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EndlessBug
14-07-2010, 16:06
So with all high elves getting re-rolls in every round as long as they have >= I values of opponents are they now worse than dark elves?

I've run a few mathhammer scenarios and against:
Saurus Warriors - spears
Chaos Warriors - Tzeentch, shields
Black Guard

Swordmasters rip them all a new one (yep, they don't get rerolls against BG but they still win).

Spearelves I only did Vs Saurus, they still tear them a new one.

BG are the only ones which can and that's if they take the ASF banner - but why would they? They're already I6 and re-rolls in every round, you'd actually have to take it purely for High Elves.

Please tell me I've done something wrong?

Sure, they have no Hydra or ogres and their cav (which I've just realised is immune to flaming attacks but still fears them?! - haha) has been weakened (so has everyones).

Their magic is still darn good. Lvl 4 with staff of sorcery = +6 to dispel thanks very much :), banner of sorcery still very yummy. In fact take a Lvl 2 with Seerstaff. put both on whichever lore you like, choose the crappy spells with the lvl 2 and you're certain to have all the spells you want on your level 4.

Lordmonkey
14-07-2010, 16:37
High Elf what? You did not state which unit you were using.

Did you compare like-for-like in terms of points values? Were you using a horde? Did you consider equivalent and imbalanced frontage in your experiments?

EndlessBug
14-07-2010, 18:57
High Elf what? You did not state which unit you were using.


Swordmasters rip them all a new one (yep, they don't get rerolls against BG but they still win).

Spearelves I only did Vs Saurus, they still tear them a new one.


Did you compare like-for-like in terms of points values?

of course, equal points values, well, within 20ish


Were you using a horde?

nope


Did you consider equivalent and imbalanced frontage in your experiments?

yup, both had either 6xwhatever or 7x whatever

unit sizes were about 20ish

xv8
14-07-2010, 19:30
well to tell u the truth sword masters rip everyone a new one

Skyros
14-07-2010, 20:28
Sword masters are better against small elite units (more kills) and worse against big units of weak stuff units (more kills but who cares? You're facing 10-20 attacks back now instead of zero).

Peril
14-07-2010, 21:04
20 swordmasters vs. 100 Night Goblins with Nets, for the lulz.

Falkman
14-07-2010, 21:17
Lets just disregard the fact that all Dark Elves are cheaper, that Dark Elves have shooting miles ahead of High Elves, that Dark Elves got monsters way ahead of High Elves, that Dark Elves have....etc.
Yes, High Elf units are now better in combat than Dark Elf units, not strange considering they're all more expensive as well.
The Dark Elves as a whole is still a better army than the High Elves.

xv8
14-07-2010, 21:46
high elves can have afew dragons now and i'm sorry but one mage transformed into a dragon or a chimera can kill 3-4 hydras teclis can beat any of your mages in the magic phase and i can have 15 great eagles that can tear your hydras apart

Hydex
14-07-2010, 21:47
MathHammer for you, another useless stat :D

Malorian
14-07-2010, 21:47
I think the high elves ability to destroy magic items will make them key in beating one of the top 8th ed lists out there:

Slann with cupped hands...

L1qw1d
14-07-2010, 22:18
I dunno. personally, I dislike "this army is better now" debates unless the army is significantly different (when there is a huge change, more than a "palette swap"). It's just like buying a car. There are MANY Druchii who always compare our magic to high magic. or our crossbows to longbows in woodelf hands.

Do you have a ferrari? do you have a honda or a zonda? drive them back and forth to every tourney, every social outing, etc. for a year, and it won't matter- the person who maintains it will be driving the "better" vehicle.

It's simple. Dark Elves are better because we're just... better :D:p (this is meant in jest- for some reason, work won't let me post the lol smiley o.O)

Preacher
14-07-2010, 22:48
Well Sword Masters did kinda chew through just about everything they hit in 7th as well.

Yes, High Elfs got some nifty boosts under the new rules, but they will still be a very very small army on the table as always. And their 'worsts' builds you wont really see since Dragons are tough field under the cap when magic has become oh so important(...it seems).

