they cost way more :p

Rogzor87
22-07-2010, 17:36
yeah. they did but not an absurd amount more. 390 pnts compared to the 250pnt hellpit and they kept going to kill more skaven.

I just find it amusing people just keep crying about the thing instead of finding easy ways to stop it. Its not hard it really isn't.

I play skaven and the only reason I don't use the HPA is because I haven't made one yet. Just to lazy honestly. I also play WoC, Daemons, OnG and each one I have been able to kill the HPA.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-07-2010, 17:39
1) If it rolls option one, assuming it survives the combat, it gets 2d6 auto-hits as S6 plus 5 extra hits. Total: 12 S6 hits, about 10 wounds; against S3 WS3 troops, it should take 4.5 wounds back, regenerating 2.25 of them, for roughly two wounds suffered. Enemy unit loses combat by 6-7, is Steadfast.


Assuming it survives the combat? :confused: The combat hasn't even started yet. Also, it takes *perhaps* a single wound, so of course it survives the combat. It also does d6 impact hits and d6 stomp attacks for another 7 wounds.

You're not going to be steadfast for very long and all WS3, S3 units usually have Ld 7 at best - the unbreakable Skaven exempted.



2) If it rolls option two, again assuming it survives, it averages the 7 autohits plus 5.25 more hits, for about 10 wounds.


Plus another 7 autohits.... and you don't get a charge reaction.


I've been reading this thread and as a soon to be returning WHFB player, I'm scared to death of that thing.


Well, it usually kills all of my army on its own. No, that's not true, a heavy flamer teleporting behind me kills a few blocks as well.

TheDilz
22-07-2010, 18:16
Did someone say whine?

How would I counter a HPA?
Well, I play a variety of armies, though in all of them I try to include at least one unit that has flaming attacks to counter the regeneration that is seen in the current meta game.
This could be a missile unit with flaming attacks, not particularly powerful by itself but you're really looking for this unit to cause a wound so the HPA loses its regeneration save for the phase. (To the people that moan about the Storm Banner there is only a 25% chance it will effect the enemy for more than one turn).
Alternatively, blast the HPA with some flaming attacks in the magic phase.

Running through the armies I am most familiar with,
Empire: access to useful magic lores, Banner of Eternal Flame (BoEF), war machines,
High Elves: access to useful magic lores, BoEF, war machines,
Warriors of Chaos: access to useful magic lores,
Bretonnians: peasant archers with braziers, trebuchets,
Wood Elves: BoEF, Hail of Doom Arrow.

To me, the thing about the above suggestions is that they are useful in a wide context, not just for dealing with HPA's.

Did someone say not listening?

I love how all these "counters" people are coming up with have been repeatedly dismissed by showing maths, yet you are still preaching the same solutions.

Here let me make this clear for you: Nothing can kill the HPA before it gets to you aside from dumping 3-4x its points value into it, AND having good luck.

The Storm Banner only needs to work for one turn. With the speed of charges increased, there are generally only 2 turns of shooting before battle is joined, and if the Skaven go first, and have the Storm banner, you might not get any effective shooting in at all before they can tie up your missile troops/war machines. If the banner works for 2 turns you certainly wont get any effective shooting at all.

Running one of these puts a serious strain on target priority and running 2 or more plus the doomwheel plus the banner just gets silly.

The bottom line HPA is really badly written. 8 page threads dont spring up over well written rules/gamepieces.

In fact 7 pages of FAQ in the Skaven codex leads me to believe the Skaven book has far too many unnecessary rules and additions in general. The combination of all these poorly written units really stink bombs a game. :cheese:

Skyros
22-07-2010, 18:21
Its not hard it really isn't.



You're not paying attention. There are a handful of armies whose troops/characters are powerful enough and have high enough I to kill the HPA before it attacks.

For the many armies not in this position, who can't handle it well in close combat, your only option is to shoot it down, which is hard with the stormbanner.

Rogzor87
22-07-2010, 18:43
Then use magic. Only army I can possibly see struggle are the Dwarves.

Skyros
22-07-2010, 19:28
Dwarves actually may be ok with flaming cannons/grudgethrowers and lots of them.

Although I'm pretty sure we already discussed magic regarding the HPA. Maybe that was another thread.

Saying 'use magic' doesn't at all begin to answer the point that the HPA is undercosted and breaks the paradigm about being tar-pittable that all other big monsters follow.

Flash Felix
22-07-2010, 20:52
Then use magic. Only army I can possibly see struggle are the Dwarves.


Dwarves actually may be ok with flaming cannons/grudgethrowers and lots of them.




Dwarves aren't OK. Those flaming cannons and Grudge Throwers now need a 4+ to work. They'll also be target number 1 for the gutter runners coming on from the rear.

We might be lucky and roll the 4+ all the time. We might be lucky and make the shots before the HPA arrives. We might be lucky and the gutter runners might be late/ineffective/gunned down early. But that's quite a lot of luck. Meanwhile the Furnace, Doomwheels and PCBs are also demanding our attention. Oh, and there are those Skaven players who think 2 HPA is a cool thing to do. Good luck dealing with 2 of these at the same time.....

Malorian
22-07-2010, 21:21
Oh, and there are those Skaven players who think 2 HPA is a cool thing to do. Good luck dealing with 2 of these at the same time.....

All of a sudden the idea of 0-1 sounds pretty good ;)

fenrisnorth
22-07-2010, 21:51
Just had a thought about all the people suggesting that I give my biggest unit the flaming banner instead of one that is far more useful. There are many units in the game that are immune or highly resistant to fire, for every hellpit abomination there are is a unit of dragon princes waiting in the wings. Giving your "deathstar" unit the flaming banner might actually hurt them significantly against some opponents, not really a good idea for an all comers list.

Kratorix
22-07-2010, 22:28
If you are playing a horde army (Goblins,Skaven,etc) then killing the HPA is quite easy, you just need to flank on both sides,rear,and front charge it with each unit being about 5 wide and 4 deep. Once all the charges are set you will have to get a combat res high enough (or just be lucky when it fails ld) and make it flee and any way it flees it will hit your unit causing an instant kill.


With dwarfs however it is best to get Miners to use blasting charges (flaming) and mini squads of Thunderers to shoot after.

Beastmen: I do not have much experience playing with them but for sure you will need to gunline shooting units (if you have any) and do the horde army all round tactic.:wtf:you may say but that tactic is effective.....


Ogres!!!! You will need the HPA to charge a unit of gnoblars (atleast 20 gnoblars so there will be some surviving like 2 after the cc. I use 30-40)
The gnoblars will S&S . And after that combat hope that your gnoblars are alive and fighting next round so your bulls and ironguts can flank and rear all the wounds and send in the Sabertusks.


Lizardmen: Shoot with a ton of skinks.:confused:

shredshredxx
22-07-2010, 22:50
a staple of my army has always been my grave guard with hellfire banner+vampire lord with great weapon+wight king bsb mini-deathstar. it always seems to do fine enough against my buddy's hpa, and it only takes a turn or 2 of combat.

the only trouble is finding enough dice to vanhel's the unit into the hpa.

if he's not feeling particularly confident with his hpa that game, blood knights are a suitable second choice, preferably with some sort of block of static cr to help them out.

Kratorix
22-07-2010, 23:26
My Strength 12 Infernal gateway?
My Pit of Shades?
My Purple Sun?
My 6 attacks at Ws1 + S1, all hitting, wounding and him failing all his regen rolls?



I thought you can't have a stat higher than 10.......

Stumpy
22-07-2010, 23:30
Well of course a 1000 point deathstar with great weapons, two characters and flaming attacks should be able to take it down ;)
No-one say magic, that's stupid and you know it. Magic is totally unreliable (ok I have this turn to bring down the HPA... I roll 4 power dice) and besides that there isn't much to hit it with. You have to give your magic lore when you write your army list... raise your hand if you use the lore of fire!
No?

Tower_Of_The_Stars
22-07-2010, 23:59
I love how all these "counters" people are coming up with have been repeatedly dismissed by showing maths, yet you are still preaching the same solutions.

As well as Skaven, I play Empire. I will demonstrate how I would counter a HPA in detail when playing Empire. Perhaps people who play other armies could do the same instead of whining?!

Firstly, I would target the HPA with my unit of 14 Handgunners with BoEF, an extremely useful unit by the way. Now God forbid the Storm Banner actually runs out after a turn, at long range I would be scoring, on average, 14x(1/3)x(1/3) =~ 1.5 wounds. With regeneration gone for the phase, I now hit it with both my cannons. I do admit, like most tactics in Warhammer, this isn't fool proof. Indeed, the Storm Banner may stay active for longer than one turn or my unit of Handgunners may not be able to target the HPA. However, when combined with a strong, versatile magic phase, I have a good chance of dealing with the HPA.


Here let me make this clear for you: Nothing can kill the HPA before it gets to you aside from dumping 3-4x its points value into it, AND having good luck.

This is of course true. Do you think people would take anything other than missile units or magic casters if they could eliminate their own points cost in two turns? Wiping out an enemy unit certainly requires you to "dump" more points into the target unit than the cost of the target unit itself.


