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soots
12-07-2010, 06:27
I think this edition of warhammer is totally wrecked by magic. Its way way too overboard. Here is the "I win" button I can take in.

- Level 4 mage with megadeath spell (purple sun/pit of shades/dweller below) + power scroll + 6 dice.

Whats so special about the above is its VERY high chance to get your spell and to cast irresistable force.

He will probably lose a wound and get his ass whoopped, but in return he will undoubtedly do way more damage and probably win you the game.

I see tournies banning the power scroll or the megadeath spells (both is probably a step in the right direction)

discuss!

jaxom
12-07-2010, 06:34
Infernal Puppet with Black Tongue.

MR3 on a unit which already has a 5+ Ward.

Losing turn 1 to an army with 4 cannons or a sniper or a decent caster with Death Magic.

It's not an "I win" button by any stretch of the imagination. What it *is* is a "Who is the RNG going to make win today?" button. I'd certainly argue that all of the above builds put a large number of points, often as much as 25% or your army, on the hook on a single roll of the dice which I don't think is all that much better. But it is certainly not decided.

Memnos
12-07-2010, 07:07
You don't happen to be from Staines, eh? ;)(If not, then the rest of this post might not make sense. Given the game yesterday, however, I suspect that you might be).

If so, I want to say we did the hand weapon and shield bonus wrong: The ward save can always be taken. I just checked. You should have had a whole lot more 6+ ward saves than you did.

As for the death magic, you're right: Those are specifically designed to wipe out characters. I was impressed that, in a single turn, a level 2 wizard killed a battle standard and a Lord who tragically entered within 12 inches of a Wizard who happened to have 2 death spells that can snipe thanks to a timely intervention by a Nehekaran Sphinx.

There are a few ways you can deal with that:

1) Hordes - Death magic is tragically poor at dealing with hordes. All of their magic is focused on a few hexes with only one spell(The Purple Sun) being able to deal with hordes. This is why I had to abandon the building I'd garrisoned to chase after you. I literally had no way of dealing with your unit except a single massive spell.

2) Anti-magic - WoC have great anti-magic. They can kill a wizard pretty easily. Other people: The Empire can steal magic spells, the Hellheart of Ogres can make all the difference as a single phase is completely nerfed and high elves can walk away with +6 to dispel rolls.

3) Snipers/Assassins - Tomb Kings can use Tomb Scorpions to eliminate a lot of Wizards. Skaven can use Gutter Runners. Empire can use the standard Grand Theogonist, mounted on the Holy Chariot of Doom and swapping stats to guarantee that, eventually, he's going to kill the Wizard.

Depending on your army, there are a lot of ways of dealing with magic. One thing you can't do, however, is ignore it. You have to have a plan - It's hard to do on low points values, admittedly, but it's something you have to consider.

Frosty_TK
12-07-2010, 07:14
Or maybe, just maybe, not building an uber unit of doom that can be destroyed by a single spell might be a viable path of conduct under these circumstances? Field several more or less equal units, and loosing one won't cost you the game, while loosing the mage lord to the loss of control may equal things out.

Xarren
12-07-2010, 07:54
...- Level 4 mage with megadeath spell (purple sun/pit of shades/dweller below) + power scroll + 6 dice....

I'm surprised to see this on here. A friend and I wanted to test out the 8th edition magic and I took something close to this. I took only a lvl 3 wizard with the power scroll and rolled The Purple Sun of Xereus, Doom & Darkness, and I traded the 3rd for the Signature from the lore of death.

My 1st turn (after his 1st turn) I had 8 (4 & 4) power dice and my opponent got 4 dispel. We both channeled getting nothing extra. I used 6 and the scroll 1st turn against his Orc & Gobbos and sure enough it went off with double 4's. I rolled a 7 for the miscast and had to loose some power dice from my two I had left but nothing else bad happened to me since my wizard wasn't in a unit.

Now onto the damage wrecked by the spell. Due to a lucky artillery roll (10) the template went 30 inches stopping right on one unit of orcs and passing over 2 units of goblins. I think I hit something else like trolls or spiders but can't remember due to the number of gobbos that died.

Since it stopped on the orcs the template has to continue moving over them. That one round of killing gave me enough kills to get my power dice pool to 12. I then cast the Doom & Darkness on one of the goblin units and it went off because my opponent failed to dispel it. This meant on turn 2 he quit since he had one gobbo unit and the orc unit fleeing from 25%. Plus something else dead 100%, but like I said it was something small (like 4-6 models i think).

So we both decided that we would play a rematch next weekend where we could try to find a fix to this. Now I didn't do this to him just because, we both talked about how magic was bad in 8th and tried to find out how bad. It's just that what I had was worse than his.

I will try to post another reply next weekend with the results then.

Xarren

Ovassilias
12-07-2010, 08:41
I have to aggree that although magic is kinda random, u can actually plan to have enough PD in one phase (generally the first) to roll enough PD to make those spells u mentioned with iressistable or with a really high casting value.

A lvl4 wizard with either 5 spells or knowing all the lore, power scroll and on another wizard forbidden rod u can have enough PD for first round mega spell wiping death stars,Lords and basically anything u want out of the game.

Also, unless u roll 2-4 and 10-12 on the miscast table nothing really bad happens to the wizard who just won the game for u round one. Loosing one wound, which u can roll a ward or regen save, its not really a gamble when u destroy half of your opponents army with one spell.

So yea, IWIN button is deffinatelly here.

diggerydoom
12-07-2010, 10:01
The max number of dice for any one spell is 6- including power stones etc.

MasterSparks
12-07-2010, 10:11
Speaking as a VC player, there is definately an increased amount of "I Win!"-buttons in the new edition. Both the Final Transmutation from the lore of metal and The Dwellers Below from the lore of life will kill your army general on a roll of '6' if the spell goes through.

Be prepared for an increase in turn 1 & 2 losses~

Dutch_Digger
12-07-2010, 10:21
I could be wrong here, but i think you did the spell workout and miscast in the wrong order, making more dice than allowed.
Since you work out the spell first, youd have up to 12 dice and after that the miscast would start removing power dice.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2010, 10:24
I'm a bit on the fence on the big magic spells. Apart from a chance to not get the one you want, it isn't certain that you will hit your intended target or that a vortex travels over every single enemy unit. More importantly, even if it does kill a valuable unit, certain rolls on the damage table could see you losing your wizard - and your opponent subsequently dominating the magic phase for the loss of one block.

PeG
12-07-2010, 11:25
For the armies that also benefits from 8th ed due to other reasons such as access to cheap characters and units this might not be a big problem but for the more elite types of armies it definitely is.

Loosing a greater daemon or any large block of daemons will cost a huge number of points and maybe the game since daemons already have been nerfed for other reasons. So will losing that HE dragon, big block of WE eternal guards etc.

In combination with the fact that several scenrios allow turn 1 charges it makes that roll to determine who is going first actually deciding the game.

If I go first I can either cast my mega spell and wipe out his most expensive unit (or blow myself up), I can also snipe his characters with cannons, death magic etc and finally I might be able to charge him thereby killing his wizards in close combat to ensure that I will ahve magic superiority also in the future.

Although I like an element of randomness in warhammer ( in contrast to chess) it is getting to be a bit much.

explorator
12-07-2010, 11:28
Speaking as a VC player, there is definately an increased amount of "I Win!"-buttons in the new edition. Both the Final Transmutation from the lore of metal and The Dwellers Below from the lore of life will kill your army general on a roll of '6' if the spell goes through.

Be prepared for an increase in turn 1 & 2 losses~

Your character would get a Look out Sir! roll in this case correct? If so, then pfffft.

Memnos
12-07-2010, 11:35
Your character would get a Look out Sir! roll in this case correct? If so, then pfffft.

Lore of Death spells specifically target characters - Even characters in units. They only affect one model and thus don't get 'look out, sir' rolls.

In the game I played, we had a Nehekaran Sphinx rolled up on the random terrain table. I decided to risk it with my 2nd level Bray-Shaman. I passed the initiative check, then rolled the Loremaster - Death skill and proceeded to kill his characters with the sniping spells. In one turn, I killed both a Lord and a Battle Standard.

SeaSwift
12-07-2010, 11:40
@ OP - It is actually only a 1-(625/1296) chance of getting the Purple Sun with your set-up (that's just over half for normal people). Not an I-win button at all. If you actually get it off in a game, then yes, that's not too good.

However, you have to get 2 6s with 6 dice, which statistically is only fairly likely to happen (6(1-(3125/7776)) or nearly 0.6 if my maths is right). (Don't know what Power Scroll does though, that could change odds quite a bit.)

Therefore, actually getting that spell off in game is unlikely (just over 0.3). I agree with jaxom though, a game changing spell, while fluffy, isn't as fun.

the Goat
12-07-2010, 11:44
Gaining extra power dice for any wounds caused by Purple Sun of Xereus seems incredibly powerful. He can use a ton of dice to cast purple sun which kills a whole lot of the other army. Then he suddenly has even more power dice to use on his other spells.

MasterSparks
12-07-2010, 12:05
Your character would get a Look out Sir! roll in this case correct? If so, then pfffft.

After how it is worded in the new rulebook, a "Look Out Sir!" roll can only be taken against shooting attacks that do not use the normal rules for targeting (templates, as is specifically mentioned). The two earlier named spells are not shooting attacks, and neither do they use templates.

All it takes is a single '6', and to that it is I who say pfffft. :wtf:

Please prove me wrong if you can. It would help towards increasing the playability for me.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2010, 14:01
If you roll a single 6, I can try to dispell. I very much assume that it takes more than a single 6 and you've skipped the other premises for dramatic effect.

If you are afraid to lose your most important character to magic, get him some MR.



Loosing a greater daemon or any large block of daemons will cost a huge number of points and maybe the game since daemons already have been nerfed for other reasons. So will losing that HE dragon, big block of WE eternal guards etc.


Yes, that is a drawback of making a deathstar. Daemons and Elves will have to take this into account just as much as everybody else.



In combination with the fact that several scenrios allow turn 1 charges it makes that roll to determine who is going first actually deciding the game.


Nobody has to deploy on the very front edge of his DZ and baiting and fleeing is still alive.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2010, 14:17
In the game I played, we had a Nehekaran Sphinx rolled up on the random terrain table. I decided to risk it with my 2nd level Bray-Shaman. I passed the initiative check, then rolled the Loremaster - Death skill and proceeded to kill his characters with the sniping spells. In one turn, I killed both a Lord and a Battle Standard.

That is most anecdotal. What happens if you roll a wood instead of a Sphinx? What if you don't get Loremaster, or get it on a non-wizard? Where did you get all the necessary dice from, why wasn't one spell at least banned/scrolled?

Spirit Leech, Caress and Fate all have quite a short range and even the basic spell is relatively difficult to cast, especially the improved version. Caress and Fate usually result in 3 hits against the weaker characters that then have to wound and can be negated by MR/wards/regen. Go ahead, throw all your dice at it. What have you accomplished if you don't roll IF, which apart from Teclis and some such is not very reliable on 6d6? What if your sorcerer dies or loses his abilities?