But then again all of this is coming from a Wood Elf player lol

Malorian
14-07-2010, 22:55
And their 'worsts' builds you wont really see since Dragons are tough field under the cap when magic has become oh so important(...it seems).

Maybe we'll start seeing more mages on dragons ;)

(Assuming 2500-3000 game)

Asmodai48
14-07-2010, 23:01
And what happens when your swordmasters get shot at? Not as good as you think.

Malorian
14-07-2010, 23:03
And what happens when your swordmasters get shot at? Not as good as you think.

Same as when executioners get shot at? :confused:

Falkman
14-07-2010, 23:19
and i can have 15 great eagles that can tear your hydras apart
Are you for real?

Hydex
14-07-2010, 23:21
high elves can have afew dragons now and i'm sorry but one mage transformed into a dragon or a chimera can kill 3-4 hydras teclis can beat any of your mages in the magic phase and i can have 15 great eagles that can tear your hydras apart

lol.

You're funny :shifty:

EndlessBug
15-07-2010, 09:27
Lets just disregard the fact that all Dark Elves are cheaper, that Dark Elves have shooting miles ahead of High Elves, that Dark Elves got monsters way ahead of High Elves, that Dark Elves have....etc.
Yes, High Elf units are now better in combat than Dark Elf units, not strange considering they're all more expensive as well.
The Dark Elves as a whole is still a better army than the High Elves.

Well High Elves now get 2 ranks + volley fire for archers and sea Guard, which does close the gap.

A monster way ahead, the Hydra. High Elves get a Hero level dragon and also a Star Dragon.

and at equal points values it should be a close fight, though it isn't. My calculations were = points not = models. Of course 10 HE swordmasters should beat 10 Dark Elf Warriors.

HE magic is far supreme:
1 Lvl 2 mage with seerstaff with beasts - transformation and the signature spell.
1 Lvl 4 mage with staff of sorcery and 4+ ward with whatever lore you fancy - +6 dispel
Banner of sorcery - +d3 power dice

Chaos257
15-07-2010, 10:03
So with all high elves getting re-rolls in every round as long as they have >= I values of opponents are they now worse than dark elves?

I've run a few mathhammer scenarios and against:
Saurus Warriors - spears
Chaos Warriors - Tzeentch, shields
Black Guard

Swordmasters rip them all a new one (yep, they don't get rerolls against BG but they still win).

Spearelves I only did Vs Saurus, they still tear them a new one.

BG are the only ones which can and that's if they take the ASF banner - but why would they? They're already I6 and re-rolls in every round, you'd actually have to take it purely for High Elves.

Please tell me I've done something wrong?

Sure, they have no Hydra or ogres and their cav (which I've just realised is immune to flaming attacks but still fears them?! - haha) has been weakened (so has everyones).

Their magic is still darn good. Lvl 4 with staff of sorcery = +6 to dispel thanks very much :), banner of sorcery still very yummy. In fact take a Lvl 2 with Seerstaff. put both on whichever lore you like, choose the crappy spells with the lvl 2 and you're certain to have all the spells you want on your level 4.

Don't warriors of chaos and sword masters have the same initiative ?

Angelust
15-07-2010, 10:15
Swordmasters were always gravy when they got into combat with other elite units.

The problem was that the opponent always knew that, so would hit them with shooting or magic missiles as soon as possible, or just avoided combat with them.

Although they can reach combat more effectively now, they're still quite vulnerable to shooting and large units of cheap infantry.

T3 5+ save is worse than a marauder with light armor and shield....

EndlessBug
15-07-2010, 10:55
Don't warriors of chaos and sword masters have the same initiative ?

I think they get rerolls if it's equal to or higher.

Vsurma
15-07-2010, 11:34
Why don't you show your math, of the top of my hand I have to question how elven spears kill saurus.

Lets give them 7 wide, so 21 attacks from 21 spears, 14 hit, 4.66 wound, 2.33 dead saurus.
Same cost buys you 17,5 saurus, so 15.17 hit back, 2*6+1*9. 21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 7 wound, 7 dead.

