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The Inevitable One
14-07-2010, 22:14
The Chaos Gods feed on the emotions of sentient beings and feed on the souls of their followers to become more powerful. Without it, they would wither away. So do you think that if the Chaos Gods ever got to the stage where Humanity and the other races were nearly extinct, they would back off for a while and let them repopulate and then start the whole cycle all over?

Son of Sanguinius
15-07-2010, 05:23
Personally, I don't think the gods would even let it get that close to extinction. As long as there is no unified movement to control the emotions of sentient races, the gods could really not give a damn what they do. I think that's why they wanted the Emperor assassinated. I think he was intending to lead humanity into a new age of psychic discipline and harmony, which would severely weaken the gods, if not dissipate their consciousnesses entirely.

TrooperTino
15-07-2010, 08:36
I'm not sure the Emperor had humanitys future wellbeing in mind. I see hints in chaosspacemarine books that show a much darker purpose...

OT: eternal war is what the chaos gods prefer, not extinction. would the imperium been overran, it would break into little empires depending on which god they worship. And like the same gods battle it out every minute in the warp the war would go on in the real universe... and never will a winner emerge from this chaos

RobC
15-07-2010, 09:03
Chaos doesn't behave rationally. Their ultimate success may well result in the destruction of the Chaos gods as discrete entities, but that won't stop them.

They're insane.

Karl MkVI
15-07-2010, 10:42
I echo the above post: the chaos gods' machinations might ultimately be self-defeating, but that won't stop them. they're far past rationality.


I'm not sure the Emperor had humanitys future wellbeing in mind. I see hints in chaosspacemarine books that show a much darker purpose...

what 'hints' are you talking about? I've heard these theories many times, but often people fail to cite any specific source. just curious :)

Hunger
15-07-2010, 13:27
Not this again.

Look, Chaos is not a self-managing thing, the Gods represent the absoluteness of emotion, their nature is that of universal destruction because of the very emotions they represent..

Khorne is a metaphysical being powered by unbridled anger, his essence is derived from insane rage and the lust for martial power. It will fuel the fires of his existance until it has literally destoyed everything. Insane rage that can be restrained if it causes too much damage is not Khorne's thing.

TrooperTino
15-07-2010, 15:02
what 'hints' are you talking about? I've heard these theories many times, but often people fail to cite any specific source. just curious :)

mostly easy dismissable ones... its often stated by chaos marines that the loyalists are puppets only used by a higher force, that the loyalists are getting betrayed and the traitor marines know the truth better than them...
or the battlecry "death to the FALSE emperor". He was the emperor back in the time, so why do they call him the FALSE emperor now? Death to the emperor could be enough... I think the Emperor was not even human



the only real quote I am able to tell you is from Soul Hunter, which I read recently:

“I saw your Emperor. A handful of times, back in the age before he betrayed us all.”................“And,” the Night Lord said to the dying man, “he was no god. Perhaps not a man,” the Astartes smiled, “but never a god.”

It's the "Perhaps not a man" and "betrayed US ALL" that got me here... and I had the feeling there is more to him than the simple good-guy-leading-humanity-to-ascension thing that is laid in front of our eyes over and over again.

My personal theorie is the Emp wanted to become a god, but not like he is now. I think his planed ascension would have consumed the human race... and to be able to reach most of humanity he had to conquer them first and connect them through the webway. That done, after some time in which the other chaos gods would have lost power through the "imperial truth-no worship", he would have been borne, not through worship (that casualy would have lend strengh to other chaos entitys) but through a birth more like slanesh had. The Emp eats all human souls in one go and voila a new chaosgod.

The other chaos gods spoiled his plans, first by creating the lectatio divinatis (or how that book was called) through the word bearers, and than chaining the Emp to the machine destined for magnus through the heresy and so creating a status quo of eternal warfare.

my english isn't really good enough for such a complicated topic but at last I have found ONE quote to support it.... well not realy support it, but... but... mhhhhh ok it's just a theorie :D

edit: oh... and the most obvious one... how can a human being live that long? yes he may be a great psyker, but his live must have lasted allready for thousand of years when he started to conquer earth.