In fact 7 pages of FAQ in the Skaven codex leads me to believe the Skaven book has far too many unnecessary rules and additions in general. The combination of all these poorly written units really stink bombs a game. :cheese:

Skaven have always had lots of special rules. It in part makes up the character of their army. The 7 pages of FAQ were as a result of a badly worded army book.

P.S. I see you finished off your whine with some cheese. How civilized.

P.S. Out of curiosity I checked your profile. You play Dwarves and Chaos apparently. How on earth can you complain so incessantly about the HPA?! You have extremely good counters to it.

Stumpy
23-07-2010, 01:08
So your playing is based on handgunners being able to take magic standards (they can't) and the storm banner never being activated? With the storm banner active and no magic standard, you get 1.2 hits, 0.19 wounds and don't get rid of regen. Yay! Then two cannons fire, one doesn't roll its 4+, so one cannon. Say you guess 4.1" short (that seems good). Discounting misfires, the roll of 10, failing to bounce on 2 or 4, failing to wound and regen, 24.3% chance of getting through to the point of being able to do D6 wounds. It happens but do you want to count on it?

Flash Felix
23-07-2010, 04:15
I'm not entirely sure, but I believe that if there is an Empire General as your army general, then one unit of State Troops may take a magic banner. However, whether you'd want this to be a unit of 14 handgunners is another matter.

In addition, I hope your handgunners are within range. Most Skaven armies will have more deployments, so they'll place their decisive units, such as the HPA, after their opponents.

And Tower of the Stars seems to have missed the -2 modifier to shooting inflicted by the Storm Banner. So at long range, those handgunners will have -1 due to range and -2 due to the Banner, so they'll need 7s to hit (there may be other negative modifiers too). That means 14 handgunners will hit it 1.15 times, needing 5s to wound. Even if they're flaming attacks, it's unlikely they'll strip the regeneration. And those cannons still need 4+ to wound.

As has been pointed out before, the synergy of the Storm Banner and the HPA (hell, the Storm Banner and the whole Skaven army) is pretty fantastic. Shooting alone is unlikely to stop the HPA, so you'd better make sure the troops are properly moraled, because they're going to be eating a lot of S6 attacks unless you're really lucky.

Lord Inquisitor
23-07-2010, 05:35
The bottom line HPA is really badly written. 8 page threads dont spring up over well written rules/gamepieces.

In fact 7 pages of FAQ in the Skaven codex leads me to believe the Skaven book has far too many unnecessary rules and additions in general. The combination of all these poorly written units really stink bombs a game. :cheese:

Agreed. Many aspects of the skaven book are poorly written, including giving perhaps one of the most craven races in Warhammer excellent effective leadership and access to multiple sources of unbreakable units.

The HPA is disgusting and 8th has only made it worse now that large target bonus is gone and it gained thunderstomp.

I've had one literally eat my entire daemon army, one unit at a time. Quite capable of chewing up greater daemons three times it's cost that are considered cheesy by every other army.

One of the worst things about the HPA that hasn't been discussed much is that it's so wonky that even if you do have a solution for it (e.g. Shooting, magic, etc) that gets through the skaven player's impressive defenses then you've probably had to ignore the rest of the skaven army for at least two turns. Alternatively, the HPA can end up Close to the rest of the army and with that 360 charge arc, can dominate the opponent's tactics.

HPAs are like a giant lead weight on the tactics of warhammer. No conventional approach works, they can't be reliably killed at range, it has the potential to chew up and spit out literally any unit in the game and costs far too little... Stupid things...

Rosstifer
23-07-2010, 06:12
I'm a bit concerned here. If the new Hellpit model turns out to be as awesome as the rest of the new Skaven I'll want to get one. But is there anyway of fielding it that would be seen as acceptable? I'm a sucker for cool models but I'm no power gamer.

Rogzor87
23-07-2010, 06:15
Honestly just field it imo. If a person makes a balanced list they will have a source to kill it. No reason to limit yourself because the opponents don't make balanced list.

I have killed an HPA /w WoC, Daemons, O&G, and Skaven. And it didn't take that much effort. Yes some list I had to use more points then the HPA is worth but it wasn't game breaking.

Stumpy
23-07-2010, 06:19
Go ahead and take one, if the rest of your list is alright and you realise its underpriced and anything it does has nothing to do with your tactical ability its ok-ish.

Rogzor87
23-07-2010, 06:23
you still have to have a tactical ability to use it. you can't control its movement and attacks but you control where it moves and what other things in your army synergize with it and if need be what to charge ahead with it as well.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-07-2010, 06:41
If you are playing a horde army (Goblins,Skaven,etc) then killing the HPA is quite easy, you just need to flank on both sides,rear,and front charge it with each unit being about 5 wide and 4 deep.


I understand that charging any other unit on four sides with large blocks is a good way to defeat every unit out there. This is however hardly "quite easy". There are bound to be other Skaven units around to lend a hand, so how are you getting to the rear?

To be honest, I have not once seen someone pull this off.



Once all the charges are set you will have to get a combat res high enough (or just be lucky when it fails ld) and make it flee and any way it flees it will hit your unit causing an instant kill.


Let's assume you have indeed hit it with bricks on all sides. You will probably do 3-4 wounds assuming 11 attacks from each block (which tbh I don't think you will get). With standard, ranks, charge, flank and rear you're looking at a CR of 11 or 12.

A Feed attack will cause 16-17 wounds in return + thunderstomp. You have lost.

A Flailing Fists attack will cause 8.75 wounds + thunderstomp. You might be able to draw the fight or win with a musician - if you have at least Ini 4, as otherwise you'll get hit first and suffer -1 to hit.

Avalanche of Flesh does about 17 wounds. You lose again.

That means you have a one third chance to draw IF you can maneouver into a position that allows charges from all sides (utterly unlikely) AND IF you are I 4+ AND IF all charges connect. Quite easy? :wtf:



Ogres!!!! You will need the HPA to charge a unit of gnoblars (atleast 20 gnoblars so there will be some surviving like 2 after the cc. I use 30-40)
The gnoblars will S&S .


Two Gnoblars aren't steadfast so will only hold on snake eyes, and nobody will S & S.

Rogzor87
23-07-2010, 07:23
Remember /w Flailing fist it has to roll to hit as well. On average its 11 attacks with only 6 hitting. Then rolling to wound means 5 on average before Armor Saves. With Avalanche of Flesh you have to fail an Initiative test to take dmg any army with a decent Initiative will be fine against that attack as well. Then it does its 2d6 hits which average out to 7 hits which would be another 6 wounds before armor saves.

And /w the Requested but not required base size of 60x100. Just trying to see the front/flank/flank/rear charge set up. Front charge gets 8(25mm)/10(20mm), side gets 12(25mm)/14(20mm), rear gets 8(25mm)/10(20mm) thats just 1 attack models. So in total that would be as 36(25mm) attacks/44(20mm) attacks, hitting on 4's on average wounding on 6's... 2(25mm) wounds before saves, 4(20mm) wounds before saves. That is 1 attack models /w ws 2-3, str 1-4. If you include spears/horde or more then 1 attack models or things Strength5 or higher will change for the better.

T10
23-07-2010, 07:24
The only thing I can think of is just throwing mass war machine fire at it, but the problem is that none of the armies I play are particularly war machine heavy, and if I do play a "gun line" this makes my army not fun to play and frowned upon by anyone not taking an abomination.

Get yourself some war machines anyway and include them in your default army, but have a regular unit of the same points cost at hand. If you face an army without hell pit abominations you can simply field the substitute unit instead.

-T10

Lord Solar Plexus
23-07-2010, 08:42
Remember /w Flailing fist it has to roll to hit as well.


True. That's only 7-8 dead. Still, that isn't a realistic scenario.



With Avalanche of Flesh you have to fail an Initiative test to take dmg any army with a decent Initiative will be fine against that attack as well. Then it does its 2d6 hits which average out to 7 hits which would be another 6 wounds before armor saves.


Yes, I have considered that. Assuming 20 models @I3 in base contact - which was the example presented as the easiest solution -, that's 8 kills + 6 more + thunderstomp.

I did assume 5 models per arc = 44 attacks for ease of computation. Of course more attacks would be better, as would be a higher strength. It's still a very long shot.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
23-07-2010, 10:30
So your playing is based on handgunners being able to take magic standards (they can't) and the storm banner never being activated

They can take a magic standard if you have a General of the Empire. In answer to your second question,


Now God forbid the Storm Banner actually runs out after a turn

To elaborate, there is only a 25% chance it will effect me for more than one turn.


Say you guess 4.1" short (that seems good). Discounting misfires, the roll of 10, failing to bounce on 2 or 4, failing to wound and regen, 24.3% chance of getting through to the point of being able to do D6 wounds. It happens but do you want to count on it?

Actually, the optimum distance is 10" away from the back of the target's base. This gives you, if my memory serves me correctly, about a 65% chance of hitting the HPA, which would of course alter the statistics you have been giving. I can do the maths properly if you want?

In answer to your last question, I do in part count on it, along with my magic phase and my handgunners and my cannons targeting it without regeneration. The main point I'm making is that, like most problems in Warhammer, you have to tackle the HPA with some versatility. There is not going to be a single solution that works game in, game out, rather a set of solutions whereby you would be "unlucky" if none of them worked.


