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FailSafe07
13-07-2010, 22:44
I've been having trouble trying to figure out just why people think that Beasts are so bad. I see quite a few people listing them as a bottom tier army without any real explanation and I'm interested in the rationale behind it.

It seems to me that, despite some leadership issues they have all the tools to be a competitive army. They don't seem to be top tier but on the other hand it seems to me that they are just fine. Their core troops seem reasonable, their magic, especially with the Hagtree Fetish and the new magic system seems alright, and they seem to me at least to have solid to good rare choices.

Also, Minotaurs seem like an incredibly potent and killy unit, especially with stubborn infantry (meaning more and more attacks via bloodfrenzy), attack with full attacks in 2 ranks, stomp attack and T4.

They have killy monsters, reasonable core choices for stubborn blocks, decent heroes and lords, decent magic, a reasonable-seeming variety of monsters to fill a number of niche roles and the ability to cover weaknesses in a list with a wide variety of decently competitive choices.

Am I just missing something here? I can't figure it out I would tend to think they are a solid mid-tier army.

tetrishermit
13-07-2010, 22:48
My guess would be that you now need a lot more core than before now to be legal and beastmen have some of the worst core in the game.

Palantir
13-07-2010, 22:55
My guess would be that you now need a lot more core than before now to be legal and beastmen have some of the worst core in the game.

The only bad thing about our T4, 2HW, primal fury induced core is the points cost.

Beastmen core is not bad at all actually, but needs augmentation by characters to reach maximum efficiency. This costs points and sadly I always seem to be a little low....

Mr.chair
13-07-2010, 22:59
Their monsters are awful. 275 points for toughness 5 or 6 and no armor save means they're going to go down quick.

Most of your stuff is very low armor and pretty low initiative. So you get shot to pieces on the way to combat, and when you get there your opponent likely strikes before you and reduces your capabilities even further.

I think core is where they shine. Gors with an extra hand weapon and some augment spells from the lore of beasts can really do some damage. Add a gorbull for frenzy and then you're really in business. Even so, I still think most armies will outdo them in most phases. They're not unplayable, but I don't disagree that they are lower tier.

Ultimate Life Form
13-07-2010, 23:01
Beastmen eat little babies. They're really, really bad persons; that should be obvious to anyone.

Thankfully they have neither armor nor shooting or anything resembling a useful magic item, and overpriced monsters without protection don't cut it either, so they're quite easily disposed of... if they let you!

AngelofSorrow
13-07-2010, 23:14
Anyone who puts armies into tiers is silly in the first place.

People put them on the bottom when they have no solid proof of what they are talking about
8th Ed hasn't been around long enough for people to make these decision based on anything but theory

@ULF you apparently haven't read the beastmen army book if you think their magic items are useless

tezdal
13-07-2010, 23:18
Tiers smears, just throw down an army and have fun.

LaurentleBete
13-07-2010, 23:24
I'm trying desperately hard to love my beastmen... But... After my Gorghon and Great Bray Shaman both got sniped by the same dwarf cannon shot I've been edging even closer back towards my vampires.

While minotaurs are very killy step-up has ended them. They can't destroy units on the charge, and with a mediocre toughness 4 and only light armour, drop like flies as soon as they start to take damage.

The core is definately not bad, hell, hit a unit of Gors with wildform and you've got a decent unit right there. But, that's the problem. You have to go to all that trouble to get a unit that can just about compete with other armies core choices.

The special choices are very imbalanced. Centigors are mediocre now, but when you can get three razorgors for the same points cost they seem a poor choice. Harpies are good, razorgor chariots are good, however neither is game winning. Minotaurs have so much potential, they can decimate units but will almost always die. And are horribly expensive for a decent sized unit of them. The razorgors shine so brightly out of the special choices though. Their leadership problems are easily mitigated, they're toughness 5 goes leaps and bounds to protecting them over the minotaurs. 3 units of two are cheap enough to be throwaway units, yet devastating enough that you're opponent cannot ignore them.

The rares are lacklustre in comparison to other armies. They're still good, just not worth quite how expensive they are.

In conclusion, Beastmen have potential as a glass cannon army and it's definately not impossible to win with them, but, against anything with half competant shooting/magic you're fighting an uphill battle from the first turn.

Lordy
13-07-2010, 23:31
I'm abit like you Laurent, i'm fighting a losing battle to keep my Beasts, everything is over priced and low initiative and no armour.
The new book has been the biggest dissapointment in my Warhammer life thus far.

I have recently started a Tomb Kings army, which i find to be a better army than Beastmen and will probably...dare i say it end up selling my beastmen to fund more Tomb Kings.

pointyteeth
13-07-2010, 23:36
I'm trying desperately hard to love my beastmen... But... After my Gorghon and Great Bray Shaman both got sniped by the same dwarf cannon shot I've been edging even closer back towards my vampires.



I don't think this is an army problem ;)

Doommasters
14-07-2010, 00:05
So......is there anything good about Beastmen? From this thread itt seems most things are justsub-par :(

Seth the Dark
14-07-2010, 00:08
Beastmen eat little babies. They're really, really bad persons; that should be obvious to anyone.

But babies taste so good!

bluemage
14-07-2010, 00:47
The problem with beasts is the points cost. Almost everything in the army is overpriced. The only thing that seems priced correctly is the characters. I think the army can still work, but you're going to have to take some brayshamans to buff your units using lore of beasts or debuff the enemy using shadow. And some of the units are fun, its just a shame the army lost so much character going from the 6th ed book to the 7th ed one.

The main author of the book left GW mid project and so they had to find someone else to pickup the book and get it out the door. Its a shame, and it shows in the final project.

djcasyun
14-07-2010, 01:03
Everyone else has heaped on the cons, so I'll add a few pros:

-Mino characters are awesome-can ruin enemy units all on there own. BSB with std of +1 str (or just with protective magic and GW) in a unit of 30-40 ungors is very hard to shift.

