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gloriousbattle
15-07-2010, 04:46
The Warhammer 20K thread gave me the idea for this. Anybody remember the old TSR game Gamma World? Earth is destroyed by a nuclear war and the PCs are survivors in the post-apocalyptic wreckage?

Seems like this could be turned into a pretty good Warhammer background with relatively little change. Warp daemons stalk the land inhabiting possessed psykers, mankind is in utter chaos, completely cut off from their once-vast interstellar empire, and the PCs are barbarians (some probably mutants and emergent psykers) trying to survive.

In the midst of all this, the man who will one day become the Emperor is a wandering good-deed-doer, who might even link up with the PCs and give them some adventuring opportunities. If they are worthy enough, they might even become the ancestors of the space marines, the adeptus custodes, or the inquisition.

Whaddaya think? Would you play such an rpg?

gloriousbattle
15-07-2010, 13:38
Hmm. Maybe I put this one in the wrong place? I thought about putting it in rpgs, but since it is so much about the proto-Imperial universe, I thought I'd try it here first.

This will be the only "bump it to the top" post that I make, and if no one replies after this, I'll let it die a peaceful death, but is NO ONE really interested in this period of the 40K universe' history?

Iuris
15-07-2010, 14:47
I think the main problem with the idea is that it's pre-40k and therefore has practically no connection to the 40k that attracts us as fans.

A post-40k world, maybe, it'd be one that would derive from the one that we already have.

But Dark age of technology? It can encompass EVERYTHING. Star trek and Dune might as well be parts of 40k history - after all, Dune takes place iirc between 11th and 15th millenium. All the space travel technologies could simply be explained by advanced application of warp technology combined with "the warp was still calm in those days".

gloriousbattle
15-07-2010, 19:41
I guess, but surely the halcyon days of the Emperor bringing order back to Earth would interest somebody?

Green-is-best
15-07-2010, 19:54
I guess, but surely the halcyon days of the Emperor bringing order back to Earth would interest somebody?

I think you've got your timeline waaaaaaay off. The unification wars were in the 28th or 29th millennium.

10k is during the Age of Terra, before the Dark Age of Technology. AoT runs from 1m to 15m, so it is obviously rather vague.

gloriousbattle
15-07-2010, 20:48
I think you've got your timeline waaaaaaay off. The unification wars were in the 28th or 29th millennium.

10k is during the Age of Terra, before the Dark Age of Technology. AoT runs from 1m to 15m, so it is obviously rather vague.

Been awhile since I read it, admittedly, but whatever the numbers, what about the setting? There would be a lot of ruins on earth, a lot of technology to scavenge, and a LOT of daemons and crazy psykers running around.

Sounds like a fun place to me! ;)

jlmb_123
15-07-2010, 21:12
I don't think that Earth was necessarily a post-apocalyptic place, although there were doubtless nuclear holocausts. I'd imagine the pace of technology and barbarism, or cultural declines and peaks to be constantly shifting, and even happening at the same time. Human culture always quickly adapts - Eurasia and Africa are still living 'amongst the ruins' of great and powerful empires, societies and cultures, but we have very little conscious interaction with them.

Finding a storyline whose objective is anything than surviving in a big man's world will be difficult, and basically add up to vanilla sci-fi, regardless of the Warhammer tag.

Just another point, mankind's stellar empire was tiny until the navigator gene was isolated, which roughly heralded the beginning of what the Imperium calls the Dark Age of Technology, so the sense of scale in 40k would be lost by the fact that it's basically be a projection of Earth's political system onto the Sol system, a background mechanic which several sci-fi wargames and spaceship games currently available follow.

barrangas
15-07-2010, 23:21
The Dark Age of Technology started in 15k with Humans sending out subluminal colony ships. Warp Drive was developed in 18k. Navigators are discovered in 22k. The Age of Strife begins in 25k. You can use this for info (provided to me by IvanTeh): http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Timeline


Finding a storyline whose objective is anything than surviving in a big man's world will be difficult, and basically add up to vanilla sci-fi, regardless of the Warhammer tag.

