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Maoriboy007
12-07-2010, 22:27
Hi there, a quick and ugly report on 8th edition

The Armies:

VC:
VC Lord Level 3 wizard
Dreadknight Summon Skeletons Eternal Hatred Dark Acolyte
Crown of the Damned Sword of Anti Heros Potion of Strength Guilded Curiass

Wight King BSB
Mounted with GW and Drakenhoff BAnner

30 Skeletons FC and Hellfire Banner

Vampire
Forbidden Lore (Beasts) Summon Ghouls
Helm of Command and Black Periapt

Necromancer (Vanhels)
Feedback Scroll

11 Skeletons with FC

32 Grave Guard with GW
FC and BAnner of BArrows

30 Ghouls with Ghast

Black Coach

Varghulf

DE (approximatly):

Malekeith on Foot

Sorceress L2 (Shadow Lore)
Seal of Ghrond

Hag BSB with Cauldron

5 Cold One Knights FC

20-30 RXB

30 DE Executioners

30 Corsairs

DOW Cannon

Game 1:

Direct engagement:
(Played Diagonally across the Table)
A couple of Forests a Nehekaran Acroaplipse and a swmp.

Not much to say about this game really.
VC take the first turn and raise several models and burn a couple of RXBs
Inb the DE first turn my unit of Ghouls is basically wiped off the planet by Spells and Breath Weapons.
Then my lord on Steed gets shot by the cannon fails his ward and promptly takes 6 wounds.
My army promptly starts to crumble into oblivion and rather than playing t a predictable end we decide to start over.

On a side note, the cannon was a nastly surprise. While not forbidden we haven't played them since DoC were released and I got general frowns of disapprovel for bringing one in my VC army.
This one apparantly appeared in general protest that DE Repeater Throwers are worthless due to having only 2 wounds.
Fair enough, I wonder what and empire cannon will look like with lots of skeletons glued to the barrel.

Game 2
The Watch Tower:
Temple of Skulls (important terrain!) and A haunted Mansion and 2 buildings surrounding the Watchtower. A couple of Forests and obstacle take no part in the game.

VC Turn 1:
In this game my Lord dosnt have Summon Horde which is Dissapointing.
I move my Grave Guard as close as possible to the Tower so I can take it next turn.
My army moves up concealing as much as possible behind the buildings, especially my mounted BSB and GEneral who can hide from the cannon!
My Necromancer and Beast Vampire take their bunker unit into the building closest to my Deployment Zone.

DE Turn one:
The Cannon Shades and more importantly malekeith are on the Temple of Skulls.
My opponant contacts the Dark Gods in an attempt to Empower malekeith and rolls....a one!
Displeased the Gods smite Malekeith down and I consider renaming the terrain the Gem of Blood Temple.
Pit of Shades Xbows and the Hydra reduce the Ghouls to about 8 models and the cannon takes a rank from my GG.

As his army doesn't automatically collapse my opponant decides to play on.

I'll summerise the highlights of the game

The battle for the watchtower was furious as my GG garrisoned it and were immediatly and constantly challenged by the Executioners.
With my Beast wizard giving the unit his WS and +1 Toughness the unit holds on despite only being able to offer token raising ability from magic(my lord rolled a 1 every attempt at single dice casting).
In the end the GG hold off the executioners with 10 GG models to 1-2 Executioners remaining

My black coach is ethereal in turn 3, the one cannon shot overshooting before it becomes ethereal.An IF pit of Shades making me sweat before scattering to oblivion. The coach takes out the shades over the next two turns but doesn't do much else.

The few remaining Ghouls charge and hold up the Hydra for a turn before being mowed down, long enough for my Varghulf to block its obvious target, my VC Beast wizard hiding in the building. The Varghulf and the Hydra duke it out for the rest of the GAme, the Varghulf reduced to a single wound, but surviving to a single round of lucky regens and the Hydras inability to hit afterwards.

Due to most every other unit being in combat my Lords Skeleton Bunker unit receives most of the magic and Xbow fire, 30 odd skeletons being reduced to about 10 models in a single turn.
However a Feedback scroll kills the level 2 DE wizard in return.
With the BSB and Lord in the unit they are still able to take a charge from the corsairs (mainly due to focusing a lot of KB attacks from the cauldron and failing to rolll a 6 on my BSB) and they then roll a high break test and run!
The VC continue to chase them in thier own turn, avoiding a carefully prepared flank charge of the CoKs

In spite of Malekeiths premature doom, magic phases were fairly even until the very end, basically rolling high in the last 3 magic phases. However despite a full tank the black coach sucked up three in all but the last phase. Generally these were used to keep the Grave Guard alive against the executioner, otherwise they would have been blasted away with little effort.

