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DarthMcBob
14-07-2010, 05:29
OK, I've been reading Lord of the Night. In it, Sahaal, the main Night Lords character, goes on and on about how the Emperor betrayed Konrad Curze and how he's going to take vengeance for it. What I don't get is where his logic is coming from. I looked and the only thing I was able to find was the Emperor telling them to be a little less sadistic and brutal in their campaigns. During the Horus Heresy, they joined Horus for little reason that I could see. In other words, the Night Lords betrayed the Emperor, not the other way around. I fail to see what Sahaal is ranting about.

Gyulkus Chaos Saurus
14-07-2010, 05:42
......Finish the book......

Dead.Blue.Clown
14-07-2010, 06:12
OK, I've been reading Lord of the Night. In it, Sahaal, the main Night Lords character, goes on and on about how the Emperor betrayed Konrad Curze and how he's going to take vengeance for it. What I don't get is where his logic is coming from. I looked and the only thing I was able to find was the Emperor telling them to be a little less sadistic and brutal in their campaigns. During the Horus Heresy, they joined Horus for little reason that I could see. In other words, the Night Lords betrayed the Emperor, not the other way around. I fail to see what Sahaal is ranting about.

It's what Sahaal, and some other Night Lords, are convinced happened. There's no evidence for it outside the novels, though. On a more thematic level, it's essentially a narrative technique to have a "good" bad guy: a bad guy who was wronged by even badder guys, and does horrible things because of that fact.

Whether it's true or not has never been revealed, but people who like the book tend to believe Sahaal (even when he's shown by others that he's been deceived) and people who never read it or prefer purely game studio background tend to think it's nonsense.

Son of Sanguinius
14-07-2010, 06:36
Personal Perspective: Konrad knows the Emperor does not believe (at least entirely) in his method of maintaining control through fear. This is reinforced when a particularly favored son, like Dorn, denounces such tactics. In the end, after Konrad's attack on Dorn as his subsequent imprisonment by his brothers, he begins to believe that the Emperor is too weak of will to do what needs to be done in order to maintain a stable and secure Imperium.

Moreover, Konrad was outcast, and relished said position. The twin-sides of his personality have fought for dominance of his mind for years, and the Konrad part of him was brought to the fore by the Emperor. In a way, the Night Haunter side sees this as an intense betrayal of his true self.

Sahaal sees this as well, not in the light of his father's schizophrenia, but in the sense that the Emperor has betrayed what the Night Lords stood for, and betrayed the Imperium.

Lothlanathorian
14-07-2010, 06:58
The way I see is Konrad did all the dirty work that no one else was willing to do. All the things that the Emporer couldn't do. Konrad was the monster that did the horrible things that the 'good guys' just couldn't because it would be bad for them. Like military black ops and spying today, stuff that you need to be able to deny. Like the Agent in Serenity. He had a roll, but, at the end, when everything was put together nice and pretty, he had no place in that world. Sending an assassin to kill him proved that, sometimes, you've got to do dirty things to keep everyone else's hands clean.

DarthMcBob
14-07-2010, 07:08
The way I see is Konrad did all the dirty work that no one else was willing to do. All the things that the Emporer couldn't do. Konrad was the monster that did the horrible things that the 'good guys' just couldn't because it would be bad for them. Like military black ops and spying today, stuff that you need to be able to deny. Like the Agent in Serenity. He had a roll, but, at the end, when everything was put together nice and pretty, he had no place in that world. Sending an assassin to kill him proved that, sometimes, you've got to do dirty things to keep everyone else's hands clean.

All the other legions found ways to control the worlds they conquered without, you know, horribly brutalizing them into cowed submission. The Night Lords didn't go to every world, and not every legion was reprimanded for being sadistic. That proves that there were alternate, workable methods that didn't involve torturing people to death on live television, hanging mutilated corpses in the street, etc.

Also, sending an assassin after Curze was not "to keep everyone else's hands clean". It was because the Night Lords had been brutalizing random Imperial worlds for no reason for a long time and the Imperium didn't like that. Its own Space Marine forces were busy eliminating the home-worlds or other strongholds of the other Traitor Legions outside of the Warp. One of the easiest ways to break a Legion, as was proven so decisively with Horus on Terra, is to eliminate its Primarch. So they sent someone who was very good at eliminating single, high-value targets. Perfectly logical. The mission was accomplished, and a very dangerous rogue Primarch was taken out. Score one for the Imperium.

Lothlanathorian
14-07-2010, 07:40
The Night Lords would go to systems and they would fall in line without a single Astartes ever having to go planetside. Brutality and terror work.