Just another point, mankind's stellar empire was tiny until the navigator gene was isolated, which roughly heralded the beginning of what the Imperium calls the Dark Age of Technology, so the sense of scale in 40k would be lost by the fact that it's basically be a projection of Earth's political system onto the Sol system, a background mechanic which several sci-fi wargames and spaceship games currently available follow.

I would argue that Warhammer 40k is vanilla sci-fi as it takes from a number of pre-existing SF settings like Dune or Aliens. If it presented a completely original concept from the out set then it wouldn't be vanilla.

The scale of humanity's expantion would be up to the storyteller. It could be small or big, as humanity has 7 thousand years of colonization before navigators show up. Since one of the major goals of the Great Crusade was to reunite with the lost human colonies, I'd say it'd have to be big. There is also the Eldar Empire still standing. You also assume that all of humanity is unitied. Considering that there are colonies that were out of touch with earth for 3000 years, Humanity's territory might only be united by a galactic version of the UN.


I think the main problem with the idea is that it's pre-40k and therefore has practically no connection to the 40k that attracts us as fans.

For the DAoT timeline I will have to disagree on this. GW has given some info on this which can easily tie 40k into it. The Imperium uses scraps of the technologies that they can still cobble together from the DAoT. The Eldar and Orks are around. We also know that there was a war with the Men of Iron, who were created by humans. You have fluff that you can use for earlier time periods but a lot of freedom to work with.

I'd say the big problem with generating interest is that there are no Space Marines. I can understand why this is a downside to GW, as marines make money. For fans of 40k, I think this is sad. I swear that there are some people who play 40k who would want the only army in the game to be Space Marines.

To keep OT, I'd avoid doing anything before the DAoT as you'd either be doing all human all the time or no humans.

gloriousbattle
16-07-2010, 00:36
I don't think that Earth was necessarily a post-apocalyptic place, although there were doubtless nuclear holocausts.

I thought the problem was warp daemons popping out everywhere, and the new warp storms cutting earth off fromthe rest of the galaxy. Nuclear wars, as you say, would probably only be incidental to all of this, but it would still be pretty nasty and apocalyptic.

Kage2020
16-07-2010, 01:18
Been awhile since I read it, admittedly, but whatever the numbers, what about the setting? There would be a lot of ruins on earth, a lot of technology to scavenge, and a LOT of daemons and crazy psykers running around.
Well, other than psykers didn't really begin to show up into the human population until around the beginning of the Age of Strife. Indeed, it is one of the signal events that led to the Age of Strife...

Kage

gloriousbattle
16-07-2010, 01:26
Well, other than psykers didn't really begin to show up into the human population until around the beginning of the Age of Strife. Indeed, it is one of the signal events that led to the Age of Strife...

Kage

That's the whole idea, gaming the Age of Strife. People are getting too wrapped up in the number, which I guess was a mistake. I am talking about gaming the Age pf Strife.

Kage2020
16-07-2010, 02:18
That's the whole idea, gaming the Age of Strife. People are getting too wrapped up in the number, which I guess was a mistake. I am talking about gaming the Age pf Strife.
Fair enough.

So you're wanting to run a pre-post-apocalyptic setting to a post-pre-post-apocalyptic setting?

:shifty: :D

Kage

gloriousbattle
16-07-2010, 02:30
Fair enough.

So you're wanting to run a pre-post-apocalyptic setting to a post-pre-post-apocalyptic setting?

:shifty: :D

Kage

What could be simpler?

Kage2020
16-07-2010, 02:30
You have a point. :D

Kage

Iuris
16-07-2010, 08:02
So you're wanting to run a pre-post-apocalyptic setting to a post-pre-post-apocalyptic setting?

