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MontytheMighty
13-07-2010, 05:39
Estimate the Population of the Imperium

Here’s my go at it, using Lexicanum as my guide

The Imperium consists of roughly a million worlds.

These are broken down roughly into
Astartes Homeworld
Agri World
Cardinal World
Civilised World
Dead World
Death World
Desert World
Feral World
Feudal World
Forge World
Hive World
Ice World
Industrial World
Jungle World
Knight World
Mining World
Ocean World
Paradise World
Penal World
Research Station
Shrine World (list courtesy of Lex)

I don’t think this list is that great because there seems to be a lot potential overlap (for instance, couldn’t a world be a jungle world, a deathworld, and a feral world?)
…but anyway, according to Lex, civilized worlds are the most common. Civilized worlds are self-sufficient worlds probably much more developed than 21st century earth.

So I’m going to go with a conservative estimate that the average population of all worlds in the Imperium is 1 billion, taking into account ice worlds, desert worlds, ocean words etc.

1 billion times 1 million is 1 quadrillion (I think, correct me if I’m wrong). Now say 5% of the total population, men and women, serve in the Imperial Guard (including PDF’s). That means the main Imperial military is 50 trillion strong. Divide that among 1 million worlds and you have 50,000 guardsmen per world…still kind of low (oh yeah and don’t forget that one space marine or sister of battle…)

What do you guys think?

Polaria
13-07-2010, 05:52
1 billion times 1 million is 1 quadrillion (I think, correct me if I’m wrong). Now say 5% of the total population, men and women, serve in the Imperial Guard (including PDF’s). That means the main Imperial military is 50 trillion strong. Divide that among 1 million worlds and you have 50,000 guardsmen per world…still kind of low (oh yeah and don’t forget that one space marine or sister of battle…)

What do you guys think?

There is no way 5% of the total population serves in Imperial Guard. Most Imperial worlds don't have a single member of Imperial Guard anywhere within 5 light year radius of them. There is only PDF present. If you look at the fluff even the extremely militaristic worlds like Cadia, Vostroy, Krieg etc. have only a few dozen guard regiments on permanent station, translating to couple of tens of thousands of guardsmen.

I think that 5% is strongly overassuming the amount of militarization in Imperium... Yes, the whole Imperial society revolves around warfare, but most of it is production of warmaterial and resources which the IG and Navy use in huge quantities. All fluff sources points to "masses of millions, living and working as little more than slaves". When compared to average serf Imperial Guardsman is a rare, welltrained individual.

You have to remember that Imperial technology is not the robot-operated assembly-line style of mass production and thus just weaving the uniform, building the lasgun, and forging the bayonet used by a guardsman requires far more manpower than in modern world. Hell, many space marine chapters have their own worlds with billions of people and they still can't keep more than a few dozen land raiders in their inventory, meaning its highly unlikely a world can even produce more than a few land raiders a year.

BobtheInquisitor
13-07-2010, 05:52
This method has already been done. If you go to this thread about the Imperium's fleet size and scroll most of the way down, you'll find the population numbers. (http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=108388&start=25) Long story short: The population of the Imperium can be roughly estimated to be in the low quadrillions, maybe even a few tens of quadrillions. The Imperium should have roughly tens or hundreds of trillions of Imperial Guardsmen alone. PDF forces should be in the hundreds of trillions all told.

DoombringerATT
13-07-2010, 05:58
I've done the math from the 3rd Edition Rulebook's Aggregates when we had a discussion like this on Tau Online.


Based on the aggregate value, we get the theoretical ratio of worlds out of an approximate million.

---

Gamma Class - Civilized Worlds (350,000)

Pop: 5,250,000,000,000 - 3,500,000,000,000,000

Alpha Class - Agri Worlds (200,000)

Pop: 3,000,000,000 - 200,000,000,000

Eta Class - Hive worlds (140,000)

Pop: 14,000,000,000,000,000 - 70,000,000,000,000,000

Phi Class - Forge Worlds (100,000)

Pop: 100,000,000,000 - 1,500,000,000,000,000

Phi-Lambda Class - Feral Worlds (80,000)

Pop: 8,000,000,000 - 400,000,000,000

Delta-Tau Class - Death Worlds (60,000)

Pop: 60,000,000 - 900,000,000,000

Mu Class - Feudal Worlds (40,000)

Pop: 400,000,000,000 - 20,000,000,000,000

Delta Class - Dead Worlds (20,000)

Pop: 0 - 20,000

Rho Class - Research Station (10,000)

Pop: 1,000,000 - 5,000,000,000

---

Based on these numbers, we have a population range of...

*calculator noises*

Total Population of the Imperium:

14,005,761,061,000,000 - 75,021,505,000,020,000

That's anywhere from 14 Quadrillion people to 75 Quadrillion people, the main bulk of which live on Hive Worlds, with Civilized and Forge Worlds coming in at a somewhat close second and third place.

Hope this helps.

---

A slightly more awe-inspiring observation:

There are even more Orks!?!?


As far as Guardsmen go;


[...] using the aggregate values found in the 3rd Edition Rulebook, gave us a total Imperial population of 14 to 75 Quadrillion humans.