And, I am not absolutely certain, but, I believe assassination was frowned upon before the Big E was sat upon his gilded chair. I do know that the Assassin Ordos weren't formed until after the Heresy.

DarthMcBob
14-07-2010, 07:57
The Night Lords would go to systems and they would fall in line without a single Astartes ever having to go planetside. Brutality and terror work.

And, I am not absolutely certain, but, I believe assassination was frowned upon before the Big E was sat upon his gilded chair. I do know that the Assassin Ordos weren't formed until after the Heresy.

Yes, but only systems that they had already brutalized really badly or ones that had heard enough to be terrified. Also, that sort of thing inspires not only fear, but hatred as well. If you torture half a world's population to death, they're going to be scared, but they'll backstab you as soon as they think they can. They hate your guts, and will only stay in line for as long as their fear outweighs their hate.That's hardly loyalty, which is what the Emperor wanted. That, I believe, is another reason the Night Lords were reprimanded. They made people hate them, and by association, the Emperor and his Imperium, which isn't good when you're trying to unite humanity.

No, it was not. The upcoming Horus Heresy novel Nemesis is about some Imperial assassins going after Horus while he sends one after the Big E. So assassinating Primarchs is not a new idea.

Lothlanathorian
14-07-2010, 08:32
Yes, but only systems that they had already brutalized really badly or ones that had heard enough to be terrified. Also, that sort of thing inspires not only fear, but hatred as well. If you torture half a world's population to death, they're going to be scared, but they'll backstab you as soon as they think they can. They hate your guts, and will only stay in line for as long as their fear outweighs their hate.That's hardly loyalty, which is what the Emperor wanted. That, I believe, is another reason the Night Lords were reprimanded. They made people hate them, and by association, the Emperor and his Imperium, which isn't good when you're trying to unite humanity.

No, it was not. The upcoming Horus Heresy novel Nemesis is about some Imperial assassins going after Horus while he sends one after the Big E. So assassinating Primarchs is not a new idea.


Well, in the scheme of things, it is a rather new idea lol, but I do cede the point.

And, as far as only systems they had been to or ones who had heard enough, there is nothing in the background to support those kind of specifics. As far as anything I've ever read says, the Night Lords would show up in a system that was acting and up and that system would suddenly get its act together.

The Night Haunter worked with his Legion the same way he worked with his world, be terrifying enough that there is no amount of hatred that will push them past their fear. Remember, when brute force isn't working, it's because you aren't using enough.

exsanguis
14-07-2010, 12:47
I do recall reading something about Night Haunter having visions that he would betray the Emperor. So along with his schizophrenic mindset, was he also trapped by his own visions? Doomed to become a traitor by his own prescience...

I seem to remember that being one of the reasons why he was so melancholy and dour (as well as growing up in Mos Eisley on crack!).

abasio
14-07-2010, 12:49
I see it like this

1st the emperor condone the Night Lords' tactics as they were extremely effective in making worlds compliant but at some point he realised that these compliant world's were not loyal but just **** scared and ready for rebellion. So instead of having a man to man with his son and discussing the pros & cons of such tactics and if they really were productive to the aims of the great crusade he denounced Night Haunter and the tactics he had previously condoned. Therefore the Emperor did betray his son just as Konrad Curze had prophesized. But that's just my take on it.

massey
14-07-2010, 13:12
Yes, but only systems that they had already brutalized really badly or ones that had heard enough to be terrified. Also, that sort of thing inspires not only fear, but hatred as well. If you torture half a world's population to death, they're going to be scared, but they'll backstab you as soon as they think they can. They hate your guts, and will only stay in line for as long as their fear outweighs their hate.That's hardly loyalty, which is what the Emperor wanted. That, I believe, is another reason the Night Lords were reprimanded. They made people hate them, and by association, the Emperor and his Imperium, which isn't good when you're trying to unite humanity.


As evidenced by the fact that Nostromo, the first planet Night Haunter brutalized, went right back to its old ways as soon as he was gone.

Reading some of this discussion makes my head hurt. Night Haunter wasn't betrayed. He was a villain. Yes, their tactics were so horrific that planets would surrender without them even setting foot on planet. Then they would still go ahead and torture people. They are bad guys. Just because the Emperor had to reprimand them when he walked in on them eating babies, or whatever the hell it was they were doing, doesn't mean he betrayed them.

Dead.Blue.Clown
14-07-2010, 16:06
As evidenced by the fact that Nostromo, the first planet Night Haunter brutalized, went right back to its old ways as soon as he was gone.