It's such a risky move, so many pieces have to fall into place, you cannot base a plan on it.

Memnos
12-07-2010, 14:20
In this particular case, it was a 500 point battle for our builder campaign.

It did come down to pure luck, but it doesn't change the fact that 3 successfully cast spells in a single round won me the game. Admittedly, a single charge with a large enough unit to negate his ranks could also have won me the game more handily, it doesn't change the fact that Lore of Death can pretty handily assassinate characters.

I even think it's a good thing. Ubercharacters shouldn't rule the day.


That is most anecdotal. What happens if you roll a wood instead of a Sphinx? What if you don't get Loremaster, or get it on a non-wizard? Where did you get all the necessary dice from, why wasn't one spell at least banned/scrolled?

Spirit Leech, Caress and Fate all have quite a short range and even the basic spell is relatively difficult to cast, especially the improved version. Caress and Fate usually result in 3 hits against the weaker characters that then have to wound and can be negated by MR/wards/regen. Go ahead, throw all your dice at it. What have you accomplished if you don't roll IF, which apart from Teclis and some such is not very reliable on 6d6? What if your sorcerer dies or loses his abilities?

It's such a risky move, so many pieces have to fall into place, you cannot base a plan on it.

Skyros
12-07-2010, 14:29
Speaking as a VC player, there is definately an increased amount of "I Win!"-buttons in the new edition. Both the Final Transmutation from the lore of metal and The Dwellers Below from the lore of life will kill your army general on a roll of '6' if the spell goes through.

Be prepared for an increase in turn 1 & 2 losses~

You should get a look out sir roll against both spells, should you not? Magic wounds are, per the BRB, allocated as shooting wounds, against which people get look out sir rolls.

Magic resistance isn't a very good counter since that only works on certain spells, and typically not the ones that have you just pick up the model.

Also, I'm confused on whether you can have a max of 12 PD or just 12 PD at any one time.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 14:39
Not sure why but people keep mixing power scrolls with power stones, I guess they just don't know what a power scroll is.

It is a one use book of hoeth. 6 spells with a power scroll means an almost guaranteed IF, it is almost impossible not to get IF with 6 spells.

You would have to roll exactly 1,2,3,4,5,6 with your dice to not get the IF (try it, roll 6 dice 20 times, I bet all 20 result in IF! with a power scroll)

That is what people don't like. You go to a tournament with your basic lv4, lv2 combo, opponent gets first turn, casts dwellers below on your s3 mage and on a 4+ you lose your mage.

It has nothing to do with being in a deathstar, he could be in a unit of 10 archers, the mage is what their after. If it happens to be in a large unit, well then even more die, but its the 50% chance of a S3 wizard dieing with no option to scroll, attempt dispel etc that people are not happy with. The spell has a 24" range, add to that an average 8" march, you would have to start at least 33" away to be out of range of the spell on turn 1. (in which case it is cast on turn 2)

Purple sun and pit of shades are templates so allow LOS rolls but the dwellors below does not, nor does it care if you have a 2+ ward vs magic, it ignores that also, just like the purple sun and pit of shades ignore them.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 14:40
You should get a look out sir roll against both spells, should you not? Magic wounds are, per the BRB, allocated as shooting wounds, against which people get look out sir rolls.

Magic resistance isn't a very good counter since that only works on certain spells, and typically not the ones that have you just pick up the model.

Also, I'm confused on whether you can have a max of 12 PD or just 12 PD at any one time.

Any one time, book says so clearly, lizardmen faq even clarifies how it works with the slanns Focus of rumination.

explorator
12-07-2010, 14:46
After how it is worded in the new rulebook, a "Look Out Sir!" roll can only be taken against shooting attacks that do not use the normal rules for targeting (templates, as is specifically mentioned). The two earlier named spells are not shooting attacks, and neither do they use templates.

All it takes is a single '6', and to that it is I who say pfffft. :wtf:

Please prove me wrong if you can. It would help towards increasing the playability for me.

I did say "if" :) Why does everything have to be about proving who is right and who is wrong? :wtf:

Yeah, these spells are devastating. I guess no "Look out Sir!" roll since it is not shooting, and MR will not work because that only improves your save against Magic Missiles and Direct Damage spells, and both Final Trans. and Dweller Bellow specify that the model is not allowed a save of any kind.

So all I have to do against VC is take two mages (so I can make sure to get the spell), get my wizard into range, and cast the spell without you dispelling, and then roll a 6 to kill the general. Powerful, yes, but not really an "I win" button.

Also, while VC are especially vulnerable to getting their general ganked, they also have easy access to Final Trans, so they could play the same game. Who can get the spell off first? Can they survive the Loss of Control if they get IF? You did take a scroll in case they do not get IF correct? Vampire Counts, as well as other armies, have ways of killing off enemy spellcasters; doing so should be a high priority.

SeaSwift
12-07-2010, 14:52
In this particular case, it was a 500 point battle for our builder campaign.

It did come down to pure luck, but it doesn't change the fact that 3 successfully cast spells in a single round won me the game. Admittedly, a single charge with a large enough unit to negate his ranks could also have won me the game more handily, it doesn't change the fact that Lore of Death can pretty handily assassinate characters.

I even think it's a good thing. Ubercharacters shouldn't rule the day.

Winning with one unit of Skavenslaves vs an entire army is possible, and does come down to pure luck. But it doesn't change the fact that lots of 6s on your part in the right places and all 1s on your opponent's rolls in the right places in a couple of rounds can win you a game. Admittedly, it is highly unlikely and complete nonsense as anecdotal evidence, it doesn't change the fact that Skavenslaves can pretty handily wipe out entire armies.

;)

hungry hungry hormagaunt
12-07-2010, 15:07
Grey Seer. Sack of warpstone tokens. Power Scroll. Dreaded Thirteenth Spell.

What makes this combo better than the usual Purple Sun or Comet of Cassandora or whatever is that you can exchange any spell for the Dreaded Thirteenth at the start of the game.

MasterSparks
12-07-2010, 15:12
If you roll a single 6, I can try to dispell. I very much assume that it takes more than a single 6 and you've skipped the other premises for dramatic effect.


Well of course, the spell would have to be cast successfully before that magical '6' can make its appearance and ruin the fun. However, the process of losing my army general to one of those spells (Successful Cast (IF?) -> Roll of '6') is a lot shorter, with much fewer statistical anomalies along the way than, say, a cannon ball (Line of Sight -> No Misfiring -> Successful Bounce -> "Look Out Sir!" roll failed -> 2+ to wound -> 4+ ward save -> 3+ wounds caused on a roll of D6). The latter I can take in my stride - you've gotta appreciate the weird and wonderful things that can creep up when dice are involved - but the former, not so much. It's ridiculous, really~


You should get a look out sir roll against both spells, should you not? Magic wounds are, per the BRB, allocated as shooting wounds, against which people get look out sir rolls.


Sadly, like Vsurma has also mentioned, LOS appears to only be applicable when wounds are caused by templates. The Transmutation and Dwellers Below hit every model in the target unit once, indiscriminately.


I did say "if" :) Why does everything have to be about proving who is right and who is wrong? :wtf:


I wasn't challenging you to prove me wrong, I was hoping that you or anyone else could point me to the rules clause I've missed that will let my characters take a "Look Out Sir!" roll when hit by one of these spells. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any salvation for me here. :cries:

Anyway, I guess that my view on the new rulebook Lores have been tarnished by the fact that the dice burned me the other day, where I lost my army general to these two spells in two consecutive games, the first time in turn 2 and then before I had even had my own turn 1. What provokes me the most is that it really isn't that unlikely to happen when you consider what is required to make the spell do its thing.

It definately hurts the game, in my opinion.

Skyros
12-07-2010, 15:55
What is the consensus on those scrolls that don't dispell, but instead have other effects? (You gain dispell dice, caster takes wounds, etc)?

I've heard some people say that since they say 'instead of dispelling' they can only be used if you could dispell the spell in the first place.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. I could choose to pursue instead of holding if I win combat, but if I can't hold, that doesn't mean I can't pursue either.

In WFB I take instead to mean "You can take one or the other, but not both".

bcr964
12-07-2010, 16:01
I think that it is quite silly to fear this tactic, first and foremost, it does have a pretty big drawback, and second, even with 8 dice, there's only a 39% chance that you will get double 6's.

tehhelios
12-07-2010, 16:16
He is talking about using 6 dice when using a power Scroll.
Read the common magic items, you will get a irresistible force with ANY double rolled, practically guaranteed with 6 dice.

I can see people banning this item.

Sygerrik
12-07-2010, 16:24
He is talking about using 6 dice when using a power Scroll.
Read the common magic items, you will get a irresistible force with ANY double rolled, practically guaranteed with 6 dice.

I can see people banning this item.

Note that you miscast as well, though.

shartmatau
12-07-2010, 16:30
why? you can have one of them in an army. that's one good shot at irresistable. is it powerful? sure but so are lots of things in the game, I fail to see how this is over-powered.

Very few characters will actually die from this, most characters are at least Ini 4 and many are Ini 5. And the Purple Sun you will need to roll for its range, so its not even guaranteed you will hit after casting it. With Dwellers below its a more serious threat because there is no reason not to cast it on the higher power but still with most characters having a strength of 4 its not a guarantee at all.

In my first game I had my dwarf general die in a similar manner, not from these spells but from the little waagh. On turn 2 my general went floating off to meet gork. It sucked but oh well I still did just fine after that. It certainly isn't an 'I win' button.

shartmatau
12-07-2010, 16:41
A far more devastating tactic would be put your wizard on horse in a unit of fast cav. Run forward before the game, move forward in your turn and cast Purple Sun down the flank of your opponents army. It would do far more devastation than killing a general.

MasterSparks
12-07-2010, 16:47
It would do far more devastation than killing a general.

Unless that general is a Vampire Lord who happens to be both the strongest fighter and only wizard in your entire army. Although on the plus side of things, the new Battle Standard rules will let me re-roll my LD tests for crumbling after losing my general. :rolleyes:

Also, it's not like rolling IF is the only way to ever get one of those spells off. Try dispelling against a Slann or an Archmage (the two greater culprits in my experiences) rolling with 5-6 dice. It's really not that easy at all.

shartmatau
12-07-2010, 17:14
Sure I can see that. But the Vampires protection is being both Str and Ini 5. So its really unlikely to get caught by either of those spells. All of the shmucks around him might die from them but he is sitting pretty safe against characteristic tests.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 17:29
I did say "if" :) Why does everything have to be about proving who is right and who is wrong? :wtf:

It's not (always) but rather stopping the spread of incorrect information. It makes sense to correct people that way others reading the forum don't walk away with the incorrect rules.

Yeah, these spells are devastating. I guess no "Look out Sir!" roll since it is not shooting, and MR will not work because that only improves your save against Magic Missiles and Direct Damage spells, and both Final Trans. and Dweller Bellow specify that the model is not allowed a save of any kind.

