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TMATK
14-07-2010, 17:49
Since warmachine crews are just wound counters now, how does an Orc Bully factor in when it comes to combat?

- When the warmachine is attacked, can we use the Bully's toughness?

- Can we use the Bully's choppa rule for all the attacks? How about his WS?

I don't think the rules cover this situation anywhere, I know the FAQ doesn't.

Yrrdead
14-07-2010, 18:05
I couldn't find any but based off of the other war machine FAQ's here's what I'd say.

- Yes use his toughness.

-No , you can attack with him but as combat is abstracted for warmachines you just roll him separate from the gobbo's.(based on the Cauldron FAQ.)

I would also say that the Bully will be the last model removed as well.

The real strange thing is that you would think that you would be able to get an idea about the differing toughness value based on the Tomb Kings FAQ. But even though Casket Guards are at T4 and Priests at T3 they didn't deal with this. Meh I would simply use the highest toughness available. Its the easiest and fairest I think.

jaxom
14-07-2010, 18:19
Ummm, p.110.

Otherwise the combat is resolved as normal. Attacks should be allocated and then the T is based on the model targetted. In the case of the Bully, I believe that he is a unit champion which means if someone wanted to kill him specifically, they could target him and swing at the higher toughness. They could also simply swing at the unit and kill him with enough wounds like any other combat.

TMATK
14-07-2010, 18:37
Ummm, p.110.

Otherwise the combat is resolved as normal. Attacks should be allocated and then the T is based on the model targetted. In the case of the Bully, I believe that he is a unit champion which means if someone wanted to kill him specifically, they could target him and swing at the higher toughness. They could also simply swing at the unit and kill him with enough wounds like any other combat.

But you can't target the crew, you target the machine and resolve the attacks at the crew's WS and T.

The Bully could be targeted separately in 7th ed, indeed he had to be, but he's not a champion.

Ovassilias
14-07-2010, 19:25
i think you are mixing warmachine shooting and close combat rules.

Shooting: u shoot the war machine and use the machines T. If u make wounds remove crew models. Thats how many wounds u have, u ignore what is written on the machines profile.

Close combat: u choose up to 6 models to attack the CREW and u use the stats of the crew models, WS,I,A etc.

in the case of the bully he has to be attacked seperatelly cause he has a different profile then the goblins and he acts as a champion.

TMATK
14-07-2010, 19:54
i think you are mixing warmachine shooting and close combat rules.

Shooting: u shoot the war machine and use the machines T. If u make wounds remove crew models. Thats how many wounds u have, u ignore what is written on the machines profile.

Close combat: u choose up to 6 models to attack the CREW and u use the stats of the crew models, WS,I,A etc.

in the case of the bully he has to be attacked seperatelly cause he has a different profile then the goblins and he acts as a champion.

I've been thinking about it and you're probably right, except for the part about the Bully acting as a champion. It's not a bad idea for a house rule, but it's never been stated anywhere.

Kugruk
14-07-2010, 22:01
You do however get an extra wound on the warmachine for having a bully :D

Spawn of Icarus
14-07-2010, 23:07
I know with dark elf couldron the death hag with her 2 wounds starts being wounded after the 2 regular hags are both dead (1 wound each) Bully may well be ike that not a champion but just the last crew model to die (and a better hit or two in CC.)

Also in 8th ed books it mentions that war machines have 2 profiles (im guessing its to show which rules are for crew and which are for warmachine)

you would use bullies choppa for as many attacks as he is contributing.
(Maybe if he had 1 attack with choppa but the unit has 3 in total (because he only has 2 other 1 attack crew at the time) use his stats and choppa for 1 and the other crews stats and weapons for other two)

jaxom
15-07-2010, 17:36
Not having the O&G Armybook... How on earth do you add the Bully to the crew unless as a Champion? The new BRB is pretty explicit about what it means to add a champion and I'd expect the Bully to fit the description.

Kugruk
15-07-2010, 17:37
Not having the O&G Armybook... How on earth do you add the Bully to the crew unless as a Champion? The new BRB is pretty explicit about what it means to add a champion and I'd expect the Bully to fit the description.

the same way lizardmen plays get to add extra handlers to salamanders? Because crew is added, does not make them champions in any case.

TMATK
15-07-2010, 17:39
A bully is added as an extra crewman. His main purpose is to kick in the "size matters" rule for the war machine crew. ie The war machine crew becomes immune to panic caused by goblins.

paulb11
15-07-2010, 17:47
p108 under split profile holds some answers.

The majority toughness of the crew is used in close combat.

So T3 I am afraid.

jaxom
15-07-2010, 17:48
An additional handler (Chameleons/Razordons) is the same name and stat-line as all the other handlers. p.92 has a fairly clear distinction which may or may not fit the Bully. I think the crux is whether or not the Bully is an upgrade of an existing crewman (don't recall if O&G treats it buy and then upgrade or as the addition of a non-standard crewman line).

Even if he's not a champion I would think that you'd be able to direct attacks based on the different stat-lines but that's just gut feel and I can't point out a rule to that effect at this time.

Kugruk
15-07-2010, 18:00
p108 under split profile holds some answers.

The majority toughness of the crew is used in close combat.

So T3 I am afraid.

Like TMK said, the only real benefit to having a bully is to ignore panic from other goblins. Not to make the crew any better at close combat. Consequently gives the warmachine an extra wound now too :D

stashman
15-07-2010, 21:41
From Warhammer Forum



Do I benefit from following in close combat?

extra wound
extra attck S3 + choppa
if bully is the last man standing, is he WS3, T4
leadership 7

and for panic checks:
size matters

BRB p108.

Extra wound: yes. "A warmachine's Wounds are always considered to be equal to the number of remaining crew models".

Extra attack Str3: well the normal Choppa rules apply

Bully Last Crew: in this case the Bully's T4 is the 'majority Toughness', so yes this is right. Don't ask me about when there's on Gobbo left too! For Weaponskill, 'you always use [M, WS, BS, Str, Ini, A and Ld] of the crew', so yes the Bully uses his own WS.

Leadership and Size Matters: I agree with Ulbrecht, these are/were the things you buy/bought him for so yes.

Avian
15-07-2010, 22:12
What if there is no majority Toughness (i.e. one gobbo left as well)?

Lord Zarkov
15-07-2010, 22:24
What if there is no majority Toughness (i.e. one gobbo left as well)?

Player whose turn it is chooses? :p