Reading some of this discussion makes my head hurt. Night Haunter wasn't betrayed. He was a villain. Yes, their tactics were so horrific that planets would surrender without them even setting foot on planet. Then they would still go ahead and torture people. They are bad guys. Just because the Emperor had to reprimand them when he walked in on them eating babies, or whatever the hell it was they were doing, doesn't mean he betrayed them.

This is the truth, yeah. As a fan of Si Spurrier's writing, I did several tips of the hat to LotN when I was writing Soul Hunter. But something that can be a struggle when writing 40K is that some fans don't want their favourite factions to be nuanced or given the credence offered by their intentions in any doubt. They just want their faction to be right.

Not everyone, by any means, but a vocal minority. I've seen the kinds of reviews for other novels where unless the faction came out completely victorious and looking utterly correct (in their opinions), then fans say the author didn't get it, or didn't do them justice.

It's something I'm wary of in writing the Night Lord series; if I actually stick closely to the published source material (and I am, as it's my job), it's likely to eventually prove Sahaal (and Talos, the main character in the series) to be wrong in their beliefs. I've always enjoyed novels with that kind of complexity and those kinds of flawed characters - indeed, Sahaal was supposed to be wrong, but it backfired and a lot of the readership preferred his viewpoint as the correct one. They were unwilling to accept the emotional revelation at the end, and instead choose to believe Sahaal was being deceived.

Ultimately, the Night Lords were the gravest example of a primarch that lost control of his own Legion. Their ranks were filled with deviants, rapists, murderers, and the kind of scum that no general could effectively command. They slipped their leash, and that was the Legion's tragedy. Curze's methods were awful - they failed completely, but it was all he knew, and all he could keep trying. That's awesomely tragic. I reckon there's a lot of pathos in that. While you'll certainly get Night Lords that still insist they were betrayed by the Emperor, at the end of the day, it might not be that clear cut.

FabricatorGeneralMike
14-07-2010, 16:40
This is the truth, yeah. As a fan of Si Spurrier's writing, I did several tips of the hat to LotN when I was writing Soul Hunter. But something that can be a struggle when writing 40K is that some fans don't want their favourite factions to be nuanced or given the credence offered by their intentions in any doubt. They just want their faction to be right.

Not everyone, by any means, but a vocal minority. I've seen the kinds of reviews for other novels where unless the faction came out completely victorious and looking utterly correct, then fans say the author didn't get it, or didn't do them justice.

It's something I'm wary of in writing the Night Lord series; if I actually stick closely to the published source material (and I am, as it's my job), it's likely to eventually prove Sahaal (and Talos, the main character in the series) to be wrong in their beliefs. I've always enjoyed novels with that kind of complexity and those kinds of flawed characters - indeed, Sahaal was supposed to be wrong, but it backfired and a lot of the readership preferred his viewpoint as the correct one. They were unwilling to accept the emotional revelation at the end, and instead choose to believe Sahaal was being deceived.

Ultimately, the Night Lords were the gravest example of a primarch that lost control of his own Legion. Their ranks were filled with deviants, rapists, murderers, and the kind of scum that no general could effectively command. They slipped their leash, and that was the Legion's tragedy. Curze's methods were awful - they failed completely, but it was all he knew, and all he could keep trying. That's awesomely tragic. I reckon there's a lot of pathos in that. While you'll certainly get Night Lords that still insist they were betrayed by the Emperor, at the end of the day, it might not be that clear cut.

Wow someone who finally gets it ;) . I loved lord of the night, and I must get soulhunter, its by b-day on the 19th... Want to send me a signed copy for it ADB ?? ;):shifty:

OT- Thank you for posting here ADB. It's nice to see what your views on stuff is as it will soon be cannon, and I must admit, I do like what I see.

Lothlanathorian
14-07-2010, 18:58
I, too, view the Night Lords and the two novels as Mr. Dembski-Bowden describes them, however, nothing in the world can stop me from playing Devil's Advocate. :D

That is one of the things I loved about the Night Lords when I first got into 40K back at the tail end of 2nd Edition. It was an entire Legion that their Primarch could not control. The way I saw it as a starry eyed youth was that Night Haunter didn't betray the Imperium so much as his Legion was like 'Hey, let's side with Horus' and there was nothing Kurze could do about it.

Zothos
14-07-2010, 19:02
I believe the reason for the confusion at the end of Lord of the Night was because the "big reveal" came from the mouth of Acerbus. Generally Daemon Princes are not the most trustworthy of folks.

Also i cannot remember if the part about the Emperor sanctioning Curze's actions was addressed.