So all I have to do against VC is take two mages (so I can make sure to get the spell), get my wizard into range, and cast the spell without you dispelling, and then roll a 6 to kill the general. Powerful, yes, but not really an "I win" button.

Also, while VC are especially vulnerable to getting their general ganked, they also have easy access to Final Trans, so they could play the same game. Who can get the spell off first? Can they survive the Loss of Control if they get IF? You did take a scroll in case they do not get IF correct? Vampire Counts, as well as other armies, have ways of killing off enemy spellcasters; doing so should be a high priority.

Well, remember that if they use the power scroll they do get IF 99% of the time with 6 dice. Otherwise good advice, I wouldn't leave home without that dispel scroll myself.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 17:50
What is the consensus on those scrolls that don't dispell, but instead have other effects? (You gain dispell dice, caster takes wounds, etc)?

I've heard some people say that since they say 'instead of dispelling' they can only be used if you could dispell the spell in the first place.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. I could choose to pursue instead of holding if I win combat, but if I can't hold, that doesn't mean I can't pursue either.

In WFB I take instead to mean "You can take one or the other, but not both".

Frog scroll isn't that great, it only does something 1/3 of the time against a lv4 and although it works more often against a lv2, your normally not all that afraid of a lv2 that you would bother taking a 50pt item (on a 100pt mage)

Probably decent against a vampire lord or even hero as they have lower levels, also it drops the units stats to 1! the idea with this scroll is to use it when you are in a situation to charge/shoot the model the next turn. heck a unit of 6 skinks is likely to kill!!! a lord level caster or vampire lord if they are in frog form!

It is powerful no doubt but VERY situational.

Btw it says you may use the scroll instead of "attempting to dispel", I really don't think you can attempt to dispel anything if the enemy rolled an IF....how would that work? So no using them if the enemy has IF.

Now the one that does wounds on a 5+ (feedback scroll) is nice but again situational. Against your average lord level caster it will do 2 wounds on average when they roll 6 dice, this is great! you can then charge them with anything and it dies.

A slann however has a 4+ ward, tzeentzch mages have a 3+ ward etc, they don't care about that item all that much, also all heroes now have access to 4+ wards if they want (though most will rarely if ever buy them)

Again situational, still good though.

Leech scroll seems fairly bad imo, its like a bad dispel scroll for twice the price, seeing as most armies won't have more than 2 mages, meaning no more than 2 arcane items, it doesn't make sense to me. Take the normal dispel scroll instead.

Unless you are running 3 mages, the setup I see most people running is an offensive arcane item for the lord and a dispel scroll for a lv2.

One of my opponents recently ran a leech scroll but really regretted not having a dispel scroll when I cast dwellers below (without IF) and killed his lv4 along with half the unit he was in. Can you really afford not to have a dispel scroll?

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 17:53
I think that it is quite silly to fear this tactic, first and foremost, it does have a pretty big drawback, and second, even with 8 dice, there's only a 39% chance that you will get double 6's.

Hench the use of the power scroll which ups the odds to about 99% :)
It is also the lore of life which can give you a 2+ to ignore the miscast... Unfortunately the drawback isn't all that.... or is there something else your talking about?

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 18:02
why? you can have one of them in an army. that's one good shot at irresistable. is it powerful? sure but so are lots of things in the game, I fail to see how this is over-powered.

You fail to see how a 50% chance of losing your lv4 mage on turn 1 before you get to move is powerful? along with half the unit he is in? all because your opponent bought a 35pts item that negates your chance to dispel...

I suppose you also fail to see how steam tanks are hard to kill or how cannons are strong?....

I wonder if your opinion would change if you lost your lv4 mage before the game started, then had to fight the rest of the battle with little to no magic and little chance to dispel the enemies spells.

What could be MORE powerful?

Very few characters will actually die from this, most characters are at least Ini 4 and many are Ini 5. And the Purple Sun you will need to roll for its range, so its not even guaranteed you will hit after casting it. With Dwellers below its a more serious threat because there is no reason not to cast it on the higher power but still with most characters having a strength of 4 its not a guarantee at all.

Most mages have S3, almost all of them really, 50% chance of death.

In my first game I had my dwarf general die in a similar manner, not from these spells but from the little waagh. On turn 2 my general went floating off to meet gork. It sucked but oh well I still did just fine after that. It certainly isn't an 'I win' button.

In bold.....


A far more devastating tactic would be put your wizard on horse in a unit of fast cav. Run forward before the game, move forward in your turn and cast Purple Sun down the flank of your opponents army. It would do far more devastation than killing a general.

Your mage on a horse does not have the vanguard move so if you do that your entire unit loses this ability.

The magic carpet is for this function.

Korraz
12-07-2010, 18:05
You need Throne first to ignore the miscast. And Dwellers is as close to a megadeth spell as a goblin to Archaon.

And what the hell is the scroll doing actually?

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 18:10
Throne of vines is 8+ to cast, you cast that first, then go for dwellors. Power scroll causes IF on any double, with 6 dice it means you always cause IF. Well almost.

shartmatau
12-07-2010, 18:23
@ Vsurma: Yes I don't think that a 50% chance is an overpowered tactic. That's like saying you would never flip a coin because heads is better than tails. So let me ask you. If you go first, instead of your opponent, do you feel the same way?

I said it is powerful. I also think many other things are powerful in this game. I'll caveat this by saying I play Dwarves, but I don't base my army around my characters. I make characters to help my army.

If you are truly concerned about this then maybe the answer is to not take a lvl 4 and instead maybe take two lvl 2s. You will have the same number of spells available to you, it costs roughly the same, most wizards aren't loading up on expensive magic items, and you spread your magic ability (both offensive and defensive) around instead of centered in one spot.

Jetty Smurf
12-07-2010, 18:26
So what is the answer to a Slann using the power scroll, soul of stone (re-roll miscasts) and cupped hands?

In reality, I can only forsee some unlucky rolling saving any enemy wizard (and any unit they are in) from this.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 18:32
Well, only if you are happy to play warhammer as a coin flip game. Most will say no, they want more.

I play lizards myself so I don't have the option or desire to take lv2s instead as I would be stuck with heavens, so I cannot do as you say.

Even with a lv2, do you not feel that a 35pt item that can take out a mage, even a lv2 along with the unit it is in without chance if dispelling or scrolling is too powerful?

Dwellers below isn't that bad without the scroll, I think the chance of IF is only about 30% with 6 dice. The spell itself is powerful, as a few others but nothing is quite as bad as this one, its the combination of the spell and the scroll that really hurts.

Zinch
12-07-2010, 18:37
I'll be afraid of a flank Purple sun (even then, with a IF you can score a miscast in the distance roll or a misere 6".. are a 1/3 of posibilities AFTER wasting your arcane item and exposing a very expensive mage to a sure death)

The Dwelers is a bad thing, but even then, you will kill half A unit. If you are so afraid, don't put all your eggs in a basket... I'm sure the mage costs as much as half that unit in the majority of the cases (a Lvl 2 wizard has something like a 1/3 of posibilities of getting the desired spell, so it has to be a Lvl4 to get it reliabily)

Jericho
12-07-2010, 18:39
That sounds gross. Does Cupped Hands, scroll and Soul of Stone really work like that for under 100 pts?

Davemaddocks
12-07-2010, 18:44
Ok it all depends on who its getting cast at

Initative has become FAR more inportant then it used to be.

Looking at the 3 big spells mentioned if your a chaos warrior your not that botherd.

The dweller youll loose a 3rd of the models hit the others youll loose only 1 in 6.

str 4 Init 5

plus dont forget that there are a lot of Augment spells about now to counter the effects of those spells Okkums midrazor, now your str 8 etc so you only fail on a 6.

Skyros
12-07-2010, 18:44
Throne of vines is 8+ to cast, you cast that first, then go for dwellors. Power scroll causes IF on any double, with 6 dice it means you always cause IF. Well almost.

The chances of not getting doubles with 6 dice is astronomically small.

I'd always take that scroll, if it weren't for the 'only one arcane item per guy' rule. I often also want powerstones, dispell scrolls, and a unique arcane item.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 18:56
I'll be afraid of a flank Purple sun (even then, with a IF you can score a miscast in the distance roll or a misere 6".. are a 1/3 of posibilities AFTER wasting your arcane item and exposing a very expensive mage to a sure death)

The Dwelers is a bad thing, but even then, you will kill half A unit. If you are so afraid, don't put all your eggs in a basket... I'm sure the mage costs as much as half that unit in the majority of the cases (a Lvl 2 wizard has something like a 1/3 of posibilities of getting the desired spell, so it has to be a Lvl4 to get it reliabily)

Imo it is "A" unit a turn, if you do lose your lv4, you will have a hard time dispelling said 6 dice spell with your 1d6 dispel dice.

Quote Jericho
That sounds gross. Does Cupped Hands, scroll and Soul of Stone really work like that for under 100 pts?

Slann abilities like soul of stone do not use up the item point allowance. The power scroll and cupped hands are both arcane though so you cannot have both. The throne of bines "ignore miscast on 2+" is fine, you don't need cupped hands.

Jetty Smurf
12-07-2010, 18:57
That sounds gross. Does Cupped Hands, scroll and Soul of Stone really work like that for under 100 pts?

As far as I am aware, yes. I have not read thoroughly on what the power scroll does (basing it on info from here), but the LM FAQ states that the cupped hands gets used (if you choose to use it) AFTER the miscast roll has been made.

The soul of stone is a slann ability, and so the scroll and cupped hands only take up 80 points of his 100 point magic item allowance. :D

Edit: Cupped hands is an arcane item. I just read Skyros' post where he states that only 1 arcane item can be taken per character. If this is true, then this combo is impossible. :(

The_Bureaucrat
12-07-2010, 19:02
Can't have two arcane items. So you can't take cupped hands with the scroll. Thank god

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 19:02
Ok it all depends on who its getting cast at

Initative has become FAR more inportant then it used to be.

Looking at the 3 big spells mentioned if your a chaos warrior your not that botherd.

The dweller youll loose a 3rd of the models hit the others youll loose only 1 in 6.

str 4 Init 5

plus dont forget that there are a lot of Augment spells about now to counter the effects of those spells Okkums midrazor, now your str 8 etc so you only fail on a 6.

So your using your entire magic phase to protect 1 unit from 1 specific spell that will then be cast on another unit instead?

So....? you will not cast anything else all game because your casting this on your mages unit all game? That seems like a great gift to the opposing player, no magic going his way and he can still cast on your other units, or on said unit with different spells. This really seems like the worst counter possible. Sorry mate, feel free to use it though, the opponent will love it.

Jetty Smurf
12-07-2010, 19:06
Can't have two arcane items. So you can't take cupped hands with the scroll. Thank god

Yeah, it's a shame. :angel:

I can't believe I had totally forgotten about this rule. I am definitely going to restrict my posting on here until I get my book delivered (ordered from Maelstrom, have only read through a friend's so far).

Zinch
12-07-2010, 19:19
Imo it is "A" unit a turn, if you do lose your lv4, you will have a hard time dispelling said 6 dice spell with your 1d6 dispel dice.