TrooperTino
15-07-2010, 15:14
Oh I remember one more: In HH: Legion about the alpha legion, there is a scene where Gramatticus shakes hands with the Emp and has dark visions about his plans and the future.

Lupe
15-07-2010, 16:18
Chaos is not a unified thing. While its very existence is the greatest threat to humanity, and its success could well mean the worst fate mankind could ever suffer, I doubt it's in any position to wipe the human race from the galaxy.

It's just not in its nature. Long before mankind is even close to extinction, Chaos will turn on itself. There will be anarchy, with far reaching consequences. But when the flames of anarchy burn out, order will prevail, for a time, of course, and then even that will begin to wane, and Chaos will be on the ascendant again.

Barring the complete annihilation of Eldar and Humans by a third threat (such as Necrons or Tyranids), Chaos will survive. And it will not willingly destroy the very things that provide it with sustenance. Corrupt, most certainly. Cull those that don't embrace Chaos? Maybe. Never utterly annihilate.

Green-is-best
15-07-2010, 16:57
Tzeentch shows restraint and control of a sort. In fact, I think you could argue that his sphere of influence demands that.

Karl MkVI
15-07-2010, 19:21
mostly easy dismissable ones... its often stated by chaos marines that the loyalists are puppets only used by a higher force, that the loyalists are getting betrayed and the traitor marines know the truth better than them...
or the battlecry "death to the FALSE emperor". He was the emperor back in the time, so why do they call him the FALSE emperor now? Death to the emperor could be enough... I think the Emperor was not even human



the only real quote I am able to tell you is from Soul Hunter, which I read recently:

“I saw your Emperor. A handful of times, back in the age before he betrayed us all.”................“And,” the Night Lord said to the dying man, “he was no god. Perhaps not a man,” the Astartes smiled, “but never a god.”

It's the "Perhaps not a man" and "betrayed US ALL" that got me here... and I had the feeling there is more to him than the simple good-guy-leading-humanity-to-ascension thing that is laid in front of our eyes over and over again.

My personal theorie is the Emp wanted to become a god, but not like he is now. I think his planed ascension would have consumed the human race... and to be able to reach most of humanity he had to conquer them first and connect them through the webway. That done, after some time in which the other chaos gods would have lost power through the "imperial truth-no worship", he would have been borne, not through worship (that casualy would have lend strengh to other chaos entitys) but through a birth more like slanesh had. The Emp eats all human souls in one go and voila a new chaosgod.

The other chaos gods spoiled his plans, first by creating the lectatio divinatis (or how that book was called) through the word bearers, and than chaining the Emp to the machine destined for magnus through the heresy and so creating a status quo of eternal warfare.

my english isn't really good enough for such a complicated topic but at last I have found ONE quote to support it.... well not realy support it, but... but... mhhhhh ok it's just a theorie :D

edit: oh... and the most obvious one... how can a human being live that long? yes he may be a great psyker, but his live must have lasted allready for thousand of years when he started to conquer earth.


well thanks for taking the time to answer, although I think your theories are far more popular than you realise!! ;)

They call him the false Emperor because they believe he betrayed them all. they genuinely believe that, hence the hate. they believe him to be a tyrant. all this is covered in the HH series though, which it appears you have read, so I won't insult your intelligence! :)

for more answers on your questions about the Emperor (his life-span, etc), may I recommend Lexicanum.com? it is not the most reliable source, but it collects a lot of information on the Emperor, and explains a few of your questions such as his immortality and his current age (he was born roughly 8th millennium BC).



if you're interested, my personal theory about the Emperor is this:

the Emperor is the manifested reincarnation of the last few Old Ones, who either passed down their spirits to the shamans (those who became the Emperor), or actually were the shamans, the shamans of earth being the last few remaining Old Ones, hiding on earth. they used humanity because of their enormous psychic potential.

the Emperor is the Last Great Weapon of the Old Ones; their final gambit to try to defeat chaos, and all evil for that matter (C'tan included). with the knowledge of the Old Ones passed down to him, this theory explains how he knew of the Void Dragon's power, and how he found the golden throne, how he knew of the webway, etc.