Konrad Curze and his Legion have always been villains. I think the question should be were they "necessary villains" in the Emperors mind, until they "slipped their leash". That is what i would like to see clarified.

And if it has been clarified previously and i missed it, Disregard the above;)

DarthMcBob
14-07-2010, 21:10
As evidenced by the fact that Nostromo, the first planet Night Haunter brutalized, went right back to its old ways as soon as he was gone.

Reading some of this discussion makes my head hurt. Night Haunter wasn't betrayed. He was a villain. Yes, their tactics were so horrific that planets would surrender without them even setting foot on planet. Then they would still go ahead and torture people. They are bad guys. Just because the Emperor had to reprimand them when he walked in on them eating babies, or whatever the hell it was they were doing, doesn't mean he betrayed them.

Agreed. It's kind of like in the Caiphus Cain series, where it is mentioned that commissars that rely solely on intimidation for controlling their troops tend to "accidentally" shoot themselves in the back of the head. Twelve times. While unarmed. That's what any planet taken by the Night Lords would be for the Imperium. Difficult to occupy, as the citizens hate you for torturing their families to death, and ready to rebel as soon as they think they can get away with it. The Emperor wanted a loyal (to him), united, and strong human race, not a bunch of cowed and hateful slaves.


I, too, view the Night Lords and the two novels as Mr. Dembski-Bowden describes them, however, nothing in the world can stop me from playing Devil's Advocate. :D

That is one of the things I loved about the Night Lords when I first got into 40K back at the tail end of 2nd Edition. It was an entire Legion that their Primarch could not control. The way I saw it as a starry eyed youth was that Night Haunter didn't betray the Imperium so much as his Legion was like 'Hey, let's side with Horus' and there was nothing Kurze could do about it.

Ah, so that was how it was in ye olde days of yore in second edition. I came in far more recently. I find that unlikely, particularly because of the amount of respect and devotion that Primarchs got from their Legions. The idea that one lost control over the majority of or all of his legion seems a bit far-fetched. Even then, he could have left the traitors and taken any still loyal to him or the Big E and fled to the Imperium.

Spare Change
14-07-2010, 21:16
And, I am not absolutely certain, but, I believe assassination was frowned upon before the Big E was sat upon his gilded chair. I do know that the Assassin Ordos weren't formed until after the Heresy.

If this was the case, it seems to be getting a retcon via Nemesis the Horus Heresy novel.

The Inevitable One
14-07-2010, 22:03
Wait, how in any sense was Night Haunter considered evil before the Heresy?

Asurman
14-07-2010, 23:55
Wait, how in any sense was Night Haunter considered evil before the Heresy?

I'm not sure "evil" would be the word used to describe him; but his brothers found the way he made war unacceptable.

He's actually called out for it by Dorn in The Dark King, after Dorn witnesses it first-hand.

His views, and those of his Legion were not compatible with the Imperium, much like Angron and the World Eaters. It was simply a matter of time, Heresy or no, that a clash was bound to happen with these two Legions and the Imperium.

I'd call Konrad Curze exactly what he was, a "necessary evil".

massey
15-07-2010, 00:14
Ah, so that was how it was in ye olde days of yore in second edition. I came in far more recently. I find that unlikely, particularly because of the amount of respect and devotion that Primarchs got from their Legions. The idea that one lost control over the majority of or all of his legion seems a bit far-fetched. Even then, he could have left the traitors and taken any still loyal to him or the Big E and fled to the Imperium.

I think that's just his interpretation. I never quite got that impression in 2nd edition.


Wait, how in any sense was Night Haunter considered evil before the Heresy?

Because he's a psychopath?

Okay, start with Batman. He's fighting to clean up his city. Then, he realizes that his methods, they aren't enough. Things are getting worse. So his methods become more brutal, more terrifying, until he finally brings his domain under his control. Then, when the Emperor arrives, a garrison is left behind and the Night Haunter leaves. As soon as he is gone, his planet returns to what it was. Killers, rapists, and murderers run wild, because he never dealt with the root problem, he only frightened them until they hid. He recruits from that world, so soon all his men are the very people he terrorized. And they use the lessons he taught them.

But then, he sees war throughout the galaxy. And he goes with what he knows, what his men know. And he turns into this guy (read it in a Marlon Brando voice):


Horror... Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies! I remember when I was with Special Forces... seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out; I didn't know what I wanted to do! And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it... I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God... the genius of that! The genius! The will to do that! Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we, because they could stand that these were not monsters, these were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment! Because it's judgment that defeats us.