If we assume the Imperial Guard make up roughly 1% of the total Imperial population, that's 140-750 trillion warriors fighting in the Emperor's name.

If we assume a value of .01%, that's still 14-75 trillion Guard.

.001%, you ask? 1.4-7.5 trillion...

Just how elite are the Imperial Guard? Surely more than .001% of the Imperium's population would wish to serve their glorious Emperor in battle, right?

I mean, even the U.S. military consists of something like just under 1% of its population...

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-07-2010, 06:07
I think you are way off. Or at least, using the wrong method. Since worlds in the Imperium can range from a remote listening post with 3 people and a bunch of servitors to untold billions on say a Hive World the average number of all of them isn't really that interesting. The variation is simply to get for that number to mean a whole lot.

I also think your estimate of a billion is fairly conservative. The Imperium might not be the most high tech empire ever, but they got a decent tech level and a billion people on a whole planet (assuming something vaguely earth sized) isn't that many. You got present day countries with more people than that, so even in-hospital worlds like worlds dominated by ice and snow or arid/desert conditions should be able to support more than that.

And then of course there is the troop numbers (traditionally a big 40k weakness). 50.000 troops isn't even remotely adequate to defend a planet from anything. North Korea supposedly have a million men under arms. The ISAF forces in Afghanistan numbers around the 120k mark. The Allied Forces landed around 156.000 troops on D-Day (not counting the naval or air force troops taking part).

I don't care what sort of equipment a PDF have, but you would need way higher troop numbers than is being mentioned to take and hold entire planets (and no, no matter how elite Space Marines are there is no way they can work as written).

But of course it depends on what you are going for. Are you going to a more "realistic" guess or do you just want something that will fit with the 40k setting? If it's the latter any number that sounds neat will do, and so a billion per world and a quadrillion (or whatever) in total are nice round easy to understand numbers.

Polaria
13-07-2010, 06:34
Doombringers compariso to US Military (a little less than 1% of population) misses an important fact: Imperial Guard =/= Imperial Military. PDF is definitely more numerous than IG. Fluff points to at least 10 PDF regiments for every IG regiment... probably much more. Imperial Navy is not like US Navy. Imperial Navy is hugely dependant on massive quantities of manpower. Now lets think about this: Lets assume 10 IG regiments making a planetfall. 10 regiments is something like 50000-60000 troops. It takes at least a few troop transport ships to move the regiment. Probably more. Each carrier is protected by asquadron of 2-6 escort ships and the whole armada has a couple of cruisers and one grand cruiser to provide firepower. You suddenly notice that the number of crewmen serving on the ships transporting the IG regiments is easily more than the number of guardsmen...

Assuming 1-2% of Imperial population serves in all Imperial military combined...

95% of these are PDF
3% of these are Navy
2% of these are Imperial Guard

Yes, its still means there are trillions of IG. However, there is still way more PDF and Navy.

MontytheMighty
13-07-2010, 06:59
Now say 5% of the total population, men and women, serve in the Imperial Guard (including PDF’s).

what I meant here is that Imperial Guard plus non-Imperial Guard PDF's equal 5% of Imperium's total population, maybe IG is 1% and non-IG defence forces consist of 4%...something like that

Havock
13-07-2010, 07:23
One moment.

*ponders*

I can say with reasonable certainty that it's a large number indeed.

DoombringerATT
13-07-2010, 07:36
@ Polaria

Well, admittedly, the thread I quoted myself from had a little bit of a different context, but yeah, your breakdown is probably pretty accurate for the bigger picture of manpower.

That's why I included different percentages (1%, .01%, .001%) of Guard in my above post; to take into consideration that the number of Guard are vastly outnumbered by their PDF garrison counterparts. I'm in favor of the .1%-0.1% range, personally.

The StarDestroyer.net website linked here earlier in the thread has breakdowns elsewhere of the estimated size of the Imperial Navy, including aggregates of ship class.

I think we could probably get a reasonable estimate of the number of personnel in the Imperial Navy from that, in a similar manner as how I arrived at the Imperium's entire population, no?

Jackmojo
13-07-2010, 08:18
I'd argue the percentage under arms ought to be vastly greater since the Imperium is on permanent "Total War" footing, so instead of comparing them to the modern US, something like WWII Germany is likely more appropriate (although numbers for them are not super reliable), which gives us a ratio of about 1 in 5 serving in the Wehrmacht over the course of the war (18.2 million out of 90 million).

Of course that's only the Wehrmacht but it also includes non combatant folks.

My favorite idea is how fast they can replace casualties though, since if we assume a low ball of 14 quadrillion humans, with only 5% under arms, and a low growth rate of 1.1% (Earth's in 2009), that gives us about 13 million new soldiers a minute :)

Jack

Idaan
13-07-2010, 09:48
You can't be in a permanent total war. The whole point of mobilising 1 in 5 men only in the direst need is that the population and economy will collapse after a few years. The vast majority of the Imperium (like the Calixis sector from DH) don't see a full scale war for millennia, with the regiments being constantly shipped off to warzones, never to return home.

Polaria
13-07-2010, 11:58
You can't be in a permanent total war. The whole point of mobilising 1 in 5 men only in the direst need is that the population and economy will collapse after a few years. The vast majority of the Imperium (like the Calixis sector from DH) don't see a full scale war for millennia, with the regiments being constantly shipped off to warzones, never to return home.

