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lcfr
13-07-2010, 22:49
Just started plowing through my rulebook today, and on p.17 under Stand & Shoot the wording is throwing me off a little...

The rules state that a S&S reaction can be declared against an enemy outside the maximum shooting distance of the shooting unit, and immediately afterwards reads: " - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon".

For whatever reason, I'm finding this to be utterly confusing...can I S&S against a unit that starts outside my maximum shooting range or not? Does the second qualifying statement simply mean that the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy's charge distance brings it w/in range of the shooting unit?

Stinkingyeti
13-07-2010, 22:54
I would think that the S&S reaction is resolved when the chargers move within shooting distance.

I.e If they're start outside max range and you declare that, when your shots are resolved as if they are within range cause eventually they will be.

Spawn of Icarus
13-07-2010, 23:02
if they charge 10 inches but you stand and shoot with 8 ich range handbows and somehow break them through casualties they flee from 8 inches away rather than where they origanally where or from base to base. Thats my understanding

Bitten Black Sheep
14-07-2010, 01:29
The rule on page 17 is as follows:
"A S&S charge reaction can be declared v an enemy that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally ASSUMING the unit is just within range of the shooting units shortest ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for wahaever reason, we ASSUME that the chargers have closed to within the weapons' max range before being driven off."

It depends on how you interpret "assume". My thoughts are that it means that the concept is abstracted. You do not move the chargers, the panic test is resolved where they stand, they then flee from where they stand or complete a successful or failed charge. "- the shooting is resolved normally". This is different to 7th when the chargers closed to the range of the shortest range weapon used and panicked from there. It does mean that all the weapons shoot in 8th even though at (extra)long range.
I do think the wording is a bit unclear in this area though. A picture would have been good.

Frosty_TK
14-07-2010, 08:06
I also read it like this. If the enemy is out of range, you can still stand and shoot. You don't move any units. You just shoot your weapons, and if the charging unit fails it's panic test, it even flees from it's current position.
The rule ist abstract, and I remember it saying so itself. Otherwise, you would break the order of movement:
1. Declare a charge,
2. handle charge reaction
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until there are no more charges,
4. move all charges

Thanatos_elNyx
14-07-2010, 08:14
I agree with Black Sheep.
The Chargers aren't moved, but are assumed to be in range for S&S.
If a panic test is failed then they flee from where they are, not from where the shooting is abstractly thought to have occured.

T10
14-07-2010, 09:39
It does mean that all the weapons shoot in 8th even though at (extra)long range.


Indeed. It is clear that the Stand & Shoot is worked out before any of the charging models are moved.

I expect the shooting unit is limited to shooting only with models that have the charging unit in their forward arc.

-T10

madden
14-07-2010, 09:54
What about SaS using volly fire yes or no? as my night gobbos would be happy if yes.

Archangelion
14-07-2010, 10:07
Uh... do you have the rulebook? Read the last paragraph of the Volly Fire rule.

madden
14-07-2010, 10:47
Missed that bit thanks

Gazak Blacktoof
14-07-2010, 17:39
I would have thought that the final position of the charging unit would have to take into account all the assumptions, including where the unit is considered to have moved to during its charge before being driven off.

JonnyTHM
14-07-2010, 17:57
Read page 63.

You do not move the chargers, they flee from where they started.

Bitten Black Sheep
15-07-2010, 01:20
Yep
Page 63 says it all very clearly

Jadiel
15-07-2010, 06:13
Just started plowing through my rulebook today, and on p.17 under Stand & Shoot the wording is throwing me off a little...

The rules state that a S&S reaction can be declared against an enemy outside the maximum shooting distance of the shooting unit, and immediately afterwards reads: " - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon".

I'm not sure if this is the same issue as the OP, but this sentence seems strange to me also. Surely it should read "the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's longest-ranged weapon"?

The intent of S&S seems to be that troops get off a shot at chargers, but they're under pressure. The can't wait until the enemy gets to short range in order to maximise accuracy. So, say my WE GG (for example) S&S at charging enemies who start 16" away from me are S3 at -2 to hit. But according to the rule above, if I could somehow equip them with javelins, they would suddenly be able to restrain themselves for long enough to fire their longbows at S4 with only -1 to hit. I don't see how that can be right.

Re-reading the rules again, someone will point out that the rule above applies only when the charging unit is out of range at the beginning of the charge, and they're right, but the point still stands. I freely admit this situation will almost never arise, and the RAW works fine, but it does seem to me that the rules as written don't match their intent.

Frosty_TK
15-07-2010, 06:20
The intent is pretty much the shortest range of the weapons used for shooting. So no, if you take a 1" sling with ya but keep it tugged to your belt, the long bows' range is all that matters.
The rule is there to enable every man in the unit a stand and shoot reaction, NOT to give the long range weapons a better to hit number. So please don't bend it the other way around, you'll probably be far stretched to find a unit that enables you to do such shenanigans anyway.

Milgram
15-07-2010, 06:23
no, it should not. if it would be the longest-ranged weapon, then most of the time only one model could shoot. as it is the first one and thus has the longest range.

and yes, what you describe is exactly what the outrider champion does by having a pistol instead of a real gun. this worked the same in 7th ed btw.

Archangelion
15-07-2010, 10:06
It's a nice little tidbit for a unit with that option, because the rest of the weapons will get to fire at short range because of the shorter ranged weapon in the unit.