Unless you meant the saurus win, then your wrong.

There is nothing shocking about the best CC unit beating others....

Mewy
15-07-2010, 11:41
Are you for real?

In a 3000 point game, the limit for Rare choices is 750 points. Add the "elite" army rule and High Elves can take as many duplicates as they want within that points bracket. That is indeed 15 eagles.

Falkman
15-07-2010, 11:43
I know they can take 15 eagles, my comment was more aimed towards him thinking he could kill hydras with his 15 eagles.

EndlessBug
15-07-2010, 12:52
Why don't you show your math, of the top of my hand I have to question how elven spears kill saurus.

Lets give them 7 wide, so 21 attacks from 21 spears, 14 hit, 4.66 wound, 2.33 dead saurus.
Same cost buys you 17,5 saurus, so 15.17 hit back, 2*6+1*9. 21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 7 wound, 7 dead.

Unless you meant the saurus win, then your wrong.

There is nothing shocking about the best CC unit beating others....

nice statement. You forgot the spearelves have la and shield which gives a 6+ save vs saurus and REROLLs to hit due to ASF.

21 attacks = 14 + 4.33 hits = 18.33 = 6.11 wounds = 3 wounds = 2.5 after parry save.

Also, thse saurus are how wide?

most likely setup is either 6x3 I assume (based on
2*6+1*9 )

in which case attacks back would be 2*6+6+1 = 19, not 21

19 = 9.5 hits = 6.3 wounds = 5 dead (NOT 7)

7 wide would give 2*7+7+1 = 22

22 = 11 hits = 7.67 wounds = 6 dead (again, NOT 7)



24 Saurus with spears & FC = 318 points (with spears is much much better against most enemies)

26 Speareles with FC = 316

6x4 saurus and 7x4 Elves (7 7 7 5)

27 HE attacks = 18 + 6 = 24 hit = 8 wounds = 5.67 kills (saurus have 5+ save)

25 attacks back = 12.5 hit = 8.3 wounds = 7 dead

that's 18 saurus Vs 20 elves now

Elves: 21 attacks = 14+4 hits = 18 = 6 wounds = 4 dead

Saurus = 21 attacks = 10.5 hits = 7 wounds = 6 dead

14 Vs 14

15 attacks = 10+4 hits = 14 = 4 wounds = 3.67 dead = 4

17 attacks = 8.5 hits = 6 wounds = 5 dead

10 Vs 9

elves 10 attacks = 6.67 hits + 2.22 = 9 hits = 3 wounds = 2 dead

saurus 15 attacks = 7.5 hits = 5 wounds = 4 dead

8 Vs 5

6 attacks = 4 + 1.33 = 5 hits = 3.33 wounds = 2 dead

13 attacks = 6.5 hits = 4 wounds = 3 dead

6 Vs 3

4 attacks = 3 hits = 1 wound = .67 dead = 1

11 attacks = 5.5 hit = 4 = 3 dead

Saurus are left with 5.

ok, perhaps I was wrong, Saurus Vs spears is about equal, in favour of saurus

Chaos257
15-07-2010, 13:22
I think they get rerolls if it's equal to or higher.

I told you HE were OP !

If not re-roll then warriors would own them.

Zinch
15-07-2010, 15:20
So with all high elves getting re-rolls in every round as long as they have >= I values of opponents are they now worse than dark elves?

I've run a few mathhammer scenarios and against:
Saurus Warriors - spears
Chaos Warriors - Tzeentch, shields
Black Guard

Swordmasters rip them all a new one (yep, they don't get rerolls against BG but they still win).

Spearelves I only did Vs Saurus, they still tear them a new one.

BG are the only ones which can and that's if they take the ASF banner - but why would they? They're already I6 and re-rolls in every round, you'd actually have to take it purely for High Elves.

Please tell me I've done something wrong?

Sure, they have no Hydra or ogres and their cav (which I've just realised is immune to flaming attacks but still fears them?! - haha) has been weakened (so has everyones).