the Emperor did indeed intend to ascend to a form of 'godhood', and was 'using' humanity as a tool via which he would try to achieve this. but he wasn't using them because he was corrupt or greedy; he was doing it to save all life from Chaos. after all, what price is the sacrifice of one fledgling race such as humanity, when the entire galaxy, or even the entire universe, is at stake?

the Emperor was using humanity, and was trying to 'become a god'. but he was doing it for a higher purpose, not for any selfish means.

think of it like this; the Emperor was created by the Old Ones as their last deperate effort to defeat chaos. He was a weapon. humanity was his ammunition.

that's what I think, anyway. :) and yes, unfortunately, my theory postulates that the Emperor failed, when Horus crippled him and left the ability to save the galaxy beyond him. Chaos damaged the Old Ones' final weapon beyond repair, leaving the final gambit of the Old Ones in ruins. Chaos won...

Goosey_J
15-07-2010, 20:00
There's just one flaw with your Theory, Karl. If the Emperor was an Old One, or linked to the Old Ones in any way, then why was he purely "pro humanity, anti everything else"? There are a great many races the Old Ones created in the universe, therefore it stands to reason that if the Emperor was in fact an Old One, he would be slightly more compassionate about sparing the Alien. However he wasn't. He butchered most of them in a 300 year crusade in order to establish Humanity as the dominant race (and if he'd had it his way, the only race) in the galaxy.

Karl MkVI
15-07-2010, 20:25
There's just one flaw with your Theory, Karl. If the Emperor was an Old One, or linked to the Old Ones in any way, then why was he purely "pro humanity, anti everything else"? There are a great many races the Old Ones created in the universe, therefore it stands to reason that if the Emperor was in fact an Old One, he would be slightly more compassionate about sparing the Alien. However he wasn't. He butchered most of them in a 300 year crusade in order to establish Humanity as the dominant race (and if he'd had it his way, the only race) in the galaxy.

you're absolutely right, and whilst I cannot offer a definitive answer (as I have wondered at this flaw in my theory before now), my best suggestion is that the Emperor needed the galaxy calm and under control. this is for two possible reasons (and it is eminently possible that both apply):

1) in order for his plans to be carried out in peace,

and 2) (far more importantly, if this is required for his 'ascension' (making note of the fact that we don't know exactly how he planned to ascend)) in order that there might be a greater chance of fostering worship from the human race, thanks to humanity being the most powerful, most numerous, and possibly only race in the galaxy.

thoughts?

Goosey_J
15-07-2010, 23:02
you're absolutely right, and whilst I cannot offer a definitive answer (as I have wondered at this flaw in my theory before now), my best suggestion is that the Emperor needed the galaxy calm and under control. this is for two possible reasons (and it is eminently possible that both apply):

1) in order for his plans to be carried out in peace,

and 2) (far more importantly, if this is required for his 'ascension' (making note of the fact that we don't know exactly how he planned to ascend)) in order that there might be a greater chance of fostering worship from the human race, thanks to humanity being the most powerful, most numerous, and possibly only race in the galaxy.

thoughts?

I like the idea of an ascending Emperor, I really do. Based on the current fluff though, I don't really think there's enough evidence to support it. While I don't claim to have any ideas what the Emperor's plans were for humanity after he'd established them as the dominant race in the galaxy, I'm pretty sure we can rule out ascension because as the Horus Heresy series implicitly states, one of the motivations for the Grand Crusade was the indoctrination of the Imperial Truth. If the Emperor's plan was ascension, it seems a bit anti productive to deny any worship towards him (of which there was a fair bit).

Also, I just don't see the Emperor as the kind of guy that would sacrifice his entire species for what is essentially a selfish purpose. Lets assume he did choose to sacrifice the now pyschically aware human race to ascend to god hood destroy the ruinous powers, what would he do then? Chill in a Chaos free, alien free universe/empyrean on his own? Doesn't really sound like a likely result of a plan formed by the greatest living being ever to have existed.

No, I'm afraid I take my Emperor with a good, hearty dose of predictability, conspiracy free if you please.