Hold it right there, I'll need an calculator, almanac and two coffees to get my mind to process that one ...

gloriousbattle
16-07-2010, 20:56
Hold it right there, I'll need an calculator, almanac and two coffees to get my mind to process that one ...


Or just go insane. We did, and it worked out a whole lot better. :D :evilgrin: :D :evilgrin: :D :evilgrin:

MOMUS
17-07-2010, 05:57
I think it could be a good way to add alot of fluff to an unknown area, how did you imagine the gameplay/mechanics/setting?
Im thinking something like a world-wide mordheim. My only worry would be its so far removed from the 40k universe that not all players would be interested.

gloriousbattle
17-07-2010, 14:39
I think it could be a good way to add alot of fluff to an unknown area, how did you imagine the gameplay/mechanics/setting?
Im thinking something like a world-wide mordheim.

That would probably work, though I think I'd use the original Rogue Trader rules and equipment/weapons; just less reinventing of the wheel.

Inquisitor is also flexible enough to work.

malika
17-07-2010, 15:42
Only thing is that we don't really have any info on that era, we don't know what technology was used. The STC's werent around then if I recall correctly. What would you then use to still keep it recognisable to the 40k universe?

Col. Tartleton
17-07-2010, 15:43
I don't even see the point of this. You have about 10,000 years to play with in a setting with 1,000,000 human controlled planets alone let alone the million that have fallen to the mutant, the alien, and the heretic. You have Eldar raiders moving around in hundreds or thousands of moon or even planet sized space ships engaging in wars involving countless soldiers to save their future. Ork Waaaaghs so massive in size that they can overwhelm hundreds of planets in one go as they snow ball through space. Unnatural legions of chaos filled with trillions of hideous mutants led by giant demonic warriors...

10,000 years, 1,000,000 planets, that's easily billions of campaigns, wars, battles, contingency operations, skirmishes. Do you really need more space to play in?

malika
17-07-2010, 16:03
Why not? The 40k universe deals with at least 60 million years of history...

Kage2020
17-07-2010, 16:24
And what's the problem with fleshing out the 40k universe? It's not as if we're really inundated with details. How many questions are answered with "it depends," or the suggestion that the sheer joy of the 40k universe is that you have to make up this information yourself?

Kage

gloriousbattle
17-07-2010, 18:40
I don't even see the point of this. You have about 10,000 years to play with in a setting with 1,000,000 human controlled planets alone let alone the million that have fallen to the mutant, the alien, and the heretic. You have Eldar raiders moving around in hundreds or thousands of moon or even planet sized space ships engaging in wars involving countless soldiers to save their future. Ork Waaaaghs so massive in size that they can overwhelm hundreds of planets in one go as they snow ball through space. Unnatural legions of chaos filled with trillions of hideous mutants led by giant demonic warriors...

10,000 years, 1,000,000 planets, that's easily billions of campaigns, wars, battles, contingency operations, skirmishes. Do you really need more space to play in?

Do you play nothing other than 40K? No D&D? FOW? Anything? I like gaming with different ideas and genres.

gloriousbattle
17-07-2010, 18:41
Only thing is that we don't really have any info on that era, we don't know what technology was used. The STC's werent around then if I recall correctly. What would you then use to still keep it recognisable to the 40k universe?

I think the STCs are actually from the Dark Age of technology, which is the immediately prior period. They certainly weren't created during the Age of Strife, or by the Imperium.

malika
17-07-2010, 19:16
The Dark Age of Technology more or less begins in m15. From m15 until m18 colonies are self reliant because humanity lacks the technology for speedy travels between the colonies. So human factions would be rather boring to play. Around m18 the Warp drives are introduced, first contact with aliens is established, wars are fought. Psykers slowly start to appear amongst the human populations.

From m21 things start to get more interesting, Titans are invented, humans start to introduce Terran lifeforms on other worlds to "terraform" them. M22 brings the Navigators and STC templates.

