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Smiling Banshee
13-07-2010, 08:55
I have just read and re-read the rules for warmachines. Ive heard it mentioned on here in various posts that warmachines cannot fire once they are reduced to 1 crew. I cannot find this rule in the new BRB can anyone give me a page ref. Or is it simply another case of people getting the two editions mixed up.

I can live with my RBT's being reduced to 2 wounds but if they are rendered useless after 1 wound I may have to re-think my lists as the 100pts may be better spent elsewhere.

Atrahasis
13-07-2010, 09:02
The rules for bolt throwers specifically state that 2+ crew are required to operate them.

Page 111, first sentence.

Smiling Banshee
13-07-2010, 09:07
Thanks, dont know how I missed that. Oh well back to the drawing board.

theunwantedbeing
13-07-2010, 09:08
Seems to just be bolt throwers that have that issue....

Falkman
13-07-2010, 09:39
Seems to just be a part of the fluff text that is at the start of every war machine entry in the BRB.

Atrahasis
13-07-2010, 09:49
It seems like all the other war machines have a bit of fluff text at the start except for bolt throwers.

Falkman
13-07-2010, 09:51
No, it seems the Bolt throwers do as well, and it contains the blurb about needing two guys.

Arselskjut
13-07-2010, 09:56
wow, was thinking about using repeater bolthrowers for my dark elves, thanks for this thread, now I have to drop them too from my armylist. =(

Archangelion
13-07-2010, 10:05
So... they only have one wound essentially? What is the point in having a weapon like that if you lose it after one wound? Can you replace crew throughout the game? If not, then why have two crew and not just '1'?

I really don't think that the passage is to be taken as a rule, but rather as mention of the fact that most of these types of weapons start with 2 crew. I hope that an FAQ is put up conscerning this sillyness.

SideshowLucifer
13-07-2010, 11:30
I think it was fluff about how many crew operate the thing, not a rule saying if it takes a wound you have a paperweight.

Spawn of Icarus
13-07-2010, 12:09
i hope not that a fairly large paperweight (Thats and ive just got 5 from ebay - only wanted 4 but was only a lot of 1 and 4 so now i have a spare... and 3 different offical types of Dark elve RBT model :P)

The dark elf one says something about can fire single shot like bolt thrower (then references rulebook bolt throwers) or a volley if volley use these rules... does that mean it can still volley fire with just 1 crew but no longer fire as a bolt thrower? if thats the case its not so bad. correct me if im wrong but isnt the high elf one thew same deal?

2 crew - Volley or Bolt thrower mode
1 crew - Volley only
0 crew - removed

Like that?

SideshowLucifer
14-07-2010, 02:13
I think people are reading to much into it.

Duck Dodgers
14-07-2010, 02:41
On page 108, the box labeled "The Crew" specifies that the crew are not seperate from the Warmachine, cannot be attacked seperately, do not block movement or line of sight, and are basically used as Wound Markers. Add in that no other warmachine states how many crew are needed to fire, and Bolters do not say they cannot fire if they have less than 2 crew. I think the "2 or more" blurb is fluff that is poorly placed/phrased.

Or at least that is how I would rule it.

Frosty_TK
14-07-2010, 07:52
There is absolutely no reference at any point in the warmachine rules that says, that a warmachine is less effective with less crew. Cannons can still fire every turn with just a single wound left, and whatever you want to read into the bolt thrower rules, I don't think that's intended.
The High Elf and Dark Elf bolt throwers have however lost a wound since they only have two crew operating them.

Yrrdead
14-07-2010, 09:16
I just have to chime in that the paragraph preceding the bolt thrower profile is simply fluff. It is in no way, shape, or form a ruling on bolt throwers.

buzzle85
14-07-2010, 09:41
does it matter, can only kill the crew in close combat now anyways.
when you shoot at a warmachine you hit as normal but all hit are allocated vs the warmachine and you get any save the crew got.

so lets face it any warmachine of elves that are in close combat is doomed anyway

Atrahasis
14-07-2010, 09:54
does it matter, can only kill the crew in close combat now anyways.This is incorrect, you always kill crew, and they are all that matters.

When shooting at the machine, you use the machine's T value, and the crew's save, but you are always killing crew.

morespam
14-07-2010, 10:00
Buzzle this isn't true in 8th ed any missile fire is tested vs the T of the warmachine, the armour of the crew but if a wound is scored a crew is removed.

Warmachines essentially have no wounds now, their crew are their "wounds".

EDIT: What Atrahsis said, he beat me to it.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 03:34
But they are officially only 2 wounds on RBTs?

Falkman
21-07-2010, 03:37
Yes, since they have two crewmembers.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 03:44
And thus Orc machines with Bully are bumped to 4W?