Hunger
16-07-2010, 07:29
Tzeentch shows restraint and control of a sort. In fact, I think you could argue that his sphere of influence demands that.

Tzeentch shows no restraint at all - there is a well known quote from his description (which I don't have to hand) that states that Tzeentch constantly strives for supremacy over the other Gods, however such is his ever-changing nature that when he finally achieves his victory he will inevitably upset the balance.

Khorne kills and destroys until there is nothing left to kill or destroy.
Slaanesh overloads the senses so far it leads to an absence of emotion.
Nurgle causes everything to decay until it rots to nothingness.
Tzeentch causes change to the point of perpetual instability.

Green-is-best
16-07-2010, 08:57
But he's also a schemer and schemes require a degree of restraint to execute.

Hunger
16-07-2010, 10:10
Perhaps, but then that leaves the door open to the line of thinking that goes:

Tzeentch shows restraint in his individual schemes --> Tzeentch can therefore exercise restraint in his masterplan --> Aside from being counterpoint to established fluff regarding Tzeentch, it also means he is no longer self-defeating, in fact his purpose as the God of eternal scheming is defeated --> If Tzeentch can break the bonds of his existance like this, the other Gods should be able to as well --> The Chaos Gods are not divine manifestations of ultimate emotional consequences, they are just beings that like different aspects of violence, scheming, pleasure and entropy.

This is fine if you see them that way, but I see them more as true collections of emotion - to me they are not understandable as living creatures who think and act the same way we do. They are a primal force of nature, like fire or the wind.

Tzeentch is the expression man's manipulation of his fellows. He (metaphorically speaking) is a pupper master, and every person that plots against other sentient creatures, who has ever existed or ever will exist throughout time, hangs by a string. Trouble is that Tzeentch manages all schemes equally and without restraint, whatever their goal, so not all of them succeed.

For example, the evil Count Kargoz wishes to destroy the universe using a doomsday weapon powered by the rare element improbabilitium. The neutrally aligned Lord Gradvann plans to hoard all the improbabilitium for himself to make a giant palace out of it. Captain Ace Goodheart is on a mission to stop Kargoz from destroying the universe by destroying all the improbabilitium himself. Many other factions are also plotting how to acquire the improbabilitium for their own purposes, and if any one faction manages to obtain it all, the rest will still plan how they can steal it back.

The forces of 'Good' and 'Evil' are both schemers in their own way, and two 'Good' factions can operate independently and get in each others' way, just as two Evil factions can be enemies if their plans conflict with each other. In this way the universe is always in flux, each scheme Tzeentch has his hand in is played out to its fullest extent without restraint, and yet everything is balanced.

TrooperTino
16-07-2010, 15:57
Thanx for your theorie Karl MKVI, it sounds very interesting and has a good connection to the shaman-symbiose...
;which I'm still unsure iff its official or not... but I don't realy care if it is, it has been so long floating around and is a good explanation for his longlivety and powers in general;
... The shaman thing smells too much like old ones to be overlooked.

so, why not? Maybe the Old Ones had the feeling with their creation of psychik races they had created an unnessasary evil, and its in their responsebility to cure it (weaken the chaos gods to the state they had before the cration of all those race-weapons against the C'Tan).

But I don't see the Old Ones so united. Some tried it with the Emperor like you said, but the Tau smell like old ones, too. So there are still some out there perhaps. Weakend to a state they have to use the Eldar to help establish the Tau as a dominant race... and those Old Ones don't want to destroy all other races (in contrast to the old ones forming the Emperor) but are trying a more calm-culture way to keep emotions on a low level.

The Emperor-Plan may have been to consume the human race after it (humans) have destroyed all other alien races and become the greatest god ever, and so ruling the warp like the old ones once ruled the galaxy.