Note that this whole period could be marked as "the Dark Age of Technology", but that the "Golden Age" with all its marvels is only from M22 until M25.

So what are you after?

gloriousbattle
17-07-2010, 21:07
The Dark Age of Technology more or less begins in m15. From m15 until m18 colonies are self reliant because humanity lacks the technology for speedy travels between the colonies. So human factions would be rather boring to play. Around m18 the Warp drives are introduced, first contact with aliens is established, wars are fought. Psykers slowly start to appear amongst the human populations.

From m21 things start to get more interesting, Titans are invented, humans start to introduce Terran lifeforms on other worlds to "terraform" them. M22 brings the Navigators and STC templates.

Note that this whole period could be marked as "the Dark Age of Technology", but that the "Golden Age" with all its marvels is only from M22 until M25.

So what are you after?

My dates may be wrong, but, as I explained earlier, what I am thinking of is a game set on earth during the Age of Strife when all the crazy mutant/daemon/psykers are running around destroying everything, and the man who will be the emperor is just starting to try to set it all to rights.

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-07-2010, 09:31
Do you play nothing other than 40K? No D&D? FOW? Anything? I like gaming with different ideas and genres.

Me too, but I have to say that for something like this I wouldn't pick 40k to do it with.
I don't think there is a problem with using that setting for a game, it could make for quite a decent skirmish/roleplaying game (if you like post-apocalyptic rpgs) I think. I just don't think the setting you have chosen will bear much resemblance to 40k as we know it in general. Some of the same technologies might feature and a few selected bits of the cosmology will be relevant (Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle basically), but you wouldn't have any of the alien races or any of the imperial institutions we know from 40k.

So there is nothing wrong with the idea. It's just a completely different game/thing with some vague influence from 40k so you are pretty much going to have to develop anything you want for it from scratch.

malika
18-07-2010, 10:18
So basically M25-M29? All based on Terra or also other planets?

Idaan (or was it Ikaan) was working on a similar project many many moons ago, it was also on Warseer, had quite a lot of interesting info about the factions of that time.

Malice313
18-07-2010, 12:23
The Warhammer 20K thread gave me the idea for this. Anybody remember the old TSR game Gamma World? Earth is destroyed by a nuclear war and the PCs are survivors in the post-apocalyptic wreckage?

I do remember it. I preferred Twilight 2000 for the post apocalyptic genre though.

I have been watching a few post apoc movies lately, reliving the terror of my childhood growing up in the Reagan/Thatcher era of M.A.D.

There is actually a lot of other post apoc scenarios outside of a nuclear one, though it seems that America was more obsessed with the nuclear. Britain explored the others more with stuff like Last Blade of Grass, and Day of the Triffids (which still stands up alright today).

Interestingly though Car Wars was an American game that focused on a similar scenario to Last Blade of Grass.

As for the Age of Strife stuff: I think the AOS has not been included in the 4+k background because it really doesn't matter what happened back then.

If you want to use the 4+k system to do post apoc battle, I don't see why you shouldn't. After all Warhammer has Warhammer historical. I just don't think there is any need to tie it into the 4+k background.

That said there is other games, such as Future Warriors (made by Grenadier I believe) that is a pretty good system (and was mercilessly ripped off by Necromunda).

It also featured miniatures with a post apoc feel to them, and neo Soviets in NBC gear sculpted by Mark Copplestone (previously of Citidel).

http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/range.php?range=FW

The Alien Hunters (Lets just call them Predators shall we?;)) used to have a clear plastic miniature to use when you activated the camouflage on them. The resin scenery is useful for 4+k as well.

You can find Future Warriors pdf's on the internet. I won't post links here though as I will get in trouble for file sharing.

malika
18-07-2010, 12:38
If you are interested in creating a post apocalyptic setting you might want to check these out too:

-Wastelander (http://trollsforge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=development): a game, background and models project set in a post-apocalyptic universe. It's still very much a work in progress!
-Invictonburg (http://trollsforge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=sciror&action=display&thread=1348), another post apocalyptic setting set in a hive city like structure. Made for Sciror which is based on Philip Sibbering's Dark Age of Technology (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_2_Dark_Age.shtml) material!