-Bestigors-with step up, the ASL doesn't make that much difference. They are nutcrackers-they'll lose 5-10 (depending on oppostion), then with PF (and enough numbers-I ran 25), have enough left to pound the enemy.

-Magic-beast magic out of the new BRB is almost tailor made for this army. Over on the herdstone forum there are various builds, but you could do worse than 2 lvl 2's with beast, both with the base buff spell (and what ever else you roll-add dispell scroll, herdstone shard for additional dice.
I have only 1 game under my belt, but one thing for sure-you cannot count on magic - it's easy to crap out with 2-4 power dice, or get IF and miscast nuke yourself. It's a whole new metagame. This goes especially for magic power builds of other armies. Low to mid magic can actually work ok now, IMHO.

-Tuskgor chariots. They're not going to win the battle by themselvves, but they are core chariots, and they have primal fury (minor buff for the bestigor rider now-gets his GW at +2 str). I don't leave home without 2.

-Gorgons -thunderstomp made this one capable of taking out virtually anything on the charge. Iit is a great support unit. Also, has bloodgreed+LD10 for restraining rolls.

-Razorgor chariots-already mentioned. I always add 1 to supplement the two regular chariots.

-Minos-this is more of a comment then a con. I think these are relegated to either a) use against low I opponents, along side a bunch of gors/ungors for ranks or b) flanking manouvers where the opponents won't get support strikes

-Single razorgors-easier to take now without slot restrictions. Can take three units of 1 and send em up against war macines.

That said, I think cannons are verging on overpowered in this ed. Also, dwaves have recieved big step up in this ed. They probably deserved it, but it will take some adjusting. I still think ambusihing has a place-2-3 units can help out with war machines to some extent.

In 7th ed I played regularly against WOC, Lizards, scaven and empire and had a winning record. They were not (and probably are not) top tier, but I never thought they were bottom in 7th and don't think they are in 8th either.. The power balance is obviously going to shake out quite a bit.

One final note-I never won a game without losing at least 50% of my army. beasties are a bloody army, for you and your opponent. If you play well, you'll take a lot of the enemy with you and come out ahead on points.

My 2 cents

Doug

SilasOfTheLambs
14-07-2010, 01:42
Second DJ on the recommendation of taking beast magic. There's only one really useless spell in the lore, which you can swap for a really good one if you roll it. All the rest make your characters or troops disgustingly good.

txamil
14-07-2010, 02:19
I think the problem with beastmen is that one of their signature abilities- ambush- sucks.

So once you accept that and deploy like every other army, you wonder what this army is supposed to be about given the random collection of units. Beastmen have no soul.

Loki73
14-07-2010, 02:21
Tiers smears, just throw down an army and have fun.

Yeah! Exactly. I own beast men..currently playing Skaven but i don't think there's anything wrong with them.

mrtn
14-07-2010, 02:42
Just because "the internet" says something doesn't make it true.

AlphariusOmegon20
14-07-2010, 02:45
Their monsters are awful. 275 points for toughness 5 or 6 and no armor save means they're going to go down quick.

Most of your stuff is very low armor and pretty low initiative. So you get shot to pieces on the way to combat, and when you get there your opponent likely strikes before you and reduces your capabilities even further.

I think core is where they shine. Gors with an extra hand weapon and some augment spells from the lore of beasts can really do some damage. Add a gorbull for frenzy and then you're really in business. Even so, I still think most armies will outdo them in most phases. They're not unplayable, but I don't disagree that they are lower tier.

You can't shoot what you can't see.

*coughambushcoughcough*

AlphariusOmegon20
14-07-2010, 02:54
Beastmen eat little babies. They're really, really bad persons; that should be obvious to anyone.

Thankfully they have neither armor nor shooting or anything resembling a useful magic item, and overpriced monsters without protection don't cut it either, so they're quite easily disposed of... if they let you!

No useful items? Cacophonous Dirge isn't useful? Your opponent never being able to break a tie?

The Hunting Spear isn't useful? A bolt thrower that can S&S in a Chaos army isn't useful?

The Jagged Dagger isn't useful? Ensuring that you can try to get the max power dice a turn isn't useful?

The Hagtree Fetish isn't useful? Allowing re-rolls to wound for a phase isn't useful?

Wow. Just wow.

Ultimate Life Form
14-07-2010, 02:57
I'm probably spoiled by my own books that provide power combos those upstart goats can't even dream of.

AlphariusOmegon20
14-07-2010, 02:59
While minotaurs are very killy step-up has ended them. They can't destroy units on the charge, and with a mediocre toughness 4 and only light armour, drop like flies as soon as they start to take damage.

I'm wondering how many you're running in a unit. if you're running any less than 12 in your unit (6 wide, 2 deep) and with any other weapons than double hand weapons, you're running them wrong.


I'm 3-0 running my big Minotaur unit this way ( I run 17 + Doombull in mine), And even High Elves with 5 ranks of spears must bow before this uber unit.

AlphariusOmegon20
14-07-2010, 03:01
I think the problem with beastmen is that one of their signature abilities- ambush- sucks.



Apparently you haven't read Khazrak's rules then.

ooglatjama
14-07-2010, 03:02
Spamming minotaurs is incredibly annoying when they are all in one deathstar against my dwarfs. I just thunderer them until they go away.

Sygerrik
14-07-2010, 03:29
They're very fragile and expensive. They are one of the ultimate aggressive armies, hitting extremely hard with a glass jaw for taking hits. That's a problem, because you have to hit hard enough to knock the enemy down and stomp them flat before they get up. Still, 8th has helped them, in a number of small ways-- including making their monsters more survivable, as they no longer suffer from being large targets and can get hard cover in a number of ways (not least standing behind friendly units of minotaurs).

