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Phytrion
14-07-2010, 05:50
Hey everyone, I'm playing around with my 2.5k list for Empire in 8th edition. I want to do a gunline/counter attack army using the Perry Bros fantastic napoleonic miniatures (http://www.perry-miniatures.com/salute2009releases.htm)

Here is the list as it stands:

Wizard Lord @ 210 points
Lvl 4; Life

Wizard Lord @ 210 points
Lvl 4; Life or Fire

Templar Grand Master @ 205 points
Sword of Quarrel; Potion of Strength
The idea is with his high initiative, the 6 attacks will make up for the great swords used by the knights, and if there's a big target to bust open, use the potion.

Exactly 25%

Heroes:

Master Engineer @ 65 points

Core:

Handgunners @ 172 points
19x; Full Command

Detachment: 10 Handgunners @ 80 points


Handgunners @ 172 points
19x; Full Command

Detachment: 10 Handgunners @ 80 points

Handgunners @ 80 points
10x

I will have to set this up and see how crowded the board will get, but I figure 70 shots a turn should be pretty lethal, especially with the change to the to-wound chart.

Knights @ 328 points
11x; Full Command; War Banner; Joined by Templar; Great Weapons
The main hammer unit. I'm not sure if I want the war banner anymore since steadfast will reduce the chance of breaking, but we'll see ...

Knights @ 270 points
10x; Full Command; Great Weapons
The other hammer unit

Special:

2 units of Pistoliers @ 97 points a piece
5x; Musician

2 Cannons @ 100 points

3 Mortars @ 75 points each


Some options

I'm considering dropping one of the wizards for an arch lector, which I would put in the other knight unit to add some umph will providing bound spells and magical defense. This could free up enough for another pie plate producing war machine. Or I'm thinking about replacing the TGM with a Warrior Priest in the unit (since as it currently stands 1/5 of my points is in one unit) and putting a BSB in the middle of the handgunner bubble to help with leadership tests. Thoughts are appreciated!

Killswitch<>
14-07-2010, 10:37
I like it, but where will you play using those figures, since GW wont allow them in store?

Templar47
14-07-2010, 10:45
In my experience, gunline armies tend to get very boring quickly, even with your knight units, but its up to you so I wish you luck mate.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-07-2010, 14:26
Two L4's and no Rod? I don't think you will have enough dice to power eight spells, so that seems like a bit of a waste. They also have no protection whatsoever. I prefer to give my L4 a 5+ ward save.

The TGM is quite innovative. The only thing that bugs me - again - is the lack of a ward save. A BSB and WP instead would be a very good idea.

Don't you need 20 men in a parent unit for 10 men detachments? I know that the new rules say that we usually round up but doesn't the AB say something else?

70 shots sounds like a lot but I am very sceptical about the potential. Let's assume you go first - 0 casualties. Your opponent advances ~10" - you kill 11.7 T4 models at long range - he advances again - you kill 17.5 models at short range - you are charged. Note that this assumes you did not suffer any losses at all.

If there is a wood, you are shooting at -2 on the first turn at least (and they won't bog anyone down) for a paltry 6 casualties. If he risks it and charges you on turn 2, and the dice gods are with him - goodbye. If he's got a skirmisher screen as well, you're at -4...and if he has the Stormbanner, it's -6.

Even without race specific banners, there's a spell that is very similar to the Stormbanner, so at the end of the day, I wouldn't expect to hit much.

The Warbanner is 10 points cheaper.

thesheriff
14-07-2010, 22:11
I don't think you need to change the list at all, you've thought about it, 2 wizards and some good artillery should shut down most armies form range.
If i was to change something, i would give your wizard with fire lore The arnour of tarnus and a barded steed. This will give him a save and a place to hide in the cavalry which is a bit more durable than handgunners.