Power scroll is "one use only", so in the remaining turns is like a 30% chance of getting IF. And that if he survive the miscast (or doesn't lose the spell in the miscast, remember that the spell casted is the first forgotten). I'm not saying that an IF Dweling is a devastating weapon, but is not game breakiing unless you rely on your "uber-tunned" character and have the bad luck of getting a 6 for him.

I don't say I like such a powerful spells (WTH, I'm a Dwarf player!) but I don't believe this is as "win button" as people claim it to be

EDIT: Also, I don't think putting your lvl4 wizard in your more expensive unit is the way to go. So if your opponent tagets your wizard, there's a 50% chance (even more depending on your army) that it won't do anything relevant

kaintxu
12-07-2010, 20:10
As i say on most topic, you do get LOS! against magic, not only because it says as skyros say alocated as shotting, but because, if you read the LOS! rule its self, not the champions and shooting part, but the LOS! rules which is what we are talking about, it says templates, not shooting templates

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 20:11
True but since the opponent is likely down a mage they will have a tough time dispelling your spell, even with a lv4 mage it is tough to dispell if you have 3-5 DD and oppponent has 6 PD.

The spell won't go after S5 characters, it goes after S3 mages, not a 6 needed to fail, a 4+.

Dwarves care less than others since they can add as many scrolls and DD as they want to their army, few others can though.

I know the tournament I went to had people talking about this a lot. That and the steamtanks.

Cheaper units are a good place for mages, but rarely do people want to run them especially big, which makes them more vulnerable to other things like shooting and CC.

Everything seems to be a trade off this edition, at least we have something new to discuss and playtest.

Personally I ran 2 lv4s and a lv1 so if I had lost a mage it would not have ended my magic phase, but that only works in games of 2400 or more.

explorator
12-07-2010, 20:45
Please prove me wrong if you can.



I wasn't challenging you to prove me wrong...

Just sayin' :)


As i say on most topic, you do get LOS! against magic, not only because it says as skyros say alocated as shotting, but because, if you read the LOS! rule its self, not the champions and shooting part, but the LOS! rules which is what we are talking about, it says templates, not shooting templates

Purple Sun is a template, but Dwellers and Final Trans do not use a template, and instead target each model in the unit. If you are seeing rules that allow ook out Sir! from non-template spell effects please give me a page number, as it is the apparent lack of the Look out Sir! roll that makes these two spells particularly dangerous to characters.

Gaz-A-Tron
12-07-2010, 21:10
A couple of things to remember:

You now pick you magic lore when you build your list. So in a tournament you're not going to know what you'll face - so picking a lore (or getting one from the sphinx) isn't going to guarantee an advantage.

Purple Sun is an initiative test. You take a miscast and blow all your power dice for a phase for a less than 1/6 chance to kill my elf mage? Sure, i'll let you have it.

Dwellers is a strength test. OK, it's bad on core units. But notice how more elite units tend to have higher strength (elves excepted) It's still nasty (5+ to kill on most units - or better) and probably worst for taking out opposing magic, due to the flimsy nature of most casters. However, it's short ranged (can't remember if you can upscale it). Which means your caster is close to my units....not good)

Final Transformation - again, it's 5+ on units, but 6+ if it's got multiple wounds.

Now, remember what you need to invest to get this amazing ability. A Lvl 2 or more mage (say 100pts), and a scroll (50pts). And you need to give your best spell to your lvl 2 - making it harder to cast & easier to dispell. This implies that you have a lvl 4 as well, so thats another 250pts or so. Thats a lot of points to waste on a tourney list where you pick death magic and i bring elves. Or you pick gold and i bring horde night goblins...damn you killed 1/3 of my 100 pt unit with your 150pt combo.

It's not a win button. It's as much as a win button as anything else in this game which could go either way. When it works its great, when the situation is right its great, but more often than not playing a gimmick is just going to make you an unpopular gamer....and whats more, an unpopular loser too.

Zinch
12-07-2010, 21:26
True but since the opponent is likely down a mage they will have a tough time dispelling your spell, even with a lv4 mage it is tough to dispell if you have 3-5 DD and oppponent has 6 PD.

The spell won't go after S5 characters, it goes after S3 mages, not a 6 needed to fail, a 4+.

Dwarves care less than others since they can add as many scrolls and DD as they want to their army, few others can though.



Likely is not the word. Against a S3 wizard there's a 50% chance of killing it. And then there a lot of races that have a higher S wizard (WoC, DoC, Ogres, Dwarfs, LZM,Beastmen, O&G, VC), in fact, there are more races with lvl 4 mages with S higher than 3


Just sayin' :)

Purple Sun is a template, but Dwellers and Final Trans do not use a template, and instead target each model in the unit. If you are seeing rules that allow ook out Sir! from non-template spell effects please give me a page number, as it is the apparent lack of the Look out Sir! roll that makes these two spells particularly dangerous to characters.

I think that since they "impact" every member of the unit, there isn't anyone that could "take the shot in his place" so you don't have a LOS roll.

noT_Him
12-07-2010, 21:27
People who say its win button didnt play one game of 8ed. Im finished with 6 and during 3 of them magic was USLESS - rolled like 3 and 4 first turn ( 7 dices ) 2 and 2 second ( 4 ) and 1 and 2 third ( 3 ) - magic is SO unpredictable now that its as far from i win button as it can - just remember that the game was scaled with bigger battles in mind i think that sadly 3000 pts is ideal format for the game itself - the magic has marginal meaning as there is so much more stuff on board and you are still capped at 12 dice.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 21:33
A couple of things to remember:

You now pick you magic lore when you build your list. So in a tournament you're not going to know what you'll face - so picking a lore (or getting one from the sphinx) isn't going to guarantee an advantage.

Purple Sun is an initiative test. You take a miscast and blow all your power dice for a phase for a less than 1/6 chance to kill my elf mage? Sure, i'll let you have it.

Dwellers is a strength test. OK, it's bad on core units. But notice how more elite units tend to have higher strength (elves excepted) It's still nasty (5+ to kill on most units - or better) and probably worst for taking out opposing magic, due to the flimsy nature of most casters. However, it's short ranged (can't remember if you can upscale it). Which means your caster is close to my units....not good)

12" to cast with 18 value, 24" to cast with 21, you will upscale it no question. Your wizard has his march move then 24" so 32 in total. Good luck getting away from that.

Final Transformation - again, it's 5+ on units, but 6+ if it's got multiple wounds.

Now, remember what you need to invest to get this amazing ability. A Lvl 2 or more mage (say 100pts), and a scroll (50pts). And you need to give your best spell to your lvl 2 - making it harder to cast & easier to dispell. This implies that you have a lvl 4 as well, so thats another 250pts or so. Thats a lot of points to waste on a tourney list where you pick death magic and i bring elves. Or you pick gold and i bring horde night goblins...damn you killed 1/3 of my 100 pt unit with your 150pt combo.

It's not a win button. It's as much as a win button as anything else in this game which could go either way. When it works its great, when the situation is right its great, but more often than not playing a gimmick is just going to make you an unpopular gamer....and whats more, an unpopular loser too.

I doubt anyone takes their lores just for 1 spell, death is about character assassination, the purple sun is the bonus spell in there, you take it for the 3 assassination spells and the 2 hexs. You can forget purple sun if the enemy has high init.

With shadow you can hex them to lower init then pit them anyway.
Life lore is taken for healing, 2d6 S6 hits forrest spell etc.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 21:36
Likely is not the word. Against a S3 wizard there's a 50% chance of killing it. And then there a lot of races that have a higher S wizard (WoC, DoC, Ogres, Dwarfs, LZM,Beastmen, O&G, VC), in fact, there are more races with lvl 4 mages with S higher than 3



I think that since they "impact" every member of the unit, there isn't anyone that could "take the shot in his place" so you don't have a LOS roll.

Lizards have S3. Even S4 means 1/3 chance to lose your mage, not exactly horrible. It is of course more attractive against S3 casters.

Vsurma
12-07-2010, 21:37
People who say its win button didnt play one game of 8ed. Im finished with 6 and during 3 of them magic was USLESS - rolled like 3 and 4 first turn ( 7 dices ) 2 and 2 second ( 4 ) and 1 and 2 third ( 3 ) - magic is SO unpredictable now that its as far from i win button as it can - just remember that the game was scaled with bigger battles in mind i think that sadly 3000 pts is ideal format for the game itself - the magic has marginal meaning as there is so much more stuff on board and you are still capped at 12 dice.

12 dice is plenty, I wouldn't complain, also a fair few armies actually go well beyond the 12.

Lord Inquisitor
12-07-2010, 21:39
It doesn't need to be a turn 1 "I win" button however. The ability to cast a spell - any spell without any real chance of being dispelled is fairly horrific.

There are spells that are far more likely to be game-winning than necessarily the uber-spell-of-doom. The Speed of Light, Doom and Darkness or the Withering are spells that can win games if cast at a critical moment. Even Transformation of Khadon for a lone wizard that charges the enemy - normally suicide if the spell doesn't go off, but with the security of knowing that this is most improbable. And even if the mistcast kills the wizard, hey, you can take consollation in that you'll probably take a big chunk of the enemy with you.

The kicker in all this is that it only costs you a handful of points. An Empire wizard kitted out for this sort of duty is less than 150 points and capable of wreaking far more destruction than his points value with horrific reliability. It'd be okay if there was a big risk involved but for a paltry 150 points, it isn't that big at all.

noT_Him
12-07-2010, 22:02
Yeah - Lore of shadows is pretty sick - the -d3 spells are total overkill - as there is a paragraph in the book that if at any time your S or T is 0 - you are dead ;)

I think that only 2 armys that can go above 12 are dark elves and tzeentch. You need something that adds dives when you want it and not at the start of the turn.

12 is plenty but how many times you will roll double 6.

And also this - now you can march if you pass LD - what good will purple sun do you when the mage and his unit is cought in combat ?

Gaz-A-Tron
12-07-2010, 22:06
With shadow you can hex them to lower init then pit them anyway. Life lore is taken for healing, 2d6 S6 hits forrest spell etc.

OK sure, there are some nasty nasty combos out there. But only high elves (teclis or an archmage with book of hoeth) can really pull off double-spell tactics with any degree of reliability. And that requires a huge investment in what is a quite squishy package.

There's much to be said for the 'put your eggs in many baskets' thread too. No longer are we playing armies of deathstar + chaff. A 1000pt deathstar is simply not effective against 100 night goblins or 60 tzeentch marauders with the 5+ ward. Kill my deathstar? ouch. Kill my 60 marauders....whatever.

Life lore for healing? D3+1 wounds? When we have combats with people swinging 30+ times? Life is perhaps the worst lore of the bunch - and it's only saving grace is Dwellers. Yes, death is about assassination. But then again, characters don't have to be worth 500 points anymore to be effective.