Their magic is still darn good. Lvl 4 with staff of sorcery = +6 to dispel thanks very much :), banner of sorcery still very yummy. In fact take a Lvl 2 with Seerstaff. put both on whichever lore you like, choose the crappy spells with the lvl 2 and you're certain to have all the spells you want on your level 4.

I don't know how have you done your maths, but I'll do mine:

- 12 khorne chaos warriors with additional hand weapon (222 points), against 15 swordmasters (8+7) (225 points):

Same I, so they attack simoultanesly.
Swordmasters: 23 attacks, 20.4444 hits, 13.296 wounds, 11.358 after saves
Chaos Warriors: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds

- 12 tzeentch chaos warriors with shield (222 points), against 15 swordmasters (8+7) (225 points):

Same I, so they attack simoultanesly.
Swordmasters: 23 attacks, 20.4444 hits, 13.296 wounds, 8.8641 after armour saves, 5.909 after ward saves
Chaos Warriors: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds

There isn't a big difference, and this is without taking into account that swordmasters die horribly to magic and proyectiles of any kind...

Reynak
15-07-2010, 15:27
I don't know how have you done your maths, but I'll do mine:

- 12 khorne chaos warriors with additional hand weapon (222 points), against 15 swordmasters (8+7) (225 points):

Same I, so they attack simoultanesly.
Swordmasters: 23 attacks, 20.4444 hits, 13.296 wounds, 11.358 after saves
Chaos Warriors: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds

- 12 tzeentch chaos warriors with shield (222 points), against 15 swordmasters (8+7) (225 points):

Same I, so they attack simoultanesly.
Swordmasters: 23 attacks, 20.4444 hits, 13.296 wounds, 8.8641 after armour saves, 5.909 after ward saves
Chaos Warriors: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds

There isn't a big difference, and this is without taking into account that swordmasters die horribly to magic and proyectiles of any kind...

you are forgettign one crucial component in your calculations. HE get ASF.

EndlessBug
15-07-2010, 15:30
I don't know how have you done your maths, but I'll do mine:

- 12 khorne chaos warriors with additional hand weapon (222 points), against 15 swordmasters (8+7) (225 points):

Same I, so they attack simoultanesly.
Swordmasters: 23 attacks, 20.4444 hits, 13.296 wounds, 11.358 after saves
Chaos Warriors: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds

- 12 tzeentch chaos warriors with shield (222 points), against 15 swordmasters (8+7) (225 points):

Same I, so they attack simoultanesly.
Swordmasters: 23 attacks, 20.4444 hits, 13.296 wounds, 8.8641 after armour saves, 5.909 after ward saves
Chaos Warriors: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds

There isn't a big difference, and this is without taking into account that swordmasters die horribly to magic and proyectiles of any kind...

The Elves have ASF so strike before both units, meaning the Khorne unit would all be dead or have 1 guy attacking back by the time they get to strike.

Same with the Tzeentch, though they'd have 6 left, causing 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds and about 3 dead on average.

Zaszz
15-07-2010, 17:43
The argument that SM beat out other elite style infantry point for point, seems built in a vacuum to me. The SMs do much worse then the other listed units against massed cheap infantry because of crummy armor. They also fair worse against shooting due to the same and the lower toughness. Now you may have had a point if say a specific army or two had neither option but I believe both Lizards and Chaos have excellent options for defeating sword masters outside of combat (cheap infantry in mass, or artillery, or magic).

If you are still thinking that they are better point for point just because they beat your elite guy in combat, just remember that the combat doesn't compare all of a units strength and weakness versus the entire game, just one unit, which may be what the unit was built to beat. I mean you wouldn't try to argue that a stone thrower should be as effective against a monster of equal points as it is against a horde of equal points would you? I don't think you would because its fair that its cost effective in one way while cost ineffective in the other, something we should all understand.