Basically my opponant had some awful luck in the second game, unlucky scatters with his spells, some awful combat rolls and a vital failed Ld test.
Most of all killing Malekeith in turn one, but thats the risk you take when dealing with the Chaos gods, my Vampire Lord will stick with the unnatural gifts he already has thank you very much.

w3rm
13-07-2010, 12:44
Cool bat rep sounds like Malekith got what he deserved.

Malorian
13-07-2010, 13:50
I was completely against forbidden lore in 7th, but in 8th I'm starting to like the idea.

Thanks for the report :)

Golradir
16-07-2010, 18:54
I've used exactly the same vampire hero (with beasts) in a few games and came away unimpressed. The signature spell can be nice, but between our lords that don't really need buffing that much, a couple damage spells that I think are inferior to the vampire lore versions, and the troublesome transformation of kadon (turning into a hydra is the most viable option, but considering he's a 200 pt hero and likely to die when the spell ends if the hydra gets into combat and takes 2+ wounds, it doesn't seem cost-effective), I prefer taking black arts for the extra power dice and using him for invocation to keep grave guard and others at fighting strength.

As you noticed, unless we have enough magic power to keep our units somewhat healed up, combat proves incredibly troublesome. So, while the book lores are fun and maybe useful in a 4000 pt game or so, I prefer vampires for 3000 and below currently.

Smithpod68
17-07-2010, 01:40
He brought a DoW cannon! On no did the GW police arrest him on the spot!? My friends and I continue to use DoW stuff. Obviously,you couldn't use it in a tourney,but in a one off game,who cares!

Zso Sahaal
17-07-2010, 08:23
haha its always nice to have your oppents general die early in the game, especially when your opponent decides to do the job for you :)

LaurentleBete
18-07-2010, 00:03
How are you finding the Vampires with 8th edition? I've not had a battle with them yet, been focused on my Beasts... Who've proven themselves to be the endless disappointments they were always destined to be :)

The Lore of the Vampires seems even better now, with every spell reliably cast by a Lord on three dice. Forbidden Lore + Power Scrolls on suicide vamps seems a horrible combination aswell...

I don't think they've come out of it as badly as people say they have.

Asmodai48
18-07-2010, 04:36
How much did you spend on characters? Looks like 950ish, imo drop a char. Personaly not a fan of drakenhof anymore, fire attacks easy access nerfed it hard.

Maoriboy007
18-07-2010, 06:34
He brought a DoW cannon! On no did the GW police arrest him on the spot!? My friends and I continue to use DoW stuff. Obviously,you couldn't use it in a tourney,but in a one off game,who cares!

It was more that they have been frowned upon since someone first used them against DoC (ie me) and thus haven't been used in a very long time. Not a rule as such but generally disapproved of. More importantly, it means I can take them too now! Yes please.


haha its always nice to have your oppents general die early in the game, especially when your opponent decides to do the job for you :)

With so many nerfs, you'd think they'd throw VC at leaST one bone and get rid of this now outdated rule by now.


How are you finding the Vampires with 8th edition? I've not had a battle with them yet, been focused on my Beasts... Who've proven themselves to be the endless disappointments they were always destined to be :).

I'll have to admit that part of my success so far has been due to no small amount of luck. Fortunate magic phases has been majorly important, as well as some abominable combat rolling from my opponants.
Also I am more used to large blocks of infantry than my opponants, my old list predominantly featuring large starting sizes, but this small advantage probably wont last long, especially as all other armies gained as VC lost in this department.


The Lore of the Vampires seems even better now, with every spell reliably cast by a Lord on three dice. Forbidden Lore + Power Scrolls on suicide vamps seems a horrible combination aswell... .

The lore is still good, but not what it was. Vanhels is gone from an admittedly overpowered spell to one of the least powerful. Invocation did'nt really deserve the hit it took, but summon undead horde is infinitly more useful.
The fact is magic is even more vital to the undead, but any reliability was pretty brutally taken away without any sort of compensation.
The fact is you have to sacrifice a lot of your combat options now to make sure you can keep some kind of edge on the rest of your army.


I don't think they've come out of it as badly as people say they have.

They haven't done well at all out of any of the changes, I can't really see anywhere that they gained instead of lost.
Their roops are still pretty poor fighters for the points paid, and most of their advantages that you expected in exchange are gone now. Fear and MAgic nerfed, still crumble in combat while other armies gain steadfast. Losing wards and regeneration against crumbling was plain unessesary and actually ticked me off to the point where I considered giving up for a moment. Just the fact they thought VC hadn't been nerfed enough (especially compared to nearly every other army) upset me more than I cared to admit.


How much did you spend on characters? Looks like 950ish, imo drop a char. Personaly not a fan of drakenhof anymore, fire attacks easy access nerfed it hard.