And the Night Lords began to pacify worlds very quickly, because they would show up at a school and chop the arms off all the children. He brought ten divisions of those men, and they made a friend of horror. They weren't doing it for the love of the Chaos gods, they weren't doing it because they were supposed to exterminate vile mutants and aliens, they were doing it because that was their way of making war. And they liked it.

The Inevitable One
15-07-2010, 00:55
Yes, he did have a split personality which made him unstable. I understand that in certain scenarios he did the wrong thing, but what about the rapists, the murders, the thieves, the corrupt, and so on? Are they supposed to just be let free to roam the planet of Nostramo or should they be put to justice? Now you could only do it two ways. Putting them in jail would overcrowd it and even if they managed to fit in all those criminals, they would be let out again to do what they did before. The other option is killing them, so that people will be afraid to do what they did. The latter is what the Night Haunter did and it worked before he left.

I have not read any of the Night Lords books, so could anyone tell me which is the first one in the series? Can anyone also tell me if they are good? Thanks in advance.

massey
15-07-2010, 01:09
We put them in jail now. Seems to work. And Night Haunter's solution worked so well that it all went to hell in a handbasket when he left.

FabricatorGeneralMike
15-07-2010, 01:14
Yes, he did have a split personality which made him unstable. I understand that in certain scenarios he did the wrong thing, but what about the rapists, the murders, the thieves, the corrupt, and so on? Are they supposed to just be let free to roam the planet of Nostramo or should they be put to justice? Now you could only do it two ways. Putting them in jail would overcrowd it and even if they managed to fit in all those criminals, they would be let out again to do what they did before. The other option is killing them, so that people will be afraid to do what they did. The latter is what the Night Haunter did and it worked before he left.

I have not read any of the Night Lords books, so could anyone tell me which is the first one in the series? Can anyone also tell me if they are good? Thanks in advance.

Lord of the Night, is the first one. Its a bloody amazing book IMHO. Don't know what comes after that im shure someone will fill in the blanks.

Corax
15-07-2010, 01:43
We put them in jail now. Seems to work.


Yeah, until they get out and do it again.

Asurman
15-07-2010, 02:01
Yeah, until they get out and do it again.

We should clearly be disemboweling them, and nailing the corpses to buildings.. :rolleyes:

flota
15-07-2010, 02:53
Yes, he did have a split personality which made him unstable. I understand that in certain scenarios he did the wrong thing, but what about the rapists, the murders, the thieves, the corrupt, and so on? Are they supposed to just be let free to roam the planet of Nostramo or should they be put to justice? Now you could only do it two ways. Putting them in jail would overcrowd it and even if they managed to fit in all those criminals, they would be let out again to do what they did before. The other option is killing them, so that people will be afraid to do what they did. The latter is what the Night Haunter did and it worked before he left.


he scared them, so as others had mentioned they hid from him, and nostromo was finally at "peace", the moment he was gone the planet reverted to its old ways

Lothlanathorian
15-07-2010, 04:37
I wouldn't say 'the moment'. I imagine it was a quick decline back into old habits, however.

And Kurze didn't have a split personality so much as I would imagine he was bi-polar or manic depressive.

Lupe
15-07-2010, 05:05
Right, here's a novel idea.

Don't use your shock troops to conquer territory, only to leave it without a garrison and some form of government. The Emperor is kind of a ditz.

Seriously, now. You have a whole system crapping their pants and surrendering as soon as the Night Lords are heading their way. Doesn't the Emperor, you know... figure he should send some Arbites and a Governor who knows the works? After all, the Astartes will be needed elsewhere soon enough...

Corax
15-07-2010, 06:55
We should clearly be disemboweling them, and nailing the corpses to buildings.. :rolleyes:

Finally! We agree on something! :D

Lothlanathorian
15-07-2010, 07:03
I think that's just his interpretation. I never quite got that impression in 2nd edition.



Pretty much, yeah. What led me to this, though, was the whole thing where, after Kurze left Nostramo, it slipped back into being the hellhole it was before he showed up. It became Mos Eisley on crack again. And it was these people being recruited into his Legion. The scum of that planet given the power of the Asartes and told to terrorize people because that's whole the Night Lords roll.


His Legion wasn't just using terror tactics anymore, they were being sadistic for the sake of being sadistic, which, back then, I didn't think was entirely how Kurze wanted it. It seemed much more tragic to me that way. So his Legion was going to this extreme and Kurze, having had his visions and being a rather fatalistic fellow, sort of took a back seat and let it happen as he believed this was how things had to play out.