Foxhound_808
14-07-2010, 05:10
I considered starting Beastmen for a little while, but after poring over the book I just got frustrated and quit the project. The book feels very bland and, as someone said earlier, soulless. Rushed, perhaps. Many things about the book don't make sense (a magic movement spell that doesn't let you charge if you come into contact with an enemy...wtf) and, while there are some arguably decent magic items most of them are gimmicky (and completely overshadowed by the stuff you see in proper army books). The magic banners are especially strange.

Also as people mentioned earlier, a lot of choices are overcosted.

AlphariusOmegon20
14-07-2010, 05:20
The reason why it stops you when you get within 1" is it's the basic spell you can drop any bray shaman to, thus enabling it to be spammed heavily. I'd rather have to stop when I get within 1" than listen to people whine when I spam it to get my units to charge what I want, when I want.

Halelel
14-07-2010, 07:19
I think a lot of it has to do with the model range actually. A lot of the "cool" units in the book currently don't have a model or the models are outdated (chariots, centigors). Gors and ungors got updated, but the old ones are still pretty good looking overall. The bestigors look a lot better, so no complaints there. The razorgor isn't exactly the most beautiful mini produced and the minotaurs were given a bad rap due to the horrid paint scheme they were given by GW (the models are decent though even if the muscles are a little much)

Just look at the options the army has at the moment
4 core (3 unique to the army, warhounds found elsewhere)
4 special (all unique to the army)
2 rares (none unique to the army, giant and chaos spawn found elsewhere)

It just seems pretty small and bland compared to most other armies that have plentiful slot options with also having unique monstrous units.

I think that will improve once certain other units are updated and models are released for the rare beastmen options.

It just seemed that the Beastmen new army release was very lackluster compared to others, just my opinion of course.

Gonzoyola
14-07-2010, 08:30
@ Halelel. Don't forget harpies, eventhough they are different from the normal ones, Harpies are found elsewhere

Tyranno1
14-07-2010, 09:15
I think a lot of it has to do with the model range actually. A lot of the "cool" units in the book currently don't have a model or the models are outdated (chariots, centigors). Gors and ungors got updated, but the old ones are still pretty good looking overall. The bestigors look a lot better, so no complaints there. The razorgor isn't exactly the most beautiful mini produced and the minotaurs were given a bad rap due to the horrid paint scheme they were given by GW (the models are decent though even if the muscles are a little much)

Just look at the options the army has at the moment
4 core (3 unique to the army, warhounds found elsewhere)
4 special (all unique to the army)
2 rares (none unique to the army, giant and chaos spawn found elsewhere)

It just seems pretty small and bland compared to most other armies that have plentiful slot options with also having unique monstrous units.

I think that will improve once certain other units are updated and models are released for the rare beastmen options.

It just seemed that the Beastmen new army release was very lackluster compared to others, just my opinion of course.

The chariots, centigor, harpies, ghorgon and cygor can all easily be converted using one or two plastic kits each.

And the jabberslythe can be made out of just about anything large with wings.


Its true the beastmen are not an insta-win army, but with a little practice they go a long way. My current list has only lost once, and its because I practiced with how the beast army works.

Just hit your opponents on many fronts and watch the unit die.

They have many useful tools to make them a fantastic army, they are just sterotyped as weak because of thier last (half) army book.

Bassik
14-07-2010, 10:41
Nothing wrong with my Beastmen, they're doing just fine. I win some, I lose some. Could it be... balanced? *ghasp!*

Palantir
14-07-2010, 11:22
They're suffering from the "over-balanced" syndrome, i.e. every pro has a con:

Take beastmen ambush, which is much, much worse than normal ambush found in the BRB. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the high points cost of our units, which means that you really can't afford to take the chance to have your ambushers lose their way and come on the wrong side of the whole battle. If our core was cheaper this wouldn't be a problem. But for now it's rather hard to get a decent number of ambushing units going without gimping your main line too much.

Or the Banner of Rust which gives everyone within 6" -2 armor (sounds good!) and also affects your own units (aawww...crap).

Or the Banner of Outrage which gives you automatic success on Primal Fury rolls (oh yeah!) but also makes the enemy hate this unit (oh ffs...). This item especially is rather weird since it would be much better for you to simply chance on getting PF off normally rather than guarantee the enemy hatred, meaning you'll be losing more goats.

Or our troops who have Primal Fury (great stuff) but have very limited weapon and armor upgrades (bland units FTL). Or our rares who have a good stat line but no upgrades or armor at all.

Although I like Beastmen and will expand my small army, there really is something missing, and that is an army-wide emphasis on ambush. If they included more cool magic items and rules that would interact with ambushing in a much more engaging way than the current rules, the beasts would finally have a soul of heir own. Sadly, GW missed this opportunity this time around.

Ultimate Life Form
14-07-2010, 11:36
Or the Banner of Rust which gives everyone within 6" -2 armor (sounds good!) and also affects your own units (aawww...crap).


I believe this is not much of a problem for an army without armor save. ;)

CrystalSphere
14-07-2010, 11:58
I believe this is not much of a problem for an army without armor save. ;)

It is a problem, if you could take that banner with Gors with 2 hand weapons, then yeah it would be quite nice and give the gors some edge in hand to hand combat.

But no the only unit that can take banners are the bestigors, which happen to have heavy armour, so using that banner actually remove their own armour.

The only thing you can do is to use a BSB inside a Gor unit, and in that case it is better to use the +1 strength banner to give the gors S4.

Palantir
14-07-2010, 11:58
I believe this is not much of a problem for an army without armor save. ;)

You'd think so, until you realize that only a BSB or Bestigor unit can take it. Seeing as this would negate the heavy armor on Bestigors or help the enemy kill your BSB easier, you're effectively screwing up the last bit of armor the army has.

Maybe a BSB Gorebull in a mino unit can get som use out of it, but minos already have the option to take great weapons and are s5 anyway so don't really need it imo.