Cosidering the hard nerf the banner has taken, I'm reconsidering it too, especially as it costs as much as a character itself.
Characters are still lifeblood to VC, each one has a specific purpouse. The Lord and Wight King give combat support, The Helm vamp buffs units with magic and Helm, the Necromancer is a cheap scroll caddy.

shay
18-07-2010, 10:13
Hehe, who ever said that 25% lords would destroy the metagame? First game your lord die in turn 1, second game his lord meets his ancestors in turn 1. Guess you did not expect to see that.

Nice bat-rep. Woud have been even better with some pics though :)

How do you think Lore of beasts worked with the Vamps? I can see that the signature spell suits 'em fine, but otherwise it doesn't strike me as the number one lore for your army (I might be missing out on some info though - haven't had the chance to read all the new spells).

Maoriboy007
18-07-2010, 20:02
Hehe, who ever said that 25% lords would destroy the metagame? First game your lord die in turn 1, second game his lord meets his ancestors in turn 1. Guess you did not expect to see that.

Nice bat-rep. Woud have been even better with some pics though :)

How do you think Lore of beasts worked with the Vamps? I can see that the signature spell suits 'em fine, but otherwise it doesn't strike me as the number one lore for your army (I might be missing out on some info though - haven't had the chance to read all the new spells).

Cannons are going to make the game interesting indeed. The new lookout sir rules mean put characters on foot or bring cavalry. I have yet to make up my mind.

Beasts does mesh well with the undead magic princial, which is generally buff your troops for combat. The signature spell is nice, means GWs on Grave Guard is not so nessesary. Making your characters into combat monsters is nice too. The hunters spear can be a threat, and none of the spells are too hard to cast.

Romulus68
20-07-2010, 15:39
How are you finding the Vampires with 8th edition? I've not had a battle with them yet, been focused on my Beasts... Who've proven themselves to be the endless disappointments they were always destined to be :)

The Lore of the Vampires seems even better now, with every spell reliably cast by a Lord on three dice. Forbidden Lore + Power Scrolls on suicide vamps seems a horrible combination aswell...

I don't think they've come out of it as badly as people say they have.


I played High Elves twice this past Sunday with my Vampires. Had my BUTT handed to me twice!!

Aluinn
21-07-2010, 15:50
On the subject of making VC magic more reliable, I think you need to be able to really spam Invocation, and thus take some Necros with it, probably instead of Vanhel's just to save on points. That and a MotBA Vamp should render you some fairly reliable raising. As it stood in that game only two characters could even attempt Invocation (of which one wasn't likely to want to), so it wasn't really going anywhere.

The odd thing about the new magic is that old Lores need to be able to spam a lot of spells in order to take advantage of their extremely low costs (by 8th Ed. standards), which often means having numerous, cheap casters, as opposed to the armies using new Lores which will want a single powerful caster, maybe with one more backing them up. It is tempting to take the new rulebook Lores via Forbidden Lore, but the issue is that they really benefit most from having a single wizard chucking almost the whole pool of dice at a +4-5 modifier, and thus don't mesh well in overall magic strategy with Lore of the Vamps you'll still have on everything else.

So far, the most reliable magic setup I can find (assuming a Level 4 caster in the opposing army) is something like a Level 3-4 Vamp with MotBA, plus ~3 cheap Necros (and any additional combat Vamps) spamming Invocation on 1D6 (easily dispelled but still requiring dice, of course). If you need to get some Invocations off it's pretty easy to bait a few Dispel Dice out by attempting something scary like a Curse of Years or Summon Horde on 3D6 first. If you're pretty good on numbers you can do the reverse and they can either let you top everything off or deal with Gaze+Curse or something. It's not perfect (the Necros/hero-Vamps failing on a 1-2 makes them not supremely reliable even if no dispel is attempted, though you can of course throw 2 at it for a near-guarantee if your opponent runs out and you have enough left), but it seems to be okay overall. The key is your general Power Dice superiority through MotBA combined with channeling--you can get a 5/6 or better chance to channel one dice fairly easily, plus a decent chance for more than that. Judicious use of Black Periapt makes this even better.

There may be some superior approach out there but that's what I've come up with so far, anyway.

(As a side note, with the huge units we've been seeing, I highly recommend getting Curse of Years on any double if you fail to roll it naturally; it can be really brutal, if not quite so much as Final Transmutation, and at its casting value is probably one of the most undercosted spells in the game right now. Think of the fact that your opponent will need to dispel it later if you succeed as an added bonus, since although they can easily do so, it gimps their dice pool, they've still lost 1/6 of a Horde in all likelihood, and if they should roll badly and fail, well, then it gets downright evil.)