Agree fully with this. At its peak Wehrmacht did mobilize huge percentage of population but it only resulted in Germans running out of food, gasoline and ammunition. In the end the total fall of the whole nation and the army happened in less than three years after that.

There is a quite recent example of ultra-militarized society on earth which lasted for more than few years: Soviet Union. Right after the WWII Soviet Army had 11,8 million men and women, but soon cut that down to 2,8 million. Later in cold war they rapidly expanded military spending, reaching at peak 5,3 million soldiers (about 2% of population) which pretty soon wrecked the state economy, causing in complete disintegration of the whole Soviet state.

Historically even 5% of the population is VERY high and unsustainable on the long run. Seeing as Imperium has managed to survive for 10 000 years without wrecking its own economy I would have to assume the total militarization to be closer to 1%.

malika
13-07-2010, 12:04
Could you count Forgeworlds as part of the Imperium? Technically speaking the Imperium and Adeptus Mechanicus are an alliance rather than the latter being an integrated part of the Imperium of Man.

RCgothic
13-07-2010, 12:11
North Korea has a conscription rate of 1/25 or 4% of its population. 20% of men between 17 and 54 are in the regular forces, and its economic growth in 2009 of 3.7% trumped the global average of -0.8% by a large margin.

It has sustained this state since the Korean War.

Thanatos_elNyx
13-07-2010, 12:15
A Googolplex of Humans

Lord Zarkov
13-07-2010, 12:28
North Korea has a conscription rate of 1/25 or 4% of its population. 20% of men between 17 and 54 are in the regular forces, and its economic growth in 2009 of 3.7% trumped the global average of -0.8% by a large margin.

It has sustained this state since the Korean War.
It's also starving...

Sai-Lauren
13-07-2010, 12:41
Large enough that if you lined them up, one Inquisitor would start to shoot them all for heretically standing around idle whilst there was The Emperor's work that still needed to be done. :D

A hive city has billions of people in it, and a Hive world has multiple hive cities - there could be 100 billion people on one Hive World just for starters. And conversely, an agri-world might only have a few hundred-thousand to a million people on it, most of those living in cities devoted to food processing and shipping it off world, and with relatively few farmers spread over the worlds surface.

Add in all those who don't live on major worlds which would be covered by the Administratum offices of a main world - those who live on the space stations, asteroid miners and moon colonists and so on, plus all the non-Imperial employed transients such as commerical freighter crews.

If you can use SI prefixes for populations (and considering Megadeath is the term for one million dead people I'd say yes you can), as an absolute minimum about 20 Peta-persons - or 2*10^16 people, where the population of Planet Earth today is around 6.5-7 billion/ 7 Giga-persons/ 7*10^9.

Other races:
Chaos/ Renegade: Probably similar numbers, but very fragmented.
Orks - again, probably about the same and also fragmented.
Eldar (including Harlequins and Exodites): 10s of billions, very fragmented and scattered around.
Dark Eldar: Single figure to very low double figure billions, very concentrated in one area, but extremely politically fragmented.
Tau: Probably about the same as Eldar, but much more concentrated in one area, and highly politically unified.
Necrons: Awake - maybe hundreds of thousands, but near indestructable. Dormant - tens to hundreds of millions maybe?
Tyrannids: Depends on what you class as the Tyrannid species :) - if it's only the Norn Queens, maybe less than 100. If it's all their creatures, then all the infiltration creatures, plus everything on the front line worlds (devoured worlds will be totally lifeless remember).

Post
13-07-2010, 14:11
North Korea has a conscription rate of 1/25 or 4% of its population. 20% of men between 17 and 54 are in the regular forces, and its economic growth in 2009 of 3.7% trumped the global average of -0.8% by a large margin.

It has sustained this state since the Korean War.

The numbers simply can not be trusted. The North Korean government claims 3.7% overall, but the organizations like the IMF estimate closer to 1.5%, even then Korea is not a Capitalist economy, nearly all income is consumed in maintaining massive military spending. Still, I would say their might be great similarities between how the Imperium runs and Korea does.

FrankieKhainor
13-07-2010, 15:07
I ask my calculator..., '42 error'.

In the 'imperium' (worlds supposedly and definitely imperialised about 50,000,000,000,000,000 (quadrillion) people. In the Imperium (worlds truly faithful to the god emperor) about 1,000,000,000,000,000 people. So 1/50 of the entire 'imperium' is truly faithful, by my reckoning.

lord_zyplon
13-07-2010, 15:30
Doombringers compariso to US Military (a little less than 1% of population) misses an important fact: Imperial Guard =/= Imperial Military. PDF is definitely more numerous than IG. Fluff points to at least 10 PDF regiments for every IG regiment... probably much more. Imperial Navy is not like US Navy. Imperial Navy is hugely dependant on massive quantities of manpower.

Spot on with the PDF. The Navy really isn't big on manpower, though... at least compared to the USN.

A standard Imperial cruiser has a complement of around ten thousand (+/- as much as 50%). Navy cruisers are what, 5km long, a kilometer high, half a kilometer wide? That's 4,000 men / cubic km (again, give or take).