But, it is a nice list, no mistake. And with the cavalry, i don't think it will get boring

thesheriff

Phytrion
14-07-2010, 22:43
@killswitch - There are no GW stores where I live, they're all independent game shops. Since the US has the Indy GT circuit, I don't have to worry about that either. If I earn a golden ticket to Vegas, I'll simply ask for an exception since they're the Perry Bros miniatures :wink:

@Templar - I'm hoping the knights and the disruption factor from the pistoliers adds enough interest to it. Since I'm primarily interested in using magic to buff my existing units, instead of deal damage - I think that will make it more interesting as well.

@Lord Solar Plexus:

-You're right about the two level 4s. Right now I'm playing around with a lvl 4, a lvl 2, and picking up another character. As to the detachments, again good call - I had originally sent the parent regiments to 20.

On the issue of effectiveness: In the updated list I'll post later I cut down 20 handgunners to free up points for another unit ... possible some greatswords or something else. I find it curious; however, that you are skeptical of the shooting, since you said this concerning RichBlake's list, which had 10 more handgunners and 1 less cannon and 2 less mortars :

"I think it could even work to neutralize most combat units soon enough."

Since I'm trying to balance a napoleonic themed empire army, which presumably should have a fair number of guns, with the realities of 8th edition, I understand that the enemy could close in a lot faster now. But I'm hoping that the knights can tie up units I fear the most, while shooting takes out the rest.

@thesheriff - Thanks for the comments. As said above, I think I will tweak my wizard situation and some of my gunline, but overall I'm satisfied with the approach to the army. I'll post my tweaks in a little bit.

Phytrion
15-07-2010, 18:03
Here's my updated list:

Lords:

Wizard Lord @ 240
Lvl 4; Rod of Power

Templar Grand Master @ 190
Sword of Sigismund

Heroes:

Battle Wizard @ 140
Lvl 2; Grey Staff

Master Engineer @ 65

Captain @ 123
BSB; Full Plate; Dragonhelm; Talisman of Endurance

Core:

Handgunners @ 172
19x; FC; joined by Wizard Lord

Handgunners @ 172
19x; FC; joined by BSB

Handgunners @ 172
19x; FC; joined by Wizard

Knights @ 318
11x; Great Weapons; Full Command; War Banner; Joined by Templar

Knights @ 280
10x; Great Weapons; Full Command; Banner of the Eternal Flame

Special:

2 Cannons @ 200

3 Mortars @ 225

Pistolliers @ 104
5x; Musc; Champ

Pistolliers @ 97
5x; Musc

Total: 2498

Reasons for the changes: Dropped one wizard to a lvl 2 to free up points in other areas, but gave him the staff to help with casting. Changed the Templar to just having the Sword of Sigismund because that lets him strike first at s5. Because his I is so high, he should be rerolling his misses, meaning I don't need him to be tossing out 6 attacks.

I redid the organization of my gunmen, because I realized the detachments would really crowd the backfield and limit my cannon placement, especially with knights and pistolliers surging forward ... and if I'm getting charged I've done something wrong.

Damocles8
16-07-2010, 02:40
If you run out of space, try merging two of your handgunner units into a 40 man unit (10 x 4) with a 20 man detachment (20 stand and shoot shots at -1, 20 and no penalty), and you could even win a combat with that...maybe.....

thesheriff
16-07-2010, 09:59
What lores are you planning on taking. I would suggest Life and either shadow or fire.

Phytrion
16-07-2010, 23:17
Right now I'm definitely thinking life and fire. Life is just too good for the support it provides the entire army, while I really want that fire spell that buffs shooting - so now the Q is which lore to give to the level 4...

Lord Solar Plexus
17-07-2010, 06:52
I find it curious; however, that you are skeptical of the shooting, since you said this concerning RichBlake's list, which had 10 more handgunners and 1 less cannon and 2 less mortars :

"I think it could even work to neutralize most combat units soon enough."


The thing is I am highly biased, as much as I try to suppress it. My main opponent plays Skaven and his Banner has lasted for at least four game turns in the last 10 or 12 games. I've killed 2 models with 800 points of missile troops...it's most frustrating as you will surely understand. Then I think about the fact that others don't have such lucky opponents or simply fight WoC, and handgunners or crossbows or WM can suddenly become sickeningly effective!

Try it out for yourself I say.