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Davemaddocks
12-07-2010, 19:47
Is it just me or are calvalry really under powerd.

you pay more then double the points to put your run of the mill blokes on foot on a hourse fully clad in armour. and for what?

the stead fast rule means that any block unit the cavaly hit will probably not break on the charge. so it means they will be bogged down and killed by sometimes a MUCH cheaper unit.

so what are they good for?

chasing war machines maybe?

well the avg dice roll on 3d6 discarding the lowest is 8.46 and with barding taking away 1" movement they arnt much faster then theyre mates on foot so youd be much better off with a flying monster of some sort or a character on a pegasus like creature.

Fire attacks now cause fear in them aswell.

so what are they the best at... well nothing theres always something cheaper that will do the job better.

Thoughts?

Jericho
12-07-2010, 20:18
Moving quickly, doing damage to tough units, and taking some of the heat off of troops?

Let's face it, cavalry was pretty over the top in 7th. Now you have to combine infantry, monsters and cav to fill different roles.

Not everybody has access to tons of flying units/monsters, and the ones that do often pay WAY more points for fliers than cav. How many units have flaming attacks btw?

I don't see a problem with cav getting a bit weaker, the game was in danger of becoming very boring...

willowdark
12-07-2010, 20:24
Heavy cav usually delivers the highest strength attacks, so they still puch through tough enemies better than infantry usually can. And although they charge just as far, infantry can't march as far, which means cav will still cross the board faster and threaten flanks better.

Wait, wait, wait... I know they don't break ranks anymore, or at least not unless you double the unit, but Supportive attacks don't go to the flank, so heavy cav can largely deliver their ususally higher strength attacks with impunity. charging the flank also prevents the unit from doing a combat reform if they are aalready fighting to the front.

It took me a minute to get over it, but I did. Cav will still have a role in 8th.

Cav is usually the best vehicle for a magic banner, or at least another one if you'd like to bring more than one to the party.

NitrosOkay
12-07-2010, 20:32
Cavalry can't be used alone to great effect in 8th and they need to have a rank.


That said, tying up a huge infantry Horde with a tarpit unit then smashing its flank with a cavalry unit with a rank bonus will usually force them to roll insane courage or flee (flank with ranks denies steadfast AND all their supporting attacks)

Cavalry are a support unit to assist infantry blocks.

TMATK
12-07-2010, 21:39
Cavalry can't be used alone to great effect in 8th and they need to have a rank.


That said, tying up a huge infantry Horde with a tarpit unit then smashing its flank with a cavalry unit with a rank bonus will usually force them to roll insane courage or flee (flank with ranks denies steadfast AND all their supporting attacks)

Cavalry are a support unit to assist infantry blocks.

Getting flanked by a ranked unit only kills the rank bonus for CR. The unit is still steadfast if it has more ranks then the attacker.

NitrosOkay
12-07-2010, 22:01
Getting flanked by a ranked unit only kills the rank bonus for CR. The unit is still steadfast if it has more ranks then the attacker.

Are you sure they're allowed to count as having ranks? Time to re-read that.


Yeah you're right. Still, unless it's a unit of 100 Skavenslaves they won't have more ranks for long...

DDogwood
14-07-2010, 02:21
the stead fast rule means that any block unit the cavaly hit will probably not break on the charge. so it means they will be bogged down and killed by sometimes a MUCH cheaper unit.

Obviously you shouldn't be using cavalry unsupported. Cavalry used to be significantly overpowered, but the new rules fix that. Try using your cavalry to support infantry attacks and you'll find they work fine.

o
so what are they the best at... well nothing theres always something cheaper that will do the job better.
I can't think of a faster ranked unit. Maybe they aren't that much faster at charging than infantry, but they still march twice as fast. They also tend to have much better armor.

WarhammerNoob4ever
14-07-2010, 02:31
i dont think cav have been nerfed.... i think they are fair for what u pay

I had a 5 man naked DP unit (assisted by a Tiranoc Chariot) slam into a 50+ block of skinks (yes i kno not the greatest combat unit) and my units won combat every turn for 4 turns by doing wounds at not gettin wounded back

and DP suck in combat after the charge.... skinks were still gettin 6+/6+

So no, cav cant slam into a horde unit and break through first turn, but remember, most units getting horde/steadfast are gonna be low str, means u get that full 1+/2+ AS ur paying for......

Roark
14-07-2010, 02:34
My Mark of Nurgle knights with the Banner of Rage disagree that they are underpowered.