From Wikipedia, the Nimitz-class supercarriers are ~.3km long, ~.08km wide, and ~.07km high. With a crew of 3200 (not including the air complement), that's a crew density of almost two million men / cubic km. Including the air compliment, you double* the crew, increasing the density to 4M/cublic km. Granted, neither ship is a perfect rectangular shape, but that's a difference of three orders of magnitude!

Perry-class frigates are worse - they approach 7.5M/km^3.

*Yes, it's less than double. When dealing with numbers so large, the difference becomes less important.

Hellebore
13-07-2010, 15:57
However, the logic that because a Nimitz has a certain density requires that an imperial cruiser does, is flawed.

Large chunks of an imperial cruiser will be engines (which run to about 1/3rd the length of the ship), guns the size of buildings, storage, metres thick armour and so on. An imperial cruiser isn't a tin can with lots of free space.


As for the conscription rate, the eye of terror codex lists Cadia's at a ridiculously high level (I can't find the book at the moment to get the figures).

Hellebore

lord_zyplon
13-07-2010, 16:24
However, the logic that because a Nimitz has a certain density requires that an imperial cruiser does, is flawed.

Large chunks of an imperial cruiser will be engines (which run to about 1/3rd the length of the ship), guns the size of buildings, storage, metres thick armour and so on. An imperial cruiser isn't a tin can with lots of free space.


Agreed. Multiple sources state that 1/3 figure (though, it's general engineering, reactors/engines and so forth), and there are plenty of descriptions of the massive magazines containing torpedoes.

Presuming this cutaway (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aN1IpfURBWo/SSdq2pAJnxI/AAAAAAAAALQ/LHjXeq1WXUw/s1600-h/SHIP_CVN-71_Theodore_Roosevelt_Cutaway_lg.jpg) is accurate, the Nimitz-class is not dissimilar. The cutaway shows the "engine room" stretching forward of the island, the massive void space that is the hangar, and an interesting room near the stern that services jet engines. It doesn't explicitly show aviation fuel bunkers, reactor spaces, or aviation magazines.

I don't think that both types of ships require a certain crew density; instead, I think that the density reflects on the need for manpower (how much automation the ship has, for example).

Col. Tartleton
13-07-2010, 17:03
I'm going to as many as they can feed which explains the constant wars.

Gen.Steiner
14-07-2010, 02:43
Rather than repeat myself, I will note firstly that the number-crunching that puts the population somewhere around 14-75 quadrillion is accurate.

Secondly, the planetary defence force is not one organisation. It is, in fact, many PDFs - each being raised and trained and equipped differently. Consider them to be akin to our armies; locally raised for defence only. A Hive World's PDF may be identical to its Guard tithes, while an Agri-World may only muster a few thousand ill-equipped farm militias.

What is important is that the PDF are seperate from the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Guard is tithed and the PDF MUST be maintained, both by dictate of the Lex Imperialis. Therefore, when calculating the size of the Imperial Guard, the best figure is 0.1 or 0.01% of the population, and the PDF to be around 1% of the population.

The Imperial Navy is vast, but vaster still is the logistical arm of the Guard and Navy - the Adeptus Munitorum. Assuming for a moment that each soldier requires three people in the logistical 'tail' (and it's much more likely to be four or five), then that gives us a rough guesstimate of around, ooh, 42-225 trillion Adepts in the Munitorum, providing the Guard with transport, clothes, equipment, ammo, food, fuel, etc etc etc.

And so on and so forth. The Imperium is vast. Every single human on this planet - so every single human in existence - makes up the population of one hive city. Just one. And a tiny one at that!

MontytheMighty
14-07-2010, 03:52
Rather than repeat myself, I will note firstly that the number-crunching that puts the population somewhere around 14-75 quadrillion is accurate.


that means the average population of all Imperial planets is 14 to 75 billion...I think that's a bit on the high end

DoombringerATT
14-07-2010, 04:27
The numbers come straight from the 3rd Edition Rulebook, Monty.

The old rulebook listed aggregate values and population ranges for each planet in the Imperium.

It's going to seem like the average for an Imperial world is 14-75 billion because the spectrum is so varied.

One one end, you have Research Stations, Feral Worlds, Death Worlds, and Agri-Worlds with skeleton crews of only a few million souls each on the high end. Then there are also Dead Worlds with, well, just about nobody on them - but they're still technically worlds of the Imperium.

In the middle, you have Civilized Worlds, Feudal Worlds, and Forge Worlds with populations of anywhere between 1 million and 15 billion people.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have Hive Worlds with a population of 100 billion to 500 billion people.

As you can see, Hive Worlds pretty much ruin any chances of getting a realistic 'average' population sample.

Mix these population ratios with the aggregates of planetary type, and you come out to 14-75 quadrillion citizens of the Imperium of Man (Check my post on page 1 for the math).

808thMyrmidons
14-07-2010, 04:28
Estimate the Population of the Imperium
......
a lot

MontytheMighty
14-07-2010, 05:15
The numbers come straight from the 3rd Edition Rulebook, Monty.

The old rulebook listed aggregate values and population ranges for each planet in the Imperium.