However, whether you'd want this to be a unit of 14 handgunners is another matter.

Yes, a matter for me to decide since its my army.


In addition, I hope your handgunners are within range. Most Skaven armies will have more deployments, so they'll place their decisive units, such as the HPA, after their opponents.

By the sound of it, I don't think you do want the handgunners to be in range. It seems people in this thread will be more upset if people are able to tackle the HPA, than by the rules for the HPA itself. On a serious note, see above in this post.


And Tower of the Stars seems to have missed the -2 modifier to shooting inflicted by the Storm Banner. So at long range, those handgunners will have -1 due to range and -2 due to the Banner, so they'll need 7s to hit (there may be other negative modifiers too). That means 14 handgunners will hit it 1.15 times, needing 5s to wound. Even if they're flaming attacks, it's unlikely they'll strip the regeneration. And those cannons still need 4+ to wound.

No I haven't. Again seen above.

Now I'm off to paint my third HPA so I can field 3 at 3000 points. Stoke the fire, stoke the fire ;)

Tower_Of_The_Stars
23-07-2010, 10:33
I'm a bit concerned here. If the new Hellpit model turns out to be as awesome as the rest of the new Skaven I'll want to get one. But is there anyway of fielding it that would be seen as acceptable? I'm a sucker for cool models but I'm no power gamer.

Don't let Whineseer influence you too much. In the real life gaming circles I have been to, people don't bat an eye lid when a HPA is put down.

Rogzor87
23-07-2010, 17:38
Because they aren't all to terrible. The people who are complaining are the ones who can't stop them because they can't figure out what to do. I can successfully kill it with each one of my armies and still fight the rest of the skaven for a win. That is without tailoring my army just to kill the thing as well. That is why I don't have a problem with it.

Casshole
23-07-2010, 17:52
The skaven to me are all about army builds. If you want to make a big moulder style GR/Rogres army then an HPA is a perfect fit.

They have way too many special rules for my play taste and are a tad expensive- i feild 2 doomwheels in my Skryre army that ar just a lil more costly that one abom. doomwheels got a semi nerf to their movement so they are alot less gamey now if youa re worried abotu that.

You can also take about 3 wlc (in a 3K+game of course) or plague claws for the cost of the HPA.

Skyros
23-07-2010, 18:42
I'm a bit concerned here. If the new Hellpit model turns out to be as awesome as the rest of the new Skaven I'll want to get one. But is there anyway of fielding it that would be seen as acceptable? I'm a sucker for cool models but I'm no power gamer.

One isn't bad. It's two that are a real killer, magnifying the combat power and undercosted nature of the HPA.

with a stormbanner, and two HPA, it's almost certain one of them is going to reach your lines.

Dark Aly
23-07-2010, 18:57
one quick question (i apologise in advance if i'm being thick) if the dark insanity deamon gift is limited to 10 attacks then why isn't the HPA's random attacks?

Lord Inquisitor
23-07-2010, 19:33
Because they aren't all to terrible. The people who are complaining are the ones who can't stop them because they can't figure out what to do. I can successfully kill it with each one of my armies and still fight the rest of the skaven for a win. That is without tailoring my army just to kill the thing as well. That is why I don't have a problem with it.

Wow, I wish I were as good as you!

They're hideously unbalanced and generally undercosted. That doesn't make them unbeatable - usually. I had a game - my first against the new skaven - where I demolished the enemy army. I avoided the HPA like the plague because I was afraid of what it could do, but ultimately he had only the HPA left and not a single other skaven. I had maybe 1500 points left of my army. I went to finish off the HPA and it ate my army. All of it. It was literally unbeatable for me that day. Any 250-point unit that can actually take on 1500 points of enemy (including me setting up rear charges, etc) and win is not a balanced unit. It was a friendly game and we had a good laugh about it at the time, but the HPA has a horrific potential.

It is killable in general, usually. But it takes a huge amount of effort far disproportionate to its cost. It's also a very random unit. I've seen it eat chaos knights for breakfast, and I've seen it fluff its attacks against empire infantry and run away. Typically it does the former, mind. I've seen the damn thing get back up again after costing me several units to destroy it. Most strategies in dealing with it have a big "hope your opponent doesn't roll well" element.

There are ways of dealing with it. I have neutered one very effectively by leadership-bombing it and attacking it with a Keeper with Allure and Torment Blade. But that's not really a real "tactic" that's more of a "dirty trick" and typically most of the reliable ways of dealing with one fall under this category. Actually engaging it honestly is usually doomed to failure.

I have fought and beated skaven with HPAs in tournaments. However, they always just about give me an ulcer doing so and it certainly feels like the skaven army has a big starting advantage in terms of forcing me to deal with it. Just because it is potentially beatable doesn't make it even remotely balanced. It's not.

Rogzor87
23-07-2010, 19:49
1 Herald of Nurgle can kill it in combat and it cost LESS points. Miasma of Pestilence > HPA and its really easy to cast the spell. So does that make the herald of Nurgle Broken and undercosted?!

Lord Inquisitor
23-07-2010, 20:04
1 Herald of Nurgle can kill it in combat and it cost LESS points. Miasma of Pestilence > HPA and its really easy to cast the spell. So does that make the herald of Nurgle Broken and undercosted?!
Okay... firstly, it would take at least two rounds as the herald only has 3 attacks and it would take on average 7 rounds of combat to kill it, assuming it stayed under Miasma the whole time. Yes, it could be done in one round, especially if the Herald was backed up by a bunch of plaguebearers (by which point the points cost has gone much higher). A Great Unclean One could do better but also for many times the points cost of a HPA and with a big risk that the HPA will do some serious damage if the spell doesn't go off.

If you take a Herald of Nurgle. If you get said Herald of Nurgle into combat with a HPA (the Skaven Player should be aware of this!). If the Skaven player doesn't dispel the spell. And even then the HPA can get back up.

Plaguebearers are a good unit selection against the HPA in general, however, with their poisoned attacks and under 8th ed rules they could give the HPA something to worry about. They're also more resilient against the return attacks (although they only have a 4+ now). So they're a good choice if a bit slow. Nevertheless, like any spell solution to the HPA, it relies on the spell, otherwise your unit is probably going to get chewed up.

Djekar
23-07-2010, 20:10
As for how to kill it with Orcs and goblins - I found that fanatic bunkers behind the lines do great. The HPA (or any unit, really) charges in to Random Block of Boyz A. Fanatic Bunker B is behind RBoBA about 1". When the charging HPA(/other unit) gets within 8" the fanatics are released. You get some that hit the HPA but most of the time there are 2 that land in front of your unit, between RBoBA and HPA charger. The charger is forced to continue their charge and they land on the fanatics for 4d6 (from 2 fanatics) Str 5 hits. Coupled with the 1d6 from the first fanatic, I killed HPA's more than once this way in 7th.

In 8th I feel like it can be even better because you can grab a cheap-o Night Goblin Big Boss (or a BSB if you are wanting to bunker your BSB in the Fanatic bunker as well) with the Mad Cap Mushrooms to reroll the number of hits.

Other ways that my O&G have dealt with them have been panicking the unit off the board (usually my Skaven opponent puts it on a flank so there are other smallish units nearby) nearby and it runs too or the infamous first turn snipe by my pair of chukkas (but that was all the dice loving me that night).

I agree with the sentiment that 1 is okay and 2 are horrendous. I haven't had one eat my whole army yet, but I'm waiting for the day when it happens. As a certain space cowboy mercenary says "That'll be an interesting day."

Skyros
23-07-2010, 20:11
1 Herald of Nurgle can kill it in combat and it cost LESS points. Miasma of Pestilence > HPA and its really easy to cast the spell. So does that make the herald of Nurgle Broken and undercosted?!

So your thesis is that as long as something can be beaten by another unit in close combat, as long as we assume the other unit gets off whatever buffs it want, then it's not overpowered?

Interesting thesis. Useless, but interesting.

Rogzor87
23-07-2010, 22:14
Never said that was my thesis. I stated that the HPA can be easily killed. 1 single model that cost less then the HPA can kill it. People just need to read there own books and make balanced list instead of QQ on forums all day about a simple model that can be killed.

Yes the HPA can do alot of dmg, but it can also flop. People only seem to be looking at the Max and never introduce the min. I have reliably killed the HPA /w 4 armies and still managed to win I do lose some games though but its not just because an HPA is on a field.

My thesis is learn your own book and find a way to stop it instead of complain about it everyday.

Skyros
23-07-2010, 22:40
You really need to pay attention. People are using the average damage of the HPA, not the max.

Moreover, people aren't saying it's unstoppable, just that it is severely undercosted for its points.

Some armies can beat it in CC, others cannot, and these armies need to shoot it down. And that's where the synergy with the storm banner enters and really causes a problem.

You keep saying the same thing, over and over, without paying attention to what others are saying or addressing their points.