The best way to use this banner would be to mount the BSB in a razor chariot and go hunting for knights. Would be quite the fire-magnet though :p

The SkaerKrow
14-07-2010, 12:36
Palantir has done an excellent job addressing this subject. It isn't so much that the army is bad, just that it isn't good, either.

herbie93
14-07-2010, 12:48
i'm glad this thread popped up because i'm having the same problems with beastmen. i've been playing beastmen and (now) warriors of chaos for years and when i got this book in my hands i felt like they totally abandoned what beastmen are supposed to be as an army.

My first issue, and not really one for someone who is just starting beastmen, is they lost Raiders. This is probably the whole reason i started beastmen in the first place. they were totally different than other armies, they more resembled a HERD of animals running through the forest. However i'm kinda glad now with the new skirmish rules anyway. But i don't think Raiders was very OP and could easily had another version in the new book.
And then everything else is as already stated, no armour, bland units, overpriced units etc.
I feel like they took a few good steps forward(awesome characters, some of the magic items, and some new units) but took too many backwards with all the other stuff.

Bassik
14-07-2010, 12:48
Palantir has done an excellent job addressing this subject. It isn't so much that the army is bad, just that it isn't good, either.

It's medium. With fries.

The SkaerKrow
14-07-2010, 12:53
My first issue, and not really one for someone who is just starting beastmen, is they lost Raiders. This is probably the whole reason i started beastmen in the first place. they were totally different than other armies, they more resembled a HERD of animals running through the forest.Beastmen lost Raiders because of the change to 8th Edition, as the Raider rule wouldn't have had much/any impact in the new version of the game.

madden
14-07-2010, 13:42
True but they didn't replace it with forest strider(no loss of steadfast ranks count in woods) so the forest dwelling army is the same as a tunnel dweller where's the character gone.

herbie93
14-07-2010, 14:16
exactly madden,
that's the worst part for me, they turned an army that had the feel of a forest dwelling horde into a rank and file army of boring.
*not that i'm saying rnf armies are boring, just the way this army works for me*

txamil
14-07-2010, 14:30
Apparently you haven't read Khazrak's rules then.

If you need a special character to make the army's signature ability work...

mrtn
14-07-2010, 15:09
True but they didn't replace it with forest strider(no loss of steadfast ranks count in woods) so the forest dwelling army is the same as a tunnel dweller where's the character gone.
I can't find any mention of this, either in the Steadfast, Forest or Strider rules. Page reference?

madden
14-07-2010, 15:51
Strider rules combined with p119 forests and close combat plus skirmish rule making them steadfast in forests.(not quite the combi I put but they were basicly what the beasts go last book this time none of them).

AlphariusOmegon20
14-07-2010, 16:09
The chariots, centigor, harpies, ghorgon and cygor can all easily be converted using one or two plastic kits each.

And the jabberslythe can be made out of just about anything large with wings.


Its true the beastmen are not an insta-win army, but with a little practice they go a long way. My current list has only lost once, and its because I practiced with how the beast army works.

Just hit your opponents on many fronts and watch the unit die.

They have many useful tools to make them a fantastic army, they are just sterotyped as weak because of thier last (half) army book.

Quoted For Truth.

shortlegs
14-07-2010, 16:18
I think the OP is asking why do people feel beastmen is bad in terms of its competitiveness, not about whether it is bad because it no longer has raiders, lack models for many of its units or lacks character.

In terms of pure competitiveness, I really don't think it is THAT bad. I play O&G, and if everyone feels that O&G is a mid-tier army in 8th, I'm not sure if beasts can be worse off than the greenskins.

Whats so bad about them?
- lousy core. Ok, back up a little here. 8 points for a gor with WS4, T4 and 2HW with re-rolls to hit most of the time really isn't a bad deal! Gors easily rank among the nasty units in 8th alongside with khorne marauders and stormvermin. How are they bad again?

- primal fury is a really powerful tool. Just ask DE players how important hatred is to them. With the BSB re-roll, your units get a good chance for re-rolls to hit (and potentially frenzy) EVERY TURN. I think a lot of armies will gladly pay lots for such an ability.

- with the buff to warmachines, beastmen easily have the tools to take out said warmachines. From ungor raiders (both ambushing and non-ambushing varieties) and harpies (which does not take up slots now), they have an easier time than most taking out enemy warmachines.

- ambush is a crap rule. So? It is not a great rule I agree, but must an army have a great army-wide rule to be a good army? The effectiveness of an army cannot be based solely on the army-wide rule. If you feel ambush sucks as an amry-wide rule, you should try animosity sometimes..

- minos may have taken a hit with step up, but you just need to use them differently now. Instead of ramming it into the front of a unit and expect to win, use them to flank. The number of attacks they get in return from the flank is not unlike what they get in 7th. With combats likely to last longer, minos have the potential to rack up an insane amount of attacks.

- other choices like razorgor and both chariot options are still decent and points efficient compared to similar units in other armies.

Beastmen may not be a top-tier army, but I really feel they are not as bad as so many make them out to be, especially in the 8th ed context. Somehow I have the feeling that a lot of the current boo-ing of beastmen really comes from people who are simply echoing 7th ed sentiments. How many people have tried looking at and playing with beastmen in 8th with a clean slate and an unbiased mind before proclaiming they suck?

The SkaerKrow
14-07-2010, 17:08
- lousy core. Ok, back up a little here. 8 points for a gor with WS4, T4 and 2HW with re-rolls to hit most of the time really isn't a bad deal! Gors easily rank among the nasty units in 8th alongside with khorne marauders and stormvermin. How are they bad again?While Gors aren't hopeless, they're laughably bad once you get them into combat against anything with a Strength of 4 or more, and have trouble cracking even a mid-level armor save.