Swordmasters are expensive fragile melee power houses. If you want to run low number elite infantry into them prepare for a tossing, they were made for it. If you want to break even send a horde of marauders at em. If you want to make your opponent cry hit em with a hell cannon thing, or a mage. I think any army would be hard pressed to say they just cant beat a low model count, t3 unit with a 5+ save before they reach combat.

popisdead
15-07-2010, 23:20
Not sure what you are saying but it's pretty obvious High Elves are one of the powerhouse armies of 8th edition at the moment.

Paraelix
16-07-2010, 08:17
Sure, they have no Hydra or ogres

Uhhh... Delves have no Ogres either >_>

EDIT- Zinch. FAQ reads HE with Grt Wpns strike first with rerolls (assuming I is = or greater)

pootleberry
21-07-2010, 09:39
The re-roll to hit is excellent but all those return attacks are not. HE have got to significantly tenderise the enemy before charging otherwise they get chewed. As for comparing a dragon to the hydra you must be joking...

Hydra is 75 pts cheaper than the Sun Dragon with a better armour save, better breath weapon, regenerate and two handlers that dish out 6 attacks!

I love the Dragonmage model though so will prob field one anyway and just put loads of dice into blasting things with the mega-fireball!

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 09:58
But your Dragon has Fly, causes Panic tests with only 1 casualty, and has a freaking Mage on the back of it (or a Lord level combat character).

pootleberry
21-07-2010, 10:15
It only causes panic when charging now or if it wounds something with its S2 one-use breath weapon. As for the mage sat on the back I need to keep him well out of range of any missile units; fast reform means a missile unit with musician can reform and still shoot. Hits on the dragon are randomised so the mage still has a fairly good chance of dying, happened the other day against DE repeater crossbows.

Plus, a lord on the back of a dragon is not automatically going to kill the hydra even though it costs much more points. Its not necessarily the hydra itself that's so nasty its that it's so cheap! I charged Eltharion into a hydra the other day (yes, I know it's a griffon but still pretty close) and he died.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 10:31
It only causes panic when charging now or if it wounds something with its S2 one-use breath weapon. As for the mage sat on the back I need to keep him well out of range of any missile units; fast reform means a missile unit with musician can reform and still shoot. Hits on the dragon are randomised so the mage still has a fairly good chance of dying, happened the other day against DE repeater crossbows.

Plus, a lord on the back of a dragon is not automatically going to kill the hydra even though it costs much more points. Its not necessarily the hydra itself that's so nasty its that it's so cheap! I charged Eltharion into a hydra the other day (yes, I know it's a griffon but still pretty close) and he died.

1) Not all shooting weapons can move and shoot.
2) I never said that your character would kill the Hydra... I merely pointed out that I can't ride a Hydra.
3) Want to complain? Definition of Broken; Hellpit Abomination.

An entire 1500 pt army died to one in my last game. And I wasn't controlling it ;-;

SeaSwift
21-07-2010, 10:31
Hydra is 75 pts cheaper than the Sun Dragon with a better armour save, better breath weapon, regenerate and two handlers that dish out 6 attacks!

I work it as 125pts cheaper.

And why oh why do all the people complaining High Elves are cheesy only compare CC (and sometimes magic... without actually comparing them :shifty:) and not shooting?



3) Want to complain? Definition of Broken; Hellpit Abomination.


This thread isn't for High Elves to complain - this is Dark Elves players whining about us being too good. We don't want to complain, we're just defending our race that has cheese called out against it without good reason.

Mandragola
21-07-2010, 11:40
It seems that HE have been improved a fair bit, but not to the point that they are too good. Fine.

Judging by the entirely non-scientific process of seeing what most people are whining about on the internet, skaven seem to be the scary army right now, or at least the army that can field a couple of HPAs to ruin anyone's day.

The Beast Walks Among Us
21-07-2010, 13:53
I'm a little confused. HE elites with great weapons (swordmasters + white lions) have both "always strikes first" (armywide special rule) and "always strikes last" (being armed with great weapons). Under the new rules, I read that these two cancel each other out, so they strike in initiative order as normal. While they may strike ahead of most other troops, based on their high initiative, I don't see how they would get re-rolls to hit (to get re-rolls, you need ASF + higher initiative). What am I missing?