Lord Inquisitor
23-07-2010, 23:46
Never said that was my thesis. I stated that the HPA can be easily killed. 1 single model that cost less then the HPA can kill it. People just need to read there own books and make balanced list instead of QQ on forums all day about a simple model that can be killed.
Yes, that 1 single model (who costs a minimum of 165 points) can kill a HPA. If it can get in combat with the HPA, if it can cast the crucial spell without the skaven player dispelling it at all costs (without mistcasting and dying) and if he can do this every turn for 7 close combat phases - if the spell fails for any reason the Abomb would squish him like a bug. And even with the spell, the Abomb may still kill him thanks to his wacky attacks (and I'm not quite sure exactly how the spell and the unique attacks actually work together).

Never mind the fact that this hero is generally not considered worth paying 50 points to make a level 1, given that the signature spell is only useful in combat and will be dispelled (or miscast in a unit of expensive infantry) as a priority by the enemy any time it might actually be useful and given that 8th's ward-or-regen rule has made the plaguebearers much less attractive against all-comers means that this is an example of list-gearing against the A-bomb specifically. Certainly a plaguebearer bunker isn't a terrible thing and there are other things (flamers, flaming Bloodthirsters) that are good all-round and good against the HPA - but these things are not in my list, and I do fine against all other over-the-top monsters like Hydra or Dragons or the like. So yeah, I would have to specifically gear up against the HPA. My Ogres have even more trouble, there are only a handful of workable options and they're all something I wouldn't take in an all-rounder list.

Peril
24-07-2010, 00:02
On the plus side now everyone has access to a cheap banner that give flaming attacks.

Rogzor87
24-07-2010, 00:47
You really need to pay attention. People are using the average damage of the HPA, not the max.

Moreover, people aren't saying it's unstoppable, just that it is severely undercosted for its points.

Some armies can beat it in CC, others cannot, and these armies need to shoot it down. And that's where the synergy with the storm banner enters and really causes a problem.

You keep saying the same thing, over and over, without paying attention to what others are saying or addressing their points.

I am paying attention to what others are saying. You yourself have just been talking about it being undercosted and its dmg output so you shouldn't be trying to criticize me whatsoever. Your little speech hasn't changed since your first post on this thread. Its been the same thing over and over and over.

True some armies can't beat it in CC. Those armies can shoot it or use magic. Then don't go saying magic is unreliable because it can easily be reliable. Armies that can't shoot it Can then just use magic. The ONLY army I can possibly see struggle whatsoever are Dwarves. They have no magic and with stormbanner the shooting will be unlikely.


Yes, that 1 single model (who costs a minimum of 165 points) can kill a HPA. If it can get in combat with the HPA, if it can cast the crucial spell without the skaven player dispelling it at all costs (without mistcasting and dying) and if he can do this every turn for 7 close combat phases - if the spell fails for any reason the Abomb would squish him like a bug. And even with the spell, the Abomb may still kill him thanks to his wacky attacks (and I'm not quite sure exactly how the spell and the unique attacks actually work together).

Never mind the fact that this hero is generally not considered worth paying 50 points to make a level 1, given that the signature spell is only useful in combat and will be dispelled (or miscast in a unit of expensive infantry) as a priority by the enemy any time it might actually be useful and given that 8th's ward-or-regen rule has made the plaguebearers much less attractive against all-comers means that this is an example of list-gearing against the A-bomb specifically. Certainly a plaguebearer bunker isn't a terrible thing and there are other things (flamers, flaming Bloodthirsters) that are good all-round and good against the HPA - but these things are not in my list, and I do fine against all other over-the-top monsters like Hydra or Dragons or the like. So yeah, I would have to specifically gear up against the HPA. My Ogres have even more trouble, there are only a handful of workable options and they're all something I wouldn't take in an all-rounder list.

Yes that 1 simple hero can do it and he is only 165pnts minimum. 85pnts cheaper then the HPA /w warpstone. In addition, that crucial spell goes off on a 3. Its not hard to get off at ALL. He alone can do it and you can always add in more things. Screamers /w flaming melee attacks attack it and there goes regen for the melee turn and bam dead HPA.

On the part about the Ward/Regen Plaguebearers yes they got a huge nerf but Nurgle happens to be my favorite theme in all honestly So whenever I play Daemons I generally have Nurgle there. Thats not tailoring at all. Its my play style. They got the nerf but I still use them because they are my favorite.



People have shown many many many examples of how to kill it and it continues to get shot down.

How dare an idea work. Its totally not rational or point affective so its useless. Or it uses magic so its unreliable. Oh shooting that stormbanner makes shooting completely useless(apparently the FaQ makes the stormbanner last forever?!) oh the HPA will make it to you in 2 turns(on average its 3) Some armies just can't CC it. Fairly sure every army has something that can CC.

Yes the HPA is more then likely undercosted. But the book is already printed its point cost is already there. The FaQ's have been done. Deal with it and find a way to stop it like all the other people who have posted how they do it.

Stumpy
24-07-2010, 01:05
Yes, people have posted how they do it and every one of them involved luck or commitment of excessive force.
I've killed aboms too, once with excessive luck and the other time with excessive force. The luck was skinks with my opponent failing all his regeneration saves (I should have done an average of 4 wounds) and the excessive force was all my magic, my cannons and my shooting infantry blasting and then charging it with a steam tank and a war altar and barely killing it. So both times my opponent trundled forward with the assumption that it was unbeatable. If they'd sent it down a different part of the table I would have been torn to shreds.

fenrisnorth
24-07-2010, 01:50
Ok, the game that prompted me to post this was a 3k point beastman versus skaven game (I was the beastmen).
A single HPA beat my army almost single handedly. After the game my opponent said, wow, that HPA did really well, next time I will be taking three of them.
Can someone please explain to my how a beastman army can take down three HPA as well as 2250 points of other skaven without relying on amazing luck?
Every solution I have seen so far simply doesn't work mathematically, involves ignoring the rest of the skaven army, making a list tailored to beat HPA, or simply saying something along the lines of "don't suck".

Hicks
24-07-2010, 02:29
Ok, the game that prompted me to post this was a 3k point beastman versus skaven game (I was the beastmen).
A single HPA beat my army almost single handedly. After the game my opponent said, wow, that HPA did really well, next time I will be taking three of them.
Can someone please explain to my how a beastman army can take down three HPA as well as 2250 points of other skaven without relying on amazing luck?
Every solution I have seen so far simply doesn't work mathematically, involves ignoring the rest of the skaven army, making a list tailored to beat HPA, or simply saying something along the lines of "don't suck".

The only solution I can see is to never play that guy if he takes 3 HPAs. I'm not saying you have to be rude, he has a right to be as cheezy and WAAC as he wants, but just tell him you prefer to spend your precious time playing friendly games. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun for you too after all.

Skyros
24-07-2010, 02:51
I am paying attention to what others are saying. You yourself have just been talking about it being undercosted and its dmg output so you shouldn't be trying to criticize me whatsoever.

I have pointed out that it has a greater damage output than every other big monster (except possibly the mountain chimera). This, in turn, means it can't be tarpitted by big blocks of cheap infantry - unlike every other big monster. This is paradigm breaking.

Other big monsters, if you can't beat them in CC, can be shot down. With the stormbanner, your chances of doing this against the HPA are very slim.

These are two enormous advantages the HPA has compared to other monsters, and I don't believe he pays nearly appropriately for these advantages regarding points. (Not too mention enemies not getting a charge reaction or having the chance to come back from the dead)

Your saying that certain armies can beat him in CC is largely irrelevant to the points I am making.

Devising scenarios were ridiculous concentrations of forces/points can bring down the HPA isn't really refuting my argument, which is, that it takes more to kill it than it should, and you can't deal with it via the usual methods of dealing with large monsters that work on all the other big monsters. The HPA is perfectly capable of wiping out entire armies by itself, whereas other monsters would get hung up on tarpit blocks of big ranked infantry.

Rogzor87
24-07-2010, 02:56
Panic it off the board. Or use the spells that do things to monsters Lore of the beast I think? Minotaurs /w GW and the flaming standard? str 7 flaming attacks should decimate anything that would ever have regen save. A giant/ghorgon/cygor can probly give it a decent beating.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-07-2010, 06:09
I stated that the HPA can be easily killed.


Which is bullocks. I mean the heaven could fall on my head, too, and reading a book isn't going to help much.

I did read my book, by the way. Heck, I even held it the right way around, just in case you wonder.


I am paying attention to what others are saying.

But you don't accept it and insinuate that everyone else is just plain stupid. We simply do not accept those examples because they have not worked and because they require a great deal of infrastructure to be put in place while the Abom is pretty point and click.

You don't accept our Point of View either but guess who becomes excited and impolite yet again because people don't agree with him?

Stumpy
24-07-2010, 07:53
Panic it off the board. Or use the spells that do things to monsters Lore of the beast I think? Minotaurs /w GW and the flaming standard? str 7 flaming attacks should decimate anything that would ever have regen save. A giant/ghorgon/cygor can probly give it a decent beating.