Malice313
18-07-2010, 12:59
If you are interested in creating a post apocalyptic setting you might want to check these out too:

-Wastelander (http://trollsforge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=development): a game, background and models project set in a post-apocalyptic universe. It's still very much a work in progress!
-Invictonburg (http://trollsforge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=sciror&action=display&thread=1348), another post apocalyptic setting set in a hive city like structure. Made for Sciror which is based on Philip Sibbering's Dark Age of Technology (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_2_Dark_Age.shtml) material!

Thanks malika, I'll check them out.

Also There was GW mad max inspired game Dark Future. It seemed alright, though it was 1:60 scale. Interestingly Car War changed to 1:60 scale towards the end. I think the re-release of it is still the same scale. I haven't bought any as my collection of original stuff is pretty comprehensive.

Future warriors is interesting as you lay down orders for your troops, then roll for initiative to see who goes first each turn

gloriousbattle
18-07-2010, 15:04
Me too, but I have to say that for something like this I wouldn't pick 40k to do it with.
I don't think there is a problem with using that setting for a game, it could make for quite a decent skirmish/roleplaying game (if you like post-apocalyptic rpgs) I think. I just don't think the setting you have chosen will bear much resemblance to 40k as we know it in general. Some of the same technologies might feature and a few selected bits of the cosmology will be relevant (Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle basically), but you wouldn't have any of the alien races or any of the imperial institutions we know from 40k.

So there is nothing wrong with the idea. It's just a completely different game/thing with some vague influence from 40k so you are pretty much going to have to develop anything you want for it from scratch.

Not necessarily. I think you could have proto-institutions, like a police force that might show the beginnings of the Adeptus Arbites, a spy network that could incorporate the beginnings of the Inquisition or Officio Assassinorum. Also, weren't the original space marines supposed to have been taken from the genes of some warrior tribe that the Emperor had adopted as his own?

It would have to be done skillfully, but I think you could cleverly explore the roots of the 40k universe.

gloriousbattle
18-07-2010, 15:05
So basically M25-M29? All based on Terra or also other planets?

Idaan (or was it Ikaan) was working on a similar project many many moons ago, it was also on Warseer, had quite a lot of interesting info about the factions of that time.

Thanks. I'll check that out.

gloriousbattle
18-07-2010, 15:09
I do remember it. I preferred Twilight 2000 for the post apocalyptic genre though.

They were definitely different takes on the same theme. I preferred Gamma World because of its more fanciful approach (Gaint intelligent mutated rabbits with rifles, for example) and I really just never enjoyed the GDW roleplaying systems.

Still, I know many people who swore by Twilight 2K and had a lot of fun with it.

abasio
18-07-2010, 15:47
You might find a bit of useful infor here http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80443 which has some places & people involved in the unification wars. Not much I'm afraid but it's something.

malika
18-07-2010, 16:33
Info on pre-unity Terra:
-Great Crusade forums thread (http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?showtopic=1336)
-Bolter and Chainsword thread (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=186334)

Malice313
18-07-2010, 17:02
...and I really just never enjoyed the GDW roleplaying systems.

Still, I know many people who swore by Twilight 2K and had a lot of fun with it.

The system was clunky I'll give you that!:(

Most of the time with RPG's its the setting and story that carry it rather than the rules though. I guess it was quite tangible as it was based on information gleaned from declassified for wargames run by NATO in the 60's.

Unfortunately it was based on an extremely erroneous scenario of conventional escalation and limited exchange with nuclear weapons that had been vastly superseded in the interim.

