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SiNNiX
14-07-2010, 18:41
Okay, I just got my rulebook today and didn't have too much time to read into it or think about it, but I wanted to ask these questions anyway. I realize the book's been out for awhile now (or atleast people have been reading the rules for awhile now) so these questions might sound kind of stupid, but oh well.

1. In the close combat section, it says that if two models engaged in combat share the same Initiative, they will "attack simultaneously." Does that mean the two enemy models literally attack each other at the same time? Or do you roll for it like you used to?

2. It also said that if you have sufficient models to fill in gaps where models have been slain, you can do so and your models that filled in the gaps can still fight that round of combat. So does that now mean that when the enemy kills your front two ranks, your back two ranks and come in and replace them and attack back in that same round of combat? How exactly does that work?

Thanks!

shartmatau
14-07-2010, 18:47
those rules are exactly as they read. simultaneous means at the same time, so yes they fight at the same time. and yes you get attacks back because dead guys are stepped over and live guys fight in their spot.

Jetty Smurf
14-07-2010, 18:57
1. Yes, you both get full attacks and roll at the same time. (Well, you don't have to roll at the same time, but neither units attacks affects/reduces the number of attacks coming back at them.)

2. As long as you have enough models to attack back, you do. Casualties come off the back rank(s) and play as though that's just what happened, with the front rank(s) getting the maximum attacks back. I.e you have 20 models, ranked 5x4. Your enemy strikes first and 7 die. You still get the front 2 ranks worth of attacks back, since you still have enough models to fill those front ranks.

Hope this helps. =)

Note: If I am wrong somewhere (8th is still rather new), please correct me with a page ref. =)

Loxton1989
15-07-2010, 23:03
2. As long as you have enough models to attack back, you do. Casualties come off the back rank(s) and play as though that's just what happened, with the front rank(s) getting the maximum attacks back. I.e you have 20 models, ranked 5x4. Your enemy strikes first and 7 die. You still get the front 2 ranks worth of attacks back, since you still have enough models to fill those front ranks.


I was under the impression from reading the 8th Edition Close Combat that, as it was in the 7th, a model can be slain before it makes its attacks and so these are then lost. I know that attacks made which exceed those enemy models in close combat are carried over to represent the attackers striking over the fallen but am yet to find the rule which states that the returning force step up....

As an example....

Dark elf spear with ranks 5x4 charges high elf spear ranked 5x4 and by a miracle manages to hit and wound with all ten available attacks killing all ten of the high elf spears which were capable of attacking. As such those ten models loose their attacks and no returning attacks can be made..

This has been confusing me greatly and I have found myself pouring over my rule book looking for clarification. Is this right or am I missing the step up rule? If so what page in the 8th edition can I find it?

I hate the first couple of months after a rule revision...

Thanks,

Matt

Lord Zarkov
15-07-2010, 23:15
p48 "Who Can Stike" tells us models in btb (plus those making supporting attacks) can fight. There is nothing telling us that casulties would prevent models from striking (unlike 6th/7th), so they can if they're still alive.

p.s. you're example's not particualy good as a) HE have ASF so their spearmen will be going first (and even if they didn't combat would be simultanious as they have the same I); b) HE spearmen fight in 4 ranks when the didn't charge (and regular spearmen in 3).

For a better example: 5x4 marauders (I4) charge 5x4 halberdiers (I3) in the front and mange to kill 10. 5 halberdiers are still in btb with the marauders, and there are still 5 models in the rank beind who can make supporting attacks (since they're engaged in the front). Therfore the halberdiers can make 10 return attacks.

Loxton1989
15-07-2010, 23:54
p48 "Who Can Stike" tells us models in btb (plus those making supporting attacks) can fight. There is nothing telling us that casulties would prevent models from striking (unlike 6th/7th), so they can if they're still alive.

p.s. you're example's not particualy good as a) HE have ASF so their spearmen will be going first (and even if they didn't combat would be simultanious as they have the same I); b) HE spearmen fight in 4 ranks when the didn't charge (and regular spearmen in 3).

For a better example: 5x4 marauders (I4) charge 5x4 halberdiers (I3) in the front and mange to kill 10. 5 halberdiers are still in btb with the marauders, and there are still 5 models in the rank beind who can make supporting attacks (since they're engaged in the front). Therfore the halberdiers can make 10 return attacks.

Thank you for explaining it to me and yes I apologize for the weak example I unfortunately cooked it up without considering the special rules.

Regards,
Matt

SiNNiX
16-07-2010, 02:23
Well the returning attacks thing is very clear to me now. However, these simultaneous attacks make no sense to me considering simultaneous would imply you literally roll your attacks at the exact same time as your opponent. So how would this scenario work?

You have 1 Dwarf Warrior engaged in combat with 1 Orc Warrior (let's just say, somehow, this has been made possible). Both have Initiative 2. So, considering they strike simultaneously, both players roll their rolls to Hit at the same time, then both players roll their to Wound at the same time. Both have Hit and Wound successfully. So both attempt to make their saves and both fail their saves. So both models are now dead.

Am I missing something? Or is that really what GW intended... :confused:

acx
16-07-2010, 02:32
Yes the dwarf and orc kill each other at the same time. They both die. The striking order rules are clear on this.

Zaustus
16-07-2010, 03:03
I suspect you're confused because striking simultaneously often has no effect on actual gameplay. Here's an example of when striking simultaneously might make a difference.

Take a unit of 6 Empire Knights charging head-first into a unit of Night Goblins. Both units have I3, so they strike simultaneously. Say the Gobbos manage to kill a Knight. Since both units are striking at the same time, that dead Knight (and his horse) still get to make their attacks.

Now consider those 6 Empire Knights charging into a unit of Chaos Marauders. The Marauders have I4, and will be striking first. They too manage to kill a Knight. Now only 5 Knights and 5 horses get to attack back, since the Marauders killed a Knight before he had a chance to strike.

You don't have to simultaneously roll the dice, but you can if you want to.

SiNNiX
16-07-2010, 05:24
Yeah, that makes it alot more clear. Thanks! So you just decide with the opponent who rolls first because it doesn't really make a difference considering both units will get their attacks anyway. Okay, I guess I like that. :)

Loxton1989
16-07-2010, 09:24
Another quick clarification for myself. In the event that say the DE executioners charge an enemy armed with hand weapons does it mean that as a result of the executioners great weapons they will strike last even on the charge?

Frosty_TK
16-07-2010, 09:26
yes, the executioners strike last. Charging does no longer alter the order in which attacks are handled.

Loxton1989
16-07-2010, 09:26
Ahh thank you.