HD300
21-07-2010, 13:55
I'm a little confused. HE elites with great weapons (swordmasters + white lions) have both "always strikes first" (armywide special rule) and "always strikes last" (being armed with great weapons). Under the new rules, I read that these two cancel each other out, so they strike in initiative order as normal. While they may strike ahead of most other troops, based on their high initiative, I don't see how they would get re-rolls to hit (to get re-rolls, you need ASF + higher initiative). What am I missing?

They still ASF with great weapons. It's in the High Elf FAQ, Speed of Asuryan means ASF all the time no matter what.

L1qw1d
21-07-2010, 14:36
1: DE Dragons are Hero level as well. They eat up our HERO points, not our LORD points (p. 89 Our Book)
2: I have watched a game between 2 rivals and the DE BEAT HE magic (Fire, Shadow vs. Heavens & Fire) without the RoH. He was a right jerk about it after, but he DID it. Magic is up to how a person knows how to play magic- more specifically, how a person knows how to rip spells out of the other sides head while having an MR of 5 lol
3: Druchii have been called Cheese from the first day I looked on the intarwebz. When I first played, I only knew of them in Blood Bowl (One of the reasons it was my first army when I re-took up the hobby). The fact that Nys Elves are trying to catch up is encouraging. Maybe they'll last up to the first Magic round now... :evilgrin::angel::D:p:skull:

The Beast Walks Among Us
21-07-2010, 15:17
They still ASF with great weapons. It's in the High Elf FAQ, Speed of Asuryan means ASF all the time no matter what.

Oh ok, I missed that, thank you.

Falkman
21-07-2010, 15:27
1: DE Dragons are Hero level as well. They eat up our HERO points, not our LORD points (p. 89 Our Book)
Yeah, no.
That's not how it works, mounts don't take up any "slots" at all, a Lord on dragon for a total of say 500 points will eat 500 points of your Lord allowance.
Check the FAQ if you're unsure.

PARTYCHICORITA
21-07-2010, 16:04
U have to see the army as a whole. Allthough HE will dominate elite infantry/cavalry in combat they are still T3, 5+ save and numbers or light shooting destroys them.

They also lack cheap units and have no hidra which, when compairing with DE, its a big deal.

Finally their magic is indeed very good but their shooting is awful (even more so with the new 2W RBT) and they have mediocre cores.

Luthor
21-07-2010, 16:52
high elves can have afew dragons now and i'm sorry but one mage transformed into a dragon or a chimera can kill 3-4 hydras teclis can beat any of your mages in the magic phase and i can have 15 great eagles that can tear your hydras apart

Um, no? You can have at max two great eagles in a sub-3000 point game. Over 3000 points you can have four. Four hydras will rip through four great eagles.

PARTYCHICORITA
21-07-2010, 17:05
Um, no? You can have at max two great eagles in a sub-3000 point game. Over 3000 points you can have four. Four hydras will rip through four great eagles.

Actually the FAQd for HE states the "elite army" rule allows them to repeat as many special and rare choices as they want. So up to 10 eagles at 2Kpts.

That's one of the HE stronger points atm

No2Wookie
21-07-2010, 17:43
Actually, I believe the faq meant the swordmasters strike at I value and still reroll hits, not that they retain always strikes first.

And there is no way an equal point group of spearelves are beating saurus warriors, especially if you go the horde route and the saurus warriors don't. Unless you made the mistake of charging the spearelves with your spear saurus, but there's no reason to ever do that as lizardmen.

Falkman
21-07-2010, 19:03
Actually, I believe the faq meant the swordmasters strike at I value and still reroll hits, not that they retain always strikes first.
Have you read the FAQ?
It quite explicitly states that they still strike first, not in initiative order.

No2Wookie
21-07-2010, 20:04
That it does. Second point still stands.

Falkman
21-07-2010, 20:11
Second point being?
The example of spearmen vs saurus? In that case I fully agree with you.