Kage2020
18-07-2010, 17:14
The later Twilight 2000 series, at least, wasn't too clunky, though. Well, comparatively speaking if you take a gander at the original 2300 AD system. :D Of course, preference in RPGs is always going vary. I know people that actually like the Dark Heresy system, for example. :D

:shifty:

<Runs!>

;)

Kage

Malice313
18-07-2010, 18:02
I know people that actually like the Dark Heresy system, for example. :D

I remember you saying elsewhere that you didn't like it. I don't mind it at all.

Its fairly true to the original WFRP. It doesn't have the emo/goth teen angst or xp curve of White Wolf. It has a hit location resolution simpler than FNFF yet more descriptive than D&D, and is way simpler than Phoenix Command. You don't need to roll every d6 you own for a basic task like Shadowrun. It has greater variables than SLA. Its turns get done in half the time it take a turn in Deadlands.

I really can't see what is not to like.:confused:

Kage2020
18-07-2010, 18:58
Oops... I thought the rest of the post conveyed the tongue-in-cheek nature of the earlier bits. My bad, though suffice to say that it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I would be more than willing to continue the discussion in a more appropriate venue (PM?) and leave this to get back to the thread on the Age of Stife... :D

Kage

gloriousbattle
18-07-2010, 22:58
You might find a bit of useful infor here http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80443 which has some places & people involved in the unification wars. Not much I'm afraid but it's something.



Info on pre-unity Terra:
-Great Crusade forums thread (http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?showtopic=1336)
-Bolter and Chainsword thread (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=186334)


Thanks much gents!

gloriousbattle
18-07-2010, 23:10
Oops... I thought the rest of the post conveyed the tongue-in-cheek nature of the earlier bits. My bad, though suffice to say that it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I would be more than willing to continue the discussion in a more appropriate venue (PM?) and leave this to get back to the thread on the Age of Stife... :D

Kage

Nah. Let's just continue with the hijacking. SInce it started out as my thread, I guess it's okay if I hijack it. ;)

Anyway, I am one of those who believes that a system should be simple, and an rpg that requires more than one side of one sheet of paper for a character sheet is broken by definition. YMMV.

The most fun I ever had in roleplaying was with the 40K wargame and the Orcs In Space article from Dragon magazine. This article is about seven pages long, and has simple rules to convert any version of 40K into a cheap and cheerful roleplaying game, with about the same complexity level as the Basic (old red box) version of D&D. If anyone wants a copy, PM me.

Malice313
19-07-2010, 05:29
Nah. Let's just continue with the hijacking. SInce it started out as my thread, I guess it's okay if I hijack it. ;)

Yeah Kage, don't get all coy on us now.


Anyway, I am one of those who believes that a system should be simple, and an rpg that requires more than one side of one sheet of paper for a character sheet is broken by definition.

I've never heard that view, but Phoenix Command requires only one page and it is without doubt the most needlessly complex game I've ever come across.

malika
19-07-2010, 17:11
So what is the plan with this? Making a post apocalyptic RPG game set on Age of Strife era Terra? Or would an existing system be used? Why not Dark Heresy?

gloriousbattle
19-07-2010, 21:20
So what is the plan with this? Making a post apocalyptic RPG game set on Age of Strife era Terra? Or would an existing system be used? Why not Dark Heresy?

I know people like Dark Heresy. I have run it, but it is my thirsd choice for a 40K (or 18K, or whatever ;) ) rpg. I would first do 40K + Orcs In Space, or Inquisitor.

Not that I hate DH, I just think it si a little too complex for what it does, but I would play it again.

Malice313
21-07-2010, 04:13
I think I posted the game previosuly as Future Warriors.

Its actually Kill Zone by Nick Lund.

http://www.mts.net/~gisby/kizo/kiki.htm

gloriousbattle
22-07-2010, 02:16
I think I posted the game previosuly as Future Warriors.

Its actually Kill Zone by Nick Lund.

http://www.mts.net/~gisby/kizo/kiki.htm

Thanks man!