- primal fury is a really powerful tool. Just ask DE players how important hatred is to them. With the BSB re-roll, your units get a good chance for re-rolls to hit (and potentially frenzy) EVERY TURN. I think a lot of armies will gladly pay lots for such an ability.Re-rolling Strength 3 attacks really isn't the special. Primal Fury is decent on Bestigors and characters, but it doesn't give Gors and Ungors an appreciable lift in terms of killing power (unless you're fighting lightly armored Toughness 3 troops, which weren't really a problem in the first place).


with the buff to warmachines, beastmen easily have the tools to take out said warmachines. From ungor raiders (both ambushing and non-ambushing varieties) and harpies (which does not take up slots now), they have an easier time than most taking out enemy warmachines.Thanks to the lack of randomization between machine and crew, and the new wound chart, War Machines have become easier to kill all around.


ambush is a crap rule. So? It is not a great rule I agree, but must an army have a great army-wide rule to be a good army? The effectiveness of an army cannot be based solely on the army-wide rule. If you feel ambush sucks as an amry-wide rule, you should try animosity sometimes.."At least it's better than Animosity" pretty much sums up the lack of value of Ambush. Amusingly enough, it was a much better rule in 7e (where flanking and crossfiring really mattered) than it is in 8e.


minos may have taken a hit with step up, but you just need to use them differently now. Instead of ramming it into the front of a unit and expect to win, use them to flank. The number of attacks they get in return from the flank is not unlike what they get in 7th. With combats likely to last longer, minos have the potential to rack up an insane amount of attacks.Minotaurs went from being the only power unit in the army to being pretty mundane. Like Ambush, it is an element that seems to have been designed for 7th Edition.


other choices like razorgor and both chariot options are still decent and points efficient compared to similar units in other armies.Have you used the Tuskgor Chariot before? It hits like a wet rag. Points efficient it isn't. Razorgors with their complete lack of save have a hard time in this edition as well, seeing as how they can scarcely risk going into combat against anything that they won't wipe out on the initial charge.

As much as I love Beastmen, I have no illusions about their power level. Every game with them is an uphill battle from start to finish.

minionboy
14-07-2010, 18:03
As much as I love Beastmen, I have no illusions about their power level. Every game with them is an uphill battle from start to finish.

All I've gotta say is speak for yourself.

I use Tuskgor chariots with frequency and they work wonders for me (I own 7 of them). The whole model has Primal Fury, so you get to re-roll all of the attacks. It's also a str 5 chariot with 3 str 4 crew attacks plus 1 str 6, all of which re-roll hits if you pass LD. All that coming from an 80 point core chariot is great!

I agree that Ambushing isn't a game breaking ability, but I've rarely had it not work out well for me. The new charge range really mitigates the chance to show up on your own side as it will only take them another turn usually to get in combat if the enemy has come to you at all.

Minotaurs are still the power unit in the army. Since they have mediocre initiative, it's no problem giving them great weapons. If you get them on the flank, stepping up wont really matter that much since you only get supporting attacks on the side.

Don't forget that your BSB lets you re-roll failed primal fury rolls, which increases your odds of getting it dramatically. Str 3 isn't a terrible strength, it's just not a fantastic one either. Most of the power armies are T3 (daemons, VC, HE/DE, etc.).

Maybe (it seems likely) that I've had a better experience with my Beasts than some others, but I definitely see that when the army is played well and it's strengths taken advantage of, it's a nasty force to be reckoned with.

decker_cky
14-07-2010, 18:30
Re-rolling Strength 3 attacks really isn't the special. Primal Fury is decent on Bestigors and characters, but it doesn't give Gors and Ungors an appreciable lift in terms of killing power (unless you're fighting lightly armored Toughness 3 troops, which weren't really a problem in the first place).

Welcome to 8th edition, where fighting lightly armoured toughness 3 troops matters, and where you have magic to boost those S3 troops into combat powerhouses.

Rerolls in combat is huge. Two armies get rerolls largely across the army in 8th - High elves and beastmen. In the few games of 8th edition experience, gors and ungors have been really solid in combat. Armies depending on front loaded attacks or on rerolls in the first round really don't have the same effect across the unit from their special rule.

I actually consider ungors to be the best core unit for beastmen right now, as a cheap way to get models, attacks and ranks, and a cheap unit to ambush with ranks.

And flanking still matters a lot, just in a different way - biggest reason being that engaging from multiple fronts prevents combat reforms, but also for gaining kills and combat resolution while giving minimal return CR.

Also, ungor raiders actually are awesome ambushing in a unit of 10 now, since they deploy with their back rank to the board edge and have a 1/2" gap between ranks, meaning they start quite far on and add 2-3" to their deployment compared to 7th edition.

Comparing to the old book when looking at competitiveness is useless, since the similarities between them are minimal.

Are beasts the best army in the game? No. Are they now quite solid and competitive? From what I've seen so far, I think so.

The_Bureaucrat
14-07-2010, 18:56
They use to be bad in the 7th. The 8th removed a lot of their weaknesses.

-Their lackluster range of magic items is boosted greatly by access to all of the common magic items.
-Their speed charging has been increased.
-Their inability to deal with big monsters has been decreased from step up.
-Ranged weapons overall strength has decreased. (moving through terrain, more cover etc,)
-The fact that their monsters are overpriced matters a lot less now as monsters aren't as crucial.
-Primal fury is great now with BSB rerolls.

True they took a couple of hits with step for chariots and better war machines. But 8th is a better time to be a beast men player.

The SkaerKrow
14-07-2010, 18:59
Welcome to 8th edition, where fighting lightly armoured toughness 3 troops matters, and where you have magic to boost those S3 troops into combat powerhouses.Where's that laughing smiley? I really need it right now.

Have you heard of Lizardmen? Or Dwarfs? Or Warriors of Chaos? Those are some of the most popular armies out there right now. They care not one bit about Gors and their re-rolls to hit. Primal Fury makes Gors and Ungors better against enemies that they already had no problem with. It doesn't do much against the units that they (and the army at large) struggle with.