Panic: fair enough though difficult. You can cause panic by breaking or killing stuff within 6" of it when it isn't in combat. Yes this can work but isn't a tactic. You can't shoot apart nearby units (they're skaven, there's too many) and while you can break stuff nearby, breaking stuff in combat is very difficult. You're also looking at the unit that broke the skaven unit being immediately munched by the abom when it passes panic.
There isn't anything in lore of beasts like beast cowers anymore. Magic isn't really a good choice due to having to choose your lore at the list writing stage, can't just turn up and say 'I'm using the lore of fire.'
3 Minotaurs with great weapons and the flaming standard would have been perfect under 7th (if the skaven player was braindead enough to let you charge) and cost about the same as the abom. Under 8th if they charge the abom does 5.5 wounds average before the minotaurs get to strike. So if the skaven have done one wound with all their shooting and magic or the abom rolls 0.5 above average, you're looking at 4 attacks against the abom. This is from the ideal unit managing to charge despite frenzy, one with lots of attacks, high WS, str7 and flaming costing a similar amount.

Astafas
24-07-2010, 08:17
Stumpy you are onto something but wrong unit... Minotaurs hit hard but suck at taking the damage.

Bestigors. Great Weapons. Put a wargor or better yet a nasty minotaur in there. Give them the flaming attacks banner. You will need a fair few bodies but they will kill it and unless it rolls the 1 for what its going to do IT CANT TARGET CHARACTERS...

Same unit can pull double duty as well. Nice. Not as good as a vampire lord with red fury and the +3 attacks sword + hatred in a unit of skellies with a flaming banner but we cant all have I7 S5 and look dashing in a dinner suit with cape...

satchy
24-07-2010, 11:51
Great bray shamen with ruby ring(fireball bound) powerscroll and upped version of ambers spear, knock out the regen with the fireball (hopefully he either fails to dispell or wants to save dice to dispell you ambers spear) then use scroll and ambers spear, a bolt thrower with str 10 d6 wounds, no regen thanks to the fireball and it could kill it.

should take off say 4 wounds in total, but if you also take the hagtree fetish(reroll failed to wound rolls with spells) then its sure to die in one round

Justicar Valius
24-07-2010, 12:58
O.K, incase I ever run into a pick up game against Skaven, I should maybe shoot it with my Hellcannon? Maybe try and doom and darkness it before hand?

I don't have any flaming attacks in my army (and don't plan to tailor my army for these abominations of nature).

Anything in the WoC army that you would recomend versus this thing? Am I missing somthing? Will a level2 fire wizard be a worthwhile buy?

pkain762
24-07-2010, 13:29
@ trains get robbed.... the HPA is T6 and has one more wound than a Doom wheel.... so as far as it being the weaker rare monster, you are clearly wrong

eyescrossed
24-07-2010, 14:08
@ trains get robbed.... the HPA is T6 and has one more wound than a Doom wheel.... so as far as it being the weaker rare monster, you are clearly wrong

Toughness 5.

Lord Inquisitor
24-07-2010, 18:16
Yes that 1 simple hero can do it and he is only 165pnts minimum. 85pnts cheaper then the HPA /w warpstone. In addition, that crucial spell goes off on a 3. Its not hard to get off at ALL.
Unless of course the Skaven player dispels it. Which he's going to unless he's a dunce, he'll do whatever it takes to save enough dice to stop that spell - he'll know that the Herald is a wizard, he'll know what spell he has and he'll know this is the ONE time it will be most dangerous. And given you're casting it on a Level 1, he probably will dispel it, even if it doesn't draw out a dispel scroll just to be sure.

That's why noone buys magic levels for Nurgle Heralds. Their signature spell is only useful in combat and in cases where it's actually really game-pivotal, it gets dispelled with extreme prejudice.

And your 185 point model needs to cast this 4 turns in a row (on average) in order to kill the Hell Pit Abomination, without the Skaven player dispelling it once. If you fail to cast it, the Abom kills your Herald immediately.

Not to mention I'm not quite sure what the spell effect has on its attacks. Does it make all its attacks at S1? What about Thunderstomp, the FAQ says it is unmodified strength. Etc.

It's a pathetic solution to the HPA. You'd have to be extraordinarily lucky to get the spell off, and lucky to kill it in two combat phases too. Now, a Herald with a 20-30 strong unit of plaguebearers IS a good solution to the HPA ... but then we're talking 2-3 times the cost of the HPA.

Most armies have a potential solution. For Ogres, I can take a Tyrant with beastkiller, a unit of Ironguts with the flaming attacks banner and a BSB with the re-roll hits banner - that should do the job. But then that costs upwards of 700 points.

Which is what's so annoying about the thing. It takes vastly more points in a specific config to deal with it. A regular Tyrant + Ironguts + BSB does just fine against virtually anything but probably won't do the job and could get destroyed unless they're specifically geared up for the job.

It's still a stupid, unbalanced unit.


On the part about the Ward/Regen Plaguebearers yes they got a huge nerf but Nurgle happens to be my favorite theme in all honestly So whenever I play Daemons I generally have Nurgle there. Thats not tailoring at all. Its my play style. They got the nerf but I still use them because they are my favorite.
Well that's great but I play Slaanesh and there isn't a good solution unless I add in units from other gods.

fubukii
24-07-2010, 20:14
a unit of flamers usually downs a abom rather quickly or at least cripples it, in my past experiences :)

Now killing it before combat isnt 100% needed as if it only has 1-2 wounds left you can probably finish it off in combat.

Rogzor87
24-07-2010, 20:49
Slaanesh can manipulate its LD.

Anything tzeentch does flaming attacks so apparently going all tzeentch or taking anything tzeentch would be considered tailoring against.

Nurgle I myself make it a lvl 1 wizard and generally use that spell. yes they can keep dice to stop that 1 spell but you would have to watch out for the other wizards that would be more devastating. Yes it would make all of its attacks str1 and thunderstomp would still be str6. Not to mention Nurgle is the most resilient of the gods. It losing out on the regen does suck but they can still do it.

Khorne would be the one with the problems. All they would have are melee units. Though they are very very good melee units. Its all that they have.

Draconian77
24-07-2010, 21:16
Khorne would be the one with the problems. All they would have are melee units. Though they are very very good melee units. Its all that they have.

Now forgive me if this is wrong but don't most Khornate characters have Flaming Attacks with the Firestorm Blade gift? I would think that 3 S7 Flaming attacks (with Hatred) would put a dent into the HPA.

DrMabutu
24-07-2010, 22:10
I fought an army with two HPA today. Not fun. I did manage to kill them (At the cost of a lot of stuff).

The first died to my Red Fury Vampire Mountain Chimera (It also didn't come back to life).

The second ran into a large mob of zombies and was stuck there for two turns. I then charged it in the side with my Black Coach (Which had Flaming Sword of Ruin cast on it) and it died.

I lost the game (Mostly becase he had two doomwheels as well (At 3500pts). I also lost my general to an unfortunate round of close combat with stormvermin (I failed every save i had to take). The only upside was my Wight King killing Queek, two warlords and a plague priest (Before getting killed with his skeleton unit by doomwheels).

eyescrossed
26-07-2010, 09:56
It ain't a good sign when you think which Lore would be best against HPAs while list writing. Besides Fire, of course.

Eternus
26-07-2010, 11:04
There are only two ways really to deal with an HPA - either lots of shooting, preferably with high strength flaming, or by spending twice what the HPA is worth on a tooled up combat character or unit. If you can't shoot it, you will have to accept that spending a shed load of points is the only other way to take it out - that's all there is to it.

It's probably the only unit in the game that's a real '2 TIMES' unit - you need to spend '2 TIMES' what the thing costs to kill it, and if you don't, it could kill at least '2 TIMES' what it cost to include in the army. There is nothinig we can do about this, so just bite the bullet, spend the points and kill it, kill it good.

Then when it's dead, the hugely overpowered unit with it's overpowered Lord can proceed to smash a massive hole in the enemy army while they stand around dumbstruck and wondering how they created such a montrous unit - answer, they chose to field one.

Heimagoblin
26-07-2010, 11:11
I think any player taking a hell pit abomination needs to take a serious look at there own list aswell as the strenth of there opponents list before taking one and if taken should not be used with more than one doomwheel. I am very glad to say that there is a refreshing lack of skaven in my area so this does not happen often.

Skaven are an army I activley don't enjoy playing and they are on their own in that regard. The needless extra's like the doomwhell, the hellpit and the doom rocket I find frustrating to play against because they are so obviously overpowered and I find myself wondering what the writer was thinking of. However, the thing that really gets my goat is the amount of rules they ignore for no good reason.

That said, I would still play a skaven player because I think it is bad sport to not play with an opponent because of their army which for all I know, they could have chosen because they love ther fluff.

Eternus
26-07-2010, 11:24
Thank heaven for the 'Banner of Flaming Attacks' - at 10 points it's a must, and when combined with a half decent unit like Grave Guard with Great Weapons, or Chaos Warriors or anything with Halberds/Great Weapons really it's a good option for dealing with an HPA, especially with stepping up & supporting attacks and Regen conking out after a flaming wound for the rest of the phase - never mind putting the banner on something like heavy cavalry.

For just 10 points, we have the power. What more do you want?

Heimagoblin
26-07-2010, 11:33
White lions spring to mind

Eternus
26-07-2010, 11:52
White lions spring to mind

Perfect. Except they're Elves, so I'd be rooting for the HPA to eat them.