It's going to seem like the average for an Imperial world is 14-75 billion because the spectrum is so varied.

One one end, you have Research Stations, Feral Worlds, Death Worlds, and Agri-Worlds with skeleton crews of only a few million souls each on the high end. Then there are also Dead Worlds with, well, just about nobody on them - but they're still technically worlds of the Imperium.

In the middle, you have Civilized Worlds, Feudal Worlds, and Forge Worlds with populations of anywhere between 1 million and 15 billion people.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have Hive Worlds with a population of 100 billion to 500 billion people.

As you can see, Hive Worlds pretty much ruin any chances of getting a realistic 'average' population sample.

Mix these population ratios with the aggregates of planetary type, and you come out to 14-75 quadrillion citizens of the Imperium of Man (Check my post on page 1 for the math).

Oh, I'm aware that an average is a fictional number (if half the planets are really high and the other half are really low, then no planet is actually "average")

if those numbers come from the 3rd Edition rulebook then I can't argue with them. I went back and looked at your first post, thanks for the info, dunno why I missed it the first time. I guess the Imperium's farming technology is really, really efficient and sustainable, also there are probably many planetoids not included in the 1 million figure from which the Imperium extracts raw materials. I suppose these wouldn't count as mining worlds. As for the Imperium's energy requirements, I guess it's almost all nuclear fusion, or maybe they even tap into dark energy/dark matter? It's fun to think about.

EDIT: oh by the way, doesn't

"Gamma Class - Civilized Worlds (350,000)

Pop: 5,250,000,000,000 - 3,500,000,000,000,000"

mean 5.25 trillion to 3.5 quadrillion?

EDIT: oh yeah, I think GW must have been off their rockers when they came up with the 1 million space marines figure, 1 for each planet...come on, there should be 100 times that number at the very least, I know they're supposed to be elite but...oh well, for all its flaws I love 40k anyway

DoombringerATT
14-07-2010, 05:53
Yes, the ~350,000 Civilized Worlds in the Imperium account for 5.25 trillion to 3.5 quadrillion people.

The ~140,000 Hive Worlds account for 14 quadrillion to 70 quadrillion of the Imperium's 14.005761061 quadrillion to 75.02150500002 quadrillion citizens alone.

Now you know where they're all hiding. ;)

AndrewGPaul
14-07-2010, 07:25
Could you count Forgeworlds as part of the Imperium? Technically speaking the Imperium and Adeptus Mechanicus are an alliance rather than the latter being an integrated part of the Imperium of Man.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is part of the Imperium - they (officially) submit to the Emperor - although not subject to the Administratum. Same with the Marines.

Philip S
14-07-2010, 08:03
I worked out the number of inhabited worlds from old Battlefleet Gothic sector averages, and assuming their galaxy is pretty much the same size as (or is) the Milky Way, as 70 million.

The Imperium is often said to have 'million worlds', but is this turns out to be a 'poetic million'.

Best guess back in the day was that the Imperium had about 10 million of the 70 million worlds, and the other 60 million belonged to other human factions, and xenos.

The Imperium is vast, but it is not as vast as many think it is (they are outnumbered 6 to 1).

Philip

AndrewGPaul
14-07-2010, 09:15
I've heard it suggested that the "million worlds" doesn't include things like barely-inhabited deathworlds, worlds with negligible useful populations (for example, Baal and Fenris only count because they're Space Marine homeworlds), etc. Only important worlds - hiveworlds, civilised worlds, forgeworlds and important agri-worlds - are counted.

Askil the Undecided
14-07-2010, 09:31
I heard it suggested that the line "empire of a million worlds" is not a factual accounting of the number of worlds in the Imperium but a poetic line chosen for it's simplistic impressiveness.

In fact I've suggested it quite few times on various threads.

More to the point who seriously believes the Imperium actually knows how many worlds it holds?

AndrewGPaul
14-07-2010, 09:37
I've heard it suggested that the "million worlds" doesn't include ...


In fact I've suggested it quite few times on various threads.

Yes, it might have been you doing the suggesting. It was either here or on SD.net, anyway.

Askil the Undecided
14-07-2010, 10:11
There, so as a poetic line using it as a basis for any mathmatical calculation is inherently flawed.

Not to mention that the end result would be a huge approximate range and doesn't matter at all anyway because it has no useful application.

Crazy Ivan
14-07-2010, 10:32
As for the conscription rate, the eye of terror codex lists Cadia's at a ridiculously high level (I can't find the book at the moment to get the figures).

about 71%, I believe. But Cadia is very much an exception: the planet's only purpose is as a fortress. Also, Cadia's population is actually rather small: only 750.000.000. Of course, about half of those recruited are sent off-world, never to be seen again, so Cadia's birth rate must be insane.

El_Machinae
14-07-2010, 13:39
It strikes me that a couple of civilized worlds could 'afford' to support multiple research worlds and research stations. This would suggest that there're multiple research worlds per civilized world. That would crush averages within this combined cohort.

Hive worlds also need support from agri-worlds. I'd suggest that it takes a few agri-worlds to support each hive world. That would also really bring down the average of that 'group'.