Bac5665
14-07-2010, 20:12
Where's that laughing smiley? I really need it right now.

Have you heard of Lizardmen? Or Dwarfs? Or Warriors of Chaos? Those are some of the most popular armies out there right now. They care not one bit about Gors and their re-rolls to hit. Primal Fury makes Gors and Ungors better against enemies that they already had no problem with. It doesn't do much against the units that they (and the army at large) struggle with.

Not just Gors. That is the story with every infantry unit in 8E. (Except elves, which just get worse.)

In 8E, you roll more dice, making the average result more common, and causing MORE of everything. This means that units are more likely to perform as expected, and to do that MORE. So if I expect to beat a unit (say Empire Spearmen) with mu Gors, in 8E I'm more likely to get the average result, and it will be a larger impact, good, bad or neutral. So Gors don't get a boost from 8E, they just kill and are killed more.

Harwammer
14-07-2010, 20:22
So Gors don't get a boost from 8E, they just kill and are killed more.
Well the step up rule means they are boosted against enemies with higher m and I (gors can attack back) but nerfed against enemies with lower m and I (enemy can attack back). On reflection their average initiative means this is probably a sidegrade for gors (whereas, for example, it is an upgrade for orcs and dwarfs who both previously had movement issues compounding their poor i but tend to be fielded in sizable blocks).

Bac5665
14-07-2010, 20:50
Well the step up rule means they are boosted against enemies with higher m and I (gors can attack back) but nerfed against enemies with lower m and I (enemy can attack back). On reflection their average initiative means this is probably a sidegrade for gors (whereas, for example, it is an upgrade for orcs and dwarfs who both previously had movement issues compounding their poor i but tend to be fielded in sizable blocks).

Now, go look at the units that has a higher I than gors, then the units with a lower I than gors. Then run some numbers. In 8E vs. 7E, very, very rarely (if ever) will the average outcome change from old to new edition. Sure, Gors will kill more back AND take more casualties in every fight. But the proportion won't change. If gors would loose before, they loose now, and vice versa.

The only things that changed are that 1 wining doesn't matter because of steadfast and charging doesn't matter because of a whole host of reasons.

mrtn
14-07-2010, 23:23
Strider rules combined with p119 forests and close combat plus skirmish rule making them steadfast in forests.(not quite the combi I put but they were basicly what the beasts go last book this time none of them).
Nope, I still don't see any mention of it there.

Sygerrik
14-07-2010, 23:27
The Razor Banner is neato for Beastmen. And with the new Lore of Beasts (which I would frequently choose to use instead of the Lore of the Woods or whatever it's called) has some buffs that work out quite nicely on Gors and Minos.

minionboy
15-07-2010, 00:38
Where's that laughing smiley? I really need it right now.

Have you heard of Lizardmen? Or Dwarfs? Or Warriors of Chaos? Those are some of the most popular armies out there right now. They care not one bit about Gors and their re-rolls to hit. Primal Fury makes Gors and Ungors better against enemies that they already had no problem with. It doesn't do much against the units that they (and the army at large) struggle with.

Nope, never heard of them.:rolleyes:

Of the 15 armies in warhammer, 6 have T4 as their majority basic troop (7 if you count DoC, but Nurgle got nerfed). So in 2/3 of all the army books, their basic troop is T4, including Beastmen themselves, and not accounting for goblin armies.

Have you heard of High Elves, Dark Elves, Empire, VC, TK, Skaven... I think you get the idea.

HK-47
15-07-2010, 00:48
Has anyone thought of turning your Bray Shaman into a dragon, I think it's call Mountain Chimera, using the new lore of beats? I think that might me interesting.

shortlegs
15-07-2010, 01:15
While Gors aren't hopeless, they're laughably bad once you get them into combat against anything with a Strength of 4 or more, and have trouble cracking even a mid-level armor save.
As many have mentioned, you will not likely see many highly-armored units in 8th. With lightly-clad infantry as the new pink, gors have no problem there.


Re-rolling Strength 3 attacks really isn't the special. Primal Fury is decent on Bestigors and characters, but it doesn't give Gors and Ungors an appreciable lift in terms of killing power (unless you're fighting lightly armored Toughness 3 troops, which weren't really a problem in the first place).
Re-rolling attacks isn't special? Are you really serious? Please, just do the math will you? You will find that re-rolling 2 WS4 attacks every round is HUGE and will cause lots of casualties to regular infantry.


Thanks to the lack of randomization between machine and crew, and the new wound chart, War Machines have become easier to kill all around.
Yes they have, but it still does not mean that all other armies have the MEANS to do so. Shooting them with regular missile troops may not be optimal due to penalties from cover, while you get skirmishing shooters which can march to a good position and shoot. Fast cav may be blocked by intervening terrain or units while harpies can fly. What more you want? You remind me of a grumpy old grandpa who complains like mad about things you don't have, but when reminded of what you DO have, you either deny it or declare it worthless.. :eyebrows:


"At least it's better than Animosity" pretty much sums up the lack of value of Ambush. Amusingly enough, it was a much better rule in 7e (where flanking and crossfiring really mattered) than it is in 8e.
Again, what do you want? An auto "I win" army-wide rule? As I said, you do not need a kick-a$$ army rule for the army to be good, that can be achieved by having decent or solid army choices alone, WITHOUT a need for an army rule.


Minotaurs went from being the only power unit in the army to being pretty mundane. Like Ambush, it is an element that seems to have been designed for 7th Edition.
EVERYONE has to change how they best use monstrous infantry now, not just minos. You can't ram it straight to the front now and expect no casualties. Just because you can't use it the same (boring) way like you did back in 7th doesn't mean the unit is suddenly mediocre now. Just be more flexible in its use.