UDirtyRat
26-07-2010, 12:39
Does anyone see any reason to take warpstone spikes anymore ?

Unless i missed something, they just give it a 5+ ward vs magic and it already has regen... so, other than stopping a fire spell... which may be worth it... its not really doing much ?

Eternus
26-07-2010, 12:49
Does anyone see any reason to take warpstone spikes anymore ?

Unless i missed something, they just give it a 5+ ward vs magic and it already has regen... so, other than stopping a fire spell... which may be worth it... its not really doing much ?

Not meaning to give away trade secrets to the enemy, but if you're facing Vampire Counts take them. They make the HPA's attacks magical I believe, which means it can hurt Ethereal creatures. If you didn't have them, then I'd just throw a Spirit Host at it and watch it swipe ineffectually until they eventually chopped it to bits because it couldn't hurt them and it couldn't beat them on combat res without help.

Skitter-Squeek
26-07-2010, 16:25
I run a Doomwheel, HPA, and 6 rat ogres in my tourney 2k

The HPA is a hardened machine of death, but by no means is it unkillable.


It has Toughness 5 people it isn't a steamtank. One cannon shot can spell its doom not to mention since everything wounds on 6's now it is pretty much a giant pin cushion waiting to happen.

Skinks, salamanders

Brettonian archers with Braziers,

Flamers

Any dwarf shooting unit

Handgunners, cannons, outriders

Banshees

Magic

etc


I could keep going on but with the amount of flaming available through magic and items there should be no excuse. Also remember it cannot come back from the dead if you have hit it with a flaming attack the round it died. Granted taking that in a 1k game I think should be frowned upon. :wtf:


Skaven have always been and always will be an army that has so many wierd rules that they need at least a 7 page FAQ.


Squeek



Warpstone spikes are worth it for Wraiths alone, and last I find it funny that daemon players are complaining about an over powered unit...

Haravikk
26-07-2010, 17:47
Skaven: Half of Whineseer is starting an army of them because of their perceived power while the other half is perpetually complaining about their "brokenness". It's a hard time to be a Skaven player proper.
I'm starting an army of them and have absolutely no intention of taking a Hellpit Abomination, or that stupid Daemon Prince thing, neither of them are Skaven IMO as the first is just a big bad, overpowered chaos spawn, and the second is a ruddy demon! Big skittering hordes of randomly effective or blindly panicking infantry with some crazy support machines for me please!


Skitter-Squeek makes valid points though as the always wounding on 6 means that a big block of cheap shooting can take down an Abomination just fine. Peasant Bowmen are likely now the ultimate Abomination hunters with their ability to have flaming arrows if they want.

Eternus
26-07-2010, 17:55
I'm starting an army of them and have absolutely no intention of taking a Hellpit Abomination, or that stupid Daemon Prince thing, neither of them are Skaven IMO as the first is just a big bad, overpowered chaos spawn, and the second is a ruddy demon! Big skittering hordes of randomly effective or blindly panicking infantry with some crazy support machines for me please!


Skitter-Squeek makes valid points though as the always wounding on 6 means that a big block of cheap shooting can take down an Abomination just fine. Peasant Bowmen are likely now the ultimate Abomination hunters with their ability to have flaming arrows if they want.

Hey dude, as far as I'm concerned if people want to go HPA-Bell-Wheel of Doom that's fine with me - it's just a greater challenge to beat that's all. 'Cheese' a word that people use instead of saying 'Tough to beat' when they just can't figure out how to beat an extreme build, but there's always a way, you just need find it.

Unfortunately sometimes the only viable counter to an extreme build is an equally extreme build, and if every game was like that, it'd get pretty boring pretty quick.

fubukii
26-07-2010, 18:02
all str 3 and str 2 attacks have always wounded the abomination on a 6+ even in 7th edition.

Whats gonna hurt it is step up attack, and units with str4+

improved warmachines and more access to flaming attacks.

Heimagoblin
26-07-2010, 19:04
Skinks, salamanders

Salamandes will inflict 1 hit on it at str 3. Not exactly good value.

Brettonian archers with Braziers,

Hit on 5's, wound on 6's means it takes 18 shots to do a wound.
Flamers

Any dwarf shooting unit
Dwarf flaming cannons will do it, but others will not be effective.

Handgunners, cannons, outriders
Handgunners will usually hit on 5's, wound on 5's and meaning on average it takes 18 shots just to do a wound. Cannons still have to hit, wound and get past the save meaning it takes 3-4 cannon shots to do 3.5 wounds. Outriders will usually hit on 6's, wound on 5's and allow regen meaning it takes 36 shots to do a wound.
Banshees
A very specialised unit aswell as one with an 8 inch range and happening to be very expensive.Magic
Lore of fire is a bad lore and is not used oftenetc



Care to list more examples?:angel:

Skyros
26-07-2010, 19:08
Anything in the WoC army that you would recomend versus this thing?

I don't think WoC has a big problem with it because they have plenty of I5 troops with great killy power who can go before the HPA and crush it. WoC are one of the very few armies who can defeat the HPA in close combat.

Once again, no one is saying a single HPA is unkillable. We are saying that when you take two HPA, the amount of firepower/troops needed to deal with them very quickly become absurd and almost impossible for some armies that can't beat them in combat.


One cannon shot can spell its doom

One cannon shot could spell it's doom. If you failed regen and he rolled a '6' on the wounds. But statistically, you'd need 4 cannon shots: the regen save blocks 2, and the two that hit each to 3 wounds and kill the thing.

And if the opponent has the stormbanner that's eight cannon shots *that roll perfectly*. Stormbanner blocks 4, regen blocks 2, the remaining 2 roll perfectly and do 3 wounds each. Realistically you'd probably need 3 shots that got through regen/stormbanner because of the chance of a misfire/wrong bounce.

And if he has TWO HPA and the stormbanner that's sixteen cannon shots that *roll perfectly* so really more like 20 and now we can begin to see why some people think the thing is a bit much, when taken in multiples, and combined with the stormbanner.

shartmatau
26-07-2010, 20:54
why do people keep coming up with solutions that are this unit vs the HPA. In all of my years gaming a game never comes to 'I need this unit to defeat that unit.' It is always a combination of stuff, every single game with every single big nasty unit.

How come nobody it saying anything like, hit it with initiative or strength or toughness reducing Shadow spell and then hit it with anything you have available. Regen really isn't very useful when you make it roll a bunch of saves. So all you need is to make take those saves. Reduce its stats and it dies to pretty much anything. Increase your own units stats (like +1 to hit, flaming attacks, I 10 with ASF, etc). Honestly it may be hard to fight but a monster that on average isn't very fast at all should be pretty straight forward to deal with. Not necessarily easy but if your army doesn't have a means of fighting a monster then your probably going to have more problems than just seeing abominations.

Gorak
26-07-2010, 22:26
I've playe dagainst the HPA and I think you guys think too much of it, templeguard with flaming attacks owned, a master with PoK pwnd, ran it down both times. Oh and the 3rd time was lower it's I than pit of shades....

SilasOfTheLambs
26-07-2010, 22:50
Take a large unit of skirmishing skinks.

Take a skink chief BSB with the flaming banner.

POISONED FLAMING SHOTS ftw :)

DisasterMaster
26-07-2010, 22:54
Flaming blowdarts? :confused:

Well I guess that's about on par with sensibility as poisoned slings :)

Stumpy
27-07-2010, 01:01
Flaming blowpipes are a highly entertaining if generally pointless prospect :D
I fought another one of these things yesterday. Good lord, do I hate them. Ran forward, didn't care that there was an army in the way, came out the other side. No tactics involved, it didn't have to.

DDogwood
27-07-2010, 03:02
Flaming blowdarts? :confused:

Well I guess that's about on par with sensibility as poisoned slings :)

Use some imagination. Obviously the darts contain an alchemical compound that bursts into flames on contact with blood.

And poisoned sling shots are just tiny clay pots filled with poison.

In a game where there are whole armies of walking dead it isn't hard to come up with this stuff.

Gorak
27-07-2010, 03:26
or ratmen or lizardmen or imortals in magic armour, whfb is all about over the top fantasy you want realistic go play flames of war or a historical game.


Back on topic, HPA is very easily delt with by any anti monster tactic, as most top tiers have a scary monster hydras,vargulfs ect. you shouldn't complain about one for skaven as it's very easialy delt with and by far the most random of all the monster choices.

Skyros
27-07-2010, 03:57
why do people keep coming up with solutions that are this unit vs the HPA. ....hit it with anything you have available.

Because saying 'hit it with everything you've got' is not anything even resembling a tactic and not worth the time it takes to type out.

People are looking for ***COST EFFECTIVE*** HPA counters. The enemy has spent a certain amount of points on his HPA. If it takes your entire army to counter it, the rest of his army is going to rip you to shreds. You need a way to counter the HPA for a similar points value over a certain amount of time, or you are at a steep disadvantage on the rest of the field.

That's why people want to know what roughly equivalently costed units they can use to stop the HPA. It's pretty basic, really, and shouldn't need to be stated in a tactics thread. It no doubt feels very flufffy and role play ish to shout out "Give him all you've got!" as you start shooting stuff at the HPA but that's not necessarily an effective tactic :) Fun though!

