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Grentain
14-07-2010, 04:27
So, I was reading through the dwarf army book, and I came across a Runic Talisman: The Master Rune of Challenge. I realized that I had probably overlooked this rune in the past because I didn't neccessarily want to force a particular unit to charge me - after all, I wanted to be on the giving end of the charge.

Well, now that 8th edition has the variable charge rule, you can use the rune to target any unit that's up to 12+M" away, and force them to either charge or flee. We all know the probability of rolling double 6's on two dice, so their choices are: Take the movement forward and get hit by your Stand and Shoot reaction, likely opening themselves up to a counter-charge after they fail their charge, or run away, and risk panic checks on nearby units. I can see this being particularly rough against armies with low leaderships, like Skaven. I'm just invisioning a unit of slaves fleeing from the rune, and freaking out the huge block of clan rats behind it as it runs away.

ReaperOfSouls
14-07-2010, 05:17
While this rune seems very nice and probably has somegood uses you have small error in your vision:

Slaves have the 'expendable' rule, meaning they don't panic anything but other slaves. Making the clan rat unit flee might very well panic the slaves though.

Grentain
14-07-2010, 05:34
Well, I'm not a Skaven player. Let's replace Slaves with plague monks, or some other skaven unit that would run and make it matter. The idea is, for 25pts, you can force your opponent to make a choice between bad or worse, and presumably give yourself a big advantage.

RulesJD
14-07-2010, 08:01
Master Rune of Challenge is a subtle bit of kit. Note that it does not work against models that are immune to psychology so undead and demon armies typically ignore it. (I didn't use this rune much with 7th edition).

In 7th, you could only force a charge by a unit that could charge, so, it you used it, you had to be willing to take the pain of that charge. Coupled with the rune of slowness, it was possible to force a failed charge, though difficult. You could also bait and flee but, you then have a unit with at least a Thane fleeing all through your opponents next turn.

So, in 7th, the best use was to force a charge against a rock hard unit of say hammerers or ironbreakers in hopes of destroying a unit or simply disrupting the enemy line by bringing a single unit of cav/flyers/ skirmishers/chariot out of the enemy battleline before they were ready. If they chose to run, this also disrupted them. One unit of knights or fast cav against 2-3 blocks of Dwarfish infantry would be in trouble.

Now, in 8th, the use changes. The 2d6 plus base move means that enemy infantry out to 16" can be compelled to charge and enemy cav out to
19" to 21". That means you can now suck a missile unit or unit with a wizard to charge and cost them a shooting/magic attack at long range. You can also now force charges through difficult/dangerous terrain with TLoS.

Consider, however, that a failed charge can be less costly to some units in
8th edition. In the old game a chariot/cav/flying unit that failed a charge would be at least 7" to 20" ahead of their line and possibly in front of their own units. In 8th edition, they only fail by the largest d6. Meaning they will often travel only 3-4" and 6" at most. That means failed chargers will not be suddenly alone and vulnerable far in front and/or blocking other friendly units.

In fact, given the much greater range of charges combined with more effective shooting, I think the challenge rune will see more use disrupting enemy shooting and spell casting in this edition.

Dead Man Walking
14-07-2010, 11:26
I use to use this rune in my marching army in 7th edition to get in my opponents grill in turn 2. I use my banner to move 6 inches before the game begins, then move 6 inches and then challenge something that can charge 12 inches with the challenger in a unit of hammerers. Then when I win combat I would roll for chasing them down and in my turn I would charge 6 inches into your armies grill.

The power of the rune of challenge is that any time you dictate your opponents moves in -thier- turn then your much closer to winning. This is espeacially true if you make them charge with something they had no intention of charging with, like a unit dedicated to dealing with another unit, a character on a flying steed, a march blocking flyer unit, or a harassing unit of skirmishers/fast calvary.

Now here comes the next tactic, use a hammerer unit as your challenger unit with rune of immune to fear and terror and the rune of 'take a break test on 1d6 instead of 2d6' which means an instant success due to stubborn. Then when you take a beating but stand solid you counter charge in your turn with flanking dwarf units (which typically stay close togeather by nature.) and crush your opponent.

In one game my opponent placed 2 units of massive chaos knights on the left side of the table with a lord and 2 heroes in them and I placed my unit of hammerers on that far side nearest the edge. Then I moved and challenged his inner unit of knights to charge, forcing him to either flee off the table with his lord or charge with one unit and not be able to charge with the edge unit because it would be behind the friendly unit, or he would have to charge with both units and out of 12 models only fight with 6 (which also pushed his lord out of combat.). My opponent charged with both units, got stuck and then I flank attacked into the lords unit and ran both units off the table edge, removing 1,000 points of chaos off the table in the beginning of turn 2. My opponent conceeded as facing 2k points of angry marching dwarves with 1k points of chaos=fail.