Or... keeping humanity as the dominant race of the galaxy (alive). A race controlled and guided by them. To get this level of influence over all sentient beings in the galaxy they had to destroy all other races they don't have direct control over. The Eldar are an exception eventually... and surprise surprise there is not ONE serious attempt to destroy them during the great crusade that is known of.

and i wanna express my feelings that the Emperor and his plans to "calm the warp" in what way ever and because of whatever ambitions, has a direct connection to the topic we are posting in... :D

Philip S
16-07-2010, 20:05
The Chaos Gods feed on the emotions of sentient beings and feed on the souls of their followers to become more powerful. Without it, they would wither away. So do you think that if the Chaos Gods ever got to the stage where Humanity and the other races were nearly extinct, they would back off for a while and let them repopulate and then start the whole cycle all over?
Probably not. They are more like a force of nature. It would be like global warming induced flood killing millions, the flood would not care if the humans die and this would reduce carbon emissions, it's a flood (assuming global warming is true and could lead to floods that kill millions). It may be the same for the chaos gods.

The true nature of the chaos gods is a bit fictional, as they are more personifications of certain powers - like 'death' is personified as the grim reaper, a skeleton with a scythe, but death is not really like this at all. Same for chaos.

The only being we get to see are demons, and they are probably shaped by the summoners exceptions and what they imagine they are summoning as much as by their patron god.

It may be the chaos gods are not really as humans imagine them to be - it's merely the human mind desperately trying to make sense of, and rationalise, chaos. Chaos is chaos and cannot be rationalised or pigeon-holed. It will change. Once you think you know it, it's changes and catches you out.

About the only constant is that it's not constant.

Philip

Son of Sanguinius
16-07-2010, 20:17
Probably not. They are more like a force of nature. It would be like global warming induced flood killing millions, the flood would not care if the humans die and this would reduce carbon emissions, it's a flood (assuming global warming is true and could lead to floods that kill millions). It may be the same for the chaos gods.

The true nature of the chaos gods is a bit fictional, as they are more personifications of certain powers - like 'death' is personified as the grim reaper, a skeleton with a scythe, but death is not really like this at all. Same for chaos.

The only being we get to see are demons, and they are probably shaped by the summoners exceptions and what they imagine they are summoning as much as by their patron god.

It may be the chaos gods are not really as humans imagine them to be - it's merely the human mind desperately trying to make sense of, and rationalise, chaos. Chaos is chaos and cannot be rationalised or pigeon-holed. It will change. Once you think you know it, it's changes and catches you out.

About the only constant is that it's not constant.

Philip

The birth of Slaanesh leads me to believe that the sentience of the deity (and I would argue, its identity) is dependent on a power level. Be it 9000 or otherwise. If I am right, would that mean then that a sufficient draining of energy would cause the warp storm's identity to dissipate? Or do you think that the identities are more permanent things now that they have been established?

Malice313
17-07-2010, 13:29
The Chaos Gods feed on the emotions of sentient beings and feed on the souls of their followers to become more powerful. Without it, they would wither away. So do you think that if the Chaos Gods ever got to the stage where Humanity and the other races were nearly extinct, they would back off for a while and let them repopulate and then start the whole cycle all over?

A great many of the most powerful human emotions are self destructive and irrational, why would a being created entirely of emotion rationalise self preservation?

I think this is why Chaos as a religion has no real eschatology and focuses more on living from moment to moment.

Karl MkVI
18-07-2010, 15:52
I like the idea of an ascending Emperor, I really do. Based on the current fluff though, I don't really think there's enough evidence to support it. While I don't claim to have any ideas what the Emperor's plans were for humanity after he'd established them as the dominant race in the galaxy, I'm pretty sure we can rule out ascension because as the Horus Heresy series implicitly states, one of the motivations for the Grand Crusade was the indoctrination of the Imperial Truth. If the Emperor's plan was ascension, it seems a bit anti productive to deny any worship towards him (of which there was a fair bit).

true, and I agree with you. I also refute the idea that he was secretly fostering worship. such conspiracies as 'he deliberately pushed Lorgar down the path of chaos' and 'he started the heresy deliberately' do not fly with me at all. they're nonsense, IMO. however, and if I'm clutching at straws then feel free to let me know, but my notion would be this; the Emperor wiped out all forms of religion and worship, and then let the people gradually take him on as their deity; by destroying all notions of the existence of any other gods, he left himself as the only possible option for people to worship. this would have the double effect of;
1) making worship of the Emperor stronger than it could ever have otherwise hoped to be, and
2) making the 'timing' and such of it perfectly suited to his plans.