Have you used the Tuskgor Chariot before? It hits like a wet rag. Points efficient it isn't. Razorgors with their complete lack of save have a hard time in this edition as well, seeing as how they can scarcely risk going into combat against anything that they won't wipe out on the initial charge.
Tuskgor chariot hitting like a wet rag? Wow, that's a first. I've heard complaints of it, but definitely NOT about it being poor in combat. In fact, many of your comments seem to stem from a misguided view that for a unit to be good, you must be able to ram it into the front of an enemy unit, survive the returning attacks, and then break and run them down. :wtf: This is simply 7th ed mentality.


As much as I love Beastmen, I have no illusions about their power level. Every game with them is an uphill battle from start to finish.
Every game with them? Are they all 8th ed games? If they aren't, please do NOT make such blanket statements. Things have changed in 8th, a lot, for better or for worse, and many naysayers are simply biased against beasts based on their 7th ed perceptions. If that is what you want to believe and nothing else, then I guess nothing other people say or prove will ever change your mind.

shortlegs
15-07-2010, 01:18
Welcome to 8th edition, where fighting lightly armoured toughness 3 troops matters, and where you have magic to boost those S3 troops into combat powerhouses.

Rerolls in combat is huge. Two armies get rerolls largely across the army in 8th - High elves and beastmen. In the few games of 8th edition experience, gors and ungors have been really solid in combat. Armies depending on front loaded attacks or on rerolls in the first round really don't have the same effect across the unit from their special rule.

I actually consider ungors to be the best core unit for beastmen right now, as a cheap way to get models, attacks and ranks, and a cheap unit to ambush with ranks.

And flanking still matters a lot, just in a different way - biggest reason being that engaging from multiple fronts prevents combat reforms, but also for gaining kills and combat resolution while giving minimal return CR.

Also, ungor raiders actually are awesome ambushing in a unit of 10 now, since they deploy with their back rank to the board edge and have a 1/2" gap between ranks, meaning they start quite far on and add 2-3" to their deployment compared to 7th edition.

Comparing to the old book when looking at competitiveness is useless, since the similarities between them are minimal.

Are beasts the best army in the game? No. Are they now quite solid and competitive? From what I've seen so far, I think so.
I agree. I think people are still hung up over their inability to accept the change from the 6th ed army book, and failing to view beasts in relation to the new 8th ed rules. They really aren't as bad as many say they are.

shortlegs
15-07-2010, 01:25
Where's that laughing smiley? I really need it right now.

Have you heard of Lizardmen? Or Dwarfs? Or Warriors of Chaos? Those are some of the most popular armies out there right now. They care not one bit about Gors and their re-rolls to hit. Primal Fury makes Gors and Ungors better against enemies that they already had no problem with. It doesn't do much against the units that they (and the army at large) struggle with.

Way to go, comparing gors with enemies that cost more points then them. If that's the way you are basing your argument, that gors suck when compared statwise to units like chaos warriors that cost TWICE as much as them, then I guess there's no need for me to say anything.

Have you even considered that against such enemies, you will likely outnumber them, and thus will get more attacks at them than they have at you (due to wider frontages or horde formation), and thus winning the war of attrition? Or did you stop once you saw that gors have poorer stats than units costing so much more?

shortlegs
15-07-2010, 01:36
Now, go look at the units that has a higher I than gors, then the units with a lower I than gors. Then run some numbers. In 8E vs. 7E, very, very rarely (if ever) will the average outcome change from old to new edition. Sure, Gors will kill more back AND take more casualties in every fight. But the proportion won't change. If gors would loose before, they loose now, and vice versa.

The only things that changed are that 1 wining doesn't matter because of steadfast and charging doesn't matter because of a whole host of reasons.
Initiative only matters in combat where being struck first means you lose returning attacks. For gors, unless it is late in the game, your blocks should be way too big for that to happen, and thus initiative plays a minor role.

I have run numbers... A LOT. Been doing so ever since the 8th ed rumours came out. And gors perform VERY well in the numbers game. The average outcome HAS changed from 7th to 8th, simply because you will now be far more likely to pit gors against other regular infantry blocks, against which gors work just fine. In fact you'll be hard pressed to find a unit that performs as well for 8 points or less (besides everyone's favourite khorne marauders..)

Ultimate Life Form
15-07-2010, 01:49
Has been a long time since I saw such an epic quadruple post.

By the way I never thought Beasts were great, but at least in 6th they had style.

AlphariusOmegon20
15-07-2010, 02:53
Has anyone thought of turning your Bray Shaman into a dragon, I think it's call Mountain Chimera, using the new lore of beats? I think that might me interesting.

Interesting idea, but since it's a RIP spell, it's actually easier to dispel it the turn AFTER with Power Dice as your dispel, and since the magic phase is AFTER the charge phase, either one of two possiblities is going to happen : Either you didn't declare a charge, he lets it go off and then dispels it in his magic phase, wasting those dice, or You do declare a charge and he hits it with a dispel scroll or if you irresistible, he pops out a Feedback Scroll on you. It's a very situational spell and not the be - all, end - all spell everyone seems to think it is.


( BTW, you still generate power dice even if you don't have a wizard, as they can be used as dispel vs. RIP spells. No RIP on the table, anything you generate is wasted.)

General Squeek Squeek
15-07-2010, 07:19
Just had my second game with the beasts in 8th edition, and I am starting to get over my previous doubts. Having a bsb and beastlord in the center of your lines really anchors your center in a much more reliable way.

Also I've had a ton of success with 30 gors with the bsb with the Banner of the beast, and gnarled skin. Yeah he only has a 2+ save, but as long as he's on the edge he won't have more then 4 guys attacking him (including the second rank). When you combine this with the Lore of Beasts signiture spell you have an absolutely sickening unit. I run the unit 6 wide, and 17 rerollable str5 attacks, plus 3 str6 attacks with 3 ranks, a standard, and a bsb go a long way towards breaking most units. Not to mention Toughness 5 gors are alot harder to kill then Toughness 4.