Enjoy.

Formosa
14-07-2010, 12:40
40 longbeard rangers, lord with rune of brotherhood and rune of challenge (add any other rune to him if you wish) runic banner with rune of determination and ancestor rune, place unit 11" foward of BS with strollaz rune, march 6" foward and wait, if you get first turn charge if not MroC them

Croaker2
14-07-2010, 13:18
Unfortunately scouts cannot charge on the first turn.

Sygerrik
14-07-2010, 13:44
I feel very bad for the MRoC. It's the same cost and almost the same effect as the Daemonic Gift Siren Song, except worse in every way, because Siren Song affects ItP enemies (and indeed forces them to charge). Siren song was basically Mat Ward's tongue in Dwarf players' ears.

Dead Man Walking
14-07-2010, 14:02
For 25 points its well worth taking even if you end up not being able to use it because the entire enemy force is itp, kind of like taking a dispel scroll to a tourney and fighting all dwarves.

shartmatau
14-07-2010, 14:12
I always take Challenge simply because for a small amount of points its worth the possibility of messing up your opponents plans. I often use it on a Lord with Oath Stone. I would run his unit on the edge of my army leaving the flank easily open. Once there is a unit in side and front within charge distance I force my opponent to charge with one of them. When this happens he is almost invariably going to charge with both, why wouldn't you charge the flank? Well with a good deployment this can mean my Lord in monster unit can draw in my opponents elite unit(s) and just grind them into dust.

Grentain
14-07-2010, 15:38
I was thinking about making this army using a unit of Quarreler rangers and a Thane with the Rune of Brotherhood, MRoC, and a crossbow, and being able to shoot first turn. Second turn, forcing them to flee or charge - and they likely wouldn't make the charge distance, Stand-and-shoot response if they charge. Then, I'd go about shooting on my turn, and then on their turn (if they'd charged earlier) they have the option to try and charge my quarrelers - If I started shooting at optimum range, and they moved the max of 6" on their first failed charge, then they've still only got a 50% chance of making it, rinse and repeat.

Formosa
14-07-2010, 16:16
scouts cant first turn charge... oh well, my tactic is still sound though

shartmatau
14-07-2010, 16:36
actually they can charge, but only if you (the dwarf player) go second.

Dead Man Walking
14-07-2010, 16:37
I always take Challenge simply because for a small amount of points its worth the possibility of messing up your opponents plans. I often use it on a Lord with Oath Stone. I would run his unit on the edge of my army leaving the flank easily open. Once there is a unit in side and front within charge distance I force my opponent to charge with one of them. When this happens he is almost invariably going to charge with both, why wouldn't you charge the flank? Well with a good deployment this can mean my Lord in monster unit can draw in my opponents elite unit(s) and just grind them into dust.

I dont like the stone, something that once used means that I am not allowed to move anymore no matter what? No thank you. In many games (espeacially with marching dwarves) its the late coming unit that throws the game in your favor due to a well timed flank attack. I try not to put my guys in a position where they would be flanked easily.

shartmatau
14-07-2010, 17:10
That's totally understandable. I play the Stone because I have learned to purposefully get flanked. I line up my oath stone toting character in a unit of warriors. If I deployed well then I have set up across from my opponents tough elite infantry and he has knights or some other fast flanking unit on the same side of the board. I want them to flank me, so I give them ample opportunity to do so and by ample I mean I force them to with RoChallenge. It's not for everyone but I happen to like playing that way. I will gladly put a hero and unit of shielded warriors or longbeards in harms way to clog up (and usually defeat) my opponents good units.

Malorian
14-07-2010, 17:40
Getting a free stand and shoot is one thing, but I think it can be better used to draw in defensive units containing a character that you want to kill.

TheDilz
14-07-2010, 18:00
Getting a free stand and shoot is one thing, but I think it can be better used to draw in defensive units containing a character that you want to kill.

Yeah, wizard lords dont like S6 hammers to the face. Drag them through some difficult terrain on the way in and its even better.

Or pull in your opponents BSB unit and kill him off to speed up the rout.

Use angles to force charges where if the enemy breaks he will flee off the table edges... so many nice options for 25 pts.

Formosa
14-07-2010, 22:45
so i actually want to go second with rune o challenge... 25 points suddenly seems cheap

Grentain
15-07-2010, 05:13
Doesn't using the Oath Stone give the unit using it no flanks or rears? I.E., every angle is a frontal arc for the purposes of being charged?

Novrain
15-07-2010, 07:24
yup, and you get supporting attacks all the way around now...