Skyros
27-07-2010, 03:58
Back on topic, HPA is very easily delt with by any anti monster tactic, as most top tiers have a scary monster hydras,vargulfs ect.

This is actually not corect. Please refer to the previous posts in the thread in which it is pointed out the *multiple* ways in which the HPA is paradigm breaking as far as big monsters are concerned. Several tactics for dealing with big monsters simply do not work on the HPA - hence the reason this thread exists.

If he really was just another vargulf or griffon, this thread wouldn't exist, because people could just use the standard anti monster tactics on him.

Stumpy
27-07-2010, 07:47
Back on topic, HPA is -cannot be- delt with by any anti monster tactic, as most top tiers have a scary monster hydras,vargulfs ect. you shouldn't complain about one for skaven as it's very -difficult- delt with and by far the most -powerful- of all the monster choices.

Fixed it for ya ;)
Yeah, not a useful post but neither was yours. We've been over almost every anti-monster tactic and we've so far come up with 'bring lots of high str flaming stuff for cheap' as the way to kill it.
Everything else the HPAs defenders have come up with are absurdly expensive or require a specifically tailored unit.
Or require pure dumb luck, as the 'shoot it down' argument goes* when we point out the mathammer odds of it working.

*please note this is valid for dwarves, daemons and bretts who can have strong flaming shooting choices for cheap.

Eternus
27-07-2010, 08:03
The HPA is a difficult prospect for two reasons - first is the sheer amount of damage it can inflict, between Impact Hits, it's random wierdo attacks, and then the Thunderstomp, the second, and more important reason is that it can move in any direction at around 10" per turn - you can't bait it or outmaneouver it, and it's hard to panic it when it's Stubborn Ld8 and the Warlord and BSB are nearby.

I think that striking in I order is what will hurt this thing the most in 8th, because lots of things will get to hit it before it hits them, so it's maneouverbility and potential speed are not so much of a concern now, and if you try and make sure that it's only options for combat are units that can dish out some hurt then it becomes far less of a threat. If you can include something that can shoot it when it's not in combat then you have all the bases covered as well. Always Charge it if you can and avoid those Impact Hits - little things like this will always make a difference.

Oh yeah, one last thing - Skyros, thanks for the lesson in shooting probability. If the Storm Banner would have that much of an effect on your ability to shoot down the HPA, how about shooting the BSB first? Cannons can be deadly accurate, and if you have a couple available, then he'll fail a Look Out Sir! roll soon enough.

Flash Felix
27-07-2010, 10:00
Fixed it for ya ;)

*please note this is valid for dwarves, daemons and bretts who can have strong flaming shooting choices for cheap.

I think you're being far too kind Stumpy, as those cheap, strong, flaming, shooting choices run smack-bang into the brick wall that is the Storm Banner and Howling Warpgale. TLoS makes it harder to hide the HPA as it comes at you, but all the Skaven need are a couple of turns and it can then hide in combat.

But we've been over this before, many, many times. So either people will believe that the HPA is too hard to beat for its points, or they won't. Kind of like convincing Dark Elf players that the Ring of Hotek was just a little too good for 25 points (thank god for the FAQ).

Eternus
27-07-2010, 10:12
I think you're being far too kind Stumpy, as those cheap, strong, flaming, shooting choices run smack-bang into the brick wall that is the Storm Banner and Howling Warpgale. TLoS makes it harder to hide the HPA as it comes at you, but all the Skaven need are a couple of turns and it can then hide in combat.

But we've been over this before, many, many times. So either people will believe that the HPA is too hard to beat for its points, or they won't. Kind of like convincing Dark Elf players that the Ring of Hotek was just a little too good for 25 points (thank god for the FAQ).

There's only one cost effective way of dealing with the HPA. 152 points buys you 35 Zombies. 5 wide, 7 deep, with a Standard for +1 Combat Res and a Musician for those draws. The Zombies are packing Static Combat Res of 5 before the HPA even hits anything and you can just top them up with an Invocation or two each turn. It'll probably be 2 combats before they even start to lose rank bonus.

Shame if it breaks all they can do is hit it with a load of strength 2 fisticuffs.

eyescrossed
27-07-2010, 11:06
There's only one cost effective way of dealing with the HPA. 152 points buys you 35 Zombies. 5 wide, 7 deep, with a Standard for +1 Combat Res and a Musician for those draws. The Zombies are packing Static Combat Res of 5 before the HPA even hits anything and you can just top them up with an Invocation or two each turn. It'll probably be 2 combats before they even start to lose rank bonus.

Shame if it breaks all they can do is hit it with a load of strength 2 fisticuffs.

The problem is getting those Zombies into contact with the HPA.

Eternus
27-07-2010, 11:47
Ok, in order to distract people who may otherwise cause each other web-bruises, how about we go for broke and say how would you deal with.....

......3 HELL PIT ABOMINATIONS!!!

Now, is it even viable to take 3 HPA's? If yes, what the hell can we non-mutant rat creatures of dooooom do about it?

Pravus
27-07-2010, 11:48
Moving swiftly on from the growing conflagration above, the only real problem i have with the Abomination is its flipping "come back to life" rule. Just die already like everything else in the blinking flip game. Its like Jason frickin' Myers!

(Game on Eternus!) In answer to you question I would have to consider the possibility of a domino panic effect. Three of them would either be spread across the army or concentrated somewhere but probably in the vicinity of something eminently more killable. In any case against Skaven in general I'd be looking to take out the general/BSB as soon as possible to reduce their resilience to morale shocks. The real trick is fending them off until you can make them more fragile.

Playing Dark Elves though i could always stick three Hydras on the board and have a monster throw down - save the breath weapons for the first round of combat. Does that make me as bad as "them"?

Eternus
27-07-2010, 11:51
Moving swiftly on from the growing conflagration above, the only real problem i have with the Abomination is its flipping "come back to life" rule. Just die already like everything else in the blinking flip game. Its like Jason frickin' Myers!

Kinda reminds me of Comedy Vlad - given that Vlad was, and should have been, the greatest and most powerful of the Sylvanian Vampire Counts, he didn't half die easily, and often! The way the fluff tells it, without his ring he was about as dangerous as a 'wickle puppy dog'. I'm a Vlad fan, so I hate that! I bet he could stomp an HPA or 3...........!?!

And Pravus - cheers dude. 3 HPA's - bring it!

Odin
27-07-2010, 12:03
Every army has access to fireball and a flaming banner now, meaning even beastmen and ogres can deal with it. It also now charges about the same as ranked infantry. The 360 degree charge is awesome, but it's not fast anymore.

Yup, flaming banner on a decent enough combat unit is pretty much all you need. Most of my new army lists include this banner for taking on regenerating and flammable enemies.

shartmatau
27-07-2010, 12:04
Because saying 'hit it with everything you've got' is not anything even resembling a tactic and not worth the time it takes to type out.

People are looking for ***COST EFFECTIVE*** HPA counters. The enemy has spent a certain amount of points on his HPA. If it takes your entire army to counter it, the rest of his army is going to rip you to shreds. You need a way to counter the HPA for a similar points value over a certain amount of time, or you are at a steep disadvantage on the rest of the field.

That's why people want to know what roughly equivalently costed units they can use to stop the HPA. It's pretty basic, really, and shouldn't need to be stated in a tactics thread. It no doubt feels very flufffy and role play ish to shout out "Give him all you've got!" as you start shooting stuff at the HPA but that's not necessarily an effective tactic :) Fun though!

That fine for discussion's sake but frankly playing the game doesnt work that way. 'Hit it with everything you have available' is just another way of saying concentrated fire, which in fact is a tactic and one that should be used against any and all monsters.

If your looking for a unit that point for point is going to beat the HPA then I say your looking for the wrong thing. What you want is to actually think of tactics not army lists, something that rarely happens anymore. For example, hit it with a fire spell then hit it with any other magic missile. Or one of my favorites for any monster is using the shadow spell to reduce its toughness, then hit it with a weapon that requires toughness test or death (a few of those are available in different army books). anyways, i need to go to work. My humble advice is to stop thinking of unit v unit, its not how the game actually plays.

Anardakil
27-07-2010, 13:35
I'll probably use the flaming banner on a unit of 12 (or maybe more) glade guards (works with crossbowmen and other stuff too of course) to wound it and remove the regen, and then concentrated fire from other non flaming shooting to bring it down.

The flaming banner is cheap so I don't see how you couldn't put it in any all comers list you want. :)

Ideally you'd want to finish it off with flaming attacks too 'cause it can't get back up in that case.

HD300
27-07-2010, 14:11
I think Fire needs to be looked at as a top tier lore. Fire will drop units pretty hard, and slinging 3d6 str4 magic missile will drop the thing in a couple turns, or make it soft enough in one for a unit to finish it off.

I know I plan to take a wizard with Fire, I'm willing to take the hit to my ability to snipe characters and pop warmachines to demolish scary blocks of infantry and HPAs/Hydras.