The question comes down to "is there a win-button in 8ed?" - not just in the magic phase but in any phase - and I would say the answer is no. (And i'd agree with @Not_Him on the play-more-games front...The rules are only a few days old - and i'm fully prepared to admit that I may be wrong in the future). There are plenty of things that are situationally nasty - but the key word there is situationally. There are counters for everything that i've seen (in 8 games thus far), and counters for those counters, and so on.

Nocculum
12-07-2010, 22:11
Feedback Scroll.

Next question?

Kirasu
12-07-2010, 22:11
Even against I4 troops purple sun with IF is extremely scary.. Okay yeah you you die on a 5+ but if you're on a flank you hit what, the ENTIRE army? lol thats pretty damn amazing

The combo Im gonna try out once is Slaan + Ethereal/+1 PD/Re-roll miscast/loremaster then you use power scroll + flying carpet so you can move 20" on turn 1 then blow up their entire army.. Granted a misfire would suck

You then will likely lose d6 power dice yet you'll gain like 20 dice so whatever

Lord Inquisitor
12-07-2010, 22:22
Feedback Scroll.

Next question?

Great! Except:

1) You can't use it. You cannot "even attempt" to dispel the spell (p33) and the Feedback scroll is read "instead of attempting to dispel the spell" (p504) ergo as you cannot attempt to dispel you can't read the scroll.
2) It's a 50-point item wasted on a puny level 1 or level 2 wizard
3) The fate of the puny wizard is irrelevant, he might well die from the resultant miscast anyway.
4) It doesn't stop the wizard from casting the uber-spell-of-doom anyway and crippling a unit.

Other than that, great plan.

powpow1001
12-07-2010, 22:54
warhammer looks awesome :)

noT_Him
12-07-2010, 23:26
Lord Inquisitor - one question - how will you put the uber spell on right guy ? I mean ok you take 2 wizzards one with 4lvl and second with 2lvl and power scroll.

First you roll spells for the 4lvl one - lets say you roll 3,4,5,6 - oh no the uber spell ends on the wrong mage ! - then you replace it with the 0 spell.

Then the 2lvl throws dice - you get 1,2

No one gets the 6 spell

Ok its not very probable BUT its possible and another reason not to threat magic as i win button

It I win if there is a large sum of feveroble coincidances :D

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2010, 00:01
It very much depends, it takes some canny to get it to work right if you need a specific spell, but it can be very effective.

For example, a humble Necromancer. 75 points with the power stone. That's not a lot to pay for a Vanhels that cannot be stopped, and most VC players will tell you that there's going to be one or two times a game where a Vanhel's is absolutely critical.

Getting more expensive, a vampire with Forbidden Lore and a Power Stone clocks in at 155, and that gives you access to a whole rulebook Lore.

Even with a single wizard without the ability to choose spells, you have quite a bit of a chance that you roll any given spell. Lets say you have a Level 2 wizard. The odds that you roll the spell is a little over 30% naturally ... but this is increased by roughly 1/6 because any doubles allow you to re-roll. If you can be flexible and any two spells in a lore are suitable for the wizardbomb, the probability of getting either one of the spells becomes more likely than not.

In any case, there are hardly any spells that aren't rather useful as an alpha strike. Even a humble Fireball or Searing Doom can easily wipe out a small unit or cripple an elite cav unit on turn 1. Worst comes to worst, it's not like the power stone is wasted and you can still use it to dominate a magic phase.

Not, I would consider, an automatic "I win" button. But a potential one. Certainly a very powerful potential combo.

noT_Him
13-07-2010, 00:13
No one disputes the potential but here is real life example from yesterdays game. My friend wanted to xerxes flank of my dwarfs - he manuvered perfectly right on the empty flank of my line ( my 1 mistacke to let him go there ) and behind a forest - he had to go outside of the unit for that but hay its suicide mission anyway. Now he is all gigling about how he will roll the line and stuff and what do winds of magic bring ? 3 and 1 - I take one away with the rune of balance - that leaves him with 3 dices - he cast he doesnt get IF ( 1 2 and 5 ) his mage meats Gotrek and dies ( taking the uber spell with him ).

As you said - the powerscroll dude with 2 lvl is going to be a staple in many armys but I do not think he will be I win button. The sheer potential of things like flyers and cavalry going on suicide mission to bring 2W model down will be more then enought to keep people away from this set up.

For instance i used him in 3 games and 2 times he unloaded with the fired up pit of shades ( I love shadow magic ) - what happened ? one time i fried my unit of proxyed Great swords to oblivion ( so i know i have to go outside the unit before i cast or the cost could be to dire ) and the other time I realy fall victim of a bad scatter and menaged to kill whole 10 lizardman :/

kaintxu
13-07-2010, 00:44
OK sure, there are some nasty nasty combos out there. But only high elves (teclis or an archmage with book of hoeth) can really pull off double-spell tactics with any degree of reliability. And that requires a huge investment in what is a quite squishy package.

There's much to be said for the 'put your eggs in many baskets' thread too. No longer are we playing armies of deathstar + chaff. A 1000pt deathstar is simply not effective against 100 night goblins or 60 tzeentch marauders with the 5+ ward. Kill my deathstar? ouch. Kill my 60 marauders....whatever.

Life lore for healing? D3+1 wounds? When we have combats with people swinging 30+ times? Life is perhaps the worst lore of the bunch - and it's only saving grace is Dwellers. Yes, death is about assassination. But then again, characters don't have to be worth 500 points anymore to be effective.

The question comes down to "is there a win-button in 8ed?" - not just in the magic phase but in any phase - and I would say the answer is no. (And i'd agree with @Not_Him on the play-more-games front...The rules are only a few days old - and i'm fully prepared to admit that I may be wrong in the future). There are plenty of things that are situationally nasty - but the key word there is situationally. There are counters for everything that i've seen (in 8 games thus far), and counters for those counters, and so on.

Life lore has the potential to heal D6+1 plus another wound per spell cast, if you use a Stegadon, or Kroxigors its quite usefull, also they are low casting spells so a slann with rumination can easily get 4 or 5 out.

You also get, D6(2D6) S4(s6) spells, protection against mistcast, +2(+4) to toughness, 5+(4+) regen, i think it has many uses, its a defensive lore, but it does quite well, lets see how you do with your sword masters, your halberd wielding chaos or other stuff against T8 saurus or TG, or 4+ regen temple guard

Allonairre
13-07-2010, 01:23
Because of the nature of the offensive spells being so situational, in tournaments I can see lores that are heavy on Hexes and Buffs being the most common picks. I know what I have and where I will need to buff regardless of where my opponents strengths are. As already discussed relying on the uber spells to win the game is not going to work that often.

I do think however that GW should have thought through some of the number 6 spells, Purple Sun in particular a bit more thoroughly however.

As a side question how many people will still take a Dispel Scroll, I always took 2 but don't know if 1 (with no other arcane item) is worth bothering about, I think I might start to use the destroy spell scrolls. I think all the 50 pt scrolls are a rip off. With probably only 2 mages in most of my armies (High Elves cost too much for much else) picking Arcane items, always tricky, has become a nightmare.

Sparowl
13-07-2010, 03:10
Life lore for healing? D3+1 wounds? When we have combats with people swinging 30+ times? Life is perhaps the worst lore of the bunch - and it's only saving grace is Dwellers.

In terms of an "I win" button, dwellers is pretty good. I've already killed two lvl 4s and a bsb with it, plus half of the units they were in. It's a really good anti-horde spell.

As a lore, it's amazing. Playing the tower scenario, putting +4 toughness on a unit of saurus in the building means that it's goin to be extremely difficult to pull them out of the tower. And the resurrection of d6+1 models is incredibly powerful on a deathstar/anvil unit like temple guard (who are fairly expensive points wise).

"I win" can be many things besides destroying enemy units.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-07-2010, 05:31
The kicker in all this is that it only costs you a handful of points. An Empire wizard kitted out for this sort of duty is less than 150 points and capable of wreaking far more destruction than his points value with horrific reliability.

There's absolutely no reliability in this suggestion I'm afraid. You have such a small chance to get this spell with your L1 or 2 that you'd be wasting points to rely on it.



1) You can't use it. You cannot "even attempt" to dispel the spell (p33) and the Feedback scroll is read "instead of attempting to dispel the spell" (p504) ergo as you cannot attempt to dispel you can't read the scroll.


Of course you can use it. Nobody is attempting to dispel anything, so that first clause is irrelevant. You can do other things instead though. Your conclusion that X and Y instead of Y are the same thing is wrong.



2) It's a 50-point item wasted on a puny level 1 or level 2 wizard


It does not matter what level the wizard is who carries this scroll. It has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. It's about preventing considerable losses and preventing the opüposition from repeating any such attempt.

Vsurma
13-07-2010, 05:45
Yeah - Lore of shadows is pretty sick - the -d3 spells are total overkill - as there is a paragraph in the book that if at any time your S or T is 0 - you are dead ;)

I think that only 2 armys that can go above 12 are dark elves and tzeentch. You need something that adds dives when you want it and not at the start of the turn.

12 is plenty but how many times you will roll double 6.

And also this - now you can march if you pass LD - what good will purple sun do you when the mage and his unit is cought in combat ?

Actually there are more races that can go over 12, a slann or 2 for example is likely to add 5-6 dice regardless of their roll. (as long as it is not smaller than 5-6 to begin with)

The thing is though that what is more important than the actual number of dice is the difference between the your PD and the opponent DD.

16PD and 6DD is actually not as good as say 12PD and 3DD etc. Any time the opponent has 6DD or less they are in danger imo.


OK sure, there are some nasty nasty combos out there. But only high elves (teclis or an archmage with book of hoeth) can really pull off double-spell tactics with any degree of reliability. And that requires a huge investment in what is a quite squishy package.

There's much to be said for the 'put your eggs in many baskets' thread too. No longer are we playing armies of deathstar + chaff. A 1000pt deathstar is simply not effective against 100 night goblins or 60 tzeentch marauders with the 5+ ward. Kill my deathstar? ouch. Kill my 60 marauders....whatever.

Life lore for healing? D3+1 wounds? When we have combats with people swinging 30+ times? Life is perhaps the worst lore of the bunch - and it's only saving grace is Dwellers. Yes, death is about assassination. But then again, characters don't have to be worth 500 points anymore to be effective.

The question comes down to "is there a win-button in 8ed?" - not just in the magic phase but in any phase - and I would say the answer is no. (And i'd agree with @Not_Him on the play-more-games front...The rules are only a few days old - and i'm fully prepared to admit that I may be wrong in the future). There are plenty of things that are situationally nasty - but the key word there is situationally. There are counters for everything that i've seen (in 8 games thus far), and counters for those counters, and so on.

Well it really depends a slann with say 3+3 dice vs 3 dispel is going to be casting 3-6 spells a turn, opponent has 3 DD.... There seems to be a strange divide atm, some races can get really strong magic phases, about half the armies it turns out, the other half it seems can get really strong magic defence. Empire and dwarves can add as many DD to their army as they like. Orks can get +3 etc.

Not sure if there are armies that belong to neither group (beastmen?) Still, if a strong magic army (generally not especially strong at magic defence) goes up against a similar army, there will be a lot of spells going through each round.