Also, I just don't see the Emperor as the kind of guy that would sacrifice his entire species for what is essentially a selfish purpose. Lets assume he did choose to sacrifice the now pyschically aware human race to ascend to god hood destroy the ruinous powers, what would he do then? Chill in a Chaos free, alien free universe/empyrean on his own? Doesn't really sound like a likely result of a plan formed by the greatest living being ever to have existed.

I see what you're saying, but think of it this way; why does the hero ever fight the good fight? so that there can be peace and happiness at the end. whatever his methods, his plan is always to defeat chaos, one sympathizes.


No, I'm afraid I take my Emperor with a good, hearty dose of predictability, conspiracy free if you please.

this'll amuse you; so do I. I absolutely want the Emperor to be a conspiracy-free paragon, to turn out to only have ever had the best intentions, to be our hero, not the hero of 'good' or the hero of the Old Ones. and i hope it turns out that way. however, if there is a conspiracy, if the Emperor does have ulterior motives, as so many people (particularly on these very forums) postulate, then I think mine has the best balance; he is still fighting for 'good', even if his methods are harsh and uncaring. because he's fighting for all things, and has the weight of every race on his shoulders. in essence, he is therefore still a good guy, if not the one we want him to be.

consider this; have you seen/read Watchmen? The Emperor, to me, is Dr Manhatten through and through; he is so far removed from humanity that he cannot understand us anymore, etc etc. and at the end of the Heresy, when his plans to use and abuse humanity as his tool have fallen apart, he is faced with a choice; either:

a) sacrifice himself to save humanity, in a gesture of good (even if it may be a gesture that is futile and pointless), by boarding Horus's ship, even though he seems rather aware that it may be his end.

or

b) stop caring, abandon humanity to the predations of chaos, escape, etc etc. something like along those lines.

Dr Manhatten chooses to let the entire globe believe that he killed millions of people, because it is what humanity needs. he discovers something in his heart that makes him care once again. the Emperor, at the end, also rediscoverd some shred of humanity, and does the right thing, by sacrificing himself.

I would prefer that he makes that sacrifice for the reasons that you say; he is our hero, a true hero, and does the good thing at the end. it make the story better. he feels guilty, he is the only one who can save us, etc etc. however, as I said; if there is a conspiracy, I think mine makes the best of his character; still good at heart, even if his methods for saving the galaxy might mean the sacrifice of his own race. in fact, in certain ways, one could suggest that this deepens his character; he knows all along that he will have to do such awful things, and bears this burden throughout.

in any case, the reason i prefer my thoery is that others i have read ('he wants to ascend because he is selfish and fancies himself as a god', for example), completely ruin the character. why, if the bracketed theory were the case, would he ever risk taking on Horus? why would compassion stop him from killing him until he had no other option? some other theories even postulate that he got himself put on the Golden Throne deliberately. this, to me, is rubbish, and, even worse, ruins the character, and with it the entire story of the Great Crusade and the Heresy. trying to claim that the Emperor wanted to end up on the Golden Throne so that he could gradually ascend is total garbage, IMO.

I still don't like the shaman fluff anyway. for me, a bit of WHFB fluff would fit well here; why did Sigmar ever turn up, who was he, why was he so powerful, etc? it doesnt matter. hes a hero and thats that. no conspiracies, just a godlike being who happened to turn up. why not? i see no problem with this at all.

in any case, Im with you; for story purposes, the Emperor being a true hero, one out to save humanity, makes the narrative of the character so much better. it makes the whole story of the great crusade and the heresy a much greater tale; one of brotherhood and heart-breaking betrayal and such, as opposed to daft conspiracies and ulterior motives. for me, this is how the Heresy would be told were it a standalone story; in film, for example. unfoirtunately, the fact that it has so much bearing on the cuurent 40k universe means that there may well be conspiracies. I hope not, however; it works much better as a story without them. I can put up with "the Emperor and the Void Dragon", and bits like that, because they dont directly affect the Heresy itself, but I dont want any conspiracies such as the Emperor trying to ascend; i dont even want my thoery to be right, tbh! :)