RCgothic
14-07-2010, 14:04
Then again the majority of the worker class in a hive city are fed on reconstituted protein goop. Only the middle-upper classes would need to be supplied with food from offworld. For a hive world of 500 billion, with perhaps 50 billion lucky ones, a single intensively-farmed agri-world could easily supply maybe two or three hive worlds.

Idaan
14-07-2010, 14:13
I worked out the number of inhabited worlds from old Battlefleet Gothic sector averages, and assuming their galaxy is pretty much the same size as (or is) the Milky Way, as 70 million.

The Imperium is often said to have 'million worlds', but is this turns out to be a 'poetic million'.

Best guess back in the day was that the Imperium had about 10 million of the 70 million worlds, and the other 60 million belonged to other human factions, and xenos.

The Imperium is vast, but it is not as vast as many think it is (they are outnumbered 6 to 1).

Philip
But the sectors aren't adjacent to each other. As the BFG rulebook itself notes, each is separated from the others by hundreds of lightyears of wild space. Moreover, there is empty space within the sectors. And various Xenos factions aren't going to have the same preferences regarding inhabitable planets. Even the Eldar, who are as human like as you can get, were much more picky before the Fall. I'm not saying that you're wrong though, just that there's a lot more variables. Still, very interesting - someone calculated the volume of the galaxy controled by Imperium (assuming 10.000 200x200x200 LY sectors), and the result was less than 1% I think.

DoombringerATT
14-07-2010, 17:56
Indeed, the 3rd Edition Rulebook gives us one of the most clear-cut ratios of world type to world type, in the form of their Aggregate numbers.

Hive Worlds - 1,400
Civilised Worlds - 3,500
Agri Worlds - 2,000
Feral Worlds - 800
Dead Worlds - 200
Death Worlds - 600
Research Stations - 100
Feudal Worlds - 400
Forge Worlds - 1,000

What you'll notice is that all these numbers added together gives us 10,000. Scaled up to a million (add two zeroes onto the end of those aggregates), and using the text's average population figures, we arrive at a reasonable estimate of 14 - 75 quadrillion folks running around.

I'm in Idaan's boat on this one. Sectors aren't always bumped up right next to eachother, making mathematically calculating the size and population of the Imperium based on sector averages even more impossible than simply using the above method.

Of course the population we've arrived at is going to be flawed in some way. Of course the exact number of worlds the Imperium has isn't even known to them.

That's not the point.

The Imperium has "roughly a million worlds", out of the millions of inhabitable worlds in the Galaxy, and as the OP was asking for an estimate of the Imperium's size and population, my original post here is probably the best estimate we can arrive at, given the fact that the information was practically spoon-fed us, and is the most reliable information at hand.

If anyone has more concrete sources showing that the Imperium holds significantly more than a million worlds, despite the famous line being regurgitated in 40k background then please, speak up.

I'd personally love to see them.

MontytheMighty
15-07-2010, 06:14
Then again the majority of the worker class in a hive city are fed on reconstituted protein goop. Only the middle-upper classes would need to be supplied with food from offworld. For a hive world of 500 billion, with perhaps 50 billion lucky ones, a single intensively-farmed agri-world could easily supply maybe two or three hive worlds.

reconstituted from what? the human dead? feces?

Gen.Steiner
15-07-2010, 07:15
Pretty much, yes. Soylent Green type stuff, with various vermin species mixed in for good measure. Some may include edible fungi or other elements, as well as chemicals or drugs to keep the population in check or easily pliable or what have you.

"Citizen! Eat your rations for the Emperor!"

Don't forget, however, that small vendors will sell things like (cooked) rat-on-a-stick or edible fungi. It is possible, by and large, to supplement your protein goop diet with a wide variety of other foodstuffs; although only the richest will be eating things like bread or cereals. Uphive greenhouses and agriponics facilities will supplement offworld imports of food.

MontytheMighty
15-07-2010, 09:24
Pretty much, yes. Soylent Green type stuff, with various vermin species mixed in for good measure. Some may include edible fungi or other elements, as well as chemicals or drugs to keep the population in check or easily pliable or what have you.

"Citizen! Eat your rations for the Emperor!"

Don't forget, however, that small vendors will sell things like (cooked) rat-on-a-stick or edible fungi. It is possible, by and large, to supplement your protein goop diet with a wide variety of other foodstuffs; although only the richest will be eating things like bread or cereals. Uphive greenhouses and agriponics facilities will supplement offworld imports of food.

so its basically nutrient solution in recycled, gooey form
its just that from the portrayal of hive cities, I doubt the efficacy of their human waste/dead bodies recycling system

Polaria
15-07-2010, 10:29
Its just that from the portrayal of hive cities, I doubt the efficacy of their human waste/dead bodies recycling system

It doesn't have to be efficient. It just has to barely efficient enough. There is world of difference between what we, in modern earth western world, expect of basic living standards and what is the minimum for human to survive.

Gen.Steiner
15-07-2010, 11:11
And don't forget that in the Underhives and lower Hive areas, it doesn't work, more often than not, and no-one cares or knows - they eat cooked vermin, drink alcohol that's more like paint stripper than Simple Green... and so on. It's only as you go further up and get wealthier that it begins to work.

Iracundus
15-07-2010, 11:42
Dead recycling by itself cannot feed hive populations indefinitely by themselves. Hive worlds are not closed systems and bodies leave the world in the form of tithed regiments.