SilasOfTheLambs
27-07-2010, 23:48
HD, I think lore of light is actually a better choice vs HPA, given that it has the option to deal s6 hits rather than s4. Burning gaze is a flaming attack.

Alternatively, there's the lore of heavens spell that gives it -1 to hit and also nerfs its leadership. Against anything tough enough to survive its attacks at reduced effectiveness, if you win combat it's probably all over.

Stumpy
28-07-2010, 00:56
Only one of its random attacks rolls to hit though.
The reason we don't jam in the flaming banner is because a lot of armies simply can't take magic standards on their normal troops.

The ruby ring of ruin could be a life saver, just noticed that one :D

HD300
28-07-2010, 03:49
HD, I think lore of light is actually a better choice vs HPA, given that it has the option to deal s6 hits rather than s4. Burning gaze is a flaming attack.

Alternatively, there's the lore of heavens spell that gives it -1 to hit and also nerfs its leadership. Against anything tough enough to survive its attacks at reduced effectiveness, if you win combat it's probably all over.

So you're going to get 2.31 wounds on average with Gaze. (I hope I'm not failing at math right now).

With Fireball you get 3.66. Fire also has other flaming stuff to let loose, and is better against a wide variety of opponents.

Gorak
28-07-2010, 04:51
Ok I have to point out once again I play DE and hyrdas are by far better than HPA, It' so rnd, take away impact hit run it down and to my knowlage it don't pop back up! LIek anything with impact hits you do not want it to charge you, so fast hard hitters. godzilla battles ect. Ok 3 HPA? now we're talkiong 3k plus, soooo From my perpective DE, LM

1) Lore of shadows, lower I than pit of shades, sick combo easy to get off.( use smaller pit o shades as it scatters only 1d6)

2) Lord on a Dragon, PoK,dragon egg,sword of might,heavy armour,shield sea dragon cloak( should kil HPA in one round of comabt with bearth wpns ect, this isn't factoring in you screwing with it with lore of shadows)

3) assassin with toughness sword.(this is bit situational but if you play against alot of monsters it might be worthwhile)

4) a butload of reapter crossbow fire combined with lore of shadows(without it's kinda usless)

5) 3 hydras, yea I know but pound for pound hydras are much more cost effective than HPA(note it's a d!ck-head move but so is 3 HPA)

OK theres 5 for DE all cost effective and 4 are good against all commers.

LIzardmen

1) two slann with temple guard, one lore of shadows one lore of life, sick combos for HPA death here

2) 9 salamanders, 6's to wound but d3 wounds and panic test for any wounds

3) skinks, alot of poisioned attacks will take it down.

I'm new to lizardmen so some of these might not be soild, furthermroe all the options are good against all commers.

Now I've yet to see HPA win a game in my gamming group, but it could be that I know how to deal with monsters and have inbuilt tactics, like out manouvering slaughtering the rest of the army first. HPA is like any of the monsters, it's more rnd and mayhaps a bit more powerful but requires some good rolls from your oppent. I find if you calm down and hanndle it a coolhead you should be able to beat it. DOn't cry cheese and say it's impossible cause nothing is impossible!

Lord Solar Plexus
28-07-2010, 05:33
Ideally you'd want to finish it off with flaming attacks too 'cause it can't get back up in that case.

As soon as it takes even a single wound from a flaming attack it cannot come back - it doesn't have to be the last one.

Stumpy
28-07-2010, 06:01
Gorak, your dark elf choices are decent (though do rely on kitting and spells actually going off).
The lizardmen ones, not really. You need to get 36 skinks within 6" of the hellpit to bring it down on average. The loss of large target bonus hampers poison quite a lot.
Slann, ok as those are decent lores anyway.
Salamanders don't do D3 wounds, that's warpfire throwers. Firing 675 points worth of salamanders at a hellpit in the hope of rolling a 6 for 1 wound is a terrible investment, never mind how much carnage they would reap on the rest of the skaven if you pointed them that way..

Eternus
28-07-2010, 08:04
Now I've yet to see HPA win a game in my gamming group

I've seen it twice, but I guess this is because the only Skaven player in group is pretty new to our club and so none of us have had a chance to play against the Abomination before. I've since worked out a variety of possible counters since my game against it.

It's just a case of knowing what it's capable of and what weaknesses it may have, few though they are.

HD300
28-07-2010, 12:03
Ok I have to point out once again I play DE and hyrdas are by far better than HPA, It' so rnd, take away impact hit run it down and to my knowlage it don't pop back up! LIek anything with impact hits you do not want it to charge you, so fast hard hitters. godzilla battles ect. Ok 3 HPA? now we're talkiong 3k plus, soooo From my perpective DE, LM

1) Lore of shadows, lower I than pit of shades, sick combo easy to get off.( use smaller pit o shades as it scatters only 1d6)

2) Lord on a Dragon, PoK,dragon egg,sword of might,heavy armour,shield sea dragon cloak( should kil HPA in one round of comabt with bearth wpns ect, this isn't factoring in you screwing with it with lore of shadows)

3) assassin with toughness sword.(this is bit situational but if you play against alot of monsters it might be worthwhile)

4) a butload of reapter crossbow fire combined with lore of shadows(without it's kinda usless)

5) 3 hydras, yea I know but pound for pound hydras are much more cost effective than HPA(note it's a d!ck-head move but so is 3 HPA)

OK theres 5 for DE all cost effective and 4 are good against all commers.

LIzardmen

1) two slann with temple guard, one lore of shadows one lore of life, sick combos for HPA death here

2) 9 salamanders, 6's to wound but d3 wounds and panic test for any wounds

3) skinks, alot of poisioned attacks will take it down.

I'm new to lizardmen so some of these might not be soild, furthermroe all the options are good against all commers.

Now I've yet to see HPA win a game in my gamming group, but it could be that I know how to deal with monsters and have inbuilt tactics, like out manouvering slaughtering the rest of the army first. HPA is like any of the monsters, it's more rnd and mayhaps a bit more powerful but requires some good rolls from your oppent. I find if you calm down and hanndle it a coolhead you should be able to beat it. DOn't cry cheese and say it's impossible cause nothing is impossible!

You're really expecting to get off way too much predictable magic. You will not reliably be casting your "combo" spells every turn, it's that simple. Your opponent will dispel at least one, then your plans will fall through. I'm not saying you won't get off two spells a turn, I'm saying you most likely won't be able to complete your double spell combos as it's easy to see and they usually have enough dice to cockblock one spell.

Your Dark Elf Lord only does 3.65 wounds as far as I can tell in a a combat WITH egg, then you're just doing 1.5 wounds on average after that (Not counting regen). In other words you get your hopes up with your first round but he starts getting regen and then you're wondering what happened. Supported by a unit this is good, though.

If you want to spend that many points on an assassin, fine by me - Realistically you would NEVER take that in an all comers list.

You should be able to pour your RXB shots into it once you drop a Toughness debuff spell, but then the rest of his army will school you. Matching it with a Hydra really is your best bet.


Already addressed your "sick combos" at the beginning.

That's 675 points of Salamanders that should be tearing apart his infantry, not wasting time on the HPA. They also don't do D3 wounds. -One of the most impractical strategies I've seen yet in this thread.

In regards to Skinks, a lot of anything will take it down. A good bet though is a skink+krox unit clocking in at around 300 points assisted by the HIT of a Salamander breath or Lore of Fire spell beforehand. It'll do on average 3.5 wounds to the thing if you can strip its regen. Depending on how you cost the assistance of a spell, this could be unfeasible, but I still think it's a relatively solid tactic.

Next up is just straight up lore of fire. You can drop the HPA in two turns pretty easily, one depending on how well your magic phase goes. If luck doesn't go your away the big thing will be severely cripped.

Again, roughly a 300-400 point option that is able to kill it with relative ease and still have more than enough time to get its points back on the rest of the army.


That's pretty much the best Lizards can do. Not saying it's very cost effective, but it isn't horrible. I thought an Oldblood on a Carnosaur set up right would be able to chew through a couple but clearly I was being ignorant.

For 251 I can get a Saurus Oldblood with

Burning Blade of Chotec
Shield
Glittering Scales
Aura of Quetzl
The Tricksters Shard (Or whatever it's called)

Standard Oldblood setup for me, you hit him on 6s, he hits you on 3s, wounds the HPA on 4s and makes you reroll successful wards (If you have one, HPA doesn't but I'm not building this guy just for him).

He will kill the HPA on average in 4 rounds of combat doing 1.65 wounds per combat phase, and this gives him a little leeway.

HPA does on average .77 wounds per combat phase to him with Flailing Fists.

Copy pasting Stumpy's Feed/Avalanche numbers from below.

Feed: 1.33 wounds
Avalanche: 3.26 wounds

You really have to park this guy in a unit for it to work, but that seems to be the norm. Thunder Stomp makes this one tough cookie. A 19 man Saurus unit is 233 points with full command, a bit on the pricey side and brings this up to the standard, "You need double the points to of the HPA to kill it" theory. It really is an insane unit that can do FAR too much for its points, but there's nothing we can really do about it.

What we can do is try to find the most effective ways of doing it without gimping our army, or dedicated too much. I believe I outlined a few ways for Lizards to do this, at least.