Falkman
21-07-2010, 03:47
Since you have to kill the entire crew to silence them, yes.

Ultimate Life Form
21-07-2010, 03:59
So there's actually a use for them now.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 04:03
So there's actually a use for them now.

You mean in addition to Fluff... And previously I'm fairly certain it stopped them panicing from other goblins.

Da Crusha
21-07-2010, 05:36
I think requiring 2 crew to fire is definitely the rule for bolt throwers. this book frequently mixes fluff and rules and it seems correct to treat this as a rule. in the chariot section you can't find the rules preventing chariots from marching in the rules part of it. it is found in the paragraph that is traditionally just fluff.

Khorneflakes
21-07-2010, 07:25
page 86 under split profile last sentence just before the profile of a chariot it says it cant march. thats not fluff.

Da Crusha
21-07-2010, 07:34
oh yea I guess your right :shifty: thats what I get for quoting from memory. well I still think its a rule. why else would they write that into the book? its obvious it would be controversial if it was just meant to be fluff.

pootleberry
21-07-2010, 09:02
I think however it must be fluff. The stone thrower makes no mention of requiring a minimum number of crew to fire it, why not? I would have thought a stone thrower was a far more labour-intensive weapon to crew and fire (I am no expert though on siege engines and war machines).

Trouble is, other sections have introductory paragraphs which combine fluff and rules... Combined Units (p.99) has a clear rule included.

I think HE and DE bolt throwers just got knackered.

Archangelion
21-07-2010, 09:54
War machines (more specificly bolt throwers) are a model. The crew models are simply nice looking wound markers for the war machine. The war machine still exists and works so long as it has a wound left.

Atrahasis
21-07-2010, 10:08
Except for bolt throwers, which have a rule saying that 2 crew are required to operate the machine.

Archangelion
21-07-2010, 10:15
If that were the case, then they would tell you to remove the model once there is only 1 crew member left, as the bolt thrower is not longer operable. They haven't done so, and there isn't a way to add a second model to either the high elf or dark elf bolt throwers, not to mention that a character cannot join to help make it work. All that said. The paragraph is purely fluff. Under the 'Fireing a Bolt Thower' it states nothing of requireing a certain number of crew, which is where one would expect to find such a rule.

Da Crusha
21-07-2010, 10:22
they wouldn't tell you to remove the model if it took a wound because the model would still have another wound and is still worth victory points.

H33D
21-07-2010, 10:22
The models are wound counters. Bolt throwers have 3 wounds on their profile so I would recommend stealing a goblin crew as a slave as he is useless to his war machine...

Archangelion
21-07-2010, 10:25
Well that's agrivating... where do I buy another crew member for my Reaper Bolt Thrower! Grr! GW makes me so mad sometimes!

Da Crusha
21-07-2010, 10:26
The models are wound counters.

no actually it says: "a war machines wounds are always considered to be equal to to the number of remaining crew models(which is stated in the warmachines entry)- the wounds value on its profile is included only out of completeness."

Falkman
21-07-2010, 10:35
Except for bolt throwers, which have a rule saying that 2 crew are required to operate the machine.
It requires two crew to, I quote:
"wind back the powerful torsion arms and position the huge bolt for firing."

Neither of which is an actual in-game action.
It doesn't say anything about needing at least two crewmen to SHOOT the damn thing, which is what we're talking about. It's just fluff text, nothing more.

Da Crusha
21-07-2010, 10:45
It requires two crew to, I quote:
"wind back the powerful torsion arms and position the huge bolt for firing."

Neither of which is an actual in-game action.
It doesn't say anything about needing at least two crewmen to SHOOT the damn thing, which is what we're talking about. It's just fluff text, nothing more.

well how can a guy SHOOT it if he can't even wind back the powerful torsion arms and position the huge bolt for firing?


j/k I know what your saying.

The SkaerKrow
21-07-2010, 16:11
The bit of fluff for Bolt Throwers talks about needing two crewmen to load a Bolt Thrower, but there are no rules in Warhammer for loading your War Machines. It is never implicitly stated that the Bolt Thrower needs at least two crew models in order to make a shooting attack. Ergo, this ambiguous bit of fluff has no effect in the game whatsoever.

Foxbat
21-07-2010, 17:59
Except for bolt throwers, which have a rule saying that 2 crew are required to operate the machine.Ok so we need to worry about crew operating rules. No problem. As none of the Cannons, Stone Throwers, and Fire Throwers rules provide any information on re-loading, they are obviously single shot weapons. Of course if you roll a misfire on your lone attempt to use it and provided it doesn’t blow up, the misfire charts make it clear that you can attempt to use it on a subsequent turn until it does get its single shot off or blows-up.