;-)

Blackknight1239
14-07-2010, 03:20
Let's face it. Unless your unit is a Bretonnian Lance, you have no chance to charge in alone and between a large ranked unit (the Bret lance has a small chance to do so). Basically, heavy cavalry will be best used as smallish units, hitting the flanks to take less attacks back. If you have a ranked unit already engaged, delivering another 5-6 Str 5 attacks would help you push you over the edge.

BISION
14-07-2010, 04:21
just a house rule me and a friend started using, we havent discussed it with the players at our local store yet, but we decided to discount the stepup rule against cav that charged. it dosnt make a hudge diffrence, tho it does increase you chance of winning combat, but the unit will still likaly be steadfast. it just made sense to us that chances are in the less than a min of combat that that charge would represent the majority of the reciving units troops front line would be disoriented, pushed aside or well...dead. and the few that were on the ball would represent those that attack back. just a idea we had.

Jadiel
14-07-2010, 07:50
well the avg dice roll on 3d6 discarding the lowest is 8.46 and with barding taking away 1" movement they arnt much faster then theyre mates on foot so youd be much better off with a flying monster of some sort or a character on a pegasus like creature.


How did you get 8.46? Every time I try and calculate the mean, I get 8, which seems too low (and a little scary when fleeing from combat!)... Any mathhammer experts around?

I realise this makes cavalry even worse, but I would agree that (especially heavy) cavalry have overshadowed infantry units for too long, and that more incentives for units supporting each other will lead to a better game.

Khal
14-07-2010, 08:11
I used to play an AllCavarly WoC army in 6th&7th... but I won't use them anymore. The fact that you need a rank to negate ranks meas Chaos Knights should spend 200 pts in an extra rank ( and extra puch, for sure ). Empire knights should spend 130 pts, which keeps being too pricey IMO. And remember that if you lose one model you don't negate ranks anymore...

RCgothic
14-07-2010, 08:42
[Withdrawn - maths was correct, but my understanding of the rules wasn't.]

acx
14-07-2010, 08:50
I used to play an AllCavarly WoC army in 6th&7th... but I won't use them anymore. The fact that you need a rank to negate ranks meas Chaos Knights should spend 200 pts in an extra rank ( and extra puch, for sure ). Empire knights should spend 130 pts, which keeps being too pricey IMO. And remember that if you lose one model you don't negate ranks anymore...

I'm pretty sure Chaos Knights will grind almost all infantry into paste even with a frontal charge. You'll spend about 4 combat turns killing infantry to the last man instead of breaking everything you charge.

Jadiel
14-07-2010, 09:19
By my count the average of 3D6 is 10.5"

The sum of every possible result is 2268, and the number of results is 216. Feel free to check my math.

The standard deviation is roughly equal to 3.

67.5% of charges will be in the range 8" - 13"
84.2% of charges will be 8" or further.

You're right about 3D6, but here we drop the lowest.

I redid my math in excel, and the OP is correct, the mean is indeed 8.46. I must have been autorounding somewhere when I did it last time.

Incidently, the standard deviation is lower also, at around 2.2

acx
14-07-2010, 09:19
How did you get 8.46? Every time I try and calculate the mean, I get 8, which seems too low (and a little scary when fleeing from combat!)... Any mathhammer experts around?

I realise this makes cavalry even worse, but I would agree that (especially heavy) cavalry have overshadowed infantry units for too long, and that more incentives for units supporting each other will lead to a better game.

3D6 drop lowest the probabilities work out like this:

12 - 16/216
11 - 27/216
10 - 34/216
9 - 36/216
8 - 34/216
7 - 27/216
6 - 19/216
5 - 12/216
4 - 7/216
3 - 3/216
2 - 1/216

The expected value is 8.45.

Expected value of charge range for 7" move calvary over an infinite sample size is 15.45" vs 11" charge range for 4" move infantry over the same sample size.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-07-2010, 09:56
Is it just me or are calvalry really under powerd.


That's just you. :)



you pay more then double the points to put your run of the mill blokes on foot on a hourse fully clad in armour. and for what?


1. Comparing them on a model to model basis is misleading. My block here costs 195, my unit of knights only 138.
2. To help you win the game.



well the avg dice roll on 3d6 discarding the lowest is 8.46 and with barding taking away 1" movement they arnt much faster then theyre mates on foot


The average march move is 14" (the min and max march move, too). The average march move of my INF is 8" (again, the min andmax, too).

6" more always is quite a lot faster.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
14-07-2010, 10:19
My Mark of Nurgle knights with the Banner of Rage disagree that they are underpowered.

;-)

Ditto.

Nixon