The upgraded version of the heal spell is d6+1 which is fairly nice imo. 2d6 S6 hits, I like that, 2d6 S4 to anyone in btb with the casted on unit after each magic phase... like that. Free heal for each spell cast... not bad. Dwellers, the best mage killer around. 2+ miscast protection. +2/4 toughness and a 5/4+ regen for the casters unit... all sound pretty good to me. It is a defensive lore but a darn good one at that.

Starting the game without your lv4 mage will be an uphill struggle but then the new edition does allow you to take 2 such characters, for most races anyway once the game is over 2000pts so I guess it can be dealt with, take 2 lv4 mages.

Vsurma
13-07-2010, 05:58
Lord Inquisitor - one question - how will you put the uber spell on right guy ? I mean ok you take 2 wizzards one with 4lvl and second with 2lvl and power scroll.

First you roll spells for the 4lvl one - lets say you roll 3,4,5,6 - oh no the uber spell ends on the wrong mage ! - then you replace it with the 0 spell.

Then the 2lvl throws dice - you get 1,2

No one gets the 6 spell

Ok its not very probable BUT its possible and another reason not to threat magic as i win button

It I win if there is a large sum of feveroble coincidances :D

Lol you just explained the only way to NOT get it... is anyone actually going to go out of their way to make sure they have a chance to not get the spell... Think not.

Ideally you just take lore master if you have it, if you don't they yea 4 spells, hope you get it (66%) chance or hope you roll a double so can choose it. I am sure you have well over a 90% chance to get your spell with a lv4 mage. I will take those odds.

The force scroll has a secondary use as well, seeing as your opponent will know you have a good spell, say dwellers and enough dice to cast it, they are likely to let the smaller spells through so they have dice to dispel the last one, which they won't be able to... I need to give this item a run!


Because of the nature of the offensive spells being so situational, in tournaments I can see lores that are heavy on Hexes and Buffs being the most common picks. I know what I have and where I will need to buff regardless of where my opponents strengths are. As already discussed relying on the uber spells to win the game is not going to work that often.

I do think however that GW should have thought through some of the number 6 spells, Purple Sun in particular a bit more thoroughly however.

As a side question how many people will still take a Dispel Scroll, I always took 2 but don't know if 1 (with no other arcane item) is worth bothering about, I think I might start to use the destroy spell scrolls. I think all the 50 pt scrolls are a rip off. With probably only 2 mages in most of my armies (High Elves cost too much for much else) picking Arcane items, always tricky, has become a nightmare.

Picking has become tricky indeed, with so many new good arcane items (I counted 7 I like including a few from my own book) it is indeed pretty. That said with all this talk of using the force scroll (have yet to try it) I think I might just go with force scroll, dispel scroll, cube of darkness for my lizards.

I have so many Init1 troops, saurus, templeguard, kroxigor, stegs, carnosaur (init 2) and with 2 lores having init spells of doom I don't see how I can go to combat without the scrolls. I do plan on spending 700pts on magic in 2400+ games.

Vsurma
13-07-2010, 06:15
There's absolutely no reliability in this suggestion I'm afraid. You have such a small chance to get this spell with your L1 or 2 that you'd be wasting points to rely on it.



Of course you can use it. Nobody is attempting to dispel anything, so that first clause is irrelevant. You can do other things instead though. Your conclusion that X and Y instead of Y are the same thing is wrong.



It does not matter what level the wizard is who carries this scroll. It has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. It's about preventing considerable losses and preventing the opüposition from repeating any such attempt.

The scrolls say "you may use this instead of attempting to dispel" since in the case of IF you cannot "attempt to dispel" I don't see how you can use the scroll since it is used instead of doing something that is in this case impossible.

It seems implied to me that you cannot use it, in fact this seems like a clear place for GW to write it can be used even in IF if they so wanted. (granted they are far from perfect with their wording)

Memnos
13-07-2010, 06:58
So what is the answer to a Slann using the power scroll, soul of stone (re-roll miscasts) and cupped hands?

In reality, I can only forsee some unlucky rolling saving any enemy wizard (and any unit they are in) from this.

A Slann is initiative 2 and you can power scroll his watertight swamp butt back to the stone-age if you get a 'Take an initiative test or die' spell off on him?

Vsurma
13-07-2010, 07:37
He gets a look out sir roll for being in a unit though so not in 1 spell.

You will hit enough templeguard though that if he doesn't have lore of life chances are that after a pit or purple sun or 2 his unit is small enough to negate the look out sir roll.

Can cannons fire on the slann without a look out sir? the book states the cannons fire counts as a template with a thin line though so maybe not?

Khal
13-07-2010, 10:04
He gets a look out sir roll for being in a unit though so not in 1 spell.

You will hit enough templeguard though that if he doesn't have lore of life chances are that after a pit or purple sun or 2 his unit is small enough to negate the look out sir roll.

Can cannons fire on the slann without a look out sir? the book states the cannons fire counts as a template with a thin line though so maybe not?

AFAIK, page 99 of the BRB, it states clearly that templates, while model being the same troop type and unit has five rank-and-file models, it has the LO,S! rule as always

Or doesn't the slann count as infantry? I hope so.. ahahah!

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2010, 15:08
There's absolutely no reliability in this suggestion I'm afraid. You have such a small chance to get this spell with your L1 or 2 that you'd be wasting points to rely on it.
Why? Lets say I take a Level 4 and a Level 2 with a powerstone. I roll the Level 4 first, if I roll the spell I want for the Level 2, I substitute if for the signature spell. The level 2 then rolls for his spells - if he rolls a duplicate of any of the Level 4's spells, he gets to choose. If he rolls a duplicate of his own, he gets to chose. The probability of NOT rolling the spell in question is extremely low. (The ONLY way of not getting the spell is if the Level 4 rolls the spell (1-5/6^4), which is substituted, and then the Level 2 rolls exactly the two spells other than the required spell (1/18), for a total probability of 0.028 or about 3%)

Plus I've given several possibilities of auto-choosing spells. Many if not most armies have the ability to choose spells or know a whole lore.


Of course you can use it. Nobody is attempting to dispel anything, so that first clause is irrelevant. You can do other things instead though. Your conclusion that X and Y instead of Y are the same thing is wrong.
I'll go through this slowly.

Instead of attempting to dispel, you may read the scroll. So, when you get your dispel attempt, you may instead use the scroll.

Irrisistible force means you do not even attempt to dispel the spell.

If you do not have an opportunity to even attempt to dispel the spell, there is no dispel attempt. Ergo you cannot use any items that are used instead of attempting to dispel as you do not have a dispel attempt.

Skyros
13-07-2010, 15:56
So it seems to be a consensus that you cannot use the 'instead of dispelling' scrolls if you can't attempt to dispel in the first place?

So, if you had a wizard with one of those scrolls, who failed a dispell roll earlier in the phase, he couldn't use it?

Same thing for if the spell is an IF?

Is that really the right reading of 'instead'?

That's not really the way we use 'instead' in everyday conversation.

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2010, 16:39
Hmm. I see what you mean, although "instead" is used "in place of" quite commonly. Nevertheless, my feeling is that you have to allow the spell through to use one of these scrolls and give up your dispel attempt. If you don't have a dispel attempt to give up, then it feels like circumventing the disadvantage inherent in the scroll. And yes, if a wizard is not allowed to dispel, it makes sense that he's not allowed to use a scroll.

That's a far more common (and important) question I feel - is a wizard that has failed a dispel attempt allowed to use a dispel scroll? I'd say no, looking at the rules.

Jericho
13-07-2010, 17:11
That would be my impression, which adds a very interesting twist to the phase.

"I'll just use my scroll on his uber spell, so I can merrily chuck dispel dice at his weaker castings... oh look I rolled a 4 on 3 dice! I'm screwed!"

I am really good at rolling 4 on 3 dice btw.

I guess you really have to spread out the defense items, scroll carriers shouldn't risk being used to dispel normally.

Kirasu
13-07-2010, 17:41
AFAIK, page 99 of the BRB, it states clearly that templates, while model being the same troop type and unit has five rank-and-file models, it has the LO,S! rule as always

Or doesn't the slann count as infantry? I hope so.. ahahah!

Slaan is normal infantry as per the bestiary in the back of the book.. Its quite useful to check what your units are classified as now

Lord Solar Plexus
13-07-2010, 17:47
Why? Lets say I take a Level 4 and a Level 2 with a powerstone.

Your have at most 150 points.



I'll go through this slowly.

Instead of attempting to dispel, you may read the scroll. So, when you get your dispel attempt, you may instead use the scroll.

I'll go through this a little faster: My car broke down. Instead of taking the car, I take the tram.

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2010, 20:34
Your have at most 150 points.
150 points of expendable wizard. Noone said anything about not bringing along another wizard for when your expendable miscasts himself to death or just gets shot in retaliation.

The level 4 is points well spent for the rest of the game.


I'll go through this a little faster: My car broke down. Instead of taking the car, I take the tram.
What does that prove?

Look, we can play this game with other units.

Cannons;
"Instead of firing a normal shot, cannon crew can opt to fire grapeshot" So can I fire grapeshot when I'm disallowed from firing normally?

Fly
"Units made up entirely of models that can fly can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement value, or instead choose to fly" So does that mean that a flyer forbidden from moving is allowed to fly?

Can trolls vomit if disallowed from attacking normally? Etc. In Warhammer, if you can use an effect that instead of a basic effect, if you're forbidden from doing the basic effect then you're forbidden from doing the alternative effect.

Memnos
14-07-2010, 07:30
It's 1(5/6*4/6*3/6*2/6*1/6) or roughly 1.6% of not getting a double.

You have a better than 98% of getting doubles with 6 dice. With that, you're practically guaranteed of getting a spell off, albeit with a miscast.


The chances of not getting doubles with 6 dice is astronomically small.

I'd always take that scroll, if it weren't for the 'only one arcane item per guy' rule. I often also want powerstones, dispell scrolls, and a unique arcane item.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-07-2010, 07:48
150 points of expendable wizard. Noone said anything about not bringing along another wizard for when your expendable miscasts himself to death or just gets shot in retaliation.

You said that those paltry 150 points would lead to near absolute reliability but in order to reliably get the spell in the first place you would have to invest considerably more.

Of course people are going to take an L4 regardless but if two units work together, mentioning only parts of the cost is misleading.




Cannons;
"Instead of firing a normal shot, cannon crew can opt to fire grapeshot" So can I fire grapeshot when I'm disallowed from firing normally?

Of course not. Both actions are "firing" and as such, both actions are prevented. In our case, you are prevented from dispelling but not from taking an action that isn't dispelling. The Frog scroll or others do not dispell. In fact, they all say that the spell goes off.

Punjoke
14-07-2010, 08:17
It's a shaky example to compare 40k rules to Fantasy rules, I know, but until we get a FAQ it's the best we can do.