This discussion has really helped me finally realize why these other war machines always seemed so cheap as compared to Bolt Throwers; they are all one time use!:rolleyes: While I will not be able to operate a Bolt Thrower once it's down to one wound, all I have to do is successfully cast a Life spell so I can fix the problem with Lifebloom. This is simply awesome! As there is no “reload” spell anywhere once these war machines are used, reloading them magically is also not an option.

druchii
21-07-2010, 18:07
Except for bolt throwers, which have a rule saying that 2 crew are required to operate the machine.

That's not what it says.

d

Yellow Commissar
21-07-2010, 18:35
Except for bolt throwers, which have a rule saying that 2 crew are required to operate the machine.


And they have a crew of two. Their Armybook entry tells us this.

The crew models, on the other hand are only used to indicate the remaining number of Wounds and the number of attacks the war machine can make in close combat.

It says ONLY, and that is what it means. It does not mean they are also used to indicate the actual number of remaining crew members to determine if the war machine may fire, or at what rate.

The crew models are simply counters for the war machine. High Elf bolt throwers have a crew of 2 and so satisfy the stipulation on page 111.

Wounds to the war machine do not affect this.

Foxbat
21-07-2010, 20:51
@Yellow Commissar, I agree with you, the crew models are simply a game mechanic to track remaining unsaved wounds the model can take before being removed.

However, if my Dwarf opponent thinks otherwise, I’m sure he will reconsider when he goes to use those one use war machines of his. :D

L1qw1d
21-07-2010, 21:11
I actually liked the fact that (for say Druchii. I believe they have the same effects) Volley and most of the rules are untouched- front rank only 6 shots to one model, or fire as normal (and crew are only hit points now. I'm glad we're all agreed)

Archangelion
22-07-2010, 01:15
Has anyone else sat back and read through the thread? This is actually quite funny!

The SkaerKrow
23-07-2010, 13:21
The new rulebook FAQ states that Bolt Throwers do not require two or more crew to fire. Problem solved.

Smiling Banshee
23-07-2010, 17:44
Yeeeeee Haaaa. Bolt throwers are back in my list

BryanC
23-07-2010, 20:22
Very badly placed Fluff. I am glad GW decided to FAQ it.

Da Crusha
24-07-2010, 00:53
I guess I was right all along! :cool:

elsandrin
26-07-2010, 10:29
I'm totally lost.

So a repeater bolt thrower has... two or three wounds?

Also, is it like a chariot? when it has only 1 wound remaining could it still attack with all the crew?

SideshowLucifer
26-07-2010, 12:04
It has wounds equal to the number of crew it has and it may attack as long as it has any crew at all

Atrahasis
26-07-2010, 12:11
I guess I was right all along! :cool:

No, you were wrong until the FAQ changed the rules, and then you were right ;)

GodlessM
26-07-2010, 18:58
No, you were wrong until the FAQ changed the rules, and then you were right ;)

No he wasn't. Fluff does not equate to rules.

Atrahasis
26-07-2010, 19:04
And yet you have no way of proving it was, indeed, "fluff".

EbonhartLegions
26-07-2010, 23:24
we can stick cotton balls on it if that makes you feel better thou

CmdrLaw
27-07-2010, 00:10
The actual number of wounds is still not obvious. Now the RBT entry states 3 wounds, the reference in the BRB says 3 wounds and it hasn't been errata'd down to 2 wounds.

But we still have only 2 crew so this seems to be a little strange as this wasn't errata'd either.

So at the moment the RBT has 3 wounds but is removed after taking 2 wounds.....this = stupid.

Da Crusha
27-07-2010, 03:19
I guess I was right all along! :cool:

No, you were wrong until the FAQ changed the rules, and then you were right ;)

actually if you go back and read what I posted I was ruling with you and then flipflopped after the faq came out. so according to what you just said I was right all along thanks to my timely flipflopping :cool:

Atrahasis
27-07-2010, 08:01
The actual number of wounds is still not obvious. Now the RBT entry states 3 wounds, the reference in the BRB says 3 wounds and it hasn't been errata'd down to 2 wounds.


The war machine rules are absolutely clear.

It's no different to removing a cavalry mount without actually removing its wound.

CmdrLaw
27-07-2010, 08:11
The war machine rules are absolutely clear.

It's no different to removing a cavalry mount without actually removing its wound.

Hadn't thought about it like that, I was more along the thinking that the crew are "not there" for all intensive puposes and the models just represented remaining wounds for the war machine. So would expect number of wounds to = crew.

Also expected this to be clarified in the HE FAQ but it wasn't.

So then how does this work with a spell like rebirth which restores models??