No one said agricultural imports have to be in the form of "natural" food recognizable to modern people. Agricultural imports of food could take the form of processed rations, produced from natural food, but that are unrecognizable as normal food: Nutrient broths, krill cakes, protein bars, etc...

Sai-Lauren
15-07-2010, 12:03
Dead recycling by itself cannot feed hive populations indefinitely by themselves. Hive worlds are not closed systems and bodies leave the world in the form of tithed regiments.

Guard Regiments, press-ganged ship crews, civilian travel...

Plus the waste products of the food consumption need to go back to the agri-worlds as fertilisers, otherwise those worlds will very quickly become exhausted themselves.

Crazy Ivan
15-07-2010, 12:22
Guard Regiments, press-ganged ship crews, civilian travel...

Plus the waste products of the food consumption need to go back to the agri-worlds as fertilisers, otherwise those worlds will very quickly become exhausted themselves.
Good point. That would mean that besides food, the main bulk product shipped between planets in the Imperium would be manure (to put it diplomatically).

Knowing the Imperium, and seeing as they must have a constant shortage of space ships anyway, they probably use the same ships to ship food to and manure from Hive worlds. No sense letting all that available tonnage go to waste, after all.



Grandaddy Nurgle probably approves...

MagosHereticus
15-07-2010, 14:32
Good point. That would mean that besides food, the main bulk product shipped between planets in the Imperium would be manure (to put it diplomatically).

Knowing the Imperium, and seeing as they must have a constant shortage of space ships anyway, they probably use the same ships to ship food to and manure from Hive worlds. No sense letting all that available tonnage go to waste, after all.



Grandaddy Nurgle probably approves...

i suspect agriworlds get chemical fertilisers from harvesting gas giants and their moons, it would be much more efficient to ship millions of tons of pure nitrates and phosphates than to try and reclaim waste from hiveworlds, our own society relies much more heavily on mineral fertilisers than we do on recycled fertilisers (which will run out at some point so we need to plan for a transition to recyclables, similar to the fossil fuel problem)

Kage2020
16-07-2010, 00:57
On average? I would say about 25 mm or so.

:shifty:

Okay, it's never funny, but it's like the traditional response of "Bob" to the question "What is the Emperor's name?" It just needs to be done.

:D

Kage

El_Machinae
16-07-2010, 01:13
Naw, I found it funny. Then again, it's the first time I've seen it.

Sai-Lauren
16-07-2010, 16:23
On average? I would say about 25 mm or so.

:shifty:

Okay, it's never funny, but it's like the traditional response of "Bob" to the question "What is the Emperor's name?" It just needs to be done.

:D

Kage
Or maybe he's a boy named Sue... ;)

Anyway;



i suspect agriworlds get chemical fertilisers from harvesting gas giants and their moons, it would be much more efficient to ship millions of tons of pure nitrates and phosphates than to try and reclaim waste from hiveworlds, our own society relies much more heavily on mineral fertilisers than we do on recycled fertilisers (which will run out at some point so we need to plan for a transition to recyclables, similar to the fossil fuel problem)

Don't forget that the Hive Worlds would be building up, well, I hesitate to use words like mounds and piles, but I can't think of more appropriate ones :p, of biological wastes.

IMO, there's four options, the Hive Worlds themselves can reprocess it, it can be shipped in it's raw form, either back to the agri-world, or to another world, to be processed there, or the vessels can have a small processing plant in built and turn it into fertiliser during the trip, sized so that it doesn't take too much cargo space (possibly even just using the ships own waste recycling systems, which themselves are oversized for this very purpose), but that it'll convert the entire contents during the trip.

The wastes themselves can be carried in containers and vats, which can then be thoroughly cleaned out and sterilised, ready for (mostly) processed foods to be loaded in their place.

Besides which, the upper layers of gas giants are hydrogen, helium etc - you'd have to get down into the lower atmospheres to get the more complex molecules, which then means you're having to add armour and strengthening to keep it intact under the pressure and temperatures, extra fuel to haul them back out against the higher gravity and so on.

It's probably easier and cheaper to collect and ship the end results of the food back to the planet the food came from.

MagosHereticus
16-07-2010, 16:54
Don't forget that the Hive Worlds would be building up, well, I hesitate to use words like mounds and piles, but I can't think of more appropriate ones :p, of biological wastes.

the entire hive ecosystem seems to be based off detritivore and chemotrophes because of a lack of sunlight, and it is clearly stated in necromunda that as much reclaimed waste as possible is turned into food


IMO, there's four options, the Hive Worlds themselves can reprocess it, it can be shipped in it's raw form, either back to the agri-world, or to another world, to be processed there, or the vessels can have a small processing plant in built and turn it into fertiliser during the trip, sized so that it doesn't take too much cargo space (possibly even just using the ships own waste recycling systems, which themselves are oversized for this very purpose), but that it'll convert the entire contents during the trip.[QUOTE]

the waste is reprocessed in the hive and used in the hive, their would be very little to collect except atmospheric gasses, and the majority of the waste you're suggesting should be hauled back to agriworlds would be water and if the agriworld has as much abundant water as earth that would be plain stupid, even hauling nitrates back would be stupid if nitrogen was just as abundant as it is on earth

[QUOTE]Besides which, the upper layers of gas giants are hydrogen, helium etc - you'd have to get down into the lower atmospheres to get the more complex molecules, which then means you're having to add armour and strengthening to keep it intact under the pressure and temperatures, extra fuel to haul them back out against the higher gravity and so on.

i was thinking gas giant mining (al la cloud city from star wars) or mining gas giant moons


It's probably easier and cheaper to collect and ship the end results of the food back to the planet the food came from.

you have absolutely no clue either, don't pretend that you do

Malice313
17-07-2010, 14:16
I think you will find (and this is support by many, many pieces of fluff) that the exact population of the Imperium rests precisely at "untold billions".