When rules in 40k are written like the scrolls where you can do "X instead of Y," doing X prevents you from doing Y but not being able to do Y does not prevent you from doing X. The Eldar FAQ has two examples of this - Warp Spiders may make an extra jump in the assault phase "instead of assaulting" and may make this move even if they cannot assault, and tanks with Star Engines may make an extra move in the shooting phase "in lieu of shooting" and may do so even if they can't shoot - but they must still be allowed to move.

Of course, Fantasy isn't 40k so I believe there's room to believe otherwise until we get a FAQ.

Fruhauf
14-07-2010, 08:42
It seems that people are playing 8th ed magic with 7th ed minds...

Yes in 8th ed there is more of an 'I win' approach... if you allow it to be so.

If a spell is not cast with irresistible force it can be dispelled... to me that says in 8th ed it is more necessary to bring dispel scrolls, and my artillery and shooters/assassins etc have an early objective -> go for enemy wizards.

Additionally, it balances out what initially appeared to be an 'I win' by bringing big horde blocks (khorne GW marauders for WoC seemed to be an 'I win' but purple sun would negate this? - of course providing you can get away with casting it)

A final solution is house rules, ban lore of death if you're playing friends.

Jadiel
14-07-2010, 08:48
It's a shaky example to compare 40k rules to Fantasy rules, I know, but until we get a FAQ it's the best we can do.

When rules in 40k are written like the scrolls where you can do "X instead of Y," doing X prevents you from doing Y but not being able to do Y does not prevent you from doing X. The Eldar FAQ has two examples of this - Warp Spiders may make an extra jump in the assault phase "instead of assaulting" and may make this move even if they cannot assault, and tanks with Star Engines may make an extra move in the shooting phase "in lieu of shooting" and may do so even if they can't shoot - but they must still be allowed to move.

Of course, Fantasy isn't 40k so I believe there's room to believe otherwise until we get a FAQ.

"Instead" is ambiguous in WFB also, and in the same way. For example, the regeneration rules state that you may make a regen save "instead of taking a ward save". However, I don't think that anyone would argue that an effect which disallowed ward saves (is there such an effect?) also disallowed regen saves.

This is just one example, I'm sure there are others if you spend enough time searching for them.

Punjoke
14-07-2010, 12:04
"Instead" is ambiguous in WFB also, and in the same way. For example, the regeneration rules state that you make make a regen save "instead of taking a ward save". However, I don't think that anyone would argue that an effect which disallowed ward saves (is there such an effect?) also disallowed regen saves.

Actually yes, there are magic items that disallow ward saves. I didn't even think of regen saves as an example but that's a good one too.

First time I looked at the new scrolls my first assumption was that they could not be used if the spell couldn't be dispelled, but the more I think about it and similar rules, the more it seems that they can be used even in situations where one could not attempt to dispel.

Lord Inquisitor
15-07-2010, 03:06
*Sulks*

Fine, there are plenty of examples. :p

I still think it's unlikely that you're allowed to do anything in response to an irrisitable force but I guess that's a matter for a FAQ...

Lord Solar Plexus
15-07-2010, 05:10
Well, perhaps we can agree that it would be nice as it brings back some kind of balance? It's not as if such a scroll will outright kill someone and having an L1 with the big spell turned into a frog is pretty meaningless for 50 points too.

I think that if you cannot use those scrolls when it matters they become a lot less attractive. I'm not sure I would shell out 50 points if they work in case of IF - the chance they'll do nothing at all is too high.

popisdead
15-07-2010, 22:22
Lots of mortars will i-win button the lvl 4's unit before he can cast the "Megadeth" spell.

- Vic R :P

Logic512
17-07-2010, 06:32
@ OP - It is actually only a 1-(625/1296) chance of getting the Purple Sun with your set-up (that's just over half for normal people). Not an I-win button at all. If you actually get it off in a game, then yes, that's not too good.

It's a 98.46% chance of going off with 6 dice and IF on every double roll.


EDIT: Never mind; already covered. Carry on citizens.

Logic512
17-07-2010, 06:38
*Sulks*

Fine, there are plenty of examples. :p

I still think it's unlikely that you're allowed to do anything in response to an irresistable force but I guess that's a matter for a FAQ...

You are allowed to use a feedback scroll and average 2 wounds on the wizard throwing 6 dice. I even think it works if the character carrying the scroll is killed by the spell since it it used when the spell is successfully cast but resolved after the spell effects are finished.

Vsurma
17-07-2010, 06:56
Some mages care little for those 2 wounds.

Slann 5 wounds, 4+ ward
tzeentzch 3+ ward (I think)

Any mage can take a 4+ ward item if they wish (though it does cost a lot)

If it was no saves of any kind I guess that item would be quite powerful.
As it is taking it is a risk since it costs a lot and at times does nothing.

Against a no armour mage however it will likely kill them, with 1 wound from the miscast and 2 from the scroll = dead wizard.

Anyone been using the scroll lately? any success?
I ran into 1 at a tournament, opponent cast it when I cast dwellers below on his unit but it did maybe 1 wound to my slann and he really wished he had a dispel scroll instead.

tacoo
17-07-2010, 06:57
With the new lores and lots of wars to snipe from death and all the characteristic tests going around from other spells, make me happy I play warriors. for 10 pts i auto pass all non-ld test, and im straight up immune to death and nurgle lores :p

Cartoon
17-07-2010, 07:38
Yeah Necrotic Phylactery certainly has it's uses, especially for the low point cost. The only drawback to it is the fact that it's a talisman, a group which has some pretty stiff competition for which one to take. The ward save pendants are all talismans, but I suppose you can get around that by taking the ward save armor. Either way, at least we can finally put some decent, non-conditional protection on our characters. There are so many decent options to choose from now it's difficult to decide on what to take.

I think WOC benefits more than most armies from the new common magic items, especially since our 7th ed item choice was pretty lackluster compared to a lot of the other armies out there. I'm strongly considering taking a chaos lord for the first time in a very, very long time because we can actually equip him to be really nasty.

Von Wibble
17-07-2010, 10:04
Some mages care little for those 2 wounds.

Slann 5 wounds, 4+ ward
tzeentzch 3+ ward (I think)

Any mage can take a 4+ ward item if they wish (though it does cost a lot)

If it was no saves of any kind I guess that item would be quite powerful.
As it is taking it is a risk since it costs a lot and at times does nothing.

Against a no armour mage however it will likely kill them, with 1 wound from the miscast and 2 from the scroll = dead wizard.

Anyone been using the scroll lately? any success?
I ran into 1 at a tournament, opponent cast it when I cast dwellers below on his unit but it did maybe 1 wound to my slann and he really wished he had a dispel scroll instead.

That's a fair point. It will at least cause serious pain on any level 2 wizards who try anything silly - though that's scant compensation for the damage they have the potential to unleash.

As far as using the feedback scroll goes, in 5th edition Bufo's Hex Scroll turned casters into toads instead of dispelling the spell. It was allowed to be used even if the spell attempted was with total power. I realise we are a few years beyond 5th edition now, but it at least shows a precedent.

Lets condiser the actual effects of the spells cast

Purple Sun - What if you roll a miscast? Even a result of 2 is going to be bad for you, snice most peolpe are advocating this casting happens in turn 1, when the enemy are still over a foot away, and a 4 isn't particularly life threatening. Lets remember that the Sun then moves randomly (so those low results are more threatening to you than the enemy). I'd say that if you cast PSun in turn 1 you have about a 50% chance of doing anything to inconvenience the enemy and much lower odds (most decent enemies have high I, only the slann looks scared, why not buy him a potion of speed) of really hurting him. I don't think this is actually the best use of the scroll at all.

Dwellers Below - As already admitted its a 50% chance to nobble a wizard lord. Assuming he's within 24", which is not a given. There is also the option to take 3 level 2s instead! Some armies, eg empire, are also lucky enough to have access to cheap magic items improving their odds of passing the test.

For me the problem is more with tha fact that there are loads of spells out there that are game winning used in the right place at the right time. A spell like Mindrazor or even the lowly Harmonic Convergence will usually do enough to turn a combat involving expensive units on both sides from a 50/50 to a likely win. Considering the scroll almost guarantees IF, this should never be the case. I will not be using this item in my own armies as it looks like too much of a crutch. We could get to the point where both players take this, and the first to fire pretty much has the 50% chance to win the game. This is not what I have in mind when I play.

Vsurma
17-07-2010, 10:38
Indeed, it is a cool item, one that at first glance doesn't seem all that powerful but the combination of hero killing spells with the scroll seems over the top.

I suppose game size is a balancing factor also, at 3k you can take 2 wizard lords so losing 1 is not such a problem.

Glabro
17-07-2010, 17:42
Well, we'll see how it goes and what the BRB errata says. And there's no reason not to ban the power scroll if it becomes a staple.

noT_Him
17-07-2010, 20:08
And ban book of hotek ?

Volker the Mad Fiddler
17-07-2010, 20:13
Crimson Amulet may finally appear in an Empire army. Won't save a wizard in combat, but once an Empire wizard is in combat he is as good as dead anyway.

Von Wibble
18-07-2010, 10:27
And ban book of hotek ?

I presume you mean book of hoeth rather than ring of hotek?

The book costs 100 points, and you therefore can't have a ward save on the wizard carrying it. So a feedback scroll will be a suitable counter I think.

Volker - I agree (in fact I alluded to this just a few posts before yours ;) ).

davidvonhauser
18-07-2010, 10:51
Does a feedback scroll work against the book of Hoeth? It says you can use the scroll instead of attempting to dispel, but if they have rolled a double it's Irresistible Force and you don't actually get to attempt a dispel.

Would really like some clarity on this - my regular opponent regularly takes this item!

Vsurma
18-07-2010, 12:28
That is up for debate, some say yes, others say no. I think the argument has gone as far as possible and it is still undecided for a lot of people. You just have to come up with your own interpretation when playing, unless it is a tournament where they will decide.

Jetty Smurf
18-07-2010, 14:28
I had a game today against high elves with a L4 archmage carrying the book of hoeth. My saurus and temple guard had no answer to the IF pit of shades. I really can not believe that spell only has a 17+ required cast value. Very easy to get that when the banner of sorcery is very easily accessible and is sure to provide enough dice to roll a double and reach 13. 13 (+4 from L4 wizard) is imo, too low for a spell capable of destroying a unit so easily.

That being said, it was a blast of a game! Of course I did end up losing, as I failed one of my LOS rolls for my slann ;) but it was still fun, and that is really what is important (well, for me anyway).

At the end of the day, I think pit of shades with book of hoeth is an amazing combo vs lizardmen, but not so sure how it fairs against other armies.

Sandals
18-07-2010, 15:39
There are a lot of nasty spells, but i don;t think any single thing can be described as an automatic "win" button. sure, they may get their bomb to work and you lose something, but generally armies are not based aroung 1 particular thing. there are many units all working together. If someone decides to go all out magic to try and bomb your @$$, then fair enough, not a lot you can do to stop it. but the game is not over, and you can still try and grab a (what now will be) glorious victory from the game. and if you can't, take heart from the fact that your opponant obviously cares more about winning than having a good fun couple of hours playing a game :)

(oh, and for TK and VC players that say "my army DOES revolve around one thing!" - your right. sorry bout that ;) )

Vsurma
18-07-2010, 17:18
I had a game today against high elves with a L4 archmage carrying the book of hoeth. My saurus and temple guard had no answer to the IF pit of shades. I really can not believe that spell only has a 17+ required cast value. Very easy to get that when the banner of sorcery is very easily accessible and is sure to provide enough dice to roll a double and reach 13. 13 (+4 from L4 wizard) is imo, too low for a spell capable of destroying a unit so easily.