Now I know this combo is very situational, but with 2 lvl 2's I've found that I can pretty much guarantee to get this spell off at least once turn.

Last game I ran this unit in front of a line of TK chariots, and cast the spell with the bsb in the unit. 15 impact hits only killed 5 gors, I then proceeded to kill 4 chariots (which was only slightly higher then the statistical average), and then only lost 3 more gors. The resulting combat resolution saw the rest of the chariots go poof.

Palantir
15-07-2010, 11:15
Also I've had a ton of success with 30 gors with the bsb with the Banner of the beast, and gnarled skin.

Is the Beast Banner really worth it? I've been checking it out and it costs almost as much as a lvl 1 shaman, which makes me think it'd be better to get the shaman and use him to cast the +1S +1T spell one more time on the same unit instead. 75 points just seems a tad expensive.

In other news, we have access to 2 items that make us stubborn now, with the "Crown of Command" from the BRB and the "Crown of Horns" form our book.

I haven't thought too much about the possibilities this opens, but i can imagine that 2 blocks of Gors with guaranteed stubborn (and possible T5 with magic) can serve as fine anvils, allowing our minos, chariots and monsters to get support charges off.
Once again it seems our characters are there to glue our army together and support it, not to be beefed up combat monsters.

Thoughts on this?

General Squeek Squeek
15-07-2010, 17:03
Is the Beast Banner really worth it? I've been checking it out and it costs almost as much as a lvl 1 shaman, which makes me think it'd be better to get the shaman and use him to cast the +1S +1T spell one more time on the same unit instead. 75 points just seems a tad expensive.


Are you able to have the effects of the signature spell stack multiple times? I was under the impression that a spells effects could only be applied once to a unit.

Palantir
15-07-2010, 17:20
Are you able to have the effects of the signature spell stack multiple times? I was under the impression that a spells effects could only be applied once to a unit.

IIRC, that spell specifically says you can cast it multiple times on the same unit. Other spells can't.

General Squeek Squeek
15-07-2010, 18:07
just checked the Lore of Beasts. There's nothing saying you can cast it multiple times on the same unit.

Still the point was that str5 tgh5 gors are awesome, extremely situational, but awesome.

Mike3791
15-07-2010, 19:33
Has anyone tried using ungors w/ spears combined with the stubborn steadfast rule? I almost think I would prefer them to 2HW Gors. Combine them with the beast lore stat buff and they become pretty good for their points cost!!

Citizen Lame
15-07-2010, 19:38
I just recently read the army book and didn't find anything that alarming, they didn't strike me as majorly underpowered. Though I have to admit I'm not keen on a lot of the models available.

Mithras69
15-07-2010, 22:02
Has anyone tried using ungors w/ spears combined with the stubborn steadfast rule? I almost think I would prefer them to 2HW Gors. Combine them with the beast lore stat buff and they become pretty good for their points cost!!

Personally I would use ungor with just handweapon+shield to keep them as cheap and durable as possible. That is, if you want to use them as a tarpit or steadfast breaker.

Fredrik
16-07-2010, 08:17
I do belive that Beastmen are low mid tier due to that they are overpriced. Gors are badly priced compared to most things, Minotaurs are just awful in this addition (especially when it is so easy to mess with thoughness).

The tuskgor chariot (like alot of chariots) due sort of remind me of a wet rag (I use 1-2 to asssasinate mages and generals) but other then that they get totally owned against most things.

Centigors are even worse in this edition, and for a steap price.

Harpies are always good (espessially when buffed)

Beastigors got alot better but due have a hard time to compete with the other elite units that also got alot better.

Pumbagors got better due to the possibility to buff them, perfect in 1:s or 2:s to buff and hun characters of monsters. but a bit pricy for not having primal fury Ld 6 and ws 3.

Our monsters: The Cygor got better but is still way to expensive. Our other monsters just got really bad. The jabber will never se gameplay again with itīs ability all but gone Tlos, T5 and no save together wih loads of more shoting in 8 :th. The Gorgon got a bit better but so did itīs prey RnF units. It now gets back a bucketload of attacks that wound on 6:s with no save, no thnx.

Ungors are much better and combined with 3 Beastmages (not all have to be lvl2 ) and one shadow mass spam of crap units that we buff is the way to go. Backed up by a couple of beastlords and a BsB.

In short yes sure Beastmen can play with the other children, but wen the gloves come off we realise we never had any gloves.

Compared to the other armies, if the designers knew how 8:th worked, I really wonder why they desgined and priced some of the things they did.

If however future armies will follow in Beastmens powerlevel (which in my eyes are much more balanced then many others) then 8:h will be a much better game. Knowing GW I do however fear that Beastmen powerlevel is however just a power dip and the next army will be back up there.

skullkandy
19-07-2010, 15:58
Compared to the other armies, if the designers knew how 8:th worked, I really wonder why they desgined and priced some of the things they did.

If however future armies will follow in Beastmens powerlevel (which in my eyes are much more balanced then many others) then 8:h will be a much better game. Knowing GW I do however fear that Beastmen powerlevel is however just a power dip and the next army will be back up there.

This is word for word how I see it as well and what I've been saying since the book was released. I really think the beastmen book is very "balanced" with itself, but not balanced at all with the overall game. It seems like it suffers from being the limbo book between editions. And the ambitions of GW trying to bring everything back to center. although the center in our current atmosphere is crap.
If GW were to actually remember what they wanted to do and why while writing the rest of the army books warhammer would be a much better game. But if you look at GW track record with army books they are all written in a complete vacume by someone who has never read any other army books as if it's a blind study.
So by the time they do the next they will have completely forgotten the baseline they established and the direction they wanted to move the game in. They'll just let a bunch of random writers write whatever they want with no overall plan, direction, or quality assurance and every sucessive book will be some wild shot in the dark which is what creates the tiers.