Whether that's actually "untold one hundred thousand millions" or "untold billions" is another matter altogether.

When you start giving or taking a few hundred thousand either side of the the handwavian million worlds and start multiplying it by several billion you start to get a slight variance than requires you to count on your fingers and toes. *nods sagely*

abasio
17-07-2010, 14:35
I thought it was countless trillions :P

Malice313
17-07-2010, 14:59
I thought it was countless trillions :P

Just checked:

"To be a man in such times is to be one of untold billions..."

Vastly different from countless trillions.:shifty:

RCgothic
17-07-2010, 15:04
You could just about get "untold billions" on a single hive world. "Many quadrillions" seems more accurate.

Malice313
17-07-2010, 15:24
I wasn't very good at maths but isn't infinity multiplied by any number the same result?:D

Seriously the idea of putting even a rough number on such a massive, constantly fluctuating number using only the vaguest of estimate as a starting point is such a task that is either insane, irrelevant or both.

Clockwork-Knight
17-07-2010, 15:55
A few hive worlds might only have a few billions compared to the others. Armageddon for example, though I think it didn't have that many people before Angron's invasion either.

Idaan
17-07-2010, 18:33
A few hive worlds might only have a few billions compared to the others. Armageddon for example, though I think it didn't have that many people before Angron's invasion either.
Was the population of Armageddon ever stated explicitly? Other Hive Worlds in Segmentum Solar, like Necromunda have populations of 300 billion. So a few billions sounds a bit low.

Gen.Steiner
19-07-2010, 08:33
Seriously the idea of putting even a rough number on such a massive, constantly fluctuating number using only the vaguest of estimate as a starting point is such a task that is either insane, irrelevant or both.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only the prosperous may judge what is truly sane.

Brother Luctus
19-07-2010, 09:55
…(and no, no matter how elite Space Marines are there is no way they can work as written).

??? :confused:
Why not?

Sai-Lauren
19-07-2010, 16:35
the waste is reprocessed in the hive and used in the hive, their would be very little to collect except atmospheric gasses, and the majority of the waste you're suggesting should be hauled back to agriworlds would be water and if the agriworld has as much abundant water as earth that would be plain stupid, even hauling nitrates back would be stupid if nitrogen was just as abundant as it is on earth

Let's see now - every item of food taken off one planet and eaten on another one is taking carbon, oxygen, hydrogen (sugars), nitrogen (proteins) and trace minerals from that planet's ecosystem.

Eventually, if you don't ship those elements back, that planet will become a desert, unfit for growing any crops at all - and with the production rates of agri-worlds, you're not looking at very many years to have completely obliterated the planet, to a stage where it will never recover. Your only choice then is to pick another world, and transport the food even further.



i was thinking gas giant mining (al la cloud city from star wars) or mining gas giant moons

For the first, gravity and pressures still apply (remember, it's believed that there's a layer of metallic hydrogen in Jupiter - that's the kinds of pressures and temperatures involved).

Moon mining? Possibly, but the production rates aren't going to be that quick.

And of course, you have a freighter running back from the Hive World to the agri-world empty.



you have absolutely no clue either, don't pretend that you do
Have I offended you in some way, or are you just being deliberately rude and provocative?

MontytheMighty
22-07-2010, 03:18
Let's see now - every item of food taken off one planet and eaten on another one is taking carbon, oxygen, hydrogen (sugars), nitrogen (proteins) and trace minerals from that planet's ecosystem.


perhaps the Imperium has technology that is capable of transforming matter (maybe harvested from gas giants or stars) into fertilizer, like some type of nano-technology that allows large scale manipulation at an atomic/molecular level, this technology was left behind from the Dark Age of Tech

BigEaZyE
22-07-2010, 03:49
I don't know if it's been said yet but...

Untold billions.

Seems like a lot.

Sai-Lauren
22-07-2010, 16:09
perhaps the Imperium has technology that is capable of transforming matter (maybe harvested from gas giants or stars) into fertilizer, like some type of nano-technology that allows large scale manipulation at an atomic/molecular level, this technology was left behind from the Dark Age of Tech
And the energy requirements for that? Short of nuclear fusion, there's no way to turn one molecule into a heavier one.

And you'd still have to ship that from wherever it's made to the agri-worlds, and somehow deal with the build up of wastes on the hive world.

It really is easier to just process the wastes and ship them on the next freighter that's heading off to the nearest agri-world - urea, for example, is an excellent fertiliser.