That being said, it was a blast of a game! Of course I did end up losing, as I failed one of my LOS rolls for my slann ;) but it was still fun, and that is really what is important (well, for me anyway).

At the end of the day, I think pit of shades with book of hoeth is an amazing combo vs lizardmen, but not so sure how it fairs against other armies.

I dunno, your not likely to lose more than 10 models since it does scatter, 10 saurus is 120pts, 10 TG is 160pts.

It seems like a lot but the points cost isn't all that imo. Of course if you don't have the lore of life your slann will very quickly become a sitting duck (frog)
Dwellers below is 1 higher to cast and can kill characters without los.

Comet can do massive damage with 2d6+1 S5 attacks minimum.

I think we have to get used to magic being more powerful.

Book of hoeth also means no ward saves so just charge the mage, with ANYTHING, units of skink skirmishers are GOOD against the mage. Just suicide units against the mage.

2 terradons (assuming both are alive to get stomp attacks) will on average deal 3! wounds onto a t3 mage, 3!
What this means is that a mage in a weak unit, say a small unit of archers is in real danger from suicide attacks, larger units on the other hand don't like some of the better spells.

Use whichever the situation requires.

Glabro
18-07-2010, 20:15
Agreed - mage hunter units are a very good idea. Scouts are the best for this.

HeroFox
18-07-2010, 20:38
I had a game today against high elves with a L4 archmage carrying the book of hoeth. My saurus and temple guard had no answer to the IF pit of shades. I really can not believe that spell only has a 17+ required cast value. Very easy to get that when the banner of sorcery is very easily accessible and is sure to provide enough dice to roll a double and reach 13. 13 (+4 from L4 wizard) is imo, too low for a spell capable of destroying a unit so easily.

That being said, it was a blast of a game! Of course I did end up losing, as I failed one of my LOS rolls for my slann ;) but it was still fun, and that is really what is important (well, for me anyway).

At the end of the day, I think pit of shades with book of hoeth is an amazing combo vs lizardmen, but not so sure how it fairs against other armies.

Did you have Becalming Cogitation?

ThankGoodness4Ebay
18-07-2010, 20:54
Or maybe, just maybe, not building an uber unit of doom that can be destroyed by a single spell might be a viable path of conduct under these circumstances? Field several more or less equal units, and loosing one won't cost you the game, while loosing the mage lord to the loss of control may equal things out.

Completely agree with you based on my reading of my new book, and I hope it leads to less deathstar units and more (whispers) Armies!

some_scrub
18-07-2010, 21:07
People have been referring to using a Look Out sir Against the template attack of a
purple sun like it describes on page 99. In my book that is under the heading Unusual Shooting Attacks. Do you really get LOS against magic?

Another question: it says under Warmachines that they automatically fail initiative tests, so doesn't a purple sun kill them automatically?

Also, purple sun can be cast into combat just fine, can't it?

Vsurma
18-07-2010, 21:55
Yes, Yes and YEs, too lazy to give page numbers, you can read about it in other threads just poke around a little.

Depulsor
18-07-2010, 23:43
On one hand, I like these spells as they say something like: "in an evil world of magic, nobody is immortal" :D
You cant just bet everything on one uberunit of doom... you need a backup-pan/unit or two... just in case. (Which is a good thing, as it makes the game less onedimensional)
And these spells wont go of more than once or twice a game anyway.

Although I still have to admit, the "roll a 6 and win them game"-thing IS a bit irritating. :rolleyes:

some_scrub
19-07-2010, 00:54
Yes, Yes and YEs, too lazy to give page numbers, you can read about it in other threads just poke around a little.

I've poked around quite a bit both in the rulebook and on the forums, and I can't seem to see where it mentions taking a LOS! roll against magic. Any help?

Also, it's not my intent to derail the thread entirely, but the Purple Sun really is something of an "I win" button against a number of armies. I played my first few (I think it was 4) or so 8th edition games with my VC army and I used a Vampire on a hellsteed with forbidden lore for death and a power scroll. I got a flank shot with purple sun in each of those games, the effectiveness varied from merely being an extremely efficient use of points. That character is 200ish points and just wrecks some armies, but he almost always makes his points back.

Against HE/DE/WE it's not really great, but it does kill a few models which are quite expensive, and can take out the bolt throwers easily. It also has a great chance of wiping out a hydra, treeman, treekin.
Against Dwarfs, Lizards and Ogres, it's completely devastating. Especially against Dwarfs since it completely eats tons of points of warmachines and the blocks take heavy casualties too.
Against other armies it's somewhere between very good and crippling.

To be fair, I did see a game against orcs and goblins where a chaos player used the same strategy used a similar strategy and it didn't completely end the game. 2 giant units of black orcs were completely wiped out, but everything else in the army including a giant and a couple of chariots was completely unscathed by sheer luck.

I think that the biggest problem with the strategy is that it's very cheap to invest in for a number of armies and it completely destroys other armies. The fact that it's completely undispellable and has minimal risk just makes it worse.

Lord Inquisitor
23-07-2010, 18:01
Oh yeah, the FAQ confirms that you can't use scrolls if you aren't allowed to dispel.

Skyros
23-07-2010, 19:30
I've poked around quite a bit both in the rulebook and on the forums, and I can't seem to see where it mentions taking a LOS! roll against magic. Any help?

Well it's explicitly in the FAQ.

In the rulebook, it says you allocate magic wounds as per shooting, and shooting gives you LOS! rolls.

Skyros
23-07-2010, 19:39
As far as 'i-win' spells go, the problem is abilities that let L2 mages know all the spells.

If someone wants to take his L4 wizard lord, put him in a fast/flying mount, and run him all the way out to the edge of my army by himself to cast one of these, then yes, he's going to reap great rewards but also his mage will be in great peril.

The problem is when low level mages who can be easily thrown away can wreak this much havoc - and unless you have a special ability to pick your spells or know all the spells in the lore, an L2 just doesn't have a good enough chance to get the 'right' spell to make this gambit worthwhile.

Lord Inquisitor
23-07-2010, 19:43
Unless you take a Level 4 as well with the same Lore, in which case you can make it a virtual certainty.

Step 1:
Roll Level 4's spells. If you get the spell you want for the Level 2, swap it for signature.
Step 2:
Roll Level 2's spells. If either match any of the Level 4's, then you get to choose your spell. If you get a double, you get to choose your spell. If neither of these are the case, you've almost certainly rolled your spell anyway.

Yes this requires a Level 4 as well, but that's probably something you want anyway in your army as your primary caster for the rest of the game (especially if your wizardbomb blows himself up!)

Lord Solar Plexus
24-07-2010, 06:12
Well, with the FAQ out, I have to agree with the initial thesis - magic *is* an easy "I win!" button and those scrolls are pretty useless. I wonder who's going to spend 50 points on an item that may work once in a blue moon for one turn or so.

satchy
24-07-2010, 12:11
The feedback scroll is nice, they arnt always going to IF/miscast and if they do, well thats good for you. then use the scroll when they use 5/6 power dice and watch as you assinate there character

Jetty Smurf
24-07-2010, 19:30
I dunno, your not likely to lose more than 10 models since it does scatter, 10 saurus is 120pts, 10 TG is 160pts.

It seems like a lot but the points cost isn't all that imo. Of course if you don't have the lore of life your slann will very quickly become a sitting duck (frog)
Dwellers below is 1 higher to cast and can kill characters without los.

Comet can do massive damage with 2d6+1 S5 attacks minimum.

I think we have to get used to magic being more powerful.

Book of hoeth also means no ward saves so just charge the mage, with ANYTHING, units of skink skirmishers are GOOD against the mage. Just suicide units against the mage.

2 terradons (assuming both are alive to get stomp attacks) will on average deal 3! wounds onto a t3 mage, 3!
What this means is that a mage in a weak unit, say a small unit of archers is in real danger from suicide attacks, larger units on the other hand don't like some of the better spells.

Use whichever the situation requires.

I lost 30 saurus warriors. There is a 1/3 chance that it won't scatter. In 2 of the instances (6 turns, 6 casts, 2 are likely not to scatter, go figure) the spell did not scatter and was smack bang on my unit. 5 inch template covers 6 wide 6 deep (25mm bases).

Attacking the mage isn't as easy as it sounds when you don't get to attack first. I don't recall a rule saying the mage has to be on the corner of a unit, though I admit he does seem to end up there a lot on most of the units he moves to.


Did you have Becalming Cogitation?

Yes I did, and the only time that made a difference (he didn't roll many 6's when casting) was when the casting value was made even after the double 6's were removed. Yes, Becalming Cogitation saved the HE mage from a miscast. Doubtful I will consider taking it anymore.


Like I said though, the game was a blast, but it seems magic is a little more.... devastating that I'm used to (at least with I1/2 troops).

some_scrub
24-07-2010, 21:37
Well it's explicitly in the FAQ.

In the rulebook, it says you allocate magic wounds as per shooting, and shooting gives you LOS! rolls.

Yeah. That question was obviously asked before the FAQ was out. There was a thread in the rules forum about it and the conclusion was pretty much that it was unclear how it worked (the first part of your second sentence isn't quite true...not that it matters anymore).

Anyway, post FAQ, I'd say the 1st turn IF purple sun is no longer an "I win" button, but merely a very powerful, very points-efficient choice.

I have never seen a game where it hasn't been worth it - yesterday I played a game where I rolled a 1 and a 2 for my winds of magic on the first turn, and I just left him there out of LO,S! of the scary stuff and used him the next turn to win the game. Admittedly I was pretty lucky that there was somewhere for me to put my mage that wasn't in danger, but I think that situation isn't that rare...

RulesJD
24-07-2010, 21:52
Played one game against Death Magic so far. My opponent had the nads to bring Teclis and beat the snot out of my Dwarves.

Observations:

A) Purple Sun is vicious against Dwarves with initiative 2. However, against other HE, DE or WE with iniative 5, it will have FAR less impact. My runed up grudge thrower took out 14 sword masters in a single shot for far fewer points.

B) Although Teclis made 4 attempts, he rolled a 2 on the artillery dice for a six inch move that missed, and a misfire which hit his own unit. I had the Master Rune of Valaya so instantly dispelled Sun after each attempt. This meant a roughly 50% effective rate even with Teclis. Max range is 30" with an average of 12 to 18".

C) You can only roll 6 dice. Even with a level four caster, that requires a naked average of 3.33 per dice which is only slightly better than 50%. Teclis's ability to count doubles as IF only works if the casting value exceeds 24.

Is it powerful? Heck yes. Is it a reliable game winner? Not really.